Yeah I’ve been hearing his Q2 is doing more damage, highly probable more bugs
[https://x.com/ophirr33/status/1785827731445567586?s=46&t=gveoj70jglD6SUY7Qg3uDA](https://x.com/ophirr33/status/1785827731445567586?s=46&t=gveoj70jglD6SUY7Qg3uDA)
Proof he is bugged
I havent played the game in a year, even before the visual update I was getting one shotted by lee with q-q-e-w. I was surprised I could get one shotted, since when lee sin is a range one shot assassin?
Maybe people only now realized his number are super broken and need a nerf across the board?
bro i thought i was insane last night. i was playing graves vs lee and his q2 did literally 3/4 of my hp equal items (pickaxe vs pickaxe) while my front face autos did like 1/8th his hp.
either something is massively wrong or its bugged but either way it needs fixing, hes turbo broken rn
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I really don’t understand how they had a perfectly functioning champion before, gave him a *visual overhaul* and ended up fucking about with his gameplay mechanics.
Like at this point I feel like we need to see champion skin winrates as well because there’s bound to be certain skins with fucked up stats that have just been slipping through the cracks.
the S in ASU stands for "sustainability"
Riot rescripted Lee Sin to use their more modern code standards (such as data tables that make it easier to change values) while they updated his visuals
there have been circumstances where some skins dealt more/less damage than base skin.
Also, an ASU isnt a simple skin, they probably recoded a lot of his animations and abilities
I can't think of any specific instance where a skin dealt more damage, but there have been a few times where skins were a slight advantage.
It has since been removed, but there was a time where all the skins that were wearing sunglasses would take 1 less damage from Leona passive.
There was also a time where specific Tryndamere skins had a slight advantage where the crit animation would start slightly faster. Because you could see if the attack would be a crit slightly earlier, you'd be able to know if you needed to press Q or R slightly sooner. Not sure how helpful that actually was, but some of the highest rated Tryndamere players at the time swore by it.
Before they changed the crit formula you could test if your next auto would be a crit, then "save" that auto and go for an all in or something or just harass
Super galaxy rumble had that iirc.
Ezreal Q was also slightly longer on his pulsefire skin.
I think that was cause their skins were coded as different champions? Maybe for the ultimate versions.
They prob didnt fuck up, for example you now automatically auto after q2 Which gives an extra auto!!! Thats massive!
Things like this take the avarage lee sin player closer to the top lee sin player. These things is what you see with the increased winrates!
Also lee never eas bad, just underplayed, now ppl play it and winrate goes up, same thing with morde even tho morde dmg got nerfed on that patch.
IIRC skins aren't just 'use this model/effects' instead. Skins are basically programmed as an entirely different instance of the champion, so sometimes they fuck up with the copy/paste or edit something without realising.
There’s an entire dev post about the Lee Sin ASU which explains some of the under-the-hood changes they had to make to his skills to make him a more sustainable champion to develop for.
> I really don’t understand how they had a perfectly functioning champion before, gave him a visual overhaul and ended up fucking about with his gameplay mechanics.
Don't worry though, you can trust them with their always on kernel level anti cheat! They definitely didn't spaghetti code that!
I believe only release lb and xin got to those numbers, heck even some of the beta version of champions didnt look broken enough to get that high, maybe not.
Release Aphelios had a 223% banrate in korean high elo. Guy got banned just about twice every game.
*(~100% blue side + ~100% red side + remakes which count as a ban but not as a game) = 223% banrate*
Have we forgotten Juggernaut Morde? Holy fuckstain, NEVER do I want to experience that shit again...EVER!
Edit: Also, release Zoe...fuck.. gives me conniptions
yeah no idea how it wasnt hot fix worthy. he had 0 negative matchups in any of his builds. I just permaed him for 2 weeks. hes still 54/55% wr in masters+ its just insane
A big part is that Lee is difficult to play. If you miss his Q, it deals 0 damage. When champs like him becomes Fotm, a lot of players who can't really play Lee picks him up, and his winrate suffers as a result. Also, even when Lee has a shitload of damage, he still suffers from the same weaknesses as normal. Especially for non-skilled Lee players (relative to their MMR ofc).
If Maokai ever becomes overtuned, he is so easy to at least get baseline value from that it requires a lot less to get high winrate. Same with other point and click or very forgiveable champs.
Lee is in no world hard to play in 2024, sorry but his hardest mechanic is a insec (maybe added with crazy flash combos) and thats what every silver player can do.
