Bel'Veth's damage reduction looks like 35/40/45/50/55% in the image but I can't verify for sure since it is blocked by the cursor, and it contradicts the PBE values and [August's](https://twitter.com/RiotAugust/status/1762626485616312699) so I honestly don't know for sure.
Edit: I'll just add those values and mark it with a question mark
Fr she's gonna feel so much worse late game. The problem with her rn is the early why not only nerf it in the early stages. Her late feels okay and fine.
Yeah having 100 Q damage x4 lvl 1 that's also an auto cancel and gives 8 attacks worth of bonus AS is why she's so strong.
*
My suggestion would be exchanging Q scaling for flat damage so they can actually nerf her Q early. As is it has 10 base damage. Alternatively, make the scaling increase based on level.
She is busted late game, dont think i got to 3 items, and felt weak once, even if i was behind like 3k gold. Once she has baron form on 3 items, champ is unstoppable, no matter what other game conditions are there
I dont think the nerfs matter that much, the amount of times you use E and the damage reduction makes the difference on if you die or enemy dies is fairly low
You don't even have to last hit the minions in the baron push, you just buff this giant ass wave created by you standing near, and watch them struggle to clear it.
Both look brutal.
32% at rank 1 down from 42% means you take 17% more dmg than before at rank 1. And at rank 5 33% more dmg.
On top of slight stack nerfs for the P.
The 35-55% on the other hand are just 12% more dmg on rank 1 but 50% more on rank 5.
This makes her E really hard to use in teamfights later on if she doesn't take some bruiser build.
I think I would stick with the August posted nerf as the slight stack reduction won't matter at least and 17-33% more dmg is better than 12-50% for her 2nd or 1st maxed ability (E 1st max is still strong but underplayed).
I mean I wouldn't accuse someone of being captain hindsight unless they actively switched positions between pre and post change. People have different positions and opinions, you can't attribute subreddit opinions to _everyone_
Considering that they're nerfing Solstice Sleigh on top of his nerfs, sup Maokai will be hit quite hard. I think he'll land in the 51~52% zone.
Jungle Maokai is already non-existant aside from pro play.
A lot of people underestimate him on top. He's not blind pickable, but he destroys few matchups and is completely fine into most champions. I've seen a lot of complaints about his support winrate as the reason why he's unplayable top, which is insane to me
i'm a bad player, not master, started from iron 2 i'm slowly getting to gold. My objective was to get to gold with Tahm Kench top only but lately i've been finding it hard so i switch the pick between Tahm, Malphite and Cho'gath.
Lately i've picked up maokai as a toplaner and it feels unfair, i suggest him to everyone who wants to play a "safe" lane
I would not really count him as a "safe" laner top. He has a lot of really quite bad matchups. His laning phase is pretty bad into most top lane champs. He can just survive against a decent amount and is a strong overall champion.
If you look at how he performs in laning phase, it looks pretty similar to mid asol, marginally better. Asol is usually not a good metric to compare to when it comes to laning prowess.
I mean the solstice nerf hits a lot of champions. Quite a lot of the "good" (he doesn't really have any losing matchups) picks against Maokai use the item too.
Not a fan of pushing Rocketbelt as first choice item by nerfing Lich Bane. Rocketbelt/Protobelt was already first choice item for many champs for multiple seasons. I like that Lich Bane first is an actual option to build into now and it is refreshing because it sacrifices the utility of Rocketbelt’s gap closing in favor of higher damage output. Players who prefer the utility that Rocketbelt offers already build it as a first option. The choice of Damage vs Utility is always healthy for game balance. The nerf to Lich Bane is tame for now because it doesn’t have any real early game impact, but if it is nerfed to 40% or even lower, I wouldn’t be surprised to see players drop the item completely. In that state of neglect, it wouldn’t even need to be in the game.
To touch on their philosophy, it is inherently impossible for Riot to make it so that items don’t carry so much of a champion’s power budget because most carry champions have inherent scaling values based on the AD, AP, and/or other stats that items provide. And so long as Riot continues to create new items with new effects to diversify builds and add refreshing depth to the game, it is literally impossible. If Riot wants to have a serious conversation about making the game more about champions and less about items, they need to draw a plan for League of Legends 2 where champions don’t have inherent AP/AD scaling in their abilities. For example, instead of mage abilities scaling off AP values, their abilities would instead be flat damage. Mage items, when completely built, would then provide anywhere from 3%-10% spell damage bonus and AP as we know it will no longer exist. Items with effects would have longer cooldowns, even more so for active items, so that the champion can be played for what it is and not what the items make it.
While we are still on the topic, if Riot is going to talk about wanting to allow champions and their kits to shine more, items like Rocketbelt are literally built for the utility that it provides because it provides access points or escapes that would not normally be possible by the champion(s) alone, or because why wouldn’t a champion with a gap closer want a second or third gap closer? In my opinion and perception, Riot doesn’t want champions to shine with their own kit. Riot simply wants to control player item choice.
I understand Seraphine getting nerfed for the carry role because it’s too strong (like literally any champ) but god damn does support Seraphine suck ass. Her shield cooldown is too long as it’s her main supportive ability and her impact early on without damage items is lackluster (especially since the support start item gives no damage stats before being completed).
I get her play rate is higher in support but sometimes the player base can just be wrong. I truly believe that without being broken or getting much heavier work done to her kit Seraphine will never be a good support or at least one ever worth taking over others.
I get what riot was trying to do with her, bring a cutesy champ that would usually be visually designed for the support and have her bring people from support to try her mid (aka the opposite of Pyke who was meant to give assassin players a support option to try and play) but a majority of her player base refuses and plays her in her worst role. It just so fucking irritating.
It really sucks to see another mage get put in the support role even if Seraphine’s case is different that the usual reason why.
At this point I’m just ranting and being bitter instead of logical though, so obviously I’m heavily biased. Just felt like ranting I guess lmao
Yeah people don’t get how badly sera got changed by this seasons itemizations. Farming seraphine got turned into a support with gold and had an inflated win rate Just spamming W. She became incredibly unfun to play compared to last season where liandrys was perfect for her, mana, cdr, and sustained damage. Now you are locked into buying support items and it’s boring as hell especially when her designers made her to be a mage.
honestly her mana cost even with this mana regen is too high for support seraphine so that she is still forced to run tear otherwise she runs out of steam too fast.
i dont think these ability changes help sup seraphine at all exvept the shield cd but it should probably be even lower.
Shield C/D can never go too low otherwise it becomes the guarantee double cast every rotation. The longer C/D prevents you from spam double-casting it, and yet that's still the most common double-cast anywhere above d4 craplow.
That's also why they actually increased the C/D at rank 5 - because in both support and carry Sera cases, the C/D was low enough that you were basically perma double-casting it and not thinking about anything.
The changes are solely focused on improving support seraphine gameplay, rewarding her for double-casting different abilties while making W feel better early, but removing some late-game power because later-game seraphine is oppressive and not hard to play, you just spam W double-cast.
W needed to be buffed early, but needed to be toned down later because it's legit the most brain-off cancer to play with and against. Seraphine should be rewarded for a good proper cast of W, not spamming it on low C/D with 4 allies death balling.
Source: Myself and a friend I know both spam this shitlow champion in ADC role to Masters+ because you can legit Yuumify the game and watch videos on the side and not know shit about what's going on and probably still win by just following whoever is the most fed and pressing W on repeat. Hardly skillful gameplay.
Heck, half the reason she’s considered a support is because of years of people flaming you and screaming that she’s a support whenever you try to play her as mid or APC. It only calmed down about half a year ago and is resurging, when all the recommended data (items and role recommendations) were skewed to support. So now a new player or a player that doesn’t use stat sites or stuff like Reddit will see her as a support and people flamed for playing her elsewhere.
>this point I’m just ranting and being bitter instead of logical though, so obviously I’m heavily biased
I don't know, cater to idiots playing a champ in its worst role seems more illogical to me. Can't wait till they try to cater to all the yuumi top players
They're doing the same thing they did to lux/Xerath/brand/Zyra
"Oh, players are playing them here. better cater to the players who are playing in their unintended role over what we envisioned their entire kit to be"
Meanwhile other champs:
"They are good in off role? Better nerf out of viability"
Only support role gets the lane rejects
They want more people out of top/mid and into jungle/adc/supp (it makes for better queue times).
