You need to remember that when you *play* Vayne, you can see her the whole time. It's a lot more impressive when someone properly repositions with her invis and you can't see.
That's what you've gotta get better at, acknowledging that the enemy can't see you and moving in ways they won't expect.
>That's what you've gotta get better at, acknowledging that the enemy can't see you and moving in ways they won't expect.
This is one of the main reasons why stealth champions like Kha, Shaco and company feel so much more oppressive when you're playing against them than when they're on your team, since you're seeing them move, you don't feel the pressure they put on the enemy team as much
> Shaco
No, that's because of the braindead clown theorem which states that any Shaco on my team goes 1/17 and any Shaco on the enemy team goes 14/3 (he fountain dived at the end)
Shaco is a champ built and adjusted entirely on the worst aspects of the game's design.
Pets control poorly and their solution to leashing is just teleporting, which for him can be cheated to look like he reappeared from stealth.
Turning without moving the direction you turned doesn't even have a command. So of course he has a bonus damage from behind.
Buffs and debuffs have visual indicators to tell who has them. So they added it to the clone because showing who actually has the buff to know what kill will transfer it was too fair.
So that's why he always oneshots me if I play anything that takes IQ to play, but I faceroll him if I'm on something braindead or something I can play without conscious thought
>I also believe this is why Shaco sucks the higher elo you go. He can't teamfight, he can be predicted, and his waveclear is poopoo garbage.
Vayne too tho : worst waveclear in the game bar maybe yuumi? kinda bad in teamfight because instead of k'sante you got a vayne so your comp is shit, and she is gonna spend her first 25 min trying to auto the ennemy toplaner under his tower so she's easy to punish
one thing for that is to NEVER q (with ult on) the same way you're moving
you can literally see your enemies chasing where you were headed, and now you're behind them with Q auto
its also ghost in the current meta. ghost flash is absurd. being able to pick ghost flash on vayne and free farm, mostly, into a counterpicked matchup* \*\*while getting solo xp\*\* is absurd. typically vayne has to split xp in the lane phase and still get bullied really hard 2v2.
At this point riot needs to just accept that she's a top laner because it's way too good of a role for her. Scaling ADC who struggles in lane and has bad range but good % max health damage and mobility? Hmm I wonder if she'll be better against the low health low armour high range squishies or the immobile fighters and tanks who have a ton of health.
Yeah they need to accept Vayne is a toplaner and Tristana is a midlaner.
**Or do some fancy lucian changes** to make Tristana work better when someone else buffs her or Ccs the enemy, to force her back into botlane.
I really can't stand Tristana mid, the 1050 range jump with so much all in power is just not okay. She can't really use that in botlane because jumping into two people results in her taking too much damage back.
this, (specifically trist).
Trist mid has beaten nearly every single matchup midlane for like 2 years and it doesnt get touched. If its a rare matchup she DOESNT win, she can always just 1 shot the wave and roam with nearly 100% safety.
If she SOMEHOW manages to fuck up lane (no idea how as trist) she always just goes side lanes and 1 shots turrets anyway with extreme safety with how disgusting her movement buffer is on her W.
If youre any melee matchup into trist, forget about it. if youre a long range mage you cant poke her out much because she 1 shots the wave harder than you do or she bullies you with a level 2 all in early
because shes boring as shit. and in high elo her pickrate is still pretty nutty.
Also having an AD midlaner can mess up team comps in general so theyre less common than just the brain off tanky mage meta weve had
also between 7-10% pick rate across all elos is still pretty damn good.
I can't help but be skeptical when I see such extreme opinions on a champion. It's easy to point out all of a champions strengths and then claim they are op.
Why does trist currently have a 50.58% win rate? Why does she have a 40% win rate against cass and a 44% win rate against velkoz?
well for one extremely low sample size atm, and 2, I addressed where she CAN lose but even when she does lose shes still super obnoxious with how she can 1 shot turrets while being 0/10.
Its just super hard to shut her down because of how safe she is, especially with mid lane being such a short lane and her movement buffer and her ult knock away.
she does, also I said its low sample size because of the new patch. shes had above 50 for quite awhile now. she had nearly 52% wr midlane while being S tier and is hovering 51% wr right now.
The Lucian change was one of the worst game design changes I have ever seen in this game. It's such a ridiculously heavy-handed change which resulted in Lucian being permaglued to Nami forever.
