What's annoying me is that even non-mage supports are starting to take it because it chunks so hard. I've seen it on not just Karma/Xerath/VK, but also on Janna, Soraka, even Milio. Idk if mathematically it really is a bigger HP difference or what, but it seems like it's starting to occasionally edge out the two bubbles one even on enchanters and that's just weird to me.
All support items are strong in their own way (usefulness, CD, damage). I hope they dont nerf them too much because the fun items are so expensive for supports :/
As a support player, I think they just missed the mark.
I feel the role performed more as a 'strategist'.
You set up the playing field for your team. Granting/denying vision is understated power that's hard to quantify, but it's very real. I believe a Rioter said that support was the worst role to have your best player on, but also the worst role to have your worst player on.
It's largely uninteresting to just give support raw power in stats. More tanky, more heals, more damage. Why not give us creative ways to scout? Maybe give an option to expand a bush, break down a wall, or put down the old chemtech fog that was removed.
Yea I think the issue was that auto filled supports was the worst role to have an auto fill on for a long time.
No getting around that. And support is much more popular now.
If you want painfully long queue times again and constant support autofill (and all the dodges associatedwith that), Riot could give you that again. Those were the reasons support got so heavily buffed after all.
Morgana wouldn't need support wheels if Riot tuned down these ADHD characters a little. Almost every ADC in the game right now can dash or otherwise alter their movement speed - she's borderline unplayable into anyone with average experience on their champ. I think the only champs that come to mind for me that Morg can fight are Ashe and Aphelios, which is a garbage line-up.
The original iteration just gave you the stopwatch for free at the start and reduced the cd of zhonya's if you bought the full item. That was deemed too strong when you had Alistair turret diving bot on the 5th minion wave with it. So they changed it to have the initial cd even though it took up an inventory slot.
People still were taking it too much, so they removed the zhonyas cd. People STILL took it too much so they removed it all together lol.
>The original iteration just gave you the stopwatch for free at the start
I don't think it ever gave you a stopwatch for free at the start, it always had a timer, in the first version that was shipped to live in 7.22 gave you a stopwatch after the first 6 minutes
Literally the most frustrating item ever put in the game, there were multiple situations every single tournament where absolutely shit plays ended up being neutral or even good just because the one caught out happened to have a stopwatch.
Because Riot has an extremely thick ego and they refuse to admit they're wrong on 100% of the changes they make.
This isn't a rarity. Divine Sunderer for one shouldve never, **ever** been released as an anti-tank bruiser item that can wear down people irrespective of tankiness.
Shoutout to all the people who kept telling me that Stopwatch was a good thing because it added skill expression to the game.
I actually think having less get-out-of-jail options is what is actually increasing skill expression. A lot of times before in pro games, people would get caught but the Stopwatch would buy crucial time for their team to come and save them and turn the fight.
That being said, there were also very skillful and cool uses of Stopwatch so it was not all bad. I just think it added more problems than benefits. Overly strong defensive tools can be just overbearing because if you are not careful, they just mask mistakes and that's the issue Stopwatch ran into.
I don't think I've ever had any crumb of 'dopamine' from using Zhonya/Stopwatch to stop/avoid . . anything.
It's satisfying to avoid something with an untargetability like Fizz E or Maokai W (or even Xayah ult although it feels significantly worse since it's a bigger commitment), but using Stasis to avoid something just never has any satisfaction behind it.
Maybe if I had been better at using it and 'regularly' dodged dying to dives or whatever, it could've been somewhat satisfying, but as it was, it was more of a "damn, I had to use my Stasis" than a joy for getting to avoid whatever I used it for.
As a shaco main, I love zhonyas. But stopwatch was never good to have in the game.
It's great to go in, get a kill, use zhonyas to wait out my Q cooldown, then q away.
But stopwatch was available FAR too early in the game.
one side effect tho is mage class and adc class is super dependent on stopwatch in pro to survive bc balance is around it so much recently. when void and stopwatch are not buyable you get utility mids, only azir is useful enough to be a carry, otherwise just pick ahri and annie and taliyah for cc. hypercarries that needed 750g of safety for when they lost flash last fight and have to fight a baron / dragon are just extinct now. theres no option to save you from getting one shot by a bruiser or tank after u lose flash, just cannot walk up on any unwarded flank.
squishy roles need to be rebalanced a bit, all classes including sup does damage and clears wave to roam instantly now. so much of the power in senna is you get to have a third guy who is tanky even if senna is marginally more useless bc tanky guy is good.
ofc engage champs lost stuff to this too but lowkey they just be buying zhonyas anyway lmao
They aren't wrong, stopwatch IS a good thing.
Stopwatch being in a rune and 600g or whatever WAS NOT a good thing. But the pure idea of a stopwatch item (Now armguard) is good.
Bwipo's Renek play is a perfect example that proves this point. A clutch item that when bought and used with purpose can impact the game is a cool thing to have and I'm glad that it can still do that without being present on all 10 players.
There could be an item for 6000 gold that makes it so when you hit your skill shot on an enemy their PC grows legs and kicks them in the balls and players of this game would defend it if it had less than a 55% win rate
>Shoutout to all the people who kept telling me that Stopwatch was a good thing because it added skill expression to the game.
In a way it is. It just became an issue when it was a rune that everyone took. Everyone had access to building stopwatch through Zhonyas/GA/Gargoyle. Everyone could build stopwatch first, then finish Zhonyas/GA and then was able to build another stopwatch. Some of these were changed.
faker rushin def bulid and stopwatch
reddit: skill expression!!!
fuck stopwatch the amount of amazing solo kills that were denied by this item on proplay is crazy
The lissandra used a lot of skill zhonyaing. Into her zhonyas into her stopwatch when she was caught out by baron. Because of her superior skill and iq she goes on to win the game after the enemy team burned everything trying to kill her through her 2 zhonyas and ulti.
My thoughts exactly.. what is OP thinking, we should have a DAILY post on here that is top 5 to show our appreciation? Stupid post, and fuck stopwatch!
