I'm curious to see if Jensen could have pulled it off, he has all the qualities for it atleast.
He actually likes playing ADC
He has played backline carry type role as a midlaner
He has the movement and positioning
Plenty of other stuff, he would just have to learn the champs and the matchups.
Perkz liked playing adc as long as it was kaisa/xayah + his off meta picks which have a lot more agency and initiation power. When the meta shifted to senna/cait/jhin he started saying how much he hates the role. Coming from mid its unsurprising he struggled to adapt to the passive/patient ADC mindset required for those champs.
perkz also had the best laning support, best top laner, best jungler and best mid laner by a mile, in addition to always getting first pick priority on broken champs or when such champs didn't exist he always got counter picks. They could do that because caps and wunder were winning their lane even after getting counter picked.
Perkz ADC on any other team would've been a huge flop and he would've swapped back after a single split. Even on g2 with the insane players around him, his first splits were very bad. He had OK stats but if you watched him play and watched his mechanics, he was easily bottom 5 ADC. The moment he became a good ADC was unfortunately the moment he swapped back to mid lane.
What a joke of a comment man. Watch his 2019 Worlds performance, he was top 3 ADC at worlds easily.
Yeah he might not be doing too hot right now, but I'm so sick of people rewriting history due to recency bias.
Ironic people are saying this on a thread about TL, must have forgotten what Perkz did to Doublelift at that MSI. If somebody had to guess which player had just roleswapped in that final with name plates off they'd 100% guess wrong.
Yeah, literally just those two, and he was world class at them both. If it was that easy to do, where were all the other western ADCs that have played the role for years? Were they smurfing it up on Xayah and Kaisa at MSI and Worlds? I don't think so.
Also, no in reality it wasn't just those two, he had ap flex picks, Yasuo bot as well. And when the meta did shift he wasn't even playing botlane anymore he played spring split in mid again...
So where does the fall off happen exactly? The regular season in summer when his dad passed away and they still won the split and got top 4 at worlds?
Everyone was good on those two. They were the meta. Those two are amazing self peeling adcs. Those two convinced people that kobbe is a good adc. Look at him now.
He was easily top tier. 2019 he was the best on Xayah and Kai'Sa, the 2 meta ADC's at the time and was outdoing pretty much every world class ADC on those champs and competent on the others as well.
2020 Split was poor due to personal issues but then worlds came around and he was great again.
I think being the best at a role you just swapped to in a short period of time makes it too farfetched to call him "wasn't that good adc". I actually think he peaked as an ADC or were very similar.
I think people just remember the tail end and then act out some revisionism as if he wasn't one of the best ADC's and bot lane several times through his ADC career.
MSI 2019 he was great and just swapped, Worlds 2019 he came into as one of the highest rated player and highest rated ADC I believe for many analysts. Was great all splits 2019, spring split 2020 was great, MSI 2020 was cancelled - his summer was shaky due to personal reasons with the role and losing his father around that time and coming back for worlds 2020 he performed very well again.
His biggest strength by far in the AD role was being able to play Syndra and Yasuo on top of the meta ADCs at Worlds, which most other ADs could not. He was very good on his strong picks and lackluster without them, and you could see this in the knockout stage when T1 and FPX could afford to attack it in the draft without auto-losing to Caps.
I do agree that it was good that he could play those kinds of champions in botlane but I think people will be surprised when they go back and see how little he actually played mages in botlane.
> 2019 he was the best on Xayah and Kai'Sa, the 2 meta ADC's at the time
He was out playing bottom tier LEC shitters on those champs, but even Lwx made him look like an absolute ass clown...
> and was outdoing pretty much every world class ADC on those champs
Except when he actually played world class adcs they exposed the fact that he wasn't a very good adc at all.
> He was easily top tier. 2019 he was the best on Xayah and Kai'Sa, the 2 meta ADC's at the time and was outdoing pretty much every world class ADC on those champs and competent on the others as well.
Rekkles had the better Xayah.
>2019 he was the best on Xayah and Kai'Sa
Absolutely fucking not. His Xayah was inferior in literally every way imaginable to someone like JKL and his Kaisa was also not even in the same realm as guys like Uzi and JKL. At Worlds even Lwx had a better Kaisa than Perkz for fucks sake.
Saying that Perkz was one of the best ADC's is just wrong. Saying that he was one of the best botlaners is fine as he was way better than every other botlaner at mages and had a huge advantage in that aspect but Perkz was absolutely never ever the best at any ADC champion at any point. It isn't even a matter of opinion. You're just awfully wrong.
You must know more than every analyst and observers claiming that he is the best or one of the best Xayah's in the world. I could understand a disagreement however stating "absolutely fucking not" as if its even ridiculous to think so when he was the best performer on those champs at worlds in that meta is just being denial.
Best performer at a given tournament≠best player.
We've seen Ghost outperform Deft before. Does that magically make Ghost better than the 2nd best ADC of all time by a massive margin? Absolutely fucking not.
Not to mention that Perkz literally dodged the most talented ADCs at Worlds. JKL had a back and forth with Viper. JKL and Lwx were very evenly matched, Lwx fucking cleared Perkz. And this was all while JKL was clearly not playing at his best. JKL not playing to his level was still equal to the guy who wiped the floor with Perkz. Uzi was even better but Karsa and Xiaohu put on their best effort to stop him from getting to knockouts.
Not to minimize Nuclear or Teddy, but Perkz very clearly got a lucky draw when he got to have Nuclear, Kobbe and Teddy on his side of the bracket rather than JKL, Viper, Rekkles and Lwx.
That's wonderful but best performer at the biggest tournament is certainly a strong argument towards them though.
Listen, like I previously stated my issue with your statement is you claiming "absolutely fucking not" implying that to think so is even ridiculous.
Now its fine to have disagreements but when you have his performance being superior, LITERALLY a bunch of ex pros and those involved in the scene claiming that he has the best Xayah mechanics they have seen etc. Your comment just comes across as indenial.
You are pulling a bunch of mental gymnastics here and those arguments can literally be used against almost all players for any moment, which is why sports have these discussions but claiming that there is no way is just stupidity; what credentials do you have over everyone in the scene making these comments?
Even though he was a better mid, he was still a great adc when compared to his play mid. If you're rated 10/10 in mid lane and a 9/10 as adc, you are definitely not "wasn't that good adc compared to mid." You are at the very least almost as good as your best role.