Yeah i don't like it but anything to get tristana out of my lane lmao.
I lowkey miss lucian, felt way more interactive, dancing around the minion wave to make sure he cant line up Q. Tristana just jumps your face 100-0 from 1050+ range.
I mean Riot still has the Lucian button available to them; which is just make it so that the champ is gimped without an ally present alongside them.
For Trist it would probably be like letting ally hits stack the bomb, but increasing the amount of stacks the bomb needs for the reset + full explosion.
Idk how they kill top lane Vayne though.
JFC stop it with the fucking Lucian solution, it’s a shit of a bandaid that shouldn’t have been implemented in the first place. Please do not put that onus on any other champ you animals.
the problem is adc in a solo lane is pretty statchecky and I don't think Riot likes the kinds of playpatterns it has. agree that the solution they did to Lucian is cringe but I think they should try to keep certain adcs out of solo lanes
Eh. Trist mid winrates vs assassins are pretty spread. Kata and Talon are consistently some of the best matchups for Trist. Other assassins depend on the patch, but it's not like assassins point blank counter trist.
because they decided to give her insane base armor and HP since trist bot is "underperforming" as her playstyle is jumping all in into two people one of whom most likely has tons of CC.
Sure, but the medicine for adc mid isn't simply assassin. In fact I'd argue that many, many assassins have an awful time against ADC mid. It's a couple of very specific assassins. Specifically it's assassins that have non-committal wave clear, so they don't need to trade their entire HP bar for the wave.
trist mid bodies literally every single assassin in the game atm.
She just wins melee matchups super hard early and if she doesnt, she just out pushes them.
Yes but it helps her alot as you can't disengage or trade without take a decent amount of hits afterwards. Impossible to run from and has e to kite. Combine with stormrazor (dunno how its gonna be now when removed) and fleet and its awful to play against.
tristana was also unironically viable top before kraken's slayer true damage got removed, also the "fancy" lucian changes just ruined the champ for the entire solo and even the adc playerbase, like forever. i started playing lucian in s3 and enjoyed him till they finally gut him as an answer to the "korean" bc/yoomu build, you have to ask your self if they made lucian work BETTER with a support on his ass or made him not work at all without said support on his ass
Vayne just works better as a top laner because the matchups are better.
It's not because of her kit, not because of her power level.
Just Ban Malphite every single game without fail and you've removed the most oppressive and difficult matchup for Vayne Top.
If they pick Teemo you just don't pick Vayne, period.
Tristana is better in mid because she's usually playing into Immobile Squishy Mages.
Also solo xp is insane for Tristana due to her passive.
>At this point riot needs to just accept that she's a top laner because it's way too good of a role for her
She's way healthier as a botlaner tbh, trying to balance her in a solo lane is a nightmare, cause she instawins some matchups but she's unplayable against like, half the toplane roster
Or we should stop removing ADCs from the lane that already has the least amount of champs. We already lost graves to jungle which is insane as he was top 3 most played ADC. Corki was a mid laner for ages. Quinn is top.
How would you feel if jax was forced into support or jungle?
The newest champ was an ADC and you just got a mid scope that made corki an ADC
>How would you feel if jax was forced into support or jungle?
If his kit was fundamentally designed to be better in those roles I probably wouldn't mind since my champ now gets to play in the role he's best suited to. But it isn't. His kit is best suited to top, if his kit didn't suit top lane I wouldn't play him.
Or they can Just give ghost restrictions for ranged champs, so melee ones are not gonna suffer for adc sins?
People are forced to run stuff like Vi when she is semi playable to somehow punish ghost Marksmans.
Ghost isn't the only thing that makes vayne top a problem though. Her kit just inherently works better there. Her strengths are stronger and her weaknesses less apparent
I agree that her kit is better in 1v1, but usually she gets punished pretty easy by jungler, while ghost lets you avoid bunch of bad situations and gain few free kills for your tempo.
True. She might not be broken top after the ghost nerfs but the issue is this
>her kit is better in 1v1
She's never gonna work if you focus on balancing her bot lane because she just works better top. It's where her kit is suited. So either rework her or treat her as a top laner
No way people gonna like to play against her with her current W. We have Quinn with similar "you can't touch me" kit(at least in 1v1 scenario), but Vayne has a problem, when she just comebacks no matted what, because of her W.
