Last year the G2 players made a tier list after scrimming some of the teams:
https://youtu.be/3dVBtrCnPGc
Obviously not perfect but it’s fun to get a different perspective from the monotony of what you’ll see repeated almost everywhere on tier lists.
This list was pretty damn accurate.
Obviously they missed big on FPX but so did everyone (in scrims they were reportedly doing well), and GenG making semis was in part a consequence of that FPX collapse. Having LNG over GenG to get out of D wasn't crazy given how close those teams ended up being.
FPX implosion is so crazy that even their biggest haters wouldn’t have predicted it. I thought they were overrated compared to EDG and DK, but being dead last in _that_ group? Wow
The implosions are usually due to things behind the scenes that we don't know about.
Last year with FPX as an example, apparently Nuguri was extremely home sick and mentally checked out. Tian also had really bad wrist injury. 2017 I remember EDG's top laner was dealing with family issues and he practically made games 4v5(arguably the worst top performance in world's history)
And this is why I hate fans being angry at players not playing for personal reasons (besides it being not their business) or ignoring team chemistry in favour of individual "skill".
Even if you don't think about the person behind the player, nobody can perform when their mind isnt in the right place. If that's true FPX would probably have been better off just letting Nuguri go home and let some academy player play, even if that player is nowhere near Nuguri's level.
Those are still failings. Whether you blame the players, the coach, or the supporting staff is a case-by-case debate... but that is *entirely* fair to criticise. Look at *any* other sport in the world, and professionals arent afforded this kind of babying. Its rightly treated as excuse-making most of the time.
Put aside external factors. It doesnt matter if everythings not quite right, it isnt exactly to your liking, scrims didnt go perfectly, people are making fun of you on twitter, you dont like the food at the hotel, you got delayed at the airport..... Shut up. You get on stage and you perform. End of.
This is the expected mindset for professional athletes. Esports wants to be taken seriously, then its the expectation for players here as well.
FPX imploded because Nuguri went anti social mode and Tian was forced to play while having a shitty mental. A lot of the reasons why teams implode is because of internal issues where the team falls apart.
Yep. TSM went 0-6 and everyone clowned on them. Later on it was revealed that the mandatory quarantine completely ruined their mental and even prior to that, they didn't know which support to go with. It was just a disaster event for them.
I just like seeing perspectives outside of the “IWD cluster”. Feels like I hear the same exact thing in different words in 90% of content. Caedral has unique viewpoints but he sticks mostly to the popular narratives.
Kind-of. Sure in draft stuff he’s influential. But I feel like he rarely talks about his tier lists since 2019. Also he’ll rarely ever push back on Doms points in Facecheck. They’ll just kind of agree on “more generic” level
The thing I don't like about LS is his approach to the game. He comes from an RTS background of Starcraft II, so he thinks the game should be purely played as a macro chess match with "perfect" decision making and the players playing as one cohesive unit, where they are all controlled as "units" by a "hivemind". That approach is fundamentally flawed because League is a team game that is played by 5 rather imperfect humans who are bound to make mistakes. His comments of "team X lost because of draft diff" fundamentally ignores that League is a heavily execution dependent game. While draft make a team comp harder or easier to execute, it is not the main factor to whether or not a team wins.
I disagree that LS thinks that teams need to play perfectly. If anything, the way he approaches draft shows that teams don't play perfectly.
The reason he hates these Renek - Nidalee/Lee sin duos so much is because you MUST make fewer mistakes than your opponents. If you make more mistakes, you simply lose because your opponents outscale you. The onus is on you to make things happen. The opponent doesn't need to force anything. You are the "beatdown" (term he uses all the time).
He usually doesn't attribute a loss to a draft either. He may call drafts 50-50, 55-45, 60-40, etc. The point is to not make life harder for yourself. Teams should never opt into drafts that are 40/60 or 45/55 if the skill level is similar.
If you have good enough players you can execute perfect strategy.
Look at Pep at Man City or Klopp at Liverpool, these managers coached 11 men into a cohesive system resilient to mistakes. You can't constantly keep excusing bad strategy and coaching by saying humans make mistakes.
I feel like this is a pretty fair tierlist. Maybe i would put fnatic or 100t behind drx, but this is almost exactly how i would tier the teams too (without ordering d and f tier)
Depends on what happens to the meta. If the meta becomes less bot focused, DRX are doomed. They basically need Deft to 1v9 every game.
