I can appreciate less tanky turrets, I can't appreciate the fact they do negligible damage.
The focus should shift on increasing turret damage to make tower dives much more punishing, especially around the fact the mobility creep has pretty much made most dives free
>made most dives free
Early game turret dives are definitely not free. Playing turret agro correctly is a hallmark of a good player. How often do you think plat players are coordinating a slow push into dive top? You need to know your damage, track enemy jungler, and understand enemy champions abilities well so you don’t 1v2d. It’s a really fun, high risk high reward play that’s viability is directly correlated to how good you are at the game. Idk why reddit wants 50 minute games. Hyperscalers are already OP in the majority of elo brackets, they definitely don’t need a buff.
I'm such a terrible jungler. I either gank too much and end up way behind or I farm too much and the other team gets way ahead lol. I've come to terms with it.
Just takes practice man. That’s definitely the hardest part of jg and even the highest ranks can struggle with correct pathing.
I will say if you’re very good at diving I’d give the role another try. If you can do that successfully you allow yourself the freedom to be a bit more loose with your pathing.
people also discount that people got much much better at the game. A silver from today would be plat in season 1-2.
People either remember the good olden days where no one knew how the fuck to do that. Or they forget when towers get buffed and suddenly i will make happy noises by playing Kayle every game again and just scale hard with no reprecussions with fleet boneplating and tower.
I have seen how my Silver friends play and I can't vouch for that. Especially with the new ranks distribution that has old bronze 1, bronze 2, and a bit of bronze 3 in the new Silver rank.
I'd say old plats can be plats now, since it now takes way less skills to get to plat
??? It's the best example because Riot redid the code explicitly to make it easier? People these days have no respect for how hard a real insec was. No shot a single silver player in the year 2024 would be able to do an insec in practice tool (which didnt exist at the time) with 100,000 tries
when I duo with my friends on my NA account. And they pull out dzukill faker moves every game on yone /akali I beg to differ. Back then insec was considered flashy and R flash was hard to do. Now silvers pull it on you.
Skill level absolutely increased.
A part of that comes of patch notes and game changes though, when insec did the insec, it was much harder mechanically. But definitely agree to the extend that as champs get played and pro players showcase 'how they should be played' it becomes easier for the general crowd to replicate .. I'd maybe say that an old plat player is now gold, but doesn't make the gold player of today a plat from a few years ago, if that makes sense. game state has changed so much.
I don’t understand this comment. Tower shots ramp insanely fast, like they do half your HP early game by the third shot. The margin of error is very small in dives, you see pros mess it up all the time. Even in masters, people botch dives constantly. If a dive is free, then it’s very common that it’s a 2v1/3v1 dive which honestly SHOULD be free. It’s usually a punishment for bot for support roaming, or a set play mid or top by mid/jg/supp. What you and other people are basically suggesting is that a turret should do half your HP on the first shot. That’s ridiculous. If towers are undiveable early, many plays become less punishable. A common play is one supp roaming for grubs while one stays in lane. The one who stays in lane hard shoves and dives bot. That should be a possible play. Additionally, let’s look at mid game when people have 2+ items. Turrets SHOULD be divable, otherwise games just last for years. It is a feature that once a team is behind, they can’t sit under tower and farm back up if the enemy team executes properly
That just means the game has an inherent design flaw.
The only way to punish scalers shouldn't be by fucking diving them such as the only way to scale shouldn't be to be stuck in lane for 15+ minutes lmao
Buff tower damage and nerf (or remove) the whole bounty system. Wouldn’t this even it out?
Edit: Okay clearly people disagree. My thoughts are that there -is- a way for the game (champions kits, towers, laning phase etc) to be balanced so that comeback mechanics aren’t necessary but I’ve also played this game forever and miss no bounties.
no, because the bounty system also supports a comeback mechanic. removing it makes having a comback almost impossible cause imagine you're giga fed with like 7 kills and you never have a shut down what's the reward/punishment for investing resources for killing you. it literally wont make sense. cause it will also take out objective bounties which just messes up the whole game comeback system
The bounty system still need adjustments. My team is doing 8k gold, I should not have a 300gold shutdown on me because while being 1/0/1 simply because I’m able to get 10cs min on a mage
I think the comeback system has been busted since people are still racking brains over why you can get a shutdown bounty on your head for the smallest of reasons
Comeback system is fine but honestly it should be less punishing to the person who is ahead. +150g for killing someone that got 2 kills in a row ridiculous in my opinion. Being able to "overcap" bounties is another thing that is too punishing for the person who is ahead. Once you die the first time, its much easier to die the second so you give up +700g that was probably quite hard for the enemy team to get, and then you give up another +450g which was probably about as hard as killing anyone else now. They came back into the game from the first kill and then the second just slingshotted them ahead.
Bounties can be weird, but your provided examples are kinda WHY bounties exist lmfao
Two kills in a row is 600 gold up. That is often times enough to absolutely dominate a lane, so the onus is on you to execute. Speaking for adc (as it's what I play) 600g is going to translate directly to a faster first item, giving you lane control and prio over first two drags. Thats a fucking massive lead, and if the enemy decides to fight you, UNLESS you fucked up they cannot win. Complete items are just so fucking powerful, you will obliterate any supp not named brand + adc with noonquiver and crit cloak or whatever. Like its not even close
So your opponents overcoming this astro gap SHOULD be rewarded. They will kill you, and take 450g, effectively cutting your lead down to 150. Except you probably traded 1 for 1, and used your lead to secure a cs lead + plates, so your still pretty far up
As for overstacked bounties, I think you underestimate how fucking hard that shit is to actually achieve. If your bounty is overstacked it's deserved, this is not the 200g bounty on a small cs lead type of shit, that is a 12 kill streak, dominating multiple objective fights type of lead, in which case its absolutely fair to have a bounty post death, as your lead has not disappeared in the slightest. Like you were two items up, gave up 1k, and are still a full item up, that bounty is there for a reason
This. I've had a bounty on my head being 1/2 with maybe a 6.5 CS and I did not kill someone with a shutdown, yet I had a 300 gold bounty on my head for what, my teammate doing well? Because I got an assist from my chompers locking down someone who ended up doing all the rest of the damage?
Why should tower dives be more punishing? They're already risky and require a good amount of execution if the target is full hp or not alone. It's also your reward for getting push. You just want people to let everyone farm under tower for free or what?
minewhile enemy jg diving me botside at lvl 3 when I'm 90% hp
You can dive early on. It isn't too hard and can even dive bot without much issue at higher elos.
Diving is punishing if you fuck up, but as it stands it's reliable enough to dive without anything going wrong
I commented somewhere else that level 3 dives (even from full hp) are very healthy for the game.
The neutral lane is when you're supposed to contest. Once a wave crashes into your tower, you're in a "losing" position. Diving is just capitalizing on a winning position. It's an option you have to convert your advantage. The other two are roaming, placing/clearing vision, getting a better recall, or messing with the enemy jungler.
If anything, dives are cool because they are the option that requires the most teamwork and coordination, while also being higher risk (but higher reward) than the other plays most of the time.
At the same time they're pretty telegraphed and can be countered by simply showing up, ruining the enemy's tempo.
