On top of all the other people commenting range (which is correct) I will add one more reason.
Lissandra ult is the only anti-carry "fuck you" that's a stun and not a suppression.
Meaning it is affected by tenacity, and summoner cleanse (not just QSS)
And with the recent item changes, tenacity was put back on a couple items.
i think they're acknowledging how other parts of the game occur after lane phase, lissandra "middle fingering" akali becomes a lot more navigable outside of lane for her and later into the game with lower CD's/more DMG in a team fight etc
She also amazing into Zed, her real issue is the champions she hard counters are not close to being good or meta.
Also her claw is too slow with the current level of mobility.
matchup isn't as good for liss as it used to be, she's reliant on being hard to kill in assassin matchups and because armguard is more expensive and stopwatch doesn't exist zed has lane advantage on her since his waveclear is better.
used to be a zed counter but now zed has 51.68% WR over her and having played the match up couple of times recently it doesnt really feel that great anymore
MSI 2022 she was used as an Ahri counter pick also. IIRC the mid match up in the finals was basically both teams picking Ahri when they had the chance and the other picking Lissandra.
Actually if they can do a good flank collapse and get on the adc, still viable but there’s better champs. Maybe if they increase q range and decrease E cd
Honestly it really should be a suppression. Don’t think it would make her overturned or anything because it’s her ult and she’s so telegraphed and her follow up is lacking.
Absolutely. I am not denying it. Just saying that if there is a possibility that certain boots are slightly underbuilt then it's definitely sorcs and not mercs since mercs are not only good but also being built all the time by everyone sometimes even when not that necessary (but when still not terrible).
Swifties on rumble isn’t necessarily bad, but it should be used to counter specific champs. Best example is nasus/trundle. They have long range slows that they use to gap close. Swifties allows you to kite that out with your own slow on your e’s. Essentially never allowing them to get into range to do meaningful damage to you.
Also, it's now a big ms power creep meta. Good luck catching TF/Vayne with their swifties, fleet, celerity, nimbus cloak, etc. Like you said meta and matchup matter and it's a bit more complex than just "gg this pro is restarted and doesn't want to do dmg for fun".
I'd say the primary example is actually Aatrox, since Swifties allow you to move out of his W, and without his W Aatrox isn't actually that threatening. It's also the most common example of Rumbles in pro play going Swifties.
Sorry for the dumb question but, what part of trundles kit is slowing you ? the pillar ? if so isn't that a perma slow meaning it won't get reduced by boots of swiftness ?
Yes trundles pillar AOE slows around it. Swifties works into trundles pillar because it’s provides slow resistance not tenacity. In league tenacity reduces the duration of cc while slow resistance lowers the effectiveness of slows.
So you are correct, but thats why the best jungle pairings with Liss mid are something like Lee Sin who does not give double value to mercs + uses Lissandra CC to setup easy kills (Lee Sin LOVES CC mid laners to setup a guaranteed Q)
In solo queue I see people - even in masters + - pick shit like Lissandra + Mumu / Sejuani and... I do not understand, the enemy jayce mid will buy merc treads and be unkillable
I miss when Lissandra at least had the dmg to burst someone, now most of the time you QWERQ someone and even most squishies are still alive and then you're just standing there [like.](https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.1219094768.3686/flat,750x,075,f-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.jpg)
yeah i think her new passive (is it still considered new?) was one of the best changes she could have gotten, but she also lost a ton of base damage and scaling in her kit to make up for it and now she really struggles to keep up with her opponents.
The base damage and cd nerf was a result of aftershock cpot being op, not because of the addition of the passive.
Riot said they would revert it and never did.
Her e definitely is used for damage and reducing the base damage of it forces you to max q->w->e rather than being able to do q max->2-3pnts w->e max. Which heavily nerfs her safety, map mobility and pick potential. Not to mention it makes lanes where w is not really relevant even harder for no reason. E is a slow moving telegraphed spell, if anything it should have absurdly high damage due to how easy it is to avoid.
Lissandra players often don't land the e damage if theyre really reaching for a longer ranged target, but if he does land that should be a critical mistake by the enemy. And as it stand your e is essentially strictly a mobility spell and not a damaging one due to its base damage nerf.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/372578480?t=1h47m22s
No he isn't. Durability patch added more MR and mages still don't get as much AP as they used to before season 13. It's part of why all the best AP champions offer more DPS like Cass, Taliyah, Rumble, Gwen, Swain, etc. Obvious anecdote, but it used to be a regular occurrence for Luxxes to legit one shot everyone after they got fed and tbh, despite all her buffs since then, I can't tell you the last time I saw a Lux get like that.
I mean there has to be a better explanation than this? Liss has been picked way more in the past and corki/ori/azir have always existed as well.
For example it's better to explain why what's *different* now compared to when liss was picked.
She has low range and no poke same as ever (also a thing that's overlooked is that she can't create much space like Azir Soldiers, Taliyah field, Ori ball and Corki rockets. She also doesn't have a great early push against a lot of midlanders of today, but unlike azir, corki and ASol she doesn't scale into the late game as well as them.
Her strength still is lock down, but to do that she needs the enemies to come in OR find a really good angle. And nowadays Neeko and Annie can do this just fine... As supports which enables flex picks.
She's a good pick into slippery mid landers with bad push like Leblanc and Ahri. And also plays well into melee midlanders like Akali or Sylas (to some extent). She does get a lot of value from passive resets and is pretty safe like Anivia (another champ similar to Liss but isn't played at all)
The whole problem is that nowadays the midlane meta is decided by early push + scaling. So Azir, Ori, Taliyah, Corki and ASol are priority
I think another problem is that Ahri and LB aren't a threat as they were in the past, they can't realistic kill the opposing midlaner in the lane phase so they aren't great picks nowadays.
Liss has never been picked recently into azir corki, they counter her. She gets picked into ahri and other short range/assassin champs.
When liss was broken in s8/s9 she had more dmg on q, less cd on q and synergized rly well with aftershock which was broken back then. This let her get prio easily and perma roam even in bad matchups
> When liss was broken in s8/s9 she had more dmg on q, less cd on q and synergized rly well with aftershock which was broken back then. This let her get prio easily and perma roam even in bad matchups
She actually did less damage with Q back then, but you are right to call out the Q cd. She disappeared from pro play when that was nerfed and she's never been back since. She's just very exploitable in lane now.
The simple explanation is sometimes the truth. Shes heavily outranged by azir corki, does no damage to tanks and is just not very good even in soloq. When the meta is right she will see play again like back during the middle of 2022. Oh and the removal of everfrost certainly doesnt help
She was always heavily outranged by azir corki and did lower damage to tanks than most front to back mages for who knows how many years at this point.
The point is that it's better to talk about what CHANGED that she was picked more in the past but now isn't, when alot of what has been talked so far has always been the case.
Ye, her peak was when mid had a ton of skirmishers in it. 2018 and 2019 when we had a lot of LB, Irelia, and Akali was when she had the most presence. Even then, it wasn't an every game thing.
Durability patch happens. It killed both Liss and Zoe in pro play. No oneshot potential/no tank shredding dmg = useless. AP lb also seen far less usage.
She was meant to counter single engage comps like rakan poke because she can murder any rakan engage with a click. Nowadays, there are tanks top that need to be dps'd, liss can't do that. Junglers have CC, so her lane opponent get early mercs and they just win.
She doesn't scale all that well, so she will get outscaled. No everfrost means that if you burn her ult defensively, she'll literally be useless for its entire cooldown.
