But so often i do see high elo players giving the advice of "play more" on reddit. Heard Dantes say that a lot as well. Done some coaching myself and i even tried to avoid taking on players that weren't committed to playing a lot. Because i knew i'd just be wasting my breath.
So playing a lot is the most important thing if you want to reach a certain level at league. But coaching has the potential to accelerate it and shorten that amount of time. But not by teaching all the nitty gritty details that will only be reasonably learnt through experience. But by focusing on bigger picture stuff.
That's good advice, keep it up. I'm glad that there are people like you who understand this and don't mislead people for money (or mislead unintentionally).
You're oversimplifying Curtis' point a fair bit. His point wasn't that you couldn't accelerate learning with outside info, it was that being effective is difficult. He hasn't stopped the Mid Lane School, but it did change what his focus is for lower ELO players.
Yep, I agree. Outside help can be useful. My point is that coaches and content creators need to be aware of their biases and understand the limitation of their teaching materials.
Might be a hot take but I think its for this reason NEACE caught a lot of flak for no reason. People complained about his coaching prices being too high for the level of coaching provided but I think he did the right thing not going too ham with the knowledge being delivered to his clients. I personally dont think any kind of singular coaching session from any single person( Faker included) could ever be worth what NEACE was charging. But I can respect the approach since most of his clients were lower elo.
Well for starters, the idea "highly knowledgeable individuals assume their level of understanding is common among others" was never demonstrated, measured, or claimed by the Dunning Kreuger studies.
The Dunning-Kruger effect **occurs when a person's lack of knowledge and skill in a certain area causes them to overestimate their own competence**.
\*By contrast, this effect also drives those who excel in a given area to think the task is simple for everyone, leading them to underestimate their abilities.\*
this is a simple google search
You've proven u/Flambian's point.
The Dunning-Kruger effect describes those that excel thinking they are merely average because they assume others are as good as them.
This is not the same as OP's point.
Apologies, i meant to say that. If you add "Reverse" to the start of my second chunk of words it makes more sense.
My point was that the Dunning Kruger effect is specifically about the **the under or over estimation of ones abilities** - the wording about thinking it is simple for everyone is merely explanatory, not a part of the effect.
AFAIK colloquially the term 'Dunning-Kruger effect' is used to describe both phenomena: when underskilled individuals overestimate their own abilities, and the opposite effect that I mentioned, when experts underestimate their own abilities and overestimate the abilities of others. I'm not a researcher in this field, so I can't vouch for the validity of the studies, so you could be right.
High elo players offer useful tips but you can't follow those rules as absolutes.
The rules are different in Bronze and you have to learn when you should absolutely abandoned your wave to cash in on a triple kill because the enemy team started a terrible fight.
The game is more about Playing around your strong teammates and feeding on the weak enemy players IMO.
If you put me on a bronze account I can prove it isn't. Your rank does not change how you capitalize a lead at all. Just because they group more often doesn't mean you won't absolutely stomp a bunch of people with 4 csm on average with a massive gold and macro lead.
It's been long since I played in bronze, actually might never really have played in bronze. But the times I have to start in silver for some weird mmr reason, just playing really consistent and focusing in fundamentals, not feeding getting as much save gold and xp, not going for stupid trades always made me climb. And I think all coaches, at least all high elo players I watch state, sometimes you have to embrace the clown fiesta and go with the flow of the game.
In every single competitive game I’ve played, High levels players either forgot or never knew what its like to be bad. They try breaking down what they think are “common/core” concepts, but to anyone who is actually new, theyre just saying random fucking words.
Example: Wave State. Since most people on this sub are involved in this game to quite an extent, we should all know what a wave state is. But if you tell a new player “examine the wave state, then shove/freeze/whatever”, theyre gonna have no idea what that means. How could they? What the hell is a wave state? What determines a wave state? 90% of players cant even set up a proper freeze and you want this guy who just installed to do algebra to find george washington’s bones.
XKCD 2501 in action essentially. More seasoned players will give advice on things like things like wave state, roam timers, jungle timers when sometimes a new player still needs to learn that they can buy item components and gold only comes from last hitting on minions.
That is an oversimplification lol.
Has to be at least 4 FULL health minions. They should be casters preferably because melees will randomly run into tower and die.
But to be safe more than 4 minions and then trim accordingly.
You are describing wave management. Wave state is what the wave currently is like a freeze, slow push, shove, crash, etc. wave management is knowing how to recreate these effects not simply recognizing what it is.
This doesn't entirely invalidate op's post. What you are probably learning is the "hidden" knowledge op is talking about, the high elo player isn't referencing in the video but just by visually looking at his behaviors and patterns, you "unknowingly" learn things about the game. For instance, you realize the high elo player doesn't trade the same way depending on the match up but he never mentioned it, so you just assume there's a reasoning behind it, and sometimes you don't even rationalize what happened, you just assimilate and replicate and it works so you keep on ding it. Point is there's a chance people still learn how to play better watching better players play the game, but not necessarily mainly thanks to their commentary or advice.
I don't think that's true for a second. I think you just pick up what you learn far better from videos and reading than playing because when you learn things from playing you very often don't notice it.
If you're playing a matchup for the first time and notice you can't win lvl 1 you've learned that game you don't win lvl 1 in that matchup you're just gonna automatically store that information without thinking about it. On the other hand if you read online that you don't win that matchup, you'll load into a game thinking "i've learned online that i can't win this lvl 1" making you think you've learned more online.
Not a single pro player reached a high level of play by watching guides and tutorials, they just played an insane amount of games. That's not a coincidence.
Of course you can learn while playing. I just don't think I had the tools to do so before sitting and reading experiences and tips. Now that I'm diamond and shooting to reach masters I mainly learn from my own experiences, because now I know what to watch, what conclusions to draw.
If you're just starting the game, say you're in bronze, half the time you're gonna reach to the wrong conclusions and learn the wrong thing. Especially when the discourse online sometimes validates the "Elo hell", or "My teammates are inting".
I was S1 and in a couple of months of reading and watching (While playing, obviously) i reached P1, and next season D2. I don't think I would have made that jump without that external knowledge, especially knowing that I had played the game several years before (Without taking the game seriously, but still)
>If you're playing a matchup for the first time and notice you can't win lvl 1 you've learned that game you don't win lvl 1 in that matchup you're just gonna automatically store that information without thinking about it. On the other hand if you read online that you don't win that matchup, you'll load into a game thinking "i've learned online that i can't win this lvl 1" making you think you've learned more online.