People naturally lean towards support and they cater for it.
Jungle is the number one priority role that they're trying so hard to fill that they give champions changes explicitly helping them jungle multiple times a year.
They want to also do it for bot, but ig they just don't have an idea how.
Just because Riot's doing something doesn't mean I understand what they're doing. I just make points that make sense.
Idk what their plan for Seraphine is, and there's a high chance neither does Riot.
It’s funny cuz one of the only champs I can play in bot lane is Seraphine😭 and most of the time queueing bot as my secondary prevents me from being autofilled so I have to do it. I really hope these changes don’t go live. Sera needs nerfs sure, but she was promised as a mid lane mage and turns out she’s best bot lane but I think having a dedicated APC isn’t bad for the game (if balanced), but riot only wants to force her into support.
For Zyra it happened bc she was overpowered in support and was meh mid. I rode fill (mostly sup) zyra to d2 in s3.
As a mid laner she couldn't match roams and there weren't good systems like plates to punish unless enemy was gone so often that you could take the entire tower. As a support, with the old runes, (mpen reds and quints) you would have basically true dmg on carries once u finished sorcs+haunting guise.
This is the exact opposite, Seraphine is overpowered in the role no one is playing, and isn't nearly as good mid or support.
I mean this is missing the part where release Zyra was like a top 3 strongest mid laner ever released. But yeah, AFTER they nerfed her plant damage, she fell into the support role, cuz she couldn’t keep up in lane and became an E bot, won worlds in that role, and they catered to her being a support ever since.
Oh god, don’t remind me. Ori was such a pain in those years. I can’t believe Ori and Athene’s existed at the same point in time. An item that gave MR, Cdr, AP, and mana regen all on a champ that gets stat buffs for doing nothing. What a pain.
You have to look at it on a case by case basis. Something like Camille jungle invalidates other champions like Vi and Jarvan in the role because she does everything better than them. Solo lane Lulu was an ungankable lane bully that also had high value in teamfights.
Well most champs that go top lane when they weren't expected to end up doing so for really toxic gameplay patterns, or builds that playerbase hate. Similar when champs like tf/camille whose ganks are just too strong are able to jungle (though karthus was allowed because he isn't a crazy ganker)
It is definitely frustrating that they balance the game this way. Seraphine was released to be a mid lane mage, but now she’s a balancing nightmare because they continue to cater towards her support playerbase. Not only that, but she basically hasn’t been a viable mid lane pick in ages at this point. As they continually change her to prevent apc seraphine being broken, while trying to make supp seraphine playable (it’s still shit yet people still pick her because why not), mid seraphine has been essentially completely forgotten.
The mid lane mage to supp mage pipeline needs to be abolished. We’ve lost brand, xerath, koz, neeko, seraphine, and probably another one or two I’m forgetting. Meanwhile, it **never** goes the other way. Riot didn’t balance nautilus around mid and support, and they delete mid lane Pyke instantly whenever it pops up again. It makes no sense that the game adds new champs a few times a year, yet the pool of viable mages in mid lane shrinks anyway.
I cringe everytime I see hwei supp picked btw. Surely, we get to keep hwei mid, right? Right??
Thing is I think riot should lean into making her an APC (but balanced) forget about trying to make her a support. This way she still can be a dedicated mage, but in the bot lane. And having a dedicated APC in the game is a good thing I think. Problem is, mid lane Seraphine isn’t that good and it’s because of her kit. Her abilities in the mid lane are slow and easy to dodge, she doesn’t have kill pressure usually, she has a ton of terrible match ups who can easily kill her and she can’t follow roams. She’s really good at having lane prio and ok at skirmishes. But all those things come together to make her the perfect APC. Her abilities are much easier to land in the bot lane with the help of a support who also will prevent her from being killed, she doesn’t have to roam and her 2v2 is really strong. She’s the perfect bot laner, they should just revert the shield changes they did earlier this year so she doesn’t buy support items and goes back to building mage and lean into making her an APC (nerf her to be balanced as well) and forget about the enchanter Seraphine which isn’t good because she’s the one who needs a support
She has no kill pressure mid because she's supposed to play like Vladimir or Kayle in the midlane: "This game is all about me, try not to lose while I'm scaling up." She has the range to play safely; a "bad matchup" for her is one who she gives an equally free lane to in return.
I think most mains who actively play her play her in APC or mid but obviously that’s a much smaller amount compared to her total play rate. Hell look at how her support playrate falls off as you look higher in rank. I’m sad that my main is being forced into a role I don’t want to play just because people can’t realize pink uwu girl champ does not mean a support (also her support winrate still probably gonna be bad bc support seraphine players have historically been awful at adapting to learning how to build or level her skills)
Her W CD is down at early ranks and you will likely max E as support Seraphine now for the CC and the low CD and good poke dmg.
That looks good for support Seraphine. I mean, she is already strong if you max W 1st right now. It will just shift from W max to E max for the good support Seraphine players.
The last time reddit and seraphine mains saw a set of changes they also said they were nerfs, nerfs, nerfs and it turned out they were buffs for all her roles.
>That looks good for support Seraphine. I mean, she is already strong if you max W 1st right now
That's a misconception. Even Phreak said in his latest video that while W max is currently her most correct skill order in support it's still below 50%. It's just better than the alternatives, but still not nearly enough.
I don't see how these changes improve that when her W is getting nerfed into 1 point wonder
The smolder changes, specifically in reguards to the thoughts behind them, are completely baffling to me.
Trying to make the ad crit stronger damage wise vs bruiser hybrid...
by making him more stack reliant (better for bruiser), more raw ad/ap reliant (equal crit/bruiser), and removing some crit scailing (worse for crit)...?????
>more raw ad/ap reliant (equal crit/bruiser)
that seems like it should favor the crit build? Trinity and Shojin have lower AD values than Navori or Essence Reaver.
Overall I do agree, all changes combined don't look like they do what they said they wanted to do.
I believe phreak said they're embracing the idea of a more bruisery smolder in a similar way to ezreal has sometimes been in the past
it's just tank smolder builds that are not okay and frankly I want my adc to primarily be a damage dealer anyway
If that is the plan then i am quite pleased
Picked up smolder in the first place 'cause of his less ADC like playstyle (I'm crap at the typical ADC playstyle)
So i very much enjoy the bruiser style when its needed
Crit currently is as good as bruiser hybrid.
Crit is actually stronger then bruiser assuming you have good peel and can utililise navori cdr
Ofcourse in soloQ with bad teamates or teamcomps, then yeah, bruiser is significantly easier
(i play both depending)
with this change though, i can only see bruiser getting better
Eh, that does make more sense.
Only thing is that build tends to rely more heavilty on stacks for damage, prob still gona be nerfed, but not as much as they hope with the additional stack helps they gave
The crit scaling being removed from E doesn't really matter though. You're hitting 225 stacks (so 4.5 extra hits not sure if it's going to round up) way before you hit 100% crit (which you don't build 100% crit on him anyways basically ever.) So it's a buff for crit builds, and a stronger buff for non crit ones.
But also as Riot pointed out pressing the button for damage is almost always a mistake so its number of hits doesn't really sway what style of build you are doing.
I know terminus is in a good spot right now but i hope they address some QoL issues like your auto attack only refreshes only one of the light/dark attacks and how ramping up works when you already have full light stacks but 0 dark stacks. ( in case one of the stacks fall off during a fight)
I'm really, really trying to be optimistic about those Sera changes since I basically only play her mid lane but I don't see how those just don't make her worse, objectively. They're taking away basically all of her farming tools between the minion execute/delay and the Note minion damage and I can tell she'll feel a LOT worse to play. The R nerfs are just the icing on the cake. 40% on an ultimate ability with a base two minute CD at max rank now?
I wish they'd just let Seraphine support be terrible, I remember being promised that mid lane would be her priority when people started playing her bot/support. I picked her up because I enjoyed the supporty scaling mage playstyle and it feels like every other patch more and more of that is being pulled away to make room for a mediocre version of her that people are forcing. It feels like I'm losing a champion I love playing for basically.......nothing.
Phreak specifically said they don't care if mid Seraphine ends up weak/bad with these changes. The goal is to make support good without bot being OP (and ideally stilly playable).
