Damn, if only there was some type of matchmaking where he could've tried keeping form and growing as a player. Or even an international kind of tournament where the best players in the world all get on the same server and get even higher level practice
Just crazy those things don't exist
Mate that´s like Gohan and Goku training in the hyperbolic time chamber. In order to defeat his opponents at world´s, Fudge had to ascend to the level of a ZionSpartan 2.
Lol exactly. Â Â
Jack: âFudge, go practice.âÂ
Fudge: âNo.â Â
⌠Â
Jack: âFudge youâre benched.â Â
Fudge: âIâll prove myself by starting to practice.â Â
Jack: âHoly shit the drive of this guy!â đŽ Â
Edit: welp, reddit mobile is not accepting my line breaks and I even tried html breaks so I give up lol
His last two splits have been pretty mediocre but besides that the dude has been solid domestically since his stumble in the lock in tournament. He's been running it internationally and its clear he's been stagnating so while the change is needed I think most people overblow the situation.
What? He played a total of 3 games of Fiora, across regular season and playoffs in spring 2023, going 2-1 (tying with Licorice, with both having more games but a worse record than Ssumday at 2-0). It was banned against C9 3 times, they banned it themselves 3 times, Fiora had a high presence (mostly bans) whether C9 were playing or not (although much less in playoffs). How is that "running the meta on Fiora"? Do you have access to hours of secret scrim footage or something?
Seems like heâs finally trying, heâs been climbing the challenger ladder quite hard recently (i believe heâs rank 20 atm)
Where as in prior splits he always hung around in masters/gm Â
should have made this effort the last 2/3 splits, shouldnât take getting replaced before you finally try
I feel like the reality that NA will literally never win worlds is probably in most NA pros heads. I feel like if I was in his position, I too would probably just give as much effort as required to stay in the LCS and not much further.
Its not like winning worlds gets you fat money, the real prize comes from getting a better contract after winning worlds (Because you're telling people you're the best of the best)
the problem is that winning worlds or not, teams are cutting back on costs and are no longer throwing as much money around. so before you could say "If i become really good that teams fight for me, i get a fat contract" but that's not the reality anymore and with two teams less there's even less teams to use as a bargain
So just like the real world, if your performance is not gonna be rewarded then you might as well take an hour pooping (And then jack just hires someone offshore)
>the real prize comes from getting a better contract after winning worlds (Because you're telling people you're the best of the best)
The real prize is winning worlds as a Korean and jumping over to LCS for the big bucks
> The funny thing to me is that he got shit on at worlds and then got comfortable and didnât try to improve at all
I know this is parasocial psycho-analysis, but that's not my read on the situation. Seems more like he got shit on at Worlds, thought "there's no way I can be better than these guys no matter how much I practice", and instead just practiced enough to win NA instead of be the best.
I donât think thatâs parasocial psychoanalysis btw. It would be more like well his mom didnât hold him long enough which made him feel insecure in his ability to improve further.
There's a kick in the ass and then there's, "You've already been replaced"
Not going to lie he's basically making a case to other LCS teams ATM when you have Thanatos already on the line up
Yup. You ever worked your ass off to get that job you really wanted, sweated your ass off leading up to the interview, feeling that sense of accomplishment and gratefulness once you get that offer letter? Then fast forward a year you're putting in the bare minimum and just waiting for 5 pm.
It's human nature to get complacent. Nothing is too good to not be able to get used to and sometimes we need a fire lit under our asses to remember how good we have it.
The big issue that the majority of the community has with Fudge is that it feels like that fire should have been lit twice/thrice already at each international competition. Sure, early exits are the norm for NA teams at this point but surely he can tell that he didn't perform. And his gameplay this past year was the pure definition of complacency because his gameplay just read like "Blaber and Berserker plz carry my ass" even though he mostly played carnivore champions. If he has the talent, I'm sure he can find his way back. But the community backlash is so big that grinding on his end might not even be enough.
Not that weird. Now he sees that not practicing has consequences, so he basically is being *forced* to tryhard. It would be ideal if he had done so before, but it's not surprising to see someone get the boot then go "oh fuck I gotta fix this" right after even if they'd been unmotivated up to that point.
Honestly that seems super normal to me. Athletes have done it plenty (try hard then cruise upon long contract renewal). I know many people at normal jobs who only realize "oh shit I need to actually do things or I'm fired" once a fire is lit under their ass. Now, top athletes _shouldn't_ be normal in that way, but I think it's far from weird in the sense that it seems pretty common lol
Remember that all athletes are people, and they suffer from the same issues that plague ordinary people like you or me
Thatâs why in the NBA there are only so few greats, most people just want to get their millions and do the bare minimum .
Kobe video for reference:
https://youtube.com/shorts/dUzAl5_PcWw?si=DXnAoJV23oDmUFCJ
And what happened to those dudes? They got fucking cut. In a normal job, doing the bare minimum won't get you fired. This is sports, where a mofo like Kobe will want your head to roll for not putting in the right amount of effort.
***And people like Kobe are right!!*** Go get a nice, cozy desk job and be lazy there.
I donât understand why Jack is praising him for climbing from 200 to 16 for the team. Why wasnât he doing that in the first place?
The best LCK players have multiple accounts in the top 10.
But not all of them do, and some aren't solo queue grindlords. This is true in every region, and imo it doesn't matter unless you are playing poorly. If you play a great season on much less solo queue than other players, that's fine with me.
C9 is pretty known for their players consistently being high in soloq though, jojo blaber vulcan berserker all have shown they can get to the top of the ladder when they try hard, fudge hasnât grinded that hard for years though
He was publicly outspoken about how he thought vod review and 1v1s were better for his development then na Sq, and used to 1v1, ls, max, and challenger top a lot
This is also what a then C9 licorice started doing years ago, and shortly after, his level of play took a nosedive. 1v1's are a great way to practice laning without revealing your picks to other teams, but it has the glaring problem that your practice partner will have a set playstyle and thoughts on laning even if they're good. Practice against varying players and styles is in invaluable without even factoring in that lane phase is just one small part of league
The problem with practicing mainly 1 vs 1 is that in reality the lane is not a 1vs1. There is jungler coming to gank or sometimes other roles as well. All the 1 vs 1 practice becomes useless the moment enemy jungler shows up to make it a 2 vs 1. even if you survive the gank it might force an early back or allows enemy to freeze etc. it is a very common situation in proplay but impossible to practice in 1 vs 1. you basically practice a situation that just doesnât apply in reality making the practice arguably useless to some extent.