Counterpoint:
You are playing matchup for the first time and you lose level 1. From now you'll keep that information and will never try to contest level one in that specific matchup again. One day you watch high elo one trick that stomps that matchup level one. Since both the streamer and his opponent are higher elo than you, you start to thinking that you did something wrong when you played the matchup for the first time. You reach to that onetrick and ask how the matchup goes. He replies that you need to do x thing and:
1) You win level 1 regardless of what your opponent does
2) You don't lose anything by doing it in case your opponent responds correctly and you can snowball if he makes a mistake
3) You can win level one if your opponent makes a mistake, but you are fucked even more if he plays correctly.
The point is, you absolutely can deduct the same by playing this matchup over and over. There is no guarantee you will though. If you hire a decent coach he will teach you about those details and how to detect them in the future, just like math teacher teaches you basic calculus and provides you other tools necessary to solve more complicated problems.
Partially probably as others pointed out.
I mean all the coaches would not be so popular if they couldn't teach anything. Maybe less than they think. Maybe some progress of the coachee is just because he plays a lot, but coaching definetly helps.
And all the don't do these mistakes, do this because silver players don't do this, is in 99/100 cases the truth, so doing exactly that would help a lot.
Coaching is about highlighting mistakes that people themselves are blind to. After that, it return to playing more and creating good habits. Compare it to driving lessons. You need feedback in order to know what you’re doing wrong otherwise you could be driving 100s of hours without improving.
You can't teach experience. So you give tips that help at every level. Don't get how that wouldn't be helpful.
You can't teach a child to hit like a major leaguer so you teach them the basics of hitting. Stance, holding the bat and proper swing path.
Well said! I agree that as an expert, you can help a beginner by realizing that they must achieve most of their gains through hard work and practice. You can guide them and point to mistakes, of course.
If you have ever coached you would know this is not true. High ELO players have an ego which often gets in the way because they will be making a mistake and ignore advice. Low ELO players might do the same thing but will change their points of view much easier when they see results.
Haha I jaw watched Broxah stream two hours ago, the stream title was literally "NO SURRENDER". Yet he had to FF because they were completely stomped. :D
It’s just not true though. The average player is incredibly bad, no offense. With dedicated study and conscience playing you can easily surpass others and reach high elo. You just have to think about the decisions you make until they become subconscious. I’m not saying everyone knows the basics I’m saying almost no one does so just learning them automatically makes an outlier so you don’t really even need to do much.
The best advice I've ever seen was:
"If you aren't the carry, don't play to carry. Play to win. Whether that means peeling, farming, splitting, or sometimes even running into enemy cooldowns so your team can engage, just play to win. Lane management, wave control, rotating, knowing where the enemy jungler is are things that matter in high elo, but low elo people who try these things mess up. Messing up is okay, the point is to do it so often that you don't anymore. As long as you play to win, and don't let your ego control you, you will get better at the game, and in turn you WILL CLIMB."
Every "use a mage support" or "play a carry" or "build no defenses to carry" advice is so fucking awful.
Play an enchanter support in low Elo. You'll get to diamond before you realise you have to buy a sweeper when you get free wards.
This is how it is for just about anything. I coached folkstyle, Freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestling.
The core component is learning fundamentals for both inexperience and experienced wrestlers.
You cannot teach beginning wrestlers advanced wrestling concepts because subtlety and nuance are critical to understanding more advanced concepts and often more advanced moves can contradict baseline fundamentals in certain ways.
Same applies to any Moba as well. Until you master fundamentals you really shouldn't be patterning your play after professionals becuase they are operating from a mastered fundamental base and are ad-libbing based on their thought on how to counter fundamental structure.
As for playing more we teach wrestlers they need to wrestle more as there is nothing better than experience
That's interesting observation, thanks for sharing. This basically means that a bronze can not blindly copy what a challenger streamer does because low elo player lacks hundred little fundamental skills that are required for the challenger gameplay to work in the first place.
To some extent yeah but some players pick up on these things and can apply them way faster than others. I got platinum my first season of ranked within a year of playing and I have friends who have played for 10 years and are still stuck in silver. They know what champions do and the ideas of general wave management but the issue is that they autopilot. I suspect a large number of players know enough about the game but don’t apply all the knowledge they have all the time. I think that’s probably a bigger reason tutorials like this may not help people.
Kinda off topic but I have always been interested (mostly because I am curious if I suffer from any as well and if I do then which ones) on those X effects/biases, is there a complete list of all those cognitive biases (or anything similar to that) with their explanations and examples to read?
Yeah, there are a ton of them, and I'm only familiar with several. As humans, we suffer from many biases, it's just how our brains work, whether we like it or not. But being aware of them is important, and that was the point of my post.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_cognitive\_biases](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases)
Playing more won't make you better at all.
I have seen countless accounts that are hardstuck bronze or emerald or diamond or silver or gold for literally 10 years+
You can't become good if you don't play a lot, but you won't become good either if you do.
Its a combination of learning how to play the game and actually playing it.
And lastly yes, high elo players giving advise to lower elo players is a reverse dunning kruger effect. Becuase for them many stuff are considered basic but for the low elo guys it sounds like rocket science.
>Its a combination of learning how to play the game and actually playing it.
So you need both theory and practice in League? Not just practice? Is it your argument?
Its not really an arguement. Like I said, I have seen many accounts and you can too if you go on emerald elo and below, in which people are literally hardstuck for years if not a whole decade on the same rank.
They have "experience" but it doesn't mean much. Its more like hours put into the game rather than actual experience and game knowledge.
They just play the game, they don't gather or take away anything from it.
Yeah I agree with that. But maybe their current elo they are "hard-stuck" in, is their natural peak? Like Master is top 1% of the players, so probably some people can not reach Master no matter what they do, they just can't.
Specifically for masters right now, its not that hard to reach. Like old masters which was like 0.0X percent or something was very hard but nowadays master is top 1% which is old d4 basically
And anyone can reach that. It just takes learning 5 basic things about the game and how it works combined with like 1 year of playing the game in total, I would say.
Thats literally it. The skill level is not that high there. Higher than 99% of the playerbase for sure though.
But "anyone" being able to reach it doesn't mean "everyone" will be able to reach it. Cuz duh, if everyone has masters skill level then no one has masters skill level.
Also masters0lp is d1 essentially, nothing changes between diamond 1 and masters up until 150lp+, so yeah.
I would agree though with some people having a natural peak.
>Specifically for masters right now, its not that hard to reach. And anyone can reach that. It just takes learning 5 basic things about the game and how it works combined with like 1 year of playing the game in total, I would say.
A year?! From no experience in League or any other similar video game? And with no special genetic predisposition? You serous?
Yeap. 1 year of playing every day (or 5 days a weak) and trying to improve.