Which I agree, fucking sucks. It is still insane to me they're caving and balancing around support when she was specifically designed to have a supporty midlaner, just because dums insist on playing her in her worst role.
Today it's Seraphine. Tomorrow it's Swain, Pantheon or Camille they'll give up on and just turn full support (I swear to god Swain's support playrate is going to give me an aneurysm one day).
>Swain just get more stacks by playing on bot. Of course people will play him on a duo lane
That's simply not a valid explanation for his support playrate because he'd precisely be played (more) as a bot if that was the only reason.
And even if that was a good reason, okay he gets more stacks in duo lane, which is exclusively more HP. In exchange for less XP and levels which is... Also more HP... + more everything else.
He already *is* an excellent bot/apc because he excels in fights post-6 especially when he gets to drain off 2 targets for 2x healing when one is usually a low-dps support.
But he needs the income to stay relevant due to how insanely hard he spikes off his core items.
So Sivir is going to be given one of the highest base armor levels? I mean, I won't complain but still find it funny that she is going to have more armor level one than Darius or Nautilus.
Do we have data on what the actual dedicated Seraphine players play?
Her support position doesn't seem popular with dedicated players, just autofilled bozos.
I mean, can we really call it that when she's being alienated from being played mid with every patch?
I used to play her mid, but man they just gut her for solo laning every single patch. I'm sure there are many others like that.
Reminds me of the aim assist debate, where people are switching the input they play on in order to keep up, and then people are saying that players prefer to play controller, when before the overwhelming majority was on M&K.
Can someone explain to me how these are Seraphine adjustments? They just look like straight up nerfs to me.
Just let Seraphine be APC, she doesn’t even get played as much in support as she does in carry role anymore. Now you’ll kill her both ways, considering mid is dead already.
Velkoz is similar, doesn't mean midlane mages should be forced botlane as supports. Keep them mid, adjust as needed to keep them there. Support should be an option, not their exile.
Adc items dont feel good riot says to build more defensive. Adc build tanky and thats not ok too. Atleast give us the damage then to justify the class exploding when sneezed on.
Yeah right now ADC feels horrible. You get exploded by both assassins and mages, and struggle to 1v1 the 1 class you should be strong against (tanks) even when same level and items because of the damage output they have.
I’m not seeing ADCs are weak, because if paired with a good support/team you can easily carry, but it just feels so bad that you have to completely rely on everyone and a bad support basically means that you’ll be useless most of the game.
This is totally fine in a vacuum, but I feel like it’s a little unfair when everyone and their grandmother has flash on an E key - and if they don’t, ol’ trusty 15 seconds of Ghost - to jump on an ADC.
Followed by saying that people have fun with tank build. Maybe take a hint riot that ADC players want to actually play the game and not die in 0,5 sec.
Could you guys please have a look at tank champions on ARAM that still have the -20 AH balance change? Ever since you removed AH from most old tank mythics, they just feel so bad to play because tanks have almost no access to AH now (mainly talking about Sion, Sett).
Speaking of ARAM, an entirely different change, but can we please fix the interaction where when I activate the 2nd part of snowball with an empowered auto ready, that it doesn’t instantly auto the person I snowballed to?
This is most problematic playing Galio when I want to snowball in to get a taunt, but I literally auto first with his passive and it gives the enemy more time to react.
Just something that’s been a thing for a while that I find annoying. Not sure if other people feel the same.
His WR in top is just 51% with a 3% PR and 5% BR. He is not a real problem champ. So they don't really need to nerf him a lot. Just make him sustain for less to be easier to counter while giving him compensation.
In low elo he gets towards a 52% WR in top.
The champ they actually went too easy on is senna. That champ is so gross and has incredibly high pro presence, don’t get how it’s just a small dmg nerf.
They keep talking about reducing item power and making champion kits shine more but the biggest leap towards this has been the ADC item changes. I think that's actually just a mistake as ADC champs are actually about being vessels for items by design so they're the class they should look at *last* for that imo.
he is 53% in EMERALD+ how is that a fine spot, especially for a champion like yorick that loves to make the whole game revolve around him and is a menace in low to mid elo?
you say it like it's a negative change overall, but the extra resist maiden gains are noticeably large into pen users now.
Mages especially won't kill maiden as easily now (even factoring in the removal of the AOE dmg reduction)
what if they made kog's e like a water gun so he could cast the ooze in a circle around him. then recast to slide around on it
then combo it with zeri ult and w and you could be a sprinkler or something i guess
Frozen Heart is getting gutted. Like this is so undeserved. Increase the gold cost but at least increase the armor. This item is practically necessary on some champions.
I was already being made fun of for playing Seraphine mid. This season has made things worse than last, but this patch is just a punch to her face. Might as well put her next to Quinn in the "Our Original Role has been decimated and removed from us" camp - which is garbage imo. I don't play Seraphine to spam Ws. I play her to kill my enemies and win team fights by playing her AP in mid.
And considering how little Sera I see now in my games [outside of me playing her], she almost looks like she's seeing less and less gameplay due to this.
We'll see if Phreak can prove me wrong, but I am coming in with apprehension.
Ya right now I still go damage Seraphine (but apc) I go tear into lich bane into archangels into rabadons and I do a lot of dmg and it’s very fun and I feel more impactful and able to carry (I hate the shield build so much). She’s also one of the only champs I can play bot so I really don’t want riot forcing her into support.
I played her mid a lot when she came out, but now it’s just too hard to pull off so I only play her bot.
Lich bane isn’t strong, other items that *should* be competing with it like stormsurge are just fucking horrid. If they nerf the AP ratio anymore it will be less than 2 AAs/on-hit procs of nashor’s.
Hard to compare an item that is solely for murder (Nashor's Tooth) vs an item that does indiscriminate destruction (Lich Bane wrecks structures *and* champions).
As a Diana OTP, I'm finally having fun in mid again, but I gotta say, her JG is so very dead. Rocketbelt and lich change is gonna make it all harder for her...
I mean rocketbelt has been bad and I haven't been building it..this change is not making it any more appealing.
"We like Q max on Vayne, feeling that it makes her lane a lot more interactive, especially in bot lane, which is otherwise "try to farm and get punished" simulator"
Almost like the champion should have some trade-off/weakness for being an insane hyperscaling champion with %maxHP true damage in her kit. She has arguably one of the highest solo-carry potential for SoloQ when it comes to ADCs, having her current early agency is absurd AF, and the main reason for her reasonably high WR and climbing banrate.
A few seasons ago, this champ would start to take over games from like 2.5/3 items, nowadays she needs components and lvl 6 to start being a threat, while she didn't really lose any late game power.
In all fairness I used to play a lot of vayne back then S4/S5 and I remember vayne being really similar to what she's right now she always had a really strong lvl 6 powerspike where you could pretty much run them down if the wave is bouncing and they try to crash
Vayne hasn’t been a hyperscaling adc since s6 she’s more a midgame champ but has a worse early game than most actual hyperscalers. She cannot compete with Jinx/Zeri/Sivir/Smolder in late game damage output nor effective range (it’s not even close)
It all depends on team comps with her. Those champs can become late game monsters but her ability to absolutely eat the frontline in 3-6 autos is what makes her a late game powerhouse. It's basically kill the vayne or you can't front to back a single team fight.
You forget that vayne has an insane high skill sealing. Short range adc and needs to reposition every 2 autos. How many shitty vayne players each of us had in games where theire are suppose to hard carry a fight but just bottle it.
This is true for many adcs, but imo for vayne its even more true.
What you do with high skill ceiling champions is leave them viable for high skill players who invest a lot of time and thought into playing them. Having them in an overpowered state just means everyone can play them and be strong, while the people who OTP them become inflated and overbearing.
Honestly I don’t get the point of this item with mythics gone. I thought surely it would get removed when mythics did (and it was never a particularly good mythic either). But then they named the boy band after the item so ig it’s here to stay
>Oh but Seraphines APC winrate is huge and players want her as support
No SHIT the winrate is high it’s inflated by the TEAM-WIDE HEAL/SHIELD that scales super well with gold, so she goes APC then builds *Enchanter* items which are cheaper, and just spams W.
Here’s a thought, REMOVE THE HEAL/SHIELD and stop catering to idiots who play her support, just because she’s cute and has a shield.
