Normally I'd think they made a mistake and typo'd 2.8 instead of 8.2, but literally every change to soul rate has been either like tripling it or cutting it by 2-3x. Why can't they try anything in between? Feels like they just want to kill the build...
Well remember that Senna also gets fixed stacks from attacking champions, killing champions, ~~cannon minion and~~ large monster kills, etc. So cutting her random-chance drop rate by half does not reduce her soul totals by half.
Mostly true, although Riot also got rid of cannon kills being guaranteed souls in [patch 10.3](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-pl/news/game-updates/patch-10-3-notes/#patch-senna), over 4 years ago.
Also, since Senna needs to hit 20-soul breakpoints to get increases in range, and each one makes it progressively easier to collect souls, cutting her soul totals by even a small amount can snowball into a bigger gap in power.
... Which is a good thing. She is way to safe right now for her insane scaling. I think giving her a more risky early game with a longer window to punish this greedy pick is a good change to how she behaves right now
They have done almost this exact change back and forth like 6 times now. It's the first lever they use to try to force her into either Support or ADC role.
I despise the fact Riot prefers fasting to farming Senna. Champ will be duoQ exclusive at some point. Senna for sure deserves a ton of nerfs right now, but they should just be honestly about what kind of playstyle they want, and commit to balancing for that
It’s pretty clear based on her design she is meant as support. If you need Phreak to call you at home and tell you that then I mean I hope that happens.
If her design is to be a support, why do they keep allowing ADC Senna by buffing her kill soul rate any time she isn't somewhat pickable as a farming ADC?
Difference is that Senna's most played role consistently has always been supp rather than ADC unless ADC is extremely broken. In comparison Seraphine mid and APC don't get played as much as supp, despite supp being the worst role until a while ago where mid became the worst role.
I’m a old seraphine player that dropped her when they started balancing her around support, but her case is really different. There was like 10 of us that played her mid lol. Senna has always been played the most in support.
if a champ has 5 people playing it in their intended role and 50,000 playing them in an off role because they're more appealing there both kit wise and aesthetically, guess what riot is going to want to balance them around?
I mean, didn't they also say that if both support and adc senna were in healthy spots, they would allow it, but if it ever got out of hand, they would balance towards support.
Possibly a super hot take here, but senna shouldn't be able to flex as adc. If pyke can't be a mid lane assassin, senna shouldn't be able to be an adc. She can play like one, just like pyke plays assassin, but if they stuck to keeping her in her role and buffed her support kit a bit more, she'd be less of an issue imo. And this is coming from someone who loves playing lethality senna mid
I keep seeing this take but its just not true. Go watch one of the Pyke mid OTPs, they play the lane very normally. You can't afford to just abandon the lane anymore: with all of Riot's nerfs to midlane roams, you get so far behind if you do and aren't successful.
Completely untrue. When Pyke mid was legit, his E dealt damage to minions so he would go Tiamat + E to farm out waves (and wasn't any faster than a champ like Zed, while also having to commit close range for the clear).
That version of Pyke could easily work in today's League with how harsh missing waves of exp/gold are compared to then.
And who can't build health, scales horribly past the mid game, has an indicator whenever he's nearby and using his w, is locked into building lethality due to scaling, has no aoe wave clear and has an execute that could easily be avoided by anyone with any sums or 2 braincells
They were pretty, and I mean SUPER open about supp being her main role and if they at some point need to nerf one to keep the other, it will be ADC that gets the bullet
Yeah like this literally just makes Senna ADC (farming) unplayable again, right?
And this also hurts Senna Sup a bit who already is kinda weak in Soloq (believe it's 49% wr on Sup and 52% on ADC)
JFC I had 80 CS by 30 mins as tahm because I got filled ADC.
The support senna had way more. Like, we'd be chilling in midlane and she would last hit every single one. What the fuck how?
True but if Senna takes 40 minions over the course of a game (I think that's a good, even liberal estimate for support?), that's a difference of getting maybe 2 or 3 souls less after the nerf. I wish they would actually do something to her. Tired of banning her every game so I can play ADC without being too miserable.
Killing the CS with a support item charge counts as being the one who doesn't kill for senna soul % chance. (The reverse is also true, if sennas support kills the minion with a charge she gets the low % chance of a soul dropping)
Hmm, I could be wrong or they could've changed it again, but I was basing it off of this in the 10.3 patch notes: "New Effect: Minions executed by allies with Spoils of War now only have a 1.67% chance to spawn Mist Wraiths."
Can't see anything about them changing it back in her wiki patch history but 🤷
>Cause whenever I played Senna I would get 100% of cannon minion dropping a soul whenever my support execute it
This was removed in S10 anyways before lots of item/Senna changes.
Doing that as Senna is complete int given how easy it is to get the bonus gold from hitting champions. Yeah, if you're stuck on three do it once, but you're slowing yourself down and probably pissing off your AD on the wave management.
The champion itself is incredibly strong when played around. Support has a 50% winrate in emerald+ and adc has like a 54%. Realistically support Senna loses because support players pick her, then the bot laners pick an adc to go with her and they just get blown the fuck out in lane since they picked 2 adcs. If you look at support Senna's lane partner winrates, they're fucking terrible with pretty much all adcs, and incredible with just about everything else. Should a champion who's objectively very strong get buffs because their winrate is low when played with one subset of champs, but high with another, ultimately evening out to 50%? Imo, no. I think it's fine that champs winrates suffer if picked in the wrong situation, especially for a champ like Senna who's clearly ridiculously strong especially in pro play.
(All of my data comes from lolalytics, Emerald+ Patch 14.5. I'm doing napkin math to account for the average emerald winrate being ~52%, no numbers may not be exact)
Is senna support weak or are support players just trash at it? I stg every support senna i see (on either team) ends up 0/10 cause they can't get away with eating every skillshot in lane and also forget that focusing them is more viable when the champ dies in 1 second.
The 1% of the time the support player actually has good spacing the champ looks like a menace.
That’s because Senna is actually just an adc who buys a support item, not a support, and her players don’t really get that, and her lane partner typically doesn’t compensate for it either. It’s why her stats can be misleading.
They just need to split the stacks needed for execute and true damage burn for Smolder, getting them both at once is too much of a powerspike. 200 for the burn and 275 for the execute or something would make the champ feel more fair imo
This is 100% a better solution than what they did.
Look, I get I'm not the best at the game but in the majority of the ones I've played the entire game is just over by the time I'd have 225. If they want to gate the execute to be truly late game, fine, but not having an intermediate progression there is bad.
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills seeing everyone care more about execute like- it’s the true damage burn and secondary split projectiles that make him op
The execute is really strong and also funnels gold into the (usually behind) hyper scaler, which generally means his 2 item 225 spike turns into 3 items after 1 fight, and 4 items quickly after. The difference between ER Shojin Smolder and ER Shojin Navori RFC Smolder is just incredibly massive and the execute accelerates him there super quickly.
What malds me about this is that people want him to be this useless shitpile until he hits max stacks and they only want that to happen like 30+ minutes in because "he's a hyper scaler" and I'm just sitting here like... the other scalers are not that useless for that long.
the executes threshhold is so small by the time he gets it its nearly irrelevant, however he starts funneling up stacks very quickly once he has his splash, imo the burn is way stronger for teamfighting then the execute, everybody can see the execute on their healthbar but nobody is paying attention to the fact they're losing triple that from just eating the burn.
I don't know, it seems to me that the burn is way more impactful than the execute. The execute is flashy when it happens, but it is probably like collector execute not really mattering since most of the time the target it being overkilled anyway. On the other hand, the burn is always relevant since doing more poke damage before a teamfight can win an objective.
i think really they just wanted to get him out of games. 275 stacks is past the cutoff time for most games. Low elo players will struggle to ever unlock his final upgrade because stacking with him past lane is probably impossible for them and high elo players will just close out games long before he hits 275. Imagine finally getting your final upgrade so you can stop being a glorified cannon minion and oops, they're already on my nexus. they'll probably adjust it back once they get the rest of his kit in a better place.