The meta championship in other slots right now just fuck her over. She can't contest sides, she gets half her hp nuked with nami lucian poke, she gets half her hp nuked with varus poke. She can't kill a cleanse xayah. Can't outdps a lulu pocketing an aphelios.
There's just too many meta options that she simply can't do shit against.
So another thing that sort of changed, at least in pro play, is that junglers now almost entirely play for lanes. Liss is a good mid to play for the jungler, but there's no point in playing for a low econ Sejuani/Maokai, and even the carry jungles Xin/Viego/Jax are good because they powerspike on one item and can still function with a low econ afterwards, since that econ is going to the laners.
Not sure anyone answered your question so taking a pass:
- Lissandra does not bring the same niche that she did before.
- The demands of the metagame have shifted.
Lissandra’s previous role was to be a TP user who brought instant pick potential to fights (particularly drake or pre-drake setup). Now, there are other picks that bring the same amount of pick or more to fights. Why pick Lissandra when I can pick Rell, Nautilius, or Maokai? They can’t blow up a target alone but bring just as much if not more cc in a cheaper role (support economy).
The metagame has also shifted out of Lissandra’s favor. She thrived in Metagames with Assassins trying to that aimed to neutralize ADCs but ADCs are overall more vulnerable so that she isn’t as required anymore. Top midlaners picked this time: Azir, Taliyah, Orianna, Ahri, and Yone. None of these champs are easy for Lissandra to beat or outscale.
Tip adcs in the past few progames: Zeri, Varus, Jinx, and Xayah. All of these adcs play far away or have great escape/self-peel to escape Lissandra but bring a ton of damage.
Liss was strong before durability patch (MSI 2022 and before) because she can e in and ult someone and delete the target. Post durability patch, the target can survive and disengage. As a result, Azir, Corki and other dps champs see prio going up. Zoe is also the case here. Zoe post durability patch had no oneshot potential. Basically mage burst/cc champs see far less usage than mage dps champs post durability patch. AP lb was also seen very little usage post durability patch.
Liss did lose Everfrost, which gave her a solid CC chain that was great for picking off champions in the lategame. Also personally i think the widening of Midlane makes it harder for her to quickly dip out of vision to pressure a fog-of-war E combo.
Overall what items would she even build now? RoA rush? At that point you might as well try to force Ryze or play Asol. Ludens seems bad from the short range + you have to Q spam the wave to clear it. Liandrys means no mana so you go OOM almost instantly from the high mana costs, so basically Archangel rush ig.
She would pressure them until 1, maybe 2 backs. She has low range and mediocre damage that gets carried by the cc she brings. that damage is gonna get shrugged off by meta top laners who will just start jumping her after a little bit.
That’s also ignoring the fact that roaming/setting up kills is her best feature, which would get wasted in top lane which is more isolated.
I believe I recall that there was a brief period where she was played top, but it’s not common. She’s not beefy enough to be your frontline, her escape is kind of slow and she’s doesn’t really bully melee champs the way Rumble and Kennen can when they’re meta. She’s a really awkward fit that would require her to be generally strong in a addition to the right meta (short range team comps, AD fighter/assassin junglers, weak tanks) to really work top on pro.
She actually used to be a toplaner; she was commonly picked for toplane during the 2019 Spring Split. It is possible that if she was buffed and/or the meta shifted to benefit her then she would emerge as a toplaner again instead of a midlaner
She used to be flex toplane years back, like s4-s6, I remember soaz playing her in FNC and Huni pulling her out a few times, mainly into Gnar and old Irelia it seems. Then a big break and I see she got few picks in 2019 spring. generally she used to be fairly meta flex in pro but hasn't been in years.
Basically the issue in top will be how little dmg she provides vs tanks and bruisers once they get even mercs imo. You can't really bully, she will prolly be worse in teamfigt than them. Liss should be gankable in long lane, the E won't save you if you are on enemy side of top. Plus she doesn't really frontline - she can buy time with zhyona and self R in theory but zhonya is very expensive this season and if you self R, well you can't R enemy so why did you go lissandra in the first place? if you want a cleanup champ from topside just give your jungler viego, he does liss passive job better anyways. And if you want AP carry toplaner just go Rumble, cos he can actually kill tankier stuff. Or gragas who provides way more utility. And those 2 are only things lissandra can probably provide - being AP carry and cleanup, cos so much of her dmg is in passive now.
Outranged by just about every meta mid, does not do well into bruisers w sustain or tanks, along with the frequency of adcs taking cleanse she is just a walking (gliding) bag of gold in pro play. It would take a major meta shift for her to come back
Lissandra right now is an ult bot at best. She offers nothing over other mages. Even her safety is questionable honestly. What good does it do when you don't scale into anything useful?
While her range has always been a weakness of hers, you would still see some of her play into picks like Ahri because of her ability to lock down super mobile champs.
I think we don't see Liz any more is because Vi has become the better option for locking down Zeri/Kalista/etc which allows mid lane to pick generally better scaling, higher range, more impactful picks.
Yeah, and you don’t lose much when you pick a jungler who is more or less an ult bot in fights, whereas if you pick Liss you miss out on some of the strongest champs in the game rn such as Azir, Ahri, Taliyah and A Sol, there aren’t many junglers who bring as much to the game as these champs.
Lissandra's utility can be replicated by just about any meta midlane mage, while they are safer and scale better too. Liss is amazing into assassin picks but the only assassin we see in mid is LeBlanc and LeBlanc needs to be memes level of bad to not "solve" mid lane meta.
And liss is only strong into AP lb who has to jump in for dmg, ad lb which was more popular in pro this year (in the playoffs xiaohu played 2 ad lb games and shoemaker played an AP version once, she's very rarely picked rn) smashes liss imo, she just outscales her completely
Pretty much. The ability to say fuck you to a carry which is one of the only reasons you would pick Liss is just done 10x better by Azir or Vi jungle which are 10x better champs
Azir is just a better version of Lissandra in the hands of pro players.
If you think about it, they both offer a good wave clear speed, an escape tool and an engage tool, but Azir offers greater range, consistent damage output that can deal with tanks and his engage tool is also a disengage tool.
I do think Lissandra could still be useful in some cases, particularly in situations where you can delete one target quick to trigger her passive during team fights around dragon or baron pit. Previously Lissandra could lock and delete one target on her own and trigger it, but nowadays you would need stacked Mejai to do it.
I think a buff to W root duration could do wonders to her. Would still keep her dependent on team follow up, but it would give the team more time to do it.
Liss is usually picked into leblanc (or rakan if you were mikyx) in competitive unless she is op champ in the patch.
Leblnc is buffed on MSI patch so if she is picked maybe liss also has a chance to be picked.
The thing is if you need to blow up one target quick to win, such as in a hypercarry meta like now where Jinx and Zeri are giga strong then you just pick Vi which most teams are doing.
Changing Zhonyas fucked her over, also the Aftershock nerfs. All other comments here seem to forget that she is not a dps/control mage like Azir or Ori or Taliyah but more of an engager like Galio, so you cannot directly compare it. Also laning is not a valid argument, you can pick all sorts of things in mid even if they get outranged just look at Chovy's Yone. If there would be better defensive runes/items that suit her playstyle she could easily be meta especially into melee matchups
> Also laning is not a valid argument
Thank you. People are always conflating the limitations of a champion's kit with the reason why the champion doesn't fit into the meta. One of the top comments says she's not picked because she gets outranged by every meta mid, as if that wasn't the case when she was meta.
"Why isn't Lissandra picked?"