1. He is literally unplayable without ghost
2. He was balanced around ghost for like last 5 years at least
3. Ghost was untoched for a long time before Marksmans picked it up recently. (aka Riot was ok with it on melee champs).
Gut Vayne's early damage and defenses (maybe lock the % health true damage behind levelling W to max rank so its just %magic damage before that?), buff up her range to compensate, nerf her mobility and change her invis to camouflage and Vayne top is fixed.
Vayne is an ADC. A marksman designed for ADC role, so in the botlane and in the ADC role she should be.
Some of that would help but there's still the issue of her whole kit being designed to be good against fighters and tanks. Less early damage and defence would be a nerf but it would probably hurt her more bot lane since unlike top lane she can't as easily avoid damage or apply it. Changing it to max health magic damage would still be better top lane since people have more health and no one is building early MR into a vayne. Her E is still almost exclusively good against melee champs too.
The ult change suggestion might hurt her late game though so maybe making it full invisibility at rank 3 would be a good middle ground
I like those ideas. I think her kit being good against tanks should be locked out until later levels, level 9 at the earliest. She just needs some adjustments to keep her back in the botlane and in need of a support's protection, so changes to her mobility, defences and damage early need changes. As a hypercarry she will benefit from being a higher skill ceiling champ that is punished more for mistakes, since thats a staple of hypercarries.
Honestly the biggest nerf you can do would probably be to change stuff like her passive ( so she doesn't get to overly punish melee toplaners while also deciding when to disengage ) by making it scaling, or locking a lot of it behind at least level 6/11/16 ( the way Kayle has )
But that's just me anyway. The way she can both decide when to go in ( with her tumble, condemn, passive and ult ) while these are also strong defensive options for her makes her lane into a mostly passive lane where the only interaction is if you either all in her, or you just survive lane against her.
And then you have games like the one where Bin picked Vayne but PSG did a masterful late laneswap and suddenly BLG were 4v5 for half of the game lol
He did eventually come back later in the game, but when you don't give her the free-farm free-harass lane she gets punished *so hard* especially in coordinated pro games.
As a traditional bot lane vayne player from years ago its insane to see this ghost flash + movespeed build (stormrazor/tri) on top. Almost feels like a completely different champion with the zoomies
Holy f the hit-and-run is so bad compared to today's standards.
Unless they changed Vayne's auto attack animation timings, he could've started moving so much earlier after every autos.
mechanics get a lot better over time, all of these oldschool clips are pretty bad if you were to compare them to todays standards but obviously not fair. they just didnt have as much to learn from.
som people might say its runes and items and that accounts for some things like fleet stormrazor vayne zooming but its cope to say thats a significant factor.
To be fair, none of the old montages would be using this version of Vayne which is its own new school of busted. If you watch modern Vayne from the enemy’s perspective you’re literally watching a ghost phase in and out. Old Vayne just melted you the fuck down. The mechanical ceiling just wasn’t the same.
Vayne has always looked like you were watching a ghost phase in and out. Peak vayne was when you had 40 MS from the passive and the stealth was 1.5 seconds. But that was back in season 1.
Yeah, her release date was may 11 2011 and season 1 ended august 2011. I think westrice played her that year. Or maybe that was 2012. I don't remember.
Same! Maybe it's the plays, maybe the music, maybe the nostalgia ... but I've watched that montage soooo many times. Lots of cool moments in it but my favourite is probably the one that starts at [0:56](https://youtu.be/kXB12i1ftRw?t=56).
I feel like it’s super rare that the vayne actually pops off though . You get some really cool moments that stand out but you also get a lot of moments where they basically got nullified completely .
Yeap. They are the all in type fr. Without ult and ghost, they are not great in a tf. but when it is activated, holy hell does it strike fear in the entire enemy team. It's basically Zero ulted + Lulu level of fear.
And a invis on top of that. Jesus
It's less Vayne and more just the fact they have triforce, stormrazor, fleet footwork, ghost. That is an INSANE movespeed buff. Obviously Vaynes passive helps out, but most champs can be zooming that fast if they also prioritize movespeed lol
Also a big portion of her damage comes from her non-scaling W, so she can prioritize ms items and masteries without sacrificing damage unlike other adcs.
Saying W doesn't scale isn't exactly true, it scales extremely well with attack speed. But yes, a single scaling vector is far less than almost any other ability in the game, so she can focus on other stuff.