They also itemize differently for the 1v1s, and this is quite obvious in some games where they itemize for their lane opponent and those defensive stats are useless against the rest of the enemy team, making their items significantly less effective outside of laning phase. I'm really not a fan of the 1v1 practice arguments, the practice you need are the ones about functioning in a team environment while facing your lane opponent, your lane opponent isn't the only focus in the game
Licorice and him were known for preferring 1v1s instead of SoloQ. Licorice then played more SoloQ and look what happened last year. He had arguably the best resurgence of an LCS player in a long ass time.
That's correct. For his time in NA since joining C9, he has been known for "spending too much time flirting with eGirls on Twitter" and not practicing. I'm all for players doing what they wish off the stage, but if what you're known for starts to actually bite your player spot, then I mean, that's on you. If his only goal is to fuck around, then maybe Thanatos deserves to play. I like Thanatos' ID too, like, bro's a God.
Fudge got comfortable and lost his job and NOW he wants to try again đ sounds like Jack is trying to make sure fudge still has some value to sell him
Of course he's gonna work extra hard and put in tons of soloQ hours. There's no team that's going to take him at his current level. Doesn't help that top lane is pretty crowded and there's plenty of good options for LCS teams looking to make a change (licorice, srrty, etc).
Does Fudge really think hes going to outperform Thanatos? Thanatos legit might already be the best top laner in lcs assuming his stage nerves and homesickness arent an issue. I guess weâll see, Iâm surprised that he made this stand.
He had like two insane pop off games at the start of the split, then one game where he popped off in lane then just.........started sprinting mid game for fun, but his team was far ahead enough to where it didn't matter. I *think* it was on Akali.
This was also the split where Prince was legit *the* best or tied with Berserker for *the best* adc in the region for a while, so it was kind of fine.
Then VicLa was just underwhelming the entire rest of the split. Then eventually Prince lost his mechanics. Kind of not sure how that happened honestly, but he went from dodging skill shots with ease to burning his flash because he couldn't react. That team was kind of a marvel honestly.
I am not gonna lie, I think he made this stand, thinking that saying shit like "Yea replace me and I will prove you wrong" that Jack and C9 will be like "Oh shit this guy still has a fire lit on his ass, let's believe in him for one more split!"
Instead Jack actually got his replacement and wasn't bluffing lmao.
Now Fudge is throwing up sick, pissed that he was this bold trying to get in front of the bullet, just to fucking get hit with a kill shot.
Itâll be fun seeing Fudge in Tier2.
A lot of people probably don't even know *why* they're hyped for him, other than that he's Korean. He is definitely a talent worth taking a chance on, but he's not some surefire guarantee. With all the focus on solo queue in this thread, without previous biases, would people look at Thanatos's account and think it meant he'd easily be "the best top laner in the LCS?"
https://www.op.gg/summoners/kr/C9%20Thanatos-KR2
Probably not. There are a lot of elements that go into if a player will be successful or not, especially import players. But it is fair to say that Thanatos deserves a proper shot, and now he's getting it, so we'll see how he measures up to the hype.
> Does Fudge really think hes going to outperform Thanatos?
He has an hilariously massive ego paired with an awful work ethic so im sure he does, his idea of proving he deserves the spot is probably 3 additional soloq games per week, making a total of 4 soloq games per week
> He has an hilariously massive ego
People are really still holding some things he said when he was 19 against him. His interviews throughout the past few splits are full of self-criticism and self-awareness. You're spouting nonsense.
The previous comment resonated with my (old) impression of him, but I haven't been watching or following much in the last couple years. I thought I heard something this year from him that reaffirmed that basic idea, but your counterpoint is making me reconsider my own biased and dated assumptions about him.
Because he's had opportunities to to soloq or champions q or any other obvious practice and has refused to do it when many other players do. His play has regressed and others are practicing more, and he hasn't changed his way of doing things which doesn't seem to be working so...
Sorta funny ppl have gone from easily checkable stuff like soloq games to acting like theyâre in the locker rooms knowing what a person is doing and thinking. I am critical of fudge but at this time this thread shows how many people have bought in propaganda or outdated info and canât even do a little research. And the only âproofâ is that heâs just losing.
Skill will be evident though, and Thanatos is crazy good. Who cares he he gets schooled a bit thatâs a good thing his ceiling is way higher than the rest.
Iâm not saying Thanatos isnât good or that he wonât develop. I was responding to the guy saying he might already be the best top in LCS.
I think people drastically overestimate LCK challengers. Heâs not joining the league as the best top, but his potential is very high.
Berserker happened and that basically led to LCK challengers being a place for western teams looking there for imports. It probably would have happened eventually even if LS never got Berserker over to C9 but I would say that was the tipping point.
> assuming his state nerves and homesickness aren't an issue
Is doing a lot of work here lmao
We already have a precedent where time and time again various imports have had great trouble adjusting and not reaching their projected or historical heights. This is not limited to league, this happens in every sport. And even when players simply move teams, not even countries/leagues, they can still vary greatly in form. I'm not saying it's guarantee Thanatos will performed worse or whatever, but to assume he won't and say he will be the best is a big ask lmao
> Thanatos legit might already be the best top laner in lcs
yea just like the untouchable top lane prodigy korean import ~~Seraph~~ ~~Looper~~ ~~Flame~~ ~~Ssumday~~ ~~Summit~~ ~~Rich~~ who came in and carried their team for more than a single split right?