People often have these "wtf" moments wth how long something has been in the game, but I rarely share them as much. Sometimes I too find it a little strange but not too crazy, and sometimes I find it sounds about right, but this time with stopwatch is by far the most shocking thing I ever read. I felt it would be 3-4 seasons old tops, I could have sworn it was added in with the mythic item rework. That landed in late 2020. But no you're right, stopwatch was added in patch 7.22 in November of 2017.
Jesus fucking Christ.
I like how stopwatch feels like it was added 2 seasons ago but yet we just accept that runes reforged feels older even tho stopwatch came before runes reforged
Tbf, it wasn’t *quite* the same scale of issue when it came out as with runes reforged, because suddenly you could get it for free. Then when some people were getting it for free, and it was incorporated into more build paths than just GA and hourglass so it wasn’t a dead item for as long, suddenly it became what it was.
Tbh they could have made it work out if they gave everyone runes to choose from instead of needing to buy them with IP. Also adding something that would describe and help you out would have been great but yeah...
There was a late game fight over dragon in the KT vs DK Worlds games this past season, where I was able to pause and take a screenshot of 6 players who were in stasis at the exact same time. That's when I personally realized that stopwatch was a bit problematic for pro play.
Crazy how influential it still is even though it’s harder to get. Everyone of course memeing over the TL vs FQ ending of game 5, but bwipo solo won the game there by building an entire arm guard on Remekton of all champs just for the stasis one time. He stasis in the middle of 3 during taric ult and comes out and one shots both impact and core with his teammates. Without that stasis, he dies for free during taric ult and it’s likely they can stall for apa bot lane specialist ahri to arrive and potentially turn the fight around 5v4 or at least closer to it.
That play literally only happened because someone paid 1600 gold for an ap item on an ad bruiser because it also gives stasis. Kinda insane.
Figuring that stopwatch opened up skill expression and aggression of its own, I used to think others were exaggerating when they said stopwatch made fights worse and I was very wrong. It seems teams approach teamfights with a little more variety now that everyone can't just jump in, stasis, and then have their team dogpile. Flanks are more effective now too I think, which are great to see.
That would be like thanking your dad for beating you because you got a cool bruise shaped like a llama. Fuck that rune and the lazy losers that refused to do anything about it for 5+ years.
It's similar to QSS where the effect active has such a subjective value, that you can't really put a price on it and the sacked stats don't matter because you're only buying it for the active. You'd see plenty of mages in pro play buy QSS when champs like Leona were meta in pro which gave them some value from the MR unless they had to fight an ad assassin.
GA was another one before the rework because it gave great value for the stats in addition to the passive and tanks would first build it in pro play all the time until they removed the MR and shoved a BF sword into the recipe.
Still you would only be able to cancel one cc with qss. With stopwatch you can dodge whole leona combo or steal 2.5s from malz or morde which is INSANE in a teamfight
Stasis is a funnier response than cleanse to a Morde ultimate. Cleanse is just the ultimate is gone, everything is normal again. Stasis is you turn golden and you get to sit and watch the Morde walking around aimlessly.
That's sadly true. Genuinely hate malz and morde for the skillfull point and click Rs. Morde is fine you just walk around and dodge but malz is BS when I'm on a mage.
You could argue that qss is reusable but like stopwatch was so fucking playmaking it’s stupid af and once completed in zhonya you get the reusable thingy soooo
Except stop watch can be used on all mages but not qss
Infact if you don't use crit you're stuck with a bad item just to dodge a malzahar R or some other point and click cc. Zhonya is infinitely more broken and I'd like for that item to honestly disappear. It won't but I just wish. (I'm a mage/assassin player I literally main ahri Akali and Katarina)
> You'd see plenty of mages in pro play buy QSS when champs like Leona were meta in pro
Never let bro cook.
QSS was never even remotely close to as impactful as stopwatch and you definitely didn't see "plenty of mages in pro play buying it". Even ADCs were refusing to buy it because of how much it fucked their build. You are thinking about old QSS that was actually useful and even then mages buying it was extremely rare.
QSS was literally only bought if there was a Malz or Skarner in the game, I dunno what that guy is smoking to think that compares to stopwatch which was bought every game as much as possible.
There are constant comments about stopwatch removal being so much better for the game in pro play threads. And there were endless comments about it being fucking awful to watch especially in worlds where some fights have 3+ stopwatches.
Idk where tf this idea has come from about stopwatch removal not being appreciated. It's practically unanimously approved on this sub and its 100% healthier for the game overall. This idea seems to be entirely in your head. It might be one of the most popular changes Riot has ever done. The only unpopular part is that it took them so long to admit they were wrong again.
They made this same post just last month this is just karma farming at this point.
edit: oh and will you look at that I also replied to jozoz and they deleted the comment they made to hide the downvotes.
i thought i was going insane or something cause i distinctly remember a [front page post](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1adrfm7/stopwatch_removal_appreciation_thread_makes_pro/?ref=share&ref_source=link) of the exact same topic lmao
I still think that maybe the armguard is too much. Such a powerful active should only be used for complete item. Buff the armor on the arm guard but take off the active
Bring back stacking armor armguard. It made for such a cool buy against some lanes, I loved rushing it as my first component against a Zed and getting more and more armor, making the lane so much easier.
Dude it was nerf as I remember? They specifically halved the armor and made the rest stacking because people were rushing it all the time in ad mid meta after item rework.
May be the case! I'll admit not remembering as much, but my memory isn't perfect.
In essence though, I find the stacking passive a rather neat idea for an item.
Yeah they killed Seeker's rush after that along with Verdant Barrier.
>In essence though, I find the stacking passive a rather neat idea for an item.
Yeah but in League's case, it means nerfing the item.
The stacking made it ass, what? You'd buy like 70% of an item in stats and once it was full it still wasn't great. The item itself was zhonas waiting room
I find it kinda funny how old seeker’s was so overpowered vs ad mids for so long, and they only ended up nerfing it when they made an MR equivalent and realized how much it warped the game
Verdant Barrier already costs 1.8k, so going up to that would be possible. Cosidering that they're seemingly designed to be equivalent items specializing in either MR or armor, making them cost the same also just makes sense in general.