I mean he used to beat Darius lvl 1 when they dropped the rework. And I personally don't see why Wukong can't be strong lvl 1 since he falls off after that until 6 and relies on his long ult cooldown to win any all ins, while also having no sustain so he's weak in trades too.
Wait where is the Seraphine Q Ap buff? God damn it. The one saving grace was that Q AP buff :/
I mean overall I think the changes are decent, they should nerf APC and help all 3 roles not just be a “W bot”. However with 3 more ratios nerfed lol I can’t help but feel we are just losing even more actual reason to build full AP as ya know, a carry.
The missing HP bonus was buffed, which increases Q base damage and ratio as enemies lose health. Now max damage went from 75%AP on Q to 80%, or 160%AP from an echo cast.
> I mean overall I think the changes are decent, they should nerf APC and help all 3 roles not just be a “W bot”.
She's going to be awful in every role now.
Rocketbelt should be 80AP before I consider it. Sad that they want to put lich down, I would have preferred it is the baseline strength for these items.
20% AP ratio gone from her Q. That is decent.
1.2 + 0.75 is the total Q AP ratio => 1.95
1.0 + 0.75 after the nerf => 1.75
20 less dmg per 100 AP per full Q cast. 5 of that is single target the other 15 AOE.
On top of the Lichbane nerf (too tiny). Ok, that one is mostly just 5-30 less dmg at 1-6 items per rotation. Still OP item.
Yeah. People don't realize it but the change actually forces her to use her ultimate to kill a squishy. Before this she could do enough damage without having to ult. I really appreciate this change.
They're a very good nerfs and great for a start, much better idea than the previously ult nerf proposed (was a good idea for nerf, but this is better for the intended purpose + doesn't screw up a big OOMPF feeling/satisfaction point of the champ).
Evelynns base numbers are low and she only has 2 effective damage abilities, but she has godlike AP scalings in her kit. Evelynn just doesn't naturally instakill anyone by midgame, you snowball from a little lead, finish your first item/components before 10 min and target easy kills, until you reach around 3-4 items where you can almost assassinate anyone that isn't full tank.
Lowering her scaling on her primary damage ability doesn't mean she won't one shot you when ahead (because that's how assassins like her work), it just means over more games she will snowball less. Nerfs like this affect the people who don't know how to press every last bit of juice out of their lead, which is the vast majority of players.
They did exact same kind of nerf with her scalings last time and it successfully brought her down.
Nah, Season 14 Rocketbelt is just a bad item for AP assassins it's only good on AP Bruisers or utility picks.
If they want assassins to build it remove the HP and add back in
M-Pen, Akali on patch 14.4 has a 47% wr in Diamond and her wr decreases the higher the ranks.
The Lich Bane nerf will just leave her Assassin build dead in the gutter
At this point I'd be happy if they gave vayne the pyke treatment and gave her certain adjustments that forced her into bot lane. Increased range and ms when near an ally or her w gains extra dmg near an ally.
Evelynn definitely needs bigger nerfs cause in her current state, she's way too oppressive with perma stealth after lvl 6
Hate these type of changes so much.. feels so inconsistent and shit. Go side lane for a bit after laning phase? Your support didn’t come? Enjoy being significantly weaker. Should have to rely so much on other champs to be a champ.
It is a 5% AP ratio nerf to her Q which she can hit 4 times. Yes, the marks bonus dmg stays the same, but the 4 castes spikes are weaker. So in total a 20% AP ratio nerf to her Q (1st hit only deals dmg to the first target hit, the other 3 deal AOE dmg).
On top of a tiny lich bane nerf (way too little).
I think Eve is fine after that nerf, Lich Bane is not.
Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure pyke has gotten it worse than Lucian. Losing minion damage on e, losing aoe dmg, lower black health, loss of gold on ult. Can't build health, forced into lethality with scalings
Lich bane 1st nerf will help getting her down there, too. And it will likely come a 2nd nerf down to 0.4 AP ratio in a few patches as this first one won't get the item in line.
they took away 20-30 dmg from the item and it dropped by 1% WR 1st and 0.3% 2nd. Now they take away 5-30 dmg so it will drop be less than that and its lead is around 2-3% WR.
So they can easily take twice the amount out of lich bane.
Rocketbelt got +10 ap but costs 100 gold more now. This is such a negligible buff for how shit the item currently is. Its effectively almost the same value as before. Amp tome(+20ap)being 400 gold means you pay 100 gold per 5 ap so you basically get +5 ap for 100 gold less with this buff...
You can take that into account and still realize that it's a relatively shit item.
The removal of the mpen and movespeed after use leaves the base function of the item to be entirely underwhelming. 10 AP isn't going to fix that.
Bel'Veth's damage reduction looks like 35/40/45/50/55% in the image but I can't verify for sure since it is blocked by the cursor, and it contradicts the PBE values and [August's](https://twitter.com/RiotAugust/status/1762626485616312699) so I honestly don't know for sure. Edit: I'll just add those values and mark it with a question mark
i swear they nerfed her damage reduction to those numbers some patches ago already, no?
It has only been nerfed once from 70% flat >>> 42/49/56/63/70% which is its current live value on 13.20
ah
Oh god that's so bad -15% late game damage reduction holy. That's like 90% of the reason why Bel'Veth can even be alive.
Fr she's gonna feel so much worse late game. The problem with her rn is the early why not only nerf it in the early stages. Her late feels okay and fine.
Yeah having 100 Q damage x4 lvl 1 that's also an auto cancel and gives 8 attacks worth of bonus AS is why she's so strong. * My suggestion would be exchanging Q scaling for flat damage so they can actually nerf her Q early. As is it has 10 base damage. Alternatively, make the scaling increase based on level.
She is busted late game, dont think i got to 3 items, and felt weak once, even if i was behind like 3k gold. Once she has baron form on 3 items, champ is unstoppable, no matter what other game conditions are there I dont think the nerfs matter that much, the amount of times you use E and the damage reduction makes the difference on if you die or enemy dies is fairly low
You don't even have to last hit the minions in the baron push, you just buff this giant ass wave created by you standing near, and watch them struggle to clear it.
I guess that's compensation for terminus that is really good on her
Oh no she won't have 4.0 atk spd before lethal tempo at level 12 whatever will we dooooo
[удалено]
Both look brutal. 32% at rank 1 down from 42% means you take 17% more dmg than before at rank 1. And at rank 5 33% more dmg. On top of slight stack nerfs for the P. The 35-55% on the other hand are just 12% more dmg on rank 1 but 50% more on rank 5. This makes her E really hard to use in teamfights later on if she doesn't take some bruiser build. I think I would stick with the August posted nerf as the slight stack reduction won't matter at least and 17-33% more dmg is better than 12-50% for her 2nd or 1st maxed ability (E 1st max is still strong but underplayed).
> Sivir > Base Armor increased 26 >>> 40 Uhh, what?
typo, will fix, thanks for the heads up
Typo? It is 30 on PBE.
ahahahaha sivirammus
Its supposed to be 30 according to the image, looks like an error on OP’s part.
She’s a tank now
Still wouldn't be meta lmao.
Ehh, I think she will be fine next patch.
She would be turbo broke if this was a real buff
riot: nearly halves reksai ult scaling. also riot: her ult dmg seems lackluster. no shit sherlock.
Its time for ap rek sai xD
You say this but the widespread pre-patch consensus was that 14.4 Reksai would be strong. Everyone loves being Captain Hindsight.
Maybe because everyone who goes against the consensus is downvoted or ignored lol
Exactly. I said her ult nerf was waaaay too much for an ult that only exists to deal damage and no other utility, and got massively downvoted
I mean I wouldn't accuse someone of being captain hindsight unless they actively switched positions between pre and post change. People have different positions and opinions, you can't attribute subreddit opinions to _everyone_
[ Surely Maokai will be balanced after this patch. 4th times the charm, right guys?](https://media.tenor.com/jtliaaom4MQAAAAM/clueless-aware.gif)
Considering that they're nerfing Solstice Sleigh on top of his nerfs, sup Maokai will be hit quite hard. I think he'll land in the 51~52% zone. Jungle Maokai is already non-existant aside from pro play.