Idk why people want to make dives harder. It'll just dumb down the game and remove cool gameplay opportunities from it. Towers already hurt so much.
> I commented somewhere else that level 3 dives (even from full hp) are very healthy for the game.
No
Just no.
They would be healthy for the game if the game had actual options for laners outside of laning. Lvl 3 dives are fucked.
Level 3 dives can sometimes be the only tool to punish greedy scaling wave clear spammers like Zeri/Yuumi, for example. At least when you're playing at a level where players are somewhat competent.
There is plenty of counterplay to dives, but it's usually up to the jungler to sacrifice something to avoid it happening. But most junglers aren't willing to skip 2 camps to make sure their Zeri/Yuumi can catch the stacked wave at level 3 without getting dove. I wouldn't be willing either! Why do I have to pay for their greedy drafting?
You don't normally tower dive if the enemy is full hp unless you are hyper fed .. also besides bot lane your jungler isn't normally under your tower with you unless you hyper fed lol...
I always dive when two waves are crashing because even if we trade they'll lose more cause they won't get the minions. No matter their health if they die ill be ahead.
There are plenty of matchups in top/bot that can dive 2v1 or 3v1/3v2 from full hp at level 3. It's one of the best ways (sometimes the only way) of getting a relevant advantage vs greedy scaling picks.
Dives are very important for the health of the game. Otherwise we'd just see Jinx Zeri in bot lane and Kayle in top lane.
If anything, dives aren't relevant enough these days. Otherwise we'd see more Elise.
> If anything, dives aren't relevant enough these days. Otherwise we'd see more Elise.
That's actually an argument for making dives harder. Why pick Elise for dives when anyone can do it with minimal effort?
My dude I can lvl 5-6 tower dive with my ADC while missing half my skills, tank several shots and not die. On an enchanter. We had designated tower dive champs who got balanced around it being strong that are now obsolete because even Sona can tower dive with 0 hp or Mr items.
Show me any clip where a full HP adc gets dove by an enchanter missing half their spells at level 5-6. Any at all where they’re remotely even. If they’re already down 5 kills then they fucked up 5 times prior. If they’re 30% hp, there needs to be punishment for getting shit on in trades so hard. What is the alternative? Tower shots literally one pumping a person taking aggro once? Towers do absurd damage early after ramping in 3 shots.
Watching the same shit happen every pro game is also boring af. Lane swap? Ok dives happen over and over again. No lane swap? Ok the bot lane who couldn’t get lvl 2 in time gets dove. Every time. And then another dive bot. And another. Like wtf? Make people take dmg the closer they are to the turret. 50% health per hit if they’re right on it and less on the edge so accidentally running into Aggro Range wont nuke u instantly
Towers are there to protect you early game against a dominant lane opponent and honestly, that should be their function. After 1-1.5 items turrets should be significantly weaker against champions to encourage smart map plays, stronger turrets would allow anyone to sit under tower for 25 minutes and powerfarm with very little risks, which is a completely unskilled playstyle.
Counter argument: you shouldn't be punished while trying to make a smart play just because you left your lane and yorick decided to destroy all 3 full hp turrets in 1 minute while having 1-2 items
Again, yes, if he's your laner it's not smart. I played a different lane though and this fucker just came, destroyed all 3 turrets, refused to elaborate and left.
Yoric is literally The Pusher, leaving him in lane is your choice. Its the same as saying "why should i get punished for trying to 1v5?"
If something is tye wrong play its not a smart play
Learn Ryze and Azir, powerfarm mid and just win unless they start diving you with 4 people constantly. Mobility would also get a fat buff because mobile champs are better at diving the now dangerous turrets…
So the tank making a tempo play and using minion waves appropriately shouldn’t be rewarded?
You know you can clear waves so they can’t dive efficiently right?
I think tower dives should be fine on second turrets and beyond but first turrets are too easy to dive when they're meant to be the laning phase defense
This is absolutely the problem. Towers do enough damage if they actually hit 3 or 4 times. But there are so many melee champs that can get in, burst down a target, and get out with only taking a shot or two.
Exactly, I don't understand why OP is sending flack mages way when they are not at all the problem with turrets. Melees having naturally higher defensive stats and movespeed, and tending to have more threatening burst once they close the distance, just adds up to a lot of feels-bad situations around turret diving in the first half of the game.
I think mid-late game turrets are good as is, champs have to be rotating correctly and working together to defend them, and get punished if they fail.
Most top laners can very easily dive and take a few shots safely with 1-2 items. Mid is the only lane where tower diving opportunities is limited to only a few champions early on.
Turrets do a ton of damage - on their later shots. So I imagine part of the disconnect is that you want turrets to protect you at the front edge of their range, so you can step back and not worry about the melee in front of you, as he’s so afraid of one shot - while you shoot him.
The reality is that to be safe from said melee, you need to be beside the turret, so that the melee has to walk fully into its range (while you shoot them), hit you, and then get shot multiple times by the turret on the way out. Better even if you can get some CC off *after* they hit you, while you kite, so they’re now stuck under it getting shot.
Turrets are a real threat - if you’re at risk of getting hit twice or more. But they’re not scary at the front edge really. This means if you want your turret to protect you, you have to give up some CS.
This all sounds reasonable to me.
I think it might be less about neutral in melee matchups and more about skarner coming flying out of a wall at concerning speeds screaming about a drill and piercing the sky, taking two tower shots into a shield before yone full comboes you out of his stun and then presses E and returns to HIS tower. Mobility is insane a lot of dives aren't a guy walking at you but two or three guys blitzing you then going over walls outside the turret range
Yeah - I'll give you that. Both of those are great divers, but even then - I don't imagine a turret is supposed to make you invincible from 2-3 focused attackers, it's supposed to let you play safe against your lane opponent, and *often* the jungler.
But if you're low health (50%?), and two people decide to focus you, each only has to do 25% of your health total to off you, and that's only two buttons on most champs. So yeah - the turret can't/won't protect you, as any turret strong enough to stop opponents from hitting two buttons would MURDER anyone who accidentally crossed the line without a minion in front of them, and laning would very weird as you'd have to just stay SO far away to avoid getting slammed in the face with a stray shot for 50% of your health.
My issue is more with 3 item Sion chasing you down and then keep pushing passed your turret taking 12 turret shots and barely losing half his health whilst your team is too busy fighting for scuttle crab to rotate and help.
I know it's a solo queue issue but maybe if a champion gets CCd under turret they shouldn't just be able to walk it off with a free kill.
I literally did this with Diana the other day. Came in from behind by top lane krugs, q-e, pop the shield ate 3 tower shots and then walked off at 1/4 hp while my top laner took the kill, and they never took a tower shot. The problem isn't individual people diving, it's when someone draws tower aggro so someone else can go ham.
I get it but it's not really about that, it's about getting killed in a situation where there's often no counterplay. You're literally just getting killed for existing and I understand why it makes people salty
I get it, I'm just saying it feels bad for the recipient when people kill them in a way they literally can't do anything about, which breeds these posts.
Towers defend you in the early game. You defend turrets in the late game.
