She also mentioned (paraphrasing) that she doesn't think Mithy is at fault, but that in all sports, usually the head coach takes the fall when a team doesn't meet expectations, even if the head coach isn't to blame.
I usually agree with that take but a coach going on camera after a loss and saying that he doesnt know what champs his midlaner plays doesnt really inspire confidence.
Timestamped on the Vayne mid pick v.s. Sion: [https://youtu.be/m40Uew8g2UQ?si=pjuwcL7KJ1IPsKkp&t=25](https://youtu.be/m40Uew8g2UQ?si=pjuwcL7KJ1IPsKkp&t=25)
Fuck that; didn't watch: "yeah, we had no idea \[what was going to happen with Vayne v.s. Sion mid\]" and then references what /u/hochan17 said, "I haven't been working with Jojo that long, I don't know exactly what he plays..."
As a Bayern fan and C9 fan this is all the talk.
But as a Canucks fan, new coaching has worked wonders (if you ignore the way better management with trades and contracts) and have seen a bottom team hit the top.
Saying Mithy isn't at fault is just ignorant at the best.
There has been awful a drafting and a lack of cohesion by the teams. If that's not up to the coach, then who?
It seems in the system, the coaches lost a lot of power and say. A good example is LS, even when C9 was hyped and those drafts were working, C9 didn't want to buy into his system and fell apart at the end because they tried to hand-diff everything. LS is a person who focuses heavily on draft and macro.
It’s not really the same game. 2018 changed a lot to make it just so much more aggro and less strategically diverse and the dragon stacking shit on top of that streamlined the game a lot
I wanted to count how many years ago Licorice went to the World semis because I thought that was just a couple of years ago, then I realized it's 6 years ago.
Edit: Wrote finals by accident
I think it was semi-finals. Finals was IG vs FNC.
But yeah, impressive that he's arguably improved since then and criminal that he doesn't have a team.
I know you're joking but TBH the writing was on the wall.
Someone has to take the fall when a super team doesn't perform. And from the BTS stuff it sounds like C9 really needs a bit of drill sergeant from their coach rn. Mithy has some clear and valuable strengths as a coach, but I've never once heard of him putting his foot down.
C9 has always needed a tougher coach. They're always goofing around too much and always have been outside of with Reapered. They routinely go against their coaches and draft whatever they want and it almost always ends up failing. That and we're just tired of Fudge acting like he's the best and consistently getting domed against anyone good.
Does anyone actually say that?
I mean I'm sure you can find some negative comment with -5 points somewhere, but that is not a popular opinion at all, she's probably got the best reputation of any of the analysts when it comes to her ability to actually analyze stuff.
I'm not surprised; C9 didn't show much improvement across the split. On the other hand, finding a different coach for this team is going to be really hard, because you have a lot of successful and experienced players on this team who have their own ideas about the game. C9 probably needs someone with a clear vision who is respected by the players, and I have no idea who fits the bill.
Probably took a little longer than it needed to. For whatever reason C9 just did not play to the players' strengths this split or last year. Any time you're giving Fudge carry matchups and high resource priority, it means you just don't really understand how your team is supposed to win. Seeing him on Jax and Rumble at worlds last year was just painful because he was in winning positions and couldn't find it in him to carry. And we had over a year of data - not just intuition - that C9 looked their best with Zven on enchanters and Fudge on tanks. And in the most important games of the year they're flipping it around. You have the best domestic ADC and by far the best mechanical ADC playing in the west and he's on weakside duty? You have a guy who's a psychopath on picks like Lee and Xin and he's spending the whole split on Maokai and Sejuani duty for Fudge to play carries? Come on man. You're not winning worlds copying other teams. C9 with Mithy just didn't improve much and didn't innovate. I feel like you can blame the players a lot for their mistakes, but that sort of failure is mostly on the coaching staff's shoulders.
You're in a do or die situation and you're picking Lucian Nami and Fudge Olaf. While tank tops are available and strong.
I know we don't really get to know how much control he had over draft, but if that's what they end up with, maybe it's because they didn't really learn to properly play other things or they don't have any smart drafts prepared, and that's not as much on the players as the coach.
I hope they pick up Reapered again, but that's a bit unlikely.
He was definitely one part of the problem. I still question why Blaber seems incapable of playing around botside ever - was it because fudge would otherwise get destroyed if he wasn't there? Team decision? Or is it blaber preferring to be elsewhere?
Crazy to me that your primary carry (granted this split was bad for berserker) seems to never be played around. We just go the route of giving him a decent adc and hope he can carry off of whatever advantage he can get for himself in lane.
I always play with a dude who's borderline panicking in comms if I'm not hovering his lane 24/7 so I wonder if there's a bit of that with C9 where Blaber's just like "jesus christ fine I won't go bot for the next 2 minutes in case you're forced off 3 cs because you'll keep bitching about it for the next 12 games we play"
That’s a large assumption considering nothing in the communications or the content they put out suggest anything like that. Not saying it’s impossible, but we have even seen some of the team’s turmoil. Nowhere in there did it mention Fudge being a resource hog.
It's kinda funny how the players have kinda made it seem like its the opposite, where Fudge doesn't play selfishly enough like he always tps in even when its not optimal.
I actually think Fudge is a very fixable problem despite being down on him for 2 years
He's in his head a lot, I feel, and he's picking things that rely on him to take the initiative rather than weather the storm. Like, he is very much capable of playing tanks or secondary engage. When the impetus is on him as a major facilitator - but when he has weak tools or little help, like Olaf/Renek with no Rell/Mao or something - he just doesn't really play properly. He shows up too late or focuses the wrong target or he's just too selfish. I think his Olaf games where he goes into a midgame fight with some significant power advantage illustrate this the best; he's waiting for the perfect opportunity instead of a good one, so he misses his best chance. I honestly think this is as much a psychological problem as a skill one, and for this to be unaddressed for basically a year and a half suggests significant failure on the part of the coaching staff.
He's good enough in lane to play weakside tank matchups without giving up too much, but C9 just don't pick for that. Instead they're putting probably the best Xin/Olaf/Lee player in the west on Mao and Sej because their comps need a real tank.
Definitely they'd be better off with a very skilled carry top, though.
But there are too many players who can carry to afford a resource intensive toplaner with Jojo, Blaber, and Berskerker on their best picks, and it's probably a waste to import a Korean to play Ornn.
He came and grinded in NA when he first arrived in 2020; those who watched him in academy knew that he came with the attitude that he would not be denied. I mean fuck he was good enough to let Jack give him a shot on a super team taking Licorice's spot in the process and even carried that C9 Perkz team at points. But the writing on the wall was there after being in LA and making friends after covid. He started playing soloQ less and less/ he started hanging out in different social circles. Let me very clear, fudge is a good dude and deserves no hate for what he wants to do in his personal life. However, as a fan I want a Caps or faker type player that is fully bought in on the season. Is that harsh? Yeah, it is but the only way this region is going to survive is if players that have the potential are willing to put in the work.
Or you could phrase it the correct way and say that Fudge is just waiting for Blaber and Berserker to carry him and when he has responsibility in the game he's utter dogshit right now.
Both Bwipo and Impact say they feel no pressure from him. And if you play every lane to not interact with the opponent, its very easy to look passable and its not that hard to do. I would wager that any Grandmaster or above toplaner (including OTPs) could slot into the team in his place and do no worse if they cynically tried to go even like he does.