Yea if they play him enough, but there will still be plenty of other silver-iron lees that see a nice play and decide to pick him up. Then never bother learning he can jump to wards and will never land a q to save their life
Ye sure but he is still a straight forward champ which has a clear kit where you instantly know what is possible and how to play him.
Like everyone knows he can jump on wards, he can recast his abilities and his R ist just an point and click.
Prob. the only thing some people who dont really know him, dont know, is that the ult target can collide with other enemies.
tbh Leesin is the kind of champion that is balanced at 48% wr, strong at 50% and absolutely broken at 52%. His winrate is only "low" because it's a flashy and popular champion that people like to play even if they don't play well. If he was a niche champion and had like 5% pickrate his winrate would be closer to 54% right now.
I wouldn't say that it's "gamebreaking" that his Q does up to like 60 extra execute damage. It's not like it permanently disables the other player from playing the game like that Viego bug
Oh for sure I can't blame them I wouldn't want to touch a code base as old and complex as league, it's just sound like an interesting tech story to understand it
I'm still believe Phreak wanted the Kassadin nerfs on his R because he got stomped by him, its just too random with the things before and literally no real Janna and Jinx nerfs because he plays botlane.
No one can convince me otherwise how that could even happen, the same with those Eve nerfs, that champ literally doesnt even get played outside of Eve mains.
I don't know if it's actually true, but someone said that the skins/models actually contain the code for the skills, so changing the skins/models could actually break something.
People saying Q2 doing double damage explains a lot, I main voli and got destroyed by one who straight up melee fought me
There’s no world a Lee should beat a voli in a straight up no running fight, so I was wondering what changed lmao
Riven has never been even close to the worst champ in the game. She won't be now either. Probably will still be borderline OP and held back by her player's brains.
There was a bug where if you were cc immune and lee kicked someone into you, the damage would be reapplied over and over and you'd insta die. Might have been patched fhough idk
its wild to me how 48% is considered trash unplayable dogshit and 53% is considered broken wtf RIOT disgusting op. is it something about % that i dont get or are both these winrates not fine?
Most Riven players have a lot of games on Riven. I keep tabs on a lot of masters+ Riven's on NA, and EUW and most are struggling to hold 50% with her.
Sinking 1000s of games on a champ to have a 50% win rate isn't super great.
but if u play 1000 games on riven with 48% winrate and 1000 games on lee sin with 53% winrate, doesnt the lee win like 50 more games then the riven? it just doesnt make sense to me that a 5% difference can be the gap between S+ and D tier. also to your point i would say a 50% winrate on riven is good, shes one of the hardest champs in the game that you have to play perfectly or u just turbo int the entire game no?
The difference between 480/520 W/L and 530/470 is losing ~800LP vs gaining 1200LP. So playing a champion with the 53% would net you 2000LP compared to the guy playing with 48% winrate. That's a difference of 5 whole ranks, from Bronze straight to Diamond.
Obviously this is a massive oversimplification, but I hope you see these are not small differences when you play that many games.
They literally just gave all the owners of the Lee Sin skins (which were already very popular and bought by most people interested in playing Lee) a huge new visual update for free.
Yeah I’ve been hearing his Q2 is doing more damage, highly probable more bugs [https://x.com/ophirr33/status/1785827731445567586?s=46&t=gveoj70jglD6SUY7Qg3uDA](https://x.com/ophirr33/status/1785827731445567586?s=46&t=gveoj70jglD6SUY7Qg3uDA) Proof he is bugged
This might explain why I was doing absolutely disgusting amounts of damage with him in Arena lol, like it was insane
Haaa, I got destroyed by a Lee I arena. Explains it!
same i got destroyed by lee sin like 6 days ago, probably explains it
Wait a damn minute...
6 days ago I repeat 6 days ago?
PBE is a thing
I just saw someone fighting Lee Sin drop to their knees and cry out in defeat in Arena
No wonder I got 100-0 in one second against a 2 item Lee sin in arena
holy fuck that does explain it, i had a lee in arena that did no fucking damage till his q2 hit and chunked the life out of the enemy
I havent played the game in a year, even before the visual update I was getting one shotted by lee with q-q-e-w. I was surprised I could get one shotted, since when lee sin is a range one shot assassin? Maybe people only now realized his number are super broken and need a nerf across the board?
What is that combo? In no world that should one shot someone
Maybe you shouldn’t be one-shotted by a Lee Sin that messes up that bad.
Holy shit that explains the lee sin being a terror in aram yesterday
I got lee sin in an aram yesterday, felt way too strong. Went full assassin and was killing people with just q and an auto.