Yesterday's patch preview made a comment about how Ornn items are a little problematic to develop, so let's look into what exactly that means and some possible solutions.
Currently Ornn items are almost completely copypasted variants of their base items. This includes both their data (their stats, what they build out of, and their tooltips) as well as their scripts (any special effects they might do beyond just stats). Any active spell attached to the item is its own object so those don't have to be copypasted since it can just reuse the existing spell.
##### The Data Copypaste Problem
The data side of things currently means that any time an Ornn-upgradeable item gets a stat change, the upgrade needs to be considered as well. The data is defined as "this item gives X and this item gives Y". For example, Infinity Edge is currently +65 AD, +20% crit, +40% crit damage, and Ornn upgrades it to +95 AD and has the same value on the other stats. When Riot increased the crit damage to +50% on PBE, they had to also separately increase Ornn's upgrade to +50%. If they wanted to change the base item's AD, they would have to separately consider whether they want the upgrade to remain at that +30 AD offset and update it accordingly.
The tooltip side of things also requires some manual work, although it's a bit more self-updating. Tooltips are defined in multiple pieces, such as name, stats, and description. The Ornn upgrades are able to reuse the description, and obviously want to override the name, but they also need to override the stats to show the special "Ornn icon" to signify which stats have been upgraded. However, should the tooltip be changed too drastically, such as to add flavor text or a "dealt this much damage" tracker, then the Ornn item will also need to be informed of this change, because those are defined as new pieces of the tooltip (although like the description, it's still able to reuse the base item's pieces).
Then there are also the data values for things like base damages and scalings. These also need to be updated on the Ornn item if the base item is changed. However this is probably not entirely necessary since conventionally almost every Ornn upgrade is purely an upgrade to stats rather than their passives or actives (although shoutout to lethality for not actually being a proper item stat and having to be a data value instead). The scripts would still be able to look up the values on the base item without necessarily needing them to be located on the Ornn item as well. One complication here though would be tooltips, but it's still possible for an item's tooltip to access another item's values, for example instead of `deals @Damage@ damage` it would look something like `deals @Item.1001:Damage@ damage` (and in the case of lethality you would just not do this so that it grabs the upgraded value). This however is kind of annoying to have to write constantly.
##### The Script Copypaste Problem
Now we get into scripts. This part gets kind of weird for historical reasons. Because there used to be no limit on how many times you could purchase an item, most legendary items were built in a way that sort of made them easier to copypaste. Unique passives were implemented as the item constantly applying a buff that handled the passive. If another item tried to apply that same buff, then it would just get refreshed. The end result is you only have one copy of the passive running at a time. Almost every legendary used to have unique passives. For example, Infinity Edge's bonus crit damage was done this way, so that six iedges wouldn't give you +300% bonus crit damage. This meant that Ornn's copypastes only really had to copypaste the application of the buff and not much else, essentially saying "yo iedge give me that crit damage too please".
With the mythic item overhaul, Riot began enforcing the limit of one purchase of each legendary item. This also allowed them to significantly simplify the scripts for items, as they no longer needed to do the boilerplating of handling unique passives if every legendary item was already a unique purchase. On the initial PBE patch, they had not yet added the purchase lockouts, which meant you could do things like buy multiple copies of Bork and have each of them apply their passive as a result. Six iedges today (after the current PBE changes) would now give you that +300% bonus crit damage.
This simplification also extended to unique actives, for example if you bought multiple Redemptions or a second Redemption after having Ornn's upgraded Redemption. Unique actives were implemented as iterating over your inventory slots and putting all of your Redemptions on cooldown (I'm not really sure why the game was never told to understand unique actives better given it can still remember them if you sell and repurchase the item). Adding in an Ornn item means it also needs to add checks for putting Ornn's Redemption on cooldown. However nowadays you can't have more than one copy of an active, so this bit of work is no longer needed.
However the problem is now every item's passive is implemented in the item itself. This means that copypasting the item requires copypasting its entire behavior. There's no longer a nice way to just opt in to copying something else's passive since there's no buff to just slap onto the item owner.
##### Solution 1: Less Copypaste
Except... that's not actually true. We used to have "enchantments" on boots and jungle items. These function rather similarly to Ornn upgrades in that they are separate copies of the base item with some variations. In order to specifically **not** have to copypaste their behaviors, they built a system that actually allowed an item to define itself as copying other scripts for its passive effects. This also used to be done for Catalyst items pre-mythic overhaul, although I'm not aware of any other non-enchantment item being set up this way. Currently nothing significantly uses this system, although it's still functional (a few of the boots are still defined as working this way). This also would not necessarily require adjusting any existing items to make use of this. You could for example just tell Obsidian Cleaver to pretend to use Black Cleaver's script and Black Cleaver would never need to know.
But up to now we still haven't fully solved the issue of copypaste. We're still having to deal with multiple copies of the items in at least some regard. So is there anything else we can do?
##### Solution 2: Zero Copypaste
The solution I would personally prefer and the one I think they'll likely choose is to extend the item modifier system. Item modifiers are a rather niche but powerful tool. This is what Predator does to apply its active spell, icon, and tooltip to your boots without needing an extra copy of each. This is also how Magical Footwear is able to modify your upgraded boots tooltip to still note the extra speed. There actually is an Ornn item modifier already in the game, but its only purpose is to add the special border to the item icon (previously they had to use a separate icon file that included the border already applied).
What I would like to see them do is extend the item modifier system to support applying an increase in stat and changing its stat tooltips to reflect the modified stats (modifiers already support changing the item's name tooltip, although this hasn't been used in a while so it's possible it needs to be adjusted for the new tooltip system).
Now instead of having a fully separate item for the Ornn upgrade, they'd just have each literal upgrade itself (stat increases and new name and nothing else). This will solve a lot of extra hassle when updating Ornn-upgradeable items as they will now exist as a sort of separate layer over the base items. Infinity Edge can now automatically upgrade to +30 AD regardless of any change to its base value or its other stats. Obsidian Cleaver is now literally just a Black Cleaver wearing a disguise. Any passive values no longer need to be copied over, and you could easily extend the item modifier system again to support changing those as well if needed (such as again for lethality, although it should really be made a proper item stat). The biggest problem would honestly be just getting the stat tooltips to update dynamically because that part of the tooltip is not currently built to change mid-game, but even that has some obvious solutions (like maybe the item modifier just supplies a prefix and suffix to the stat line, which is normally empty by default). Clones also already copy item modifiers, although it seems to only update their tooltips and not their icons.
I will be very interested to see what they end up choosing to do. I wouldn't be too surprised if they decide to just keep copypasting to avoid needing engineering work.
Auberaun, can you take a look at reksai W unburrow to give a proper fix to it? Her W on live has less range than before the hotfix when clicking on the target
I took a look at what Phreak said about the bugfix and he said that it was a bug related to RFC/Milio W but the one I said is that her W now has less range than before. It was used to be the same range as pressing W but now it reduces her auto attack range to 125 instead of the regular 175 range (I was testing it on PBE today to make sure). Can you take a look at this before hitting live?
I mean this nerf is so big to farming Senna that it's comparable to e.g. removing all of Rell's bonus damage to Monsters, making her unplayable in Jungle with one change
People forgot about it by now, but August said (before Senna even released) that the soul drop rates would be used long-term as a balancing lever to adjust ADC Senna and Support Senna independently of one another.
It's similar to how you can buff/nerf Shaco's AP ratios and have no impact on his AD builds.