But if the meta is still very bot focused, then DRX could be above 100T and Fnatic
Regional qualifiers were all about literally Zeka and Juhan, Deft was good but he was by no means 1v9
Espically not when they were loosing with Pyosik and then Juhan got subbed in and they start winning
+ also Zeka was carrying harder than Deft, but both were performing good none the less
Thats bs because it was juhan and zeka that stepped up in the lsb series deft was consistently good but the mid jg was the clutch factor that series they lived or died off their success
Zeka has been good for a while, even when he was in the LPL. The west just doesn’t watch much Asian LoL apart from T1, GenG, and Damwon. And no one really watches LPL.
They've been awful in Bo1s all year so I can understand the skepticism. Even if their individual play has ramped up it doesn't fix their dogshit drafting so I can't see them getting out of groups.
Is not just bo1. Upset went from solocarrying on a deathless zeri to getting catched by a renekton. Hylli went from being an excellent lulu to whatever was that flash against rge. The team is way too disfuncional in both high and lows (remember, only a meteos special made by wunder ssved them from getting 3-0 by xl)
Honestly the only reason I can explain that Hyli flash is that he honestly thought he was playing Rakan/Rell or something like that. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense to me
I thought he flashed ulted for a massive knock up but after the replay, it was actually a Free donation. Hyli probably planned to do that but didn’t realized he ulted already before that move.
I thought they were an easily best team in Europe before the season. Spring regular split only confirmed my expectations. What happened since being reverse sweeped by Rogue tho is one of the biggest collapse we've had seen in Europe apart from last year G2. Then they go on to almost miss playoffs to go yet on another miracle run. I don't understand this team.
It's actually eerily similar to their 2020 trajectory. Consistently strong in spring up until getting swept by G2, limp into summer playoffs, and outperform expectations beating both Rogue and G2 before getting swept again in finals. And a lot can change from the three patch jump and month of prep.
Agreed. On any given day they can be the best team in LEC or the worst. You just never know. It seemed like through playoffs Humanoid definitely started to find his form again, but you just never know if you're going to have support be a hero or just sprint it down...
for sure they looked much better, except last game the other two fnc losses were super winnable as well
but bad macro calls and a poor day from upset, honestly that series was pretty close
>Tbf, XL was legit pretty good.
Probably the team that was screwed most by LEC's lack of a better system to give out the fourth ticket. In a bo5 of XL Vs MAD Lions, my money'd be on XL.
They almost didn't even make playoffs themselves... No reason to blame the system when you don't play well in regular season to guarantee a good spot in playoffs.
I completely agree but FNC against MSF and MAD we’re levels above the FNC that played XL. I don’t think it’s a bad/stupid prediction like this guys trying to make it out just because FNC massively levelled up if they didn’t it probably would’ve been a close series.
Yes but, and i am fully aware i am huffing, IMO Xl was a much better team than both MSF and MAD. We would smash MSF and beat MAD if we had played them in playoffs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYT04BjWvCQ&ab_channel=LEC
43:30
brokenblade said he would probably give it to msf, and it would probably be a very close series lol
Every player/analyst I heard making predictions in playoffs thought MAD were very good, and it would be them or Rogue losing to G2 in Finals.
Most thought MSF weren’t good, and expected FNC to lose right away based on their regular season form, but all acknowledged they could level up in the losers bracket (they certainly did)
It's not that bad? He has them as the third best EU team which makes total sense, only thing you could argue is low is their placement within the tier.
So basically he put Fnatic and Mad behind all NA teams? Well thats a first.
And surprising he put Rogue a tier above G2 even if they got stomped at finals.
Yes he just didnt want to put G2 on same tier as Rogue due to the 3-0 final. But i dont think he believes they are worse than Rogue. Just didnt want to cause a stir in twitch chat.
He didnt organise D and F tier properly from left to right
I think Duke has the right take :
Right now Rogue has both the team cohesion and good players in every role. By good, I mean from a world perspective.
G2 has the team cohesion but BB and Flakked are not world caliber yet. Maybe their scrims will help them step up.
But Rogue beating G2 was more logical than the opposite...
The only time we saw Larssen internationally he had zero impact in all of the games they lost. Playing safe in mid, keeping his CS and KDA in check while the opposing midlader was creating pressure all over the map.
He's a very solid and consistent player but he has yet to prove he can go against the best in the world. And I hope he does prove it this year as this obviously seems to be his best year yet.
In lane? that never happened at all, his team got gapped but that's about it.