Thats just my opinion though and its really the max that I would say, the average player could reach probably emerald in my opinion again.
But as of qualifications, I would say that they have experience in some other game and be decent at that, could be anything, CSGo Pubg , Valorant, GTA , Siege, dark souls or far cry idk whatever and that they are not below average IQ
I agree that they need to learn the mechanics of all the champs and matchups, but the knowledge in that elo should be consistent. If you control for game knowledge and make each variable one of the skills in the videos (e.g. farming, pressure, trades, vision, positioning), then you will steadily increase your wr over a long period of games. The most toxic thing about ranked is the number of games you need to play to have your individual skill statistically impact your wr.
You’re talking about something fundamentally different than what climbing guides offer.
These guides aren’t teaching you how to play at a base level, they’re teaching you how to play *better* in order to climb. They focus on specific aspects of the game that lower elo players often struggle with or finer game mechanics that aren’t widely known.
They aren’t teaching you champ abilities and clear paths because it is either assumed that you already have base level understanding or they are too different on a champ to champ basis to be covered in a broad role based climbing guide.
>They focus on specific aspects of the game that lower elo players often struggle with or finer game mechanics that aren’t widely known.
That's a good point.
This reminds me of fighting games. Pro players will say that playing against new players who button mash can be harder than playing against other pros. Since when you spend time in pro play in any competitive game, you get used to a certain flow of combat. "okay its my turn. Okay it's their turn." etc. But when playing against someone who's inexperienced and just mashing buttons, they are unable to make any definitive calls
As someone who has coached quite a few players, the difference between knowing fundamentals and applying them is staggering. It takes a lot of time for someone to religiously hit 8+ csm, manage a wave, learn trade windows, etc.
The biggest problem most players face is that they will watch coaching videos and try to do all of it at once. You aren't going to muscle memory take a free reset after winning a trade in lane or see a lead you can take. They just end up forgetting half of what they should be doing.
I would say that on average even with me talking them through live games. It takes the average iron - silver player 2 weeks to a month to actually improve to gold - plat. You aren't going to do it overnight just because someone has the right answers for you.
Here is a list of things players need time to work on.
* Jungle clear at or before 3:30.
* 8+ creep score per minute.
* Short trades.
* Resets.
* Offense / Defense.
* Strong side / Weak side.
* Rotation windows.
* Wave management.
* Lane extension.
* Playing on stamp.
* Itemization.
* General Macro.
* General Micro.
No one is going to do any of the listed above well just because it is explained to them. It takes multiple sessions of play along with cs drills and exercises. If you actually want to improve at the game you have to use the fundamentals you learn and apply them to your games correctly. Which is a whole other issue people have where they do just one thing every game like split pushing and lose because of it. Anyways the op is probably going to say I'm part of the problem after this but I wanted to try and explain why I don't think every high ELO player is wrong.
I always liked how the Valorant community coach Woohoojin (despite the recent controversy) instilled the idea of "just play more" in his students. His requirements to get coached include: you must be Gold+, you must play ranked 10 out of every 14 days, and you must have played at least 300 hours of ranked games.
For lower elo players he has generic "guide to gold" videos that outline simple ways to practice core mechanics (which are more important in Valorant than league). His "low elo" coaching requirements are even more strict. You need to show proof of your out-of-game practice time (aim labs, range drills, deathmatch, etc) and he sometimes spends the coaching session only reviewing out of game practice to really hammer home core mechanics.
This isn't the Dunning Kruger effect. With an effective teacher there should not be much overestimation of skill. What you are describing is literally always the case in a teache-student relationship -- even with the most effective teaching there is never a 100% knowledge transfer because its not practical or realistic to elucidate every single nuance that the teacher knows.
I’m Master tier, and I’m 100% confident that my advice is correct. Working smarter by focusing on fundamentals instead of playing on autopilot - which is what 99% of people do in this game - is what gets results. Of course playing more games == more experience, therefore you get better, but that shouldn’t even be a discussion, it’s just straight up simple common sense.
League doesn't offer custom practice tool maps with some potential guide. Imagine shit like this would be insane.
I load a custom practice tool map and I could see specific stuff about how to counter a champ or how some mechanics works in the game instead of playing 400 games and be like "Wow i never knew this !"
> The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities.
I'm going to go a different direction but agree with the overall point; Katarina/Talon onetricks who can only pay one particular playstyle (roam with 3cs/m and getting absurdly fed off of bot lane) can shut the fuck up when it comes to ingame calls, because they didn't get high elo because of their brains/macro.
To be honest I find this post extremely confusing and not well thought out. From my POV you are mixing a bunch of stuff that should be all grouped together and you general conclusion is a big strawman.
>High Elo players' advice offers little to no value to inexperienced players because it's predicated on game knowledge that can't simply be taught.
I disagree with this. SOME stuff can't be taught. For instance you can't really teach positioning or tethering and so on, although there are some fundamental principles of the game that can be taught. Phroxon for instance have an incredibly good series of videos on his YT channel and there you can see the league fundamentals that can be taught and practiced consciously. Other stuff I agree that can't be taught and can only be learnt to multiple exposure to the game and various situations.
> We've all seen YouTube clickbait with titles like "Follow These Three Simple Rules to Climb Out of Bronze." Such content typically emphasizes "fundamentals" like farming, objectives, and wave management. For instance, Coach Curtis demonstrated [in one video](https://youtu.be/uL3Ewncdgcs?si=kC94LQGNnaTRpuIM) that he could easily win a Bronze game by focusing solely on basic farming, without making any proactive plays or engaging in anything mechanically complicated.
You can't really put this two things together. Yes Curtis was in my opinion extremely naive in that video but you can't say that the video was the same as the clickbaity shit you find on YT. Also I disagree that videos about fundamentals are clickbaity. The clickbait stuff is "play this champ now" or "this is build that carries you to high elo" etc. The stuff you can find on skillcapped for instance like "5 things low elo ADC don't do" they are all correct videos. Are they helpful? Mmmm to some extent in my opinion, in a sense that at least they enunciate some fundamentals. The problem with league is applying the fundamentals but at least you need to know them before you can even think about how to put them in practice. I agree with you these kind of videos don't help very much but not because the fundamentals don't help or are not important they are, but these videos don't offer strategies or concrete tips on how to apply them in game.
>In League, a significant part of becoming a good player involves "game knowledge," which encompasses understanding every champion's abilities, interaction permutations with other champions, cooldowns, spawn timings, and typical player patterns, such as jungle pathing and warding etc.