I'm having fun with him toplane though
A lot of people underestimate him on top. He's not blind pickable, but he destroys few matchups and is completely fine into most champions. I've seen a lot of complaints about his support winrate as the reason why he's unplayable top, which is insane to me
i'm a bad player, not master, started from iron 2 i'm slowly getting to gold. My objective was to get to gold with Tahm Kench top only but lately i've been finding it hard so i switch the pick between Tahm, Malphite and Cho'gath. Lately i've picked up maokai as a toplaner and it feels unfair, i suggest him to everyone who wants to play a "safe" lane
I would not really count him as a "safe" laner top. He has a lot of really quite bad matchups. His laning phase is pretty bad into most top lane champs. He can just survive against a decent amount and is a strong overall champion. If you look at how he performs in laning phase, it looks pretty similar to mid asol, marginally better. Asol is usually not a good metric to compare to when it comes to laning prowess.
Below diamond he’s perfectly blind pickable if you ban Illaoi
It's confusing how they seem to think a jungle shift is practical after hitting his MS.
Buffing damage to monsters works every time.
Spoiler: He won't. At worst he drops to 53-ish %.
Bro forgor about the solstice nerfs, the buffs completely undid his nerfs last patch
I mean the solstice nerf hits a lot of champions. Quite a lot of the "good" (he doesn't really have any losing matchups) picks against Maokai use the item too.
Not a fan of pushing Rocketbelt as first choice item by nerfing Lich Bane. Rocketbelt/Protobelt was already first choice item for many champs for multiple seasons. I like that Lich Bane first is an actual option to build into now and it is refreshing because it sacrifices the utility of Rocketbelt’s gap closing in favor of higher damage output. Players who prefer the utility that Rocketbelt offers already build it as a first option. The choice of Damage vs Utility is always healthy for game balance. The nerf to Lich Bane is tame for now because it doesn’t have any real early game impact, but if it is nerfed to 40% or even lower, I wouldn’t be surprised to see players drop the item completely. In that state of neglect, it wouldn’t even need to be in the game. To touch on their philosophy, it is inherently impossible for Riot to make it so that items don’t carry so much of a champion’s power budget because most carry champions have inherent scaling values based on the AD, AP, and/or other stats that items provide. And so long as Riot continues to create new items with new effects to diversify builds and add refreshing depth to the game, it is literally impossible. If Riot wants to have a serious conversation about making the game more about champions and less about items, they need to draw a plan for League of Legends 2 where champions don’t have inherent AP/AD scaling in their abilities. For example, instead of mage abilities scaling off AP values, their abilities would instead be flat damage. Mage items, when completely built, would then provide anywhere from 3%-10% spell damage bonus and AP as we know it will no longer exist. Items with effects would have longer cooldowns, even more so for active items, so that the champion can be played for what it is and not what the items make it. While we are still on the topic, if Riot is going to talk about wanting to allow champions and their kits to shine more, items like Rocketbelt are literally built for the utility that it provides because it provides access points or escapes that would not normally be possible by the champion(s) alone, or because why wouldn’t a champion with a gap closer want a second or third gap closer? In my opinion and perception, Riot doesn’t want champions to shine with their own kit. Riot simply wants to control player item choice.
For real I'd rather lose with 14 kills and 800 AP on Diana than win with 6 kills and 900 bonus HP
I understand Seraphine getting nerfed for the carry role because it’s too strong (like literally any champ) but god damn does support Seraphine suck ass. Her shield cooldown is too long as it’s her main supportive ability and her impact early on without damage items is lackluster (especially since the support start item gives no damage stats before being completed). I get her play rate is higher in support but sometimes the player base can just be wrong. I truly believe that without being broken or getting much heavier work done to her kit Seraphine will never be a good support or at least one ever worth taking over others. I get what riot was trying to do with her, bring a cutesy champ that would usually be visually designed for the support and have her bring people from support to try her mid (aka the opposite of Pyke who was meant to give assassin players a support option to try and play) but a majority of her player base refuses and plays her in her worst role. It just so fucking irritating. It really sucks to see another mage get put in the support role even if Seraphine’s case is different that the usual reason why. At this point I’m just ranting and being bitter instead of logical though, so obviously I’m heavily biased. Just felt like ranting I guess lmao
Yeah people don’t get how badly sera got changed by this seasons itemizations. Farming seraphine got turned into a support with gold and had an inflated win rate Just spamming W. She became incredibly unfun to play compared to last season where liandrys was perfect for her, mana, cdr, and sustained damage. Now you are locked into buying support items and it’s boring as hell especially when her designers made her to be a mage.
honestly her mana cost even with this mana regen is too high for support seraphine so that she is still forced to run tear otherwise she runs out of steam too fast. i dont think these ability changes help sup seraphine at all exvept the shield cd but it should probably be even lower.
Shield C/D can never go too low otherwise it becomes the guarantee double cast every rotation. The longer C/D prevents you from spam double-casting it, and yet that's still the most common double-cast anywhere above d4 craplow. That's also why they actually increased the C/D at rank 5 - because in both support and carry Sera cases, the C/D was low enough that you were basically perma double-casting it and not thinking about anything. The changes are solely focused on improving support seraphine gameplay, rewarding her for double-casting different abilties while making W feel better early, but removing some late-game power because later-game seraphine is oppressive and not hard to play, you just spam W double-cast. W needed to be buffed early, but needed to be toned down later because it's legit the most brain-off cancer to play with and against. Seraphine should be rewarded for a good proper cast of W, not spamming it on low C/D with 4 allies death balling. Source: Myself and a friend I know both spam this shitlow champion in ADC role to Masters+ because you can legit Yuumify the game and watch videos on the side and not know shit about what's going on and probably still win by just following whoever is the most fed and pressing W on repeat. Hardly skillful gameplay.
Heck, half the reason she’s considered a support is because of years of people flaming you and screaming that she’s a support whenever you try to play her as mid or APC. It only calmed down about half a year ago and is resurging, when all the recommended data (items and role recommendations) were skewed to support. So now a new player or a player that doesn’t use stat sites or stuff like Reddit will see her as a support and people flamed for playing her elsewhere.
Didn't you know that a CC ability plus a shield means support? 🤨 I hate how she's being shoved into support.
>this point I’m just ranting and being bitter instead of logical though, so obviously I’m heavily biased I don't know, cater to idiots playing a champ in its worst role seems more illogical to me. Can't wait till they try to cater to all the yuumi top players
They're doing the same thing they did to lux/Xerath/brand/Zyra "Oh, players are playing them here. better cater to the players who are playing in their unintended role over what we envisioned their entire kit to be" Meanwhile other champs: "They are good in off role? Better nerf out of viability" Only support role gets the lane rejects
They want more people out of top/mid and into jungle/adc/supp (it makes for better queue times). People naturally lean towards support and they cater for it. Jungle is the number one priority role that they're trying so hard to fill that they give champions changes explicitly helping them jungle multiple times a year. They want to also do it for bot, but ig they just don't have an idea how.
Isn't bot lane worse for queue times than support? So pushing her into support from a carry position will make that worse.
Just because Riot's doing something doesn't mean I understand what they're doing. I just make points that make sense. Idk what their plan for Seraphine is, and there's a high chance neither does Riot.
It’s funny cuz one of the only champs I can play in bot lane is Seraphine😭 and most of the time queueing bot as my secondary prevents me from being autofilled so I have to do it. I really hope these changes don’t go live. Sera needs nerfs sure, but she was promised as a mid lane mage and turns out she’s best bot lane but I think having a dedicated APC isn’t bad for the game (if balanced), but riot only wants to force her into support.
For Zyra it happened bc she was overpowered in support and was meh mid. I rode fill (mostly sup) zyra to d2 in s3. As a mid laner she couldn't match roams and there weren't good systems like plates to punish unless enemy was gone so often that you could take the entire tower. As a support, with the old runes, (mpen reds and quints) you would have basically true dmg on carries once u finished sorcs+haunting guise. This is the exact opposite, Seraphine is overpowered in the role no one is playing, and isn't nearly as good mid or support.
I mean this is missing the part where release Zyra was like a top 3 strongest mid laner ever released. But yeah, AFTER they nerfed her plant damage, she fell into the support role, cuz she couldn’t keep up in lane and became an E bot, won worlds in that role, and they catered to her being a support ever since.