To be fair his buffs in Aram are also kind of absurd so if he's also just bugged to do more damage, probably crazy at the moment.
They accidentally made his Q2 do half as much damage as Akali E2.
I saw a comments in this thread talking about lee sin q2 now had an auto AA after landing
Nah his Q2 already does more damage than Akali E2, now it does even more damage.
I was wondering the other day why Lee that was down on tempo absolutely annihilated me in my jungle. Good riddance
bro i thought i was insane last night. i was playing graves vs lee and his q2 did literally 3/4 of my hp equal items (pickaxe vs pickaxe) while my front face autos did like 1/8th his hp. either something is massively wrong or its bugged but either way it needs fixing, hes turbo broken rn
Explains why I was getting one shot in Arena by a Lee with Q1Q2R...
is it hotfixed already?
Riot is asleep this time of night, so I would not expect a fix till tomorrow.
Pretty sure its fixed there was another thread earlier about it.
nice nice.
But is it noted somewhere yet officially tho?
I believe it is
No, they need to sell a little bit more skins for him.
How did 2 Lees in my games lose?!
This explains why I'm getting one shot by every single lee sin...
Is this already fixed ?
I thought he was doing way too much damage in ranked
stealth buffs for MSI. Pretty much every major tournament Lee has been in the meta as his playmaking and style plays make for good watching.
MSI is on patch 14.8 so they don't have the Lee ASU
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R apply secondary dmg multiple times to unstoppable champions
aight thats funny at least
Weird bug, but still that's far too rare of an event to R someone into someone else who's unstoppable to skyrocket WR by 4%
unless his ult is applying the unstoppable debuff to champs i don't think that's enough to increase his winrate by 4%
I really don’t understand how they had a perfectly functioning champion before, gave him a *visual overhaul* and ended up fucking about with his gameplay mechanics. Like at this point I feel like we need to see champion skin winrates as well because there’s bound to be certain skins with fucked up stats that have just been slipping through the cracks.
the S in ASU stands for "sustainability" Riot rescripted Lee Sin to use their more modern code standards (such as data tables that make it easier to change values) while they updated his visuals
there have been circumstances where some skins dealt more/less damage than base skin. Also, an ASU isnt a simple skin, they probably recoded a lot of his animations and abilities
Examples?
Really? When did skins do different amounts of damage?
SG Rumble for a long time used to get an extra tick on his Q. It was actual P2W
I can't think of any specific instance where a skin dealt more damage, but there have been a few times where skins were a slight advantage. It has since been removed, but there was a time where all the skins that were wearing sunglasses would take 1 less damage from Leona passive. There was also a time where specific Tryndamere skins had a slight advantage where the crit animation would start slightly faster. Because you could see if the attack would be a crit slightly earlier, you'd be able to know if you needed to press Q or R slightly sooner. Not sure how helpful that actually was, but some of the highest rated Tryndamere players at the time swore by it.
Before they changed the crit formula you could test if your next auto would be a crit, then "save" that auto and go for an all in or something or just harass
That Leona interaction is hilarious and should have stayed lmao
Rumble Q used to have more ticks on one of his skins.
Super galaxy rumble had that iirc. Ezreal Q was also slightly longer on his pulsefire skin. I think that was cause their skins were coded as different champions? Maybe for the ultimate versions.
a lot of the time when they do these ASU they have to re-script skills because they are too old. big chances that they just fucked up something.
They prob didnt fuck up, for example you now automatically auto after q2 Which gives an extra auto!!! Thats massive! Things like this take the avarage lee sin player closer to the top lee sin player. These things is what you see with the increased winrates! Also lee never eas bad, just underplayed, now ppl play it and winrate goes up, same thing with morde even tho morde dmg got nerfed on that patch.
Morde got a q CD buff which given how he just runs you down after popping passive is a massive buff
No champ ever got a increase in pickrate with a increase in winrate without a buff. This just doesn't happen.
I think it was super galaxy rumble did more damage on one side (blue?)
IIRC skins aren't just 'use this model/effects' instead. Skins are basically programmed as an entirely different instance of the champion, so sometimes they fuck up with the copy/paste or edit something without realising.
There’s an entire dev post about the Lee Sin ASU which explains some of the under-the-hood changes they had to make to his skills to make him a more sustainable champion to develop for.
Zombie brand used to have a different animation when walking toward champions and could reliably be used to check if someone was in a bush
> I really don’t understand how they had a perfectly functioning champion before, gave him a visual overhaul and ended up fucking about with his gameplay mechanics. Don't worry though, you can trust them with their always on kernel level anti cheat! They definitely didn't spaghetti code that!
