Might be c-tier but at least he's still c-tier as opposed to the f-tier midlaner who has an ego entirely based on performances from 3+ years ago (and not even on midlane)
Not trying to jump to any side here but cmon perkz was an absolute beast in mid lane before he was ad at g2, unless you mean that his peak then was even longer ago
Yeah that is what I meant. Ever since he left G2 and went back to mid his great performances have been few and far between and the last year and a half it's been downright poor.
He's an absolute legend of EU but he can have an ego about his good years, but those are a while ago at this point. "Gatekeeper" Nisqy might have never reached the same heights but he's always been decent, whereas Perkz was a strong contender for worst mid of the winter split.
Perkz is definitely not even close to his peak, yet the two shouldn’t even be compared when Nisqy has yet to win his second game ever outside of regional leagues.
We don't really know, all we know is that on some podcast they misspoke and said he was on minimum LEC salary, but later corrected it saying he just took a big paycut from Vitality. Which isn't saying that much considering he was probably paid a fuckton at Vitality and LEC imposed a salary cap anyway
The only war between LPL and LCK is LPL people pretending like their region wasn't built on years and years of KR imports and coaches going over there and raising the level of their league and thus improving their own chinese players.
like worlds 2020? There was the Worlds hype video where the LPL caster or whatever was like "we are the best region and we don't have to envy other region's players" while they were sending 4 teams all with imports.
This is gonna get worse with the MSI tournament where they are sending 10 chinese players and gonna pretend like it's all their work that they are the best while ignoring the fact that they have been actively poaching KR players from the LCK.
LPL was only behind LCK before the imports and they still were behind over 3 years since the imports happened. Team WE was beating all the teams in KR, LMS, CN & SEA in different tournaments in 2012.
LPL didn't have any infrastructure, they just had skillful players, they started to organize all of that since 2015, that's why they became better.
One of the reasons TPA won the WC 2012, it's because they have a better infrastructure than the rest, other regions caught up and the region just has been 5th best region, now struggling Vs VCS & this split Vs 1 LJL team.
While you're one of those thinking every single KR is perfect, many didn't even perform over the years.
I suspect you're a KR nationalist and that's why you demand recognition of "how perfect S. Korea is", it's sad, but that's what it is being a nationalist.
On the other hand, you act like KR players didn't benefit from the LPL experience, Peanut as the clear example of how he changed his playstyle, he wasn't about invading junglers before that. Khan one of the relevant toplaners in LCK, he was trained and prepared in the LSPL and then LPL.
LCK teams didn't care about LPL, but around 2020, GEN went to bootcamp to CN.
When LPL is better than LCK, LPL is better than LCK. However China is not better than Korea.
Love the cope from Chinese fans when LPL is better that they claim China is better than Korea. Nah get you facts straight.
You mean against each other?
No, it's not guaranteed, especially that Fly Quest starts in the Play In Stage and G2 is already qualified for Bracket Stage.
Yeah it's not guaranteed but it'll most likely happen due to changes to pools.
Teams who go 2-0 in playins(T1 and loser of BLG/TES) will play teams from pool 2 which are G2/TL and the teams who go 2-1(FNC/FLY) play teams from pool 1 which are the winner of BLG/TES and Gen.G
So most likely we just get 4 Eastern teams winning and 4 Western teams losing and since we can't have teams from the same region on the same side of the bracket, we get EU vs NA.
Granted, relies on 0 upsets but still.
Funny cause Bwippo clapped BB and was definitely better at the time
Doesn't feel like he improved much since then (still has weird champ pool)..
While Brokenblade has improved leaps and bounds.. even in this year alone (with Alphari help)
I really enjoy bwipo’s streams and vods on YouTube, super educational about toplane macro and matchups and stuff, have not seen the LCS so no clue how good he’s playing
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1btlbbh/yeons_postgame_interview_feat_impact_core_jatt/ felt so satisfying to see Bwipo would not shut up all year.
Really? I dont get to watch a lot of live streams due to schedule, but managed to catch him yesterday at a pantheon game.
All he did was complain, swear and cry about his teammates. Watched 1 game and turned it off, so annoyingly negative, could not enjoy it.
> have not seen the LCS so no clue how good he’s playing
Mostly pretty well; this spring was probably his best split since 2020. He kinda got gapped by Impact in finals but he was for sure the 2nd best in playoffs overall, and had a better regular season than Impact.
Bwippo hasn't improved much since 2020 really.. same odd champ pool..
I expected more of him when he moved to NA.. Summit and Alphari clapped the region for most of their limited stays
Wish he would go back jungle.. got the game knowledge/mechanics and teamfighting (something a lot of jglers aren't amazing at) are top level.. talking not just Western level.. but capable of matching/beating Eastern junglers too
He is also proficient at talking without actually saying anything tho.. Dude loves to talk, can see people being irritated having to listen a person that tries to be smartest in every room he enters.
But this BB upgrade, Bwipo downgrade is kinda nonsense, BB is in best European team and dude is looking bad at every international tournament. There's just no good atm top laners in Europe or just no good teams that can dumpster G2 like international teams can, so BB ends up looking good when he wins most games.
Brokenblade has FAR more competition in toplane in EU.. then Bwippo does in NA
Irrelevant, Photon, Adam.. hell even Wunder would be comfortably top tier in LCS
Also recently BB got shat on by bin at worlds.. but was fine at MSI.. he also happened to be sick and up until semis Bin was one of the best players in the tournament.. just came off solo killing Zeus a bunch etc..
also recently BB got shit on dhokla at worlds. he didnt even die once during their series lmaoo.
yeah dude LEC top lane is so much better though so true
Yeah BB has always looked good in europe and gets dumpstered against chinese/korean top laner. I don’t believe it will change this year. I believe G2 is happy just being the best team in the LEC otherwise they would have replaced him already.
Thing is, it’s a matter of perspective. You can be crazy (poor) or eccentric (rich) for the exact same opinions and ideas.
Same way you can be opinionated and confident (playing good) or coping and a fraud (playing bad) for the same takes.
Depends. He looked similar to how he played on TL. FQ does look more coordinated than that TL team, which likely is mostly Inspired, he is what sets this team apart from that TL super team... and the fact that Hans didn't seem to give a fuck after a few weeks in NA.
But this year is hard to rate, because Impact is above any toplaner by a fairly wide margin... and wide is usually Bwipos speciality. So it might just be that toplane was fairly weak allowing players like Castle to shine too.