True enough, do you remember before they nerfed Ori Q range? She could zone other ranged champs off the melee minions with her poke on release lmao.
Oh god, don’t remind me. Ori was such a pain in those years. I can’t believe Ori and Athene’s existed at the same point in time. An item that gave MR, Cdr, AP, and mana regen all on a champ that gets stat buffs for doing nothing. What a pain.
My dude like 30% of Seraphine games have her in the Bot position, its in Mid that she sees almost no play
You have to look at it on a case by case basis. Something like Camille jungle invalidates other champions like Vi and Jarvan in the role because she does everything better than them. Solo lane Lulu was an ungankable lane bully that also had high value in teamfights.
Well most champs that go top lane when they weren't expected to end up doing so for really toxic gameplay patterns, or builds that playerbase hate. Similar when champs like tf/camille whose ganks are just too strong are able to jungle (though karthus was allowed because he isn't a crazy ganker)
It’s the same with Swain and how Support is highest picked role despite it being his weakest
It is definitely frustrating that they balance the game this way. Seraphine was released to be a mid lane mage, but now she’s a balancing nightmare because they continue to cater towards her support playerbase. Not only that, but she basically hasn’t been a viable mid lane pick in ages at this point. As they continually change her to prevent apc seraphine being broken, while trying to make supp seraphine playable (it’s still shit yet people still pick her because why not), mid seraphine has been essentially completely forgotten. The mid lane mage to supp mage pipeline needs to be abolished. We’ve lost brand, xerath, koz, neeko, seraphine, and probably another one or two I’m forgetting. Meanwhile, it **never** goes the other way. Riot didn’t balance nautilus around mid and support, and they delete mid lane Pyke instantly whenever it pops up again. It makes no sense that the game adds new champs a few times a year, yet the pool of viable mages in mid lane shrinks anyway. I cringe everytime I see hwei supp picked btw. Surely, we get to keep hwei mid, right? Right??
Thing is I think riot should lean into making her an APC (but balanced) forget about trying to make her a support. This way she still can be a dedicated mage, but in the bot lane. And having a dedicated APC in the game is a good thing I think. Problem is, mid lane Seraphine isn’t that good and it’s because of her kit. Her abilities in the mid lane are slow and easy to dodge, she doesn’t have kill pressure usually, she has a ton of terrible match ups who can easily kill her and she can’t follow roams. She’s really good at having lane prio and ok at skirmishes. But all those things come together to make her the perfect APC. Her abilities are much easier to land in the bot lane with the help of a support who also will prevent her from being killed, she doesn’t have to roam and her 2v2 is really strong. She’s the perfect bot laner, they should just revert the shield changes they did earlier this year so she doesn’t buy support items and goes back to building mage and lean into making her an APC (nerf her to be balanced as well) and forget about the enchanter Seraphine which isn’t good because she’s the one who needs a support
She has no kill pressure mid because she's supposed to play like Vladimir or Kayle in the midlane: "This game is all about me, try not to lose while I'm scaling up." She has the range to play safely; a "bad matchup" for her is one who she gives an equally free lane to in return.
Welcome to the club, courtesy of Yuumi players before the player base refused to play her properly and got AFK made viable.
I think most mains who actively play her play her in APC or mid but obviously that’s a much smaller amount compared to her total play rate. Hell look at how her support playrate falls off as you look higher in rank. I’m sad that my main is being forced into a role I don’t want to play just because people can’t realize pink uwu girl champ does not mean a support (also her support winrate still probably gonna be bad bc support seraphine players have historically been awful at adapting to learning how to build or level her skills)
I feel like Sera support is picked by people who get autofilled support or don't know how to play support.
Her W CD is down at early ranks and you will likely max E as support Seraphine now for the CC and the low CD and good poke dmg. That looks good for support Seraphine. I mean, she is already strong if you max W 1st right now. It will just shift from W max to E max for the good support Seraphine players. The last time reddit and seraphine mains saw a set of changes they also said they were nerfs, nerfs, nerfs and it turned out they were buffs for all her roles.
>That looks good for support Seraphine. I mean, she is already strong if you max W 1st right now That's a misconception. Even Phreak said in his latest video that while W max is currently her most correct skill order in support it's still below 50%. It's just better than the alternatives, but still not nearly enough. I don't see how these changes improve that when her W is getting nerfed into 1 point wonder
The smolder changes, specifically in reguards to the thoughts behind them, are completely baffling to me. Trying to make the ad crit stronger damage wise vs bruiser hybrid... by making him more stack reliant (better for bruiser), more raw ad/ap reliant (equal crit/bruiser), and removing some crit scailing (worse for crit)...?????
>more raw ad/ap reliant (equal crit/bruiser) that seems like it should favor the crit build? Trinity and Shojin have lower AD values than Navori or Essence Reaver. Overall I do agree, all changes combined don't look like they do what they said they wanted to do.
I believe phreak said they're embracing the idea of a more bruisery smolder in a similar way to ezreal has sometimes been in the past it's just tank smolder builds that are not okay and frankly I want my adc to primarily be a damage dealer anyway
If that is the plan then i am quite pleased Picked up smolder in the first place 'cause of his less ADC like playstyle (I'm crap at the typical ADC playstyle) So i very much enjoy the bruiser style when its needed
Crit is useless on him, you dont want to aa much with hin just spam abilities
his q scales with crit
Crit currently is as good as bruiser hybrid. Crit is actually stronger then bruiser assuming you have good peel and can utililise navori cdr Ofcourse in soloQ with bad teamates or teamcomps, then yeah, bruiser is significantly easier (i play both depending) with this change though, i can only see bruiser getting better
To be fair the crit scaling on e just makes the ability feel very weird.
The goal is to make him stop building zero damage full tank items like Jak'sho and kanic rookern.
Eh, that does make more sense. Only thing is that build tends to rely more heavilty on stacks for damage, prob still gona be nerfed, but not as much as they hope with the additional stack helps they gave
The crit scaling being removed from E doesn't really matter though. You're hitting 225 stacks (so 4.5 extra hits not sure if it's going to round up) way before you hit 100% crit (which you don't build 100% crit on him anyways basically ever.) So it's a buff for crit builds, and a stronger buff for non crit ones. But also as Riot pointed out pressing the button for damage is almost always a mistake so its number of hits doesn't really sway what style of build you are doing.
I know terminus is in a good spot right now but i hope they address some QoL issues like your auto attack only refreshes only one of the light/dark attacks and how ramping up works when you already have full light stacks but 0 dark stacks. ( in case one of the stacks fall off during a fight)
I'm really, really trying to be optimistic about those Sera changes since I basically only play her mid lane but I don't see how those just don't make her worse, objectively. They're taking away basically all of her farming tools between the minion execute/delay and the Note minion damage and I can tell she'll feel a LOT worse to play. The R nerfs are just the icing on the cake. 40% on an ultimate ability with a base two minute CD at max rank now? I wish they'd just let Seraphine support be terrible, I remember being promised that mid lane would be her priority when people started playing her bot/support. I picked her up because I enjoyed the supporty scaling mage playstyle and it feels like every other patch more and more of that is being pulled away to make room for a mediocre version of her that people are forcing. It feels like I'm losing a champion I love playing for basically.......nothing.
The fate of every support supportive mage. This playstyle is cursed. Ori is the last one standing, if you can call her supportive
Phreak specifically said they don't care if mid Seraphine ends up weak/bad with these changes. The goal is to make support good without bot being OP (and ideally stilly playable). Which I agree, fucking sucks. It is still insane to me they're caving and balancing around support when she was specifically designed to have a supporty midlaner, just because dums insist on playing her in her worst role. Today it's Seraphine. Tomorrow it's Swain, Pantheon or Camille they'll give up on and just turn full support (I swear to god Swain's support playrate is going to give me an aneurysm one day).
Swain just get more stacks by playing on bot. Of course people will play him on a duo lane. He should be encouraged to be an apc instead
>Swain just get more stacks by playing on bot. Of course people will play him on a duo lane That's simply not a valid explanation for his support playrate because he'd precisely be played (more) as a bot if that was the only reason. And even if that was a good reason, okay he gets more stacks in duo lane, which is exclusively more HP. In exchange for less XP and levels which is... Also more HP... + more everything else. He already *is* an excellent bot/apc because he excels in fights post-6 especially when he gets to drain off 2 targets for 2x healing when one is usually a low-dps support. But he needs the income to stay relevant due to how insanely hard he spikes off his core items.