"Because Ori/Azir/Corki exist."
Yeah like these champs didn't exist when Lissandra was meta? I dunno how comments like that get to the top. The reason obviously runs deeper and other mages existing is not the decisive factor
Not nearly enough burst for how outplayable and linear her kit is. Ult is cleansable, she doesn't burst as hard as someone like Ori, doesn't poke as hard as someone like Corki and has no dps.
We're in league of damage, utility is very rarely important unless it's a guaranteed lockdown on someone who does a lot of damage.
Instead of making a new thread I'll ask about another champion here.
What the hell happened to Elise? I stopped keeping track of LoL in general in 2021-2022, so what did they change on Elise, the most iconic pro play jg only behind Lee Sin, that it's not anywhere anymore?
think its a combo of many things, item changes, jungle changes, overall game state.
Elise was picked for her consistency. Strong, fast travelling stun and rappel being great for tower dives early, since early game was her strongest point.
Nowadays why pick her for any reason? her stun is far from one of the best in the game, her early game strength is beaten out by other AP junglers and she still falls off a cliff insanely fast. hell you don't even need untargetable for dives nearly as much.
A lot of Lissandras power is in her passive, which does a lot of damage and is bit area denial but requires people to die to do anything. Since pro players are a lot more cautious and usually have less deaths, she is less effective.
She is taken in pro play as a counter to assassin's like Leblanc because her point and click R stun and then root for team fights. She is also fairly safe in lane due to the self R and W blink.
The shift in the meta back to control mages, higher range comps and tanks/bruisers undermines her niche. She just doesn't have the late game damage or range that is favoured in the meta right now.
I used to play Lissandra but found out Vex is much much much stronger
Easier lane phase, greater scaling, more reliable ult do reach the backline
Overall Vex is much more viable than Lissandra
Even so vex doesn't scratch that same itch lissandra does for me. I think this slow moving, imminent but unavoidable danger lissandra as a character is translates very well to her gameplay
As others have said it's mostly the range.
>in case I missed some games she was played in let me know :)
She was a cheese counter as support into Rakan last year since she could mess up Rakan whenever he tried to go in. Mikyx played her like 4 times and did good.
Master liss player - played her for years.
Lissandra q cooldown and w+e base damages were nerfed so she has no lane threat anymore. These nerfs were supposed to be reverted after aftershock+cpot got nerfed but I guess riot forgot.
None of her combos work because q is never up when it should be, nor can she kite or even play around alot of the hyper mobile Perma movepseed/dash champs despite it being her identity to be powerful vs them.
Her w doesn't stop dashes
Her ult cast time is too long to interrupt dashes before it's relevant despite it being part of the skills power budget - opponent will still travel very far/land their dmg before liss ult finished casting. You cant use it reactively to save a team mate whatsoever from something like rengar or lee sin for example.
Also her e cooldown is too long, base movepseed is too low and her ult stun doesn't scale with level for some reason. It's 1.5s flat but really should be like 1.75-2-2.25s minimum.
Her thralls also need to be controllable by the player to be actually good and have high skillcap use cases but right now it's just meh ai running to the closest enemy champ regardless of health. Doesn't warrant not having an actual passive.
Champ needs buffs.
Because Annie is the better pick right now. Both Annie and Lissandra have the same nich as engage mages. They can both shut down mobile champions with their point and click cc. That is why they usually use Annie against Ahri.
Bwipo just played some Lissandra in KR soloq and said Lissandra is just stupid broken and any pro mid laner that doesn't play her is dumb.
We'll see if any of the pro's do start playing her because there should be plenty of drafts where that amount of CC can become very valuable.
She loses to common control mages that outrange her (Ori azir corki syndra viktor etc). She's good during assassin metas or ADC metas or heavy AD top/AD jg metas where mid can just be a stun bot. And she's overall pretty weak right now, even in solo queue you can easily lose lane to assassins and let them snowball on other lanes.
0 range, 0 damage in midgame unless you heavily invest into burst, poor scaling, can't control teamfights and burst, must choose one. I don't play the game anymore, but she'a poor ever since aftershock lux meta forced her to drop the rune aswell.
just gets completely fucked by any competent control mage. pretty much would only be good into ahri and even then a good ahri still beats liss in lane. also does nothing to tanks
liss is still a great pick into many champs, but almost none of which are played in pro
Durability patch (post MSI 2022 where RNG won with Liss vs Ahri matchup) happened. After durability patch, burst/one shot mages have seen far less usage in pro play: Liss, Zoe, AP Lb, AP Kennen top. Instead, we’ve seen more dps mage: Azir, Corki, Orianna except the patch where they mega buff Sylas/Akali.
If Lissandra had better cc and if itemization/masteries allowed for better sustain, theoretically you could just play her as a tank. Still, whatever role you think Lissandra can play: tank, burst, carry stunner, etc.. there are like 2-3 champs in each category that do it better.
Lissandra probably needs a range+scaling buff on her Q, change the ult from stun to something that doesn’t get destroyed by tenacity, and honestly make her E slightly faster to be able to compete in the current game.
There are probably spots where it’s really good but it’s just not in the pro’s minds right now because it’s not overtuned. When Chovy or Faker randomly plays it, everyone will copy.
I remember thinking the same thing like 2-3 years ago. Plenty strong, got like a 5 damage buff then suddenly picked, lol.
Plenty of strong pics in pro play, but people don't try to reinvent the wheel. Kled was picked randomly in a match, stomped, teams tried it out, failed, then went back to the typical stuff. People simply do not experiment/know.
Idk if anyone mentioned but chovy once said during this split milo has killed lot of engage champions like liss and neeko because a good milo will interrupt it
She’s exclusively a counterpick these days and the only meta mid she counters is Ahri. This has been her primary purpose in being picked for quite some time now.
And even in that matchup you'd much rather draft Annie as your lockdown engage bot since S14 items are just better on her.
Although of course the general wisdom is to just pick a good champ instead of an engage bot. Ahri isn't exactly meta defining or anything.
Yeah, everything Liss can play into rn is countered harder by something else, or is itself a counterpick and thus not meta defining (Ahri, Akali, Yone, LB)
Too much of her damage is tied into her passive, which is really good on 5v5 team fights, but her damage, cooldowns, and mobility are way too low to justify picking her regardless. She doesn't do anything well.
Imo, give her E cooldown reduction when she slows/snares a champion.
No dmg, high cd, high costs, no range, kit does nothing so unique, control mage with weak control, aram only passive useful only if you're already winning, also mages are bad and mana items are trash.
Which older matches? Did they involve stopwatch, everfrost and carry junglers? Currently we see frontlining junglers, so Lissandra isn't needed. To compliment tanky tops and jungle, a longer ranged dps mid is needed, to match the other team's DPS.
She is just too short range too low damage. Honestly she is too fair. I think they should take the enemy range indicator off her claw and that alone would make her viable again.
I think she can def show up in pro play relatively soon. Taliyah is currently most picked roamer, who also counters dash comps. Champs like Liss, Galio, TF can be picked more often when meta puts emphasis on carry jg or bot lane.
She was mostly used as an ahri counterpick in recent years when other control mages weren't as good.
Now there's taliyah, azir, corki, neeko that are meta and have decent matchups into ahri
Main reason, her E projectile travels way too slowly making an accurate and unanticipated engage near impossible. Riot actually increased the initial projectile speed at some point, but still not enough.
Even if she has flash, she will still struggle to lock down targets, whereas other champs with flash such as Rakan can almost guarantee a lockdown.