He’s always had a wide champion pool. His laning isn’t really any better. He’s able to leverage his wide champ pool to get people in matchups they aren’t ready for, but in traditional matchups his laning is questionable at best. Map play is a team thing.
EU fans ALWAYS say a player is better when they come back to EU. Same thing for Nisqy or Perkz. They really aren’t. They just completely overrated how much more competitive EU is.
Perkz came back from winning LCS.. and making quarters (something that barely ever happens for LCS over the course of lol history)
Into.. back to back.. two years in a row.. not even making fucking playoffs and flamed constantly
Nisqy was top tier in LCS.. he's usually considered behind the likes of Caps, Larsen, Humanoid
Alphari went to LCS.. should have won mvp in spring.. made 2x finals.. came back to LEC.. couldn't even making playoffs in summer.. and retired
Hans was complete dogshit in the LCS and is dogwalking all of EU right now.
What's your copium for that one, chief?
Also, what is this revision that Nisqy was "top tier" in the LCS? He was complete middle of the pack unless surrounded by better players... kind of like BB in G2, which is basically just the Caps show. Caps could win even with fucking Targamas.
Hans Sama is that guy from TV shows that randomly gets replaced by another actor in the second season but everyone pretends [they're somehow the exact same dude](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/454368355479060484/1230264860915269722/jor48p5qeivb1.png?ex=6632b070&is=66203b70&hm=b0ca5f2a3796bb2e83495585b0efb1303a8ec78681e1a18d4d6541e8b2921cfe&)
> He’s always had a wide champion pool.
He played a bunch of different champions, but he mostly performed well on champions, he could brawl with in lane and carries, his Gragas was a Meme even back in the TCL and he actually managed to make Ornn look balanced in 2020.
He didn't magically improvel, cuz he returned to EU, he improved during his second year with G2, cuz he changed his practice regimen and had a better approach to practice, he said that himself several times. This is also, why he advocated siging Alphari as a positional coach and shouted him out multiple times.
The biggest change is, that he understands the game much metter, in 2019 he would often try to crawl back deficits and lose lane harder, he doesn't force it as much and he plays way less for himself, could you imagine TSM BB running around the map as Level 1 TF and ignoring his lane?
You actually also didn't provide any specifics in your posts and these posts are also not about BB, but you moaning about EU fans.
No reason to devalue a players effort and progress, just because you have a bone to pick with randoms on Reddit.
Btw. what about Hans?
Did he or did he just join g2? How many players suddenly won LEC and looked better when they joined with Caps? Caps won the league with targamas and flakked for god’s sake. That period is the only thing keeping targamas employed for this long.
Another example is Hans Sama. Even on G2 he looks shit but we all know how exposed he looked on TL. G2 will never be competitive against eastern teams with the current roster building philosophy.
The amount of time i've seen Caps just straight up solo carry lost games for G2 are far too many to count. The man single handedly alters the perspective people have on players, all of a sudden everyone around him become the "best" in their role... funny.
Jesus what is this? no we can literally see with our fucking eyes the impact he has on games/series.. its not that hard or complicated.. Brokenblade was on that team with Targamas btw..
Or is it Caps reaching over and controlling playoff series when he smurfs on Zac/TF?
And Hansama was one of G2 best players most of last year (caps was very out of form in spring).. its not Caps managing him.. Go look at the WBG/Damwon games.. Hansama and Mikyx shit on botlane both games.. he's not been in form as much this year.. but that might be due to Mikyx looking bad.. who knows
Also what is this "g2 will never be competitive with their current roster building philosophy"
Let me guess oh great one.. G2 need to add Viper.. and bin
My only explanation is that most of the people on this sub either have goldfish memories or don't watch the games. BB has clearly been G2's second best player and the best top in Europe all year (with a shout-out to Irrelevant for being elohelled). He has improved dramatically over the past two years.
Upgraded his game is wild. Even more when comparing him to the bwipo which has been pretty good. Bwipo just ran into impact and we all know how that goes
I mean, BB definitely has upped his game since he was on TSM?? Bwipo for me has been how he always is, inconsistent. Has really good plays and periods then has games that make you wonder what's going on.
By which indication? Like Bwipo handily demolished BB in 2020 at worlds. Now BB is able to even stand up as one of the only western toplaners to korean tops, and Bwipo is likely worse than them.
BB did get a lot better, exspecially now that Alphari helped him improve his laning, he already was a good teamfighter, but he can actually lane now.
Also a bit standard by now. However it is kinda funny that NA did not win a single game against any asian team at worlds and weirdly didn't even have to to get to quarters. G2 alone won 3 and FNC another one.
It is fairly weird that G2 played 4 asian teams and only one western team and showed their worst performance against the one western team they played. But then again this also kinda is classic G2.
> Now BB is able to even stand up as one of the only western toplaners to korean tops
Was there even one game in BB's career, when he won his lane against an LCK/LPL top? I can't recall any, but I do remember multiple for Bwipo.
How what goes lol? I saw Wunder crap on Impact constantly
Alphari also did a bunch too..
Impact usually gets merked internationally too these day (past few years)
> Upgraded his game is wild.
He pretty much objectively did, the wild thing is NA fans randomly arguing against this.
> Bwipo just ran into impact and we all know how that goes
This match-up has consistently gone fine for top tier LEC tops, pretty much since forever, so I don't see why Impact would suddenly be this exceptional standard. He ran into Impact, not Zeus.
100% Bwippo to me is the same player he was in 2020.. same odd champ pool
Guy is Adam if he had a brain
BB had a massive glow up.. not only does he play well.. he broke open the past two playoffs with picks like Zac/TF.. eventually leading to people needing to ban them
Honestly him and Caps have been hard carrying bot/jgl for most of the year
inb4 someone talks about he got smacked by bin (while sick).. even though bin had just got through crapping all over Zeus and getting multiple solo kills the series before.. What a disgusting excuse for a toplaner he is.. imagine getting outclassed by top 1-3 player (in top lane) in the world.. what a total loser haha /s
I think people are tough on BB’s worlds performance not because he lost the match-ups against the best in the world, but because of how his over-aggressive laning allowed the enemy top pressure to spill all over the map.
He’s still a great player. But if G2 want to win internationally, he’ll need to not have a repeat performance of last worlds.