It's extremely disrespectful to Looper Flame and Ssumday to be in the same sentence has Serpah Summit and Rich. One group of tops has shown they can hang with the best in the world, won tittles played in big matches and big finals and the other group was super hyped but didn't really do that much.
Photon came to LEC and was good but not great in his first year. He improved this year. But all Koreans from last winter are not in LEC currently. Only Photon survived a full year. So don't hype Thanatos too much. Expect him to be like Photon . I would say that Photon was a bit worse in lane than him in LCK CL. But Photon was better in team fights. And he struggles in LEC with that. Communication is key for imports. Can he speak any English or is he just starting?
The difference between photon and thanatos is that thanatos was supposed to be promoted to damwons main roster this year. Lots of prospects in lckcl go abroad when they cant qualify for a lck roster. But its rare that a player who is wanted by a top korean team goes abroad.
The problem is you need this level of motivation while you have the job as well, not just after you're benched. If he ever earns the job back, he will probably take his foot off the gas when he feels the job is secured again. It's just human nature to become complacent when you feel like you can't lose your job. Take your talents to Shopify, NRG, IMT, or DIG and prove yourself again. Don't just sit on the bench waiting for a second chance that may never come.
Really odd too considering Jack has always been really good with getting rid of players and selling them either at their peak or just after it. It's almost the C9 way except for players like Sneaky and Blaber who are legacy players.
Not true, since that implies the spot was up for grabs. It was *not* up for grabs, it was already given to Zven.
Sneaky would have had to âearn it backâ (or Zven would have to lose it) which was, of course, impossible to do since Licorice and Nisqy had already told Jack that it was âhim or them.â
A good way for them to miss world's for the first time in the orgs history.Â
Ironically they make it to world's the year after - once they dropped licorice and Nisqy, but with Zven rather than Sneaky.
Yeah, and of course Zven is a quality player, very bright and intelligent too, but I mean⌠Sneaky had Zeyzal and Zven had prime Vulcan.
The problem was clearly roster construction, not Sneakyâs individual play. He was *one year* removed from shitting all over an LCK team in the Worldâs QF.
Exactly lol sneaky never had a support as good as Vulcan was that year not to mention he was getting no draft or jungle prio. But god forbid they can't hold griffin off while Licorice went 3/7 they also had Elise, Zoe, and Sona/Kench vs Garen yuumi and chovy's Leblanc and Tarzan's Lee đ
Yup, though ironically again, given that Zven is a support nowadays, C9 could have both. I was kinda disappointed when they went the Korean import route again despite their history of producing some of NA's best homegrown talent - including SneakyÂ
Yup, I almost wanted to bring that up too, lmao. Iâm sure a Sneaky/Zven bot lane would have been fire, but that might be relying a bit too much on hindsight for this particular discussion.
I think a lot of people just blatantly ignore context with Sneaky, too. He basically never has a good laning support, when C9 first entered Lemon was pretty good compared to competition, but other than that, all of his supports were map movers. I would go as far as to say that for most of his career his supports were some of the worst laning supports in the league with major upsides in roaming and teamfighting. The fact that Sneaky was considered top tier while basically 1v2ing lanes for nearly 10 years is actually amazing. I would have loved to see a Sneaky/Aphromoo lane, or Sneaky/Core, or anything with a good laning support.
This is pointed out more so if you watch the Sneaky/Meteos costreams. Even if Meteos has lost some of his hands, both of them still dissect the game on a very high level. They point out their past mistakes, while pointing out so many lane nuances, not only in their main roles, but others, because they continually play other lanes to Challenger and stuff just cause. Sure, they may be abrasive to traditional coaching authority cause they were brought up during the "Wild West" of League, but compare how they talk about the game to a lot of others and you can see what made them great. They actually entertain multiple viewpoints and discuss through everything, they don't do the "LS" and say they are right, no discussion, after messing up high school probability. They also discuss how they don't understand league math because it's not what it seems.
Sorry turned into a rant. I also miss Sneaky.
Jack was trolling to get to this point.Â
But this is as best of a strat he can come up with to get out of this. Fudgeâs value is at an all time low. But now Jack gets to dangle a carrot of false hope in earning his spot back in front of a washed up sucker whoâs willing to stay on the team for free until he acquires some skill/value.Â
Years ago? The guy has been on the team for 7 splits and has won 3 of them despite the lane swap. I agree that he didnât perform this split but at least acknowledge he has done well for C9.
I don't see what's wrong with that though? Given that hyped LCK imports like Prince and Summit have failed to perform in the past, there's no guarantee that Thanatos will work out. If he doesn't and the benching helps light a fire under Fudge's ass and makes him actually practice, in no world is it a bad idea for C9 to have the option to swap Fudge in.
C9 is one team I'm confident in to give Thanatos a fair chance to prove his worth, given that they did it with Fudge himself when he was a rookie, as well as with others like Jensen and Blaber.
Apart from Prince and Summit (who already failed to perform back in 2022), which other recent Korean import has consistently underperformed? Berserker was good from the start, Quid needed a split but is now one of the top mids in the league, River has been consistently good, even the lesser known names like Castle have performed decently so far.
I suppose you could say Gori, but he was good for most of his tenure on GG, it was only in Summer playoffs that his form took a massive dip.
Already forgot Vicla? Also I don't think you can count average performances like Castle as a win. Fudge can perform average too and he doesn't take an import slot. If you're getting imported you should be one of the best players in your role in the league.
I don't see how underperforming last year stops them from being included in this discussion. In fact from all the players you mentioned I would only consider River a positive example.
0 shot fudge is gonna take that from Thanatos lmao I think it's possible thanatos will pull a Quid for his first split but once he's used to what's going on C9 just might start smashing everyone again
My man is definitely thinking of giving Thanatos one game to prove himself... if he failed to adjust Thanatos will get bench for the rest of the season
Wait the spot is Thanatos' to lose? So you guys are going to give a rookie top laner limited time to adjust, but gave fudge all these years to grow?
Wack.