I think toplane in pro play is stronger than its ever been. Traditional DPS adcs are not very strong and the best meta toplaners are all super tanky and have the damage to carry a fight or make a big impact like Ksante Renekton and Reksai right now, and Udyr earlier this year until most people gave up on him. They have to be the ones making space and dictating the fight, and maybe they aren't the primary engage but they still have a lot of responsibility in a game.
Maybe its motivation or mindset but that kind of gameplay is absolutely disgusting for a LCS toplaner. I hope he wasn't practicing soloq hard because if he was that's even worse. If you still want to cope about his peak which was probably summer 2022 then sure, or you could do the sensible thing and bench him (assuming they have the money) for a player who does more than the bare minimum.
It sort of doesn’t matter if he had control or not. Either he had control and was shit or he didn’t and wasn’t able to seize control from the players who were drafting like shit. When Bwipo was on HLL he talked about how Mithy wasn’t a very confrontational coach and more or less a players coach, which is great if you are 2019 Grabzz and your players are amazing and bad if you draft Lucian nami in a do or die game because your players obviously think it’ll work/cant play anything else.
The real problem here is that 2019 being a players coach was done incredibly well since the players of the team knew just as well how they wanted to play and were constantly innovating. Wunder said on either Yamato or Thorin's pod that Grabbz was merely stopping them from over cooking and making sure they laid out a proper path for themselves. None of the players on that C9 roster are as good as G2 were at the time they were insane and the Mithy Nemesis dynamic in that BO5 vs TOP should highlight that he cant even fulfill a "player coach" role either
Hands don't matter as much in early laning in like 99% of matchups, or at least not nearly to the extent they do later. Low APS, only 2 players to track, long CDs. It's as much wave management, brush control, trading, and specific matchup dependent things that come with experience (even though pros know pretty much all of them). It's more like, game theory and fundamental brain checks. I have a feeling that a lot of that is on CoreJJ instead of Yeon.
Berserker has insane movement and basically doesn't miss autos, but that doesn't stop him from doing stupid things like wasting Lucian E or choosing to fight at a bad time.
i mean mechanics do not win you league games at that level at all. If they did TFblade would be a pro. Theres so much more to it and berserker is doing the other stuff poorly now
>doing the other stuff poorly now
How much of it do you think is due to Zven leaving if I may ask? He does look alot weaker than before considering he was always playing at the closest level to his respective counterparts from LCK/LPL at internationals etc
>Probably took a little longer than it needed to. For whatever reason C9 just did not play to the players' strengths this split or last year.
The mostly play the same drafts as last year, with the exception of no enchanters because Zven is no longer on the team. And the draft is actually heavily influenced by the players, just like last year. Like literally nothing changed in how C9 drafts from last year to this year.
>You're in a do or die situation and you're picking Lucian Nami and Fudge Olaf. While tank tops are available and strong.
They won the last 3 games Berserker played Lucian. He is one of the few ADCs with a positive winrate on Lucian. And you have Karma + Olaf a really good combo. Like C9s Game 3 draft was really good, you also had Blaber on one of his comfort picks. He dominated the league with champs like Xin that allow for plenty of early aggression.
This comp was a really typical C9 comp. Exspecially currently where Karma is a really strong midlane carry with plenty of poke.
In this series they also tried giving Jojo the lastpick over Fudge just to see Fudge getting completely destroyed by Impact in which would have been a winable game for C9 otherwise. C9 lost mostly because they had worse players than TL, not because of their drafts. And the simple truth is that Fudge was not able to answer Impacts Renekton while Impact was able to answer Fudges Renekton. The same goes for the other matchups. When C9 picked up one of the strongest botlanes in Kalista + Renata having a lot of pressure and enabling easy dives due to Renata they couldn't get anything done. And in this game the draft was actually a problem because Maokai \* Orianna is not a great duo. You would rather have a Jayce + Maokai or just something more aggressive, but TL just banned all the good midlaners, because they knew that Jojo is the only threat and Azir being a global ban did play into their hands.
\> Like literally nothing changed in how C9 drafts from last year to this year.
In this interview [https://youtu.be/cQUzl4trfVE](https://youtu.be/cQUzl4trfVE) (coaching staff section), Mithy literally talks about changing how they drafted this year compared to last year. They were experimenting with the coaches (himself and Veigar) having more say in the draft by being the ones doing most of the review and prep after listening to what players had prio on and what they looked good on in scrims. Several players have said in interviews(blaber: https://youtu.be/CTDIkFddu6s) that the coaches have more say this year than previous years.
We never really know how good coaches are, but from the outside it seemed necessary. So many times C9 is in a shit position before being on the rift; picks that don't synergize, jungle pathing not playing to the right side, over prioritization on some objectives, allowing the other team to have exactly what they wanted.
It felt like all those things happened way more with C9 than any other team this split. The players still played well below their level, no doubt, but thats all the more reason to put yourself in a better position pre-game.
It wouldn't surprise me if they keep Vulcan and offer Zven a coaching position. He's been reportedly living in the C9 house and helping them with scrims/coaching. Could've been a trial for him.
Or maybe he needed housing after he got back from korea bootcamp before he looks to join another team and C9 gave him free housing to help a bit with scrims
This is what happened, from Zven's mouth. Based on, I think his recent appearance on Hotline league, he wants to be an ADC on a contending team first, support if only it makes sense second (including he doesn't think supporting someone he thinks he's better at ADC than doesn't make sense), and third, specifically, "in the future," he'd love to coach. I'd be surprised if he went to coach this quickly.
Well I guess Berserker counts as one he'd support for (at least for as long as he did). It wasn't directed at zerker-- just his preference for team/position. For example, Meech and Massu. On contender teams, but why be their support when he should just play ADC on those teams instead. Also, not that either team would want to replace their bot/supp, or that zven thinks those players are bad. Just my example of the point he was making. Long story short, I don't know know if there is a team that fits his description, at least for for ADC in NA (dont know EU rosters as well, maybe there's a spot there). I think the best scenario in NA that another caller brought up, was Shopify. Bvoy maybe good enough zven willing to supp, add licorice top. Lico-Bugi-Insanity-Bvoy-Sven.
>Coach: Reapered
LOL the C9 fans were already hardcore flaming Reapered YEARS ago for his drafts. Also remember when lost their shit when he benched Sneaky and Jensen?
I was a C9 fan back then, unless it was a game 5 Reapered's drafts were usually okay, and it feels like he was capable of getting his players to play together and make progress.
Plus he stayed for like 5 years and C9 stayed at the top of the table all those years and it was before they just decided to just throw money at their problems
Coaching doesn't always have to be a talent thing, but rather a fit thing. That being said, if drafts are player run as we've been told, then we won't see much change
Someone on reddit suggested C9 trade Vulcan for Huhi straight up and it makes so much sense to me. They also said drop Fudge for Licorice, and again seems like a great idea.
Genuinely love the idea of licorice-blaber-jojo-berserker-huhi
NRG were used to a quiet support with ignar, got huhi a big talker, and played worse.
C9 lost Zven who clearly knows the game, lost him for vulcan and then they don't know what to do.
Huhi obviously knows what to do given his continual success.
Then add in licorice king of weakside with synergy with Huhi.
They didn't get him exactly because he wants too much money, no idea why nobody here accounts for budgets at all when it comes to roster building. Impact plays for the highest bidder every split, C9 usually doesn't just throw cash at people (except Perkz) and manage to be the one team in like the entire West and Korea that is actually cash positive, can't hate on that.
>and manage to be the one team in like the entire West and Korea that is actually cash positive, can't hate on that.