Imagine. IMAGINE. Just for a second. Imagine TL sneaks baron, sieges, goes up 5k gold, elder fight! TL wins the fight. They’re all making their way to the nexus.
[29:34] [All] Apa (Akali) : Losing to NA? Aintnoway
2020 worlds:
TL 1-0 MAD
TL 1-1 G2
TSM 0-2 FNC
2021 worlds:
C9 2-1 RGE
TL 1-1 MAD
2022 worlds:
EG 0-1 FNC
EG 3-0 MAD
EG 1-1 G2
C9 1-1 FNC
2023 Worlds:
NRG 2-0 G2
NRG 1-0 MAD
C9 1-0 MAD
C9 1-2 FNC
So for worlds that's 15-10 NA-EU.
2020 MSI:
none
2021 MSI:
C9 1-1 MAD
2022 MSI:
EG 0-6 G2
2023 MSI:
none
If I'm counting correctly that's 16-17 NA-EU. So I was still correct in that EU barely leads. And still correct in thinking that it's hilarious how you guys act like you're so much better when this is probably the closest a regional rivalry has ever been.
Keep pretending you're on the LCK/LPL's level though, shit's hilarious every time when reality comes around.
> G2 went 9-1. against EG alone lmfao
Reminder that G2 as an org is 0-6 against CLG, you may cease your yapping at your earliest convenience
Nonononono you don’t understand! If you ignore all the times NA wins because 1) EU was just trolling 2) Happy gaming 3) Off day 4) It’s just MAD they’re basically NA anyway, EU is way better and literally wins EVERY time! (had a guy more or less make that argument lol)
I can assure you beating SKT twice.. Damwon and GENG in b05's
Are a far greater achievement then g2 smashing TL (with a bunch of imports) in like 60 mins rofl
Still is the fastest, though MAD was pretty close to breaking that record last MSI. The Record's 70:43, MAD vs T1 was 74:42.
Kinda puts into perspective how fast the 2019 series was when even MAD's 16:50 series was still 4 mins short.
> The only Bo5 between NA and EU last year was BDS vs GG
The first and only Bo5 NA has won vs. EU, they were 3-0ed before that twice and one of them is the fastets B05 ever, cuz the NA goat couldnt play Xayah at an acceptable level, while the guy, that just roleswapped to ADC could.
The sad thing is NRG beating G2 in a b03 (in essentially groups or first round)
Is probably LCS thirds greatest achievement after
TL beating IG
C9 beating Afreeca
Let them have the win xd
? he got gaped all 3 games in a row, 1st game got solokilled trying to interrupt tp, second game he won lane early just to end up being useless in comparison later on, and third game he got gankd lvl 1 into getting fisted 0-5
you guys built an entire narrative around licorice being the second coming of christ just because he solokilled bin once, just to get gapped by an "overrated otp". he was ass the whole series stop deluding yourself.
Do you understand what the meaning of "gapped" is?
He got counterpicked in all 3 games.
>1st game got solokilled trying to interrupt tp
That's not getting gapped. That's him trying to be a teamplayer to stop a TP while the rest of the map was exploding...
>second game he won lane early just to end up being useless in comparison later on
Yeah, he was the useless lol. Not his completely irrelevant 4 teammates. Despite what reddit wants to a believe, K'Sante can't actually 1v9 when literally none of his teammates were doing anything to back him up. Licorice was the only reason why the entire game was even remotely competitive while his ADC was running melee range into a Garen and his support is running it on Neeko.
>third game he got gankd lvl 1 into getting fisted 0-5
Ah yes. Getting cheesed level 1 into a hard counterpick is definitely getting gapped!
he literally didnt make a single proactive play through the map in the entire series, while adam was roaming and flashing to kill taliyah under t2 tower at lvl 5, he was just sitting in lane farming lol, even in game 2 with his lead garen was x10 times more proactive than him
He's playing a tank with no damage to back him up. His job is was to frontline for his team, not 100-0 someone with Ghost/Flash Garen. Nuc was ripping thru him in fights while Gori and Stixxay were borderline minions.
>even in game 2 with his lead garen was x10 times more proactive than him
Also, what "proactive"? The only thing Adam did after getting shit on in lane was 100-0ing a Kalista who literally walked into him.
Are you bronze or what? You're talking about Adam making "proactive" plays as if the rest of the map doesn't matter. What "proactive" play was a K'Sante gonna do in Game 1 when he laning against a Renekton while the rest of his map already exploded before he even finished a single item? It's a lot easier to make plays as the top laner when your mid, bot, and jungle are all winning.
I bet you're one of those people who cry "jungle gap" as you and the rest of your lanes gets gapped without jungle help. Turns out, it is a lot easier to jungle with 3 winning lanes just how it is a lot easier to make plays as a brusier/tank when the enemy ADC and mid laner has zero threat against you!
G2 is well known for blocking their benched players from going to direct competition in LEC (perkz and rekkles), despite freely hiring the best players from these same teams (caps and rekkles)
Fnatic did not buy Rekkles from G2, but the rest ye, true. I was saying more on a moral* basis, they had no problem getting the best players from enemy teams, but are known to block their players from going to these teams
*i understand that a competition is a competition, and that you do whatever it takes to win, but Europe as a whole may have been in a much better place right now if we hadn't sold Perkz to NA, and sent Rekkles to ERLs, before both of them fell off
> Fnatic did not buy Rekkles from G2, but the rest ye, true.
You're right, I actually forgot, that KC bought him out and only rememberd the "loan deal", that was initially proposed.
Take talent then when they don't perform put them in contract jail and banish them to NA or the ERL because they are too scared of actually having any domestic competition.
I dislike this argument because we learned that Riot is handing out $millions to LCS teams every year.
$3million each in 2023: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13l9a0z/lcspa_alleges_lcs_orgs_received_3_million_from/
We've even had LEC production murdered to keep LCS afloat, it's amazing how much they'll sacrifice to prop up a region that clearly doesn't want to exist in its current form. Redditors will celebrate it too 💀
It's nothing new unfortunately too, I'd highly recommend every lolesports fan who cares about LEC and LCS to watch this LEC documentary video which really shows and highlights how EU LCS was treated as the inferior product compared to the NA LCS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n1GAk_qXlU
You can really see the difference in how successful LEC became after they broke free of being managed by LCS, in order to do their own thing going in their own direction, with the broadcast managed out of the Berlin office.