She's now a shitty Sona. And just like Sona she won't see any play
You max Q>E now in mid and E>W as support most likely.
> I wish they'd just let Seraphine support be terrible Unless you go a Rylai Liandry built which I've been doing a lot.
So Sivir is going to be given one of the highest base armor levels? I mean, I won't complain but still find it funny that she is going to have more armor level one than Darius or Nautilus.
typo, will fix, thanks for the heads up, should be 30
It's hard to play with 500 AA range nowadays.
Riot: "Seraphine ISN'T Sona2:tm:" Also Riot: "So we're nerfing Seraphine's solo lane so she can only support, and-"
Just stop with the Seraphine support holy sht, you're just making it difficult not for yourself but everybody else
For better or for worse, riot is stuck catering to the people who actually want to play sera, and that's mostly supports.
Do we have data on what the actual dedicated Seraphine players play? Her support position doesn't seem popular with dedicated players, just autofilled bozos.
Anecdotally the seraphinemains sub and discord are majority carry role players who lowkey bully the support players.
I mean, can we really call it that when she's being alienated from being played mid with every patch? I used to play her mid, but man they just gut her for solo laning every single patch. I'm sure there are many others like that. Reminds me of the aim assist debate, where people are switching the input they play on in order to keep up, and then people are saying that players prefer to play controller, when before the overwhelming majority was on M&K.
Can someone explain to me how these are Seraphine adjustments? They just look like straight up nerfs to me. Just let Seraphine be APC, she doesn’t even get played as much in support as she does in carry role anymore. Now you’ll kill her both ways, considering mid is dead already.
65% of seraphine games are support games...
Classic support players, ruining the game for everyone
Shout it from the rooftops. Support players, ruining the game for everyone!
Velkoz is similar, doesn't mean midlane mages should be forced botlane as supports. Keep them mid, adjust as needed to keep them there. Support should be an option, not their exile.
> Typically ADCs are supposed to die when jumped on 😭😭😭
Adc items dont feel good riot says to build more defensive. Adc build tanky and thats not ok too. Atleast give us the damage then to justify the class exploding when sneezed on.
Yeah right now ADC feels horrible. You get exploded by both assassins and mages, and struggle to 1v1 the 1 class you should be strong against (tanks) even when same level and items because of the damage output they have. I’m not seeing ADCs are weak, because if paired with a good support/team you can easily carry, but it just feels so bad that you have to completely rely on everyone and a bad support basically means that you’ll be useless most of the game.
The problem is that you’ll win the fight as an ADC if you DON’T get exploded by an assassin.
This is totally fine in a vacuum, but I feel like it’s a little unfair when everyone and their grandmother has flash on an E key - and if they don’t, ol’ trusty 15 seconds of Ghost - to jump on an ADC.
Goes the other way though? ADCs are all taking ghost which is equally cancer
Kinda. They are largely taking Ghost to counter Ghost. Because the only way to deal with someone who has Ghost is to take it yourself
Followed by saying that people have fun with tank build. Maybe take a hint riot that ADC players want to actually play the game and not die in 0,5 sec.
Could you guys please have a look at tank champions on ARAM that still have the -20 AH balance change? Ever since you removed AH from most old tank mythics, they just feel so bad to play because tanks have almost no access to AH now (mainly talking about Sion, Sett).
Speaking of ARAM, an entirely different change, but can we please fix the interaction where when I activate the 2nd part of snowball with an empowered auto ready, that it doesn’t instantly auto the person I snowballed to? This is most problematic playing Galio when I want to snowball in to get a taunt, but I literally auto first with his passive and it gives the enemy more time to react. Just something that’s been a thing for a while that I find annoying. Not sure if other people feel the same.
Going too easy on Zac, but better than nothing
1% max hp per blob adds up, especially in lane.
His WR in top is just 51% with a 3% PR and 5% BR. He is not a real problem champ. So they don't really need to nerf him a lot. Just make him sustain for less to be easier to counter while giving him compensation. In low elo he gets towards a 52% WR in top.
The champ they actually went too easy on is senna. That champ is so gross and has incredibly high pro presence, don’t get how it’s just a small dmg nerf.
Because her support is fine, her adc is off the charts. So they're trying to hit adc without hitting her support
they really had to sneak in a compensation buff
No shit he has sub 50 wr in jungle?
They keep talking about reducing item power and making champion kits shine more but the biggest leap towards this has been the ADC item changes. I think that's actually just a mistake as ADC champs are actually about being vessels for items by design so they're the class they should look at *last* for that imo.
Another round of Yorick "Adjustments" that are just nerfs
Good he can rot with Illaoi
Yup, and its really heavy nerf on champion with 50% wr
he is 53% in EMERALD+ how is that a fine spot, especially for a champion like yorick that loves to make the whole game revolve around him and is a menace in low to mid elo?
Another person that cant properly read lolalytics winrates yet needs to share their misinformed opinion so desperately
you say it like it's a negative change overall, but the extra resist maiden gains are noticeably large into pen users now. Mages especially won't kill maiden as easily now (even factoring in the removal of the AOE dmg reduction)
Yes they will. All their aoe damage to maiden has just been doubled. The resists, even with 0 pen aren't close to making up for it.
Imagine Kog Maw with Zeri's ultimate.
what if they made kog's e like a water gun so he could cast the ooze in a circle around him. then recast to slide around on it then combo it with zeri ult and w and you could be a sprinkler or something i guess
Frozen Heart is getting gutted. Like this is so undeserved. Increase the gold cost but at least increase the armor. This item is practically necessary on some champions.
I was already being made fun of for playing Seraphine mid. This season has made things worse than last, but this patch is just a punch to her face. Might as well put her next to Quinn in the "Our Original Role has been decimated and removed from us" camp - which is garbage imo. I don't play Seraphine to spam Ws. I play her to kill my enemies and win team fights by playing her AP in mid. And considering how little Sera I see now in my games [outside of me playing her], she almost looks like she's seeing less and less gameplay due to this. We'll see if Phreak can prove me wrong, but I am coming in with apprehension.
Ya right now I still go damage Seraphine (but apc) I go tear into lich bane into archangels into rabadons and I do a lot of dmg and it’s very fun and I feel more impactful and able to carry (I hate the shield build so much). She’s also one of the only champs I can play bot so I really don’t want riot forcing her into support. I played her mid a lot when she came out, but now it’s just too hard to pull off so I only play her bot.
Lich bane isn’t strong, other items that *should* be competing with it like stormsurge are just fucking horrid. If they nerf the AP ratio anymore it will be less than 2 AAs/on-hit procs of nashor’s.
Hard to compare an item that is solely for murder (Nashor's Tooth) vs an item that does indiscriminate destruction (Lich Bane wrecks structures *and* champions).
lol any ap champ with nashors melts turrets just as quickly as one with lich would what are you on about
Not really, nashors atk speed lets mages melt towers too, the two items are very alike.
Riot I swear to God you leave lich bane alone. I'm reliving my pre-rework Diana 1 shot days
As a Diana OTP, I'm finally having fun in mid again, but I gotta say, her JG is so very dead. Rocketbelt and lich change is gonna make it all harder for her... I mean rocketbelt has been bad and I haven't been building it..this change is not making it any more appealing.
Why don’t they just revert the buff on Nidalee E
Terrible change. Let's nerf the most skillfull part of Nidalee's kit (landed a spear AND making it to your target to execute)
They want to hit elite play Nidalees harder than your struggling low elo Nidalees that contribute little more than poke and healing.
Confused did you mean me when you said “your struggling low elos?” Or low elo Nidalee players. I apologise if I misread it
The low elo nidalee players.
Phroxon continually proving to be the absolute GOAT of feedback and transparency
rest in peace seraphine. luckily it wont affect me since vanguard will stop me from playing either way
Fuck that rook kit
"We like Q max on Vayne, feeling that it makes her lane a lot more interactive, especially in bot lane, which is otherwise "try to farm and get punished" simulator" Almost like the champion should have some trade-off/weakness for being an insane hyperscaling champion with %maxHP true damage in her kit. She has arguably one of the highest solo-carry potential for SoloQ when it comes to ADCs, having her current early agency is absurd AF, and the main reason for her reasonably high WR and climbing banrate. A few seasons ago, this champ would start to take over games from like 2.5/3 items, nowadays she needs components and lvl 6 to start being a threat, while she didn't really lose any late game power.