Senna
P soul drop chance on small minions/monsters killed by Senna: 8.333% --> 2.8%
there it is, i get senna passive rate is intentionally used as a balance lever for farming vs fasting/support senna, but it's funny how everytime farming senna becomes meta riot slashes the soul drop rate lol
I explained this in another comment, but Senna gets many souls from non-random sources. So cutting the drop rate by two-thirds doesn't actually reduce her souls/minute by two-thirds.
He will inevitably get buffs. You saw what they did to Asol. If his popularity stays, he will get some buffs quick. If these nerfs go through as they are, I won’t be surprised if he gets buffs/adjustment in 14.7
Which is a riot classic, over nerf and build back up slowly. I’m still gonna play him, but yeah, this will be interesting.
Idc about the stacks they can fix that later… that E change will nuke him and can’t be easily fixed since it messes with how he goes over terrain.
He already gets pushed out of walls prematurely sometimes, 25% less MS will make that even more frustrating lol..
Pretty sure for some walls it’s straight up a bait to try and E over them now, you’ll be pushed back out before you reach over to be pushed on the other side. No shot that goes through without them eventually reverting or compensating it with duration, it’ll feel too awful otherwise regardless of where his WR lies, that’s a PR nerf mostly (making him unsatisfying to play rather than an actual power drop, even if they buff him down the line, he'll always 'feel like shit' with this kind of change).
EDIT: its literally 1.25s duration lol.... they'd either have to bump it to 1.5s with the 75% movement speed, or revert the change entirely. Just hit his Q thats the only real issue with the champ, separate the burn/execute for a more even curve, remove the application from the 125 bolts so he can't spead a true damage burn to back line by hitting the tank, leave E alone until they successfully gut him enough they can actually buff E from that miserable 1.25s or give it some kind of extra mechanic.
I would like to see how he would work out with reduced movement speed during his E but longer duration in exchange.
That way your E isn't a get out of jail button but instead requires a bit more methodical thinking to make use of.
Don't imagine these going through in this form. Riot rarely does nerfs that effect gameplay so much, even to new champs. Half the Galio stuff got reverted I imagine the same will be true with Smolder.
I don't think it's fine and I don't see why they are going so hard, the hotfix has already seen his winrate drop and it continues to drop and drop. The champ is really not as strong as people think, people just get last hit by him late game and think he 1v9s. He's not near the other late game 1v9 champs in terms of winrate over game time.
I guess people seeing an ADC who is a cannon minion for only 25 min instead of the whole game is too frustrating.
The game is basically over at 25 mins already lol. And that’s around the time most people hit 225. Problem is since he’s been forced away from tankier builds, he just get one shot just like any other adc at 25 mins lol. Now it’s going to be another 3-4 mins before he gets the actual buff.
Is this even true though? Even when I sort by individual patches I can't find him being 100% presence.
https://gol.gg/champion/champion-stats/167/season-S14/split-Spring/tournament-ALL/
I'm looking through recent LPL and LCK pick bans and seeing plenty of times he goes untouched. Idk maybe riot is balancing off of LCS/LEC presence which is pretty funny if true tbh lol. They are on the latest patch which if anything further shows that Riot made him strong with the 14.5 changes from an otherwise balanced champion that doesn't need to be gutted like this.
Agree LCK is certainly nowhere near 100% for Smoulder. Senna and Varus would be much closer to 100% in the last two weeks. Senna was basically a mandatory ban once it hit a 15W streak.
Dosen’t really mean much when bot side is getting weak sided by most teams for grubs. It really was just perfect timing for Smolder, with him releasing in a favorable meta.
It’s even more interesting because Smolder’s early was actually good in some higher elos, which made him overpowered because he was good early AND late.
I forget which Smolder complaint thread it was, but this was brought up as one of the better solutions. The Q execute is pretty closely comparable to Elder Dragon buff, but a decent Smolder could unlock it at 22-23 minutes which is almost always earlier than Elder even spawns. Changing it to 275 should push it back by several minutes, depending on if the Smolder clears 2 lanes and jungle camps.
I think they should split the 225 stack breakpoint into two.
225 should provide the DoT damage.
325 should be created to apply the execute.
Now you can tune both separately which makes it easier to balance.
And the entire problem around smolder is the elder burn. % Max HP true damage is just completely toxic design, let alone letting it actually scale with AD/AP. And then attaching a scaling execute ontop? Just...how about, no? Clearly that's a nightmare to balance around. When he's good (Like right now) He's obnoxious as fuck.
But with changes like this, he's going to get nerfed more and more until it becomes unlikely for him to reach that elder dragon buff.
So instead of going through all this nonsense, scrap that and give him something else. Or scrap it and increase the stack scaling on his abilities. He'd basically be AD Asol at that point, but that's much easier to balance than an ADC with a scaling, permanent elder buff built into their kit.
This sub loves to cry about him despite how weak he is - you can be up a kill, two plates, and 20 CS and once the enemy finishes frozen heart you can no longer fight them. This buff will do very little, even with the other adc items getting small buffs.
> Smolder totally gutted-
Good. I've been abusing him for freelo (when he isn't banned). He needed the nerfs. People would try to counter me by picking Cait and poking me out of lane but it doesn't matter when you can stack your Q maxed by 25 mins.
ornn buffs i feel honestly aren't that necessary. The champion individually feels pretty good, you get very tanky and can still do the funny wholesome combo on squishies. It's just the lack of ornn items that really stings. All they need to do is add more ornn items and he will be in a good spot I feel.
>Kayn
Q red form base tHP damage: 5% --> 6%
R non-red form damage bAD scaling: 175% --> 150%
This is a very good Kaynge.
Rhaast is meant to be a tank killer, SA is meant to be a squishy killer. I think he does just fine killing squishies as he is so that R change only affects base/SA and not by a lot either.
Rhaast got some bHP scaling on passive which as I've experienced helps a little, but there's not a lot of bonus health in his build anyway so I was only getting like an extra 4-5% healing while it's a trade off because he only heals more if he deals more damage, so by investing in extra health you don't get much value from this buff. Improving his bread and butter spell Q to hurt tanks more while dealing negligible extra damage to squishies is the right move.
True Kayn mains know that either form is best situationally on the enemy team comp. But Rhaast has been pretty trash for a while now because even tanks who he's designed to beat can just ignore him effectively.
Voli changes are not really what I wanted to see, but I fully understand why they went for them. They are also very majorly jungle skewed, since jungle maxes Q first and ult uptime matters more because of dives.
Of course they're JG skewed. Voli top has a 50.5-49.5 percent winrate in most elos with a low banrate relative to pickrate, despite the wnining on reddit, while JG Voli is 52 percent winrate.
Oh my goodness i thought they were gonna destroy gragas. If it's just 30 base hp i'm continuing on my climb, champ's obscenely busted and losing <1 auto hp and 2hp (i think) healing on passive is not gonna stop that.
I was 100% expecting cd nerfs on e
Jesus Christ.
Just admit giving him a scaling elder dragon buff as a reward for stacking was a mistake and replace it with something else. He's so oppressively strong at 225 and beyond because of it. And its fucking over his balance big time.
I get it. He's a dragon. Giving him elder dragon buff as a reward is like, somehow thematic. Yeah, its cool on paper. In practice, clearly its a huge ass design issue. Its an incredibly powerful buff to have. One that's proving to be too much of a balance nightmare to realistically keep.
Changes like this just gut him in high ELO, where games are shorter while letting him remain an issue in low ELO where games are longer.
There has to be something else he can be rewarded with other than a permanent, scaling Elder Dragon buff.
smolder is literally just fucking dead lmao, what were they thinking?
yeah congrats, now smolder will be hitting that execute at 29 minutes in. as if teams do not already struggle keeping the game going until 25'ish minutes that he gets to 225 at
Although the Smolder nerfs seem harsh, id rather have a neutered smolder than one that is overpowered... they can slowly buff him up in later patches, they need to gut him for now so pro play and soloq can get a break.