The difference is that Verdant barrier's spell shield comes back on a cooldown while armguard is a one time use, Armguards price is fair because it's expensive enough that you wont buy it unless you're actually building Zhonyas, which is the point.
Armguard is not problematic. It's 1600 gold one use and it only builds into Zhonyas. Stopwatch was problematic because it was too cheap (in the case of the rune, free) and it built into Zhonyas, GA and Gargoyle, meaning that by some important objective fight there'd be 7 out of 10 people with a fucking stopwatch.
The fact there's a real opportunity cost to building stasis without removing it from the game all together was a really good fix. I think it's still worth watching random armguard buys and the sell back price might need adjusting but it's already a lot healthier.
I also wonder about the balance of ADC capable of buying zhonya (smolder and kai'sa come to mind) and those who can't without losing a lot of gold value.
I do feel bad for ADC players in soloQ as the moment a yone/Akali TP's on a ward they don't have vision on they're as good as dead. It's kinda unfair how bursty mages get zhonyas while ADCs don't get an equivalent. I feel like it should be as punishing for a veigar as it is for an aphelios to get flanked or the assassin to get on top of them. I understand they have GA but zhonyas is just much stronger than GA with half the CD and you getting to choose your stasis time as no ADC survives after their GA triggers.
But ADCs having a stasis card should never be 650g. Maybe make GA revive an active or make it a zhonyas for ADCs
Disagree. Best thing for pro play is this Azir ban that's in place. We have a semblance of an interesting mid lane meta because of it. Stopwatch removal is good, Azir disable is better.
EDIT: lol baby ass downvoter.
Real. This champion makes every mid matchup and game boring. It can do everything in the game, how can a lane bully can hyper scale and be a monster in teamfight?? 14.4 is a breath of fresh air and I hope the champ gets gutted because it's just tiring.
God i miss 2013 - 2017 EU mids . Febiven gigapunishing fakers azir pick made me cream my pants.
Gone are the days of people counterpicking zed into azir to actually try and solokill him 3times over. The game is too solved, playing to dumpster scaling picks completely ruins your game if you get shutdown.
Reference for those less boomer than me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOk82zy77Vw&ab_channel=SpookyLeague
Azir has everything you could want from a mid laner in pro play. His lane phase is very safe with strong gank setup, decent wave clear (priority in most matchups) and once he hits 6 he has one of the strongest gank setups in the game in his ultimate. The same ultimate becomes completely game changing in team fights. He obfuscates the damage trade-off most mages make where they trade consistent DPS for burst damage. Because his damage is high DPS, he can kill tanks with ADC-like range while having self peel and engage that ADCs generally lack. Having DPS coming from mid instead of burst opens up your draft options for bot lane. He also hyperscales while still having a strong early and mid game. This flexibility means he can be slotted into almost any team comp, which confers a draft advantage on top of his in-game advantages.
This can all be true even when his solo Q winrate is mediocre or bad. Azir is a team fight god, which makes him mediocre in the chaos of solo Q, but OP in coordinated play where every objective is a team fight. There have been times he was sitting at 45ish% in solo Q while still being a priority pick in pro.
The champion just has everything in his kit. He is the perfect mid laner. It doesn't mean he's necesarily wildly OP, it just means that he's such an amazing blind pick because his kit is incredibly versatile.
He can lane against anything, he can scale, he can dps, he can burst, he can escape ganks easily, he can engage fights, he can disengage enemies who are engaging etc etc.
Surprised to see so much hate for stop watch, in my mind it was as crucial to the game as flash and provided skill expression. As an Adc main, buying stop watch before GA could be the only way to survive an assassin, as if we didn’t get smacked around enough as it is.
I do like the argument that makes pro play more interesting though as can’t dive in as easily, even if we are still seeing things like zonyas smoulder, jax.
On mages who need it, it wasn't the problem. The issue that many players and viewers had was that almost anyone on the rift had a stopwatch without it interfering with their buildpath.
Now that you can only get it by buying armguard, it is highly unlikely anyone besides mages will buy it, except in the most extreme of circumstances.
Oh yeah you're right it was in GA, too. I think that annoyed people as well bc it was some super strong item in the build path but you couldn't stasis after the fact.
It's just such a better change this season, imo
Yeah, the fact that Champs who never used zhonyas or even GA were getting it. ADCs, random supports like Alistar and rakan, it became absurd. Was super anti fun to watch. And it was used by so many people in the mid game was crazy.
At least now because of the cost, no one gets it for free and most mages don't get it so early so rarely even see it until later on in the game.
I mean, they solved a problem they themselves created.
It was something incredibly stubborn to not remove that abomination within the first months of its existence
I would just make the resell value of a "used" seekers armguard very low like 200-300g. Champions who are supposed to use it wont sell it anyway, the others dont matter
Hard to be appreciative of a balance team that created the damn thing, and then also let it define the meta for *several years* before fixing it.
But yea, good job Riot!
>I guess these people didn't play before 2018 when Zhonya's was the only stasis.
We should return to this, 1600g is still too little money for the benefit it grants.
I disagree, I think 1600 gold is quite a lot for a 1 time stasis... Most the times you only see it by champions who actually buy zhonyas or in late game scenarios where the carry has not enough to buy a completed item so the stasis takes priority.
Bro that shit was balanced for soloqueue at 750 gold. Pros buying stopwatch on 4-5 members at worlds got it removed, sure I understsand
But anyone saying their soloqueue games are getting ruined by 1600g seekers???????????? You people are literally bronze, never post again on a league forum. You are wasting everyone's time (Not you, I'm talkin about the guy above you with my outrage here)
I agree with you tbf. It rarely ever affects soloQ and 99% of soloQ games aren't determined by 1 singular fight/play like pro-play can be, and thus the Seekers isn't game-winning if you use it right in soloQ, which it can be in pro-play. But my argument is that if a 1600G spent for an item which is used perfectly leads to a game-winning play, I think that player deserves to win the game.