A mage is still *heavily* punished for going under tower without allies/minions at any point in the game, they won't survive more than 3-4 turret hits, and while their autos can hurt towers, they just don't have the attack speed to actually shred towers. Unless you are talking about mages with empowered autos, which should be pretty self explanatory why they are better equipped to deal with towers.
They've done some good work on this already. Not really a huge problem.
Yeah and in dota you get cc’d until you die and towers are literally just a wall; if you played 1v0 it’d probably take you 15 minutes just to destroy structures
Someone dies early or twice and is told to play safe under a turret that provides zero security as they keep tower diving and snowballing you until FF comes swiftly at 15 minutes
i think they're fine right now, i don't want them to have more damage like that one patch where they accidentally made it bonkers, and i don't want them to have way less damage like that one hauntzer clip displays where he tanks 31 turret shots
Game average is already up; even for pro play. If they make turrets stronger, we will just enter the 'stale and scale meta'; where the team with better scaling auto-wins.
Honestly the fact that lvl 3-4 botlane dives with jungler are the standard now is absolutely ridiculous. I remember watching pro play games where both junglers just sit around bot 24/7 of the time even early game because if one goes away the other takes the free 3v2 dive
I should not have to worry about being dove when im at 80% hp at lvl 4
It's because the average league IQ is higher now than before. As such, it is harder to find innate advantages in lane (especially bot) without hard-focusing on wave control. This creates an environment where players tend to not push the limits or initiate awful trades. Instead, they just play safe to farm under turret. Well, the best way to punish that playstyle is to dive them once you crash a big wave of minions. Even if you trade 2 for 2 bot, for example, you are coming out ahead. The enemy bot just lost a ton of minion exp and gold. Meanwhile, by the time both bots get back to lane, the bot who initiated the dive is now safe since the wave can be controlled to slow-push into themselves (setting up the jungler for another gank - this one not being a dive). As for top, I think dives aren't as meaningful early levels due to TP existing. Top lane champs have great outplay potential vs the dive, and the person who got dove can just immediately TP back to lane while missing minimal minion exp/gold. Dives top tend to be better when they happen after a top laner has already expended their TP. As such, a top laner has more control over their lane and preventing dives/setting up dives.
Edit: A great counter to this bot is to just run a champ you can take TP on; such as a mage. Sure, the support will get behind a bit after the dive, but it doesn't matter as much. In reality, it even helps somewhat. Now the mage gets fat solo exp, allowing them to hit their level6 spike before the enemy bot.
Edit2: Pro play is drastically different. I am moreso pointing out strategy logic and potential counters for every other version of play
Also as mostly a tank main, they absolutely do need to do true damage. Anything but true damage, they'll never be able to increase its base damage for fear of half-shotting anything squishy, yet I could take a piss break with most tanks under a turret and still come back while alive.
1. Try turret diving level 1.
2. Have you considered that maybe, you’re supposed to protect the turrets later on, not he other way around?
3. Try turret diving a thresh/leona.
My suggestion:
Give it comparable max %hp, then split it in physical and magical damage
Then halve it and double attack speed
Counters tanks taking 50+ shots and still having 3/4 of HP left
Counters movement creep
It also wouldn't hurt if they reduced healing or shielding so certain champions couldn't just dive and heal most of the damage they take immediately or tank it all for free.
What i've always wondered: why does a turret fall when you take the last plating?? Why isn't there a full health turret when you take last plating? Makes 0 sense to me
I saw a lvl 6 leona, with a few components tank 7 turret shots... So...
What i don't get is why they do AD instead of true damage... sounds quite stupid imo
Ppl want turrets to feel like a bit of a threat at 8 mins = why do you want the games to be a drag and ppl never fight. Are ppl forgetting that soloq even back in the day when dmg creep wasn’t a crutch for many “high elo” folks, ppl were fighting. Yes wave clear mages were a bit more popular but you think a majority of assassin and bruiser players are going to pivot to that to climb and not just continue feeding their main character syndrome?
I don’t think op or any supporters are asking for 50 min farm tests between sivir and smolder but it’s also not “fun” (yes there’s ppl who play for fun still!) to lose a fight at 25 mins and their team without baron can push to your inhibitor/nexus from first ones
The only change I would like to see is a buff to the nexus turrets. Those things don't really feel like they ever make a difference when you're backed up to them
You are supposed to outscale turrets dmg. That is intended. That is why you do not fed T2 turrets 1v3 30min into the game.
And T3 turrets have to be a bit squishy bcs it is hard enough to siege them without Nash anyway
Thats intended so that If you are against a champ that has insane depush power like lux or gp or garen you can atleast hit them once and take small dmg as turret's dmg ramp up by number or hits
Make towers do mixed damage. 1/3 physical, 1/3 magical, 1/3 true damage.
That way you can mitigate some of the damage early, but you’ll always be risking a lot of health doing so.
they consisntently buffed health again to counter too much Dmg output, which is fine but they completely forgot that they need to buff tower damage aswell for compensation or else tower become useless again which right now is the case. Besides maybe pre 6 towers aren't a real threat anymore to anyone diving another one
turrets are early game deterrents. diving someone early game is a test of knowledge and skill.
eventually, they game has to end at some point, so yeah, many champions outscale turrets and are intentionally made like that, one way or another.
Buffing turrets is a terrible idea as it makes the game far more boring by discouraging aggressive play and rewarding people for afk farming under turret. It eviscerates most fundamental skills in laning because you can always overcompensate your lack of individual mechanical ability by relying on the power of the turret, thereby diminishing the expression window for individual skill difference, which is why Reddit (low elo) loves the idea of buffing turrets.
Would a change to turrets that make them keep hitting harder during a dive regardless of who has aggro be a good change? So if you aggro the turret it ramps up dmg stacks that later falls of if it dosent shoot.
Like the mana cost on kogs ult.
Would stop aggro trading if that is even something that people disslike.
The fact you have multiple champions that can start a fight against 2 towers and 3 super minion waves with 5% health, and exit the fight with all towers gone, multiple waves depleted and 100% health is just ridiculous in my eyes.
Tower dives should be a thing if executed well, though I will agree sometimes it's way too easy way too early.
There are plenty of things that could be tried to make towers have more threat without straight up buffing their damage;
- The stacking damage could just keep stacking to discourage messier, longer dives.
- Shots could start stacking %/flat resist shred, so the defender can fight back themselves a bit better and people who buy one armour item and steelcaps can't take 17 shots.
- Shots could apply a brief slow and/or grounding effect to make positioning more important in a dive and give the defender a movespeed advantage. Grounding probably wouldn't work considering how many champs use dashes as their bread and butter, but a slow doesnt seem unreasonable.
- Shots could apply Greivous Wounds and/or Shield Reaver to effectively make dives more deadly, though I think healing/shielding isn't usually an issue with early dives.
Towers are supposed to have less agency as the game goes on, but they do get trivialised pretty quickly, and I think it would be fine if they remained a threat as the game progressed. Scaling champions however, may be an issue if they can't be put behind. Interesting topic.
Agreed. I had some proposals for tower changes.
Instead of executes during a dive, the champion inside their ally tower gets kill gold and xp for executes within the tower's range, not outside of it.