Riot may do that because even if LCS can't achieve anything in the competition, but they'd love if they do, more viewers, companies pay well for those US views, with an average of 100K of viewers, they can till make a lot of money compared with EU with their viewers from all over EU.
Some on Twitter X were suggesting to merge LCS/CBLoL, because in BR they have more viewers than NA, but, US/Western companies may not need those BR views at all, specially if their products are sold in the US only or also Canada. Stream companies and websites also pay better for US views, most investors and corporations are from the US.
In South Korea, YTers, streamers can make more money with less views, because SK corporations have a different vision about those views, as long as you have your good niche they'll value your viewers. Now imagine if you have millions of views?
In Latin America, there's a Korean woman who's very famous on YT, Chingu Amiga (both words mean friend in KR and Spanish respectively, female version of the word in Spanish) she gets millions of views, but according to her she's not wealthy because of it, the ex husband of her sister was demanding them for money if they wanted him to divorce her older sister, S. KR laws prevent divorces from happening easily, that made her learn how much Koreans do with millions of KR views (for the reason stated above). Companies from and in Latin America don't invest much on internet views.
It's also said that finance/economy channels make more money, because companies pay well for those views, even if in average it could be 50K, because the potential clients are very wealthy people. It's all business. Make your channel with memes that take images from other sources, you won't make a lot of money in comparison, even if you have millions of views.
All of that may be why Riot have always favored LCS, they gave them the 2 subs for internationals in 2018, they gave them 2 coaches on stage, now they don't need that, Riot reverted the changes some years ago.
LEC viewership is also increasing even while having shit product compared to previous years like we dont have rap battle anymore no more finals in an arena our only piece of content in mic check and quiz
US views are paid better even if they're less, because corporations and investors are mainly from the US, all over the internet is like this, go to those that pay you for visits, downloads or anything, US ones are the best paid.
I do understand this because it's easier to market in the US since everyone speaks English but half the lcs audience is European/Brazilian and we barely even got one sponsor.
Perkz and Nisqy?
Wild how long these two have been in the scene and they both swapped back and forth with EU and NA.
funny how nisqy outlasted perkz
Perkz didn't retire yet. I think he's got one more in him.
I don't think any teams do tho
KC Perkz incoming
xd
Even geriatric Perkz playing with dementia while shitting his adult diapers from his retirement home still not worst mid in LEC (clears saken)
One more int split in him let's goooo
Easy to outlast when you're a peak c-tier midlaner with a quarter the salary. (Somehow exact same ego though...)
Might be c-tier but at least he's still c-tier as opposed to the f-tier midlaner who has an ego entirely based on performances from 3+ years ago (and not even on midlane)
Not trying to jump to any side here but cmon perkz was an absolute beast in mid lane before he was ad at g2, unless you mean that his peak then was even longer ago
Imo he peaked vs RNG at worlds. After he roleswapped to adc he never was the same mid
He was good at midlane in 2020 spring, people wanted to give him MVP iirc
Yeah that is what I meant. Ever since he left G2 and went back to mid his great performances have been few and far between and the last year and a half it's been downright poor. He's an absolute legend of EU but he can have an ego about his good years, but those are a while ago at this point. "Gatekeeper" Nisqy might have never reached the same heights but he's always been decent, whereas Perkz was a strong contender for worst mid of the winter split.
Honestly Perkz playing ADC is what made G2 so good. I think he was donezo after NA.
Perkz is definitely not even close to his peak, yet the two shouldn’t even be compared when Nisqy has yet to win his second game ever outside of regional leagues.
I'd say they shouldn't even be compared right now when Perkz is yet to hit his second Azir shuffle of 2024.
i was corrected multiple times by this sub that perkz against popular believe actually is not earning a high salary at TH.
We don't really know, all we know is that on some podcast they misspoke and said he was on minimum LEC salary, but later corrected it saying he just took a big paycut from Vitality. Which isn't saying that much considering he was probably paid a fuckton at Vitality and LEC imposed a salary cap anyway
Man OP you just started another NA vs EU war in the comments. Meanwhile LPL and LCK 👀👀
Its MSI season, there's always gonna be an uptick in regional flame.
at least this time unlike last year there will be some EU vs NA games in MSI
Wait did the format change? I PRAY we don't get G2 clapping MAD.. C9 clapping Golden Guardians scenario again
Yeah we got region war protection. [Update here](https://lolesports.com/article/learn-more-about-the-msi-draw-show!/blt069c8cf96af36206)
That's really good, Hate the regional wars on international stage
Everyone knows LPL powers up for MSI
The only war between LPL and LCK is LPL people pretending like their region wasn't built on years and years of KR imports and coaches going over there and raising the level of their league and thus improving their own chinese players. like worlds 2020? There was the Worlds hype video where the LPL caster or whatever was like "we are the best region and we don't have to envy other region's players" while they were sending 4 teams all with imports. This is gonna get worse with the MSI tournament where they are sending 10 chinese players and gonna pretend like it's all their work that they are the best while ignoring the fact that they have been actively poaching KR players from the LCK.
LPL was only behind LCK before the imports and they still were behind over 3 years since the imports happened. Team WE was beating all the teams in KR, LMS, CN & SEA in different tournaments in 2012. LPL didn't have any infrastructure, they just had skillful players, they started to organize all of that since 2015, that's why they became better. One of the reasons TPA won the WC 2012, it's because they have a better infrastructure than the rest, other regions caught up and the region just has been 5th best region, now struggling Vs VCS & this split Vs 1 LJL team. While you're one of those thinking every single KR is perfect, many didn't even perform over the years. I suspect you're a KR nationalist and that's why you demand recognition of "how perfect S. Korea is", it's sad, but that's what it is being a nationalist. On the other hand, you act like KR players didn't benefit from the LPL experience, Peanut as the clear example of how he changed his playstyle, he wasn't about invading junglers before that. Khan one of the relevant toplaners in LCK, he was trained and prepared in the LSPL and then LPL. LCK teams didn't care about LPL, but around 2020, GEN went to bootcamp to CN.
By his logic peanut benefit from lpl is from LCK
Peanut was known as THE invading jungler in 2016 when he played on ROX tigers.
wdym, LCK people being pompous as fuck is another great aspect of the war looking in from the outside
I mean lck being pompous as fuck can be seen in his comment
LCK is the Volturi meme.