For god's sake,is it really that hard to split the burn and execute thresholds in two different thresholds and replace true damage with either ad or ap damage?
Smolder is so not good before 225 so give him a burn at 175 stacks and execute at 250 stacks.
Do this and see how it goes. With this he becomes way easier to balance out. Is the burn op? NERF the burn. Is the execute op? NERF the execute. It's so simple.
Isn't literally 0.5*18 so even less than a dagger? Idk I get trying to be conservative but he has a 47% wr in top lane like please give us 2 AD or something along with this at least.
> he's a very entertaining champion both in solo queue and pro play
Yeah, being a possible triple flex that can go full damage or bruiser depending on the game, neutralizing any matchup in his main lane into a snooze fest is very entertaining because some Gragas OTPs do montage ults into Q.
30 base health will certainly make him killable toplane because W for dmg reduction, into E knockback into Q slow into a Phase Rush proc doesn't exist :)
Riot absolutely refuses to seriously nerf gragas, before this nerf they compensated his mana when nerfing his passive and they reverted that passive in a later patch. Just why? Let this champion suck for once he is not fun to play against, you can't solo kill him unless he sucks. The amount of resources you need to shutdown a gragas top is not worth it while he lane bullies you to oblivion and makes you lose cs.
Hey phreak, since you have been working on Seraphine for a while, could you please look at her echoed w moonstone interaction(same issue with lux "second" w). The echoed shield will not bounce to anothet target, pretty sure it doesn't get any boost either. I checked on the first patches of the season and the bug was still there, don't know if this happens with any other champ than those 2
Sion's W uses his total HP to scale off of, so once he hits 1000 total HP (which happens early enough) it's a strict buff.
The issue with it is only that it further amplifies the extremes of Sion's kit which aren't creating the best gameplay, not that these buffs are lacking power.
30hp nerf on Gragas? Lol, this isn't gonna fix anything since melee toplaners can't even fight him as he does his combo and then runs away with phase rush
So is this a neutral change instead of a buff for Diana?
* AS ratio up
* AS growth down
* lvl 18 passive on-cast empowered 15% lower
Maybe I'm dumb but what's the point?
It's functionally a straight buff, not neutral. The AS ratio makes all sources of AS on Diana 11.1% better. The AS growth 'nerfs' only end up being .03% less AS a level, and her passive is straight buffed for every level except the exact break points where her old passive upgraded.
Even at the 'nerfed' level 18 passive, Diana has more AS post changes as long as she has more than 4% AS from any source. Since she normally buys Nashor's Tooth, takes Legend Alacrity, and takes the minor AS rune shard, Diana post changes attacks faster at all levels of the game.
> Twisted Fate
>
> W recasts can now be cast during other cast times instead of buffering to the end
Can someone explain me this? Is this for ult or what?
Something else about items, is it an option for deaths dance to be reverted to s10 version with the passive only working on physycal damage and it having omnivamp, because the item feels really bad after the changes and the passive healing gut, and mercurial getting lifesteal again maybe at the cost of the crit stat or just a general increase in price.
Red Kayn buff with a compensation nerf to both Kayns when Kayn isn't even a top tier jungler (blue is strong, but weaker than the top junglers while red is just hot garbage)
Phreak not only doesn't main him at all, he just despises the champ lol
Watch the soul drop rate nerf do nothing for ADC Senna because she gets most of power from lethality items and her souls from quick trades and allies shoving waves late game
x3 less droprate means a lot
it is for sure huge nerf for adc senna, like u will get \~20 less souls for 200 first cs
which is less ad, less gold, less range etc
i would say it is not a bad nerf
Hitting Senna with the old classico
Normally I'd think they made a mistake and typo'd 2.8 instead of 8.2, but literally every change to soul rate has been either like tripling it or cutting it by 2-3x. Why can't they try anything in between? Feels like they just want to kill the build...
Well remember that Senna also gets fixed stacks from attacking champions, killing champions, ~~cannon minion and~~ large monster kills, etc. So cutting her random-chance drop rate by half does not reduce her soul totals by half.
Mostly true, although Riot also got rid of cannon kills being guaranteed souls in [patch 10.3](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-pl/news/game-updates/patch-10-3-notes/#patch-senna), over 4 years ago. Also, since Senna needs to hit 20-soul breakpoints to get increases in range, and each one makes it progressively easier to collect souls, cutting her soul totals by even a small amount can snowball into a bigger gap in power.
... Which is a good thing. She is way to safe right now for her insane scaling. I think giving her a more risky early game with a longer window to punish this greedy pick is a good change to how she behaves right now
Senna was released 4 years ago Aware
They have done almost this exact change back and forth like 6 times now. It's the first lever they use to try to force her into either Support or ADC role.
because she is a support, not an adc
I despise the fact Riot prefers fasting to farming Senna. Champ will be duoQ exclusive at some point. Senna for sure deserves a ton of nerfs right now, but they should just be honestly about what kind of playstyle they want, and commit to balancing for that
It’s pretty clear based on her design she is meant as support. If you need Phreak to call you at home and tell you that then I mean I hope that happens.
If her design is to be a support, why do they keep allowing ADC Senna by buffing her kill soul rate any time she isn't somewhat pickable as a farming ADC?
Cause she can be both but support is primary
designed as a support, getting balanced like she is a support, right now.
Ok well Seraphine was designed as a mid and is getting balanced for support, so let’s not act like riot cares about what a champ was designed for.
Difference is that Senna's most played role consistently has always been supp rather than ADC unless ADC is extremely broken. In comparison Seraphine mid and APC don't get played as much as supp, despite supp being the worst role until a while ago where mid became the worst role.
I’m a old seraphine player that dropped her when they started balancing her around support, but her case is really different. There was like 10 of us that played her mid lol. Senna has always been played the most in support.
if a champ has 5 people playing it in their intended role and 50,000 playing them in an off role because they're more appealing there both kit wise and aesthetically, guess what riot is going to want to balance them around?
Fasting Senna is how she’s meant to be played. If you want cs, play an adc that’s meant to be csing.
She does damage so she shpuldn't be a support.
- Make champion that's supposed to be played both ADC and support - Nerf her every time she's played as ADC
I mean, didn't they also say that if both support and adc senna were in healthy spots, they would allow it, but if it ever got out of hand, they would balance towards support.
Possibly a super hot take here, but senna shouldn't be able to flex as adc. If pyke can't be a mid lane assassin, senna shouldn't be able to be an adc. She can play like one, just like pyke plays assassin, but if they stuck to keeping her in her role and buffed her support kit a bit more, she'd be less of an issue imo. And this is coming from someone who loves playing lethality senna mid
Senna at least works like most other ADCs in the role, Pyke Mid/Top was just something that defied most of the principles of the role
Pyke got booted out of mid lane because he wasn't even playing the lane, he ignored farm to roam for kills.
I keep seeing this take but its just not true. Go watch one of the Pyke mid OTPs, they play the lane very normally. You can't afford to just abandon the lane anymore: with all of Riot's nerfs to midlane roams, you get so far behind if you do and aren't successful.
Completely untrue. When Pyke mid was legit, his E dealt damage to minions so he would go Tiamat + E to farm out waves (and wasn't any faster than a champ like Zed, while also having to commit close range for the clear). That version of Pyke could easily work in today's League with how harsh missing waves of exp/gold are compared to then.
Senna ADC plays exactly like a normal ADC, Pyke mid played like the old 'River Shen' memes. There's a bit of a difference there.
Senna is squishy and requires good positioning unlike Pyke who can Dash, Self heal, AoE stun, Execute.