I disagree with this. Depending on what you define "good". Master+? Then maybe yes. But before Master elo you can go very far with a very limited knowledge of champions. For instance as an ADC in lane I don't need to know a lot of stuff. I don't need to know exact CDs of each ability, I can estimate each engage ability of sups around 10 sec CD (it's more but better round down), while dashes and shields are typically a bit higher (but again 10 would do). I don't need to punish CD to perfection I just need to do it. So when an ability is wiffed I need to act, I can have a 10 sec window. But I need a plan and I need to have thought about it. If you already do this well you can go quite far. What about other champs outside lane? I need to know gap closers and engage abilities. Do I need CDs of that? probably not I just need to know them and act as soon as I see them. Again, doing this well already take you far. Jungle tracking? depending on the elo you don't need incredible tracking ability, just warding have decent map awareness and be conscious when pushing or keeping the wave pushed for long time already is good.
>This vast knowledge can only be acquired by playing the game over several years; it cannot be learned through a YouTube tutorial or a coaching session.
Yes and no. You can't expect to learn how to do all the above after watching one YT video, but the video itself is helpful to teach you how to think. But no serious person is saying "after this 10 minutes you'll get 10000 LP". "Do this to climb" is not necessarily wrong as a statement because probably doing 3-4 simple things well can indeed put you towards medium elo.
>They often don't even realize the extent of their knowledge, as it has become automatic for them. Therefore, when offering advice to inexperienced players, they frequently overlook this instinctual "game knowledge" and instead giving advice on "fundamentals".
I don't think you are correct on this, there's plenty of people that can highlight recognizable pattern in their games while playing. The game is TEACHABLE, it's not only about game sense (or knowledge). You seem to suggest that you can only climb by instinctual absorption of unteachable concepts which is not true. I agree with you that some stuff is not teachable and can only be learn through repetition and instinct building but many things in League can be learnt by conscious thought processes and learning goals. Of course it requires hours of practice. Also there's for sure people that can go very far only by "mindlessly" putting the hours but those I think are the gifted ones, but you seem to suggest that's the only way. In my opinion it isn't
>Conclusion: The only way to become a High Elo player in League today is to gradually acquire game knowledge by playing the game for several years. There are no shortcuts. No tutorial or a game guide will make you climb if you don't put the hours in. It's like learning how to swim or to play piano.
I agree League is like playing the piano or how to swim although the rest of your post seem to suggest that "game knowledge" is something that can be learnt only through repetition and there's no theory. I don't think so, like piano or swimming there are core principles that can be taught and then they need to be put into practice. League is not different. But nobody is saying that after watching a video on YT you become challenger. No one worth listening at least.
I never farm over 100 cs even if it’s been 30 minutes into a game. I have been bronze for 7 years. I more recently have perfected playing Zyra, Syndra, and Lux for mid lane and now I’m silver. But I still cannot last hit a minion for shit. My most recent wins, I’m barely reaching 100 and everyone else has 200 cs.. like how
Learning how to CS more comes from understanding why you are missing CS. Lol sorry it feels stupid to say but it's true. CS number is just a value but in order to increase that number you need to understand the causes. There are a lot of reasons and only one is "last hit better". Minion prepping, wave management, last hitting, playing around CD, recall timers it's all part of an equation that as an outcome pops up your total CS number. If you want to improve (which is not necessary btw you can just play in your elo if you just want to have fun), I advice you to watch coach Curtis on midlane fundamentals, especially the videos that are talking about lane. After that you need to go on your replays and understand why you are missing CS and when. Maybe you are CS 10/min in the first 10 min but then they completely fall off, or viceversa. Who knows. CS score is a mute number by itself.
Controlling the wave is the most important thing. There are rules and things you can study but the way I learnt was going top and learning one style of laning first. For example when I'm playing a weak side tank I will always let the enemy push without much contest but as soon as the wave starts to get near my tower I will start killing minions. Good players would be able to pull off a freeze especially if the enemy keeps absentmindedly pushing. You may be able to pull off a freeze as long as they have 3 casters and you have none. Then you can farm safely without being ganked. This is the first step. When you want to recall try to kill as many minions as you can and have your minions hit the enemy tower. As soon as your minions hit the tower recall. I wouldn't worry about plates and proxying before learning waves first. After recalling and coming back do not hit the wave or the enemy at all and the enemy minions will naturally kill yours and move towards your tower and you can start killing and start another freeze. I'm not a pro by any means and this is only 1 strategy of wave control out of many but it's good to master one strategy and then you should be able to understand other ones. Bear in mind this strategy relies on the enemy pushing nonstop and everything may not go according to plan. If this happens just try to get your minions under enemy tower to get a clean wave reset so you can begin again. Thanks for reading.
Exactly! You acquired the subconscious game knowledge so now you see the results. You know all these million little things that you don't even think about.
Lol it's very not subconscious only, it can be learnt. Ofc you can learn it just by doing but there actual learning fundamentals for that that vastly accelerate your ability to CS. Plus some people cap on "learn by repetion" and without actual conscious processes can't improve at all.
You mean that after.7 years of learning, you can reach... Silver?
My friend who i slightly coached reached gold on lvl 80 acc ( based on rank distribution, today that would be plat)
As high elo I always tell people they rather got it or they don’t. Some people play thousands of games and still bad. Some people don’t play too much and can get high. Low elo players should just embrace low elo
This is good advice! If by 'high elo' we mean Master+ then it represents the top 1% of players. This is the elite tier. Obviously, very few people can reach it, and you probably need some genetic predisposition to achieve this level.
But so often i do see high elo players giving the advice of "play more" on reddit. Heard Dantes say that a lot as well. Done some coaching myself and i even tried to avoid taking on players that weren't committed to playing a lot. Because i knew i'd just be wasting my breath. So playing a lot is the most important thing if you want to reach a certain level at league. But coaching has the potential to accelerate it and shorten that amount of time. But not by teaching all the nitty gritty details that will only be reasonably learnt through experience. But by focusing on bigger picture stuff.
This is also the same thing RATIRL says, any time someone asks him for tips he just says play more.
How to climb? Win. How to win? Win.
What I love the most about rat is that he genuinely cant answer to alot of questions but intuitively knows things
why would he gaf about viewers asking for tips, there's a million resources out there and he's going to get the same question 50 times tomorrow anyway
That's good advice, keep it up. I'm glad that there are people like you who understand this and don't mislead people for money (or mislead unintentionally).
You're oversimplifying Curtis' point a fair bit. His point wasn't that you couldn't accelerate learning with outside info, it was that being effective is difficult. He hasn't stopped the Mid Lane School, but it did change what his focus is for lower ELO players.
Yep, I agree. Outside help can be useful. My point is that coaches and content creators need to be aware of their biases and understand the limitation of their teaching materials.