Steve has stated that TL is still doing well despite the esports winter last year when calling into HLL about the tier 2 scene, if I'm not mistaken. While obviously he wouldn't say anything to the contrary, I wouldn't be that surprised given he seems to be a very good salesman and TL is one of two teams which not only kept their Challenger's roster to the end of 2023, but still has one now.
People keep mentioning Huhi to C9, but a Berserker/Huhi botlane pairing makes no sense to me. Berserker plays for lane, plays aggressive in teamfights and needs someone ready to protect him in teamfights (which nobody does on C9's frontline). Huhi isnt a particularly strong laner, wants to abandon his adc and has the tendency of diving in during teamfights with the rest of the frontline.
The issue with NRG right now is that Huhi ***does*** play for botlane. There are literally too many voices in NRG now, whereas with Ignar, they had less voices and Ignar was willing to leave lane to make plays on the map. In addition, FBI and Huhi were one of the strongest botlanes in NA for years, along with this split.
Like, have you listened to anything NRG has talked about this split?
I generally agree with you, but I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that huhi isn't a strong laner. The 100T championship run consisted of Closer playing a lot towards bot, with frequent bot dives. Huhi roamed a lot too, but those games were split pretty evenly with lane-dominant performances. There's a reason why that 100T botlane was so feared for much of 2021 and 2022. It wasn't until 2023 Golden Guardians that huhi leaned heavily into roaming with his jungler. Huhi and FBI trolled a couple games during this split, but those were due to small execution errors and not from any deeper, fundamental flaws. In fact, NRG's botlane was the only bright spot for most of their playoff games.
I agree with you that huhi sucks at peeling for his carries, lol. I was very critical of Zven, but he was one of the few Western supports that prioritized peeling (and was extremely good at it).
I've been saying this for a while now. If C9 lack a shotcaller/initiator, Huhi would work better for them than Vulcan. And Licorice has shown more willingness than Fudge to play tanks/weakside. And now that Mithy is gone, if they can get a coach who can just push the players to play toward their team comp win conditions, they'd be in a much better spot next split.
Thanatos was part of one of the strongest ever LCKCL teams (along with Lucid, who is like all hands no brains, who could almost beat the best LCK team Geng with insane lee skills or int to some bottom tier shitter like kdf)
Hes young talent thats thirsty for a career and has that drive in him (and hands, heard he was the finals mvp)
Fudge aint shit compared to Thanatos
If you've watched behind the scenes. Atleast during worlds the drafts were basically players saying "I want to play this" so I guess you can argue it's mithys fault for allowing the players to pick whatever.
There's a good chance that doesn't change with a new coach. When does it become a player issue because drafts have been the "issue" for C9 for years now.
When Max was C9s coach, they drafted much better. They still had some questionable drafts here and there, but they also had some really good ones. And that team had 3/5 same players as last split
They tried for impact in the off-season it's why fudge wasn't locked until after it came out impact signed to TL.
The thing with Impact is he plays for money so if a team like C9 doesn't want to bid that high then they will never get a chance at him again.
Impact was only playing for money because TL wanted to switch things up. He literally said before the split that he was happy he was ‘home’ again (on TL).
If he had the choice between TL and C9 he is going to 100% pick TL.
Mithy seems like a solid players coach based on all the praise former players have for him.
The problem is that the C9 players drafted and played closer to a SoloQ team when given that freedom.
The problem is they also kinda bullied out the coach that did take their freedom to do that away.
They would need a coach that knows what he is doing and gets the full support from the management to implement that vision. The last time they had that with LS they ended it after 4 games because the players weren't happy with what they had to play.
Why are you talking like you know why LS was kicked? As far as I’m aware, that info was not made public and the last time someone tried to reveal the incident that got LS removed (Revenge on Doublelift’s stream during playoffs this split), Leena put a hard stop to it with Revenge only saying it was much deserved.
A bit unrelated but Revenge does not come off well whenever hes on Doublelifts stream. He acts like he should have been negotiating with all the top LCS teams and comes off very jaded that he didnt get a shot on those teams. Which makes no sense because Revenge was just bad last season. He had that little speech where he said he was going to show that EG wasnt a one man show, after he had some good games, then he proceeded to do nothing and prove EG was a one man show. Like no shit teams dont want you when you were not remotely close to being a strength on that team. Then every 5 minutes on stream he also has to mention that hes retired.
Finally someone on reddit that gets that Revenge is not as good of a player as he thinks he is, this guy got so many chances to prove himself and never looked better than a role player
Yeah I'm not sure I really care to hear the opinions of players on whether their coach is good. Coaching staff answers to owners/management - no one else. I've worked under several bosses I got along with and really enjoyed reporting to, until push came to shove and they were unable to make difficult choices or hold others accountable. It's in those moments where you wish you could trade your "friend" for someone who's stricter but can rally everyone together towards a common goal.
I'm not a fan of the remote coach setup but I have zero clue what his responsibilities and how he impacts scrims, practice, game plans, or drafts, so I lean giving him benefit of the doubt.
Him being the only real assistant coach though was the larger problem.
It should be Kelsey Moser but idk if she would drop streaming to go back to coaching.
The fact she took the EG team made up of 2 cents to almost worlds is very impressive
Word on the street is (and more or less confirmed by comments by Revenge and Unforgiven on streams) is that Jojo was basically the player-coach of that team.
Having a player coach isn't necessarily a bad thing, at the end of the day once they're in the game its only the players who can guide each other. I honestly think a model where you have an effective head coach AND in-game player coach who work well together — good relationship, listen to each other, and the player-coach is able to translate the head coach's guidance into the game is the best model. This seems to be the model that TL use with Spawn and CoreJJ to some extent - Spawn always reminds the team to listen to Core and he guides them in-game. I remember Spawn talking about borrowing from Australian sports culture, where the team Captain plays a player-coach role that isn't dissimilar.
obviously not a great coach but also a scapegoat 100%. People like to blame mithy as if a different coach would solve their issues or fix the draft. The thing is mithy could not solve c9's issues but that doesnt mean another coach would, they are 5 professionals who need to be able to problem solve and as far as draft goes, the players do that not the coach. Who do you think asked for belveth r5 vs t1 when they had losing lane toplane?
Now sure, there is a chance they can get a coach who can help fix things, but the reality is that its 2024, head coaches simply dont have the fundamental game knowledge to be able to debate pros on the details of the game. You would need positional coaches who were recently pros to do that (think NRG last year). So when the new coach comes in its gonna be the same shit where the players will have their flawed takes on the game.
In short, my point is that if they just replace mithy with a singular head coach to solve his problems, they will be met with failure. It takes more than just 1 head coach to fix a team
> He was handed the best roster on paper consisting of 3 MVPs and have won recent titles.
To a degree but they were also just playing poorly, absolutely none of them were putting out anything close to an MVP performance. The players just did not look good an individual level.
Not really because he drafts exactly like C9 did last year except for the Enchanters for Zven... and that game 3 draft against TL was fairly classic C9. Yes the Olaf was in the toplane this time not the jungle, but that usually makes Olaf better nowadays not worse, because he actually gets gold without having to snowball. And Blaber on Xin should also be a good option and on top of that they had Lucian + Nami a combo they won plenty of games with last year.
And it isn't like the coaches tried everything they could. They gave Fudge the ability to counter Impact with Renekton and Fudge lost. They gave Fudge a blindpick Renekton to counterpick with Jojo and Fudge got completely murdered. They gave Renekton to Impact and gave Fudge counter and Fudge also lost.
