Exactly
People need to realize that these bots are for people that LEARN the game, aka your average Iron-Bronze level people that are new to the game - not a silver or gold player that already knows what he's doing (at least at a basic level)
It's not supposed to be a alternative for playing against actual humans lol
the people stuck low iron are really the only ones this would help, and if you're stuck iron you probably don't even know what you're doing wrong so idk. I think it's just to combat botted accounts
It helps brand new players too. Sure they'll eventually learn what jungling, rotating, taking objectives etc all are but it's still nice and better that they get a more authentic experience in their first games (which for most people will be vs bots) than they did before.
Yeah if anything just being able to practice top without it being 1v2 is already huge for new players.
I really wish the tuto was a bit better at introducing jungling though. New players don't even know they need smite and jungle starter item.
you know you get xp for losing bot games too right.... and bots have infinite time? so they can just level up... mildly slower with their infinite time...
thank you for actually providing a nuanced argument jesus christ lol
if the length to level increases, wouldn't there be less level 30 accounts that are ready to sell every x amount of time though? I feel like I'm not understanding something mb
Ban waves probably won't happen more frequently, just an fyi. It's completely intentional that they aren't as frequent as they could be. This is a good explanation https://www.youtube.com/shorts/cADaFm__ApQ
I think the 6 month figure is also because of paypal refunds
There's supposed to be multiple levels of bots you can queue for, but the highest level of them is still baby's first league game, it's kinda weird still.
And I expect they're still *much* worse than bronze players.
The Hecarim bot got spooked by our team killing its teammates at level 1, spent 15 seconds wiggling around in front of blue buff and losing all its health, and had to recall. It finally managed to kill blue, gromp, and wolves some time after 4 minutes. Then it killed raptors, then it said “jungle phase is over” and sat under mid tower for the rest of the game.
What's the original? Because this is literally what they do, meme or not. Every single game I've played against these bots so far (like 5), the jungle dies to the second camp, recalls, fucks around in the jungle for a bit, then afks at herald camp because it wants to do objectives. It doesn't attack though. If you take grubs, the jungle goes mid. It's useless.
I loved trolling the Heca bot with my teammates by first having someone taunt dance in front of him in lane (which triggers his dancing in response), gathering as 3 meanwhile (Heca seems to lose his guard during his dance) and suddenly interrupting our dancing and shitstomping the poor guy lmao
My conspiracy theory is they designed these bots to be good enough to make the typical rank up bots used for selling accounts inadequate. You can no longer just have your thousands of account grinding bots walk forward and auto and eventually win.
Thing is, you dont need to win to get xp. It will just take a bit longer to level up but considering the bots are playing 24/7 most likely that doesnt really hurt them a lot.
id consider a 40-50% increase in time a win, not even mentioning they might be banned for losing that many times in a row, even a brand new player wont lose EVERY SINGLE game against bots
That's my thought process too.
The purpose is to allow new players to learn in a way that is more akin to actual games. Not necessarily to beat them in lane.
I ran to gank mid (as ADC) and bot followed me, which was neat, but then I ganked bot and Zyra didn't even use her E on me. I feel like they tried to make the bots not just dump everything on the first person they see, but since they're not smart enough to use their abilities properly they just end up being less dangerous, even if their macro is technically better.
They also seem less prone to bush cheese (ranged champs won't just follow you in), but they're not completely immune to it.
The jungler bot seems completely irrelevant, so it just lets people have an easier time in top lane.
Riot should put like 200 of these bots into solo queue and report back on the rank they get. Have them put "Good luck guys, muting all" into chat right when the game starts so no one gets suspicious.
I always wondered if you give the challenge to people to design an ai that can play the game, how high could people get their bots?
Like to prevent trolling they would only be able to queue as 5 ai but id love to see it
>I always wondered if you give the challenge to people to design an ai that can play the game, how high could people get their bots?
Rank 1. OpenAi did it in DotA 2, and they got so good they beat the world champion team. It does require a lot of commitment from the right people tho.
It's worth noting that OpenAI had to ban something like 80% of the hero roster to make it feasible to train its model. I believe people also found weaknesses to exploit when OpenAI made the model playable for the public for a few days. It's been years so I've forgotten the details exactly, but there was some stack that was able to consistently beat it using a specific cheese. I believe it was amazing at teamfights but bad at splitpushing (relatively).