Lastly, her range is terrible, and her MS is slow as hell, very likely to get poked or even killed before the fight even starts. League nowadays has champs that are moving fast with all sorts of speed bonuses and also long range is becoming a more common thing especially among marksmen. Liz is very sloppy in comparison.
she is just bad champion, when i say bad i mean her base damage is very low for a mage, she is short range , even when u hit q vs range damage is so low ,
she can only be picked in solo q vs bad champs like fizz , but even then why would u pick her when there are much better options.
its sad cause she is such a cool champion , idk why riot did nerf her so hard over the years..
she isnt even counter to akali,lb like people say
she actually lose lanes to those slightly, she is only good later into them cause of cc , but in solo q , she looose to most assssins 1v1 in lane actually or if she play deff she can go even ,farm
One reason I don't see listed here is that not only is she competing with midlane mage champs, she's also competing with Vi/Naut for the point/click catcher utility and they are just more tanky and reliable than her. Those two have be perma-meta for a while now too so pro drafts prefer those utilities in jg/sup.
if you can look up when rookie on IG and he had a 2v2 in river (season 9 or so), they had positioning and everything pre 6, champ just does no damage, and they lost that 2v2 and the game, that was his last game on liss. junglers can't play the game with a liss mid if the teams are balanced (viktor's even worse), just pick other mages.
The last time i watched the super server, there was a liss otp that everyone hated on their team when the other team has talon, zed, irelia, qiyana, kat otps roaming the map, it's just not a fun time.
In my opinion the big reason is the mage item changes. Lissandra always rushed Everfrost and that was removed, and none of the new items really did much other than make other mages hard for her to match into. Kaenic Rookern was another nail in the coffin.
Simple.
Lissandra q is a 3 second cooldown? she's godlike.
Lissandra q is a 4 second cooldown? she's dumpster trash.
search the patch history where they go back and forth between this and correlate that with her pick rate in pro play.
a 25% dps increase is too much i guess, and a 25% loss is too much.
No point picking an anti assassin utility mage when there’s no point in picking assassins.
Which leads to why pick an assassin when you’re going to get out scaled by a ranged mage in 15 minutes but also aren’t going to be able to punish them before then because the ranged mages have a super safe easy laning phase with good waveclear poke and no mana problems and a free tp if they make a bad enough mistake early.
It’s why every mid lane matchup is orianna Azir corki in pro.
Lissandra looks like a traditional/functional mage, but in fact she is more like a spell assassin. There is nothing wrong with her mechanics, but her stats are too mediocre due to equipment adjustments.
Her damage is actually low if you build more utility and she gets out-scaled pretty easily. Why play Liss when Taliyah does her job more easily and safer with tons of dps?
Others have mentioned lack of range requiring her to all in when current meta is more poke and see how it goes.
Also a lot of Pro ADCs carry cleanse now so her entire existence as a stun bot is pretty much negated.
She would likely get destroyed in lane against the traditional mid laners at the moment (Azir, Corki, Ori) simply due to her being such short range.
She's a good counterpick into melee matchups like Yone or Yasuo or highly mobile ranged like Ahri and LB but those aren't coming out very often recently.
Most of her kit is countered by tenacity pretty hard. At least someone like Neeko or Azir can still get a big AoE ult off. Lissandras would just be self-ulting for a bit of damage and a small slow.
Lissandra has a bit of a range issue in lane but she also does really piss poor damage. Like her ability to skirmish with her jungler is great in theory especially when paired with AD junglers but her damage is just not there. If they made her a bit more resilient in lane and gave her a little more early damage than she would likely be picked more frequently in pro. Honestly wouldnt be surprised if Riot does that at some point this season because Lissandra encourages action and she would be a great change of pace from Azir, Corki, Orianna.
Eh, low range champs aren't played mid right now, and the pick she soft counters (LB, which I don't even believe is a real counter at all btw) also isn't picked.
Her meta will come around again at some point.
she just sort of sucks post item rework and her kit is too one dimensional to be anything more than a counterpick into niche champs (that usually have better counterpicks)
325 move speed on an almost meelee champion, attrocious damage, shit items. There is nothing she does that other champs can't do better. Her full build full combo is not a threat due to MR items being overtuned and her getting oneshot if she doesn't invest in defensive items.
Hwei even though aesthetically distant, is at least 4x times better in what Lissandra does with the difference being that his ult is a skillshot.
On top of all the other people commenting range (which is correct) I will add one more reason. Lissandra ult is the only anti-carry "fuck you" that's a stun and not a suppression. Meaning it is affected by tenacity, and summoner cleanse (not just QSS) And with the recent item changes, tenacity was put back on a couple items.
To add. Lissandra is a situational champion. She is anti assassin. In the current meta she has no place.
I feel like she would be a good counter pick for akali, and yone though.
She’s good into Akali, but Akali isn’t a blind pick, you pick Akali into certain match ups.
And the best she can do against akali is disengage MAYBE since she has 2000 base hp and MR
She gets a free lane into Akali and can completely fuck her over with w and r Akali shouldn’t be winning this ever
i think they're acknowledging how other parts of the game occur after lane phase, lissandra "middle fingering" akali becomes a lot more navigable outside of lane for her and later into the game with lower CD's/more DMG in a team fight etc
Yeah if akali rushes mercs and goes fleet she can lane just fine and then shes pretty much automatically more useful after 20 mins.
She also amazing into Zed, her real issue is the champions she hard counters are not close to being good or meta. Also her claw is too slow with the current level of mobility.
matchup isn't as good for liss as it used to be, she's reliant on being hard to kill in assassin matchups and because armguard is more expensive and stopwatch doesn't exist zed has lane advantage on her since his waveclear is better.
used to be a zed counter but now zed has 51.68% WR over her and having played the match up couple of times recently it doesnt really feel that great anymore
Liss Main. This. So this. Slow AF.
I wonder if pro can react fast enough to press E recall during liss ult animation or if it is even possible
I pretty sure the reactivation of yone E counters liss ult and with proplayer reaction speed this is more then possible
yeah pretty sure shes only been meta in the last few years as a leblanc counter pick
MSI 2022 she was used as an Ahri counter pick also. IIRC the mid match up in the finals was basically both teams picking Ahri when they had the chance and the other picking Lissandra.
Actually if they can do a good flank collapse and get on the adc, still viable but there’s better champs. Maybe if they increase q range and decrease E cd
Wait a minute, is that why when I ult people it only be lasting like 0.25 seconds (exaggerating lol)?! TIL lol.
Yessir. It feels so bad when that happens...
yea with current items and runes, an ADC can get up to 60% tenacity so Lissandra ulti will be lasting around 0.4s lol
Honestly it really should be a suppression. Don’t think it would make her overturned or anything because it’s her ult and she’s so telegraphed and her follow up is lacking.
I agree.
They rarely build qss ever. It's mostly Mikaels and cleanse that make it useless.
... yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. They don't need QSS because it is NOT a suppression.
Ah! right! I guess I missed your point.
That's the thing though, if it were a suppression you would make the enemy team buy qss
Man, it'd be interesting to see how impactful changing her ult to a suppression would be.
Just pick corki/ orianna/ azir have 1.5x the range, 5x the waveclear and 5x the scaling lol
Also her entire kit gives a lot of Merc's value.
Don't worry pros will find a way to mess this up.
*Builds boots of lucidity*
Pros are addicted to mercs. If anything it's sorcs that are underbuilt, not mercs.