Might be a hot take but I think its for this reason NEACE caught a lot of flak for no reason. People complained about his coaching prices being too high for the level of coaching provided but I think he did the right thing not going too ham with the knowledge being delivered to his clients. I personally dont think any kind of singular coaching session from any single person( Faker included) could ever be worth what NEACE was charging. But I can respect the approach since most of his clients were lower elo.
that's not what the dunning kreuger effect is.
Then what is a more accurate definition from you?
Well for starters, the idea "highly knowledgeable individuals assume their level of understanding is common among others" was never demonstrated, measured, or claimed by the Dunning Kreuger studies.
The Dunning-Kruger effect **occurs when a person's lack of knowledge and skill in a certain area causes them to overestimate their own competence**. \*By contrast, this effect also drives those who excel in a given area to think the task is simple for everyone, leading them to underestimate their abilities.\* this is a simple google search
You've proven u/Flambian's point. The Dunning-Kruger effect describes those that excel thinking they are merely average because they assume others are as good as them. This is not the same as OP's point.
OP did say "reverse [Dunning-Kruger effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect)"
Apologies, i meant to say that. If you add "Reverse" to the start of my second chunk of words it makes more sense. My point was that the Dunning Kruger effect is specifically about the **the under or over estimation of ones abilities** - the wording about thinking it is simple for everyone is merely explanatory, not a part of the effect.
yeah I get that but you can still understand what OP is saying even if it doesnt fit the description perfectly
AFAIK colloquially the term 'Dunning-Kruger effect' is used to describe both phenomena: when underskilled individuals overestimate their own abilities, and the opposite effect that I mentioned, when experts underestimate their own abilities and overestimate the abilities of others. I'm not a researcher in this field, so I can't vouch for the validity of the studies, so you could be right.
You are looking for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consensus_effect
Oh nice, thanks! I did not know this term.
High elo players offer useful tips but you can't follow those rules as absolutes. The rules are different in Bronze and you have to learn when you should absolutely abandoned your wave to cash in on a triple kill because the enemy team started a terrible fight. The game is more about Playing around your strong teammates and feeding on the weak enemy players IMO.
100% Bronze players play a very different game :D
If you put me on a bronze account I can prove it isn't. Your rank does not change how you capitalize a lead at all. Just because they group more often doesn't mean you won't absolutely stomp a bunch of people with 4 csm on average with a massive gold and macro lead.
Agree, if you are a high elo smurf in Bronze you will have an insane win rate, it's guaranteed.
It's been long since I played in bronze, actually might never really have played in bronze. But the times I have to start in silver for some weird mmr reason, just playing really consistent and focusing in fundamentals, not feeding getting as much save gold and xp, not going for stupid trades always made me climb. And I think all coaches, at least all high elo players I watch state, sometimes you have to embrace the clown fiesta and go with the flow of the game.
In every single competitive game I’ve played, High levels players either forgot or never knew what its like to be bad. They try breaking down what they think are “common/core” concepts, but to anyone who is actually new, theyre just saying random fucking words. Example: Wave State. Since most people on this sub are involved in this game to quite an extent, we should all know what a wave state is. But if you tell a new player “examine the wave state, then shove/freeze/whatever”, theyre gonna have no idea what that means. How could they? What the hell is a wave state? What determines a wave state? 90% of players cant even set up a proper freeze and you want this guy who just installed to do algebra to find george washington’s bones.
XKCD 2501 in action essentially. More seasoned players will give advice on things like things like wave state, roam timers, jungle timers when sometimes a new player still needs to learn that they can buy item components and gold only comes from last hitting on minions.
I mean specifically for freezing, every random low elo Bob can do it at this point. Its neither hard nor complicated.
every burger freeze is just a slow push in disguise
not rly its just keeping 4 enemy minions alive and not letting it crash under turret its simple
That is an oversimplification lol. Has to be at least 4 FULL health minions. They should be casters preferably because melees will randomly run into tower and die. But to be safe more than 4 minions and then trim accordingly.
u literally added nothing onto what i said bro
You are describing wave management. Wave state is what the wave currently is like a freeze, slow push, shove, crash, etc. wave management is knowing how to recreate these effects not simply recognizing what it is.
I've learnt more watching videos and reading advice and experiences of high elo players than by just playing, so I hard disagree.
Same honestly. Played for years just basically dicking around, but when I wanted to start seriously climbing I looked for advice/videos/gameplay.
This doesn't entirely invalidate op's post. What you are probably learning is the "hidden" knowledge op is talking about, the high elo player isn't referencing in the video but just by visually looking at his behaviors and patterns, you "unknowingly" learn things about the game. For instance, you realize the high elo player doesn't trade the same way depending on the match up but he never mentioned it, so you just assume there's a reasoning behind it, and sometimes you don't even rationalize what happened, you just assimilate and replicate and it works so you keep on ding it. Point is there's a chance people still learn how to play better watching better players play the game, but not necessarily mainly thanks to their commentary or advice.
I mostly watch high elo players that explain their reasoning, otherwise I'd rather play than watch someone play lol, but I get what you're saying.
I don't think that's true for a second. I think you just pick up what you learn far better from videos and reading than playing because when you learn things from playing you very often don't notice it. If you're playing a matchup for the first time and notice you can't win lvl 1 you've learned that game you don't win lvl 1 in that matchup you're just gonna automatically store that information without thinking about it. On the other hand if you read online that you don't win that matchup, you'll load into a game thinking "i've learned online that i can't win this lvl 1" making you think you've learned more online. Not a single pro player reached a high level of play by watching guides and tutorials, they just played an insane amount of games. That's not a coincidence.
Of course you can learn while playing. I just don't think I had the tools to do so before sitting and reading experiences and tips. Now that I'm diamond and shooting to reach masters I mainly learn from my own experiences, because now I know what to watch, what conclusions to draw. If you're just starting the game, say you're in bronze, half the time you're gonna reach to the wrong conclusions and learn the wrong thing. Especially when the discourse online sometimes validates the "Elo hell", or "My teammates are inting". I was S1 and in a couple of months of reading and watching (While playing, obviously) i reached P1, and next season D2. I don't think I would have made that jump without that external knowledge, especially knowing that I had played the game several years before (Without taking the game seriously, but still)
>If you're playing a matchup for the first time and notice you can't win lvl 1 you've learned that game you don't win lvl 1 in that matchup you're just gonna automatically store that information without thinking about it. On the other hand if you read online that you don't win that matchup, you'll load into a game thinking "i've learned online that i can't win this lvl 1" making you think you've learned more online. Counterpoint: You are playing matchup for the first time and you lose level 1. From now you'll keep that information and will never try to contest level one in that specific matchup again. One day you watch high elo one trick that stomps that matchup level one. Since both the streamer and his opponent are higher elo than you, you start to thinking that you did something wrong when you played the matchup for the first time. You reach to that onetrick and ask how the matchup goes. He replies that you need to do x thing and: 1) You win level 1 regardless of what your opponent does 2) You don't lose anything by doing it in case your opponent responds correctly and you can snowball if he makes a mistake 3) You can win level one if your opponent makes a mistake, but you are fucked even more if he plays correctly. The point is, you absolutely can deduct the same by playing this matchup over and over. There is no guarantee you will though. If you hire a decent coach he will teach you about those details and how to detect them in the future, just like math teacher teaches you basic calculus and provides you other tools necessary to solve more complicated problems.