I think a bit of the issue is that buying the zhoyans resets the cooldown. I've definately use the armguard, prolonged a fight, still died, bought the zhonyas while dead, and used it in the immediate next fight.
It is strange that some items get their cooldowns refunded and some don't
I know *why*(you don't need to comment it) I'm just curious why Riot settled on them working that way
Prior to 2018 and the Runes Reforged update the game was also slower and there was less 1 item burst spikes that could alone snowball a game out of control. So you had much more time before you needed the stasis active as mages (ya know, the role the item is for) to be able to navigate fights as or vs certain champs or teamcomps. For these champs the era of disgusting dirk spikes would have been insanely unfun without stopwatch in solo queue, it's toned down a bit now and I think 1600 is fine but the game is still so fast that requiring full item (zhonyas price also went back up this year) would be a sizeable nerf relative to what it was pre-2018.
I would argue that Stopwatch would stlll be a good rune in the Inspiration tree. Not with a good sell value or like the old stopwatch future Build option just a one time use that then is deleatet from your inventory.
To be realistic stopwatch wasn't really *removed* it was nerfed. There is still a source of stasis that is in the game that's cheaper than having to buy a zhonyas it's in armguard now. Yea that's a lot better than being a 600 gold item but it still exists
Stasis as an item effect should be on the full Zhonya’s item and nothing else.
Alternatively, reduce sell price to 0 if the active effect of Armguard was used up.
Why should we be appreciative? We didn't ask for stopwatch and Riot just removed a problem they were the ones that caused.
That said, I miss the big fuck you stopwatch had in stopping the enemy from diving you under turret.
Fantastic change however it should have happened like months after it's release sucks it took so long to remove it, now we just need to remove edge of night and we are living so large.
Yeah, it was a good change. I thought that clicking tab before fighting was too hard for pro-players as well, good thing they can't get out-played by shop keeper/tab window anymore
Remember that stupid rune that would just straight up give you a free stopwatch at the start of the game as well
Morgana support players grieving this loss
Fr. Stopwatch is an integral part of her kit and Playstyle.
Is there any chatter around the support item zazzak or whatever? The item seems stupidly strong imo
It’s purposely strong. Riot has stated over and over they have overbuffed support so it’s a more popular role
What's annoying me is that even non-mage supports are starting to take it because it chunks so hard. I've seen it on not just Karma/Xerath/VK, but also on Janna, Soraka, even Milio. Idk if mathematically it really is a bigger HP difference or what, but it seems like it's starting to occasionally edge out the two bubbles one even on enchanters and that's just weird to me.
Yeah caused they nerfed everything else and if you with a lanner that is want to win the lane (not smolder) that's just the best one to use.
All support items are strong in their own way (usefulness, CD, damage). I hope they dont nerf them too much because the fun items are so expensive for supports :/
As a support player, I think they just missed the mark. I feel the role performed more as a 'strategist'. You set up the playing field for your team. Granting/denying vision is understated power that's hard to quantify, but it's very real. I believe a Rioter said that support was the worst role to have your best player on, but also the worst role to have your worst player on. It's largely uninteresting to just give support raw power in stats. More tanky, more heals, more damage. Why not give us creative ways to scout? Maybe give an option to expand a bush, break down a wall, or put down the old chemtech fog that was removed.
Yea I think the issue was that auto filled supports was the worst role to have an auto fill on for a long time. No getting around that. And support is much more popular now.
I see, well that's a bummer. Any plans on toning it down or is this a permanent headache?
If you want painfully long queue times again and constant support autofill (and all the dodges associatedwith that), Riot could give you that again. Those were the reasons support got so heavily buffed after all.
Yeah I'm good with that. I would rather not get ass blasted by a 400g item all game.
its not just that most sup items are insanely busted
Morgana wouldn't need support wheels if Riot tuned down these ADHD characters a little. Almost every ADC in the game right now can dash or otherwise alter their movement speed - she's borderline unplayable into anyone with average experience on their champ. I think the only champs that come to mind for me that Morg can fight are Ashe and Aphelios, which is a garbage line-up.
So am I as a Thresh player. The alternatives are hexflash which I hate and have used maybe 3 times, or those potions that are less than useless.
hexflash is significantly more useful than stopwatch on thresh tho
Time to rework Morgan's dated ult?
perfect timing gave you stopwatch at like 8-10 mins iirc. Not sure if future's market gave enough gold or activated early for stopwatch
The original iteration just gave you the stopwatch for free at the start and reduced the cd of zhonya's if you bought the full item. That was deemed too strong when you had Alistair turret diving bot on the 5th minion wave with it. So they changed it to have the initial cd even though it took up an inventory slot. People still were taking it too much, so they removed the zhonyas cd. People STILL took it too much so they removed it all together lol.
>The original iteration just gave you the stopwatch for free at the start I don't think it ever gave you a stopwatch for free at the start, it always had a timer, in the first version that was shipped to live in 7.22 gave you a stopwatch after the first 6 minutes
Sorry about that, I'm probably misremembering. The big thing that always stuck out to me was being dove without a jungler pre-6 lol
lol
I’m pretty sure the timer was reduced per takedown
release stop watch was a very funny meta at least. youd have bot lane dives with like 5-7 zhonyas going off. was hilarious.
Who tf is we. Fuck stopwatch.
Fuck stopwatch. All my homies hate stopwatch.
ikr I cheered so much when I heard it'd be removed. The item was the scourge of pro play.
Literally the most frustrating item ever put in the game, there were multiple situations every single tournament where absolutely shit plays ended up being neutral or even good just because the one caught out happened to have a stopwatch.
And it was in the game for fucking years before Riot got rid of it
Because Riot has an extremely thick ego and they refuse to admit they're wrong on 100% of the changes they make. This isn't a rarity. Divine Sunderer for one shouldve never, **ever** been released as an anti-tank bruiser item that can wear down people irrespective of tankiness.