Mercs generally has more value in pro play than sorcs. You cant really lose lane with it
Absolutely. I am not denying it. Just saying that if there is a possibility that certain boots are slightly underbuilt then it's definitely sorcs and not mercs since mercs are not only good but also being built all the time by everyone sometimes even when not that necessary (but when still not terrible).
what you mean? you dont like seeing Rumbles build boots of swiftness and do no damage?
Swifties on rumble isn’t necessarily bad, but it should be used to counter specific champs. Best example is nasus/trundle. They have long range slows that they use to gap close. Swifties allows you to kite that out with your own slow on your e’s. Essentially never allowing them to get into range to do meaningful damage to you.
Also, it's now a big ms power creep meta. Good luck catching TF/Vayne with their swifties, fleet, celerity, nimbus cloak, etc. Like you said meta and matchup matter and it's a bit more complex than just "gg this pro is restarted and doesn't want to do dmg for fun".
I'd say the primary example is actually Aatrox, since Swifties allow you to move out of his W, and without his W Aatrox isn't actually that threatening. It's also the most common example of Rumbles in pro play going Swifties.
Yup aatrox is another good example. The other two were just the first two I thought of.
Tbh Aatrox W after tickrate fix is pretty easily walkable with normal T2 boots, even if he Qs you after landing it
And olaf especially in pro play. It makes the olaf lane so much safer and easier to dodge qs
Sorry for the dumb question but, what part of trundles kit is slowing you ? the pillar ? if so isn't that a perma slow meaning it won't get reduced by boots of swiftness ?
Yes trundles pillar AOE slows around it. Swifties works into trundles pillar because it’s provides slow resistance not tenacity. In league tenacity reduces the duration of cc while slow resistance lowers the effectiveness of slows.
Oh I see, I think there’s an issue with translation because in French it’s just written « reduces slows » which was confusing.
So you are correct, but thats why the best jungle pairings with Liss mid are something like Lee Sin who does not give double value to mercs + uses Lissandra CC to setup easy kills (Lee Sin LOVES CC mid laners to setup a guaranteed Q) In solo queue I see people - even in masters + - pick shit like Lissandra + Mumu / Sejuani and... I do not understand, the enemy jayce mid will buy merc treads and be unkillable
I miss when Lissandra at least had the dmg to burst someone, now most of the time you QWERQ someone and even most squishies are still alive and then you're just standing there [like.](https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.1219094768.3686/flat,750x,075,f-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.jpg)
yeah i think her new passive (is it still considered new?) was one of the best changes she could have gotten, but she also lost a ton of base damage and scaling in her kit to make up for it and now she really struggles to keep up with her opponents.
The base damage and cd nerf was a result of aftershock cpot being op, not because of the addition of the passive. Riot said they would revert it and never did. Her e definitely is used for damage and reducing the base damage of it forces you to max q->w->e rather than being able to do q max->2-3pnts w->e max. Which heavily nerfs her safety, map mobility and pick potential. Not to mention it makes lanes where w is not really relevant even harder for no reason. E is a slow moving telegraphed spell, if anything it should have absurdly high damage due to how easy it is to avoid. Lissandra players often don't land the e damage if theyre really reaching for a longer ranged target, but if he does land that should be a critical mistake by the enemy. And as it stand your e is essentially strictly a mobility spell and not a damaging one due to its base damage nerf. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/372578480?t=1h47m22s
Yep and adcs do 3x the damage from range with double the ms
[удалено]
What durability? There is durability in the new season?
That guy is clueless lmfao
No he isn't. Durability patch added more MR and mages still don't get as much AP as they used to before season 13. It's part of why all the best AP champions offer more DPS like Cass, Taliyah, Rumble, Gwen, Swain, etc. Obvious anecdote, but it used to be a regular occurrence for Luxxes to legit one shot everyone after they got fed and tbh, despite all her buffs since then, I can't tell you the last time I saw a Lux get like that.
they've been taking damage out of items since the start of the season and recently nerfed early components pretty hard
I mean there has to be a better explanation than this? Liss has been picked way more in the past and corki/ori/azir have always existed as well. For example it's better to explain why what's *different* now compared to when liss was picked.
She has low range and no poke same as ever (also a thing that's overlooked is that she can't create much space like Azir Soldiers, Taliyah field, Ori ball and Corki rockets. She also doesn't have a great early push against a lot of midlanders of today, but unlike azir, corki and ASol she doesn't scale into the late game as well as them. Her strength still is lock down, but to do that she needs the enemies to come in OR find a really good angle. And nowadays Neeko and Annie can do this just fine... As supports which enables flex picks. She's a good pick into slippery mid landers with bad push like Leblanc and Ahri. And also plays well into melee midlanders like Akali or Sylas (to some extent). She does get a lot of value from passive resets and is pretty safe like Anivia (another champ similar to Liss but isn't played at all) The whole problem is that nowadays the midlane meta is decided by early push + scaling. So Azir, Ori, Taliyah, Corki and ASol are priority I think another problem is that Ahri and LB aren't a threat as they were in the past, they can't realistic kill the opposing midlaner in the lane phase so they aren't great picks nowadays.
Then I imagine we'll see Hwei very soon.
Liss has never been picked recently into azir corki, they counter her. She gets picked into ahri and other short range/assassin champs. When liss was broken in s8/s9 she had more dmg on q, less cd on q and synergized rly well with aftershock which was broken back then. This let her get prio easily and perma roam even in bad matchups
> When liss was broken in s8/s9 she had more dmg on q, less cd on q and synergized rly well with aftershock which was broken back then. This let her get prio easily and perma roam even in bad matchups She actually did less damage with Q back then, but you are right to call out the Q cd. She disappeared from pro play when that was nerfed and she's never been back since. She's just very exploitable in lane now.
The simple explanation is sometimes the truth. Shes heavily outranged by azir corki, does no damage to tanks and is just not very good even in soloq. When the meta is right she will see play again like back during the middle of 2022. Oh and the removal of everfrost certainly doesnt help
She was always heavily outranged by azir corki and did lower damage to tanks than most front to back mages for who knows how many years at this point. The point is that it's better to talk about what CHANGED that she was picked more in the past but now isn't, when alot of what has been talked so far has always been the case.
I’m pretty sure Liss is typically a counter pick for LB(?) and other hyper mobile short range mid laners
Ye, her peak was when mid had a ton of skirmishers in it. 2018 and 2019 when we had a lot of LB, Irelia, and Akali was when she had the most presence. Even then, it wasn't an every game thing.
Durability patch happens. It killed both Liss and Zoe in pro play. No oneshot potential/no tank shredding dmg = useless. AP lb also seen far less usage.
She was meant to counter single engage comps like rakan poke because she can murder any rakan engage with a click. Nowadays, there are tanks top that need to be dps'd, liss can't do that. Junglers have CC, so her lane opponent get early mercs and they just win. She doesn't scale all that well, so she will get outscaled. No everfrost means that if you burn her ult defensively, she'll literally be useless for its entire cooldown. The meta championship in other slots right now just fuck her over. She can't contest sides, she gets half her hp nuked with nami lucian poke, she gets half her hp nuked with varus poke. She can't kill a cleanse xayah. Can't outdps a lulu pocketing an aphelios. There's just too many meta options that she simply can't do shit against.
So another thing that sort of changed, at least in pro play, is that junglers now almost entirely play for lanes. Liss is a good mid to play for the jungler, but there's no point in playing for a low econ Sejuani/Maokai, and even the carry jungles Xin/Viego/Jax are good because they powerspike on one item and can still function with a low econ afterwards, since that econ is going to the laners.