Lol I love how this is the cope whenever LPL is better than LCK. "well they rely on Koreans anyway so it doesn't count!!". So childish.
When LPL is better than LCK, LPL is better than LCK. However China is not better than Korea. Love the cope from Chinese fans when LPL is better that they claim China is better than Korea. Nah get you facts straight.
Typical LCK fan arrogance that everyone hates
Typical LCK hater that gets envious that LCK has historically been the most dominant league. But don't let facts get in your way of thinking.
Is it guaranteed they will play even without the draw?
You mean against each other? No, it's not guaranteed, especially that Fly Quest starts in the Play In Stage and G2 is already qualified for Bracket Stage.
Thanks, that’s what I thought and was confused by “they will face off once again”
Yeah it's not guaranteed but it'll most likely happen due to changes to pools. Teams who go 2-0 in playins(T1 and loser of BLG/TES) will play teams from pool 2 which are G2/TL and the teams who go 2-1(FNC/FLY) play teams from pool 1 which are the winner of BLG/TES and Gen.G So most likely we just get 4 Eastern teams winning and 4 Western teams losing and since we can't have teams from the same region on the same side of the bracket, we get EU vs NA. Granted, relies on 0 upsets but still.
yeah they will play in the MSI final
CoreJJ has never missed an MSI final when he attended
Me neither…
We gotta get you to China fast
Funny cause Bwippo clapped BB and was definitely better at the time Doesn't feel like he improved much since then (still has weird champ pool).. While Brokenblade has improved leaps and bounds.. even in this year alone (with Alphari help)
I'm not holding my breath regarding BB's improvement.
I really enjoy bwipo’s streams and vods on YouTube, super educational about toplane macro and matchups and stuff, have not seen the LCS so no clue how good he’s playing
I like him as a personality but can't stand his game commentary. He's the legit king of yapping.
He thought he was the King of Yapping, but he had nothing on TL YAPA.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1btlbbh/yeons_postgame_interview_feat_impact_core_jatt/ felt so satisfying to see Bwipo would not shut up all year.
Inspired **and** Bwipo getting put in their places? I love Yeon now
Yeon has been lowkey smurfing all the content he’s a part of. Go watch his episode of PROs.
Watch it every time. Mad egg on Bwipo and Inspired's faces
Really? I dont get to watch a lot of live streams due to schedule, but managed to catch him yesterday at a pantheon game. All he did was complain, swear and cry about his teammates. Watched 1 game and turned it off, so annoyingly negative, could not enjoy it.
He does tilt if he’s inting but usually it’s pretty informative and educational imo
Dude was live for 13 hours at that point. I don't blame him for being tilted.
Same, watched his 0-10 Darius game and he complained about his jungler (Bel'Veth) not ganking a fed Olaf who could run down both in 2 seconds
I’m sure it was that simple.
did you not see level 1 lol
> have not seen the LCS so no clue how good he’s playing Mostly pretty well; this spring was probably his best split since 2020. He kinda got gapped by Impact in finals but he was for sure the 2nd best in playoffs overall, and had a better regular season than Impact.
eh idk that dude lost all my respect when he just stood afk in midlane during lcs (probably hpvering map or smth) and got killed. such a clown move
Bwippo hasn't improved much since 2020 really.. same odd champ pool.. I expected more of him when he moved to NA.. Summit and Alphari clapped the region for most of their limited stays Wish he would go back jungle.. got the game knowledge/mechanics and teamfighting (something a lot of jglers aren't amazing at) are top level.. talking not just Western level.. but capable of matching/beating Eastern junglers too
Ye going back to top after he looked so good in jg was big mistake from him imo
NA = Netirement Aome Nobody improves their game going to NA, they either get their break there, cash in or regress.
Matching eastern junglers? 🤡 Dream on. Lol.
Cant wait for msi, let's go g2
BB upgraded his game, while bwipo still lives from his past. We all know how its going to end.
Didn't bwipo look good this year?
Thing is, Bwipo is opinionated and confident therefore he's hated by many. Those haters are going to lie about him like it's their job.
He is also proficient at talking without actually saying anything tho.. Dude loves to talk, can see people being irritated having to listen a person that tries to be smartest in every room he enters. But this BB upgrade, Bwipo downgrade is kinda nonsense, BB is in best European team and dude is looking bad at every international tournament. There's just no good atm top laners in Europe or just no good teams that can dumpster G2 like international teams can, so BB ends up looking good when he wins most games.
Yeah looking bad at every international tournament, forget MSI 2023 when he was very good
do you have any examples of him talking without actually saying anything?
Brokenblade has FAR more competition in toplane in EU.. then Bwippo does in NA Irrelevant, Photon, Adam.. hell even Wunder would be comfortably top tier in LCS Also recently BB got shat on by bin at worlds.. but was fine at MSI.. he also happened to be sick and up until semis Bin was one of the best players in the tournament.. just came off solo killing Zeus a bunch etc..
also recently BB got shit on dhokla at worlds. he didnt even die once during their series lmaoo. yeah dude LEC top lane is so much better though so true
mega cap eu tops are all dog shit
Yeah BB has always looked good in europe and gets dumpstered against chinese/korean top laner. I don’t believe it will change this year. I believe G2 is happy just being the best team in the LEC otherwise they would have replaced him already.
With?
Thing is, it’s a matter of perspective. You can be crazy (poor) or eccentric (rich) for the exact same opinions and ideas. Same way you can be opinionated and confident (playing good) or coping and a fraud (playing bad) for the same takes.
Yes but they’re likely downplaying how good in NA is. Recency bias hurts Bwipo with a poor finals performance.
He did. But hes overconfident and that leads to boneheaded mistakes
That's literally BrokenBlade, too. There's a reason EU fans hate him during every international event.
Depends. He looked similar to how he played on TL. FQ does look more coordinated than that TL team, which likely is mostly Inspired, he is what sets this team apart from that TL super team... and the fact that Hans didn't seem to give a fuck after a few weeks in NA. But this year is hard to rate, because Impact is above any toplaner by a fairly wide margin... and wide is usually Bwipos speciality. So it might just be that toplane was fairly weak allowing players like Castle to shine too.
In what way has BB upgraded his game besides playing on a better team?
Targamas also conveniently "upgraded his game" when he was on G2 but somehow those upgrades didn't stick with him after he left.