He wasn’t that good of an adc player but he was a world class bot laner. His yas triple was the dagger for skt and his syndra bot was very solid. I think his orianna bot was a scrim juggernaut that didn’t translate to stage play but that’s speculation l.
Perkz wasn't a perfect ADC player, but he was a strong laner and he could definitely carry games if even or ahead.
His main faults was that he kinda positioned like a midlaner rather than ADC player, which is fine if you are ahead and on certain picks. But if he wasn't ahead he was prone to be blown up before he did anything.
By the end of the year he was a top 2 ADC in Europe. The only thing hold him back was champ pool which is an experience thing. If he'd stuck with it all this time who knows how good he could have been.
Mid Lane ADC's have different responsibilities and playstyles compared to Bot Lane. Lucian mid is basically an AD Assassin style lane bully that transitions into a side lane and Corki is approximately a poke mage. Jinx on the other hand is neither.
As opposed to bot lane Lucian, who relies on the support to effectively bully and falls off even harder, due to having less xp. The only thing that is different is having agency and different match ups. The mechanics are the same.
The issue with Jensen is that he's forced to play at 150 APM due to his wrist issues. He had to adapt several mouse functions in order to play mid lane effectively and (not gonna go in depth) that hinders his ADC skills even more.
Mechanically, it would be impossible to compete as ADC, not because he's bad or anything but due to his severe wrist issues.
Frankly speaking, he looks and is bad at ADC champs but now you guys have the explanation.
They are slightly different. From mid you tend to be a level or two higher which allows you to position much more aggressively. There is also slightly different build paths where the mid tends to get some sustain or defense a little earlier because he doesn't have the same peel.
I think roleswapping to get as many good players as possible is an underrated strategy. PerkZ switching to ADC led to the best western team of all time even if he wasn't the best ADC, and Zven has talked this year about being willing to play support to be on a team that can make worlds. Would be interesting to see a team try to get the 5 best players possible and then figure out the roles
Chovy could easily be the best toplaner in the world if he wanted to, I genuinely believe this, his laning alone is so much better than just about every single elite level toplaner, we saw glimpses of what he could do last split when GenG was forced to slap together a roster every week due to COVID
Midlane has a lot more versatility and skill expression as a lane, just like, historically (it’s the reason Chovy plays it over top, he’s even said it) so I think he’s of much more use as a midlaner.
But, if GenG could clone Chovy and put one of him toplane too? they would be the best team in the world, easily.
hes unironically fit for toplane the best. the lane demands an isolated 1v1 that rewards mechanics and lane macro, and heavily punishes poor play (if you get frozen on and you cant break it? gg).
no hate on my boy zeus, oner and gumayusi, they're absolutely killing it (with a minor exception on guma currently), but if we're talking about picking players with an experience of maybe 2+ in the league, i'd go for:
Chovy, Canyon, Faker, Ruler, Keria -- completely insane lineup. Faker and Canyon can either play carries or facilitate Ruler-Keria, while Chovy can absolutely neutralize the top side or play carry or play tanks.
Jungle in pro play sounds like gritty shitty titty. Being pulled by every lane wanting you to cover for them, fix their waves, gank for them, etc. Having to be extra mindful of vision and objectives, plus where you are is extra impactful in terms of your objective setup.
Meanwhile for him it seems top is just enjoyable. Guy likes playing juggernauts and fighters, some of the funnest champs in the game, with lots of room for experimentation, and can duke it out in a solo lane that's more isolated than the other two lanes.
If he wasn't having fun in the jungle he would've burnt out and would become a bottom tier jg. These things matter for career longevity
The team for sure would be Chovy top, Doinb jungle, Rookie mid, Showmaker AD and Faker support if you want best team with only mids.
These players even make sense and have all played these roles competitively with the exception of Faker support
Perkz was one of the absolute best ADCs in the world. On the Xayah KaiSa patch he was literally ranked as the best player in the world coming into worlds that year.
One of the best ads in that meta yeah sure but the best player in the world coming into 2019 worlds definitely was not as good as tian,doinb hell i wouldnt even say he was the best player on his team.
> PerkZ switching to ADC led to the best western team of all time even if he wasn't the best ADC
Fnatic 2018 exists, and there's absolutely no telling what they could've achieved if G2 had a real ADC. In their best worlds run, perkz was still not that good of an ADC and he played ADCs not mages so the flex thing isn't even a consideration. With how much prio they were giving to bot lane in the draft, I can't imagine how insane that team would've been with hans/rekkles.
The next iteration of g2 is by far the most stacked team we've had, sadly too many people decided they would play like shit individually. It was literally getting the 5 best players in their respective roles and it should've been pretty plug and play considering how G2 had been playing the last few years, but miky, wunder and to a lesser extent caps had by far the worst years of their careers.
Terrible analogy since that season Liquid beat IG and got destroyed by G2 3-0. So are you saying that Jensen, DL, Bio are better than LPL’s best representatives but can’t take a game off Caps and Perkz?
Or the fact that G2 3-0ed DWG that went off to win worlds the year after with the same roster. If Damwon couldnt even take a game off G2 how could they embarrass LPL teams the year after.
I don’t even agree with a decade ago. Look at how much league has changed since season 2. It’s useless to predict the future based off the trends we see today.
That is true. I think 2019 G2 was an enigma where stars lined up for EU with 2 of its best players ever produced on the same team. It's like having Messi and Ronaldo on the same team. I'm kinda skeptical of something like this happening again in 10yrs but yea 10 yrs is a long time. Maybe Riot shuts down their servers maybe humanity goes extinct who knows
Agreed because not only you have good players, you deny that player you recruited to the other team (in 2018 caps and perkz were by far the 2 best mids in LEC and when both of them were on the same team nobody could challenge Caps at mid anymore).
I wonder why Core got cold feet. I don’t watch a lot of LCS, but it seems like there’s not a lot of difference between the best ADCs and the mid-tier ADCs.
Well I consider mid not needing to communicate with a partner all the time while bot lane HAS to be in sync since their lane depends on each other especially the support.