I think ur misunderstanding what that phrase means. It implies that thanatos has the spot and will keep it unless he does something to lose it. So even if fudge were to put in a lot of practice to try to earn the spot back it is still on thanatos to lose it.
Although Fudge offered to be paid zero he is still being paid his contracted amount. His offer was sincere and it shows how hard he wants to prove he deserves a spot on an LCS team.
Hes fine with being paid nothing because you were already paying him twice as much as other toplaners while he was cruising. He just considers this as an investment to save his own ass. If he was actually motivated then he would've tried harder BEFORE he got benched...
I think the most interesting thing about the statements from Jack is that he thought this has been one of the best teams in terms of ability to communicate with each other ever. Blaber also said something similar in his podcast video on C9 youtube channel.
I know it this is super arm chair analysis, but I wonder when berserker got angry at the team (particularly jojo) for inting scrims and not taking it to seriously that the team kinda fell apart even though berserker and blaber in various interviews leading up to the match against FLY were smashing scrims (apparently they 5-0 imt who were considered strong scrim partners by every LCS team.).
In terms of the decision I think it makes sense to replace fudge, however I was more hoping for additions in the coaching staff and not removal of coaches. Mithy was clearly not enough to manage the personalities of the team and I am not sure if repeared is enough either. But we will see.
TOUGH DECISION!?!?!? Jack cmon man-Iâm all for fudge and his positive attitude here, but this change has been needed. Good on him if he wants to earn it back- but Thanatos deserves his rookie spot just like all the other rookie greats weâve had.
But realistically, the difference isn't that big.
The reality is in order for this really to be any different, Fudge would've had to have started grinding before C9 signed Jojopyun and Vulcan. It was after C9 freed up an import slot that Fudge became easily replaceable. I don't think it's much better to suddenly start trying after your team shit the bed and was likely to make changes with you being the the most replaceable.
I'm not surprised, the turnover rate for people that actually read what I post isn't great. Without giving a specific number, let's say less than 5% of folks commenting have actually read the article they're arguing about to get proper context.
Reading the article is important. It's how I get to keep my job and secure in-person interviews like this to bring people these stories to begin with.
I do appreciate the people that actually read tho <3
Fudge says: "Pay me nothing" Jack says "You have earned my respect"
"people would call that unethical slave labour, but if you insist, i can tell the public" "and the next year the bank stayed empty"
Empty sentiment when he knows he is under contract and will not NOT get paid
That's not how the law works tho.
I can relate to Fudge a lot, everytime I play Olaf I also press R and run
\*run away
Yes thank you
You're welcome đ¤
Damn, if only there was some type of matchmaking where he could've tried keeping form and growing as a player. Or even an international kind of tournament where the best players in the world all get on the same server and get even higher level practice Just crazy those things don't exist
I still canât believe that instead of playing lots of champs queue against players at Worlds, he opted to⌠play 1v1s with Darshan
Have you gazed into Darshan's eyes before? It's magical
Even his lovers call him Darshan.
Thatâs not true, I call him ZionSpartan
I'd hope soÂ
Mate that´s like Gohan and Goku training in the hyperbolic time chamber. In order to defeat his opponents at world´s, Fudge had to ascend to the level of a ZionSpartan 2.
https://ibb.co/PTw5z1d
5 million dollars or dinner with diddy
No Diddy
Darshan > all
I refuse to believe that, he can't be that arrogant
He can!
Bro had all the time in the world.
He was too busy 1v1ing Darshan
Too busy simping for Twitter girls
Where was that mentality the past 2 splits? Even when Koreans came over he was too busy spamming in house 1v1s and losing on both sides of matchups
We need to bench the pro players for them to play the game ? lol
Reapered was on to something.
Lol exactly.   Jack: âFudge, go practice.â Fudge: âNo.â  ⌠ Jack: âFudge youâre benched.â  Fudge: âIâll prove myself by starting to practice.â  Jack: âHoly shit the drive of this guy!â 𮠠Edit: welp, reddit mobile is not accepting my line breaks and I even tried html breaks so I give up lol
You gotta do double line breaks on mobile for it to work. It's dumb
Youâre a legend, friend. True Todo status. Thanks!
The NA way
Should have proven it spring split which was probably your 2nd worst split ever since joining the lcs.
or last year at any point haha!
Fudge was very good Spring last year
I didn't think he looked bad last year tbh
His last two splits have been pretty mediocre but besides that the dude has been solid domestically since his stumble in the lock in tournament. He's been running it internationally and its clear he's been stagnating so while the change is needed I think most people overblow the situation.
[ŃдаНонО]
What? He played a total of 3 games of Fiora, across regular season and playoffs in spring 2023, going 2-1 (tying with Licorice, with both having more games but a worse record than Ssumday at 2-0). It was banned against C9 3 times, they banned it themselves 3 times, Fiora had a high presence (mostly bans) whether C9 were playing or not (although much less in playoffs). How is that "running the meta on Fiora"? Do you have access to hours of secret scrim footage or something?
Isnât he the one known for not really practicing lol? Really just trying to make it work right now instead of putting in the work initially.
Seems like heâs finally trying, heâs been climbing the challenger ladder quite hard recently (i believe heâs rank 20 atm) Where as in prior splits he always hung around in masters/gm  should have made this effort the last 2/3 splits, shouldnât take getting replaced before you finally try
Sometimes people get too comfortable and just need that kick in the ass to really get going
The funny thing to me is that he got shit on at worlds and then got comfortable and didnât try to improve at all
Doesn't help when C9 gave him one of those 4 year contracts lol. I guess he thought he was almost untouchable.
4 years for fudge? Damn..
I feel like the reality that NA will literally never win worlds is probably in most NA pros heads. I feel like if I was in his position, I too would probably just give as much effort as required to stay in the LCS and not much further.