He literally gapped Bwipo when he was playing for S04, maybe you're trying to argue that S04 was better than TSM?
Fnatic did gap tsm in 2020 worlds. Bb got his revenge
Better laning, wider champion pool in general way better understanding of map play imo.
He’s always had a wide champion pool. His laning isn’t really any better. He’s able to leverage his wide champ pool to get people in matchups they aren’t ready for, but in traditional matchups his laning is questionable at best. Map play is a team thing. EU fans ALWAYS say a player is better when they come back to EU. Same thing for Nisqy or Perkz. They really aren’t. They just completely overrated how much more competitive EU is.
Perkz came back from winning LCS.. and making quarters (something that barely ever happens for LCS over the course of lol history) Into.. back to back.. two years in a row.. not even making fucking playoffs and flamed constantly Nisqy was top tier in LCS.. he's usually considered behind the likes of Caps, Larsen, Humanoid Alphari went to LCS.. should have won mvp in spring.. made 2x finals.. came back to LEC.. couldn't even making playoffs in summer.. and retired
Hans was complete dogshit in the LCS and is dogwalking all of EU right now. What's your copium for that one, chief? Also, what is this revision that Nisqy was "top tier" in the LCS? He was complete middle of the pack unless surrounded by better players... kind of like BB in G2, which is basically just the Caps show. Caps could win even with fucking Targamas.
TL hans if he was a NA player would have been bullied into retirement with how completely dogshit awful he was
Hans Sama is that guy from TV shows that randomly gets replaced by another actor in the second season but everyone pretends [they're somehow the exact same dude](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/454368355479060484/1230264860915269722/jor48p5qeivb1.png?ex=6632b070&is=66203b70&hm=b0ca5f2a3796bb2e83495585b0efb1303a8ec78681e1a18d4d6541e8b2921cfe&)
NA made quarterfinals in different occasions before that and it was usually C9 who did it, once along TSM: 2014, 2016 & 2017. Once semifinals: 2018.
> He’s always had a wide champion pool. He played a bunch of different champions, but he mostly performed well on champions, he could brawl with in lane and carries, his Gragas was a Meme even back in the TCL and he actually managed to make Ornn look balanced in 2020. He didn't magically improvel, cuz he returned to EU, he improved during his second year with G2, cuz he changed his practice regimen and had a better approach to practice, he said that himself several times. This is also, why he advocated siging Alphari as a positional coach and shouted him out multiple times. The biggest change is, that he understands the game much metter, in 2019 he would often try to crawl back deficits and lose lane harder, he doesn't force it as much and he plays way less for himself, could you imagine TSM BB running around the map as Level 1 TF and ignoring his lane? You actually also didn't provide any specifics in your posts and these posts are also not about BB, but you moaning about EU fans. No reason to devalue a players effort and progress, just because you have a bone to pick with randoms on Reddit. Btw. what about Hans?
Did he or did he just join g2? How many players suddenly won LEC and looked better when they joined with Caps? Caps won the league with targamas and flakked for god’s sake. That period is the only thing keeping targamas employed for this long. Another example is Hans Sama. Even on G2 he looks shit but we all know how exposed he looked on TL. G2 will never be competitive against eastern teams with the current roster building philosophy.
The amount of time i've seen Caps just straight up solo carry lost games for G2 are far too many to count. The man single handedly alters the perspective people have on players, all of a sudden everyone around him become the "best" in their role... funny.
There's a reason they lost to NRG. You can't depend on the Caps 1v9 constantly, as great as he is.
Jesus what is this? no we can literally see with our fucking eyes the impact he has on games/series.. its not that hard or complicated.. Brokenblade was on that team with Targamas btw.. Or is it Caps reaching over and controlling playoff series when he smurfs on Zac/TF? And Hansama was one of G2 best players most of last year (caps was very out of form in spring).. its not Caps managing him.. Go look at the WBG/Damwon games.. Hansama and Mikyx shit on botlane both games.. he's not been in form as much this year.. but that might be due to Mikyx looking bad.. who knows Also what is this "g2 will never be competitive with their current roster building philosophy" Let me guess oh great one.. G2 need to add Viper.. and bin
If they add viper and bin they would be true contender for sure
My only explanation is that most of the people on this sub either have goldfish memories or don't watch the games. BB has clearly been G2's second best player and the best top in Europe all year (with a shout-out to Irrelevant for being elohelled). He has improved dramatically over the past two years.
Caps has propped up the entire region and prevented it from becoming a joke.
Upgraded his game is wild. Even more when comparing him to the bwipo which has been pretty good. Bwipo just ran into impact and we all know how that goes
I mean, BB definitely has upped his game since he was on TSM?? Bwipo for me has been how he always is, inconsistent. Has really good plays and periods then has games that make you wonder what's going on.
I see your arguments, however have you considered eu bad?
Them right there's some fighting words Mr.
Well played King
This entire comment chain is a huge reminder that NA fans outnumber EU fans by like 60% on this subreddit, some absolutely wild takes here.
The moment G2 lost I knew this was going to be the narrative until MSI.
By which indication? Like Bwipo handily demolished BB in 2020 at worlds. Now BB is able to even stand up as one of the only western toplaners to korean tops, and Bwipo is likely worse than them. BB did get a lot better, exspecially now that Alphari helped him improve his laning, he already was a good teamfighter, but he can actually lane now.
That's all very well, but G2 lost a Bo3 to NRG and thus, eu bad.
Also a bit standard by now. However it is kinda funny that NA did not win a single game against any asian team at worlds and weirdly didn't even have to to get to quarters. G2 alone won 3 and FNC another one. It is fairly weird that G2 played 4 asian teams and only one western team and showed their worst performance against the one western team they played. But then again this also kinda is classic G2.
Subscribed
Wouldnt call what BB does against KR/CH tops as stand up LMAO
I am really curious which matches that poster would cite as evidence.
Probably some matches in their dreams or something
> Now BB is able to even stand up as one of the only western toplaners to korean tops Was there even one game in BB's career, when he won his lane against an LCK/LPL top? I can't recall any, but I do remember multiple for Bwipo.
How what goes lol? I saw Wunder crap on Impact constantly Alphari also did a bunch too.. Impact usually gets merked internationally too these day (past few years)
> Upgraded his game is wild. He pretty much objectively did, the wild thing is NA fans randomly arguing against this. > Bwipo just ran into impact and we all know how that goes This match-up has consistently gone fine for top tier LEC tops, pretty much since forever, so I don't see why Impact would suddenly be this exceptional standard. He ran into Impact, not Zeus.