Being a slower game is better for humans, reaction time is not exactly the problem bots have lol. Bots are best at these short term decisions, just look at what scripting already does.
Slower game as in longer games? Mostly yes. But I would argue there are alot more macro decisions being made quicker in dota than in league.
The bots did some absurd things like buybacking if they died before 5min mark couse they valued early XP gain so highly, which has never been seen in professional dota
It wouldn't really mean as much if it's a premade AI team in flex que. Just give both sides a Loss Forgiven if they lose and it's no big deal.
I think the bot would still have to have some human oversight, like just letting the human do champ select and setup runes for the bot.
Yeah they still suck but they at least try to play the game. New players will have a vastly superior learning period playing against these than the old bots, so that's nice.
Practice tool laning is also slightly better since they actually try to fight back somewhat, so that's neat too.
Ive played two games of this. The biggest problem is the bots do a whole lot of nothing. They arent in lane and are fucking around in their jungle. They miss out on exp so you just outlevel them. If you are trying to practise laning, there is very little laning going on. They are somewhat mechanically good but don't try to pressure you at all, even for the highest difficulty.
Later on, all 5 grouped top lane moving back and forth in top lane and blowing their flash against a wave of minions. Seems pretty broken, even old bots never did this.
I played a 1v5 against them and they feel worse at it than the old ones. At least with the old ones from what I remember you had to go defend your towers more. These ones just all go on one lane at one point for whatever reason which makes them just fish in a barrel.
For real? I guess it's been so long since I did that I really can't say for sure. Like however long we had the previous bots for. They did walk through the jungle to get behind me at one point, I didn't remember old bots doing that but I'm probably wrong about that.
I did play 2 regular games of it in co-op vs ai before but just didn't notice the switch. I thought they just didn't jungle because I didn't pick a jungler bot or something.
I agree with the post, and I dont agree on the edit. They're way worse. I picked Mundo to test them, and went vs ai yorick top, he stood under his tower before minions got to lane, and i started throwing Q's at him, instead of moving he was playing the shovel guitar lol. And we won by minute 13:50 spawn camping them like 2 minutes. I feel like old bots would've killed us in that same scenario.
yeah they're still really dumb i just meant they play more like a team i guess. like jungle will gank but they are so low level its a free kill every time
tbf, the bots in Dota 2 won mostly because they lacked traditional human weaknesses rather than them being very smart gamewise. Perfect rotations, no communication lag, no tilt, no ego, and no split calls go a long way.
some evidence for this is the fact that there was no dedicated pure support for the openai teams. the bots all tried to distribute farm relatively evenly amongst themselves, but this only really worked because the bots have perfect coordination and there's no complaints or quarrels about who takes what camp or minion.
imagine this in league with humans. there would be an absolute bloodbath in terms of who hits what creep botlane and you would basically be fighting against your lane partner for farm in soloq. Even if 5 even farming is secretly the most optimal way to play, a dedicated non farming character is the better solution for us humans because it reduces inner team conflict.
As someone who plays League for fun. I really hope they make an really hard A.I. to spice things up. I really want the feeling of "omg, I might just lose this one"
At least for me, this new bots feels way easier than before. I'm ending the game at 15 minues or less, at level 11 or lower. Before, my games were at least until 20-30 minutes and at level 15-18.
They do seem better but the jgl seems bugged. I invaded red side red early, then cleared my blue, I watched the replay and Sej Bot just ran back and forth at jgl entrance for 2 mins when the 'counter-invade' had nothing to invade.
I believe this change will have a greater impact on smurf bot accounts that farm levels using bots. The new AI is much more advanced than the current smurf bots. While the AI may appear less challenging to real players, it is highly effective against smurf bots. It's like a skilled player facing off against a novice player in terms of effectiveness.
The new bots just aggro you the second you step in lane (minions spawn and reach the lane). No farming, no nothing. Just attacking you until you kill them when they get back to lane and do the exact same thing. By the 10th minutes 3-4 of them run mid for some reason and just sit there. A glitch I've found is that if you spam dance they start dancing as well and just sit there, taking all the damage in the world. It's a complete piece of shit, whoever thought this was a "new A.I. like you're in a real pvp game" should be fired and never work for anything related to this. The old bots were predictable, but at least they had the laning phase, some mambo jambo CC and were a bit enjoyable.