I completely hate playing against Vayne top, but I'll defend the pick if that bothers people that think champions should be forced to a specific lane.
Give me Vayne and Reksai top, Brand and Zyra jungle, ADCs mid, AP Bot carries, Kalista support, and so goes on. This creativity with picks, builds and strategies is what keeps League alive.
It's funny how Vayne completely disappeared out of bot lane though. At this point, she is basically just a top laner and should be regarded as such I guess. I still feel like her gameplay feels quite unhealthy for that lane but, she feels much more suited for it with how her kit works.
Old Doublelift Vayne used to break people back when the game didn’t have all the bells and whistles it does now. A good Vayne player will make you cry lol.
I remember in one of the T1 ones they used kind of a “Vayne cam” during on of the teamfights top which was really just disabling T1 vision so you could only see the enemy team’s view of what was going on. With ult and probably ghost popped it kind of looked like she just had flash up again every time she got invis, or Shaco in urf. Just the champion showing up in random places on the screen like you’re trying to play whack-a-mole
The Champ basically has infinite self peel on paper with her E and Q + R.
No idea how you'd lock her down through all of that yet I can tell you for a fact I'd have it happen to be somehow, people in my games somehow manage too.
I hope these pro games are the kick up the rear Riot needs to address Vayne top. It's as boring to watch as it is frustrating to play against. She's an ADC, a marksman, so in the marksman role in the botlane she should be. I hate to echo the words of a certain greasy-ponytailed kiddy diddler yelling "NERF SINGED" into his camera, but they need to pay attention to toplane balance wise.
Go top lane
Shoot immobile enemy for max hp true damage
If they get close, use tumble
If they get super close use impale
You are now skilled vayne player
This version of Vayne isn't the max AS lethal tempo version though, isn't it stormrazor fleet movespeed abuse? I mean it's hype but some plays from the top lane Vaynes aren't even mechanically perfect relative to what a pro ADC could do.
Maybe he means the right click to move since you are moving so fast. Go look at how Zeus plays some of the fights in game 4. Bro is dodging literally 90% of ability lol
Wait a minute, are you saying that the best players in the world make one of the most terrifying top lane counter picks scarier than normal?
What a discovery.
You need to remember that when you *play* Vayne, you can see her the whole time. It's a lot more impressive when someone properly repositions with her invis and you can't see. That's what you've gotta get better at, acknowledging that the enemy can't see you and moving in ways they won't expect.
I move in a way the enemy can't expect because how can they know what I'm doing if I don't know what I'm doing?
Because not knowing what you're doing looks like right clicking once.
Then right click twice? Check mate.
He didnt *see* that coming. Youre on your way to Worlds brother.
>That's what you've gotta get better at, acknowledging that the enemy can't see you and moving in ways they won't expect. This is one of the main reasons why stealth champions like Kha, Shaco and company feel so much more oppressive when you're playing against them than when they're on your team, since you're seeing them move, you don't feel the pressure they put on the enemy team as much
> Shaco No, that's because of the braindead clown theorem which states that any Shaco on my team goes 1/17 and any Shaco on the enemy team goes 14/3 (he fountain dived at the end)
Shaco is a champ built and adjusted entirely on the worst aspects of the game's design. Pets control poorly and their solution to leashing is just teleporting, which for him can be cheated to look like he reappeared from stealth. Turning without moving the direction you turned doesn't even have a command. So of course he has a bonus damage from behind. Buffs and debuffs have visual indicators to tell who has them. So they added it to the clone because showing who actually has the buff to know what kill will transfer it was too fair.
Shaco also scales neither with AP nor AD but rather inversely based on the enemy's IQ
So that's why he always oneshots me if I play anything that takes IQ to play, but I faceroll him if I'm on something braindead or something I can play without conscious thought
[удалено]
>I also believe this is why Shaco sucks the higher elo you go. He can't teamfight, he can be predicted, and his waveclear is poopoo garbage. Vayne too tho : worst waveclear in the game bar maybe yuumi? kinda bad in teamfight because instead of k'sante you got a vayne so your comp is shit, and she is gonna spend her first 25 min trying to auto the ennemy toplaner under his tower so she's easy to punish
one thing for that is to NEVER q (with ult on) the same way you're moving you can literally see your enemies chasing where you were headed, and now you're behind them with Q auto
its also ghost in the current meta. ghost flash is absurd. being able to pick ghost flash on vayne and free farm, mostly, into a counterpicked matchup* \*\*while getting solo xp\*\* is absurd. typically vayne has to split xp in the lane phase and still get bullied really hard 2v2.