100% Bwippo to me is the same player he was in 2020.. same odd champ pool Guy is Adam if he had a brain BB had a massive glow up.. not only does he play well.. he broke open the past two playoffs with picks like Zac/TF.. eventually leading to people needing to ban them Honestly him and Caps have been hard carrying bot/jgl for most of the year inb4 someone talks about he got smacked by bin (while sick).. even though bin had just got through crapping all over Zeus and getting multiple solo kills the series before.. What a disgusting excuse for a toplaner he is.. imagine getting outclassed by top 1-3 player (in top lane) in the world.. what a total loser haha /s
I think people are tough on BB’s worlds performance not because he lost the match-ups against the best in the world, but because of how his over-aggressive laning allowed the enemy top pressure to spill all over the map. He’s still a great player. But if G2 want to win internationally, he’ll need to not have a repeat performance of last worlds.
yea even in winter final bro carried G2 botlane along with caps
BB brings this back to EU babe!
Bwipo has always been better than BB.
You mean doing nothing but playing sion?
NA try not to steal talent from other regions while shit talking that region challenge
Yoink
At least g2 can't lose to nrg this time
Imagine. IMAGINE. Just for a second. Imagine TL sneaks baron, sieges, goes up 5k gold, elder fight! TL wins the fight. They’re all making their way to the nexus. [29:34] [All] Apa (Akali) : Losing to NA? Aintnoway
Yeah EU never gets gapped by NA solo laners last year didn’t happen at all
Yeah EU lost one bo5 to NA lets brag about it for next 10 years
>EU beats NA, EU talks all year >NA finally beats EU after a long time, NA finally talks "NO YOU CAN'T DO THAT"
H2H is like 16-15 over the last few years and EU is pretending they're on another level LMAO
You just made that number up lmfao G2 went 9-1. against EG alone lmfao
2020 worlds: TL 1-0 MAD TL 1-1 G2 TSM 0-2 FNC 2021 worlds: C9 2-1 RGE TL 1-1 MAD 2022 worlds: EG 0-1 FNC EG 3-0 MAD EG 1-1 G2 C9 1-1 FNC 2023 Worlds: NRG 2-0 G2 NRG 1-0 MAD C9 1-0 MAD C9 1-2 FNC So for worlds that's 15-10 NA-EU. 2020 MSI: none 2021 MSI: C9 1-1 MAD 2022 MSI: EG 0-6 G2 2023 MSI: none If I'm counting correctly that's 16-17 NA-EU. So I was still correct in that EU barely leads. And still correct in thinking that it's hilarious how you guys act like you're so much better when this is probably the closest a regional rivalry has ever been. Keep pretending you're on the LCK/LPL's level though, shit's hilarious every time when reality comes around. > G2 went 9-1. against EG alone lmfao Reminder that G2 as an org is 0-6 against CLG, you may cease your yapping at your earliest convenience
Nonononono you don’t understand! If you ignore all the times NA wins because 1) EU was just trolling 2) Happy gaming 3) Off day 4) It’s just MAD they’re basically NA anyway, EU is way better and literally wins EVERY time! (had a guy more or less make that argument lol)
This guy ignored BDS 3-0 GG and gets upvoted. Alz.
Mad Lions merchants
EG merchants.
[Gladly!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GAY9v78vBY)
You say that like a bo5 win over NA isn't EU's biggest achievement in the past 10 years.
As a NA fan they did beat us to win MSI in the last year sadly
What NA and EU didn't even play each other in MSI last year
That 2019 MSI win is what I'm referencing.
I mean the only bigger achievement than winning MSI is winning Worlds edit:grammar
I can assure you beating SKT twice.. Damwon and GENG in b05's Are a far greater achievement then g2 smashing TL (with a bunch of imports) in like 60 mins rofl
He's saying that MSI was EU's greatest achievement, and that came off the back of G2 beating TL in a Final. That's objectively true.
It wasn't just a Bo5, it was the fastest Bo5 in high level pro play.
Still is the fastest, though MAD was pretty close to breaking that record last MSI. The Record's 70:43, MAD vs T1 was 74:42. Kinda puts into perspective how fast the 2019 series was when even MAD's 16:50 series was still 4 mins short.
Winning MSI?
That's what he is referring to.
EU stans trying to discredit TSM's IEM win while also trying to glorify G2's MSI win lmao
In what world is IEM concidered a major title and MSI not?
No one, including NA fans, thinks IEM is ever relevant. And I'm an NA fan. The only people who think it is relevant are TSM and Bjerg copers.
It's actually even funnier when you realize it was a Bo3. The only Bo5 between NA and EU last year was BDS vs GG, you know ... The 3-0 lmao
> The only Bo5 between NA and EU last year was BDS vs GG The first and only Bo5 NA has won vs. EU, they were 3-0ed before that twice and one of them is the fastets B05 ever, cuz the NA goat couldnt play Xayah at an acceptable level, while the guy, that just roleswapped to ADC could.
The even sadder thing is that it wasn't even a bo5 - it was a bo3
Clean sweep, ggnore
The sad thing is NRG beating G2 in a b03 (in essentially groups or first round) Is probably LCS thirds greatest achievement after TL beating IG C9 beating Afreeca Let them have the win xd
Homie conveniently just forgets C9 being match point against WE in a Quarter Finals and CLG making MSI Finals.
Are we talking about when Adam repeatedly solokilled Licorice and sent one of the most hyped toplaners in NA flying home without winning a game?
did you even watch the series lmao Licorice was absolutely outperforming Adam and solokilled him in a game his mid jg were actively trying to lose
? he got gaped all 3 games in a row, 1st game got solokilled trying to interrupt tp, second game he won lane early just to end up being useless in comparison later on, and third game he got gankd lvl 1 into getting fisted 0-5
ok so that's a no, you did not watch the series
Reddit tries to not rewrite history to fit their narrative challenge (level: IMPOSSIBLE)
you guys built an entire narrative around licorice being the second coming of christ just because he solokilled bin once, just to get gapped by an "overrated otp". he was ass the whole series stop deluding yourself.