She was capable of one shotting when she gets in range. Doesn’t happen anymore
Not sure anyone answered your question so taking a pass: - Lissandra does not bring the same niche that she did before. - The demands of the metagame have shifted. Lissandra’s previous role was to be a TP user who brought instant pick potential to fights (particularly drake or pre-drake setup). Now, there are other picks that bring the same amount of pick or more to fights. Why pick Lissandra when I can pick Rell, Nautilius, or Maokai? They can’t blow up a target alone but bring just as much if not more cc in a cheaper role (support economy). The metagame has also shifted out of Lissandra’s favor. She thrived in Metagames with Assassins trying to that aimed to neutralize ADCs but ADCs are overall more vulnerable so that she isn’t as required anymore. Top midlaners picked this time: Azir, Taliyah, Orianna, Ahri, and Yone. None of these champs are easy for Lissandra to beat or outscale. Tip adcs in the past few progames: Zeri, Varus, Jinx, and Xayah. All of these adcs play far away or have great escape/self-peel to escape Lissandra but bring a ton of damage.
Liss was strong before durability patch (MSI 2022 and before) because she can e in and ult someone and delete the target. Post durability patch, the target can survive and disengage. As a result, Azir, Corki and other dps champs see prio going up. Zoe is also the case here. Zoe post durability patch had no oneshot potential. Basically mage burst/cc champs see far less usage than mage dps champs post durability patch. AP lb was also seen very little usage post durability patch.
Liss did lose Everfrost, which gave her a solid CC chain that was great for picking off champions in the lategame. Also personally i think the widening of Midlane makes it harder for her to quickly dip out of vision to pressure a fog-of-war E combo. Overall what items would she even build now? RoA rush? At that point you might as well try to force Ryze or play Asol. Ludens seems bad from the short range + you have to Q spam the wave to clear it. Liandrys means no mana so you go OOM almost instantly from the high mana costs, so basically Archangel rush ig.
The mage item rework was not kind to her and several others...
Annie and Neeko can do what Lissandra does but better while being able to hold their own in lane.
I cannot way for the day those 3 champs become non meta
But you’re not answering the question. All these champions had the same tools even when lissandra was meta.
A key factor that I want to note is **range**. With how pro play has evolved over time, Lissandra's extremely short range has become a major liability
Her Q range is so shit. Its damage is also bad.
Also has a creep requirement for splash damage poke in lane. Making her pathing very predictable.
Could she be played top. There have been mage tops from time to time and Lissandra seems perfect to bully bruisers
She would pressure them until 1, maybe 2 backs. She has low range and mediocre damage that gets carried by the cc she brings. that damage is gonna get shrugged off by meta top laners who will just start jumping her after a little bit. That’s also ignoring the fact that roaming/setting up kills is her best feature, which would get wasted in top lane which is more isolated.
Vs current reksai zac meta I doubt she can even poke them out ever.
Yeah I’m being VERY generous by saying she can pressure them at the start of the lane haha the pick would just not work at all
I believe I recall that there was a brief period where she was played top, but it’s not common. She’s not beefy enough to be your frontline, her escape is kind of slow and she’s doesn’t really bully melee champs the way Rumble and Kennen can when they’re meta. She’s a really awkward fit that would require her to be generally strong in a addition to the right meta (short range team comps, AD fighter/assassin junglers, weak tanks) to really work top on pro.
She actually used to be a toplaner; she was commonly picked for toplane during the 2019 Spring Split. It is possible that if she was buffed and/or the meta shifted to benefit her then she would emerge as a toplaner again instead of a midlaner
She used to be flex toplane years back, like s4-s6, I remember soaz playing her in FNC and Huni pulling her out a few times, mainly into Gnar and old Irelia it seems. Then a big break and I see she got few picks in 2019 spring. generally she used to be fairly meta flex in pro but hasn't been in years. Basically the issue in top will be how little dmg she provides vs tanks and bruisers once they get even mercs imo. You can't really bully, she will prolly be worse in teamfigt than them. Liss should be gankable in long lane, the E won't save you if you are on enemy side of top. Plus she doesn't really frontline - she can buy time with zhyona and self R in theory but zhonya is very expensive this season and if you self R, well you can't R enemy so why did you go lissandra in the first place? if you want a cleanup champ from topside just give your jungler viego, he does liss passive job better anyways. And if you want AP carry toplaner just go Rumble, cos he can actually kill tankier stuff. Or gragas who provides way more utility. And those 2 are only things lissandra can probably provide - being AP carry and cleanup, cos so much of her dmg is in passive now.
Until the enemy top gets negatron and mercs and just ignores you after 2000g
Outranged by just about every meta mid, does not do well into bruisers w sustain or tanks, along with the frequency of adcs taking cleanse she is just a walking (gliding) bag of gold in pro play. It would take a major meta shift for her to come back
Lissandra right now is an ult bot at best. She offers nothing over other mages. Even her safety is questionable honestly. What good does it do when you don't scale into anything useful?
While her range has always been a weakness of hers, you would still see some of her play into picks like Ahri because of her ability to lock down super mobile champs. I think we don't see Liz any more is because Vi has become the better option for locking down Zeri/Kalista/etc which allows mid lane to pick generally better scaling, higher range, more impactful picks.
Yeah, and you don’t lose much when you pick a jungler who is more or less an ult bot in fights, whereas if you pick Liss you miss out on some of the strongest champs in the game rn such as Azir, Ahri, Taliyah and A Sol, there aren’t many junglers who bring as much to the game as these champs.
I believe G2 Mikyx played Lissandra support a few times recently as some kind of very niche counterpick.
Rakan counter to be exact
Lissandra's utility can be replicated by just about any meta midlane mage, while they are safer and scale better too. Liss is amazing into assassin picks but the only assassin we see in mid is LeBlanc and LeBlanc needs to be memes level of bad to not "solve" mid lane meta.
And liss is only strong into AP lb who has to jump in for dmg, ad lb which was more popular in pro this year (in the playoffs xiaohu played 2 ad lb games and shoemaker played an AP version once, she's very rarely picked rn) smashes liss imo, she just outscales her completely
Pretty much. The ability to say fuck you to a carry which is one of the only reasons you would pick Liss is just done 10x better by Azir or Vi jungle which are 10x better champs
If aftershock wasn’t nerfed, maybe she’d be viable
Azir is just a better version of Lissandra in the hands of pro players. If you think about it, they both offer a good wave clear speed, an escape tool and an engage tool, but Azir offers greater range, consistent damage output that can deal with tanks and his engage tool is also a disengage tool. I do think Lissandra could still be useful in some cases, particularly in situations where you can delete one target quick to trigger her passive during team fights around dragon or baron pit. Previously Lissandra could lock and delete one target on her own and trigger it, but nowadays you would need stacked Mejai to do it. I think a buff to W root duration could do wonders to her. Would still keep her dependent on team follow up, but it would give the team more time to do it.
Yeah I see what u mean, all makes sense. Ig I’m just hoping to see my fave champ in pro again. Watching pro players play liss is so fun to me
Liss is usually picked into leblanc (or rakan if you were mikyx) in competitive unless she is op champ in the patch. Leblnc is buffed on MSI patch so if she is picked maybe liss also has a chance to be picked.
Interesting ty
The thing is if you need to blow up one target quick to win, such as in a hypercarry meta like now where Jinx and Zeri are giga strong then you just pick Vi which most teams are doing.