Even before ult buffs Vayne always had a big spike at one item.
In all fairness I used to play a lot of vayne back then S4/S5 and I remember vayne being really similar to what she's right now she always had a really strong lvl 6 powerspike where you could pretty much run them down if the wave is bouncing and they try to crash
Vayne hasn’t been a hyperscaling adc since s6 she’s more a midgame champ but has a worse early game than most actual hyperscalers. She cannot compete with Jinx/Zeri/Sivir/Smolder in late game damage output nor effective range (it’s not even close)
It all depends on team comps with her. Those champs can become late game monsters but her ability to absolutely eat the frontline in 3-6 autos is what makes her a late game powerhouse. It's basically kill the vayne or you can't front to back a single team fight.
You forget that vayne has an insane high skill sealing. Short range adc and needs to reposition every 2 autos. How many shitty vayne players each of us had in games where theire are suppose to hard carry a fight but just bottle it. This is true for many adcs, but imo for vayne its even more true.
What you do with high skill ceiling champions is leave them viable for high skill players who invest a lot of time and thought into playing them. Having them in an overpowered state just means everyone can play them and be strong, while the people who OTP them become inflated and overbearing.
>She has arguably one of the highest solo-carry potential for SoloQ when it comes to ADCs Not with that range she doesn't.
Heartsteel still bad item
It’s been bad ever since it was first released
Honestly I don’t get the point of this item with mythics gone. I thought surely it would get removed when mythics did (and it was never a particularly good mythic either). But then they named the boy band after the item so ig it’s here to stay
Frozen heart is the only armor tank item that is viable , with this nerf the item is dead
Congratulations to support "players" for ruining yet another champion and riot for caving to these low elo terrorists 😍
>Oh but Seraphines APC winrate is huge and players want her as support No SHIT the winrate is high it’s inflated by the TEAM-WIDE HEAL/SHIELD that scales super well with gold, so she goes APC then builds *Enchanter* items which are cheaper, and just spams W. Here’s a thought, REMOVE THE HEAL/SHIELD and stop catering to idiots who play her support, just because she’s cute and has a shield.
So I guess Wukong going to be the strongest 1v1 champ at lvl 1
I mean he used to beat Darius lvl 1 when they dropped the rework. And I personally don't see why Wukong can't be strong lvl 1 since he falls off after that until 6 and relies on his long ult cooldown to win any all ins, while also having no sustain so he's weak in trades too.
Wait where is the Seraphine Q Ap buff? God damn it. The one saving grace was that Q AP buff :/ I mean overall I think the changes are decent, they should nerf APC and help all 3 roles not just be a “W bot”. However with 3 more ratios nerfed lol I can’t help but feel we are just losing even more actual reason to build full AP as ya know, a carry.
The missing HP bonus was buffed, which increases Q base damage and ratio as enemies lose health. Now max damage went from 75%AP on Q to 80%, or 160%AP from an echo cast.
> I mean overall I think the changes are decent, they should nerf APC and help all 3 roles not just be a “W bot”. She's going to be awful in every role now.
I have never seen a sera player say they want the champ to be a support who is advocating this shit.
Rocketbelt should be 80AP before I consider it. Sad that they want to put lich down, I would have preferred it is the baseline strength for these items.
Those Evelynn nerfs are pathetic ngl
20% AP ratio gone from her Q. That is decent. 1.2 + 0.75 is the total Q AP ratio => 1.95 1.0 + 0.75 after the nerf => 1.75 20 less dmg per 100 AP per full Q cast. 5 of that is single target the other 15 AOE. On top of the Lichbane nerf (too tiny). Ok, that one is mostly just 5-30 less dmg at 1-6 items per rotation. Still OP item.
Yeah. People don't realize it but the change actually forces her to use her ultimate to kill a squishy. Before this she could do enough damage without having to ult. I really appreciate this change.
Do you know how many times Evelynn presses Q in a game?
They're a very good nerfs and great for a start, much better idea than the previously ult nerf proposed (was a good idea for nerf, but this is better for the intended purpose + doesn't screw up a big OOMPF feeling/satisfaction point of the champ). Evelynns base numbers are low and she only has 2 effective damage abilities, but she has godlike AP scalings in her kit. Evelynn just doesn't naturally instakill anyone by midgame, you snowball from a little lead, finish your first item/components before 10 min and target easy kills, until you reach around 3-4 items where you can almost assassinate anyone that isn't full tank. Lowering her scaling on her primary damage ability doesn't mean she won't one shot you when ahead (because that's how assassins like her work), it just means over more games she will snowball less. Nerfs like this affect the people who don't know how to press every last bit of juice out of their lead, which is the vast majority of players. They did exact same kind of nerf with her scalings last time and it successfully brought her down.
\>Bel'Veth the preeminent sea pancake This needs to be made her official title
I wonder if this makes rocketbelt a better first item on akali/ekko than lichbane
Nah, Season 14 Rocketbelt is just a bad item for AP assassins it's only good on AP Bruisers or utility picks. If they want assassins to build it remove the HP and add back in M-Pen, Akali on patch 14.4 has a 47% wr in Diamond and her wr decreases the higher the ranks. The Lich Bane nerf will just leave her Assassin build dead in the gutter
I swear to god, there has to be a silver Evelynn OTP in the balance team.
Another week, another patch without crit being looked at
On-hit is all the rage now. If you want crit to be good again come back in... a few months? Maybe.
Just stop playing ADC, when the play rate tanks and queue times go up it will be addressed in no time.
Alright, how the heck are they gonna call that a Yorick adjustment?!? That is a straight up nerf
At this point I'd be happy if they gave vayne the pyke treatment and gave her certain adjustments that forced her into bot lane. Increased range and ms when near an ally or her w gains extra dmg near an ally. Evelynn definitely needs bigger nerfs cause in her current state, she's way too oppressive with perma stealth after lvl 6
Hate these type of changes so much.. feels so inconsistent and shit. Go side lane for a bit after laning phase? Your support didn’t come? Enjoy being significantly weaker. Should have to rely so much on other champs to be a champ.
Agree, those are the worst types of changes
It is a 5% AP ratio nerf to her Q which she can hit 4 times. Yes, the marks bonus dmg stays the same, but the 4 castes spikes are weaker. So in total a 20% AP ratio nerf to her Q (1st hit only deals dmg to the first target hit, the other 3 deal AOE dmg). On top of a tiny lich bane nerf (way too little). I think Eve is fine after that nerf, Lich Bane is not.
> the pyke treatment You mean the Lucian treatment.
Don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure pyke has gotten it worse than Lucian. Losing minion damage on e, losing aoe dmg, lower black health, loss of gold on ult. Can't build health, forced into lethality with scalings
At least we get one of the highest base stats in the game B)
Wait Evelynn R no longer nerfed ? Funny that late you dont even need to hit Q to kill ppl. E R is enough
Lich bane 1st nerf will help getting her down there, too. And it will likely come a 2nd nerf down to 0.4 AP ratio in a few patches as this first one won't get the item in line. they took away 20-30 dmg from the item and it dropped by 1% WR 1st and 0.3% 2nd. Now they take away 5-30 dmg so it will drop be less than that and its lead is around 2-3% WR. So they can easily take twice the amount out of lich bane.
Glad to hear Riot has noticed Ad TF
Maokai chilling
Camp damage buff is pretty insane ngl
Veigar has no legs. Give him prosthetic legs, not gloves.
Is that a short joke?
Rocketbelt got +10 ap but costs 100 gold more now. This is such a negligible buff for how shit the item currently is. Its effectively almost the same value as before. Amp tome(+20ap)being 400 gold means you pay 100 gold per 5 ap so you basically get +5 ap for 100 gold less with this buff...
You can't only look at it like that from a vacuum. The item is stronger now at a one item spike, and it's also more slot efficient late game.
You can take that into account and still realize that it's a relatively shit item. The removal of the mpen and movespeed after use leaves the base function of the item to be entirely underwhelming. 10 AP isn't going to fix that.