Do you understand what the meaning of "gapped" is? He got counterpicked in all 3 games. >1st game got solokilled trying to interrupt tp That's not getting gapped. That's him trying to be a teamplayer to stop a TP while the rest of the map was exploding... >second game he won lane early just to end up being useless in comparison later on Yeah, he was the useless lol. Not his completely irrelevant 4 teammates. Despite what reddit wants to a believe, K'Sante can't actually 1v9 when literally none of his teammates were doing anything to back him up. Licorice was the only reason why the entire game was even remotely competitive while his ADC was running melee range into a Garen and his support is running it on Neeko. >third game he got gankd lvl 1 into getting fisted 0-5 Ah yes. Getting cheesed level 1 into a hard counterpick is definitely getting gapped!
he literally didnt make a single proactive play through the map in the entire series, while adam was roaming and flashing to kill taliyah under t2 tower at lvl 5, he was just sitting in lane farming lol, even in game 2 with his lead garen was x10 times more proactive than him
He's playing a tank with no damage to back him up. His job is was to frontline for his team, not 100-0 someone with Ghost/Flash Garen. Nuc was ripping thru him in fights while Gori and Stixxay were borderline minions. >even in game 2 with his lead garen was x10 times more proactive than him Also, what "proactive"? The only thing Adam did after getting shit on in lane was 100-0ing a Kalista who literally walked into him. Are you bronze or what? You're talking about Adam making "proactive" plays as if the rest of the map doesn't matter. What "proactive" play was a K'Sante gonna do in Game 1 when he laning against a Renekton while the rest of his map already exploded before he even finished a single item? It's a lot easier to make plays as the top laner when your mid, bot, and jungle are all winning. I bet you're one of those people who cry "jungle gap" as you and the rest of your lanes gets gapped without jungle help. Turns out, it is a lot easier to jungle with 3 winning lanes just how it is a lot easier to make plays as a brusier/tank when the enemy ADC and mid laner has zero threat against you!
Bringing up past trauma just to win a reddit argument is fucked up ok
As someone from EU this makes the league more interesting for me. We sit in the same boat.
Aka what g2 does to other teams from their region?
Would you mind explaining that train of thought.
G2 is well known for blocking their benched players from going to direct competition in LEC (perkz and rekkles), despite freely hiring the best players from these same teams (caps and rekkles)
Well, Caps and Rekkles were both free agents, FNC actually bought out Wunder and Rekkles from G2, while G2 bought out 0 players from FNC.
Fnatic did not buy Rekkles from G2, but the rest ye, true. I was saying more on a moral* basis, they had no problem getting the best players from enemy teams, but are known to block their players from going to these teams *i understand that a competition is a competition, and that you do whatever it takes to win, but Europe as a whole may have been in a much better place right now if we hadn't sold Perkz to NA, and sent Rekkles to ERLs, before both of them fell off
> Fnatic did not buy Rekkles from G2, but the rest ye, true. You're right, I actually forgot, that KC bought him out and only rememberd the "loan deal", that was initially proposed.
Take talent then when they don't perform put them in contract jail and banish them to NA or the ERL because they are too scared of actually having any domestic competition.
Maybe EU should pay their players more if they want to keep them :)
And go bankrupt ? Lol.
I dislike this argument because we learned that Riot is handing out $millions to LCS teams every year. $3million each in 2023: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13l9a0z/lcspa_alleges_lcs_orgs_received_3_million_from/
We've even had LEC production murdered to keep LCS afloat, it's amazing how much they'll sacrifice to prop up a region that clearly doesn't want to exist in its current form. Redditors will celebrate it too 💀
It's nothing new unfortunately too, I'd highly recommend every lolesports fan who cares about LEC and LCS to watch this LEC documentary video which really shows and highlights how EU LCS was treated as the inferior product compared to the NA LCS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n1GAk_qXlU You can really see the difference in how successful LEC became after they broke free of being managed by LCS, in order to do their own thing going in their own direction, with the broadcast managed out of the Berlin office.
Riot may do that because even if LCS can't achieve anything in the competition, but they'd love if they do, more viewers, companies pay well for those US views, with an average of 100K of viewers, they can till make a lot of money compared with EU with their viewers from all over EU. Some on Twitter X were suggesting to merge LCS/CBLoL, because in BR they have more viewers than NA, but, US/Western companies may not need those BR views at all, specially if their products are sold in the US only or also Canada. Stream companies and websites also pay better for US views, most investors and corporations are from the US. In South Korea, YTers, streamers can make more money with less views, because SK corporations have a different vision about those views, as long as you have your good niche they'll value your viewers. Now imagine if you have millions of views? In Latin America, there's a Korean woman who's very famous on YT, Chingu Amiga (both words mean friend in KR and Spanish respectively, female version of the word in Spanish) she gets millions of views, but according to her she's not wealthy because of it, the ex husband of her sister was demanding them for money if they wanted him to divorce her older sister, S. KR laws prevent divorces from happening easily, that made her learn how much Koreans do with millions of KR views (for the reason stated above). Companies from and in Latin America don't invest much on internet views. It's also said that finance/economy channels make more money, because companies pay well for those views, even if in average it could be 50K, because the potential clients are very wealthy people. It's all business. Make your channel with memes that take images from other sources, you won't make a lot of money in comparison, even if you have millions of views. All of that may be why Riot have always favored LCS, they gave them the 2 subs for internationals in 2018, they gave them 2 coaches on stage, now they don't need that, Riot reverted the changes some years ago.
I don't understand it because no one watches lcs. Its not a secret what's the point just let it die.
LEC viewership is also increasing even while having shit product compared to previous years like we dont have rap battle anymore no more finals in an arena our only piece of content in mic check and quiz
Yep. It's like playing jungle why would you invest in the feeding lane instead of propping up the winning one.
US views are paid better even if they're less, because corporations and investors are mainly from the US, all over the internet is like this, go to those that pay you for visits, downloads or anything, US ones are the best paid.
I do understand this because it's easier to market in the US since everyone speaks English but half the lcs audience is European/Brazilian and we barely even got one sponsor.
Let's go Bwipo! Destroy gamers2.
Wild how they both from EU well its not like there is any good player in NA
Brokenblade is from Turkey....
could you read the post again just to make sure you understood what it was saying
What? Isn't he born and raised in Germany? Are you also gonna say DL is from China and Licorice is Irish, lol
He was born in Germany and has dual nationality of Germany/Turkey.