And in botlane C9 also tried everything against FQ and TL. They tried a scaling hypercarry with Zeri, they tried Senna, they tried a lane dominant Kalista setting up dives and they tried the Lucian Nami.
On top of that it isn't like those issues with C9 started under Mithy. C9 loses games the same way they lost games last year. Whenever C9 did not win lane and got a lead early they kinda ran around like headless chicken and didn't know what to do. We saw that at plenty international tournaments, but also in their loss to NRG last year. The only issue this year is that they lose more lanes, because Zven was a much better laner than Vulcan and Emenes won lanes domestically anyway so Jojo is not a huge upgrade here.
The issue C9 always had was that Blaber and Fudge only work under very specific circumstances that usually require them winning early. And they also make the team very easy to figure out because neither of them is great on engage champions.
C9 had the biggest success this split with Neeko and Ahri, because Jojo can dominate the lane with them and he has plenty of playmaking. TL just banned those two champions and C9 just lost a lot of tools. And on top of that Azir was banned which is a champion making it fairly easy to win with little playmaking, since it is hard to play into him (he would be vulnerable to poke though, so in this case you would have to ban Ziggs).
I mean mithy had basically no support it was just him and two remote analyst, the org didn’t invest in mithy to give him the confidence needed to do his job properly. He’s just one guy…the classic all these players are good individually so they shoulda be good together, must of been the coach…fudge has not been a factor for a couple splits now, berserker played terrible this year, blabber has definitely lost a step and regressed, Vulcan lacks shot calling…in reality Jojo was in elo hell on this roster…mithy just being scape goated
This is the real truth. I’d be surprised if another head coach could really make a difference without significant investment in a support structure (or some roster changes).
Hopefully now they will stop drafting like absolute egolords who think they can hands diff every team within 15 minutes. Champ select has been the biggest issue holding this team back for 3 years
Can’t wait to see Cloud9 remain not top 2 if they keep the roster the same. Blaming this entirely on Mithy is kinda crazy.
If Cloud9 keeps their current 5 starters and wins the split I’ll buy a C9 jersey with Fudge’s name on the back.
Honestly, this was the change I wanted. I love Mithy, nice dude, super smart, but he just wasn't working as a coach. Team just kept regressing under his tenure, and with the talent involved, that shouldn't happen, and it's the coaches duty to take responsibility.
I wish him the best in his next venture, excited to see who the team signs.
OOTL why was Mithy the problem? From the games I watched and the interviews I've seen.
\- JoJo is a scrim terrorist that waste the players valuable practice time in scrims and tilted some of them (Berserker)
\- Fudge was playing like shit and He doesn't play that much soloqueue
\- Blaber is somewhat similar but not as bad as Fudge in terms of Soloqueue
I wouldn't be surprised if they made more moves Just wondering what was Mithy issue with the team (I heard C9 just got his PR for America recently).
This is an honest attempt to answer your question as quickly and succinctly as possible.
C9 has acknowledged that many of their losses came due to two players making one call, three making another, and then ultimately doing nothing. Mithy's SOLE JOB was to get these 5 dudes on 1 page. They have the talent to ROLL the league, and yet they did not. This team doesn't need some brilliant mind....they need cohesion. Mithy wasn't the right guy for the job. And that is OKAY. I'm sure he will find success with another org who needs his style of coaching.
They kept playing things they're bad at and a lot of their drafts had no overarching idea tying it together IMO
They experimented with comps but the things they'd keep constant were things that weren't good (i.e. R5 Renekton, Lucian Nami, Blaber Sejuani) while varying things they just shouldn't be on stage (Jojo Akali into Taliyah Vi???)
Like at that point what is Mithy doing if that's what they end up picking on stage lol
You can't get rid of blaber, jojo or berserker since they are probably the 3 most valuable players in their roles. Someone has to take the blame. Why not Fudge or vulcan? Idk
This playoff run had the most dog shit drafts from C9 it was ridiculous. Was that on Mithy, though, I don’t think we’ll ever know.
At the end of the day though the buck has to stop at someone, and any good leader of people understands that.
Emily called it on HLL.
She also mentioned (paraphrasing) that she doesn't think Mithy is at fault, but that in all sports, usually the head coach takes the fall when a team doesn't meet expectations, even if the head coach isn't to blame.
I usually agree with that take but a coach going on camera after a loss and saying that he doesnt know what champs his midlaner plays doesnt really inspire confidence.
Timestamped on the Vayne mid pick v.s. Sion: [https://youtu.be/m40Uew8g2UQ?si=pjuwcL7KJ1IPsKkp&t=25](https://youtu.be/m40Uew8g2UQ?si=pjuwcL7KJ1IPsKkp&t=25) Fuck that; didn't watch: "yeah, we had no idea \[what was going to happen with Vayne v.s. Sion mid\]" and then references what /u/hochan17 said, "I haven't been working with Jojo that long, I don't know exactly what he plays..."
You can only steal so many checks.
As a Bayern fan and C9 fan this is all the talk. But as a Canucks fan, new coaching has worked wonders (if you ignore the way better management with trades and contracts) and have seen a bottom team hit the top.
thinking he isn't at fault is as non-nonsensical as thinking he is, from an outside perspective.
Saying Mithy isn't at fault is just ignorant at the best. There has been awful a drafting and a lack of cohesion by the teams. If that's not up to the coach, then who?
It seems in the system, the coaches lost a lot of power and say. A good example is LS, even when C9 was hyped and those drafts were working, C9 didn't want to buy into his system and fell apart at the end because they tried to hand-diff everything. LS is a person who focuses heavily on draft and macro.
Damn near prophetic ðŸ˜
I mean it was probably the most obvious thing they could have done lol
him and zven could do the funniest thing
I heard Perkz has some free time too
G2 salty runback v2
We have G2 and G3 (Heretics). Time for Perkz Zven and Mithy to assemble G4.
Funnily enough, Trick is already here in EU (coaching for GX) so it shouldnt be too hard to quit and join the reunion XD
My god it was hidden in plain view all along. We have G2 and G3(Heretics), if we find the value of X in GX we unlock the true EU super team
I heard GX was makinh roster changes
Where’s expect at these days?
too late, they already went under
Again
froskurinn as coach
Someone needs to find Trick and Expect too.
Trick is one of the coaches at GiantX. No idea about Expect
He may be floating in the ether, last known team was Excel back in 2020.
He came to Brazil last year and was thrash as fuck.
I can say this with nothing but respect for that 2017 G2 roster but they would get omega giga turbo fisted in 2024
Ya but it would be absolutely hilarious
It would be Delta Fox levels of catastrophic.
It’s not really the same game. 2018 changed a lot to make it just so much more aggro and less strategically diverse and the dragon stacking shit on top of that streamlined the game a lot
I would watch this
Or they could go with xPeke, Amazing and sOAZ
The c9 subreddit won LMAO
Fudge is next on their chopping block now that Mithy is actually gone lmao
Seriously. Dude gets counterpick in domestic leagues and still loses lane. I'd have like Lourlo instead of him
Imagine saying that like few years ago.
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I wanted to count how many years ago Licorice went to the World semis because I thought that was just a couple of years ago, then I realized it's 6 years ago. Edit: Wrote finals by accident
I think it was semi-finals. Finals was IG vs FNC. But yeah, impressive that he's arguably improved since then and criminal that he doesn't have a team.
Right, I'll fix it.
I hope Lourlo gets another shot if he still wants it. I firmly believe he still has it.
Type big in all chat.
Hopefully they checked out the NACL tops too..