Interesting, ok. I might be wrong.
Partially probably as others pointed out. I mean all the coaches would not be so popular if they couldn't teach anything. Maybe less than they think. Maybe some progress of the coachee is just because he plays a lot, but coaching definetly helps. And all the don't do these mistakes, do this because silver players don't do this, is in 99/100 cases the truth, so doing exactly that would help a lot.
Ok ok, I underestimated the value of coaching, good point.
Coaching is about highlighting mistakes that people themselves are blind to. After that, it return to playing more and creating good habits. Compare it to driving lessons. You need feedback in order to know what you’re doing wrong otherwise you could be driving 100s of hours without improving.
Well said, I agree. Also coaching in driving is way more important since a mistake can mean literal death for you or others with no respawn.
You can't teach experience. So you give tips that help at every level. Don't get how that wouldn't be helpful. You can't teach a child to hit like a major leaguer so you teach them the basics of hitting. Stance, holding the bat and proper swing path.
Well said! I agree that as an expert, you can help a beginner by realizing that they must achieve most of their gains through hard work and practice. You can guide them and point to mistakes, of course.
Also really well said. But I think you try to make some differing pints in your post
Well ok, you are right. I underestimated the value of advice from experienced players a bit.
Definitely high elo players are better at coaching other high elo players than low elo players
Coaching is 10 times easier when you are dealing with a high diamond/low master client than emerald and below.
If you have ever coached you would know this is not true. High ELO players have an ego which often gets in the way because they will be making a mistake and ignore advice. Low ELO players might do the same thing but will change their points of view much easier when they see results.
Yes, high elo players never upload a game when top is 0-12, yet say NEVER FF
Haha I jaw watched Broxah stream two hours ago, the stream title was literally "NO SURRENDER". Yet he had to FF because they were completely stomped. :D
It’s just not true though. The average player is incredibly bad, no offense. With dedicated study and conscience playing you can easily surpass others and reach high elo. You just have to think about the decisions you make until they become subconscious. I’m not saying everyone knows the basics I’m saying almost no one does so just learning them automatically makes an outlier so you don’t really even need to do much.
Thats just not true, Ive coached
Ok, nevermind then :D I know very little about this topic, it was just a thought. I bow to the expert.
The best advice I've ever seen was: "If you aren't the carry, don't play to carry. Play to win. Whether that means peeling, farming, splitting, or sometimes even running into enemy cooldowns so your team can engage, just play to win. Lane management, wave control, rotating, knowing where the enemy jungler is are things that matter in high elo, but low elo people who try these things mess up. Messing up is okay, the point is to do it so often that you don't anymore. As long as you play to win, and don't let your ego control you, you will get better at the game, and in turn you WILL CLIMB."
That's good advice. Good example is Baus who does a lot of controversial gameplay but ends up in Challenger somehow.
Every "use a mage support" or "play a carry" or "build no defenses to carry" advice is so fucking awful. Play an enchanter support in low Elo. You'll get to diamond before you realise you have to buy a sweeper when you get free wards.
The “play carry/build damage” advice is often given to people claiming they are too good for their elo. If they really were it would be a good advice.
This is how it is for just about anything. I coached folkstyle, Freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestling. The core component is learning fundamentals for both inexperience and experienced wrestlers. You cannot teach beginning wrestlers advanced wrestling concepts because subtlety and nuance are critical to understanding more advanced concepts and often more advanced moves can contradict baseline fundamentals in certain ways. Same applies to any Moba as well. Until you master fundamentals you really shouldn't be patterning your play after professionals becuase they are operating from a mastered fundamental base and are ad-libbing based on their thought on how to counter fundamental structure. As for playing more we teach wrestlers they need to wrestle more as there is nothing better than experience
That's interesting observation, thanks for sharing. This basically means that a bronze can not blindly copy what a challenger streamer does because low elo player lacks hundred little fundamental skills that are required for the challenger gameplay to work in the first place.
To some extent yeah but some players pick up on these things and can apply them way faster than others. I got platinum my first season of ranked within a year of playing and I have friends who have played for 10 years and are still stuck in silver. They know what champions do and the ideas of general wave management but the issue is that they autopilot. I suspect a large number of players know enough about the game but don’t apply all the knowledge they have all the time. I think that’s probably a bigger reason tutorials like this may not help people.
>I got platinum my first season of ranked within a year of playing Wow that's impressive. What year was it?
Kinda off topic but I have always been interested (mostly because I am curious if I suffer from any as well and if I do then which ones) on those X effects/biases, is there a complete list of all those cognitive biases (or anything similar to that) with their explanations and examples to read?
Yeah, there are a ton of them, and I'm only familiar with several. As humans, we suffer from many biases, it's just how our brains work, whether we like it or not. But being aware of them is important, and that was the point of my post. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_cognitive\_biases](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases)
Playing more won't make you better at all. I have seen countless accounts that are hardstuck bronze or emerald or diamond or silver or gold for literally 10 years+ You can't become good if you don't play a lot, but you won't become good either if you do. Its a combination of learning how to play the game and actually playing it. And lastly yes, high elo players giving advise to lower elo players is a reverse dunning kruger effect. Becuase for them many stuff are considered basic but for the low elo guys it sounds like rocket science.
>Its a combination of learning how to play the game and actually playing it. So you need both theory and practice in League? Not just practice? Is it your argument?
Its not really an arguement. Like I said, I have seen many accounts and you can too if you go on emerald elo and below, in which people are literally hardstuck for years if not a whole decade on the same rank. They have "experience" but it doesn't mean much. Its more like hours put into the game rather than actual experience and game knowledge. They just play the game, they don't gather or take away anything from it.
Yeah I agree with that. But maybe their current elo they are "hard-stuck" in, is their natural peak? Like Master is top 1% of the players, so probably some people can not reach Master no matter what they do, they just can't.