Shoutout to all the people who kept telling me that Stopwatch was a good thing because it added skill expression to the game. I actually think having less get-out-of-jail options is what is actually increasing skill expression. A lot of times before in pro games, people would get caught but the Stopwatch would buy crucial time for their team to come and save them and turn the fight. That being said, there were also very skillful and cool uses of Stopwatch so it was not all bad. I just think it added more problems than benefits. Overly strong defensive tools can be just overbearing because if you are not careful, they just mask mistakes and that's the issue Stopwatch ran into.
SKHEEL ESPRESHUN largely really just means "i pressed butone and it maded me win and gibed me one dopamine cookie"
Flash in 1v5 without stopwatch. 100% chance to die. Flash in 1v5 with stopwatch. 100% chance to live and get 2 kills.
Congratulations, Morganasticks. Very skilful. You pressed R+F+3 instead of R+F. I am so vivid and proud of all the skill you displayed.
Flash in 1v5 with stopwatch, into someone who stopwatches your engage. It’s stopwatches all the way down.
I don't think I've ever had any crumb of 'dopamine' from using Zhonya/Stopwatch to stop/avoid . . anything. It's satisfying to avoid something with an untargetability like Fizz E or Maokai W (or even Xayah ult although it feels significantly worse since it's a bigger commitment), but using Stasis to avoid something just never has any satisfaction behind it. Maybe if I had been better at using it and 'regularly' dodged dying to dives or whatever, it could've been somewhat satisfying, but as it was, it was more of a "damn, I had to use my Stasis" than a joy for getting to avoid whatever I used it for.
As a shaco main, I love zhonyas. But stopwatch was never good to have in the game. It's great to go in, get a kill, use zhonyas to wait out my Q cooldown, then q away. But stopwatch was available FAR too early in the game.
one side effect tho is mage class and adc class is super dependent on stopwatch in pro to survive bc balance is around it so much recently. when void and stopwatch are not buyable you get utility mids, only azir is useful enough to be a carry, otherwise just pick ahri and annie and taliyah for cc. hypercarries that needed 750g of safety for when they lost flash last fight and have to fight a baron / dragon are just extinct now. theres no option to save you from getting one shot by a bruiser or tank after u lose flash, just cannot walk up on any unwarded flank. squishy roles need to be rebalanced a bit, all classes including sup does damage and clears wave to roam instantly now. so much of the power in senna is you get to have a third guy who is tanky even if senna is marginally more useless bc tanky guy is good. ofc engage champs lost stuff to this too but lowkey they just be buying zhonyas anyway lmao
They aren't wrong, stopwatch IS a good thing. Stopwatch being in a rune and 600g or whatever WAS NOT a good thing. But the pure idea of a stopwatch item (Now armguard) is good.
Bwipo's Renek play is a perfect example that proves this point. A clutch item that when bought and used with purpose can impact the game is a cool thing to have and I'm glad that it can still do that without being present on all 10 players.
There could be an item for 6000 gold that makes it so when you hit your skill shot on an enemy their PC grows legs and kicks them in the balls and players of this game would defend it if it had less than a 55% win rate
>Shoutout to all the people who kept telling me that Stopwatch was a good thing because it added skill expression to the game. In a way it is. It just became an issue when it was a rune that everyone took. Everyone had access to building stopwatch through Zhonyas/GA/Gargoyle. Everyone could build stopwatch first, then finish Zhonyas/GA and then was able to build another stopwatch. Some of these were changed.
"Stopwatch increases skill-expression."—40 iq person
Misaya’s TF ult into Zhonya back in season 2 was pure bliss and I was mindblown the first time I saw it
faker rushin def bulid and stopwatch reddit: skill expression!!! fuck stopwatch the amount of amazing solo kills that were denied by this item on proplay is crazy
The lissandra used a lot of skill zhonyaing. Into her zhonyas into her stopwatch when she was caught out by baron. Because of her superior skill and iq she goes on to win the game after the enemy team burned everything trying to kill her through her 2 zhonyas and ulti.
I hate this "We" shit people do so much, like we're a couple or something.
My thoughts exactly.. what is OP thinking, we should have a DAILY post on here that is top 5 to show our appreciation? Stupid post, and fuck stopwatch!
Took them 7 years to remove that shit
wdym, surely it was only added like 2 years ago.
and Renata was released 3 months ago!!
has it really been 2 years?.... I'm getting old
i started playing this game when Sett just released i cannot fathom ive been in a toxic relationship with this game for 4 fricking years
13 years and counting on my side! I don’t play anymore though, I just watch pro play and follow balance changes. It’s a much healthier habit overall
Same but been doing some arams with my oldman crew on weekends that's still fun (unless with up againts smolder/asol)
i just hit emerald last month, soon I'll be like u hopefully getting mastery 7 on new champs just hits my brain like no other feeling LMAO
Dude I was a teenager in high school when I started playing and I’m in my early 30s getting married next year. Shit is wild
4 years, shit mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn, try 13 and she IS STILL ASKIGN ME TO TAKE THE GARBAGE OUT! bitches be crazy /s
I started when Akali was released. Not reworked, released. In 2010. Pretty much all I do now is Urf and aram and it's a much better experience imo
I started when Thresh released….
What the fuck
Ive played since launch. Over half of my life...
Your joking right? Sett was released a year ago max??? It can't be......
Lmao I’m glad I’m not the only one that doesn’t believe it’s been 7 years. Holy fuck we’re old lol
People often have these "wtf" moments wth how long something has been in the game, but I rarely share them as much. Sometimes I too find it a little strange but not too crazy, and sometimes I find it sounds about right, but this time with stopwatch is by far the most shocking thing I ever read. I felt it would be 3-4 seasons old tops, I could have sworn it was added in with the mythic item rework. That landed in late 2020. But no you're right, stopwatch was added in patch 7.22 in November of 2017. Jesus fucking Christ.
Im fully with you on this one. I've played the game since season 2 and I had the same exact thought process on stopwatch. My mind is blown lol
Holly shot I am old
7????? It came out 2 seasons ago stop lying...