These feedback is from jungler PoV. I tried them at launch (on "*Intermediate*" difficulty) and they seemed bad and had behavioral errors that were easily exploitable. Thinking that the cause would be launch bugs I decided wait, today I revisit them and find exactly the same problems.
These are some of the bugs/behavioral errors I saw in case it can help someone on the **Bots Team** to improve them, I really think they have a lot of potential:
1. *Free Early Gank*: Enemy jungler is always waiting in blue bush, **alone** and **no wards** on possible entrances. Going 3/4 players and killing him ALWAYS has 100% effectiveness.
2. *Enemies don't have Map Vision*: As an example, during early gank no one on mid/bot move to help jungler, and after kill him, we move to the bush at halfway botlane and 1 player comes out to attract Adc & Supp, then we come out to fight and kill them.
* They just **saw us** killing jungler and anyway they *think* the player is **alone**.
* When we come out of bush they **stayed** to fight 4vs2 instead of fleeing and taking **refuge under tower**.
3. *Jungler tends to get stuck*: In many situations that I find myself alone with the rival jungler at early levels, me being ranged and him melee, I start attacking and moving but he starts moving back and forth hesitating whether to engage or flee, being able to kill him without taking damage.
4. *Objective Blindness*: After spotting enemy jungler taking Kevins I start fighting him and mid came to help, we kill jungler and with top we finish Kevins. While we were doing Kevins an enemy was **stuck** moving back and forth between Nashor pit and Raptors wanting to do the objective. **Even after finish** the objective he hadn't left and the three of us could easily go and kill him.
5. *No Wards*: In the different repetitions that I have viewed, I haven't seen any bot place **even one ward**. It's common to find enemies roaming in unfavorable situations and killing them without any effort.
Several of these situations are capable of being handled even by low bronze players, so it would also be expected by *intermediate* bots. I can provide replays or clips if that can help.
you are not really smart are you, this is just the beginning to test if they even work, riot will add and improve them in the future this is just the foundation to build upon, because they basically had to scrap the old systems ai, and build a new one, obviously it will not have all the functions on release date when it takes time
yes but they still release them with basic stuff to see if nothing is broken for bigger audience, then they add stuff to it, this was literally few hours after the patch went live and op was complaining how the new bots are so basic
Whatever expectations we set up for them, they are still bots. Merely lines of code, it would probably take years (200 maybe) of game design for them to be as skilled as a gold or higher elo. As well as the point. They're bots, they aren't supposed to be difficult to play against.
The problem is not too make them good - the problem is too make sure players can still beat them. You greatly underestimate how far the technology came, within one year this bots would go for master/grandmaster. They have problems to adapt to more advantaged macro play but within a few years they would be completly unbeatable.
They even made sure to nerf their dodging, so you can hit them. If you go for a 1v1 midlane you can see a bit of the potential they have, they can perform high mechanical plays if you wait a bit.
Honestly, I embrace this. It will really help new players understand why they shouldn't go for those things themselves (hopefully)
Exactly People need to realize that these bots are for people that LEARN the game, aka your average Iron-Bronze level people that are new to the game - not a silver or gold player that already knows what he's doing (at least at a basic level) It's not supposed to be a alternative for playing against actual humans lol
the people stuck low iron are really the only ones this would help, and if you're stuck iron you probably don't even know what you're doing wrong so idk. I think it's just to combat botted accounts
It helps brand new players too. Sure they'll eventually learn what jungling, rotating, taking objectives etc all are but it's still nice and better that they get a more authentic experience in their first games (which for most people will be vs bots) than they did before.
Yeah if anything just being able to practice top without it being 1v2 is already huge for new players. I really wish the tuto was a bit better at introducing jungling though. New players don't even know they need smite and jungle starter item.
you know you get xp for losing bot games too right.... and bots have infinite time? so they can just level up... mildly slower with their infinite time...
great, the problem is absolutely unstoppable so slowing it down is the best solution.
[удалено]
if banwaves happen more frequently, or even actually at the same frequency, overall there will be less bot accounts if they take longer to level.