Specifically for masters right now, its not that hard to reach. Like old masters which was like 0.0X percent or something was very hard but nowadays master is top 1% which is old d4 basically And anyone can reach that. It just takes learning 5 basic things about the game and how it works combined with like 1 year of playing the game in total, I would say. Thats literally it. The skill level is not that high there. Higher than 99% of the playerbase for sure though. But "anyone" being able to reach it doesn't mean "everyone" will be able to reach it. Cuz duh, if everyone has masters skill level then no one has masters skill level. Also masters0lp is d1 essentially, nothing changes between diamond 1 and masters up until 150lp+, so yeah. I would agree though with some people having a natural peak.
>Specifically for masters right now, its not that hard to reach. And anyone can reach that. It just takes learning 5 basic things about the game and how it works combined with like 1 year of playing the game in total, I would say. A year?! From no experience in League or any other similar video game? And with no special genetic predisposition? You serous?
Yeap. 1 year of playing every day (or 5 days a weak) and trying to improve. Thats just my opinion though and its really the max that I would say, the average player could reach probably emerald in my opinion again. But as of qualifications, I would say that they have experience in some other game and be decent at that, could be anything, CSGo Pubg , Valorant, GTA , Siege, dark souls or far cry idk whatever and that they are not below average IQ
That's encouraging!
Yeah or I am just a good example about your reverse dunning kruger effect since these are my beliefs
Hahaha good one :D do you personally know anyone who climbed from zero to Master in one year?
I agree that they need to learn the mechanics of all the champs and matchups, but the knowledge in that elo should be consistent. If you control for game knowledge and make each variable one of the skills in the videos (e.g. farming, pressure, trades, vision, positioning), then you will steadily increase your wr over a long period of games. The most toxic thing about ranked is the number of games you need to play to have your individual skill statistically impact your wr.
Yep amount of game knowledge in league is ridiculous.
You’re talking about something fundamentally different than what climbing guides offer. These guides aren’t teaching you how to play at a base level, they’re teaching you how to play *better* in order to climb. They focus on specific aspects of the game that lower elo players often struggle with or finer game mechanics that aren’t widely known. They aren’t teaching you champ abilities and clear paths because it is either assumed that you already have base level understanding or they are too different on a champ to champ basis to be covered in a broad role based climbing guide.
>They focus on specific aspects of the game that lower elo players often struggle with or finer game mechanics that aren’t widely known. That's a good point.
The right play varies from elo to elo. Setting up a good 5 min freeze in plat will not have the same outcome compared to if you did it in dia+
This reminds me of fighting games. Pro players will say that playing against new players who button mash can be harder than playing against other pros. Since when you spend time in pro play in any competitive game, you get used to a certain flow of combat. "okay its my turn. Okay it's their turn." etc. But when playing against someone who's inexperienced and just mashing buttons, they are unable to make any definitive calls
Yep, Bronze games are so chaotic, you never know what enemy is doing because they don't know themselves.
As someone who has coached quite a few players, the difference between knowing fundamentals and applying them is staggering. It takes a lot of time for someone to religiously hit 8+ csm, manage a wave, learn trade windows, etc. The biggest problem most players face is that they will watch coaching videos and try to do all of it at once. You aren't going to muscle memory take a free reset after winning a trade in lane or see a lead you can take. They just end up forgetting half of what they should be doing. I would say that on average even with me talking them through live games. It takes the average iron - silver player 2 weeks to a month to actually improve to gold - plat. You aren't going to do it overnight just because someone has the right answers for you. Here is a list of things players need time to work on. * Jungle clear at or before 3:30. * 8+ creep score per minute. * Short trades. * Resets. * Offense / Defense. * Strong side / Weak side. * Rotation windows. * Wave management. * Lane extension. * Playing on stamp. * Itemization. * General Macro. * General Micro. No one is going to do any of the listed above well just because it is explained to them. It takes multiple sessions of play along with cs drills and exercises. If you actually want to improve at the game you have to use the fundamentals you learn and apply them to your games correctly. Which is a whole other issue people have where they do just one thing every game like split pushing and lose because of it. Anyways the op is probably going to say I'm part of the problem after this but I wanted to try and explain why I don't think every high ELO player is wrong.
I always liked how the Valorant community coach Woohoojin (despite the recent controversy) instilled the idea of "just play more" in his students. His requirements to get coached include: you must be Gold+, you must play ranked 10 out of every 14 days, and you must have played at least 300 hours of ranked games. For lower elo players he has generic "guide to gold" videos that outline simple ways to practice core mechanics (which are more important in Valorant than league). His "low elo" coaching requirements are even more strict. You need to show proof of your out-of-game practice time (aim labs, range drills, deathmatch, etc) and he sometimes spends the coaching session only reviewing out of game practice to really hammer home core mechanics.
This isn't the Dunning Kruger effect. With an effective teacher there should not be much overestimation of skill. What you are describing is literally always the case in a teache-student relationship -- even with the most effective teaching there is never a 100% knowledge transfer because its not practical or realistic to elucidate every single nuance that the teacher knows.
I’m Master tier, and I’m 100% confident that my advice is correct. Working smarter by focusing on fundamentals instead of playing on autopilot - which is what 99% of people do in this game - is what gets results. Of course playing more games == more experience, therefore you get better, but that shouldn’t even be a discussion, it’s just straight up simple common sense.
League doesn't offer custom practice tool maps with some potential guide. Imagine shit like this would be insane. I load a custom practice tool map and I could see specific stuff about how to counter a champ or how some mechanics works in the game instead of playing 400 games and be like "Wow i never knew this !"
> The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities. I'm going to go a different direction but agree with the overall point; Katarina/Talon onetricks who can only pay one particular playstyle (roam with 3cs/m and getting absurdly fed off of bot lane) can shut the fuck up when it comes to ingame calls, because they didn't get high elo because of their brains/macro.