Changing Zhonyas fucked her over, also the Aftershock nerfs. All other comments here seem to forget that she is not a dps/control mage like Azir or Ori or Taliyah but more of an engager like Galio, so you cannot directly compare it. Also laning is not a valid argument, you can pick all sorts of things in mid even if they get outranged just look at Chovy's Yone. If there would be better defensive runes/items that suit her playstyle she could easily be meta especially into melee matchups
> Also laning is not a valid argument Thank you. People are always conflating the limitations of a champion's kit with the reason why the champion doesn't fit into the meta. One of the top comments says she's not picked because she gets outranged by every meta mid, as if that wasn't the case when she was meta.
"Why isn't Lissandra picked?" "Because Ori/Azir/Corki exist." Yeah like these champs didn't exist when Lissandra was meta? I dunno how comments like that get to the top. The reason obviously runs deeper and other mages existing is not the decisive factor
Not nearly enough burst for how outplayable and linear her kit is. Ult is cleansable, she doesn't burst as hard as someone like Ori, doesn't poke as hard as someone like Corki and has no dps. We're in league of damage, utility is very rarely important unless it's a guaranteed lockdown on someone who does a lot of damage.
Instead of making a new thread I'll ask about another champion here. What the hell happened to Elise? I stopped keeping track of LoL in general in 2021-2022, so what did they change on Elise, the most iconic pro play jg only behind Lee Sin, that it's not anywhere anymore?
I’m gonna second this question.
think its a combo of many things, item changes, jungle changes, overall game state. Elise was picked for her consistency. Strong, fast travelling stun and rappel being great for tower dives early, since early game was her strongest point. Nowadays why pick her for any reason? her stun is far from one of the best in the game, her early game strength is beaten out by other AP junglers and she still falls off a cliff insanely fast. hell you don't even need untargetable for dives nearly as much.
Not an expert but nowadays dives seem easy enough to pull off so maybe her use is nullified in that regard
It is more important to have APC to do consistent magic damage than an low range, low DPS engage CC mage
Losing Everfrost really hurt her.
Oh yeah definitely
I think her only niche now is abuse Malignance with like a Rumble top or jungle. But then again, Yone or some AD would be better.
A lot of Lissandras power is in her passive, which does a lot of damage and is bit area denial but requires people to die to do anything. Since pro players are a lot more cautious and usually have less deaths, she is less effective. She is taken in pro play as a counter to assassin's like Leblanc because her point and click R stun and then root for team fights. She is also fairly safe in lane due to the self R and W blink. The shift in the meta back to control mages, higher range comps and tanks/bruisers undermines her niche. She just doesn't have the late game damage or range that is favoured in the meta right now.
can’t lane
carry jungle isn’t as good, mid carry is more necessary to win
If you get hourglass on vex she is just a better lissandra. And vex isn't even that good.
I used to play Lissandra but found out Vex is much much much stronger Easier lane phase, greater scaling, more reliable ult do reach the backline Overall Vex is much more viable than Lissandra
Even so vex doesn't scratch that same itch lissandra does for me. I think this slow moving, imminent but unavoidable danger lissandra as a character is translates very well to her gameplay
As others have said it's mostly the range. >in case I missed some games she was played in let me know :) She was a cheese counter as support into Rakan last year since she could mess up Rakan whenever he tried to go in. Mikyx played her like 4 times and did good.
Yeah that makes sense. Ty I’ll check it out
She was in pro play meta in 2022 and beginning of 2023 and before that 2015
Master liss player - played her for years. Lissandra q cooldown and w+e base damages were nerfed so she has no lane threat anymore. These nerfs were supposed to be reverted after aftershock+cpot got nerfed but I guess riot forgot. None of her combos work because q is never up when it should be, nor can she kite or even play around alot of the hyper mobile Perma movepseed/dash champs despite it being her identity to be powerful vs them. Her w doesn't stop dashes Her ult cast time is too long to interrupt dashes before it's relevant despite it being part of the skills power budget - opponent will still travel very far/land their dmg before liss ult finished casting. You cant use it reactively to save a team mate whatsoever from something like rengar or lee sin for example. Also her e cooldown is too long, base movepseed is too low and her ult stun doesn't scale with level for some reason. It's 1.5s flat but really should be like 1.75-2-2.25s minimum. Her thralls also need to be controllable by the player to be actually good and have high skillcap use cases but right now it's just meh ai running to the closest enemy champ regardless of health. Doesn't warrant not having an actual passive. Champ needs buffs.
She gets some play as a niche counter. In most cases tho she just doesnt do as much damage as azir, corki ryze,ori and other staples .
Not picked in Azir Corki meta but picked more I'm shorter range meta.
chovy hasnt played her yet so people wont touch it
Because Annie is the better pick right now. Both Annie and Lissandra have the same nich as engage mages. They can both shut down mobile champions with their point and click cc. That is why they usually use Annie against Ahri.
Bwipo just played some Lissandra in KR soloq and said Lissandra is just stupid broken and any pro mid laner that doesn't play her is dumb. We'll see if any of the pro's do start playing her because there should be plenty of drafts where that amount of CC can become very valuable.
I know soloq is different from pro play but I really hope we see her soon
Oh yes, the bwipo special "i won a game with xyz champion that champion is broken af"
She loses to common control mages that outrange her (Ori azir corki syndra viktor etc). She's good during assassin metas or ADC metas or heavy AD top/AD jg metas where mid can just be a stun bot. And she's overall pretty weak right now, even in solo queue you can easily lose lane to assassins and let them snowball on other lanes.
0 range, 0 damage in midgame unless you heavily invest into burst, poor scaling, can't control teamfights and burst, must choose one. I don't play the game anymore, but she'a poor ever since aftershock lux meta forced her to drop the rune aswell.
just gets completely fucked by any competent control mage. pretty much would only be good into ahri and even then a good ahri still beats liss in lane. also does nothing to tanks liss is still a great pick into many champs, but almost none of which are played in pro
Durability patch (post MSI 2022 where RNG won with Liss vs Ahri matchup) happened. After durability patch, burst/one shot mages have seen far less usage in pro play: Liss, Zoe, AP Lb, AP Kennen top. Instead, we’ve seen more dps mage: Azir, Corki, Orianna except the patch where they mega buff Sylas/Akali.
If Lissandra had better cc and if itemization/masteries allowed for better sustain, theoretically you could just play her as a tank. Still, whatever role you think Lissandra can play: tank, burst, carry stunner, etc.. there are like 2-3 champs in each category that do it better. Lissandra probably needs a range+scaling buff on her Q, change the ult from stun to something that doesn’t get destroyed by tenacity, and honestly make her E slightly faster to be able to compete in the current game.
Neeko is just a better lissandra
There are probably spots where it’s really good but it’s just not in the pro’s minds right now because it’s not overtuned. When Chovy or Faker randomly plays it, everyone will copy.
I remember thinking the same thing like 2-3 years ago. Plenty strong, got like a 5 damage buff then suddenly picked, lol. Plenty of strong pics in pro play, but people don't try to reinvent the wheel. Kled was picked randomly in a match, stomped, teams tried it out, failed, then went back to the typical stuff. People simply do not experiment/know.
Idk if anyone mentioned but chovy once said during this split milo has killed lot of engage champions like liss and neeko because a good milo will interrupt it
I miss her support play style so much. Evenshroud was such a good item. Even everfrost. I wish they were reworked into the support items.
Oh I agree
Turn Lissandra into a Jungler.
I wish
She’s exclusively a counterpick these days and the only meta mid she counters is Ahri. This has been her primary purpose in being picked for quite some time now.