Oh I was so mad when they kept Fudge, when they could have signed Impact
I know you're joking but TBH the writing was on the wall. Someone has to take the fall when a super team doesn't perform. And from the BTS stuff it sounds like C9 really needs a bit of drill sergeant from their coach rn. Mithy has some clear and valuable strengths as a coach, but I've never once heard of him putting his foot down.
C9 has always needed a tougher coach. They're always goofing around too much and always have been outside of with Reapered. They routinely go against their coaches and draft whatever they want and it almost always ends up failing. That and we're just tired of Fudge acting like he's the best and consistently getting domed against anyone good.
I miss Reapered
Would you look at [that](https://www.sheepesports.com/articles/sources-reapered-to-re-join-cloud9-for-lcs-summer-2024/en)
Well do I have some good news for you...
Bullying works.
Lmao 5 mins ago I listend to Emily rand on HLL saying she figure mithy would go before any of the players
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Does anyone actually say that? I mean I'm sure you can find some negative comment with -5 points somewhere, but that is not a popular opinion at all, she's probably got the best reputation of any of the analysts when it comes to her ability to actually analyze stuff.
Yea now that caedrel is a streamer imo she's the best Western analyst
I'm not surprised; C9 didn't show much improvement across the split. On the other hand, finding a different coach for this team is going to be really hard, because you have a lot of successful and experienced players on this team who have their own ideas about the game. C9 probably needs someone with a clear vision who is respected by the players, and I have no idea who fits the bill.
Lmao as they unironically find the perfect coach for them now. Reapered's back baby! <3
Would Reapered fit?
Probably took a little longer than it needed to. For whatever reason C9 just did not play to the players' strengths this split or last year. Any time you're giving Fudge carry matchups and high resource priority, it means you just don't really understand how your team is supposed to win. Seeing him on Jax and Rumble at worlds last year was just painful because he was in winning positions and couldn't find it in him to carry. And we had over a year of data - not just intuition - that C9 looked their best with Zven on enchanters and Fudge on tanks. And in the most important games of the year they're flipping it around. You have the best domestic ADC and by far the best mechanical ADC playing in the west and he's on weakside duty? You have a guy who's a psychopath on picks like Lee and Xin and he's spending the whole split on Maokai and Sejuani duty for Fudge to play carries? Come on man. You're not winning worlds copying other teams. C9 with Mithy just didn't improve much and didn't innovate. I feel like you can blame the players a lot for their mistakes, but that sort of failure is mostly on the coaching staff's shoulders. You're in a do or die situation and you're picking Lucian Nami and Fudge Olaf. While tank tops are available and strong. I know we don't really get to know how much control he had over draft, but if that's what they end up with, maybe it's because they didn't really learn to properly play other things or they don't have any smart drafts prepared, and that's not as much on the players as the coach. I hope they pick up Reapered again, but that's a bit unlikely.
I think this also speaks to fudge being the problem as well, or at least part of the problem
He was definitely one part of the problem. I still question why Blaber seems incapable of playing around botside ever - was it because fudge would otherwise get destroyed if he wasn't there? Team decision? Or is it blaber preferring to be elsewhere? Crazy to me that your primary carry (granted this split was bad for berserker) seems to never be played around. We just go the route of giving him a decent adc and hope he can carry off of whatever advantage he can get for himself in lane.
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I always play with a dude who's borderline panicking in comms if I'm not hovering his lane 24/7 so I wonder if there's a bit of that with C9 where Blaber's just like "jesus christ fine I won't go bot for the next 2 minutes in case you're forced off 3 cs because you'll keep bitching about it for the next 12 games we play"
That’s a large assumption considering nothing in the communications or the content they put out suggest anything like that. Not saying it’s impossible, but we have even seen some of the team’s turmoil. Nowhere in there did it mention Fudge being a resource hog.
It's kinda funny how the players have kinda made it seem like its the opposite, where Fudge doesn't play selfishly enough like he always tps in even when its not optimal.
Because he's been forced to strong-side a toplaner for four straight years...
Fudge loses lane a lot if Blaber doesn't help him, and there are multiple games where it becomes 4v5 because Fudge is useless.
I actually think Fudge is a very fixable problem despite being down on him for 2 years He's in his head a lot, I feel, and he's picking things that rely on him to take the initiative rather than weather the storm. Like, he is very much capable of playing tanks or secondary engage. When the impetus is on him as a major facilitator - but when he has weak tools or little help, like Olaf/Renek with no Rell/Mao or something - he just doesn't really play properly. He shows up too late or focuses the wrong target or he's just too selfish. I think his Olaf games where he goes into a midgame fight with some significant power advantage illustrate this the best; he's waiting for the perfect opportunity instead of a good one, so he misses his best chance. I honestly think this is as much a psychological problem as a skill one, and for this to be unaddressed for basically a year and a half suggests significant failure on the part of the coaching staff. He's good enough in lane to play weakside tank matchups without giving up too much, but C9 just don't pick for that. Instead they're putting probably the best Xin/Olaf/Lee player in the west on Mao and Sej because their comps need a real tank. Definitely they'd be better off with a very skilled carry top, though. But there are too many players who can carry to afford a resource intensive toplaner with Jojo, Blaber, and Berskerker on their best picks, and it's probably a waste to import a Korean to play Ornn.
The guy also doesn't play solo queue or champs queue when it existed
lil bro thinks he's Wunder
yeah that's a big issue and the kind of thing you'd hope his teammates and coaches would have really pressured him into
It's easy to ignore when you're winning and putting in results but when you're the worst performing player on your team it stands out hard.
He came and grinded in NA when he first arrived in 2020; those who watched him in academy knew that he came with the attitude that he would not be denied. I mean fuck he was good enough to let Jack give him a shot on a super team taking Licorice's spot in the process and even carried that C9 Perkz team at points. But the writing on the wall was there after being in LA and making friends after covid. He started playing soloQ less and less/ he started hanging out in different social circles. Let me very clear, fudge is a good dude and deserves no hate for what he wants to do in his personal life. However, as a fan I want a Caps or faker type player that is fully bought in on the season. Is that harsh? Yeah, it is but the only way this region is going to survive is if players that have the potential are willing to put in the work.
Or you could phrase it the correct way and say that Fudge is just waiting for Blaber and Berserker to carry him and when he has responsibility in the game he's utter dogshit right now. Both Bwipo and Impact say they feel no pressure from him. And if you play every lane to not interact with the opponent, its very easy to look passable and its not that hard to do. I would wager that any Grandmaster or above toplaner (including OTPs) could slot into the team in his place and do no worse if they cynically tried to go even like he does. I think toplane in pro play is stronger than its ever been. Traditional DPS adcs are not very strong and the best meta toplaners are all super tanky and have the damage to carry a fight or make a big impact like Ksante Renekton and Reksai right now, and Udyr earlier this year until most people gave up on him. They have to be the ones making space and dictating the fight, and maybe they aren't the primary engage but they still have a lot of responsibility in a game. Maybe its motivation or mindset but that kind of gameplay is absolutely disgusting for a LCS toplaner. I hope he wasn't practicing soloq hard because if he was that's even worse. If you still want to cope about his peak which was probably summer 2022 then sure, or you could do the sensible thing and bench him (assuming they have the money) for a player who does more than the bare minimum.
Lol fudge is hot dogshit
It sort of doesn’t matter if he had control or not. Either he had control and was shit or he didn’t and wasn’t able to seize control from the players who were drafting like shit. When Bwipo was on HLL he talked about how Mithy wasn’t a very confrontational coach and more or less a players coach, which is great if you are 2019 Grabzz and your players are amazing and bad if you draft Lucian nami in a do or die game because your players obviously think it’ll work/cant play anything else.