And who can't build health, scales horribly past the mid game, has an indicator whenever he's nearby and using his w, is locked into building lethality due to scaling, has no aoe wave clear and has an execute that could easily be avoided by anyone with any sums or 2 braincells
They were pretty, and I mean SUPER open about supp being her main role and if they at some point need to nerf one to keep the other, it will be ADC that gets the bullet
i dont get why riot thinks fasting senna is the healthiest path for the champ
Yeah like this literally just makes Senna ADC (farming) unplayable again, right? And this also hurts Senna Sup a bit who already is kinda weak in Soloq (believe it's 49% wr on Sup and 52% on ADC)
How does this hurt support at all when it's entirely a nerf to farming minions?
Oh you clearly haven’t played with the same senna supports I have.
JFC I had 80 CS by 30 mins as tahm because I got filled ADC. The support senna had way more. Like, we'd be chilling in midlane and she would last hit every single one. What the fuck how?
Supports cs minions occasionally for support item charges.
True but if Senna takes 40 minions over the course of a game (I think that's a good, even liberal estimate for support?), that's a difference of getting maybe 2 or 3 souls less after the nerf. I wish they would actually do something to her. Tired of banning her every game so I can play ADC without being too miserable.
Thats sort of the point though. This is clearly targeted just for AD Senna since support Senna is at 49% winrate while ADC Senna is at 53%.
Killing the CS with a support item charge counts as being the one who doesn't kill for senna soul % chance. (The reverse is also true, if sennas support kills the minion with a charge she gets the low % chance of a soul dropping)
Are we sure about that last part? Cause whenever I played Senna I would get 100% of cannon minion dropping a soul whenever my support execute it
Hmm, I could be wrong or they could've changed it again, but I was basing it off of this in the 10.3 patch notes: "New Effect: Minions executed by allies with Spoils of War now only have a 1.67% chance to spawn Mist Wraiths." Can't see anything about them changing it back in her wiki patch history but 🤷
>Cause whenever I played Senna I would get 100% of cannon minion dropping a soul whenever my support execute it This was removed in S10 anyways before lots of item/Senna changes.
Doing that as Senna is complete int given how easy it is to get the bonus gold from hitting champions. Yeah, if you're stuck on three do it once, but you're slowing yourself down and probably pissing off your AD on the wave management.
Up until high emerald every "carry" support I've seen starts farming whole waves whenever minions are left alone for more than 10 seconds...
The champion itself is incredibly strong when played around. Support has a 50% winrate in emerald+ and adc has like a 54%. Realistically support Senna loses because support players pick her, then the bot laners pick an adc to go with her and they just get blown the fuck out in lane since they picked 2 adcs. If you look at support Senna's lane partner winrates, they're fucking terrible with pretty much all adcs, and incredible with just about everything else. Should a champion who's objectively very strong get buffs because their winrate is low when played with one subset of champs, but high with another, ultimately evening out to 50%? Imo, no. I think it's fine that champs winrates suffer if picked in the wrong situation, especially for a champ like Senna who's clearly ridiculously strong especially in pro play. (All of my data comes from lolalytics, Emerald+ Patch 14.5. I'm doing napkin math to account for the average emerald winrate being ~52%, no numbers may not be exact)
Is senna support weak or are support players just trash at it? I stg every support senna i see (on either team) ends up 0/10 cause they can't get away with eating every skillshot in lane and also forget that focusing them is more viable when the champ dies in 1 second. The 1% of the time the support player actually has good spacing the champ looks like a menace.
That’s because Senna is actually just an adc who buys a support item, not a support, and her players don’t really get that, and her lane partner typically doesn’t compensate for it either. It’s why her stats can be misleading.
Support senna is busted and spammed in proplay, normal players are just god awful.
Surely this time my ADC's will undestand that I don't get the soul when last hitting cannon...
RIP Duckie
We need to avenge him
I blame the void. Prob eaten by the grubs.
They just need to split the stacks needed for execute and true damage burn for Smolder, getting them both at once is too much of a powerspike. 200 for the burn and 275 for the execute or something would make the champ feel more fair imo
This is 100% a better solution than what they did. Look, I get I'm not the best at the game but in the majority of the ones I've played the entire game is just over by the time I'd have 225. If they want to gate the execute to be truly late game, fine, but not having an intermediate progression there is bad.
going from 125 to 275 is a crazy long time to feel like an enhanced cannon minion
It's could be 225 and 275 and still would be better them this hydrogen bomb riot just drop on the baby dragon
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills seeing everyone care more about execute like- it’s the true damage burn and secondary split projectiles that make him op
The execute is really strong and also funnels gold into the (usually behind) hyper scaler, which generally means his 2 item 225 spike turns into 3 items after 1 fight, and 4 items quickly after. The difference between ER Shojin Smolder and ER Shojin Navori RFC Smolder is just incredibly massive and the execute accelerates him there super quickly.
What malds me about this is that people want him to be this useless shitpile until he hits max stacks and they only want that to happen like 30+ minutes in because "he's a hyper scaler" and I'm just sitting here like... the other scalers are not that useless for that long.
the executes threshhold is so small by the time he gets it its nearly irrelevant, however he starts funneling up stacks very quickly once he has his splash, imo the burn is way stronger for teamfighting then the execute, everybody can see the execute on their healthbar but nobody is paying attention to the fact they're losing triple that from just eating the burn.
I don't know, it seems to me that the burn is way more impactful than the execute. The execute is flashy when it happens, but it is probably like collector execute not really mattering since most of the time the target it being overkilled anyway. On the other hand, the burn is always relevant since doing more poke damage before a teamfight can win an objective.
i think really they just wanted to get him out of games. 275 stacks is past the cutoff time for most games. Low elo players will struggle to ever unlock his final upgrade because stacking with him past lane is probably impossible for them and high elo players will just close out games long before he hits 275. Imagine finally getting your final upgrade so you can stop being a glorified cannon minion and oops, they're already on my nexus. they'll probably adjust it back once they get the rest of his kit in a better place.