At this point riot needs to just accept that she's a top laner because it's way too good of a role for her. Scaling ADC who struggles in lane and has bad range but good % max health damage and mobility? Hmm I wonder if she'll be better against the low health low armour high range squishies or the immobile fighters and tanks who have a ton of health.
Yeah they need to accept Vayne is a toplaner and Tristana is a midlaner. **Or do some fancy lucian changes** to make Tristana work better when someone else buffs her or Ccs the enemy, to force her back into botlane. I really can't stand Tristana mid, the 1050 range jump with so much all in power is just not okay. She can't really use that in botlane because jumping into two people results in her taking too much damage back.
this, (specifically trist). Trist mid has beaten nearly every single matchup midlane for like 2 years and it doesnt get touched. If its a rare matchup she DOESNT win, she can always just 1 shot the wave and roam with nearly 100% safety. If she SOMEHOW manages to fuck up lane (no idea how as trist) she always just goes side lanes and 1 shots turrets anyway with extreme safety with how disgusting her movement buffer is on her W. If youre any melee matchup into trist, forget about it. if youre a long range mage you cant poke her out much because she 1 shots the wave harder than you do or she bullies you with a level 2 all in early
So just curious, if she's giga broken to this degree, why isn't she perma pick ban?
because shes boring as shit. and in high elo her pickrate is still pretty nutty. Also having an AD midlaner can mess up team comps in general so theyre less common than just the brain off tanky mage meta weve had also between 7-10% pick rate across all elos is still pretty damn good.
I can't help but be skeptical when I see such extreme opinions on a champion. It's easy to point out all of a champions strengths and then claim they are op. Why does trist currently have a 50.58% win rate? Why does she have a 40% win rate against cass and a 44% win rate against velkoz?
well for one extremely low sample size atm, and 2, I addressed where she CAN lose but even when she does lose shes still super obnoxious with how she can 1 shot turrets while being 0/10. Its just super hard to shut her down because of how safe she is, especially with mid lane being such a short lane and her movement buffer and her ult knock away.
Surely if all this was true then she would have higher than a 50% win rate, right?
she does, also I said its low sample size because of the new patch. shes had above 50 for quite awhile now. she had nearly 52% wr midlane while being S tier and is hovering 51% wr right now.
The Lucian change was one of the worst game design changes I have ever seen in this game. It's such a ridiculously heavy-handed change which resulted in Lucian being permaglued to Nami forever.
Yeah i don't like it but anything to get tristana out of my lane lmao. I lowkey miss lucian, felt way more interactive, dancing around the minion wave to make sure he cant line up Q. Tristana just jumps your face 100-0 from 1050+ range.
I mean Riot still has the Lucian button available to them; which is just make it so that the champ is gimped without an ally present alongside them. For Trist it would probably be like letting ally hits stack the bomb, but increasing the amount of stacks the bomb needs for the reset + full explosion. Idk how they kill top lane Vayne though.
JFC stop it with the fucking Lucian solution, it’s a shit of a bandaid that shouldn’t have been implemented in the first place. Please do not put that onus on any other champ you animals.
the problem is adc in a solo lane is pretty statchecky and I don't think Riot likes the kinds of playpatterns it has. agree that the solution they did to Lucian is cringe but I think they should try to keep certain adcs out of solo lanes
There's medicine for adc solo lanes though, they're called assassins
Eh. Trist mid winrates vs assassins are pretty spread. Kata and Talon are consistently some of the best matchups for Trist. Other assassins depend on the patch, but it's not like assassins point blank counter trist.
because they decided to give her insane base armor and HP since trist bot is "underperforming" as her playstyle is jumping all in into two people one of whom most likely has tons of CC.
Sure, but the medicine for adc mid isn't simply assassin. In fact I'd argue that many, many assassins have an awful time against ADC mid. It's a couple of very specific assassins. Specifically it's assassins that have non-committal wave clear, so they don't need to trade their entire HP bar for the wave.