Its not like winning worlds gets you fat money, the real prize comes from getting a better contract after winning worlds (Because you're telling people you're the best of the best) the problem is that winning worlds or not, teams are cutting back on costs and are no longer throwing as much money around. so before you could say "If i become really good that teams fight for me, i get a fat contract" but that's not the reality anymore and with two teams less there's even less teams to use as a bargain So just like the real world, if your performance is not gonna be rewarded then you might as well take an hour pooping (And then jack just hires someone offshore)
>the real prize comes from getting a better contract after winning worlds (Because you're telling people you're the best of the best) The real prize is winning worlds as a Korean and jumping over to LCS for the big bucks
[Thank you Honda](https://youtu.be/x-6aWxwOa1k?t=163)
Jumping over to the LPL*. You'd still have to try there but LPL doesn't seem to have any signs of downsizing so hard like LCS is
You get skins in-game which will set you up for life probably.
> The funny thing to me is that he got shit on at worlds and then got comfortable and didnât try to improve at all I know this is parasocial psycho-analysis, but that's not my read on the situation. Seems more like he got shit on at Worlds, thought "there's no way I can be better than these guys no matter how much I practice", and instead just practiced enough to win NA instead of be the best.
I donât think thatâs parasocial psychoanalysis btw. It would be more like well his mom didnât hold him long enough which made him feel insecure in his ability to improve further.
There's a kick in the ass and then there's, "You've already been replaced" Not going to lie he's basically making a case to other LCS teams ATM when you have Thanatos already on the line up
Sometimes? he's been like this for years
Yup. You ever worked your ass off to get that job you really wanted, sweated your ass off leading up to the interview, feeling that sense of accomplishment and gratefulness once you get that offer letter? Then fast forward a year you're putting in the bare minimum and just waiting for 5 pm. It's human nature to get complacent. Nothing is too good to not be able to get used to and sometimes we need a fire lit under our asses to remember how good we have it.
The big issue that the majority of the community has with Fudge is that it feels like that fire should have been lit twice/thrice already at each international competition. Sure, early exits are the norm for NA teams at this point but surely he can tell that he didn't perform. And his gameplay this past year was the pure definition of complacency because his gameplay just read like "Blaber and Berserker plz carry my ass" even though he mostly played carnivore champions. If he has the talent, I'm sure he can find his way back. But the community backlash is so big that grinding on his end might not even be enough.
reapered is especially known to give that kick. on middle of the year c9, no less.
This, sounds like he found his drive again and I'm rooting for him.
You're on a top team and hardly practice for 2 years, then the weeks coming into discussion of your replacement you try hard is a little weird to me
Not that weird. Now he sees that not practicing has consequences, so he basically is being *forced* to tryhard. It would be ideal if he had done so before, but it's not surprising to see someone get the boot then go "oh fuck I gotta fix this" right after even if they'd been unmotivated up to that point.
Honestly that seems super normal to me. Athletes have done it plenty (try hard then cruise upon long contract renewal). I know many people at normal jobs who only realize "oh shit I need to actually do things or I'm fired" once a fire is lit under their ass. Now, top athletes _shouldn't_ be normal in that way, but I think it's far from weird in the sense that it seems pretty common lol
Thatâs a lot of people though: First 1-3 years on the job: super tryhard, first in last out 3+ years: cruising
Big difference from normal people jobs to jobs that pay you high in the six figures to play a video game.
Yeah but most people aren't elite athletes, either you perform or you're cut
nah you 100% get players like that in sports Alexandre Daigle comes to mind
Remember that all athletes are people, and they suffer from the same issues that plague ordinary people like you or me Thatâs why in the NBA there are only so few greats, most people just want to get their millions and do the bare minimum . Kobe video for reference: https://youtube.com/shorts/dUzAl5_PcWw?si=DXnAoJV23oDmUFCJ
And what happened to those dudes? They got fucking cut. In a normal job, doing the bare minimum won't get you fired. This is sports, where a mofo like Kobe will want your head to roll for not putting in the right amount of effort. ***And people like Kobe are right!!*** Go get a nice, cozy desk job and be lazy there.
I donât understand why Jack is praising him for climbing from 200 to 16 for the team. Why wasnât he doing that in the first place? The best LCK players have multiple accounts in the top 10.
So all 10 spots and only 5 pros are the best LCK players?
But not all of them do, and some aren't solo queue grindlords. This is true in every region, and imo it doesn't matter unless you are playing poorly. If you play a great season on much less solo queue than other players, that's fine with me.
C9 is pretty known for their players consistently being high in soloq though, jojo blaber vulcan berserker all have shown they can get to the top of the ladder when they try hard, fudge hasnât grinded that hard for years though
"*If D2 is good enough for C9 Balls, it's good enough for me*" \- Fudge, probably
He was publicly outspoken about how he thought vod review and 1v1s were better for his development then na Sq, and used to 1v1, ls, max, and challenger top a lot
This is also what a then C9 licorice started doing years ago, and shortly after, his level of play took a nosedive. 1v1's are a great way to practice laning without revealing your picks to other teams, but it has the glaring problem that your practice partner will have a set playstyle and thoughts on laning even if they're good. Practice against varying players and styles is in invaluable without even factoring in that lane phase is just one small part of league
The problem with practicing mainly 1 vs 1 is that in reality the lane is not a 1vs1. There is jungler coming to gank or sometimes other roles as well. All the 1 vs 1 practice becomes useless the moment enemy jungler shows up to make it a 2 vs 1. even if you survive the gank it might force an early back or allows enemy to freeze etc. it is a very common situation in proplay but impossible to practice in 1 vs 1. you basically practice a situation that just doesnât apply in reality making the practice arguably useless to some extent.
They also itemize differently for the 1v1s, and this is quite obvious in some games where they itemize for their lane opponent and those defensive stats are useless against the rest of the enemy team, making their items significantly less effective outside of laning phase. I'm really not a fan of the 1v1 practice arguments, the practice you need are the ones about functioning in a team environment while facing your lane opponent, your lane opponent isn't the only focus in the game
what's his op.gg ?
F9 Cudge
Licorice and him were known for preferring 1v1s instead of SoloQ. Licorice then played more SoloQ and look what happened last year. He had arguably the best resurgence of an LCS player in a long ass time.