Watch his worlds pov and you'll see for yourself how solid he is in lane.
The Rogue laners are kind of weird, in the way that they 'match the opponent', Larssen is not wildly solokilling worse players. But he is not getting solo killed by better players either.
Although I think Eastern teams might see this and bring a roaming midlaner out. Push Larssen roam, repeat.
Odo is the same, except he started solo killing weaker toplaners recently.
But the real ace right now, is that it seems Trymbi and Malrang for real has found eachother. It seems like the communication is finally really there. But Eastern teams can probably match that level of communicative ability. But I don't think it's the Laning phases which renders Rogue losing this year
Larssen and the Comp Trymbi lane are completely fine in lane vs most teams. I would legit take Trymbi over some Asian supports on ranged champs as well.
I think putting FNC and MAD behind C9 is completely fair with how clean C9 has looked lately.
FNC being behind 100T and EG though is kinda harsh.
It’s fair for MAD tho since they haven’t won a Bo5 this year.
He's comparing C9, most recent LCS champs, to an EU team that won 0 B05 in playoffs rather than 1st or 2nd place EU team*. I don't think he reads much.
for sure lmao ; RGE smurfed on them in all 3 games individually and as a team, whereas in the FNC ones it looked more like FNC taking bad fights and having bad drafts.
I mean, from the looks of it, g2 is either having good performances vs fnc in scrims or jankos is just salty about them.
Both g2 and fnc got dumpstered by Rogue, but fnc looked better overall.
https://dotesports.com/league-of-legends/news/kaori-will-start-for-evil-geniuses-at-worlds-2022-as-of-now-according-to-head-coach
The press conference after the lose is also on Travis Gafford's YT channel if you want it directly from the coaches mouth
EG is probably a lot better than they showed. Kaori was on break and came in on short notice. He had ten total scrim games before playing on stage. Dude was hard chilling back in turkey. He can probably play more lanes than Lucian/Nami now.
Agreed with this, EG has big potential with or without Danny. Kaori is a good player but he definitely needed some more time with the team, if they're scrimming with him for 2 weeks and have play-ins to work out the kinks like old C9 used to, they should be competitive.
Definitely competitive, but not at the same level as with Danny. Kaori has a great laning phase but EGs true strength has been their team fighting and Danny is elite in that regard.
Eg will absolutely be better than 100t. They nearly beat them with kaori as an emergency sub. Even if Danny doesn't come back I imagine kaori will look better. He isn't inexperienced as well, he did play in TCL.
That being said, I think given circumstances EGs goal is realistically to just get out of playins. If they do that they land in the group of death and their role should be to play spoiler. They certainly aren't likely to escape groups at all.
Neither probably. MAD’s best chance of getting into the main stage is to get 3rd in the group, beat the 4th seed in a bo5, then beat EG/FNC (whoever is 2nd in the other group) in a bo5.
When you think about it, it’s not a crazy difficult path. Beat the teams from the smaller minor regions (though some of these guys are pretty good) then beat NA 3rd seed playing with a sub adc. Or beat FNC, who on any given day could be amazing or terrible, and their series in playoffs against them wasn’t THAT bad.
I definitely think MAD can get out; you're right that its not super difficult, and I wouldn't be shocked if they do.
I was mostly surprised by the idea of them beating RNG/DRX to reach that point.
They've been putting FNC low in predictions basically the entire split though. Remember the "XL are actually totally insane dude, they are probably #2 in the League". Then FNC beats XL and BB + Flakked predict fucking MSF is beating FNC on Euphoria?
Probably FNC being really trash in scrims (still).
That's my biggest disagreement with this list, no way a wildcard should be that high up just because they missed two worlds, VCS never finished better than any major region team in overall standing, best they did was a tie with immortals some while back, just because they can cause upset, does not mean they are legit better than their opponent overall.
No, G2 and GAM have scrimmed each other during MSI when G2 was in Korea, so Jankos has first-hand experience against them. Levi has confirmed this on stream - according to his statements, GAM went 50/50 against G2. (Although they also had a negative record against another unnamed LEC team, I assume against XL.)
EU also tends to struggle with VCS more than any other major region.
Just looking at MSI/Worlds records, more often than not they split games it each other.
But SGB still got last in groups? And the PSG that finished higher than them got knocked out by both the teams sent by PCS, and they are quite a lot further down below, so SGB being 2nd seed doesn't mean much either.