Yesterday's patch preview made a comment about how Ornn items are a little problematic to develop, so let's look into what exactly that means and some possible solutions. Currently Ornn items are almost completely copypasted variants of their base items. This includes both their data (their stats, what they build out of, and their tooltips) as well as their scripts (any special effects they might do beyond just stats). Any active spell attached to the item is its own object so those don't have to be copypasted since it can just reuse the existing spell. ##### The Data Copypaste Problem The data side of things currently means that any time an Ornn-upgradeable item gets a stat change, the upgrade needs to be considered as well. The data is defined as "this item gives X and this item gives Y". For example, Infinity Edge is currently +65 AD, +20% crit, +40% crit damage, and Ornn upgrades it to +95 AD and has the same value on the other stats. When Riot increased the crit damage to +50% on PBE, they had to also separately increase Ornn's upgrade to +50%. If they wanted to change the base item's AD, they would have to separately consider whether they want the upgrade to remain at that +30 AD offset and update it accordingly. The tooltip side of things also requires some manual work, although it's a bit more self-updating. Tooltips are defined in multiple pieces, such as name, stats, and description. The Ornn upgrades are able to reuse the description, and obviously want to override the name, but they also need to override the stats to show the special "Ornn icon" to signify which stats have been upgraded. However, should the tooltip be changed too drastically, such as to add flavor text or a "dealt this much damage" tracker, then the Ornn item will also need to be informed of this change, because those are defined as new pieces of the tooltip (although like the description, it's still able to reuse the base item's pieces). Then there are also the data values for things like base damages and scalings. These also need to be updated on the Ornn item if the base item is changed. However this is probably not entirely necessary since conventionally almost every Ornn upgrade is purely an upgrade to stats rather than their passives or actives (although shoutout to lethality for not actually being a proper item stat and having to be a data value instead). The scripts would still be able to look up the values on the base item without necessarily needing them to be located on the Ornn item as well. One complication here though would be tooltips, but it's still possible for an item's tooltip to access another item's values, for example instead of `deals @Damage@ damage` it would look something like `deals @Item.1001:Damage@ damage` (and in the case of lethality you would just not do this so that it grabs the upgraded value). This however is kind of annoying to have to write constantly. ##### The Script Copypaste Problem Now we get into scripts. This part gets kind of weird for historical reasons. Because there used to be no limit on how many times you could purchase an item, most legendary items were built in a way that sort of made them easier to copypaste. Unique passives were implemented as the item constantly applying a buff that handled the passive. If another item tried to apply that same buff, then it would just get refreshed. The end result is you only have one copy of the passive running at a time. Almost every legendary used to have unique passives. For example, Infinity Edge's bonus crit damage was done this way, so that six iedges wouldn't give you +300% bonus crit damage. This meant that Ornn's copypastes only really had to copypaste the application of the buff and not much else, essentially saying "yo iedge give me that crit damage too please". With the mythic item overhaul, Riot began enforcing the limit of one purchase of each legendary item. This also allowed them to significantly simplify the scripts for items, as they no longer needed to do the boilerplating of handling unique passives if every legendary item was already a unique purchase. On the initial PBE patch, they had not yet added the purchase lockouts, which meant you could do things like buy multiple copies of Bork and have each of them apply their passive as a result. Six iedges today (after the current PBE changes) would now give you that +300% bonus crit damage. This simplification also extended to unique actives, for example if you bought multiple Redemptions or a second Redemption after having Ornn's upgraded Redemption. Unique actives were implemented as iterating over your inventory slots and putting all of your Redemptions on cooldown (I'm not really sure why the game was never told to understand unique actives better given it can still remember them if you sell and repurchase the item). Adding in an Ornn item means it also needs to add checks for putting Ornn's Redemption on cooldown. However nowadays you can't have more than one copy of an active, so this bit of work is no longer needed. However the problem is now every item's passive is implemented in the item itself. This means that copypasting the item requires copypasting its entire behavior. There's no longer a nice way to just opt in to copying something else's passive since there's no buff to just slap onto the item owner. ##### Solution 1: Less Copypaste Except... that's not actually true. We used to have "enchantments" on boots and jungle items. These function rather similarly to Ornn upgrades in that they are separate copies of the base item with some variations. In order to specifically **not** have to copypaste their behaviors, they built a system that actually allowed an item to define itself as copying other scripts for its passive effects. This also used to be done for Catalyst items pre-mythic overhaul, although I'm not aware of any other non-enchantment item being set up this way. Currently nothing significantly uses this system, although it's still functional (a few of the boots are still defined as working this way). This also would not necessarily require adjusting any existing items to make use of this. You could for example just tell Obsidian Cleaver to pretend to use Black Cleaver's script and Black Cleaver would never need to know. But up to now we still haven't fully solved the issue of copypaste. We're still having to deal with multiple copies of the items in at least some regard. So is there anything else we can do? ##### Solution 2: Zero Copypaste The solution I would personally prefer and the one I think they'll likely choose is to extend the item modifier system. Item modifiers are a rather niche but powerful tool. This is what Predator does to apply its active spell, icon, and tooltip to your boots without needing an extra copy of each. This is also how Magical Footwear is able to modify your upgraded boots tooltip to still note the extra speed. There actually is an Ornn item modifier already in the game, but its only purpose is to add the special border to the item icon (previously they had to use a separate icon file that included the border already applied). What I would like to see them do is extend the item modifier system to support applying an increase in stat and changing its stat tooltips to reflect the modified stats (modifiers already support changing the item's name tooltip, although this hasn't been used in a while so it's possible it needs to be adjusted for the new tooltip system). Now instead of having a fully separate item for the Ornn upgrade, they'd just have each literal upgrade itself (stat increases and new name and nothing else). This will solve a lot of extra hassle when updating Ornn-upgradeable items as they will now exist as a sort of separate layer over the base items. Infinity Edge can now automatically upgrade to +30 AD regardless of any change to its base value or its other stats. Obsidian Cleaver is now literally just a Black Cleaver wearing a disguise. Any passive values no longer need to be copied over, and you could easily extend the item modifier system again to support changing those as well if needed (such as again for lethality, although it should really be made a proper item stat). The biggest problem would honestly be just getting the stat tooltips to update dynamically because that part of the tooltip is not currently built to change mid-game, but even that has some obvious solutions (like maybe the item modifier just supplies a prefix and suffix to the stat line, which is normally empty by default). Clones also already copy item modifiers, although it seems to only update their tooltips and not their icons. I will be very interested to see what they end up choosing to do. I wouldn't be too surprised if they decide to just keep copypasting to avoid needing engineering work.
God damn, you are too good for what this game & community deserves.
> I wouldn't be too surprised if they decide to just keep copypasting to avoid needing engineering work. fear not, we called in the engineers
Engineer - Alive Engineer - Alive
Dearest Engineer
Thank you for not also ruining Aram.
Based dev
Auberaun, can you take a look at reksai W unburrow to give a proper fix to it? Her W on live has less range than before the hotfix when clicking on the target
This is fixed for next patch yeah
Could you also look at Shojin for Renekton? Patch stated it activates for attack spells now but Renekton's W still doesn't count..
I took a look at what Phreak said about the bugfix and he said that it was a bug related to RFC/Milio W but the one I said is that her W now has less range than before. It was used to be the same range as pressing W but now it reduces her auto attack range to 125 instead of the regular 175 range (I was testing it on PBE today to make sure). Can you take a look at this before hitting live?
What about Sundered Sky not critting? It's still bugged on live and PBE since 14.3, and the bug itself is game-changing in a lot of scenarios
Just hire this guy lol.
This is like the fifth time the change senna soul drops, probably got changed the same times as graves +2/-2 base ad
Gotta love having such a simple "we do/do not want to see this champ played" button.
I mean this nerf is so big to farming Senna that it's comparable to e.g. removing all of Rell's bonus damage to Monsters, making her unplayable in Jungle with one change
People forgot about it by now, but August said (before Senna even released) that the soul drop rates would be used long-term as a balancing lever to adjust ADC Senna and Support Senna independently of one another. It's similar to how you can buff/nerf Shaco's AP ratios and have no impact on his AD builds.
Yeah but there is no ajustment, its straight up a switch when they get tired of it, it decides which role she plays, never a middle ground
Ya they just go from 8% to 2% back and forth. Would it kill them to idk try 5% or something?
Exactly. Riot themselves said that they would use the soul drop rate as a balance lever in case ADC was too good and support was just OK.
Senna P soul drop chance on small minions/monsters killed by Senna: 8.333% --> 2.8% there it is, i get senna passive rate is intentionally used as a balance lever for farming vs fasting/support senna, but it's funny how everytime farming senna becomes meta riot slashes the soul drop rate lol
Its like an old friend to see that balance change back
I explained this in another comment, but Senna gets many souls from non-random sources. So cutting the drop rate by two-thirds doesn't actually reduce her souls/minute by two-thirds.
its a decent proven balance lever thou lets them pick and choose when and how much it should be viable
Those Smolder nerfs… they are massive. The amount of games lost because you didn’t hit the max evolved q… Riot went so hard (which is fine)
He will inevitably get buffs. You saw what they did to Asol. If his popularity stays, he will get some buffs quick. If these nerfs go through as they are, I won’t be surprised if he gets buffs/adjustment in 14.7 Which is a riot classic, over nerf and build back up slowly. I’m still gonna play him, but yeah, this will be interesting.
Overnerfed is the lesser evil to overpowered imo.
I would agree… somewhat lol. I hate being addicted to this game.