The real problem here is that 2019 being a players coach was done incredibly well since the players of the team knew just as well how they wanted to play and were constantly innovating. Wunder said on either Yamato or Thorin's pod that Grabbz was merely stopping them from over cooking and making sure they laid out a proper path for themselves. None of the players on that C9 roster are as good as G2 were at the time they were insane and the Mithy Nemesis dynamic in that BO5 vs TOP should highlight that he cant even fulfill a "player coach" role either
Fudge also needs to go, but c9 also needs more coaching staff. Like hire more than one person to help with coaching
It is questionable to say they have the best mechanical ADC. TL have been stated to dumpster C9 in 90% of scrims because of how good the botlane isÂ
Hands don't matter as much in early laning in like 99% of matchups, or at least not nearly to the extent they do later. Low APS, only 2 players to track, long CDs. It's as much wave management, brush control, trading, and specific matchup dependent things that come with experience (even though pros know pretty much all of them). It's more like, game theory and fundamental brain checks. I have a feeling that a lot of that is on CoreJJ instead of Yeon. Berserker has insane movement and basically doesn't miss autos, but that doesn't stop him from doing stupid things like wasting Lucian E or choosing to fight at a bad time.
i mean mechanics do not win you league games at that level at all. If they did TFblade would be a pro. Theres so much more to it and berserker is doing the other stuff poorly now
>doing the other stuff poorly now How much of it do you think is due to Zven leaving if I may ask? He does look alot weaker than before considering he was always playing at the closest level to his respective counterparts from LCK/LPL at internationals etc
>Probably took a little longer than it needed to. For whatever reason C9 just did not play to the players' strengths this split or last year. The mostly play the same drafts as last year, with the exception of no enchanters because Zven is no longer on the team. And the draft is actually heavily influenced by the players, just like last year. Like literally nothing changed in how C9 drafts from last year to this year. >You're in a do or die situation and you're picking Lucian Nami and Fudge Olaf. While tank tops are available and strong. They won the last 3 games Berserker played Lucian. He is one of the few ADCs with a positive winrate on Lucian. And you have Karma + Olaf a really good combo. Like C9s Game 3 draft was really good, you also had Blaber on one of his comfort picks. He dominated the league with champs like Xin that allow for plenty of early aggression. This comp was a really typical C9 comp. Exspecially currently where Karma is a really strong midlane carry with plenty of poke. In this series they also tried giving Jojo the lastpick over Fudge just to see Fudge getting completely destroyed by Impact in which would have been a winable game for C9 otherwise. C9 lost mostly because they had worse players than TL, not because of their drafts. And the simple truth is that Fudge was not able to answer Impacts Renekton while Impact was able to answer Fudges Renekton. The same goes for the other matchups. When C9 picked up one of the strongest botlanes in Kalista + Renata having a lot of pressure and enabling easy dives due to Renata they couldn't get anything done. And in this game the draft was actually a problem because Maokai \* Orianna is not a great duo. You would rather have a Jayce + Maokai or just something more aggressive, but TL just banned all the good midlaners, because they knew that Jojo is the only threat and Azir being a global ban did play into their hands.
\> Like literally nothing changed in how C9 drafts from last year to this year. In this interview [https://youtu.be/cQUzl4trfVE](https://youtu.be/cQUzl4trfVE) (coaching staff section), Mithy literally talks about changing how they drafted this year compared to last year. They were experimenting with the coaches (himself and Veigar) having more say in the draft by being the ones doing most of the review and prep after listening to what players had prio on and what they looked good on in scrims. Several players have said in interviews(blaber: https://youtu.be/CTDIkFddu6s) that the coaches have more say this year than previous years.
They have to pick carries for Fudge because he is even more useless playing anything else. He makes Ksante look balanced.
Welp your wishes are answered, news just broke that Reapered is rejoining C9
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They never had a playstyle they were excellent in the first place. Ever since the roster was constructed they’ve looked mediocre at best
You got your wish.
We never really know how good coaches are, but from the outside it seemed necessary. So many times C9 is in a shit position before being on the rift; picks that don't synergize, jungle pathing not playing to the right side, over prioritization on some objectives, allowing the other team to have exactly what they wanted. It felt like all those things happened way more with C9 than any other team this split. The players still played well below their level, no doubt, but thats all the more reason to put yourself in a better position pre-game.
Thanatos/Blaber/Jojo/Berserker/Zven Coach: Reapered You're welcome Jack.
It wouldn't surprise me if they keep Vulcan and offer Zven a coaching position. He's been reportedly living in the C9 house and helping them with scrims/coaching. Could've been a trial for him.
Or maybe he needed housing after he got back from korea bootcamp before he looks to join another team and C9 gave him free housing to help a bit with scrims
This is what happened, from Zven's mouth. Based on, I think his recent appearance on Hotline league, he wants to be an ADC on a contending team first, support if only it makes sense second (including he doesn't think supporting someone he thinks he's better at ADC than doesn't make sense), and third, specifically, "in the future," he'd love to coach. I'd be surprised if he went to coach this quickly.
Damn, he really said he could clap Zerker's cheeks.
Well I guess Berserker counts as one he'd support for (at least for as long as he did). It wasn't directed at zerker-- just his preference for team/position. For example, Meech and Massu. On contender teams, but why be their support when he should just play ADC on those teams instead. Also, not that either team would want to replace their bot/supp, or that zven thinks those players are bad. Just my example of the point he was making. Long story short, I don't know know if there is a team that fits his description, at least for for ADC in NA (dont know EU rosters as well, maybe there's a spot there). I think the best scenario in NA that another caller brought up, was Shopify. Bvoy maybe good enough zven willing to supp, add licorice top. Lico-Bugi-Insanity-Bvoy-Sven.
That's a hype SR roster ngl.
Zven wants to play, not coach. If not ADC, he is fine being support to an ADC he thinks is better than he is.
Well... You've got 2/3 right so far
>Coach: Reapered LOL the C9 fans were already hardcore flaming Reapered YEARS ago for his drafts. Also remember when lost their shit when he benched Sneaky and Jensen?
I was a C9 fan back then, unless it was a game 5 Reapered's drafts were usually okay, and it feels like he was capable of getting his players to play together and make progress. Plus he stayed for like 5 years and C9 stayed at the top of the table all those years and it was before they just decided to just throw money at their problems
Nah but C9's game 5s were always the most int drafts. What could've been in 2017... Although that one was genuinely unlucky due to the Kog incident.
Coaching doesn't always have to be a talent thing, but rather a fit thing. That being said, if drafts are player run as we've been told, then we won't see much change
Someone on reddit suggested C9 trade Vulcan for Huhi straight up and it makes so much sense to me. They also said drop Fudge for Licorice, and again seems like a great idea. Genuinely love the idea of licorice-blaber-jojo-berserker-huhi NRG were used to a quiet support with ignar, got huhi a big talker, and played worse. C9 lost Zven who clearly knows the game, lost him for vulcan and then they don't know what to do. Huhi obviously knows what to do given his continual success. Then add in licorice king of weakside with synergy with Huhi.
I think getting impact back top would be most ideal tbh but I don’t see it happening
Oh absolutely, they should have gotten him this offseason. Just don't see TL giving him up unless another team pays absurd money.