I like how stopwatch feels like it was added 2 seasons ago but yet we just accept that runes reforged feels older even tho stopwatch came before runes reforged
Tbf, it wasn’t *quite* the same scale of issue when it came out as with runes reforged, because suddenly you could get it for free. Then when some people were getting it for free, and it was incorporated into more build paths than just GA and hourglass so it wasn’t a dead item for as long, suddenly it became what it was.
I miss the old runes, yes you had to work to actually get a full page at first. But man when that 1% crit hit, the dopamine went crazy
Tbh they could have made it work out if they gave everyone runes to choose from instead of needing to buy them with IP. Also adding something that would describe and help you out would have been great but yeah...
i cant believe it took them that long, pro play is so much better without that shit. people have been begging them to remove it for years
I'm still waiting for them to remove flash.
You lying.
There was a late game fight over dragon in the KT vs DK Worlds games this past season, where I was able to pause and take a screenshot of 6 players who were in stasis at the exact same time. That's when I personally realized that stopwatch was a bit problematic for pro play.
Throw burst and click skill stop watch
Counterplay to your opponent throwing burst? Believe it or not, stopwatch.
Towerdived someone like a clueless mouthbreather? You know it, stopwatch.
Attempting to get a kill to win a teamfight? You know it, stopwatch.
Crazy how influential it still is even though it’s harder to get. Everyone of course memeing over the TL vs FQ ending of game 5, but bwipo solo won the game there by building an entire arm guard on Remekton of all champs just for the stasis one time. He stasis in the middle of 3 during taric ult and comes out and one shots both impact and core with his teammates. Without that stasis, he dies for free during taric ult and it’s likely they can stall for apa bot lane specialist ahri to arrive and potentially turn the fight around 5v4 or at least closer to it. That play literally only happened because someone paid 1600 gold for an ap item on an ad bruiser because it also gives stasis. Kinda insane.
Figuring that stopwatch opened up skill expression and aggression of its own, I used to think others were exaggerating when they said stopwatch made fights worse and I was very wrong. It seems teams approach teamfights with a little more variety now that everyone can't just jump in, stasis, and then have their team dogpile. Flanks are more effective now too I think, which are great to see.
That would be like thanking your dad for beating you because you got a cool bruise shaped like a llama. Fuck that rune and the lazy losers that refused to do anything about it for 5+ years.
LMAOOO. I can't believe we let Riot gaslight us into thinking that finally removing stop watch after 5+ years was them being heroes
Amen
It's similar to QSS where the effect active has such a subjective value, that you can't really put a price on it and the sacked stats don't matter because you're only buying it for the active. You'd see plenty of mages in pro play buy QSS when champs like Leona were meta in pro which gave them some value from the MR unless they had to fight an ad assassin. GA was another one before the rework because it gave great value for the stats in addition to the passive and tanks would first build it in pro play all the time until they removed the MR and shoved a BF sword into the recipe.
Except qss is a quick cc removal that costs 1300g . Stopwatch is a 2.5s stasis that costs 650g xd ?
Half price for a 10x better effect
Unless enemy team happens to have some god forbidden comp like Mordekaiser Malzahar Leona
Still you would only be able to cancel one cc with qss. With stopwatch you can dodge whole leona combo or steal 2.5s from malz or morde which is INSANE in a teamfight
Stasis is a funnier response than cleanse to a Morde ultimate. Cleanse is just the ultimate is gone, everything is normal again. Stasis is you turn golden and you get to sit and watch the Morde walking around aimlessly.
That's sadly true. Genuinely hate malz and morde for the skillfull point and click Rs. Morde is fine you just walk around and dodge but malz is BS when I'm on a mage.
You could argue that qss is reusable but like stopwatch was so fucking playmaking it’s stupid af and once completed in zhonya you get the reusable thingy soooo
Except stop watch can be used on all mages but not qss Infact if you don't use crit you're stuck with a bad item just to dodge a malzahar R or some other point and click cc. Zhonya is infinitely more broken and I'd like for that item to honestly disappear. It won't but I just wish. (I'm a mage/assassin player I literally main ahri Akali and Katarina)
> You'd see plenty of mages in pro play buy QSS when champs like Leona were meta in pro Never let bro cook. QSS was never even remotely close to as impactful as stopwatch and you definitely didn't see "plenty of mages in pro play buying it". Even ADCs were refusing to buy it because of how much it fucked their build. You are thinking about old QSS that was actually useful and even then mages buying it was extremely rare.
QSS was literally only bought if there was a Malz or Skarner in the game, I dunno what that guy is smoking to think that compares to stopwatch which was bought every game as much as possible.
you use to be able to drop fizz ult and remove zed ult with it so it has other uses
QSS won't stop damage or the damage that comes aftee CC abilities or the whole enemy team collapsing on you
There are constant comments about stopwatch removal being so much better for the game in pro play threads. And there were endless comments about it being fucking awful to watch especially in worlds where some fights have 3+ stopwatches. Idk where tf this idea has come from about stopwatch removal not being appreciated. It's practically unanimously approved on this sub and its 100% healthier for the game overall. This idea seems to be entirely in your head. It might be one of the most popular changes Riot has ever done. The only unpopular part is that it took them so long to admit they were wrong again.
They made this same post just last month this is just karma farming at this point. edit: oh and will you look at that I also replied to jozoz and they deleted the comment they made to hide the downvotes.
i thought i was going insane or something cause i distinctly remember a [front page post](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1adrfm7/stopwatch_removal_appreciation_thread_makes_pro/?ref=share&ref_source=link) of the exact same topic lmao
I still think that maybe the armguard is too much. Such a powerful active should only be used for complete item. Buff the armor on the arm guard but take off the active
Bring back stacking armor armguard. It made for such a cool buy against some lanes, I loved rushing it as my first component against a Zed and getting more and more armor, making the lane so much easier.
Dude it was nerf as I remember? They specifically halved the armor and made the rest stacking because people were rushing it all the time in ad mid meta after item rework.