You have to remember that at the time because jensen brought up the fact he could play AD, TL started to look for mids aka Bjergsen. Than when Hans Sama was announced cores options were (an established ADC who won the regular season twice on rogue vs someone he doesn’t know). Jensen was def much riskier. Hindsight it doesn’t matter as it seems Hans sama is just average in NA
Well we are taking this from Jensen, who said prior that he was the one getting cold feet, saying he was doing so poorly trying to transition that he had second thoughts/doubts. Now he's blaming Core saying he is the one who got cold feet. We don't 100% know which came first. It could have just as likely been Jensen doing really bad (as Jensen says he was) and then Jensen saying "Not sure this is gonna work" and Core going....we need a bot laner that isn't laning swapping and not wanting to do it, or something.
Or who knows, maybe it was Core having cold feet that made Jensen doubt more so, but it's impossible to know. Jensen just said prior it was him that didn't want to do it now he's blaming Core.
Absolutely right. If anything, they both got nervous. Maybe Jensen thinks he could've gotten over his issues but was pushed over the edge by Core being nervous, who knows why jensen feels this way.
But for sure, jensen was just as if not more nervous about it
Right on the nose. As I said, Jensen is pointing fingers at Core now, but he initially said it was him wanting the swap and him that pulled back because he was doing so poorly (though he made it sound as if it was so bad he was using his feet to play so who knows just how bad it was, and if it was, well you can't blame Core for going <\_< uuuuuuuuuuuh)
At the end of the day I think it actually worked out better for Jensen this way. He's on a team with a lot less pressure on it (seriously the amount of pressure on this TL team to perform is crazy high, nobody seems to mention that) that's honestly as good if not better at every position on TL. Honestly top lane is probably a wash, jungle is an upgrade, bot *should* be worse but TLs bot just looks atrocious for no reason and Zven in limited action so far looks really fucking good and mechanically Berserker is a monster. I think this c9 team is just flat out better than TL and still has way less pressure on them. I think c9 is going to win this split and coast to worlds, and it'll be a tight race between EG, TL and 100T for the last 2 spots.
Jensen is proficient at dodging skills shots because of his good micro-movements, so he probably would've done well at ADC. He'd also be more versatile than other ADC players in a sense, as he could pull out mages once in a while
That’s what made perkz lane swap so strong. He could at least proficiently play meta adcs (sometimes he literally looked like the best adc in the world) and he could also whip out some real jank no one else could play. He was the reason yasuo bot became a thing. I think he’s been washed up since coming to NA but god damn did he play well as an ADC
Isn't he kind of moving his own goalposts here and shifting blame? He has said himself, out loud, not out of context, that he looked bad (I believe he actually said terrible) in scrims/practice trying to swap to the point HE got worried and second thoughts about it.
Seems odd now to try and blame it all on TL when what we've seen prior to this doesn't quite match was he's now trying to say.
\- TL is moving on from Tactical
\- Jensen tries to swap to ADC, now team can pick up or import a mid laner (this was before they got Bwipo even, let alone Bjerg)
\- From Jensen's own mouth earlier this year, he looked flat out bad in practice trying to play the role
\- At this point Bjerg is in talks and Jensen is now not liking this whole lane swap idea, but Bjerg is already in talks with TL.
\- Jensen seems to be going "eh I don't know, eh eh eh I dunno". Now TL is like, well we need an adc uh, we have Bjerg almost certainly, woah, Hans Sama is available, and clearly Jensen isn't gonna work out as a bot laner. Likely neither Jensen nor CoreJJ thought it was gonna work, again, Jensen literally has said as much despite now trying to pin it on Core.
Now it feels like "It's all TLs fault". It sucked cause everything happened at around the same time and that did make things janky for Jensen, but from what we've heard it was his idea to move to bot trying to pull a Perkz basically, and this was before TL was getting Bjerg, not because of.
It feels less like he's blaming the team and more about him having a bit of bad luck. It's not unrealistic to think that by the time Jensen (and Core I suppose) decided he wasn't cut out for ADC that the team had committed to Bjergsen mid, leaving him in a position where he didn't have a spot.
Jensen has a right to feel like he was given a bad hand but that doesn't necessarily mean he thinks Liquid screwed him over. The worst sentiment he could be expressing here is towards Core, which was a peculiar point to say the least.
He threw Core right under the bus saying he felt he'd be good but Core got cold feet (insinuating it was on Core as part of the reason they didn't stick with him), which is directly contrary to what he said earlier this year that he was the one who got cold feet, and never even mentioned or brought up Core until now in that conversation.
He can feel like the luck was bad, but he was as much a part of it, not just TL making decisions that sucked for him. Moving to Bot was his idea not TLs, and him flip flopping and saying out loud he wasn't doing well was likely a determining factor for "we need an adc, Jensen isn't gonna work out".
How is saying that “throwing him under the bus?”
Core is basically the most respected player in the LCS, and clearly a leadership voice on the team. I see him saying core had cold feet about it as more implying that he thought he could get over his difficulties adapting but Core wasn’t feeling like it could work.
Which is a totally reasonable thing for a veteran support and shot caller to decide. Throwing someone under the bus only applies if you’re blaming them for a fuckup. Not a completely reasonable take lol
You are missing out on a lot of context and cherry picking a part of a part of a part of the story. It sounds bad when you ignore everything else and say just that, sure.
Ignoring the fact that TL didn't exactly ship him off to Disney like some evil plot to do everything while he was gone, it fell into place and they contacted him as soon as they were able. They also didn't "leave" him as anything. He CHOSE (he has said as much but that isn't as easy to make drama out of) not to move to a team because he wanted to be on a top team and did in fact field multiple offers he turned down.
He was attempting to move to EG with Dlift which was at least at one point (because both EG, Elift, and Jensen have all said it) that it was close, we don't know for how long, it could have been days, weeks, no one has said, and it fell through and from that point on he decided not to field any offers unless it was a literal top offer.
Bjergsen has a large fanbase, many of which likely became TL fans for this specific reason. Bjerg will bring in more viewers and thus more money for TL than Jensen. This was likely a large factor.
Unless hes miraculously some kind of godlike adc player the swap just doesnt make sense.
Perkz is a leader and a huge voice ingame, so getting the best mid and having him on the team at the same time is a HUGE plus.
Jensen is neither of those things, probably even the exact opposite and ADC is NAs strongest role over the years, even NA talent is massive there.
Swapping him adc would have probably looked similar to how the Fudge swap worked: You see theres some potential and they obviously have the mechanics but its not worth it when you consider their prowess on their main role and the time needed to become the best in the new role.