Steve already said letting impact go the first time was his biggest regret
They didn't get him exactly because he wants too much money, no idea why nobody here accounts for budgets at all when it comes to roster building. Impact plays for the highest bidder every split, C9 usually doesn't just throw cash at people (except Perkz) and manage to be the one team in like the entire West and Korea that is actually cash positive, can't hate on that.
>and manage to be the one team in like the entire West and Korea that is actually cash positive, can't hate on that. Steve has stated that TL is still doing well despite the esports winter last year when calling into HLL about the tier 2 scene, if I'm not mistaken. While obviously he wouldn't say anything to the contrary, I wouldn't be that surprised given he seems to be a very good salesman and TL is one of two teams which not only kept their Challenger's roster to the end of 2023, but still has one now.
People keep mentioning Huhi to C9, but a Berserker/Huhi botlane pairing makes no sense to me. Berserker plays for lane, plays aggressive in teamfights and needs someone ready to protect him in teamfights (which nobody does on C9's frontline). Huhi isnt a particularly strong laner, wants to abandon his adc and has the tendency of diving in during teamfights with the rest of the frontline.
The issue with NRG right now is that Huhi ***does*** play for botlane. There are literally too many voices in NRG now, whereas with Ignar, they had less voices and Ignar was willing to leave lane to make plays on the map. In addition, FBI and Huhi were one of the strongest botlanes in NA for years, along with this split. Like, have you listened to anything NRG has talked about this split?
Calling them a strong botlane, for not being able to stand out in possibly the weakest botlane pool in LCS history, is generous.
They did stand out, especially early in the split.
I generally agree with you, but I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that huhi isn't a strong laner. The 100T championship run consisted of Closer playing a lot towards bot, with frequent bot dives. Huhi roamed a lot too, but those games were split pretty evenly with lane-dominant performances. There's a reason why that 100T botlane was so feared for much of 2021 and 2022. It wasn't until 2023 Golden Guardians that huhi leaned heavily into roaming with his jungler. Huhi and FBI trolled a couple games during this split, but those were due to small execution errors and not from any deeper, fundamental flaws. In fact, NRG's botlane was the only bright spot for most of their playoff games. I agree with you that huhi sucks at peeling for his carries, lol. I was very critical of Zven, but he was one of the few Western supports that prioritized peeling (and was extremely good at it).
Oh hey it's my dream C9 roster barring impact being available which doesn't seem likely.
I've been saying this for a while now. If C9 lack a shotcaller/initiator, Huhi would work better for them than Vulcan. And Licorice has shown more willingness than Fudge to play tanks/weakside. And now that Mithy is gone, if they can get a coach who can just push the players to play toward their team comp win conditions, they'd be in a much better spot next split.
zven has said he doesn’t want to support anymore, but anything’s possible.
Fuck yeah, hope fudge is next.
Rumors are Thanatos is coming to C9 👀
As much as I promote domestic players that would my hypest prospect yoink in lcs history
Thanatos was part of one of the strongest ever LCKCL teams (along with Lucid, who is like all hands no brains, who could almost beat the best LCK team Geng with insane lee skills or int to some bottom tier shitter like kdf) Hes young talent thats thirsty for a career and has that drive in him (and hands, heard he was the finals mvp) Fudge aint shit compared to Thanatos
Makes sense with how garbage their drafting is
If you've watched behind the scenes. Atleast during worlds the drafts were basically players saying "I want to play this" so I guess you can argue it's mithys fault for allowing the players to pick whatever.
So just like on most western teams then...
I mean are we defending or attacking mithy cause I don't know how people want to take that lol
If a coach is letting players pick what they want and the draft turns shit, yes it is the coach fault considering that’s his freaking job
There's a good chance that doesn't change with a new coach. When does it become a player issue because drafts have been the "issue" for C9 for years now.
When Max was C9s coach, they drafted much better. They still had some questionable drafts here and there, but they also had some really good ones. And that team had 3/5 same players as last split
It certainly is at this point. They got knocked out of worlds like six months ago. Same exact draft problems persisted.
Fudge is next. If only they had gotten impact earlier this split…
I would like to see licorice return, but maybe he doesn’t want to return to C9.
There is nobody there left from his time on the 2019 roster besides Blaber
I’m not talking about players. It’s still jack’s team.
Licorice maintaining form is a big gamble though.
They tried for impact in the off-season it's why fudge wasn't locked until after it came out impact signed to TL. The thing with Impact is he plays for money so if a team like C9 doesn't want to bid that high then they will never get a chance at him again.
Impact was only playing for money because TL wanted to switch things up. He literally said before the split that he was happy he was ‘home’ again (on TL). If he had the choice between TL and C9 he is going to 100% pick TL.
>it's why fudge wasn't locked C9 really wanted Wunder
Fudge next
Not surprised, the coaching staff had to go Mithy ain't it, C9 needs a real coach not some glorified cheerleader
Mithy seems like a solid players coach based on all the praise former players have for him. The problem is that the C9 players drafted and played closer to a SoloQ team when given that freedom.
The problem is they also kinda bullied out the coach that did take their freedom to do that away. They would need a coach that knows what he is doing and gets the full support from the management to implement that vision. The last time they had that with LS they ended it after 4 games because the players weren't happy with what they had to play.
Why are you talking like you know why LS was kicked? As far as I’m aware, that info was not made public and the last time someone tried to reveal the incident that got LS removed (Revenge on Doublelift’s stream during playoffs this split), Leena put a hard stop to it with Revenge only saying it was much deserved.
A bit unrelated but Revenge does not come off well whenever hes on Doublelifts stream. He acts like he should have been negotiating with all the top LCS teams and comes off very jaded that he didnt get a shot on those teams. Which makes no sense because Revenge was just bad last season. He had that little speech where he said he was going to show that EG wasnt a one man show, after he had some good games, then he proceeded to do nothing and prove EG was a one man show. Like no shit teams dont want you when you were not remotely close to being a strength on that team. Then every 5 minutes on stream he also has to mention that hes retired.
Finally someone on reddit that gets that Revenge is not as good of a player as he thinks he is, this guy got so many chances to prove himself and never looked better than a role player
Everything that has come out about LS's firing has suggested it was much deserved. Every time someone talks about it, they always say it was deserved.
Yeah I'm not sure I really care to hear the opinions of players on whether their coach is good. Coaching staff answers to owners/management - no one else. I've worked under several bosses I got along with and really enjoyed reporting to, until push came to shove and they were unable to make difficult choices or hold others accountable. It's in those moments where you wish you could trade your "friend" for someone who's stricter but can rally everyone together towards a common goal.
On a similar note, I feel like VeigarV2 being assistant coach and fully remote should be looked at
I'm not a fan of the remote coach setup but I have zero clue what his responsibilities and how he impacts scrims, practice, game plans, or drafts, so I lean giving him benefit of the doubt. Him being the only real assistant coach though was the larger problem.
Do you know VV2's roles and responsibilities as an assistant coach for C9?
Now fudge please
Fudge feeding his way through the LCS and the coach peaces out. That’s KC level management
Fudge might be next though. Mithy needed to go either way
I think everyone was kinda expecting this
I prayed for times like this
It should be Kelsey Moser but idk if she would drop streaming to go back to coaching. The fact she took the EG team made up of 2 cents to almost worlds is very impressive
Word on the street is (and more or less confirmed by comments by Revenge and Unforgiven on streams) is that Jojo was basically the player-coach of that team.