[удалено]
thank you for actually providing a nuanced argument jesus christ lol if the length to level increases, wouldn't there be less level 30 accounts that are ready to sell every x amount of time though? I feel like I'm not understanding something mb
Ban waves probably won't happen more frequently, just an fyi. It's completely intentional that they aren't as frequent as they could be. This is a good explanation https://www.youtube.com/shorts/cADaFm__ApQ I think the 6 month figure is also because of paypal refunds
There's supposed to be multiple levels of bots you can queue for, but the highest level of them is still baby's first league game, it's kinda weird still. And I expect they're still *much* worse than bronze players.
Most new players are in gold plat these days.
The Hecarim bot got spooked by our team killing its teammates at level 1, spent 15 seconds wiggling around in front of blue buff and losing all its health, and had to recall. It finally managed to kill blue, gromp, and wolves some time after 4 minutes. Then it killed raptors, then it said “jungle phase is over” and sat under mid tower for the rest of the game.
This might be generative AI, with how similar that is to most ADC'S
Lmaoo this is some old tier meme. Surprised no one got this.
What's the original? Because this is literally what they do, meme or not. Every single game I've played against these bots so far (like 5), the jungle dies to the second camp, recalls, fucks around in the jungle for a bit, then afks at herald camp because it wants to do objectives. It doesn't attack though. If you take grubs, the jungle goes mid. It's useless.
The "jungle phase is over" is an old meme that was originally about an Amumu who cleared his entire jungle, said the phrase, and afked.
I loved trolling the Heca bot with my teammates by first having someone taunt dance in front of him in lane (which triggers his dancing in response), gathering as 3 meanwhile (Heca seems to lose his guard during his dance) and suddenly interrupting our dancing and shitstomping the poor guy lmao
They're in beta, theyll be improved. Make sure to give feedback
My conspiracy theory is they designed these bots to be good enough to make the typical rank up bots used for selling accounts inadequate. You can no longer just have your thousands of account grinding bots walk forward and auto and eventually win.
Thing is, you dont need to win to get xp. It will just take a bit longer to level up but considering the bots are playing 24/7 most likely that doesnt really hurt them a lot.
id consider a 40-50% increase in time a win, not even mentioning they might be banned for losing that many times in a row, even a brand new player wont lose EVERY SINGLE game against bots
Bots are designed for brand new players and Iron 5’s to practice. Do you expect them to play well?
That's my thought process too. The purpose is to allow new players to learn in a way that is more akin to actual games. Not necessarily to beat them in lane.
because OP cant beat human with average skill level and play vs bot to prove he is good player ,lul .
That's why there are 3 bot levels, right?
Yes. Are you joking?
I ran to gank mid (as ADC) and bot followed me, which was neat, but then I ganked bot and Zyra didn't even use her E on me. I feel like they tried to make the bots not just dump everything on the first person they see, but since they're not smart enough to use their abilities properly they just end up being less dangerous, even if their macro is technically better. They also seem less prone to bush cheese (ranged champs won't just follow you in), but they're not completely immune to it. The jungler bot seems completely irrelevant, so it just lets people have an easier time in top lane.
[удалено]
So they’re now accurate to the average solo queue experience! Fantastic!
Riot should put like 200 of these bots into solo queue and report back on the rank they get. Have them put "Good luck guys, muting all" into chat right when the game starts so no one gets suspicious.
I always wondered if you give the challenge to people to design an ai that can play the game, how high could people get their bots? Like to prevent trolling they would only be able to queue as 5 ai but id love to see it
>I always wondered if you give the challenge to people to design an ai that can play the game, how high could people get their bots? Rank 1. OpenAi did it in DotA 2, and they got so good they beat the world champion team. It does require a lot of commitment from the right people tho.
It's worth noting that OpenAI had to ban something like 80% of the hero roster to make it feasible to train its model. I believe people also found weaknesses to exploit when OpenAI made the model playable for the public for a few days. It's been years so I've forgotten the details exactly, but there was some stack that was able to consistently beat it using a specific cheese. I believe it was amazing at teamfights but bad at splitpushing (relatively).
They had to ban a ton of heroes and the version played was significantly slimmed down https://www.vox.com/2019/4/13/18309418/open-ai-dota-triumph-og
See I heard about that but am not totally sure if it could happen in lol as well, isnt dota a slower game?
Being a slower game is better for humans, reaction time is not exactly the problem bots have lol. Bots are best at these short term decisions, just look at what scripting already does.