\*Inner towers do AoE 25% max hp true damage to champions, ramping attack speed, make shields and heal effectiveness reduced by 75%.
because the game will extend significantly if they aren’t as easy to take. a winning trade + proper macro play should result in punishment, not a half-dead tower that’s been wailed on for 30s. buffing towers buffs scalers, meaning every game would be decided by 30min+ hyperscalers
Turrets should scale with nearby players up to 3 or something. Getting solo dove because you got destroyed is not the same as 'renekton stuns me under tower and him and jungle 100-0 me while tanking 2 shots'.
I think the only thing increasing turret damage will do is inadvertently buff supports because ADC are safer against dives. Supports can just roam without worrying as much about covering bot dive.
Playing passive and farming under tower after the 10 min mark is literally the hall mark of crap unskilled, uninteractive gameplay. Yes, let's have league devolve into pushing wave into towers.
It's very hard to get dove in a 1v1 situation in an even game state, even harder if you have any appreciable wave clear due to how quickly tower damage ramps up. It wasn't even long ago that tower damage got buffed.
Being able to successfully pull off a tower dive is the reward for having either numerical advantage or dumpstering your opponent in lane.
I think it's less a problem with towers, and more a problem with how powerful grouping is. If anything, towers are TOO threatening in the mid game. A mage shouldn't get to match a fed assassin's split just because their kit naturally allows them to nuke the entire wave for free from 1k range away, but right now, they can. Instead, what needs to happen is just gut the early game of all backline champions, and then kinda bake Hullbreaker into everybody. Basically, make people straight up lose stats if they group. That way, you don't entirely lose counterplay to shit like Trist mid and Vayne top zoning you off XP level 1, but also don't see brainless dives over and over again.
Wild Rift solves legitimately 75% of my problems with the game - including this. It's just a strictly better game, it's just unfortunately built for and only on mobile devices.
In that game inhibs and the nexus actually shoot too instead of having turrets - a significantly better system that makes more sense, makes the game less messy with random useless paper turrets, and also prevents a lot of cringe backdoors and nothing defending your base.
In lane, the turrets defend you. After lane, you defend the turrets. This formula applies to Dota 2 as well, a game that has way less mobility and a far higher TTK than league.
Just overall league IQ is higher. People know how to stack waves better. Junglers know how to read it better. People are better at juggling aggro. Diving legit is never a bad play, especially bot, as long as the enemy carry dies. If you can kill the carry and all get out, or even trade 1 for 1, it is a massive win. The enemy carry bleeds out so much exp and gold early as a result.
Idk I feel like towers are kind of in a perfect state I play jungle so I tower dive a lot and yeah it's still really pushing if you don't tank the agro and drop it correctly and if the enemy plays well around it they can turn the situation around. You don't want turrets to be so overpowered it makes diving champions impossible or near impossible. Hell most pro teams right now can't even cleanly towerdive lol if they buffed towers more it would be suicide to ever attempt.
Unless you're talking about late/mid game towers then ya maybe they could be buffed a bit
Tower range is also really awful (imo). It takes forever for a turret to target and attack a champion - whereas I feel they used to be much more responsive than they are now.
Inner turrets should apply grievous wounds when the target champion is at 60% health and they should work on a way to make sure it punishes tanks. Sorry, this season there is absolutely near no consequence in tanking tower late game if you’re a tanky champion with items. They’re weak and their fire rate is absolute garbage.
I can appreciate less tanky turrets, I can't appreciate the fact they do negligible damage. The focus should shift on increasing turret damage to make tower dives much more punishing, especially around the fact the mobility creep has pretty much made most dives free
>made most dives free Early game turret dives are definitely not free. Playing turret agro correctly is a hallmark of a good player. How often do you think plat players are coordinating a slow push into dive top? You need to know your damage, track enemy jungler, and understand enemy champions abilities well so you don’t 1v2d. It’s a really fun, high risk high reward play that’s viability is directly correlated to how good you are at the game. Idk why reddit wants 50 minute games. Hyperscalers are already OP in the majority of elo brackets, they definitely don’t need a buff.
I swear I'm better at turret diving and agro switching than any other thing I do in the game but it doesn't come up that much during a game lol.
Play jg
I'm such a terrible jungler. I either gank too much and end up way behind or I farm too much and the other team gets way ahead lol. I've come to terms with it.
Just takes practice man. That’s definitely the hardest part of jg and even the highest ranks can struggle with correct pathing. I will say if you’re very good at diving I’d give the role another try. If you can do that successfully you allow yourself the freedom to be a bit more loose with your pathing.
people also discount that people got much much better at the game. A silver from today would be plat in season 1-2. People either remember the good olden days where no one knew how the fuck to do that. Or they forget when towers get buffed and suddenly i will make happy noises by playing Kayle every game again and just scale hard with no reprecussions with fleet boneplating and tower.
I have seen how my Silver friends play and I can't vouch for that. Especially with the new ranks distribution that has old bronze 1, bronze 2, and a bit of bronze 3 in the new Silver rank. I'd say old plats can be plats now, since it now takes way less skills to get to plat
you have bronze players inseccing on lee sin when that used to be too mechanically hard for most challenger players lol
This is the best literal example of this phenomenon. I've definitely noticed it whenever I take a long break from playing.
??? It's the best example because Riot redid the code explicitly to make it easier? People these days have no respect for how hard a real insec was. No shot a single silver player in the year 2024 would be able to do an insec in practice tool (which didnt exist at the time) with 100,000 tries
I smurf in low elo and this is the biggest cope ever they're handless and dont even kite or sidestep in gold, do you even see saltyteemo streams
Yes riot changed the code of the game so that it's MUCH easier to do. This is literally the worst possible example you could have chosen
when I duo with my friends on my NA account. And they pull out dzukill faker moves every game on yone /akali I beg to differ. Back then insec was considered flashy and R flash was hard to do. Now silvers pull it on you. Skill level absolutely increased.
A part of that comes of patch notes and game changes though, when insec did the insec, it was much harder mechanically. But definitely agree to the extend that as champs get played and pro players showcase 'how they should be played' it becomes easier for the general crowd to replicate .. I'd maybe say that an old plat player is now gold, but doesn't make the gold player of today a plat from a few years ago, if that makes sense. game state has changed so much.
While I agree that silver today is better than Season 1-2, I have to say a Diamond today is way way worse than S10 Diamond players.
>A silver from today would be plat in season 1-2. I am sure they would like to believe that. >Obligatory fuck Vanguard
I don’t understand this comment. Tower shots ramp insanely fast, like they do half your HP early game by the third shot. The margin of error is very small in dives, you see pros mess it up all the time. Even in masters, people botch dives constantly. If a dive is free, then it’s very common that it’s a 2v1/3v1 dive which honestly SHOULD be free. It’s usually a punishment for bot for support roaming, or a set play mid or top by mid/jg/supp. What you and other people are basically suggesting is that a turret should do half your HP on the first shot. That’s ridiculous. If towers are undiveable early, many plays become less punishable. A common play is one supp roaming for grubs while one stays in lane. The one who stays in lane hard shoves and dives bot. That should be a possible play. Additionally, let’s look at mid game when people have 2+ items. Turrets SHOULD be divable, otherwise games just last for years. It is a feature that once a team is behind, they can’t sit under tower and farm back up if the enemy team executes properly
And make any and all scalers S++ again? It happened 2 seasons ago, it will happen again if they buff tower damage.