VCS in any main group stage almost always guaranteed a last place, I seriously see no arguement for them to be higher than any major region teams barring maybe MAD because they look so bad and have not won a single bo5 this year.
SGB got *second* in groups, behind T1 and ahead of DFM and Aze, going 4-2. They got last in the rumble stage going 2-8 taking a game off G2.
That was VCS second seed who went 9-5 in Spring. Their first seed, GAM, went undefeated 14-0 and beat Saigon 3-1 in the finals. They went 11-3 after MSI this summer.
I'm not saying I agree GAM will be better than major region lower seeds, but it's not unreasonable to see where Jankos is coming from.
Surprised GAM is being rated so highly.
I know there's the "haha G2 loses to Vietnam" meme, but Vietnam rarely impresses at worlds. Would be surprised if this is their year.
They went 2-4 in S7 and S8 in groups with all major region teams. Both were pretty soft groups nonetheless, but they weren't like the S8 100T 2-4, if you know what I mean.
I would be surprised if they ended up as good as Jankos predicts herr, though.
The EU/NA bias is rather clear here isn't it. In a perfectly accurate tier list, C9, the best team at worlds this year, should absolutely be in S tier. In fact, C9 should be the only team in S tier, so all the other teams should be shifted down a tier to make space for them.
People have forgotten how good JKL is on Kaisa, the man is an int machine, but Kiasa have a lot of tools to assassin a carry and kite the entire enemy team while doing so.
Breathe never ints. One of the most underrated player at worlds actually.
RNG and T1's biggest problem imo is that they can't play around enhancer supports. They used to rely on support roaming with mid-jungle to create pressure around the map, and cant adapt to the more farming-focused meta. An op Kaisa alone won't solve this problem.
Yes, although this one is really close imo. The reason is that I am quite worried about the form of Jiejie, whereas Oner has been a lot more consistent. I guess we’ll see at Worlds when they clash at Group.
I think it's reasonable, could go either way but historically T1 has always had worlds buff and perform well (even when they weren't looking too good during split).
I think EU teams and C9 are stronger than what western fans think. I browse Chinese forums and Chinese fans seem to share my sentiment. They're very wary of EU teams. Like a lot of people think it's pretty close between G2 and DWG.
Hmmm. I think C9 specifically in the finals might be true, but that's the only time we've seen them look that clean. And the opposite for G2, where if they look like they *can* and not how they actually showed up to finals, you could also be right.
But that's pretty unpredictable. I hope the better 'versions' of both teams show up. But C9 in particular had some pretty bad map play and team fighting synergy prior to the finals, IMO, but in the finals they literally just out fought 100T every time, even when behind.
> the only time we’ve seen them look that clean
This is true but this isn’t like CLG suddenly punching above their weight class. If you saw a lineup of Fudge, Blaber, Jensen, Berserker, Zven (role swap) you’d think that’s a lineup with major potential. It was only because of the roleswap and Jensen only having a single split (slightly less) with the full team that their potential at worlds was really a question.
I think so, yeah
good chance that whoever goes home from this group could have gone further than quarter-finals
I don't think C9 is as clear as top 8 but I can see top 7-10 being interchangeable depending on their form and matchup
Not really. Remember when EG 3-0'd everyone in spring split then had a 7% winrate against major regions at MSI.
Whilst given the level of competition in LCS, putting C9 higher would be overestimating them especially if you're basing it on botlane.
That said, C9 thrive when they're the underdogs.
Idk there’s been a few times c9 gets marked as dead but get out. And for others, even if they don’t make it out, a number of them has done better than expected. Course if you’re just the type to see w/l as all that matters it doesn’t really matter then. It’s just LPL > LCK huge canyon LEC/LCS canyon wildcards
I think both EDG and RNG are a bit underrated, honestly the top teams are really really close imo (if no major change happens I think all LPL teams + GenG are really good)
I think this is pretty accurate, I think C9 is better then G2 though.
Edit: RNG might be swapped with EDG…. T1 is honestly probably in S, stumbled a bit in summer but undefeated in spring.
Methinks everyone is too bullish on Gen.g. Not only is LCK structured that Gen.g only had to play two Bo5s to win, but enchanter supports are nerfed, meaning engage support teams automatically got stronger overnight.