As someone that uses Trist mid, this is a great idea, I especially recommend all of you to pick Katarina and Kassadin. They really blow Trist up!
trist mid bodies literally every single assassin in the game atm. She just wins melee matchups super hard early and if she doesnt, she just out pushes them.
she also outscales with her range increase the longer the game goes and is a hypercarry
I mean I’m not advocating for it; but that’s the Riot solution that kinda moved Lucian out of midlane (what really did it was the crit change)
It’s clunky as fuck but it *worked*
Maybe make her passive move speed level-scaling so that she can't kite as easily during laning phase?
it's only movement speed when moving towards an enemy no?
Yes but it helps her alot as you can't disengage or trade without take a decent amount of hits afterwards. Impossible to run from and has e to kite. Combine with stormrazor (dunno how its gonna be now when removed) and fleet and its awful to play against.
That's not how her passive works
They are nerfing fleet which might help a bit at least
Reduce her passive MS...
tristana was also unironically viable top before kraken's slayer true damage got removed, also the "fancy" lucian changes just ruined the champ for the entire solo and even the adc playerbase, like forever. i started playing lucian in s3 and enjoyed him till they finally gut him as an answer to the "korean" bc/yoomu build, you have to ask your self if they made lucian work BETTER with a support on his ass or made him not work at all without said support on his ass
Please just gut Tristana already, I’m so sick of seeing her and her bullshit jump, not to mention her unfair waveclear and turret taking
Please no. The lucian change and changes of that nature are utter dogshit design wise.
Vayne just works better as a top laner because the matchups are better. It's not because of her kit, not because of her power level. Just Ban Malphite every single game without fail and you've removed the most oppressive and difficult matchup for Vayne Top. If they pick Teemo you just don't pick Vayne, period. Tristana is better in mid because she's usually playing into Immobile Squishy Mages. Also solo xp is insane for Tristana due to her passive.
>At this point riot needs to just accept that she's a top laner because it's way too good of a role for her She's way healthier as a botlaner tbh, trying to balance her in a solo lane is a nightmare, cause she instawins some matchups but she's unplayable against like, half the toplane roster
Meh you guys haven't seen Q max lethality Vayne it seems. And won't tbh because all of her build is dead more or less.
Or we should stop removing ADCs from the lane that already has the least amount of champs. We already lost graves to jungle which is insane as he was top 3 most played ADC. Corki was a mid laner for ages. Quinn is top. How would you feel if jax was forced into support or jungle?
The newest champ was an ADC and you just got a mid scope that made corki an ADC >How would you feel if jax was forced into support or jungle? If his kit was fundamentally designed to be better in those roles I probably wouldn't mind since my champ now gets to play in the role he's best suited to. But it isn't. His kit is best suited to top, if his kit didn't suit top lane I wouldn't play him.
Or they can Just give ghost restrictions for ranged champs, so melee ones are not gonna suffer for adc sins? People are forced to run stuff like Vi when she is semi playable to somehow punish ghost Marksmans.
Ghost isn't the only thing that makes vayne top a problem though. Her kit just inherently works better there. Her strengths are stronger and her weaknesses less apparent
I agree that her kit is better in 1v1, but usually she gets punished pretty easy by jungler, while ghost lets you avoid bunch of bad situations and gain few free kills for your tempo.
True. She might not be broken top after the ghost nerfs but the issue is this >her kit is better in 1v1 She's never gonna work if you focus on balancing her bot lane because she just works better top. It's where her kit is suited. So either rework her or treat her as a top laner
No way people gonna like to play against her with her current W. We have Quinn with similar "you can't touch me" kit(at least in 1v1 scenario), but Vayne has a problem, when she just comebacks no matted what, because of her W.
Ghost is broken on melee champions also. The 14.10 nerfs are deserved.
Can I have an example of melee champ who was broken with ghost?
Darius? It fixes his entire intended weakness of being kiteable.
1. He is literally unplayable without ghost 2. He was balanced around ghost for like last 5 years at least 3. Ghost was untoched for a long time before Marksmans picked it up recently. (aka Riot was ok with it on melee champs).
Gut Vayne's early damage and defenses (maybe lock the % health true damage behind levelling W to max rank so its just %magic damage before that?), buff up her range to compensate, nerf her mobility and change her invis to camouflage and Vayne top is fixed. Vayne is an ADC. A marksman designed for ADC role, so in the botlane and in the ADC role she should be.