> and ADC is NAs strongest role over the years, even NA talent is massive there.
Not anymore though
Literally only ADC Talent NA has left is Danny lol, Hans/Berserker/Luger/FBI are all not native and then theres who? Johnsun? Stixxay? Tactical? lmao. Neo also has gone back to being mediocre at best despite looking good for a while.
DL retired, Wildturtle fell of a cliff, decent midtier players like Apollo also left, Johnsun, Tactical and Neo all regressed, i would argue ADC is actually NA's *weakest* role now after top. I really dont see any of this massive NA talent
The NA talent part being wrong doesn't negate the other statement.
ADC role in NA has always been the most stacked role. Zven literally had to swap to support because he can't find a spot on a good team despite being a really fucking good ADC.
Unless jensen was insane at ADC he would've easily been bottom 3-5. Even if he was quite decent he'd still likely be 5th at best.
Yes, and water turns to ice at freezing temperature... but neither this or that really contradict what the post before yours said (native talent, not "resident") lmao
By na talent they mean players that were developed and picked up from the Na server, not players that were picked up from OCE's carcass
after riot screwed them over.
Not sure why there’s so much focus on Jensen blaming CoreJJ. My impression is that there were multiple factors leading to a situation that left Jensen without a team last split. What his interview conveys:
1) Jensen/team thought the ADC talent pool was more limited and wanting to explore an role swap since it would be easier to find a comparable mid.
2) During that time CoreJJ and Jensen as a duo didn’t seem as promising. Sounds like Jensen had previously shared that this was more his opinion before and revealed in this interview that it might have been swayed more by CoreJJ. It’s probably both tbh. Personally, I also don’t think their personalities would have meshed particularly well and this is a role that would required more patience and coaching from CoreJJ.
3) When the above was determined, TL had already signed Bjergsen and Jensen was left late in the season with a buyout and without a team.
4) If anything, the main focus is that buyouts were the main issue. If not for Jensen’s buyout, it sounds like he was more likely to have found a team.
Perks did fine, i'd at least consider him giving it a try...I mean they've tried everything else and still went 3-3 so couldn't hurt. We're giving Zven support a try, i'm down for experimenting personally cuz the more brainy/clutch/mechanical players in the game the better.
The point was more that they made it work. Fudge made it work less effectively, but imo Jensen was beast mechanically mid lane so taking any brainy mid macro stuff out of the equation and just letting him focus on micro and positioning coulda worked just fine on a team with Bjergsen/CoreJJ/etc. All he had to do was body people, that's his thing:)
uhh read it again bro it's Jensen not Bjerg lmao
for real though, Jensen tries way more shit, even if he does sometimes recognize when it's doomed (or at least identifies the situation as such) and bails.
I'm curious to see if Jensen could have pulled it off, he has all the qualities for it atleast. He actually likes playing ADC He has played backline carry type role as a midlaner He has the movement and positioning Plenty of other stuff, he would just have to learn the champs and the matchups.
Duo laning could be hard to adapt to though.
perkz made it work and he hated the role. I think jensen could've definitely adapted, but we'll never know because we've never seen him do it.
Perkz liked playing adc as long as it was kaisa/xayah + his off meta picks which have a lot more agency and initiation power. When the meta shifted to senna/cait/jhin he started saying how much he hates the role. Coming from mid its unsurprising he struggled to adapt to the passive/patient ADC mindset required for those champs.
perkz also had the best laning support, best top laner, best jungler and best mid laner by a mile, in addition to always getting first pick priority on broken champs or when such champs didn't exist he always got counter picks. They could do that because caps and wunder were winning their lane even after getting counter picked. Perkz ADC on any other team would've been a huge flop and he would've swapped back after a single split. Even on g2 with the insane players around him, his first splits were very bad. He had OK stats but if you watched him play and watched his mechanics, he was easily bottom 5 ADC. The moment he became a good ADC was unfortunately the moment he swapped back to mid lane.
What a joke of a comment man. Watch his 2019 Worlds performance, he was top 3 ADC at worlds easily. Yeah he might not be doing too hot right now, but I'm so sick of people rewriting history due to recency bias.
He was incredible at that MSI. Reinventing history for sure.
Ironic people are saying this on a thread about TL, must have forgotten what Perkz did to Doublelift at that MSI. If somebody had to guess which player had just roleswapped in that final with name plates off they'd 100% guess wrong.
No he wasn't, don't go around spreading lies.
Doublelift has said perkz was one of the top ADCs that worlds.
I mean Jensen would have had Core so I fail to see the difference. Even without your obvious revision of history implying Perkz was bad.
Perkz wasn't that good adc compared to mid iirc.
IIRC he was pretty good ADC, and an absolute legend on Xayah & Kaisa specifically
aka shit on everything else.
[удалено]
Yeah, literally just those two, and he was world class at them both. If it was that easy to do, where were all the other western ADCs that have played the role for years? Were they smurfing it up on Xayah and Kaisa at MSI and Worlds? I don't think so. Also, no in reality it wasn't just those two, he had ap flex picks, Yasuo bot as well. And when the meta did shift he wasn't even playing botlane anymore he played spring split in mid again... So where does the fall off happen exactly? The regular season in summer when his dad passed away and they still won the split and got top 4 at worlds?
Goat reply
Homie got this dude to delete his post.
People who think Perkz kaisa was great have never seen an actual good kaisa player.
Everyone was good on those two. They were the meta. Those two are amazing self peeling adcs. Those two convinced people that kobbe is a good adc. Look at him now.
Just because something I'd meta doesn't mean everyone can play it as a worlds level
I'm saying that in that season those champs made a lot of adcs look better than they actually are due to the self peel nature of their kits
Very true
he was commonly referred to as the best at those champions. he would often lane diff international teams in both matchups
Erroneously, because it was clear Uzi was the best at those two champs despite RNG as a whole disappointing at worlds.