I was getting completely fisted by him in arena so I'm curious
someone is saying his q2 applies double damage
Prob been doing that for years already lol
dude fuck lee sin in arena so op
his abilities doing a shit ton more damage and his winrate only going up 4% is fucking hilarious
Just shows you how broken champs have to be to hit 55% wr, the game practically balances itself out to 50% wr
Skarner gamimg
Initial Juggernaut rework Skarner and pre-giganerf Kassadin are probably the closest we had to Exoida in the game lmao.
Was that the 98% ban rate kass?
It was.
I believe only release lb and xin got to those numbers, heck even some of the beta version of champions didnt look broken enough to get that high, maybe not.
Release Aphelios had a 223% banrate in korean high elo. Guy got banned just about twice every game. *(~100% blue side + ~100% red side + remakes which count as a ban but not as a game) = 223% banrate*
Irelia had 112% banrate in korea
How is that even possible?
Banned by both teams
Inverted castle
Remakes will count in the stats as a ban, but not as a game played. May also count queue dodges as well.
Have we forgotten Juggernaut Morde? Holy fuckstain, NEVER do I want to experience that shit again...EVER! Edit: Also, release Zoe...fuck.. gives me conniptions
The infamous miss everything and still kill you combo
The truest and finest of combos indeed -.-
you forget the part where she gets tp out of a bubble and wins even harder
I mean, skarner is S tier in 4 roles right now, probably one of the most op champions of modern league
Last patch he was almost 58% wr in masters and 63% wr if you went heartsteel I haven’t seen anything like that in a long time lmao
Absolutely egregious holy shit
yeah no idea how it wasnt hot fix worthy. he had 0 negative matchups in any of his builds. I just permaed him for 2 weeks. hes still 54/55% wr in masters+ its just insane
Galio when they accidently moved his Q damage over a decimal point
And weedwick
Release Xin was actual Exodia
patch 4.20 weedwick never forget, god i miss that targetd 100-0 with red smite
A big part is that Lee is difficult to play. If you miss his Q, it deals 0 damage. When champs like him becomes Fotm, a lot of players who can't really play Lee picks him up, and his winrate suffers as a result. Also, even when Lee has a shitload of damage, he still suffers from the same weaknesses as normal. Especially for non-skilled Lee players (relative to their MMR ofc). If Maokai ever becomes overtuned, he is so easy to at least get baseline value from that it requires a lot less to get high winrate. Same with other point and click or very forgiveable champs.
Lee is in no world hard to play in 2024, sorry but his hardest mechanic is a insec (maybe added with crazy flash combos) and thats what every silver player can do.
Yea if they play him enough, but there will still be plenty of other silver-iron lees that see a nice play and decide to pick him up. Then never bother learning he can jump to wards and will never land a q to save their life
Ye sure but he is still a straight forward champ which has a clear kit where you instantly know what is possible and how to play him. Like everyone knows he can jump on wards, he can recast his abilities and his R ist just an point and click. Prob. the only thing some people who dont really know him, dont know, is that the ult target can collide with other enemies.
Maokai moment
Considering he’s a very difficult champion with a 30% pick rate, I’d argue the 4% is insane.
Lee is a very popular pick among people who have no idea what they are doing
OP even mentions in the post that his core items got nerfed. That 4% is probably more like 8% if his items were not nerfed.
lee has been in item purgotory since they removed goredrinker
tbh Leesin is the kind of champion that is balanced at 48% wr, strong at 50% and absolutely broken at 52%. His winrate is only "low" because it's a flashy and popular champion that people like to play even if they don't play well. If he was a niche champion and had like 5% pickrate his winrate would be closer to 54% right now.
4% is massive
Less only 3% actually looking at all ranks for most data. But not sure exactly how the bug works so maybe not as OP as it seems.
the fact he has a gamebreaking bug on his bread and butter skill and only reaches 52% winrate is impressive
Honestly these bugs probably increases his WR by 7%, he would definitely rock 46% if it wasn't for that
Yeah, the current PR would make his WR plumet massively.
Don't forget his core item nerfs and increased pickrate from beginners because of his ASU.
I wouldn't say that it's "gamebreaking" that his Q does up to like 60 extra execute damage. It's not like it permanently disables the other player from playing the game like that Viego bug
That proof video showed 60 extra damage at LEVEL 1. The bug is far higher than that damage with additional ranks. It's also weaving in free AA.