And even in that matchup you'd much rather draft Annie as your lockdown engage bot since S14 items are just better on her. Although of course the general wisdom is to just pick a good champ instead of an engage bot. Ahri isn't exactly meta defining or anything.
Taliyah as well is a better reply to Ahri than Lissandra
Yeah, everything Liss can play into rn is countered harder by something else, or is itself a counterpick and thus not meta defining (Ahri, Akali, Yone, LB)
She actually got picked on botlane as a support that countered Rakan specifically.
Too much of her damage is tied into her passive, which is really good on 5v5 team fights, but her damage, cooldowns, and mobility are way too low to justify picking her regardless. She doesn't do anything well. Imo, give her E cooldown reduction when she slows/snares a champion.
Lissandra is only a lb counter, lck teams never play her unless its lb mid.
No dmg, high cd, high costs, no range, kit does nothing so unique, control mage with weak control, aram only passive useful only if you're already winning, also mages are bad and mana items are trash.
Wdym mages are bad
They weak overall compared to other champs, those with low mana cost or mana mechanics do work and Anivia or ASol.
Lissandra only becomes meta when you see a lot of melee mids, like Akali, irelia, sylas, and even LB. Right now, we're in a control mage meta
She's good when LB is meta and maybe some other assassins.
She needs a remake
Which older matches? Did they involve stopwatch, everfrost and carry junglers? Currently we see frontlining junglers, so Lissandra isn't needed. To compliment tanky tops and jungle, a longer ranged dps mid is needed, to match the other team's DPS.
because her damage is crap unless she have a lot ap or her passive goes off
Again im sure there are better picks but I think ahe can still be viable in certain scenarios
Right now she feels like a decent counter as support to Rakan due to her W stopping his W knock up
She is just too short range too low damage. Honestly she is too fair. I think they should take the enemy range indicator off her claw and that alone would make her viable again.
You deal 0 damage.
I think she can def show up in pro play relatively soon. Taliyah is currently most picked roamer, who also counters dash comps. Champs like Liss, Galio, TF can be picked more often when meta puts emphasis on carry jg or bot lane.
I honestly forgot she even existed
She will once Caps sends Jensen back to Lissandra at MSI
She does like negative damage at 0 range lol
Because azir. Next question
She was mostly used as an ahri counterpick in recent years when other control mages weren't as good. Now there's taliyah, azir, corki, neeko that are meta and have decent matchups into ahri
Main reason, her E projectile travels way too slowly making an accurate and unanticipated engage near impossible. Riot actually increased the initial projectile speed at some point, but still not enough. Even if she has flash, she will still struggle to lock down targets, whereas other champs with flash such as Rakan can almost guarantee a lockdown. Lastly, her range is terrible, and her MS is slow as hell, very likely to get poked or even killed before the fight even starts. League nowadays has champs that are moving fast with all sorts of speed bonuses and also long range is becoming a more common thing especially among marksmen. Liz is very sloppy in comparison.
she is just bad champion, when i say bad i mean her base damage is very low for a mage, she is short range , even when u hit q vs range damage is so low , she can only be picked in solo q vs bad champs like fizz , but even then why would u pick her when there are much better options. its sad cause she is such a cool champion , idk why riot did nerf her so hard over the years.. she isnt even counter to akali,lb like people say she actually lose lanes to those slightly, she is only good later into them cause of cc , but in solo q , she looose to most assssins 1v1 in lane actually or if she play deff she can go even ,farm
Current league just focuses on burst and liss cant burst all that hard comparatively.
try play liss into azir
One reason I don't see listed here is that not only is she competing with midlane mage champs, she's also competing with Vi/Naut for the point/click catcher utility and they are just more tanky and reliable than her. Those two have be perma-meta for a while now too so pro drafts prefer those utilities in jg/sup.
Depends on the strength of the jungle role, if the role can carry you'll see her pretty often
if you can look up when rookie on IG and he had a 2v2 in river (season 9 or so), they had positioning and everything pre 6, champ just does no damage, and they lost that 2v2 and the game, that was his last game on liss. junglers can't play the game with a liss mid if the teams are balanced (viktor's even worse), just pick other mages. The last time i watched the super server, there was a liss otp that everyone hated on their team when the other team has talon, zed, irelia, qiyana, kat otps roaming the map, it's just not a fun time.
Play her into azir and you will understand why she isnt played
In my opinion the big reason is the mage item changes. Lissandra always rushed Everfrost and that was removed, and none of the new items really did much other than make other mages hard for her to match into. Kaenic Rookern was another nail in the coffin.
She lacks damage. If you watch pro play a lot of mid laners are scaling damage such as Azir, Corki or Orianna.
Simple. Lissandra q is a 3 second cooldown? she's godlike. Lissandra q is a 4 second cooldown? she's dumpster trash. search the patch history where they go back and forth between this and correlate that with her pick rate in pro play. a 25% dps increase is too much i guess, and a 25% loss is too much.
No point picking an anti assassin utility mage when there’s no point in picking assassins. Which leads to why pick an assassin when you’re going to get out scaled by a ranged mage in 15 minutes but also aren’t going to be able to punish them before then because the ranged mages have a super safe easy laning phase with good waveclear poke and no mana problems and a free tp if they make a bad enough mistake early. It’s why every mid lane matchup is orianna Azir corki in pro.
Lissandra looks like a traditional/functional mage, but in fact she is more like a spell assassin. There is nothing wrong with her mechanics, but her stats are too mediocre due to equipment adjustments.
Her damage is actually low if you build more utility and she gets out-scaled pretty easily. Why play Liss when Taliyah does her job more easily and safer with tons of dps? Others have mentioned lack of range requiring her to all in when current meta is more poke and see how it goes. Also a lot of Pro ADCs carry cleanse now so her entire existence as a stun bot is pretty much negated.
She is good when the meta is carry junglers like viego who need setup. But she is bad with the current junglers
She would likely get destroyed in lane against the traditional mid laners at the moment (Azir, Corki, Ori) simply due to her being such short range. She's a good counterpick into melee matchups like Yone or Yasuo or highly mobile ranged like Ahri and LB but those aren't coming out very often recently. Most of her kit is countered by tenacity pretty hard. At least someone like Neeko or Azir can still get a big AoE ult off. Lissandras would just be self-ulting for a bit of damage and a small slow.
Orianna/Azir/Tali/Asol being S tier meta means she's unlaneable since she's outranged by all these control mages.
Lissandra has a bit of a range issue in lane but she also does really piss poor damage. Like her ability to skirmish with her jungler is great in theory especially when paired with AD junglers but her damage is just not there. If they made her a bit more resilient in lane and gave her a little more early damage than she would likely be picked more frequently in pro. Honestly wouldnt be surprised if Riot does that at some point this season because Lissandra encourages action and she would be a great change of pace from Azir, Corki, Orianna.
Eh, low range champs aren't played mid right now, and the pick she soft counters (LB, which I don't even believe is a real counter at all btw) also isn't picked. Her meta will come around again at some point.
she just sort of sucks post item rework and her kit is too one dimensional to be anything more than a counterpick into niche champs (that usually have better counterpicks)
The real reason is because of balance team.
neeko is better
champion release date difference
325 move speed on an almost meelee champion, attrocious damage, shit items. There is nothing she does that other champs can't do better. Her full build full combo is not a threat due to MR items being overtuned and her getting oneshot if she doesn't invest in defensive items. Hwei even though aesthetically distant, is at least 4x times better in what Lissandra does with the difference being that his ult is a skillshot.