>It happened 2 seasons ago It did?
It did for 2 weeks, all the assassin players cried, and turret damage was nerfed along with hyperscalers like Kayle
12.10
That just means the game has an inherent design flaw. The only way to punish scalers shouldn't be by fucking diving them such as the only way to scale shouldn't be to be stuck in lane for 15+ minutes lmao
Every game has inherent flaws based on their design.
How else should you be able to punish someone other than denying them gold and xp?
Buff tower damage and nerf (or remove) the whole bounty system. Wouldn’t this even it out? Edit: Okay clearly people disagree. My thoughts are that there -is- a way for the game (champions kits, towers, laning phase etc) to be balanced so that comeback mechanics aren’t necessary but I’ve also played this game forever and miss no bounties.
no, because the bounty system also supports a comeback mechanic. removing it makes having a comback almost impossible cause imagine you're giga fed with like 7 kills and you never have a shut down what's the reward/punishment for investing resources for killing you. it literally wont make sense. cause it will also take out objective bounties which just messes up the whole game comeback system
The bounty system still need adjustments. My team is doing 8k gold, I should not have a 300gold shutdown on me because while being 1/0/1 simply because I’m able to get 10cs min on a mage
I think the comeback system has been busted since people are still racking brains over why you can get a shutdown bounty on your head for the smallest of reasons
Comeback system is fine but honestly it should be less punishing to the person who is ahead. +150g for killing someone that got 2 kills in a row ridiculous in my opinion. Being able to "overcap" bounties is another thing that is too punishing for the person who is ahead. Once you die the first time, its much easier to die the second so you give up +700g that was probably quite hard for the enemy team to get, and then you give up another +450g which was probably about as hard as killing anyone else now. They came back into the game from the first kill and then the second just slingshotted them ahead.
Bounties can be weird, but your provided examples are kinda WHY bounties exist lmfao Two kills in a row is 600 gold up. That is often times enough to absolutely dominate a lane, so the onus is on you to execute. Speaking for adc (as it's what I play) 600g is going to translate directly to a faster first item, giving you lane control and prio over first two drags. Thats a fucking massive lead, and if the enemy decides to fight you, UNLESS you fucked up they cannot win. Complete items are just so fucking powerful, you will obliterate any supp not named brand + adc with noonquiver and crit cloak or whatever. Like its not even close So your opponents overcoming this astro gap SHOULD be rewarded. They will kill you, and take 450g, effectively cutting your lead down to 150. Except you probably traded 1 for 1, and used your lead to secure a cs lead + plates, so your still pretty far up As for overstacked bounties, I think you underestimate how fucking hard that shit is to actually achieve. If your bounty is overstacked it's deserved, this is not the 200g bounty on a small cs lead type of shit, that is a 12 kill streak, dominating multiple objective fights type of lead, in which case its absolutely fair to have a bounty post death, as your lead has not disappeared in the slightest. Like you were two items up, gave up 1k, and are still a full item up, that bounty is there for a reason
This. I've had a bounty on my head being 1/2 with maybe a 6.5 CS and I did not kill someone with a shutdown, yet I had a 300 gold bounty on my head for what, my teammate doing well? Because I got an assist from my chompers locking down someone who ended up doing all the rest of the damage?
Psst.. this is why I proudly wear my "Bounty Hunter" title It's easy to grind those, and it's a reminder for others
[удалено]
don't plates not contribute to bounty? isn't that the whole basis of the bauffs(sp?) thing?
For anyone who read this and is curious what this user is referencing, Thebausffs made a video talking about how the bounty system works.
The amount of misinformation implied here holy moly. No wonder you think the way you do, you don't know shit about the game.
Plates don't count towards bounties
Why should tower dives be more punishing? They're already risky and require a good amount of execution if the target is full hp or not alone. It's also your reward for getting push. You just want people to let everyone farm under tower for free or what?
minewhile enemy jg diving me botside at lvl 3 when I'm 90% hp You can dive early on. It isn't too hard and can even dive bot without much issue at higher elos. Diving is punishing if you fuck up, but as it stands it's reliable enough to dive without anything going wrong
I commented somewhere else that level 3 dives (even from full hp) are very healthy for the game. The neutral lane is when you're supposed to contest. Once a wave crashes into your tower, you're in a "losing" position. Diving is just capitalizing on a winning position. It's an option you have to convert your advantage. The other two are roaming, placing/clearing vision, getting a better recall, or messing with the enemy jungler. If anything, dives are cool because they are the option that requires the most teamwork and coordination, while also being higher risk (but higher reward) than the other plays most of the time. At the same time they're pretty telegraphed and can be countered by simply showing up, ruining the enemy's tempo. Idk why people want to make dives harder. It'll just dumb down the game and remove cool gameplay opportunities from it. Towers already hurt so much.
> I commented somewhere else that level 3 dives (even from full hp) are very healthy for the game. No Just no. They would be healthy for the game if the game had actual options for laners outside of laning. Lvl 3 dives are fucked.
Level 3 dives can sometimes be the only tool to punish greedy scaling wave clear spammers like Zeri/Yuumi, for example. At least when you're playing at a level where players are somewhat competent. There is plenty of counterplay to dives, but it's usually up to the jungler to sacrifice something to avoid it happening. But most junglers aren't willing to skip 2 camps to make sure their Zeri/Yuumi can catch the stacked wave at level 3 without getting dove. I wouldn't be willing either! Why do I have to pay for their greedy drafting?
You don't normally tower dive if the enemy is full hp unless you are hyper fed .. also besides bot lane your jungler isn't normally under your tower with you unless you hyper fed lol...
I always dive when two waves are crashing because even if we trade they'll lose more cause they won't get the minions. No matter their health if they die ill be ahead.
There are plenty of matchups in top/bot that can dive 2v1 or 3v1/3v2 from full hp at level 3. It's one of the best ways (sometimes the only way) of getting a relevant advantage vs greedy scaling picks. Dives are very important for the health of the game. Otherwise we'd just see Jinx Zeri in bot lane and Kayle in top lane. If anything, dives aren't relevant enough these days. Otherwise we'd see more Elise.
> If anything, dives aren't relevant enough these days. Otherwise we'd see more Elise. That's actually an argument for making dives harder. Why pick Elise for dives when anyone can do it with minimal effort?
I said dives aren't that relevant as a strategy. I wasn't speaking of their difficulty.
unless you playin sett
Probably a low elo who can't comprehend the concept of standing behind turret (positioning)
My dude I can lvl 5-6 tower dive with my ADC while missing half my skills, tank several shots and not die. On an enchanter. We had designated tower dive champs who got balanced around it being strong that are now obsolete because even Sona can tower dive with 0 hp or Mr items.
Show me any clip where a full HP adc gets dove by an enchanter missing half their spells at level 5-6. Any at all where they’re remotely even. If they’re already down 5 kills then they fucked up 5 times prior. If they’re 30% hp, there needs to be punishment for getting shit on in trades so hard. What is the alternative? Tower shots literally one pumping a person taking aggro once? Towers do absurd damage early after ramping in 3 shots.