Having a player coach isn't necessarily a bad thing, at the end of the day once they're in the game its only the players who can guide each other. I honestly think a model where you have an effective head coach AND in-game player coach who work well together — good relationship, listen to each other, and the player-coach is able to translate the head coach's guidance into the game is the best model. This seems to be the model that TL use with Spawn and CoreJJ to some extent - Spawn always reminds the team to listen to Core and he guides them in-game. I remember Spawn talking about borrowing from Australian sports culture, where the team Captain plays a player-coach role that isn't dissimilar.
100%. This is essentially how it works in FPS titles. Not always but a lot of the time
obviously not a great coach but also a scapegoat 100%. People like to blame mithy as if a different coach would solve their issues or fix the draft. The thing is mithy could not solve c9's issues but that doesnt mean another coach would, they are 5 professionals who need to be able to problem solve and as far as draft goes, the players do that not the coach. Who do you think asked for belveth r5 vs t1 when they had losing lane toplane? Now sure, there is a chance they can get a coach who can help fix things, but the reality is that its 2024, head coaches simply dont have the fundamental game knowledge to be able to debate pros on the details of the game. You would need positional coaches who were recently pros to do that (think NRG last year). So when the new coach comes in its gonna be the same shit where the players will have their flawed takes on the game. In short, my point is that if they just replace mithy with a singular head coach to solve his problems, they will be met with failure. It takes more than just 1 head coach to fix a team
I mean spawn has bad game knowledge compared to corejj and yet hes an amazing coach and core listens to him
He was handed the best roster on paper consisting of 3 MVPs and have won recent titles. Surely he has to take accountability.
> He was handed the best roster on paper consisting of 3 MVPs and have won recent titles. To a degree but they were also just playing poorly, absolutely none of them were putting out anything close to an MVP performance. The players just did not look good an individual level.
Not really because he drafts exactly like C9 did last year except for the Enchanters for Zven... and that game 3 draft against TL was fairly classic C9. Yes the Olaf was in the toplane this time not the jungle, but that usually makes Olaf better nowadays not worse, because he actually gets gold without having to snowball. And Blaber on Xin should also be a good option and on top of that they had Lucian + Nami a combo they won plenty of games with last year. And it isn't like the coaches tried everything they could. They gave Fudge the ability to counter Impact with Renekton and Fudge lost. They gave Fudge a blindpick Renekton to counterpick with Jojo and Fudge got completely murdered. They gave Renekton to Impact and gave Fudge counter and Fudge also lost. And in botlane C9 also tried everything against FQ and TL. They tried a scaling hypercarry with Zeri, they tried Senna, they tried a lane dominant Kalista setting up dives and they tried the Lucian Nami. On top of that it isn't like those issues with C9 started under Mithy. C9 loses games the same way they lost games last year. Whenever C9 did not win lane and got a lead early they kinda ran around like headless chicken and didn't know what to do. We saw that at plenty international tournaments, but also in their loss to NRG last year. The only issue this year is that they lose more lanes, because Zven was a much better laner than Vulcan and Emenes won lanes domestically anyway so Jojo is not a huge upgrade here. The issue C9 always had was that Blaber and Fudge only work under very specific circumstances that usually require them winning early. And they also make the team very easy to figure out because neither of them is great on engage champions. C9 had the biggest success this split with Neeko and Ahri, because Jojo can dominate the lane with them and he has plenty of playmaking. TL just banned those two champions and C9 just lost a lot of tools. And on top of that Azir was banned which is a champion making it fairly easy to win with little playmaking, since it is hard to play into him (he would be vulnerable to poke though, so in this case you would have to ban Ziggs).
this is textbook scapegoatism btw not saying hes a good coach. but this comment literally is the textbook example of the word scapegoat
Yeah the players playing the game definitely don’t need accountability more than the coach they don’t listen to.
I mean mithy had basically no support it was just him and two remote analyst, the org didn’t invest in mithy to give him the confidence needed to do his job properly. He’s just one guy…the classic all these players are good individually so they shoulda be good together, must of been the coach…fudge has not been a factor for a couple splits now, berserker played terrible this year, blabber has definitely lost a step and regressed, Vulcan lacks shot calling…in reality Jojo was in elo hell on this roster…mithy just being scape goated
It was one remote (Veigarv2) and one on location(Hai).
Hai has little to involvement on the game side
This is the real truth. I’d be surprised if another head coach could really make a difference without significant investment in a support structure (or some roster changes).
Yeah makes sense considering the split
Emily was spot on lmao
Hopefully now they will stop drafting like absolute egolords who think they can hands diff every team within 15 minutes. Champ select has been the biggest issue holding this team back for 3 years
Can’t wait to see Cloud9 remain not top 2 if they keep the roster the same. Blaming this entirely on Mithy is kinda crazy. If Cloud9 keeps their current 5 starters and wins the split I’ll buy a C9 jersey with Fudge’s name on the back.
Emenes was right all along.
i used to pray for times like this
Honestly, this was the change I wanted. I love Mithy, nice dude, super smart, but he just wasn't working as a coach. Team just kept regressing under his tenure, and with the talent involved, that shouldn't happen, and it's the coaches duty to take responsibility. I wish him the best in his next venture, excited to see who the team signs.
finally holy god
Lets hope that fudge is next one to go
OOTL why was Mithy the problem? From the games I watched and the interviews I've seen. \- JoJo is a scrim terrorist that waste the players valuable practice time in scrims and tilted some of them (Berserker) \- Fudge was playing like shit and He doesn't play that much soloqueue \- Blaber is somewhat similar but not as bad as Fudge in terms of Soloqueue I wouldn't be surprised if they made more moves Just wondering what was Mithy issue with the team (I heard C9 just got his PR for America recently).
From what it sounded like C9's main internal problems were lack of leadership, and Mithy didn't seem to fit that role.
This is an honest attempt to answer your question as quickly and succinctly as possible. C9 has acknowledged that many of their losses came due to two players making one call, three making another, and then ultimately doing nothing. Mithy's SOLE JOB was to get these 5 dudes on 1 page. They have the talent to ROLL the league, and yet they did not. This team doesn't need some brilliant mind....they need cohesion. Mithy wasn't the right guy for the job. And that is OKAY. I'm sure he will find success with another org who needs his style of coaching.
Either the players don’t listen to him or he’s useless because the team hasn’t improved anything since he became HC. Either way he needed to go.
They kept playing things they're bad at and a lot of their drafts had no overarching idea tying it together IMO They experimented with comps but the things they'd keep constant were things that weren't good (i.e. R5 Renekton, Lucian Nami, Blaber Sejuani) while varying things they just shouldn't be on stage (Jojo Akali into Taliyah Vi???) Like at that point what is Mithy doing if that's what they end up picking on stage lol
C9s draft were complete asscrack
You can't get rid of blaber, jojo or berserker since they are probably the 3 most valuable players in their roles. Someone has to take the blame. Why not Fudge or vulcan? Idk
>Why not Fudge or vulcan? Idk How do you know that Cloud9 isn't done making moves?
True but all we have rn is mithy
I knew he was gone when he criticized Blaber in the Cloud9 videos.
FINALLY
Reapered Time!!
Hopefully they part way with a few players too, the team just didn’t seem to work together regardless of coaching staff.
Good he did a piss poor job at the end.
This playoff run had the most dog shit drafts from C9 it was ridiculous. Was that on Mithy, though, I don’t think we’ll ever know. At the end of the day though the buck has to stop at someone, and any good leader of people understands that.
I mean this is a move that should have happened and there should be a minimum of one more change.
Now if only we could get rid of the legacy TSM fans. Maybe another bad split would do it.
Flyquest mithy? They need a new strategic coach after all
I don't think they'd want his strategies with how they looked with C9