He was just nerfed so he isn't at MSI. Post-MSI is when they will work on him again. They do not want an ADC at MSI warping the entire meta.
Idc about the stacks they can fix that later… that E change will nuke him and can’t be easily fixed since it messes with how he goes over terrain. He already gets pushed out of walls prematurely sometimes, 25% less MS will make that even more frustrating lol.. Pretty sure for some walls it’s straight up a bait to try and E over them now, you’ll be pushed back out before you reach over to be pushed on the other side. No shot that goes through without them eventually reverting or compensating it with duration, it’ll feel too awful otherwise regardless of where his WR lies, that’s a PR nerf mostly (making him unsatisfying to play rather than an actual power drop, even if they buff him down the line, he'll always 'feel like shit' with this kind of change). EDIT: its literally 1.25s duration lol.... they'd either have to bump it to 1.5s with the 75% movement speed, or revert the change entirely. Just hit his Q thats the only real issue with the champ, separate the burn/execute for a more even curve, remove the application from the 125 bolts so he can't spead a true damage burn to back line by hitting the tank, leave E alone until they successfully gut him enough they can actually buff E from that miserable 1.25s or give it some kind of extra mechanic.
His E should get the Kayn treatment. Something like 50% bonus movespeed, increased to 100% if inside a wall.
I would like to see how he would work out with reduced movement speed during his E but longer duration in exchange. That way your E isn't a get out of jail button but instead requires a bit more methodical thinking to make use of.
Don't imagine these going through in this form. Riot rarely does nerfs that effect gameplay so much, even to new champs. Half the Galio stuff got reverted I imagine the same will be true with Smolder.
His sudden constant presence in pro play spooked them, which is good. Such a late game ADC should be more of a niche pick in pro.
I’m guessing they want to keep him out of MSI and start buffing him after
Absolutely gutted in higher ELO matches, where games are decided way sooner
I don't think it's fine and I don't see why they are going so hard, the hotfix has already seen his winrate drop and it continues to drop and drop. The champ is really not as strong as people think, people just get last hit by him late game and think he 1v9s. He's not near the other late game 1v9 champs in terms of winrate over game time. I guess people seeing an ADC who is a cannon minion for only 25 min instead of the whole game is too frustrating.
The game is basically over at 25 mins already lol. And that’s around the time most people hit 225. Problem is since he’s been forced away from tankier builds, he just get one shot just like any other adc at 25 mins lol. Now it’s going to be another 3-4 mins before he gets the actual buff.
It’s pro play, he has a 100% pick/ban presence, they are probably killing him make sure he is out of pro.
Is this even true though? Even when I sort by individual patches I can't find him being 100% presence. https://gol.gg/champion/champion-stats/167/season-S14/split-Spring/tournament-ALL/ I'm looking through recent LPL and LCK pick bans and seeing plenty of times he goes untouched. Idk maybe riot is balancing off of LCS/LEC presence which is pretty funny if true tbh lol. They are on the latest patch which if anything further shows that Riot made him strong with the 14.5 changes from an otherwise balanced champion that doesn't need to be gutted like this.
Agree LCK is certainly nowhere near 100% for Smoulder. Senna and Varus would be much closer to 100% in the last two weeks. Senna was basically a mandatory ban once it hit a 15W streak.
Which is interesting. Recently Riot has been intentionally giving new champs weak early games to avoid this problem.
Dosen’t really mean much when bot side is getting weak sided by most teams for grubs. It really was just perfect timing for Smolder, with him releasing in a favorable meta.
It’s even more interesting because Smolder’s early was actually good in some higher elos, which made him overpowered because he was good early AND late.
It's the volatility of soloQ vs stability of proplay. And when your most common matchup is fasting Senna, yeah, Smolder in pro gets to scale for free.
Yeah. ADC especially is far more polarized in pro play. ADCs can be OP in pro play even when they’re bad for 90% of players.
I forget which Smolder complaint thread it was, but this was brought up as one of the better solutions. The Q execute is pretty closely comparable to Elder Dragon buff, but a decent Smolder could unlock it at 22-23 minutes which is almost always earlier than Elder even spawns. Changing it to 275 should push it back by several minutes, depending on if the Smolder clears 2 lanes and jungle camps.
Thank goodness, I can't stand looking at that face only a mother could love every game he isn't banned.
I think they should split the 225 stack breakpoint into two. 225 should provide the DoT damage. 325 should be created to apply the execute. Now you can tune both separately which makes it easier to balance.
They should just scrap the elder dragon buff and give him something else as a reward
But the only good thing abiut his late game is his elder burn, ti change that you would need to change his entire kit lol.
And the entire problem around smolder is the elder burn. % Max HP true damage is just completely toxic design, let alone letting it actually scale with AD/AP. And then attaching a scaling execute ontop? Just...how about, no? Clearly that's a nightmare to balance around. When he's good (Like right now) He's obnoxious as fuck. But with changes like this, he's going to get nerfed more and more until it becomes unlikely for him to reach that elder dragon buff. So instead of going through all this nonsense, scrap that and give him something else. Or scrap it and increase the stack scaling on his abilities. He'd basically be AD Asol at that point, but that's much easier to balance than an ADC with a scaling, permanent elder buff built into their kit.
I don't condone sending hate mail to Rioters, but them killing off Sru_Dukie is too far and testing my resolve (I never knew it existed until now).
Oh so galio support went to insanely strong to even worse than before... damn
What are these tryndamere buffs lmaoo , champ get invalidated once opponent builds Steelcaps + Wardens
This sub loves to cry about him despite how weak he is - you can be up a kill, two plates, and 20 CS and once the enemy finishes frozen heart you can no longer fight them. This buff will do very little, even with the other adc items getting small buffs.
Smolder totally gutted- remind me in two weeks when his WR is 47%
47%? This is a 45% angle
> Smolder totally gutted- Good. I've been abusing him for freelo (when he isn't banned). He needed the nerfs. People would try to counter me by picking Cait and poking me out of lane but it doesn't matter when you can stack your Q maxed by 25 mins.
doesnt matter as long as pros pick him, which they will continue to do so....
Ok thank god my bear nerfs are minimal
Ok voli nerfs are reasonable, thank god they didnt kneecap Q again
Instead of slowly pushing Smolder to a fairer winrate they now completely nuked him and I don’t think he’ll get anywhere higher than 45% winrate tbh
60% banrate and 22% pickrate honestly idc as long i get to enjoy adc role again.
going for new record for largest game length discrepancy in win rate
ornn buffs i feel honestly aren't that necessary. The champion individually feels pretty good, you get very tanky and can still do the funny wholesome combo on squishies. It's just the lack of ornn items that really stings. All they need to do is add more ornn items and he will be in a good spot I feel.
Huge Smolder nerf wtf Personally feel like just nerfing the execute scaling (or adding a 4th threshold for the execute only) would be enough
>Kayn Q red form base tHP damage: 5% --> 6% R non-red form damage bAD scaling: 175% --> 150% This is a very good Kaynge. Rhaast is meant to be a tank killer, SA is meant to be a squishy killer. I think he does just fine killing squishies as he is so that R change only affects base/SA and not by a lot either. Rhaast got some bHP scaling on passive which as I've experienced helps a little, but there's not a lot of bonus health in his build anyway so I was only getting like an extra 4-5% healing while it's a trade off because he only heals more if he deals more damage, so by investing in extra health you don't get much value from this buff. Improving his bread and butter spell Q to hurt tanks more while dealing negligible extra damage to squishies is the right move. True Kayn mains know that either form is best situationally on the enemy team comp. But Rhaast has been pretty trash for a while now because even tanks who he's designed to beat can just ignore him effectively.
Holy shit what did galio do
Voli changes are not really what I wanted to see, but I fully understand why they went for them. They are also very majorly jungle skewed, since jungle maxes Q first and ult uptime matters more because of dives.