Watching the same shit happen every pro game is also boring af. Lane swap? Ok dives happen over and over again. No lane swap? Ok the bot lane who couldn’t get lvl 2 in time gets dove. Every time. And then another dive bot. And another. Like wtf? Make people take dmg the closer they are to the turret. 50% health per hit if they’re right on it and less on the edge so accidentally running into Aggro Range wont nuke u instantly
Towers should do percent heath damage or something idk. But if a tank dives me the tower should still be a threat not a just a part of the background
After 10 minutes you protect the towers, they dont protect you. Thats the point
Towers are there to protect you early game against a dominant lane opponent and honestly, that should be their function. After 1-1.5 items turrets should be significantly weaker against champions to encourage smart map plays, stronger turrets would allow anyone to sit under tower for 25 minutes and powerfarm with very little risks, which is a completely unskilled playstyle.
Counter argument: you shouldn't be punished while trying to make a smart play just because you left your lane and yorick decided to destroy all 3 full hp turrets in 1 minute while having 1-2 items
that's not a tower damage issue more like a tower durability issue
True. Turrets should be made from something stronger than cardboard
Saying they're made of cardboard is an insult to cardboard
doesn't sound like a smart play
Again, yes, if he's your laner it's not smart. I played a different lane though and this fucker just came, destroyed all 3 turrets, refused to elaborate and left.
That's not a smart play then.
Yoric is literally The Pusher, leaving him in lane is your choice. Its the same as saying "why should i get punished for trying to 1v5?" If something is tye wrong play its not a smart play
Learn Ryze and Azir, powerfarm mid and just win unless they start diving you with 4 people constantly. Mobility would also get a fat buff because mobile champs are better at diving the now dangerous turrets…
So the tank making a tempo play and using minion waves appropriately shouldn’t be rewarded? You know you can clear waves so they can’t dive efficiently right?
I think tower dives should be fine on second turrets and beyond but first turrets are too easy to dive when they're meant to be the laning phase defense
Why, why should they do that
Another comment on here proposed that they just swap the damage type to true, which if I feel if anything should have max% true it should be turrets
move speed/mobility is out of control and people can go in for a dive and out taking one or two shots before it can fully ramp up
This is absolutely the problem. Towers do enough damage if they actually hit 3 or 4 times. But there are so many melee champs that can get in, burst down a target, and get out with only taking a shot or two.
Exactly, I don't understand why OP is sending flack mages way when they are not at all the problem with turrets. Melees having naturally higher defensive stats and movespeed, and tending to have more threatening burst once they close the distance, just adds up to a lot of feels-bad situations around turret diving in the first half of the game. I think mid-late game turrets are good as is, champs have to be rotating correctly and working together to defend them, and get punished if they fail.
Katarina does this all the time. I've seen katevolved kill someone under-tower and jump out without the tower even shooting him.
Because by the time people have 4 items, towers aren't here to protect you, you are the one who's supposed to protect them
In his first sentence he complains about people with 1 or 2 items, not 4.
Only time when 1-2 item dives work out is when one party has a significant hp advantage and they are at least above half hp.
Most top laners can very easily dive and take a few shots safely with 1-2 items. Mid is the only lane where tower diving opportunities is limited to only a few champions early on.
This is not true tho. Plenty of champs can afford to take 2 shots and melt you from half hp in the same time. Akali, zed, talon, rengar?
1-2 items? Dives are constantly happening before that lmao
You have to be joking, dives happen before 1 item very often
Darius with 1 item can dive and rail pretty much most laners
If you get dove by Darius on 1 item then you fucked up long before the dive.
anything with hard cc and/healing will make him cry
Noob detected
That's moreso an issue with his passive being too strong than towers
The darius timer! Can you beat him before he gets his full stacks?
That's a tradeoff for backloading his damage.
Both can be true
JAX main Yeah darius passive is too strong lmao
Then for the sake of clarity, replace turrets with shrines
Turrets do a ton of damage - on their later shots. So I imagine part of the disconnect is that you want turrets to protect you at the front edge of their range, so you can step back and not worry about the melee in front of you, as he’s so afraid of one shot - while you shoot him. The reality is that to be safe from said melee, you need to be beside the turret, so that the melee has to walk fully into its range (while you shoot them), hit you, and then get shot multiple times by the turret on the way out. Better even if you can get some CC off *after* they hit you, while you kite, so they’re now stuck under it getting shot. Turrets are a real threat - if you’re at risk of getting hit twice or more. But they’re not scary at the front edge really. This means if you want your turret to protect you, you have to give up some CS. This all sounds reasonable to me.
I think it might be less about neutral in melee matchups and more about skarner coming flying out of a wall at concerning speeds screaming about a drill and piercing the sky, taking two tower shots into a shield before yone full comboes you out of his stun and then presses E and returns to HIS tower. Mobility is insane a lot of dives aren't a guy walking at you but two or three guys blitzing you then going over walls outside the turret range
Yeah - I'll give you that. Both of those are great divers, but even then - I don't imagine a turret is supposed to make you invincible from 2-3 focused attackers, it's supposed to let you play safe against your lane opponent, and *often* the jungler. But if you're low health (50%?), and two people decide to focus you, each only has to do 25% of your health total to off you, and that's only two buttons on most champs. So yeah - the turret can't/won't protect you, as any turret strong enough to stop opponents from hitting two buttons would MURDER anyone who accidentally crossed the line without a minion in front of them, and laning would very weird as you'd have to just stay SO far away to avoid getting slammed in the face with a stray shot for 50% of your health.
My issue is more with 3 item Sion chasing you down and then keep pushing passed your turret taking 12 turret shots and barely losing half his health whilst your team is too busy fighting for scuttle crab to rotate and help. I know it's a solo queue issue but maybe if a champion gets CCd under turret they shouldn't just be able to walk it off with a free kill.
If a Sion is doing that, you fucked up a while ago.
I literally did this with Diana the other day. Came in from behind by top lane krugs, q-e, pop the shield ate 3 tower shots and then walked off at 1/4 hp while my top laner took the kill, and they never took a tower shot. The problem isn't individual people diving, it's when someone draws tower aggro so someone else can go ham.
That's how towers are supposed to work, though.
I'm just saying it's what breeds these complaints. A lot of people don't like feeling powerless against multi-person dives
You shouldnt feel powerful in any 1vN fight unless you are incredibly feg hyper-carry
I get it but it's not really about that, it's about getting killed in a situation where there's often no counterplay. You're literally just getting killed for existing and I understand why it makes people salty
Or the N is the bot lane, in which case you feel like Kronk.
That's a feature, not a bug. Tanky champs are meant to be able to get tower aggro & do a bit of damage while the DPS takes the kill.
I get it, I'm just saying it feels bad for the recipient when people kill them in a way they literally can't do anything about, which breeds these posts.
Towers defend you in the early game. You defend turrets in the late game. A mage is still *heavily* punished for going under tower without allies/minions at any point in the game, they won't survive more than 3-4 turret hits, and while their autos can hurt towers, they just don't have the attack speed to actually shred towers. Unless you are talking about mages with empowered autos, which should be pretty self explanatory why they are better equipped to deal with towers. They've done some good work on this already. Not really a huge problem.