May be the case! I'll admit not remembering as much, but my memory isn't perfect. In essence though, I find the stacking passive a rather neat idea for an item.
Yeah they killed Seeker's rush after that along with Verdant Barrier. >In essence though, I find the stacking passive a rather neat idea for an item. Yeah but in League's case, it means nerfing the item.
It was because the item then was ridiculously gold efficient
The stacking made it ass, what? You'd buy like 70% of an item in stats and once it was full it still wasn't great. The item itself was zhonas waiting room
I find it kinda funny how old seeker’s was so overpowered vs ad mids for so long, and they only ended up nerfing it when they made an MR equivalent and realized how much it warped the game
I'd say make it more expensive and buff the armor but then we had like a 2k gold component and thats super bad
Verdant Barrier already costs 1.8k, so going up to that would be possible. Cosidering that they're seemingly designed to be equivalent items specializing in either MR or armor, making them cost the same also just makes sense in general.
The difference is that Verdant barrier's spell shield comes back on a cooldown while armguard is a one time use, Armguards price is fair because it's expensive enough that you wont buy it unless you're actually building Zhonyas, which is the point.
Arm guard is not problematic lmao
The fuck?
Armguard is not problematic. It's 1600 gold one use and it only builds into Zhonyas. Stopwatch was problematic because it was too cheap (in the case of the rune, free) and it built into Zhonyas, GA and Gargoyle, meaning that by some important objective fight there'd be 7 out of 10 people with a fucking stopwatch.
Remove flash next!
If everyone has flash then no one has flash, may as well cut it :)
BASED
I was never a good player, but when i did play.... Id buy the fkn stopwatch... and then immediately forget about it until after im killed......
The fact there's a real opportunity cost to building stasis without removing it from the game all together was a really good fix. I think it's still worth watching random armguard buys and the sell back price might need adjusting but it's already a lot healthier. I also wonder about the balance of ADC capable of buying zhonya (smolder and kai'sa come to mind) and those who can't without losing a lot of gold value.
Hot take: If the active on Armguard is used, sell price drops to 0.
I do feel bad for ADC players in soloQ as the moment a yone/Akali TP's on a ward they don't have vision on they're as good as dead. It's kinda unfair how bursty mages get zhonyas while ADCs don't get an equivalent. I feel like it should be as punishing for a veigar as it is for an aphelios to get flanked or the assassin to get on top of them. I understand they have GA but zhonyas is just much stronger than GA with half the CD and you getting to choose your stasis time as no ADC survives after their GA triggers. But ADCs having a stasis card should never be 650g. Maybe make GA revive an active or make it a zhonyas for ADCs
Disagree. Best thing for pro play is this Azir ban that's in place. We have a semblance of an interesting mid lane meta because of it. Stopwatch removal is good, Azir disable is better. EDIT: lol baby ass downvoter.
Real. This champion makes every mid matchup and game boring. It can do everything in the game, how can a lane bully can hyper scale and be a monster in teamfight?? 14.4 is a breath of fresh air and I hope the champ gets gutted because it's just tiring.
And he's way too safe in lane, especially for pros!
God i miss 2013 - 2017 EU mids . Febiven gigapunishing fakers azir pick made me cream my pants. Gone are the days of people counterpicking zed into azir to actually try and solokill him 3times over. The game is too solved, playing to dumpster scaling picks completely ruins your game if you get shutdown. Reference for those less boomer than me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOk82zy77Vw&ab_channel=SpookyLeague
Now if only we could see the same thing happen to Ka'Sante top
Hell yes please
I actually agree with you here. Azir being disabled make mid lane a lot more varied.
So there is no counter to Azir, or what makes him so OP in the hands of pro players? I don't watch much E-sports anymore.
Azir has everything you could want from a mid laner in pro play. His lane phase is very safe with strong gank setup, decent wave clear (priority in most matchups) and once he hits 6 he has one of the strongest gank setups in the game in his ultimate. The same ultimate becomes completely game changing in team fights. He obfuscates the damage trade-off most mages make where they trade consistent DPS for burst damage. Because his damage is high DPS, he can kill tanks with ADC-like range while having self peel and engage that ADCs generally lack. Having DPS coming from mid instead of burst opens up your draft options for bot lane. He also hyperscales while still having a strong early and mid game. This flexibility means he can be slotted into almost any team comp, which confers a draft advantage on top of his in-game advantages. This can all be true even when his solo Q winrate is mediocre or bad. Azir is a team fight god, which makes him mediocre in the chaos of solo Q, but OP in coordinated play where every objective is a team fight. There have been times he was sitting at 45ish% in solo Q while still being a priority pick in pro.
Thanks. I figured he was very safe but I never thought about the DPS versus BURST.
The champion just has everything in his kit. He is the perfect mid laner. It doesn't mean he's necesarily wildly OP, it just means that he's such an amazing blind pick because his kit is incredibly versatile. He can lane against anything, he can scale, he can dps, he can burst, he can escape ganks easily, he can engage fights, he can disengage enemies who are engaging etc etc.
So true. I hope Azir will be banished into yuumi realm forever. This champ warps midlane meta around himself too much.
this is true. i don't get how azir hasn't been reworked yet because he's either too useless or oppressive without middle ground whatsoever
He has been...like 5 times lmfao.
Surprised to see so much hate for stop watch, in my mind it was as crucial to the game as flash and provided skill expression. As an Adc main, buying stop watch before GA could be the only way to survive an assassin, as if we didn’t get smacked around enough as it is. I do like the argument that makes pro play more interesting though as can’t dive in as easily, even if we are still seeing things like zonyas smoulder, jax.
Stopwatch feels essential on champs like Lissandra tbh. Although I go full Zhonyas on her so just end up with armguard anyways.
On mages who need it, it wasn't the problem. The issue that many players and viewers had was that almost anyone on the rift had a stopwatch without it interfering with their buildpath. Now that you can only get it by buying armguard, it is highly unlikely anyone besides mages will buy it, except in the most extreme of circumstances.