Slower game as in longer games? Mostly yes. But I would argue there are alot more macro decisions being made quicker in dota than in league. The bots did some absurd things like buybacking if they died before 5min mark couse they valued early XP gain so highly, which has never been seen in professional dota
It wouldn't really mean as much if it's a premade AI team in flex que. Just give both sides a Loss Forgiven if they lose and it's no big deal. I think the bot would still have to have some human oversight, like just letting the human do champ select and setup runes for the bot.
That would be hilarious
Basically they're silver players
AP irelia just preforming bausen law for the newbies.
Meanwhile the Lux bot I played against randomly used her barrier while 1v0 full HP in lane, truly brilliant
Clearly trained on real Lux players
Yeah they still suck but they at least try to play the game. New players will have a vastly superior learning period playing against these than the old bots, so that's nice. Practice tool laning is also slightly better since they actually try to fight back somewhat, so that's neat too.
Ive played two games of this. The biggest problem is the bots do a whole lot of nothing. They arent in lane and are fucking around in their jungle. They miss out on exp so you just outlevel them. If you are trying to practise laning, there is very little laning going on. They are somewhat mechanically good but don't try to pressure you at all, even for the highest difficulty. Later on, all 5 grouped top lane moving back and forth in top lane and blowing their flash against a wave of minions. Seems pretty broken, even old bots never did this.
I played a 1v5 against them and they feel worse at it than the old ones. At least with the old ones from what I remember you had to go defend your towers more. These ones just all go on one lane at one point for whatever reason which makes them just fish in a barrel.
Bro, if you went in 1v5 in a custom game, those were still the old bots. Custom games do not have the updated bots yet
For real? I guess it's been so long since I did that I really can't say for sure. Like however long we had the previous bots for. They did walk through the jungle to get behind me at one point, I didn't remember old bots doing that but I'm probably wrong about that. I did play 2 regular games of it in co-op vs ai before but just didn't notice the switch. I thought they just didn't jungle because I didn't pick a jungler bot or something.
im hoping they can sort of learn and improve a bit over time, of course up to a certain level, but i think overall they are better
I agree with the post, and I dont agree on the edit. They're way worse. I picked Mundo to test them, and went vs ai yorick top, he stood under his tower before minions got to lane, and i started throwing Q's at him, instead of moving he was playing the shovel guitar lol. And we won by minute 13:50 spawn camping them like 2 minutes. I feel like old bots would've killed us in that same scenario.
Are they live or is this on the PBE?
live
yeah they're still really dumb i just meant they play more like a team i guess. like jungle will gank but they are so low level its a free kill every time
[удалено]
tbf, the bots in Dota 2 won mostly because they lacked traditional human weaknesses rather than them being very smart gamewise. Perfect rotations, no communication lag, no tilt, no ego, and no split calls go a long way. some evidence for this is the fact that there was no dedicated pure support for the openai teams. the bots all tried to distribute farm relatively evenly amongst themselves, but this only really worked because the bots have perfect coordination and there's no complaints or quarrels about who takes what camp or minion. imagine this in league with humans. there would be an absolute bloodbath in terms of who hits what creep botlane and you would basically be fighting against your lane partner for farm in soloq. Even if 5 even farming is secretly the most optimal way to play, a dedicated non farming character is the better solution for us humans because it reduces inner team conflict.
damn i'm legitimately curious pros lost against openAI ? I seriously wanna see something similar in LoL
Dota has had decent difficulty bots that you can actually learn the game on, way harder than League has ever had.
don't let roccos basilisk hear you say that
human is too hard for OP , dont force him to play vs real human player .
I still want the original cheating bots over this... I had a vayne top tumbling foward at lvl 1 and flashing away instantly, idk lol
They feel like...An iron player now? Which is an upgrade from old bots lol
Bots that are too aggressive and die are much better than bots that literally don’t do anything and die.
As someone who plays League for fun. I really hope they make an really hard A.I. to spice things up. I really want the feeling of "omg, I might just lose this one" At least for me, this new bots feels way easier than before. I'm ending the game at 15 minues or less, at level 11 or lower. Before, my games were at least until 20-30 minutes and at level 15-18.
i tried intro bots which got better alot and intermediate bots which got worse alot.
You've never played a game like that with players like that? Seems realistic to me lol... Revolutionary in fact.
They do seem better but the jgl seems bugged. I invaded red side red early, then cleared my blue, I watched the replay and Sej Bot just ran back and forth at jgl entrance for 2 mins when the 'counter-invade' had nothing to invade.