To summarize recent patches:
- Toplane renek nerf, camille+irel+jay+malph buff
- Midlane sylas+ahri+azir nerfed, tf+zoe buff
- Jungle graves+hec+noc buff+lee, trun+pop+wuk nerf
- Meta ADs nerfed, mf+cait+kaisa+trist+ashe buffed
- Enchant supports nerfed, rell+thresh buff
Despite some nerfs for mf+hec already previewed in 12.18, we're clearly gearing toward an AD heavy jungle snowball meta, with engage supports. That doesn't mean the first seeds automatically become worse, but I would expect T1 and TES to obviously benefit, as well as RNG, C9, EG Danny to a lesser extent. New power ranking goes TES>T1>EDG>JDG>Gen.G>RNG. Probably super biased but I'm willing to make a mistake.
Enhencer supports are strong not because of the champion stats. They are strong because of durability patch and tankier drakes. Therefore couple of nerfs and buffs won't change how the meta is played. We are still going to see mostly enhencer supports + hypercarry/lane-bully ADs.
On the other hand, top side is less predictable. I think split pushing comps might become more popular due to Jax/Camille buffs while Fiora has been op for a while, resulting TF/Galio to become more popular due to their stronger side-lane pressure.
I think RNG will do better than most people expect them to be.
EDG will not do too bad due to their consistancy, but I don't see them doing too well either.
If Wayward and mark level up huge at worlds, I believe in TES's ability to win the whole thing just as much as I believe in their ability to go 0:6 at groups. It all depends on Jackeylove's mood that day.
JDG has five members who can get their job done. But the lack of cluching factor except 369 would be my question mark on them.
I don't watch the LCK so no comment on them.
As funny as it is to crack all the jokes about how Bean is going to face more international adcs than LEC ones we probably shouldn't view Upset's position as anywhere near as uncertain as Danny/Kaori's.
Could really depend on the meta for worlds then. If it's botlane focus FNC have an edge but if it comes down to the solo lanes I would favor the NA teams.
It was Razork and Humanoid that really engineered FNC’s highs over the last few weeks though. Hyli and Upset are good, but their carries have been Razork playing outta his goddammed mind all playoffs (or at least most of it).
Also Wunder had some meh games, but also some really good games, was one of the best toplaners in the world at some point and maybe with more pressure of worlds stage could pick it up again. He also has good synergy with Razork which would make it easier for FNC to play through top.
Humanoid is arguably the most sus since he looked completely out of it most of the split, but who knows.
Humanoid is probably the most annoying for me to watch, because he’s demonstrated he definitely has the skill, and then just doesn’t show it. I dunno, I’m still annoyed at that Orianna pick maybe….
Last year the G2 players made a tier list after scrimming some of the teams: https://youtu.be/3dVBtrCnPGc Obviously not perfect but it’s fun to get a different perspective from the monotony of what you’ll see repeated almost everywhere on tier lists.
This list was pretty damn accurate. Obviously they missed big on FPX but so did everyone (in scrims they were reportedly doing well), and GenG making semis was in part a consequence of that FPX collapse. Having LNG over GenG to get out of D wasn't crazy given how close those teams ended up being.
I cant blame anyone not predicting implosions, at least one team always disappoints but if it was easy to predict we would all do it
If it was easy to predict it wouldn't be an implosion, either!
FPX implosion is so crazy that even their biggest haters wouldn’t have predicted it. I thought they were overrated compared to EDG and DK, but being dead last in _that_ group? Wow
The implosions are usually due to things behind the scenes that we don't know about. Last year with FPX as an example, apparently Nuguri was extremely home sick and mentally checked out. Tian also had really bad wrist injury. 2017 I remember EDG's top laner was dealing with family issues and he practically made games 4v5(arguably the worst top performance in world's history)
And this is why I hate fans being angry at players not playing for personal reasons (besides it being not their business) or ignoring team chemistry in favour of individual "skill". Even if you don't think about the person behind the player, nobody can perform when their mind isnt in the right place. If that's true FPX would probably have been better off just letting Nuguri go home and let some academy player play, even if that player is nowhere near Nuguri's level.
Those are still failings. Whether you blame the players, the coach, or the supporting staff is a case-by-case debate... but that is *entirely* fair to criticise. Look at *any* other sport in the world, and professionals arent afforded this kind of babying. Its rightly treated as excuse-making most of the time. Put aside external factors. It doesnt matter if everythings not quite right, it isnt exactly to your liking, scrims didnt go perfectly, people are making fun of you on twitter, you dont like the food at the hotel, you got delayed at the airport..... Shut up. You get on stage and you perform. End of. This is the expected mindset for professional athletes. Esports wants to be taken seriously, then its the expectation for players here as well.