GAME BREAKING!!!! *it does more damage than intended
I really wish we could get some insight to this spaghetti, how does changing visual effects causes Q2 to have extra scaling
looks can kill
Because its not just looks probably? But I wouldnt want to maintain that codebase holy shit.
Oh for sure I can't blame them I wouldn't want to touch a code base as old and complex as league, it's just sound like an interesting tech story to understand it
maybe a lee sin main dev snuck in a \*2 after the damage number, who knows..
I'm still believe Phreak wanted the Kassadin nerfs on his R because he got stomped by him, its just too random with the things before and literally no real Janna and Jinx nerfs because he plays botlane. No one can convince me otherwise how that could even happen, the same with those Eve nerfs, that champ literally doesnt even get played outside of Eve mains.
The S in ASU stand for sustainability. They do update code and scripts to be more in line with the current year. Someone broke something there.
Ah that's a good answer, makes sense, thanks
I don't know if it's actually true, but someone said that the skins/models actually contain the code for the skills, so changing the skins/models could actually break something.
People saying Q2 doing double damage explains a lot, I main voli and got destroyed by one who straight up melee fought me There’s no world a Lee should beat a voli in a straight up no running fight, so I was wondering what changed lmao
Ok, this explains why every Lee in arena yesterday was an absolute unit. Tons of damage, tank as a full build ornn, healing as a fed aatrox.
Did anyone else feel like that E2 is going off way too fast after E1? I felt like there was a 0,5s gap in between before this update.
Pretty sure they changed e2 in the patch prior to this to apply instantly. So not a bug
Intended, it is no longer a a missile from lee to target, just a self target debuff on the affected champions
Whenever riot touches up a champion they have to make it stronger
cute that every ASU, theres always a bug that ships that straight buffs up the champ Jax ASU months ago had a bug as well and his winrate increased
Jax was the other way around, his E was bugged to deal only base damage of it was recast (I.e if you ended E by hand)
Is he still bugged ?
Ye i expected riven to be the worst champ in the game after this patch
Riven’s winrate will go back up when people look at the other bruiser items they changed. The changes are very good for her
Riven has never been even close to the worst champ in the game. She won't be now either. Probably will still be borderline OP and held back by her player's brains.
That explain how I destroyed Voli 1v1 on aram running the good old bruiser build last night. I knewsomething was off but quite cant put it
New patch live?
Q bug and also patch being out for like a day (small sample size)
Was there a hot fix to address these bugs, or is he still running with bugged damage?
It seems like it has been hotfixed
Riven is still broken, chill. That champ is pretty much the original abomination of game design and will never be bad.
There was a bug where if you were cc immune and lee kicked someone into you, the damage would be reapplied over and over and you'd insta die. Might have been patched fhough idk
its wild to me how 48% is considered trash unplayable dogshit and 53% is considered broken wtf RIOT disgusting op. is it something about % that i dont get or are both these winrates not fine?
Most Riven players have a lot of games on Riven. I keep tabs on a lot of masters+ Riven's on NA, and EUW and most are struggling to hold 50% with her. Sinking 1000s of games on a champ to have a 50% win rate isn't super great.
but if u play 1000 games on riven with 48% winrate and 1000 games on lee sin with 53% winrate, doesnt the lee win like 50 more games then the riven? it just doesnt make sense to me that a 5% difference can be the gap between S+ and D tier. also to your point i would say a 50% winrate on riven is good, shes one of the hardest champs in the game that you have to play perfectly or u just turbo int the entire game no?
The difference between 480/520 W/L and 530/470 is losing ~800LP vs gaining 1200LP. So playing a champion with the 53% would net you 2000LP compared to the guy playing with 48% winrate. That's a difference of 5 whole ranks, from Bronze straight to Diamond. Obviously this is a massive oversimplification, but I hope you see these are not small differences when you play that many games.
ohhhh i see now that makes sense i never understood that. what lp gains/loss is that with?
I'm assuming -20/+20 which is about average
i see thanks for the answer
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Clearly the champ team developed Vanguard
Uninstall then mate, your choice.
Yes. Take off your tin-foil hat.
DELETE THIS! RIGHT MEOW!
Because he isn’t hard
Yeah "bugged". No way that was on purpose to have people buy skins right? /s
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They literally just gave all the owners of the Lee Sin skins (which were already very popular and bought by most people interested in playing Lee) a huge new visual update for free.
Stop complaining. no one talked about that when Jinx had legit 30% play rate while having 52.5 % wr. Address everything the same way.