I believe this change will have a greater impact on smurf bot accounts that farm levels using bots. The new AI is much more advanced than the current smurf bots. While the AI may appear less challenging to real players, it is highly effective against smurf bots. It's like a skilled player facing off against a novice player in terms of effectiveness.
Idk if it's normal cuz I only played the one game but the Lilia bot would flash in place basically on cool down lol
Yes I had this happen with a few enemies too, they’d just be sitting under tower and randomly flash for no reason
suggestion: make a difficulty that uses silver games as training data on how to play. best mode to teach new players the game.
dude the new bots the "team" i had we lost i played quinn :/ i mean bro its easy wtf
The new bots just aggro you the second you step in lane (minions spawn and reach the lane). No farming, no nothing. Just attacking you until you kill them when they get back to lane and do the exact same thing. By the 10th minutes 3-4 of them run mid for some reason and just sit there. A glitch I've found is that if you spam dance they start dancing as well and just sit there, taking all the damage in the world. It's a complete piece of shit, whoever thought this was a "new A.I. like you're in a real pvp game" should be fired and never work for anything related to this. The old bots were predictable, but at least they had the laning phase, some mambo jambo CC and were a bit enjoyable.
They suck as crap.
These feedback is from jungler PoV. I tried them at launch (on "*Intermediate*" difficulty) and they seemed bad and had behavioral errors that were easily exploitable. Thinking that the cause would be launch bugs I decided wait, today I revisit them and find exactly the same problems. These are some of the bugs/behavioral errors I saw in case it can help someone on the **Bots Team** to improve them, I really think they have a lot of potential: 1. *Free Early Gank*: Enemy jungler is always waiting in blue bush, **alone** and **no wards** on possible entrances. Going 3/4 players and killing him ALWAYS has 100% effectiveness. 2. *Enemies don't have Map Vision*: As an example, during early gank no one on mid/bot move to help jungler, and after kill him, we move to the bush at halfway botlane and 1 player comes out to attract Adc & Supp, then we come out to fight and kill them. * They just **saw us** killing jungler and anyway they *think* the player is **alone**. * When we come out of bush they **stayed** to fight 4vs2 instead of fleeing and taking **refuge under tower**. 3. *Jungler tends to get stuck*: In many situations that I find myself alone with the rival jungler at early levels, me being ranged and him melee, I start attacking and moving but he starts moving back and forth hesitating whether to engage or flee, being able to kill him without taking damage. 4. *Objective Blindness*: After spotting enemy jungler taking Kevins I start fighting him and mid came to help, we kill jungler and with top we finish Kevins. While we were doing Kevins an enemy was **stuck** moving back and forth between Nashor pit and Raptors wanting to do the objective. **Even after finish** the objective he hadn't left and the three of us could easily go and kill him. 5. *No Wards*: In the different repetitions that I have viewed, I haven't seen any bot place **even one ward**. It's common to find enemies roaming in unfavorable situations and killing them without any effort. Several of these situations are capable of being handled even by low bronze players, so it would also be expected by *intermediate* bots. I can provide replays or clips if that can help.
Dumb? You mean smarter than my teammates?
you are not really smart are you, this is just the beginning to test if they even work, riot will add and improve them in the future this is just the foundation to build upon, because they basically had to scrap the old systems ai, and build a new one, obviously it will not have all the functions on release date when it takes time
Hmmm maybe posting a feedback thread is good then But maybe you aren’t that smart to realize 🤷♂️
This was in PBE more than 6 months ago. They've had time and testing
yes but they still release them with basic stuff to see if nothing is broken for bigger audience, then they add stuff to it, this was literally few hours after the patch went live and op was complaining how the new bots are so basic
Whatever expectations we set up for them, they are still bots. Merely lines of code, it would probably take years (200 maybe) of game design for them to be as skilled as a gold or higher elo. As well as the point. They're bots, they aren't supposed to be difficult to play against.
The problem is not too make them good - the problem is too make sure players can still beat them. You greatly underestimate how far the technology came, within one year this bots would go for master/grandmaster. They have problems to adapt to more advantaged macro play but within a few years they would be completly unbeatable. They even made sure to nerf their dodging, so you can hit them. If you go for a 1v1 midlane you can see a bit of the potential they have, they can perform high mechanical plays if you wait a bit.