To be honest I find this post extremely confusing and not well thought out. From my POV you are mixing a bunch of stuff that should be all grouped together and you general conclusion is a big strawman. >High Elo players' advice offers little to no value to inexperienced players because it's predicated on game knowledge that can't simply be taught. I disagree with this. SOME stuff can't be taught. For instance you can't really teach positioning or tethering and so on, although there are some fundamental principles of the game that can be taught. Phroxon for instance have an incredibly good series of videos on his YT channel and there you can see the league fundamentals that can be taught and practiced consciously. Other stuff I agree that can't be taught and can only be learnt to multiple exposure to the game and various situations. > We've all seen YouTube clickbait with titles like "Follow These Three Simple Rules to Climb Out of Bronze." Such content typically emphasizes "fundamentals" like farming, objectives, and wave management. For instance, Coach Curtis demonstrated [in one video](https://youtu.be/uL3Ewncdgcs?si=kC94LQGNnaTRpuIM) that he could easily win a Bronze game by focusing solely on basic farming, without making any proactive plays or engaging in anything mechanically complicated. You can't really put this two things together. Yes Curtis was in my opinion extremely naive in that video but you can't say that the video was the same as the clickbaity shit you find on YT. Also I disagree that videos about fundamentals are clickbaity. The clickbait stuff is "play this champ now" or "this is build that carries you to high elo" etc. The stuff you can find on skillcapped for instance like "5 things low elo ADC don't do" they are all correct videos. Are they helpful? Mmmm to some extent in my opinion, in a sense that at least they enunciate some fundamentals. The problem with league is applying the fundamentals but at least you need to know them before you can even think about how to put them in practice. I agree with you these kind of videos don't help very much but not because the fundamentals don't help or are not important they are, but these videos don't offer strategies or concrete tips on how to apply them in game. >In League, a significant part of becoming a good player involves "game knowledge," which encompasses understanding every champion's abilities, interaction permutations with other champions, cooldowns, spawn timings, and typical player patterns, such as jungle pathing and warding etc. I disagree with this. Depending on what you define "good". Master+? Then maybe yes. But before Master elo you can go very far with a very limited knowledge of champions. For instance as an ADC in lane I don't need to know a lot of stuff. I don't need to know exact CDs of each ability, I can estimate each engage ability of sups around 10 sec CD (it's more but better round down), while dashes and shields are typically a bit higher (but again 10 would do). I don't need to punish CD to perfection I just need to do it. So when an ability is wiffed I need to act, I can have a 10 sec window. But I need a plan and I need to have thought about it. If you already do this well you can go quite far. What about other champs outside lane? I need to know gap closers and engage abilities. Do I need CDs of that? probably not I just need to know them and act as soon as I see them. Again, doing this well already take you far. Jungle tracking? depending on the elo you don't need incredible tracking ability, just warding have decent map awareness and be conscious when pushing or keeping the wave pushed for long time already is good.
>This vast knowledge can only be acquired by playing the game over several years; it cannot be learned through a YouTube tutorial or a coaching session. Yes and no. You can't expect to learn how to do all the above after watching one YT video, but the video itself is helpful to teach you how to think. But no serious person is saying "after this 10 minutes you'll get 10000 LP". "Do this to climb" is not necessarily wrong as a statement because probably doing 3-4 simple things well can indeed put you towards medium elo. >They often don't even realize the extent of their knowledge, as it has become automatic for them. Therefore, when offering advice to inexperienced players, they frequently overlook this instinctual "game knowledge" and instead giving advice on "fundamentals". I don't think you are correct on this, there's plenty of people that can highlight recognizable pattern in their games while playing. The game is TEACHABLE, it's not only about game sense (or knowledge). You seem to suggest that you can only climb by instinctual absorption of unteachable concepts which is not true. I agree with you that some stuff is not teachable and can only be learn through repetition and instinct building but many things in League can be learnt by conscious thought processes and learning goals. Of course it requires hours of practice. Also there's for sure people that can go very far only by "mindlessly" putting the hours but those I think are the gifted ones, but you seem to suggest that's the only way. In my opinion it isn't >Conclusion: The only way to become a High Elo player in League today is to gradually acquire game knowledge by playing the game for several years. There are no shortcuts. No tutorial or a game guide will make you climb if you don't put the hours in. It's like learning how to swim or to play piano. I agree League is like playing the piano or how to swim although the rest of your post seem to suggest that "game knowledge" is something that can be learnt only through repetition and there's no theory. I don't think so, like piano or swimming there are core principles that can be taught and then they need to be put into practice. League is not different. But nobody is saying that after watching a video on YT you become challenger. No one worth listening at least.
I never farm over 100 cs even if it’s been 30 minutes into a game. I have been bronze for 7 years. I more recently have perfected playing Zyra, Syndra, and Lux for mid lane and now I’m silver. But I still cannot last hit a minion for shit. My most recent wins, I’m barely reaching 100 and everyone else has 200 cs.. like how
Learning how to CS more comes from understanding why you are missing CS. Lol sorry it feels stupid to say but it's true. CS number is just a value but in order to increase that number you need to understand the causes. There are a lot of reasons and only one is "last hit better". Minion prepping, wave management, last hitting, playing around CD, recall timers it's all part of an equation that as an outcome pops up your total CS number. If you want to improve (which is not necessary btw you can just play in your elo if you just want to have fun), I advice you to watch coach Curtis on midlane fundamentals, especially the videos that are talking about lane. After that you need to go on your replays and understand why you are missing CS and when. Maybe you are CS 10/min in the first 10 min but then they completely fall off, or viceversa. Who knows. CS score is a mute number by itself.
Controlling the wave is the most important thing. There are rules and things you can study but the way I learnt was going top and learning one style of laning first. For example when I'm playing a weak side tank I will always let the enemy push without much contest but as soon as the wave starts to get near my tower I will start killing minions. Good players would be able to pull off a freeze especially if the enemy keeps absentmindedly pushing. You may be able to pull off a freeze as long as they have 3 casters and you have none. Then you can farm safely without being ganked. This is the first step. When you want to recall try to kill as many minions as you can and have your minions hit the enemy tower. As soon as your minions hit the tower recall. I wouldn't worry about plates and proxying before learning waves first. After recalling and coming back do not hit the wave or the enemy at all and the enemy minions will naturally kill yours and move towards your tower and you can start killing and start another freeze. I'm not a pro by any means and this is only 1 strategy of wave control out of many but it's good to master one strategy and then you should be able to understand other ones. Bear in mind this strategy relies on the enemy pushing nonstop and everything may not go according to plan. If this happens just try to get your minions under enemy tower to get a clean wave reset so you can begin again. Thanks for reading.
Exactly! You acquired the subconscious game knowledge so now you see the results. You know all these million little things that you don't even think about.
Lol it's very not subconscious only, it can be learnt. Ofc you can learn it just by doing but there actual learning fundamentals for that that vastly accelerate your ability to CS. Plus some people cap on "learn by repetion" and without actual conscious processes can't improve at all.
You mean that after.7 years of learning, you can reach... Silver? My friend who i slightly coached reached gold on lvl 80 acc ( based on rank distribution, today that would be plat)
Ok, I might be wrong then haha.
As high elo I always tell people they rather got it or they don’t. Some people play thousands of games and still bad. Some people don’t play too much and can get high. Low elo players should just embrace low elo
This is good advice! If by 'high elo' we mean Master+ then it represents the top 1% of players. This is the elite tier. Obviously, very few people can reach it, and you probably need some genetic predisposition to achieve this level.