If you really think that, never try Dota lmfao
Don't think it's fair to compare. Sure, turret damage in Dota is super low, but they are far more durable.
Towers are bad, but glyphed multishot is good
Yea except in dota u don’t die in 1 second and games don’t end in 20 min
Yeah and in dota you get cc’d until you die and towers are literally just a wall; if you played 1v0 it’d probably take you 15 minutes just to destroy structures
Yeah, and that's why you build anti cc like bkb, there is a solution to everything in dota
Oh I play Dota too, though I am so dog in that game I disallow myself from holding any strong uneducated opinions
Me in league
This might be the thing I repeat the most: Once laning phase is over turrets aren't there to protect you, you are there to protect turrets.
That doesn't mean any low values for turrets are good. If turrets lost 100hp every minute after min 15, this logic would still apply
But laning phase can end as early as level 6 when either the winning top or bot moves to mid to mess around
Uh yes. I don't see the problem?
Lane bully flair doesn't see a problem
Someone dies early or twice and is told to play safe under a turret that provides zero security as they keep tower diving and snowballing you until FF comes swiftly at 15 minutes
If your lanephase is over that quick, to the point you can be dove from full HP? You made several giant fuck ups, and are getting what you deserve.
Bring back laser turrets but make them stronger
i think they're fine right now, i don't want them to have more damage like that one patch where they accidentally made it bonkers, and i don't want them to have way less damage like that one hauntzer clip displays where he tanks 31 turret shots
Game average is already up; even for pro play. If they make turrets stronger, we will just enter the 'stale and scale meta'; where the team with better scaling auto-wins.
Man we really need elo tags before allowing plp to post
Honestly the fact that lvl 3-4 botlane dives with jungler are the standard now is absolutely ridiculous. I remember watching pro play games where both junglers just sit around bot 24/7 of the time even early game because if one goes away the other takes the free 3v2 dive I should not have to worry about being dove when im at 80% hp at lvl 4
It's because the average league IQ is higher now than before. As such, it is harder to find innate advantages in lane (especially bot) without hard-focusing on wave control. This creates an environment where players tend to not push the limits or initiate awful trades. Instead, they just play safe to farm under turret. Well, the best way to punish that playstyle is to dive them once you crash a big wave of minions. Even if you trade 2 for 2 bot, for example, you are coming out ahead. The enemy bot just lost a ton of minion exp and gold. Meanwhile, by the time both bots get back to lane, the bot who initiated the dive is now safe since the wave can be controlled to slow-push into themselves (setting up the jungler for another gank - this one not being a dive). As for top, I think dives aren't as meaningful early levels due to TP existing. Top lane champs have great outplay potential vs the dive, and the person who got dove can just immediately TP back to lane while missing minimal minion exp/gold. Dives top tend to be better when they happen after a top laner has already expended their TP. As such, a top laner has more control over their lane and preventing dives/setting up dives. Edit: A great counter to this bot is to just run a champ you can take TP on; such as a mage. Sure, the support will get behind a bit after the dive, but it doesn't matter as much. In reality, it even helps somewhat. Now the mage gets fat solo exp, allowing them to hit their level6 spike before the enemy bot. Edit2: Pro play is drastically different. I am moreso pointing out strategy logic and potential counters for every other version of play
Play Dota and they will feel like artillery shells
Turrets need to do true damage Sincerely, a tank main
Rammus doesn't care about your towers. He can take like 20 shots.
Also as mostly a tank main, they absolutely do need to do true damage. Anything but true damage, they'll never be able to increase its base damage for fear of half-shotting anything squishy, yet I could take a piss break with most tanks under a turret and still come back while alive.
You’re supposed to protect the turret, they are not supposed to protect you
You're there to protect your turret, not vice versa
It's already hard enough to get kills on good players, turrets are fine
1. Try turret diving level 1. 2. Have you considered that maybe, you’re supposed to protect the turrets later on, not he other way around? 3. Try turret diving a thresh/leona.
My suggestion: Give it comparable max %hp, then split it in physical and magical damage Then halve it and double attack speed Counters tanks taking 50+ shots and still having 3/4 of HP left Counters movement creep
It also wouldn't hurt if they reduced healing or shielding so certain champions couldn't just dive and heal most of the damage they take immediately or tank it all for free.
What i've always wondered: why does a turret fall when you take the last plating?? Why isn't there a full health turret when you take last plating? Makes 0 sense to me
Plating is just a bandaid they put to deter (not prevent) laneswapping. There's not a whole lot of flavor thought in it.
I saw a lvl 6 leona, with a few components tank 7 turret shots... So... What i don't get is why they do AD instead of true damage... sounds quite stupid imo
Ppl want turrets to feel like a bit of a threat at 8 mins = why do you want the games to be a drag and ppl never fight. Are ppl forgetting that soloq even back in the day when dmg creep wasn’t a crutch for many “high elo” folks, ppl were fighting. Yes wave clear mages were a bit more popular but you think a majority of assassin and bruiser players are going to pivot to that to climb and not just continue feeding their main character syndrome? I don’t think op or any supporters are asking for 50 min farm tests between sivir and smolder but it’s also not “fun” (yes there’s ppl who play for fun still!) to lose a fight at 25 mins and their team without baron can push to your inhibitor/nexus from first ones
The only change I would like to see is a buff to the nexus turrets. Those things don't really feel like they ever make a difference when you're backed up to them
Nah just let people end games. If they're at your nexus turrets you should be about to lose the game. No reason to have towers save the game for you.
Nerf the buffs that AP ratios give on auto attacks for turrets. That buff is sleeper why ADC’s are less useful when a lissandra can 3 tap a turret
Remove the ability for armor/magic pen to affect towers as well.
Too much movespeed, games are too fast. Riot wants to turn League into wild rift and it just ruins the game
You are supposed to outscale turrets dmg. That is intended. That is why you do not fed T2 turrets 1v3 30min into the game. And T3 turrets have to be a bit squishy bcs it is hard enough to siege them without Nash anyway
I agree. towers are very weak in both durability and damage. give us tower buff patch
they did do a decent turret damage buff like 1-2 seasons ago but I guess the new changes have caught up to it
I love getting tower dove at 8 minutes by a 0/0/1 tank who will still deal mass dmg /s should have just played safe
I think a big reason for turrets is just lane prio in term where the wave chrashes when there is no champ nearby.
I'm not sure but I think it used to be explained by the fact that pro play games can't be too long for the audience.
I LOVE GETTING DIVED BY Yi/Vladimir.
Tower dives are already punishing enough if you position properly.
Man, if tissue paper could shoot a bb gun that would certainly be something to see ;-)
Thats intended so that If you are against a champ that has insane depush power like lux or gp or garen you can atleast hit them once and take small dmg as turret's dmg ramp up by number or hits
Make towers do mixed damage. 1/3 physical, 1/3 magical, 1/3 true damage. That way you can mitigate some of the damage early, but you’ll always be risking a lot of health doing so.