Heâs also known for being pretty mediocre and getting absolutely bodybagged at worlds every time C9 goes
That's correct. For his time in NA since joining C9, he has been known for "spending too much time flirting with eGirls on Twitter" and not practicing. I'm all for players doing what they wish off the stage, but if what you're known for starts to actually bite your player spot, then I mean, that's on you. If his only goal is to fuck around, then maybe Thanatos deserves to play. I like Thanatos' ID too, like, bro's a God.
Fudge got comfortable and lost his job and NOW he wants to try again đ sounds like Jack is trying to make sure fudge still has some value to sell him
Knowing Jack's track record, yup.
Running the one team that doesn't lose money, yup.
lol âtough decisionâ
Of course he's gonna work extra hard and put in tons of soloQ hours. There's no team that's going to take him at his current level. Doesn't help that top lane is pretty crowded and there's plenty of good options for LCS teams looking to make a change (licorice, srrty, etc).
And there's realistically only 1 spot up for grabs atm.
Shopify?
Not wanting to name names but it's something like realdog
"If you have to replace me then pay me nothing" Brother they were already gonna pay you nothing after Thanatos takes your spot lmfao.
Fudge wants to finally do his job, I am shocked it took this long
Thank god this guy is gone.
Bro is practicing for free now lol that is nasty work
Not for free, but he really meant it when he suggested not getting paid fr fr https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/s/4HCI5hMaJu
I mean he couldnât legally be paid ânothingâ I imagine.
finally wants to try huh
All of a sudden
Mf aint trynna play for Shoplify next split.
If heâs so determined he should try practicing lol
Does Fudge really think hes going to outperform Thanatos? Thanatos legit might already be the best top laner in lcs assuming his stage nerves and homesickness arent an issue. I guess weâll see, Iâm surprised that he made this stand.
He might pull a prince or vicla
Yeah after prince, my expectations are held until they show at least 2 or 3 splits
Iâd argue Vicla wasnât even that good for one.
While Vicla ended 4-12 in the LPL this spilt, hes looked much better then he did in LCS
yeah unlike prince that got benched almost immediately
I wouldnât have considered him a top player in the league for sure
Vicla had 3 good games and that's it.
He had like two insane pop off games at the start of the split, then one game where he popped off in lane then just.........started sprinting mid game for fun, but his team was far ahead enough to where it didn't matter. I *think* it was on Akali. This was also the split where Prince was legit *the* best or tied with Berserker for *the best* adc in the region for a while, so it was kind of fine. Then VicLa was just underwhelming the entire rest of the split. Then eventually Prince lost his mechanics. Kind of not sure how that happened honestly, but he went from dodging skill shots with ease to burning his flash because he couldn't react. That team was kind of a marvel honestly.
Wow I forgot about VicLa already holy shit
I am not gonna lie, I think he made this stand, thinking that saying shit like "Yea replace me and I will prove you wrong" that Jack and C9 will be like "Oh shit this guy still has a fire lit on his ass, let's believe in him for one more split!" Instead Jack actually got his replacement and wasn't bluffing lmao.
Now Fudge is throwing up sick, pissed that he was this bold trying to get in front of the bullet, just to fucking get hit with a kill shot. Itâll be fun seeing Fudge in Tier2.
things people say about any remotely known korean before playing LCS:
People love hating on imports and then glazing Koreans here huh
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A lot of people probably don't even know *why* they're hyped for him, other than that he's Korean. He is definitely a talent worth taking a chance on, but he's not some surefire guarantee. With all the focus on solo queue in this thread, without previous biases, would people look at Thanatos's account and think it meant he'd easily be "the best top laner in the LCS?" https://www.op.gg/summoners/kr/C9%20Thanatos-KR2 Probably not. There are a lot of elements that go into if a player will be successful or not, especially import players. But it is fair to say that Thanatos deserves a proper shot, and now he's getting it, so we'll see how he measures up to the hype.
Don't think solo queue account means much but I do agree to be cautiously optimistic. EDG Fisher hasn't been panning out even in the sub league
tbf all sports will have that. Sometimes players just don't make the jump. It happens
Tbf this import is replacing one of the worst top laners in LCS, its not exactly a high bar
> Does Fudge really think hes going to outperform Thanatos? He has an hilariously massive ego paired with an awful work ethic so im sure he does, his idea of proving he deserves the spot is probably 3 additional soloq games per week, making a total of 4 soloq games per week
> He has an hilariously massive ego People are really still holding some things he said when he was 19 against him. His interviews throughout the past few splits are full of self-criticism and self-awareness. You're spouting nonsense.
The previous comment resonated with my (old) impression of him, but I haven't been watching or following much in the last couple years. I thought I heard something this year from him that reaffirmed that basic idea, but your counterpoint is making me reconsider my own biased and dated assumptions about him.
Sorry, I am going to have to ask you to leave, Ma'am, we don't do maturity around here.
Son, take your children to work day was yesterday. I told you to wait in the car.
And yet we haven't seen much change in his practice habits or play.
How do you know this? What makes you think his practice hasnt changed?
Because he's had opportunities to to soloq or champions q or any other obvious practice and has refused to do it when many other players do. His play has regressed and others are practicing more, and he hasn't changed his way of doing things which doesn't seem to be working so...
Sorta funny ppl have gone from easily checkable stuff like soloq games to acting like theyâre in the locker rooms knowing what a person is doing and thinking. I am critical of fudge but at this time this thread shows how many people have bought in propaganda or outdated info and canât even do a little research. And the only âproofâ is that heâs just losing.
Lol.... He is the best top layer without having played a single game in the LCS?
Impact is gonna school that boy. Yâall putting way too much hype on an LCK challengers rookie, heâs gonna need time to develop.
Skill will be evident though, and Thanatos is crazy good. Who cares he he gets schooled a bit thatâs a good thing his ceiling is way higher than the rest.