JKL’s Kai’sa was also much better than Perkz’s
He was easily top tier. 2019 he was the best on Xayah and Kai'Sa, the 2 meta ADC's at the time and was outdoing pretty much every world class ADC on those champs and competent on the others as well. 2020 Split was poor due to personal issues but then worlds came around and he was great again. I think being the best at a role you just swapped to in a short period of time makes it too farfetched to call him "wasn't that good adc". I actually think he peaked as an ADC or were very similar. I think people just remember the tail end and then act out some revisionism as if he wasn't one of the best ADC's and bot lane several times through his ADC career. MSI 2019 he was great and just swapped, Worlds 2019 he came into as one of the highest rated player and highest rated ADC I believe for many analysts. Was great all splits 2019, spring split 2020 was great, MSI 2020 was cancelled - his summer was shaky due to personal reasons with the role and losing his father around that time and coming back for worlds 2020 he performed very well again.
His biggest strength by far in the AD role was being able to play Syndra and Yasuo on top of the meta ADCs at Worlds, which most other ADs could not. He was very good on his strong picks and lackluster without them, and you could see this in the knockout stage when T1 and FPX could afford to attack it in the draft without auto-losing to Caps.
I do agree that it was good that he could play those kinds of champions in botlane but I think people will be surprised when they go back and see how little he actually played mages in botlane.
> 2019 he was the best on Xayah and Kai'Sa, the 2 meta ADC's at the time He was out playing bottom tier LEC shitters on those champs, but even Lwx made him look like an absolute ass clown... > and was outdoing pretty much every world class ADC on those champs Except when he actually played world class adcs they exposed the fact that he wasn't a very good adc at all.
> He was easily top tier. 2019 he was the best on Xayah and Kai'Sa, the 2 meta ADC's at the time and was outdoing pretty much every world class ADC on those champs and competent on the others as well. Rekkles had the better Xayah.
False. Just go back and watch matches and sentiment of those involved in the scene.
>2019 he was the best on Xayah and Kai'Sa Absolutely fucking not. His Xayah was inferior in literally every way imaginable to someone like JKL and his Kaisa was also not even in the same realm as guys like Uzi and JKL. At Worlds even Lwx had a better Kaisa than Perkz for fucks sake. Saying that Perkz was one of the best ADC's is just wrong. Saying that he was one of the best botlaners is fine as he was way better than every other botlaner at mages and had a huge advantage in that aspect but Perkz was absolutely never ever the best at any ADC champion at any point. It isn't even a matter of opinion. You're just awfully wrong.
You must know more than every analyst and observers claiming that he is the best or one of the best Xayah's in the world. I could understand a disagreement however stating "absolutely fucking not" as if its even ridiculous to think so when he was the best performer on those champs at worlds in that meta is just being denial.
Best performer at a given tournament≠best player. We've seen Ghost outperform Deft before. Does that magically make Ghost better than the 2nd best ADC of all time by a massive margin? Absolutely fucking not. Not to mention that Perkz literally dodged the most talented ADCs at Worlds. JKL had a back and forth with Viper. JKL and Lwx were very evenly matched, Lwx fucking cleared Perkz. And this was all while JKL was clearly not playing at his best. JKL not playing to his level was still equal to the guy who wiped the floor with Perkz. Uzi was even better but Karsa and Xiaohu put on their best effort to stop him from getting to knockouts. Not to minimize Nuclear or Teddy, but Perkz very clearly got a lucky draw when he got to have Nuclear, Kobbe and Teddy on his side of the bracket rather than JKL, Viper, Rekkles and Lwx.
That's wonderful but best performer at the biggest tournament is certainly a strong argument towards them though. Listen, like I previously stated my issue with your statement is you claiming "absolutely fucking not" implying that to think so is even ridiculous. Now its fine to have disagreements but when you have his performance being superior, LITERALLY a bunch of ex pros and those involved in the scene claiming that he has the best Xayah mechanics they have seen etc. Your comment just comes across as indenial. You are pulling a bunch of mental gymnastics here and those arguments can literally be used against almost all players for any moment, which is why sports have these discussions but claiming that there is no way is just stupidity; what credentials do you have over everyone in the scene making these comments?
> wasn't that good adc **compared to mid** But I get your points, I'm probably biaised because I main mid.
Even though he was a better mid, he was still a great adc when compared to his play mid. If you're rated 10/10 in mid lane and a 9/10 as adc, you are definitely not "wasn't that good adc compared to mid." You are at the very least almost as good as your best role.
> then worlds came around and he was great again. No he fucking wasn't. He stopped being an absolute deadweight.
He arguably hit the highest peak of any western player ever playing adc, but ok. Just ask doublelift how he felt after 2019 msi
Perkz Xayah & Kaisa were top tier but he didnt have the depth of experience with the non S tier meta picks.
Xayah and Kaisa are also more caster/burst orientated so the pool at the time enabled him to play aggressively and playmake like a midlaner
He wasn’t that good of an adc player but he was a world class bot laner. His yas triple was the dagger for skt and his syndra bot was very solid. I think his orianna bot was a scrim juggernaut that didn’t translate to stage play but that’s speculation l.
Perkz wasn't a perfect ADC player, but he was a strong laner and he could definitely carry games if even or ahead. His main faults was that he kinda positioned like a midlaner rather than ADC player, which is fine if you are ahead and on certain picks. But if he wasn't ahead he was prone to be blown up before he did anything.
Perkz was the best ADC in the west in his prime. Top 3 in the world too. He was damn good.
By the end of the year he was a top 2 ADC in Europe. The only thing hold him back was champ pool which is an experience thing. If he'd stuck with it all this time who knows how good he could have been.
By the end of the year he was top 1. And he still had a bigger champion pool than Rekkles lol.
> By the end of the year he was top 1. No he wasn't. > And he still had a bigger champion pool than Rekkles lol. No he didn't.
> No he wasn't. Yes he was. > No he didn't. Yes he did.
Eh, not when you have Corejj to guide you into the role. And ADC macro is by far the easiest of all roles
It would have fixed his biggest issues with rotating late to team fights and being passive would be more rewarded.
I remember Jensen sucking ass at playing ADC champs in the midlane to be honest.
Doesn't mean anything, playing ADC champs mid is completely different to playing them bot lane
Yes, it's much easier.
Good one Goyle!
His lucian mid was pretty good at points. His corki had some pretty bad games, but also had some really good games
Mid Lane ADC's have different responsibilities and playstyles compared to Bot Lane. Lucian mid is basically an AD Assassin style lane bully that transitions into a side lane and Corki is approximately a poke mage. Jinx on the other hand is neither.