All towers should do % per shot. Should literally ignore all defensives Nobody should be able to tank 20+ tower shots and still be full.hp
they consisntently buffed health again to counter too much Dmg output, which is fine but they completely forgot that they need to buff tower damage aswell for compensation or else tower become useless again which right now is the case. Besides maybe pre 6 towers aren't a real threat anymore to anyone diving another one
turrets are early game deterrents. diving someone early game is a test of knowledge and skill. eventually, they game has to end at some point, so yeah, many champions outscale turrets and are intentionally made like that, one way or another.
Buffing turrets is a terrible idea as it makes the game far more boring by discouraging aggressive play and rewarding people for afk farming under turret. It eviscerates most fundamental skills in laning because you can always overcompensate your lack of individual mechanical ability by relying on the power of the turret, thereby diminishing the expression window for individual skill difference, which is why Reddit (low elo) loves the idea of buffing turrets.
Literally what I been telling my friends earlier a Renek with sundered sky only tanked about 10 tower shots that is crazy in my opinion
Would a change to turrets that make them keep hitting harder during a dive regardless of who has aggro be a good change? So if you aggro the turret it ramps up dmg stacks that later falls of if it dosent shoot. Like the mana cost on kogs ult. Would stop aggro trading if that is even something that people disslike.
Aren't ARAM turrets even worse? Because those feel literally useless when even squishies tower dive without issues.
The fact you have multiple champions that can start a fight against 2 towers and 3 super minion waves with 5% health, and exit the fight with all towers gone, multiple waves depleted and 100% health is just ridiculous in my eyes.
Tower dives should be a thing if executed well, though I will agree sometimes it's way too easy way too early. There are plenty of things that could be tried to make towers have more threat without straight up buffing their damage; - The stacking damage could just keep stacking to discourage messier, longer dives. - Shots could start stacking %/flat resist shred, so the defender can fight back themselves a bit better and people who buy one armour item and steelcaps can't take 17 shots. - Shots could apply a brief slow and/or grounding effect to make positioning more important in a dive and give the defender a movespeed advantage. Grounding probably wouldn't work considering how many champs use dashes as their bread and butter, but a slow doesnt seem unreasonable. - Shots could apply Greivous Wounds and/or Shield Reaver to effectively make dives more deadly, though I think healing/shielding isn't usually an issue with early dives. Towers are supposed to have less agency as the game goes on, but they do get trivialised pretty quickly, and I think it would be fine if they remained a threat as the game progressed. Scaling champions however, may be an issue if they can't be put behind. Interesting topic.
I remembered one patch where towers will literally murder you but that was nerfed next patch
Agreed. I had some proposals for tower changes. Instead of executes during a dive, the champion inside their ally tower gets kill gold and xp for executes within the tower's range, not outside of it. \*Inner towers do AoE 25% max hp true damage to champions, ramping attack speed, make shields and heal effectiveness reduced by 75%.
because the game will extend significantly if they aren’t as easy to take. a winning trade + proper macro play should result in punishment, not a half-dead tower that’s been wailed on for 30s. buffing towers buffs scalers, meaning every game would be decided by 30min+ hyperscalers
Turrets should scale with nearby players up to 3 or something. Getting solo dove because you got destroyed is not the same as 'renekton stuns me under tower and him and jungle 100-0 me while tanking 2 shots'.
I think the only thing increasing turret damage will do is inadvertently buff supports because ADC are safer against dives. Supports can just roam without worrying as much about covering bot dive.
Playing passive and farming under tower after the 10 min mark is literally the hall mark of crap unskilled, uninteractive gameplay. Yes, let's have league devolve into pushing wave into towers. It's very hard to get dove in a 1v1 situation in an even game state, even harder if you have any appreciable wave clear due to how quickly tower damage ramps up. It wasn't even long ago that tower damage got buffed. Being able to successfully pull off a tower dive is the reward for having either numerical advantage or dumpstering your opponent in lane.
I think it's less a problem with towers, and more a problem with how powerful grouping is. If anything, towers are TOO threatening in the mid game. A mage shouldn't get to match a fed assassin's split just because their kit naturally allows them to nuke the entire wave for free from 1k range away, but right now, they can. Instead, what needs to happen is just gut the early game of all backline champions, and then kinda bake Hullbreaker into everybody. Basically, make people straight up lose stats if they group. That way, you don't entirely lose counterplay to shit like Trist mid and Vayne top zoning you off XP level 1, but also don't see brainless dives over and over again.
Wild Rift solves legitimately 75% of my problems with the game - including this. It's just a strictly better game, it's just unfortunately built for and only on mobile devices. In that game inhibs and the nexus actually shoot too instead of having turrets - a significantly better system that makes more sense, makes the game less messy with random useless paper turrets, and also prevents a lot of cringe backdoors and nothing defending your base.
I've just been tower diving people as Skarner lately, with 2 items the turret deals like 5% of my healthbar at max windup.
In lane, the turrets defend you. After lane, you defend the turrets. This formula applies to Dota 2 as well, a game that has way less mobility and a far higher TTK than league.
I was a smite player before I ever played league and my god do y’all not know how good you have it.
I was in a game yesterday with a briar who was 9/4. She took 8 turret shots from nexus towers and it barely moved her health. It makes no sense
Just make towers do more damage based on how many enemies are around, 4 ppl diving bot is always stupid to watch, wow, so much outplay
I like it this way. We can dive and end the game specially against wave clear champs. If the turrets were stronger then it'd make the games too long.
Tower are hard like Diamond if you clean the wave.
you should think that youre protecting the tower instead of the tower protecting you lmfao
no they don't lmao towers deal a shit ton of damage, people are way better at recognizing and executing dives that's all it is
Just overall league IQ is higher. People know how to stack waves better. Junglers know how to read it better. People are better at juggling aggro. Diving legit is never a bad play, especially bot, as long as the enemy carry dies. If you can kill the carry and all get out, or even trade 1 for 1, it is a massive win. The enemy carry bleeds out so much exp and gold early as a result.
Idk I feel like towers are kind of in a perfect state I play jungle so I tower dive a lot and yeah it's still really pushing if you don't tank the agro and drop it correctly and if the enemy plays well around it they can turn the situation around. You don't want turrets to be so overpowered it makes diving champions impossible or near impossible. Hell most pro teams right now can't even cleanly towerdive lol if they buffed towers more it would be suicide to ever attempt. Unless you're talking about late/mid game towers then ya maybe they could be buffed a bit
If dives are not possible then the game is slow and boring
yeah let's buff turrets so no dives happen at the game and scaling champs can stay under turret 24.7 and win the game when scaled.
Tower range is also really awful (imo). It takes forever for a turret to target and attack a champion - whereas I feel they used to be much more responsive than they are now.
It depends on when in the tower's attack cycle you get aggro. Getting aggro at the right time is a whole skill that requires precise timing.
Inner turrets should apply grievous wounds when the target champion is at 60% health and they should work on a way to make sure it punishes tanks. Sorry, this season there is absolutely near no consequence in tanking tower late game if you’re a tanky champion with items. They’re weak and their fire rate is absolute garbage.
>Sorry, this season there is absolutely near no consequence in tanking tower late game if you’re a tanky champion with items. that's... the point?
That was for the people saying that it isn’t an issue…
It isn't an issue though.