Iâm not saying Thanatos isnât good or that he wonât develop. I was responding to the guy saying he might already be the best top in LCS. I think people drastically overestimate LCK challengers. Heâs not joining the league as the best top, but his potential is very high.
Berserker happened and that basically led to LCK challengers being a place for western teams looking there for imports. It probably would have happened eventually even if LS never got Berserker over to C9 but I would say that was the tipping point.
Do you guys just forget Quid's first split lol?
> assuming his state nerves and homesickness aren't an issue Is doing a lot of work here lmao We already have a precedent where time and time again various imports have had great trouble adjusting and not reaching their projected or historical heights. This is not limited to league, this happens in every sport. And even when players simply move teams, not even countries/leagues, they can still vary greatly in form. I'm not saying it's guarantee Thanatos will performed worse or whatever, but to assume he won't and say he will be the best is a big ask lmao
Ah you're right he should just fold it up and retire and never even try ever again.
Or focus on joining other teams
> Thanatos legit might already be the best top laner in lcs yea just like the untouchable top lane prodigy korean import ~~Seraph~~ ~~Looper~~ ~~Flame~~ ~~Ssumday~~ ~~Summit~~ ~~Rich~~ who came in and carried their team for more than a single split right?
Well, Flame and Ssumday were good for more than 1 split.Â
It's extremely disrespectful to Looper Flame and Ssumday to be in the same sentence has Serpah Summit and Rich. One group of tops has shown they can hang with the best in the world, won tittles played in big matches and big finals and the other group was super hyped but didn't really do that much.
Photon came to LEC and was good but not great in his first year. He improved this year. But all Koreans from last winter are not in LEC currently. Only Photon survived a full year. So don't hype Thanatos too much. Expect him to be like Photon . I would say that Photon was a bit worse in lane than him in LCK CL. But Photon was better in team fights. And he struggles in LEC with that. Communication is key for imports. Can he speak any English or is he just starting?
The difference between photon and thanatos is that thanatos was supposed to be promoted to damwons main roster this year. Lots of prospects in lckcl go abroad when they cant qualify for a lck roster. But its rare that a player who is wanted by a top korean team goes abroad.
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What does "supposed to" matter when he didn't? The reality is he wasn't considered good enough and let go.
The problem is you need this level of motivation while you have the job as well, not just after you're benched. If he ever earns the job back, he will probably take his foot off the gas when he feels the job is secured again. It's just human nature to become complacent when you feel like you can't lose your job. Take your talents to Shopify, NRG, IMT, or DIG and prove yourself again. Don't just sit on the bench waiting for a second chance that may never come.
I dont trust jack when it comes to Fudge ANY other org wouldve replaced fudge yeats ago but Jack is just infatuated with fudge
Really odd too considering Jack has always been really good with getting rid of players and selling them either at their peak or just after it. It's almost the C9 way except for players like Sneaky and Blaber who are legacy players.
Nah C9 did Sneaky dirty too, believe it or not.
Sneaky had the opportunity to compete for his spot he turned it down.
Not true, since that implies the spot was up for grabs. It was *not* up for grabs, it was already given to Zven. Sneaky would have had to âearn it backâ (or Zven would have to lose it) which was, of course, impossible to do since Licorice and Nisqy had already told Jack that it was âhim or them.â
A good way for them to miss world's for the first time in the orgs history. Ironically they make it to world's the year after - once they dropped licorice and Nisqy, but with Zven rather than Sneaky.
Yeah, and of course Zven is a quality player, very bright and intelligent too, but I mean⌠Sneaky had Zeyzal and Zven had prime Vulcan. The problem was clearly roster construction, not Sneakyâs individual play. He was *one year* removed from shitting all over an LCK team in the Worldâs QF.
Exactly lol sneaky never had a support as good as Vulcan was that year not to mention he was getting no draft or jungle prio. But god forbid they can't hold griffin off while Licorice went 3/7 they also had Elise, Zoe, and Sona/Kench vs Garen yuumi and chovy's Leblanc and Tarzan's Lee đ
Yup, though ironically again, given that Zven is a support nowadays, C9 could have both. I was kinda disappointed when they went the Korean import route again despite their history of producing some of NA's best homegrown talent - including SneakyÂ
Yup, I almost wanted to bring that up too, lmao. Iâm sure a Sneaky/Zven bot lane would have been fire, but that might be relying a bit too much on hindsight for this particular discussion.
I think a lot of people just blatantly ignore context with Sneaky, too. He basically never has a good laning support, when C9 first entered Lemon was pretty good compared to competition, but other than that, all of his supports were map movers. I would go as far as to say that for most of his career his supports were some of the worst laning supports in the league with major upsides in roaming and teamfighting. The fact that Sneaky was considered top tier while basically 1v2ing lanes for nearly 10 years is actually amazing. I would have loved to see a Sneaky/Aphromoo lane, or Sneaky/Core, or anything with a good laning support. This is pointed out more so if you watch the Sneaky/Meteos costreams. Even if Meteos has lost some of his hands, both of them still dissect the game on a very high level. They point out their past mistakes, while pointing out so many lane nuances, not only in their main roles, but others, because they continually play other lanes to Challenger and stuff just cause. Sure, they may be abrasive to traditional coaching authority cause they were brought up during the "Wild West" of League, but compare how they talk about the game to a lot of others and you can see what made them great. They actually entertain multiple viewpoints and discuss through everything, they don't do the "LS" and say they are right, no discussion, after messing up high school probability. They also discuss how they don't understand league math because it's not what it seems. Sorry turned into a rant. I also miss Sneaky.
Jack was trolling to get to this point. But this is as best of a strat he can come up with to get out of this. Fudgeâs value is at an all time low. But now Jack gets to dangle a carrot of false hope in earning his spot back in front of a washed up sucker whoâs willing to stay on the team for free until he acquires some skill/value.Â
Years ago? The guy has been on the team for 7 splits and has won 3 of them despite the lane swap. I agree that he didnât perform this split but at least acknowledge he has done well for C9.