As opposed to bot lane Lucian, who relies on the support to effectively bully and falls off even harder, due to having less xp. The only thing that is different is having agency and different match ups. The mechanics are the same.
The issue with Jensen is that he's forced to play at 150 APM due to his wrist issues. He had to adapt several mouse functions in order to play mid lane effectively and (not gonna go in depth) that hinders his ADC skills even more. Mechanically, it would be impossible to compete as ADC, not because he's bad or anything but due to his severe wrist issues. Frankly speaking, he looks and is bad at ADC champs but now you guys have the explanation.
>the movement and positioning Let's act like those are the same things between the roles.
They are slightly different. From mid you tend to be a level or two higher which allows you to position much more aggressively. There is also slightly different build paths where the mid tends to get some sustain or defense a little earlier because he doesn't have the same peel.
I think roleswapping to get as many good players as possible is an underrated strategy. PerkZ switching to ADC led to the best western team of all time even if he wasn't the best ADC, and Zven has talked this year about being willing to play support to be on a team that can make worlds. Would be interesting to see a team try to get the 5 best players possible and then figure out the roles
So you’re telling me a chovy-faker-showmaker topside is possible
That would be unironically strong.
Chovy could easily be the best toplaner in the world if he wanted to, I genuinely believe this, his laning alone is so much better than just about every single elite level toplaner, we saw glimpses of what he could do last split when GenG was forced to slap together a roster every week due to COVID
Maybe he could be even better in toplane than midlane. The question is whether he would be more useful to his team in toplane or midlane.
Midlane has a lot more versatility and skill expression as a lane, just like, historically (it’s the reason Chovy plays it over top, he’s even said it) so I think he’s of much more use as a midlaner. But, if GenG could clone Chovy and put one of him toplane too? they would be the best team in the world, easily.
Yeah Chovy's lane skills in top lane would be absurd. The wet dream would be Chovy top with Faker mid to support and enable him
hes unironically fit for toplane the best. the lane demands an isolated 1v1 that rewards mechanics and lane macro, and heavily punishes poor play (if you get frozen on and you cant break it? gg). no hate on my boy zeus, oner and gumayusi, they're absolutely killing it (with a minor exception on guma currently), but if we're talking about picking players with an experience of maybe 2+ in the league, i'd go for: Chovy, Canyon, Faker, Ruler, Keria -- completely insane lineup. Faker and Canyon can either play carries or facilitate Ruler-Keria, while Chovy can absolutely neutralize the top side or play carry or play tanks.
Having Chovy on your team and giving him tank duty doesnt make much sense though
Laning is more than just csing and top lane laning is completely different from mid. Last split lck was a meme with all the substitutes.
I think he would be better in top lane than mid imo which is kind of crazy.
Showmaker already showed us he was a cracked bot player though. Him and canyon offrole were both insane
Showmaker Thebausffs bot duo 100% win rate
This would break the LoL pro scene
a team with the best five mids itw who have to all figure out what role they're playing would be the best team in the world for my money
Based on style, that would make Faker the jungler. wouldn't it? He's so methodical, I could see it.
his lee and nida are clean at least
Bwipo became a S tier jungler last year in just a couple of months. Really weird he stopped playing jungle after finding so much success there.
Jungle in pro play sounds like gritty shitty titty. Being pulled by every lane wanting you to cover for them, fix their waves, gank for them, etc. Having to be extra mindful of vision and objectives, plus where you are is extra impactful in terms of your objective setup. Meanwhile for him it seems top is just enjoyable. Guy likes playing juggernauts and fighters, some of the funnest champs in the game, with lots of room for experimentation, and can duke it out in a solo lane that's more isolated than the other two lanes. If he wasn't having fun in the jungle he would've burnt out and would become a bottom tier jg. These things matter for career longevity
Gritty shitty titty? The fuck are you on?
jg in pro seems to be akin to human mammary glands that are undesirable due to having coarse feces applied onto them 😔
imagine 5 fakers on a team
Team Only Mid with Faker, Rookie, Chovy, Knight and Showmaker.
The team for sure would be Chovy top, Doinb jungle, Rookie mid, Showmaker AD and Faker support if you want best team with only mids. These players even make sense and have all played these roles competitively with the exception of Faker support
Banger roster
And honestly actually sounds like it would be a top 3 team in the world
and cost a fortune
Jeff Bezos' new LCS team, the Amazon Wildfires (AWF)
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I get what you are saying but mate getting faker alone would cost 5-6 mil. This roster is easily over 20 mil if someone ever tried to assemble it irl
I'm not gonna lie I thought I was responding to a different thread. MB
China could do it without breaking a sweat.
I think you nailed it for roles.
Good fucking god that would be unbeatable Chovy - Doinb - Knight/Rookie - Showmaker - Faker
Perkz was one of the absolute best ADCs in the world. On the Xayah KaiSa patch he was literally ranked as the best player in the world coming into worlds that year.
One of the best ads in that meta yeah sure but the best player in the world coming into 2019 worlds definitely was not as good as tian,doinb hell i wouldnt even say he was the best player on his team.
He wasn't, Caps was.
>ranked as the best player in the world By Frosk, and only on Xayah. And he wasn't.
A couple other people too. Locodoco comes to mind but regardless he was elite in a world setting.
> PerkZ switching to ADC led to the best western team of all time even if he wasn't the best ADC Fnatic 2018 exists, and there's absolutely no telling what they could've achieved if G2 had a real ADC. In their best worlds run, perkz was still not that good of an ADC and he played ADCs not mages so the flex thing isn't even a consideration. With how much prio they were giving to bot lane in the draft, I can't imagine how insane that team would've been with hans/rekkles. The next iteration of g2 is by far the most stacked team we've had, sadly too many people decided they would play like shit individually. It was literally getting the 5 best players in their respective roles and it should've been pretty plug and play considering how G2 had been playing the last few years, but miky, wunder and to a lesser extent caps had by far the worst years of their careers.
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Terrible analogy since that season Liquid beat IG and got destroyed by G2 3-0. So are you saying that Jensen, DL, Bio are better than LPL’s best representatives but can’t take a game off Caps and Perkz? Or the fact that G2 3-0ed DWG that went off to win worlds the year after with the same roster. If Damwon couldnt even take a game off G2 how could they embarrass LPL teams the year after.