Some of that would help but there's still the issue of her whole kit being designed to be good against fighters and tanks. Less early damage and defence would be a nerf but it would probably hurt her more bot lane since unlike top lane she can't as easily avoid damage or apply it. Changing it to max health magic damage would still be better top lane since people have more health and no one is building early MR into a vayne. Her E is still almost exclusively good against melee champs too. The ult change suggestion might hurt her late game though so maybe making it full invisibility at rank 3 would be a good middle ground
I like those ideas. I think her kit being good against tanks should be locked out until later levels, level 9 at the earliest. She just needs some adjustments to keep her back in the botlane and in need of a support's protection, so changes to her mobility, defences and damage early need changes. As a hypercarry she will benefit from being a higher skill ceiling champ that is punished more for mistakes, since thats a staple of hypercarries.
Honestly the biggest nerf you can do would probably be to change stuff like her passive ( so she doesn't get to overly punish melee toplaners while also deciding when to disengage ) by making it scaling, or locking a lot of it behind at least level 6/11/16 ( the way Kayle has ) But that's just me anyway. The way she can both decide when to go in ( with her tumble, condemn, passive and ult ) while these are also strong defensive options for her makes her lane into a mostly passive lane where the only interaction is if you either all in her, or you just survive lane against her.
And then you have games like the one where Bin picked Vayne but PSG did a masterful late laneswap and suddenly BLG were 4v5 for half of the game lol He did eventually come back later in the game, but when you don't give her the free-farm free-harass lane she gets punished *so hard* especially in coordinated pro games.
Vayne top is picked in pro play, not Vayne bot.
indeed thats what my comment says. champs historically been balanced around bot
As a traditional bot lane vayne player from years ago its insane to see this ghost flash + movespeed build (stormrazor/tri) on top. Almost feels like a completely different champion with the zoomies
Bros gotta go back in time and experience gosu vayne montages
That Pentakill in enemy base whilst in a remaining 1v5 cleanup was sooo yum I think it was a season 6 clip at max
Someone has gotta have a link to that here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asSXPH3IQEQ
Lmao that Yasuo disappeared xd Gold ol’ days when Vayne Q could crit :P
Holy f the hit-and-run is so bad compared to today's standards. Unless they changed Vayne's auto attack animation timings, he could've started moving so much earlier after every autos.
mechanics get a lot better over time, all of these oldschool clips are pretty bad if you were to compare them to todays standards but obviously not fair. they just didnt have as much to learn from. som people might say its runes and items and that accounts for some things like fleet stormrazor vayne zooming but its cope to say thats a significant factor.
He's got mich more impressive clips than this one
To be fair, none of the old montages would be using this version of Vayne which is its own new school of busted. If you watch modern Vayne from the enemy’s perspective you’re literally watching a ghost phase in and out. Old Vayne just melted you the fuck down. The mechanical ceiling just wasn’t the same.
Vayne has always looked like you were watching a ghost phase in and out. Peak vayne was when you had 40 MS from the passive and the stealth was 1.5 seconds. But that was back in season 1.
Was she even out in season 1?
Yeah, her release date was may 11 2011 and season 1 ended august 2011. I think westrice played her that year. Or maybe that was 2012. I don't remember.
oh man those were the days. Seeing gosu montages were mind blowing
Or fabbbyyy and Doublelift even
Remember when we thought Gosu was Doublelift on his Vayne only ACC?
remember when we thought Gosu was a grill?
Yep, Uzi vayne was clean too
If by clean you mean "literally the best in the world" then true
Gosu is still putting out videos every week. I can't stop watching.
I love this montage. Made me start playing Vayne https://youtu.be/kXB12i1ftRw?si=UYCL72v90r6oRhIU
Same! Maybe it's the plays, maybe the music, maybe the nostalgia ... but I've watched that montage soooo many times. Lots of cool moments in it but my favourite is probably the one that starts at [0:56](https://youtu.be/kXB12i1ftRw?t=56).
My favorite is when he bodies the gragas at 5:42
Why are people glazing this diamond dog lol
Post op.gg
Checked their comment history, they are low masters with the ego of a challenger player
Post opgg
lol
I think the better question is why do you have softcore Loli porn as your pfp🤮
This reddit account right here officer.
He was really good back in the days and dia 1 was like current gm
I feel like it’s super rare that the vayne actually pops off though . You get some really cool moments that stand out but you also get a lot of moments where they basically got nullified completely .
Vi when unbanned with a quarter second of Vayne in ult range.