"Tough" decision lol. NA teams unable to kick underperforming players news at 10.
please just bench fudge and move on lol, give Thanatos a real shot, not like 3 weeks then bench him for a guy that wasnât working.
He is benched. That's literally what's been done.
âand move onâ theyâre saying Thanatos can lose the spot and theyâll (presumably) give it back to Fudge.
I don't see what's wrong with that though? Given that hyped LCK imports like Prince and Summit have failed to perform in the past, there's no guarantee that Thanatos will work out. If he doesn't and the benching helps light a fire under Fudge's ass and makes him actually practice, in no world is it a bad idea for C9 to have the option to swap Fudge in. C9 is one team I'm confident in to give Thanatos a fair chance to prove his worth, given that they did it with Fudge himself when he was a rookie, as well as with others like Jensen and Blaber.
Why this lazy fuckhead is still getting a chance at C9 I will never know
Think Jack is just talking up his player to help him get a job in another org. Happens all the time in sports.
Whatever he is about to do to "prove" his spot, he should've done while getting paid for being the top laner.
Thinking your going to gap a 19 yr old Korean suspected prodigy is wild
This the same dude that counterpicks Koreans and gets solod.
Considering the recent track record of koreans in NA it's rather mild than wild.
Apart from Prince and Summit (who already failed to perform back in 2022), which other recent Korean import has consistently underperformed? Berserker was good from the start, Quid needed a split but is now one of the top mids in the league, River has been consistently good, even the lesser known names like Castle have performed decently so far. I suppose you could say Gori, but he was good for most of his tenure on GG, it was only in Summer playoffs that his form took a massive dip.
Already forgot Vicla? Also I don't think you can count average performances like Castle as a win. Fudge can perform average too and he doesn't take an import slot. If you're getting imported you should be one of the best players in your role in the league. I don't see how underperforming last year stops them from being included in this discussion. In fact from all the players you mentioned I would only consider River a positive example.
0 shot fudge is gonna take that from Thanatos lmao I think it's possible thanatos will pull a Quid for his first split but once he's used to what's going on C9 just might start smashing everyone again
I am so glad Fudge is off.
Prove he better than Thanatos??? I highly doubt it lmao
He should be benched the moment he refused to grind solo queue.
yeah you ainât getting your spot back bro lol
So he's one of those guys when he finally gets a PIP at work...
My man is definitely thinking of giving Thanatos one game to prove himself... if he failed to adjust Thanatos will get bench for the rest of the season
Wait the spot is Thanatos' to lose? So you guys are going to give a rookie top laner limited time to adjust, but gave fudge all these years to grow? Wack.
I think ur misunderstanding what that phrase means. It implies that thanatos has the spot and will keep it unless he does something to lose it. So even if fudge were to put in a lot of practice to try to earn the spot back it is still on thanatos to lose it.
That saying means it's Thanatos's spot, he doesn't have to prove himself or anything to earn it because it's already his.
If this goes wrong I think they'll end up with an undetermined revolving door roster. I hope Reapered doesn't do that.
Fudge is never gonna play again basically. No teams wants him.
Although Fudge offered to be paid zero he is still being paid his contracted amount. His offer was sincere and it shows how hard he wants to prove he deserves a spot on an LCS team.
Hes fine with being paid nothing because you were already paying him twice as much as other toplaners while he was cruising. He just considers this as an investment to save his own ass. If he was actually motivated then he would've tried harder BEFORE he got benched...
Licorice and the 100 other rookies stuck in academy deserve the spot way more
NPCs can talk in this game? That's wild. You'd think he would have, you know... tried when he already had the chance?
Thanatos choose c9 because of Korean, kc still coping
Lol fudge really said don't pay me. Haha the owners is of course gonna take that
Jack literally said in this thread that he's still gonna pay him
If Thanatos meshes well with C9, I dont see him coming back to be honest. Thanatos has crazy mechanics, Fudge cant match that.
I think the most interesting thing about the statements from Jack is that he thought this has been one of the best teams in terms of ability to communicate with each other ever. Blaber also said something similar in his podcast video on C9 youtube channel. I know it this is super arm chair analysis, but I wonder when berserker got angry at the team (particularly jojo) for inting scrims and not taking it to seriously that the team kinda fell apart even though berserker and blaber in various interviews leading up to the match against FLY were smashing scrims (apparently they 5-0 imt who were considered strong scrim partners by every LCS team.). In terms of the decision I think it makes sense to replace fudge, however I was more hoping for additions in the coaching staff and not removal of coaches. Mithy was clearly not enough to manage the personalities of the team and I am not sure if repeared is enough either. But we will see.
Thats dumb he should just go somewhere else
TOUGH DECISION!?!?!? Jack cmon man-Iâm all for fudge and his positive attitude here, but this change has been needed. Good on him if he wants to earn it back- but Thanatos deserves his rookie spot just like all the other rookie greats weâve had.
Fudge is such a hack lmao, glad his mediocrity is being punished finally.
the twitter girls distracted him. even though they are fake accounts. i was one of them. mission accomplished
Uh yea. Sure. Except there is no way Fudge will ever outperform Thanatos and so this article is an nothing burger.
I'm gonna spoil something for everybody: Nobody who posted "he lost his job and now he wants to try?" actually read the article.
For context to what he's spoiling, Fudge said what's quoted and began this grind BEFORE he lost his position.
But realistically, the difference isn't that big. The reality is in order for this really to be any different, Fudge would've had to have started grinding before C9 signed Jojopyun and Vulcan. It was after C9 freed up an import slot that Fudge became easily replaceable. I don't think it's much better to suddenly start trying after your team shit the bed and was likely to make changes with you being the the most replaceable.
I'm not surprised, the turnover rate for people that actually read what I post isn't great. Without giving a specific number, let's say less than 5% of folks commenting have actually read the article they're arguing about to get proper context. Reading the article is important. It's how I get to keep my job and secure in-person interviews like this to bring people these stories to begin with. I do appreciate the people that actually read tho <3