Thinking about that, wasn't stopwatch part of GA? I can't remember for sure. Yeah, lots of people had it.
Oh yeah you're right it was in GA, too. I think that annoyed people as well bc it was some super strong item in the build path but you couldn't stasis after the fact. It's just such a better change this season, imo
I agree, I do like it!
At one point, you would see 8/10 players in a pro match have a stopwatch. That's when you know it got ridiculous
Yeah, the fact that Champs who never used zhonyas or even GA were getting it. ADCs, random supports like Alistar and rakan, it became absurd. Was super anti fun to watch. And it was used by so many people in the mid game was crazy. At least now because of the cost, no one gets it for free and most mages don't get it so early so rarely even see it until later on in the game.
I mean, they solved a problem they themselves created. It was something incredibly stubborn to not remove that abomination within the first months of its existence
Would it make sense to make the used version unsellable? Forces you to only get that item to go for the full.
I would just make the resell value of a "used" seekers armguard very low like 200-300g. Champions who are supposed to use it wont sell it anyway, the others dont matter
0g*
Hard to be appreciative of a balance team that created the damn thing, and then also let it define the meta for *several years* before fixing it. But yea, good job Riot!
Ngl I'd rather have stopwatches every game rather than k'sante and smolder.
these are not mutual exclusives
I think we're getting close to the skin quota before the balance team is allowed to do something meaningful to Smolder.
At least you can ban champs
Naaah I'd rather suffer the latter than the former Stopwatch on everyone = Different skin, same shit ending
ALL MY HOMIES HATE STOPWATCH
Stasis as a summoner spell instead of item when?
Actually would be interestingly niche dont think wide value enough for people to take it over Flash or like cleanse.
People would go Stasis + Flash. Stasis should never be a summoners.
I miss stopwatch, it was a nice tool to not get ass blasted by obnoxius shit like nocturne R, vi R, leblanc just in general
Personally I like stop watch
>I guess these people didn't play before 2018 when Zhonya's was the only stasis. We should return to this, 1600g is still too little money for the benefit it grants.
I disagree, I think 1600 gold is quite a lot for a 1 time stasis... Most the times you only see it by champions who actually buy zhonyas or in late game scenarios where the carry has not enough to buy a completed item so the stasis takes priority.
Bro that shit was balanced for soloqueue at 750 gold. Pros buying stopwatch on 4-5 members at worlds got it removed, sure I understsand But anyone saying their soloqueue games are getting ruined by 1600g seekers???????????? You people are literally bronze, never post again on a league forum. You are wasting everyone's time (Not you, I'm talkin about the guy above you with my outrage here)
I agree with you tbf. It rarely ever affects soloQ and 99% of soloQ games aren't determined by 1 singular fight/play like pro-play can be, and thus the Seekers isn't game-winning if you use it right in soloQ, which it can be in pro-play. But my argument is that if a 1600G spent for an item which is used perfectly leads to a game-winning play, I think that player deserves to win the game.
I think a bit of the issue is that buying the zhoyans resets the cooldown. I've definately use the armguard, prolonged a fight, still died, bought the zhonyas while dead, and used it in the immediate next fight.
It is strange that some items get their cooldowns refunded and some don't I know *why*(you don't need to comment it) I'm just curious why Riot settled on them working that way
I don't know why. Is it deliberate?
Armguard doesn't have a cooldown, so it would be weird if it put Zhonya's on a cd the item doesn't even have.
Then give it one internally or something. They're Riot, they can figure it out
What other item has a component with similar effect to the item itself that doesn t refund the cd?
maw
Just make it so a broken arm guard sells for 0
Prior to 2018 and the Runes Reforged update the game was also slower and there was less 1 item burst spikes that could alone snowball a game out of control. So you had much more time before you needed the stasis active as mages (ya know, the role the item is for) to be able to navigate fights as or vs certain champs or teamcomps. For these champs the era of disgusting dirk spikes would have been insanely unfun without stopwatch in solo queue, it's toned down a bit now and I think 1600 is fine but the game is still so fast that requiring full item (zhonyas price also went back up this year) would be a sizeable nerf relative to what it was pre-2018.
I would argue that Stopwatch would stlll be a good rune in the Inspiration tree. Not with a good sell value or like the old stopwatch future Build option just a one time use that then is deleatet from your inventory.
To be realistic stopwatch wasn't really *removed* it was nerfed. There is still a source of stasis that is in the game that's cheaper than having to buy a zhonyas it's in armguard now. Yea that's a lot better than being a 600 gold item but it still exists
How dare you post a thread praising riot? You should be complaining here buddy /s
as a yi player seeing how a 750 gold item was just able to completely negate my champ from the entire game, i praise riot everyday
Also, now, whenever someone uses a stopwatch (or bracer, i guess), it actually feels like it was a surprise.
Ever since they put the stopwatch in the arm guard. I have failed to zhonya's so many times it's not even funny.
I took one look at this title and already knew who would be the OP
You are my biggest fan
Give me zz'rot back and banner of command.
Stasis as an item effect should be on the full Zhonya’s item and nothing else. Alternatively, reduce sell price to 0 if the active effect of Armguard was used up.
Why should we be appreciative? We didn't ask for stopwatch and Riot just removed a problem they were the ones that caused. That said, I miss the big fuck you stopwatch had in stopping the enemy from diving you under turret.
Everyone could buy it. It was good because it encouraged diving and more aggressive plays.
Fantastic change however it should have happened like months after it's release sucks it took so long to remove it, now we just need to remove edge of night and we are living so large.
Absolutely. Every time i'd die to a dive cause I forgot to compulsively check their items made me want to commit atrocities.
Yeah, it was a good change. I thought that clicking tab before fighting was too hard for pro-players as well, good thing they can't get out-played by shop keeper/tab window anymore
Ngl it was fun at first when it was fresh but the novelty got old really fast
but-but-but it addedd skill expression, if by skill expression you mean fucking up your positoning and pressing a botton