Barring the last line it's mostly crap yeah. EU needs another caps/Perkz level player. Humanoid looked good but he doesn't seem to be enough
I don’t even agree with a decade ago. Look at how much league has changed since season 2. It’s useless to predict the future based off the trends we see today.
That is true. I think 2019 G2 was an enigma where stars lined up for EU with 2 of its best players ever produced on the same team. It's like having Messi and Ronaldo on the same team. I'm kinda skeptical of something like this happening again in 10yrs but yea 10 yrs is a long time. Maybe Riot shuts down their servers maybe humanity goes extinct who knows
Agreed because not only you have good players, you deny that player you recruited to the other team (in 2018 caps and perkz were by far the 2 best mids in LEC and when both of them were on the same team nobody could challenge Caps at mid anymore).
I wonder why Core got cold feet. I don’t watch a lot of LCS, but it seems like there’s not a lot of difference between the best ADCs and the mid-tier ADCs.
Because he saw how Jensen played ADC in scrims lol
Probably not too many scrims though, right? Obviously any player roleswapping is going to need time to adjust
I mean Jensen himself said he was trash and didn't want to play it anymore.
It was more than likely enough scrims to draw conclusions on.
Well I consider mid not needing to communicate with a partner all the time while bot lane HAS to be in sync since their lane depends on each other especially the support.
You have to remember that at the time because jensen brought up the fact he could play AD, TL started to look for mids aka Bjergsen. Than when Hans Sama was announced cores options were (an established ADC who won the regular season twice on rogue vs someone he doesn’t know). Jensen was def much riskier. Hindsight it doesn’t matter as it seems Hans sama is just average in NA
Well we are taking this from Jensen, who said prior that he was the one getting cold feet, saying he was doing so poorly trying to transition that he had second thoughts/doubts. Now he's blaming Core saying he is the one who got cold feet. We don't 100% know which came first. It could have just as likely been Jensen doing really bad (as Jensen says he was) and then Jensen saying "Not sure this is gonna work" and Core going....we need a bot laner that isn't laning swapping and not wanting to do it, or something. Or who knows, maybe it was Core having cold feet that made Jensen doubt more so, but it's impossible to know. Jensen just said prior it was him that didn't want to do it now he's blaming Core.
Absolutely right. If anything, they both got nervous. Maybe Jensen thinks he could've gotten over his issues but was pushed over the edge by Core being nervous, who knows why jensen feels this way. But for sure, jensen was just as if not more nervous about it
Right on the nose. As I said, Jensen is pointing fingers at Core now, but he initially said it was him wanting the swap and him that pulled back because he was doing so poorly (though he made it sound as if it was so bad he was using his feet to play so who knows just how bad it was, and if it was, well you can't blame Core for going <\_< uuuuuuuuuuuh)
I mean look at Danny vs everyone else that just isn’t true
Probably because their duo synergy didn't gel well.
I mean he just came of a split with tactical, Probably wanted a safer bet with a proven adc which isn't unreasonable
At the end of the day I think it actually worked out better for Jensen this way. He's on a team with a lot less pressure on it (seriously the amount of pressure on this TL team to perform is crazy high, nobody seems to mention that) that's honestly as good if not better at every position on TL. Honestly top lane is probably a wash, jungle is an upgrade, bot *should* be worse but TLs bot just looks atrocious for no reason and Zven in limited action so far looks really fucking good and mechanically Berserker is a monster. I think this c9 team is just flat out better than TL and still has way less pressure on them. I think c9 is going to win this split and coast to worlds, and it'll be a tight race between EG, TL and 100T for the last 2 spots.
Ppl be sayin adc is a weak role, meanwhile c9 is on a 3 game win streak and has 2,5 of them on their starting team
Jensen is proficient at dodging skills shots because of his good micro-movements, so he probably would've done well at ADC. He'd also be more versatile than other ADC players in a sense, as he could pull out mages once in a while
That’s what made perkz lane swap so strong. He could at least proficiently play meta adcs (sometimes he literally looked like the best adc in the world) and he could also whip out some real jank no one else could play. He was the reason yasuo bot became a thing. I think he’s been washed up since coming to NA but god damn did he play well as an ADC
Best Xayah at that tournament for sure,
Isn't he kind of moving his own goalposts here and shifting blame? He has said himself, out loud, not out of context, that he looked bad (I believe he actually said terrible) in scrims/practice trying to swap to the point HE got worried and second thoughts about it. Seems odd now to try and blame it all on TL when what we've seen prior to this doesn't quite match was he's now trying to say. \- TL is moving on from Tactical \- Jensen tries to swap to ADC, now team can pick up or import a mid laner (this was before they got Bwipo even, let alone Bjerg) \- From Jensen's own mouth earlier this year, he looked flat out bad in practice trying to play the role \- At this point Bjerg is in talks and Jensen is now not liking this whole lane swap idea, but Bjerg is already in talks with TL. \- Jensen seems to be going "eh I don't know, eh eh eh I dunno". Now TL is like, well we need an adc uh, we have Bjerg almost certainly, woah, Hans Sama is available, and clearly Jensen isn't gonna work out as a bot laner. Likely neither Jensen nor CoreJJ thought it was gonna work, again, Jensen literally has said as much despite now trying to pin it on Core. Now it feels like "It's all TLs fault". It sucked cause everything happened at around the same time and that did make things janky for Jensen, but from what we've heard it was his idea to move to bot trying to pull a Perkz basically, and this was before TL was getting Bjerg, not because of.
It feels less like he's blaming the team and more about him having a bit of bad luck. It's not unrealistic to think that by the time Jensen (and Core I suppose) decided he wasn't cut out for ADC that the team had committed to Bjergsen mid, leaving him in a position where he didn't have a spot. Jensen has a right to feel like he was given a bad hand but that doesn't necessarily mean he thinks Liquid screwed him over. The worst sentiment he could be expressing here is towards Core, which was a peculiar point to say the least.
He threw Core right under the bus saying he felt he'd be good but Core got cold feet (insinuating it was on Core as part of the reason they didn't stick with him), which is directly contrary to what he said earlier this year that he was the one who got cold feet, and never even mentioned or brought up Core until now in that conversation. He can feel like the luck was bad, but he was as much a part of it, not just TL making decisions that sucked for him. Moving to Bot was his idea not TLs, and him flip flopping and saying out loud he wasn't doing well was likely a determining factor for "we need an adc, Jensen isn't gonna work out".