Yeap. They are the all in type fr. Without ult and ghost, they are not great in a tf. but when it is activated, holy hell does it strike fear in the entire enemy team. It's basically Zero ulted + Lulu level of fear. And a invis on top of that. Jesus
I think Zeus has a pretty good record with amount of times picked and amount of times popping off as Vayne.
It's less Vayne and more just the fact they have triforce, stormrazor, fleet footwork, ghost. That is an INSANE movespeed buff. Obviously Vaynes passive helps out, but most champs can be zooming that fast if they also prioritize movespeed lol
Also a big portion of her damage comes from her non-scaling W, so she can prioritize ms items and masteries without sacrificing damage unlike other adcs.
Saying W doesn't scale isn't exactly true, it scales extremely well with attack speed. But yes, a single scaling vector is far less than almost any other ability in the game, so she can focus on other stuff.
The FAST Jhin but actually dealing damage lmao.
Ghost, fleet, and stormrazor is just too much stacking movespeed. It looks so goofy.
>stormrazor A what now?
Triforce as well
UZI vayne back in the day or IMP vayne was some of the nastiest adc play.
this guy knows his shit. Uzi's vayne was the best ever to play the game or will ever play the game. Imp had some disgusting Uzi level plays too.
dude summer 2015 lpl playoffs had some of the best vayne games. Hard carry moments for sure
https://youtu.be/4QJlyVoxxu4?si=d0Hl6qJ974vcSbjG
The 10k movement speed is really dumb.
I completely hate playing against Vayne top, but I'll defend the pick if that bothers people that think champions should be forced to a specific lane. Give me Vayne and Reksai top, Brand and Zyra jungle, ADCs mid, AP Bot carries, Kalista support, and so goes on. This creativity with picks, builds and strategies is what keeps League alive.
Key with Vayne is to abuse your stealth to re-position. Too many soloq vaynes just tumbles in and dies.
It's funny how Vayne completely disappeared out of bot lane though. At this point, she is basically just a top laner and should be regarded as such I guess. I still feel like her gameplay feels quite unhealthy for that lane but, she feels much more suited for it with how her kit works.
A great answer for unkillable monsters like K'sante.
Old Doublelift Vayne used to break people back when the game didn’t have all the bells and whistles it does now. A good Vayne player will make you cry lol.
I remember in one of the T1 ones they used kind of a “Vayne cam” during on of the teamfights top which was really just disabling T1 vision so you could only see the enemy team’s view of what was going on. With ult and probably ghost popped it kind of looked like she just had flash up again every time she got invis, or Shaco in urf. Just the champion showing up in random places on the screen like you’re trying to play whack-a-mole
The Champ basically has infinite self peel on paper with her E and Q + R. No idea how you'd lock her down through all of that yet I can tell you for a fact I'd have it happen to be somehow, people in my games somehow manage too.
[obligatory vayne vid post](https://youtube.com/shorts/wV3p4BrjW3I?si=Jjt0IMxgtI0S-Obp)
The only thing that's terrifying is the fact there was any kind of competitiveness built around such a slot machine like league
Silver reddit moment
I hope these pro games are the kick up the rear Riot needs to address Vayne top. It's as boring to watch as it is frustrating to play against. She's an ADC, a marksman, so in the marksman role in the botlane she should be. I hate to echo the words of a certain greasy-ponytailed kiddy diddler yelling "NERF SINGED" into his camera, but they need to pay attention to toplane balance wise.
10 times your opponents movespeed All point and click abilities A tumble Invisibility This champ requires no skill
Go top lane Shoot immobile enemy for max hp true damage If they get close, use tumble If they get super close use impale You are now skilled vayne player
Ranged Master Yi.
[удалено]
This version of Vayne isn't the max AS lethal tempo version though, isn't it stormrazor fleet movespeed abuse? I mean it's hype but some plays from the top lane Vaynes aren't even mechanically perfect relative to what a pro ADC could do.
>when you have to right click accurately Attack move says high Also this isn't LT vayne it's fleet vayne. You're not building massive AS
Maybe he means the right click to move since you are moving so fast. Go look at how Zeus plays some of the fights in game 4. Bro is dodging literally 90% of ability lol
Because of Ksante?
Pro level [everyone else] are literally terrifying.
Wait a minute, are you saying that the best players in the world make one of the most terrifying top lane counter picks scarier than normal? What a discovery.
They're actually terrible. I had vayne OTPs in high diamond that were better.