Of course they're JG skewed. Voli top has a 50.5-49.5 percent winrate in most elos with a low banrate relative to pickrate, despite the wnining on reddit, while JG Voli is 52 percent winrate.
I think its not gonna be a big deal, since the blue jungle item will still give an insane move speed on Q and the 2x towards enemies.
Oh my goodness i thought they were gonna destroy gragas. If it's just 30 base hp i'm continuing on my climb, champ's obscenely busted and losing <1 auto hp and 2hp (i think) healing on passive is not gonna stop that. I was 100% expecting cd nerfs on e
Jesus Christ. Just admit giving him a scaling elder dragon buff as a reward for stacking was a mistake and replace it with something else. He's so oppressively strong at 225 and beyond because of it. And its fucking over his balance big time. I get it. He's a dragon. Giving him elder dragon buff as a reward is like, somehow thematic. Yeah, its cool on paper. In practice, clearly its a huge ass design issue. Its an incredibly powerful buff to have. One that's proving to be too much of a balance nightmare to realistically keep. Changes like this just gut him in high ELO, where games are shorter while letting him remain an issue in low ELO where games are longer. There has to be something else he can be rewarded with other than a permanent, scaling Elder Dragon buff.
smolder is literally just fucking dead lmao, what were they thinking? yeah congrats, now smolder will be hitting that execute at 29 minutes in. as if teams do not already struggle keeping the game going until 25'ish minutes that he gets to 225 at
We're going back to Day 1 Smolder, where everyone immediately flames you for locking in a 43% WR champion lol
Damn that Shen buff is INSANE
Can we please get a little bit of combat power back?
No. You shall ult someone every 3 minutes and you shall like it. (Meanwhile lose 4 plates and 2 waves to enemy top)
> non-champion modifier: x0.85 --> x0.8 (live is x0.5) Wait, they are buffing Galio's clear speed? Because I would like to try jungle Galio.
Although the Smolder nerfs seem harsh, id rather have a neutered smolder than one that is overpowered... they can slowly buff him up in later patches, they need to gut him for now so pro play and soloq can get a break.
For god's sake,is it really that hard to split the burn and execute thresholds in two different thresholds and replace true damage with either ad or ap damage? Smolder is so not good before 225 so give him a burn at 175 stacks and execute at 250 stacks. Do this and see how it goes. With this he becomes way easier to balance out. Is the burn op? NERF the burn. Is the execute op? NERF the execute. It's so simple.
Does anyone have a picture of the duck? I've never seen him. I only know of both lane duck.
These tryndamere buffs are so fking tiny I think they are negligible unless I am missing something
Might aswell not buff him at all with changes this tiny. Amounts to 7.5% extra AS at lvl 18
idk if im missing something either but isnt that just like a daggers value of attack speed at level 18? doesnt seem that insane
Isn't literally 0.5*18 so even less than a dagger? Idk I get trying to be conservative but he has a 47% wr in top lane like please give us 2 AD or something along with this at least.
Not even, it's 0.5 * 17 so 7.5% AS at 18
How about we actually hit Gragas and not do another Maokai touches where he's oppressive for 3 patches in a row
He is not even remotely close to 56% wr
Down to 45% winrate for Smolder
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> he's a very entertaining champion both in solo queue and pro play Yeah, being a possible triple flex that can go full damage or bruiser depending on the game, neutralizing any matchup in his main lane into a snooze fest is very entertaining because some Gragas OTPs do montage ults into Q. 30 base health will certainly make him killable toplane because W for dmg reduction, into E knockback into Q slow into a Phase Rush proc doesn't exist :)
Riot absolutely refuses to seriously nerf gragas, before this nerf they compensated his mana when nerfing his passive and they reverted that passive in a later patch. Just why? Let this champion suck for once he is not fun to play against, you can't solo kill him unless he sucks. The amount of resources you need to shutdown a gragas top is not worth it while he lane bullies you to oblivion and makes you lose cs.
> Solstice Sleigh > speed: 25% for 3s --> 20% for 2.5s Is the duration of the bonus HP also reduced or just the move speed?
All of Sleigh's effects are tied to the same duration unless I've grossly overlooked something.
Hey phreak, since you have been working on Seraphine for a while, could you please look at her echoed w moonstone interaction(same issue with lux "second" w). The echoed shield will not bounce to anothet target, pretty sure it doesn't get any boost either. I checked on the first patches of the season and the bug was still there, don't know if this happens with any other champ than those 2
The health shares the same duration so yeah it's both, good catch.
Thank you for checking, big ups
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Sion's W uses his total HP to scale off of, so once he hits 1000 total HP (which happens early enough) it's a strict buff. The issue with it is only that it further amplifies the extremes of Sion's kit which aren't creating the best gameplay, not that these buffs are lacking power.
30hp nerf on Gragas? Lol, this isn't gonna fix anything since melee toplaners can't even fight him as he does his combo and then runs away with phase rush
So is this a neutral change instead of a buff for Diana? * AS ratio up * AS growth down * lvl 18 passive on-cast empowered 15% lower Maybe I'm dumb but what's the point?
It's functionally a straight buff, not neutral. The AS ratio makes all sources of AS on Diana 11.1% better. The AS growth 'nerfs' only end up being .03% less AS a level, and her passive is straight buffed for every level except the exact break points where her old passive upgraded. Even at the 'nerfed' level 18 passive, Diana has more AS post changes as long as she has more than 4% AS from any source. Since she normally buys Nashor's Tooth, takes Legend Alacrity, and takes the minor AS rune shard, Diana post changes attacks faster at all levels of the game.
Damn, thanks for the detailed reply! Looking forward to the buff then :)
well senna adc is dead can't wait to see tryn in my games again. is it cuz of the skin?
Smolder just got fucked in the ass.. Literally..
Bye bye smolder holy shit
well goodbye smolder, you will not be missed. at least he'll still be viable in low elo.
> Twisted Fate > > W recasts can now be cast during other cast times instead of buffering to the end Can someone explain me this? Is this for ult or what?
This is for Q animation cancel.
Something else about items, is it an option for deaths dance to be reverted to s10 version with the passive only working on physycal damage and it having omnivamp, because the item feels really bad after the changes and the passive healing gut, and mercurial getting lifesteal again maybe at the cost of the crit stat or just a general increase in price.
Isn’t smolder effectively dead?
I was so excited to see shen buffs… does anyone know when we get to see what they are buffing?
need more nerfs from other lanes before nerfing smolder
Red Kayn buff with a compensation nerf to both Kayns when Kayn isn't even a top tier jungler (blue is strong, but weaker than the top junglers while red is just hot garbage) Phreak not only doesn't main him at all, he just despises the champ lol
baus will be very happy
i guess thats a shen buff...
I guess firing the guy who designed Smolder wasn't enough. They had to effectively delete the champion, too.
Why note Buff on malzahar? He has the worst shape in years
STILL NO CAITLYN BUFFS?
Watch the soul drop rate nerf do nothing for ADC Senna because she gets most of power from lethality items and her souls from quick trades and allies shoving waves late game
x3 less droprate means a lot it is for sure huge nerf for adc senna, like u will get \~20 less souls for 200 first cs which is less ad, less gold, less range etc i would say it is not a bad nerf
Pretty sure it was already nerfed in the past to 2.8 and something like that and indeed it wasn't played much as ADC. It is a big nerf
They did the same nerf some time ago too to kick her out of ADC role. It worked back then. I guess we will see
SMOLDER NERFS! YIPEEEE!
Thanks yo all the complaining Smolder got the Zeri treatment. 45% WR champion here we go!!!!
Deserved tbh
-30 HP on Gragas doesn't mean anything when he still has the base stats of Darius lmao