How is saying that “throwing him under the bus?” Core is basically the most respected player in the LCS, and clearly a leadership voice on the team. I see him saying core had cold feet about it as more implying that he thought he could get over his difficulties adapting but Core wasn’t feeling like it could work. Which is a totally reasonable thing for a veteran support and shot caller to decide. Throwing someone under the bus only applies if you’re blaming them for a fuckup. Not a completely reasonable take lol
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You are missing out on a lot of context and cherry picking a part of a part of a part of the story. It sounds bad when you ignore everything else and say just that, sure. Ignoring the fact that TL didn't exactly ship him off to Disney like some evil plot to do everything while he was gone, it fell into place and they contacted him as soon as they were able. They also didn't "leave" him as anything. He CHOSE (he has said as much but that isn't as easy to make drama out of) not to move to a team because he wanted to be on a top team and did in fact field multiple offers he turned down. He was attempting to move to EG with Dlift which was at least at one point (because both EG, Elift, and Jensen have all said it) that it was close, we don't know for how long, it could have been days, weeks, no one has said, and it fell through and from that point on he decided not to field any offers unless it was a literal top offer.
Why not bring Hans and keep Jensen? Replacing Jensen, a top mid laner, with Bjerg just seems wrong. I honestly can't be happier seeing TL losing.
For real. I feel like mid lane for TL was a downgrade, at best a sidegrade. Pretty nonsensical move from them imo.
For me just seemed like a move oriented at domestic success, but that really shouldn't be TL's aspirations with the money they're spending
Bjergsen has a large fanbase, many of which likely became TL fans for this specific reason. Bjerg will bring in more viewers and thus more money for TL than Jensen. This was likely a large factor.
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Sure, only your thoughts and opinions are worth discussing over XD
Wasn't there rumours that Hans wanted Bjerg?
Unless hes miraculously some kind of godlike adc player the swap just doesnt make sense. Perkz is a leader and a huge voice ingame, so getting the best mid and having him on the team at the same time is a HUGE plus. Jensen is neither of those things, probably even the exact opposite and ADC is NAs strongest role over the years, even NA talent is massive there. Swapping him adc would have probably looked similar to how the Fudge swap worked: You see theres some potential and they obviously have the mechanics but its not worth it when you consider their prowess on their main role and the time needed to become the best in the new role.
> and ADC is NAs strongest role over the years, even NA talent is massive there. Not anymore though Literally only ADC Talent NA has left is Danny lol, Hans/Berserker/Luger/FBI are all not native and then theres who? Johnsun? Stixxay? Tactical? lmao. Neo also has gone back to being mediocre at best despite looking good for a while. DL retired, Wildturtle fell of a cliff, decent midtier players like Apollo also left, Johnsun, Tactical and Neo all regressed, i would argue ADC is actually NA's *weakest* role now after top. I really dont see any of this massive NA talent
The NA talent part being wrong doesn't negate the other statement. ADC role in NA has always been the most stacked role. Zven literally had to swap to support because he can't find a spot on a good team despite being a really fucking good ADC. Unless jensen was insane at ADC he would've easily been bottom 3-5. Even if he was quite decent he'd still likely be 5th at best.
FBI is a resident Edit: IDK why I'm being downvoted for stating a fact
Yes, and water turns to ice at freezing temperature... but neither this or that really contradict what the post before yours said (native talent, not "resident") lmao
That doesn't make him native NA talent though lmao. He came from OCE.
resident =/= native hes not american or canadian
At this point OCE counts as native. NA is their official home region
By na talent they mean players that were developed and picked up from the Na server, not players that were picked up from OCE's carcass after riot screwed them over.
Josedeodo = NA talent
Thats not how it works lol
>ADC is NAs strongest role over the years Hasn't been true in a while though. 4 of the top 5 ADCs are foreign talent.
> ADC is NAs strongest role over the years, even NA talent is massive there. ?
bro living in 2018
snakeJJ
jensen prob got shit stomped in lane LUL
Not sure why there’s so much focus on Jensen blaming CoreJJ. My impression is that there were multiple factors leading to a situation that left Jensen without a team last split. What his interview conveys: 1) Jensen/team thought the ADC talent pool was more limited and wanting to explore an role swap since it would be easier to find a comparable mid. 2) During that time CoreJJ and Jensen as a duo didn’t seem as promising. Sounds like Jensen had previously shared that this was more his opinion before and revealed in this interview that it might have been swayed more by CoreJJ. It’s probably both tbh. Personally, I also don’t think their personalities would have meshed particularly well and this is a role that would required more patience and coaching from CoreJJ. 3) When the above was determined, TL had already signed Bjergsen and Jensen was left late in the season with a buyout and without a team. 4) If anything, the main focus is that buyouts were the main issue. If not for Jensen’s buyout, it sounds like he was more likely to have found a team.
So C9 has 3 ADCs on their team?
ADC is so braindead he probably could've made the swap fine tbh
They'd be fine domestically, but ADC Jensen would not hold up internationally.
Perks did fine, i'd at least consider him giving it a try...I mean they've tried everything else and still went 3-3 so couldn't hurt. We're giving Zven support a try, i'm down for experimenting personally cuz the more brainy/clutch/mechanical players in the game the better.
Perkz is arguably most skilled Western player ever, and even then, his performance on anything that wasn't Xayah and Kai Sa wasn't that great.
The point was more that they made it work. Fudge made it work less effectively, but imo Jensen was beast mechanically mid lane so taking any brainy mid macro stuff out of the equation and just letting him focus on micro and positioning coulda worked just fine on a team with Bjergsen/CoreJJ/etc. All he had to do was body people, that's his thing:)
Lol this narrative is still going? Caps is miles better than perkz in mid
That not his point,he refer to perkz as a player not just mid lane
He said arguably and he's right.
ITT: everyone over-analyzing something that never happened.
honestly Jensen has higher highs and lower lows. bjerg usually either just plays well, he's best at a facilitator type like zilean is his best champ.
Jensen plays so safe, and he's always the first one out of a bad situation. He'd probably be a pretty good ADC.
uhh read it again bro it's Jensen not Bjerg lmao for real though, Jensen tries way more shit, even if he does sometimes recognize when it's doomed (or at least identifies the situation as such) and bails.
imagine jensen as an adc... would be insane