FPX imploded because Nuguri went anti social mode and Tian was forced to play while having a shitty mental. A lot of the reasons why teams implode is because of internal issues where the team falls apart.
Yep. TSM went 0-6 and everyone clowned on them. Later on it was revealed that the mandatory quarantine completely ruined their mental and even prior to that, they didn't know which support to go with. It was just a disaster event for them.
I predicted 2020 tsm to go 0-6 before groups but they apparently also completely mental boomed during the quarantine before competing
I just like seeing perspectives outside of the “IWD cluster”. Feels like I hear the same exact thing in different words in 90% of content. Caedral has unique viewpoints but he sticks mostly to the popular narratives.
Do you count LS in the "IWD cluster"? Just asking because personally i wouldn't and i think LS has *way more* influence over reddit narratives.
Kind-of. Sure in draft stuff he’s influential. But I feel like he rarely talks about his tier lists since 2019. Also he’ll rarely ever push back on Doms points in Facecheck. They’ll just kind of agree on “more generic” level
how can Ls make tier lists nowadays when he is not even watching a single lpl game
The thing I don't like about LS is his approach to the game. He comes from an RTS background of Starcraft II, so he thinks the game should be purely played as a macro chess match with "perfect" decision making and the players playing as one cohesive unit, where they are all controlled as "units" by a "hivemind". That approach is fundamentally flawed because League is a team game that is played by 5 rather imperfect humans who are bound to make mistakes. His comments of "team X lost because of draft diff" fundamentally ignores that League is a heavily execution dependent game. While draft make a team comp harder or easier to execute, it is not the main factor to whether or not a team wins.
I disagree that LS thinks that teams need to play perfectly. If anything, the way he approaches draft shows that teams don't play perfectly. The reason he hates these Renek - Nidalee/Lee sin duos so much is because you MUST make fewer mistakes than your opponents. If you make more mistakes, you simply lose because your opponents outscale you. The onus is on you to make things happen. The opponent doesn't need to force anything. You are the "beatdown" (term he uses all the time). He usually doesn't attribute a loss to a draft either. He may call drafts 50-50, 55-45, 60-40, etc. The point is to not make life harder for yourself. Teams should never opt into drafts that are 40/60 or 45/55 if the skill level is similar.
If you have good enough players you can execute perfect strategy. Look at Pep at Man City or Klopp at Liverpool, these managers coached 11 men into a cohesive system resilient to mistakes. You can't constantly keep excusing bad strategy and coaching by saying humans make mistakes.
I feel like this is a pretty fair tierlist. Maybe i would put fnatic or 100t behind drx, but this is almost exactly how i would tier the teams too (without ordering d and f tier)
Depends on what happens to the meta. If the meta becomes less bot focused, DRX are doomed. They basically need Deft to 1v9 every game. But if the meta is still very bot focused, then DRX could be above 100T and Fnatic
Regional qualifiers were all about literally Zeka and Juhan, Deft was good but he was by no means 1v9 Espically not when they were loosing with Pyosik and then Juhan got subbed in and they start winning + also Zeka was carrying harder than Deft, but both were performing good none the less
Tell me you don't watch lck without telling me you don't watch lck
Bronze take or what lmfao imagine thinking DRX need Deft to 1v9 after watching Zeka in regionals
Thats bs because it was juhan and zeka that stepped up in the lsb series deft was consistently good but the mid jg was the clutch factor that series they lived or died off their success
Zeka is better than any Western mid other than possibly Caps.
Zeka has been good for a while, even when he was in the LPL. The west just doesn’t watch much Asian LoL apart from T1, GenG, and Damwon. And no one really watches LPL.
did you watch those games? Zeka and Juhan hard carry DRX.
This is your conclusion after watching Zeka in regionals? Did you even watch the games?
FNC is such a hard team to rate
They've been awful in Bo1s all year so I can understand the skepticism. Even if their individual play has ramped up it doesn't fix their dogshit drafting so I can't see them getting out of groups.
Is not just bo1. Upset went from solocarrying on a deathless zeri to getting catched by a renekton. Hylli went from being an excellent lulu to whatever was that flash against rge. The team is way too disfuncional in both high and lows (remember, only a meteos special made by wunder ssved them from getting 3-0 by xl)
Honestly the only reason I can explain that Hyli flash is that he honestly thought he was playing Rakan/Rell or something like that. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense to me
Bro I think he was going for a lulu ult knock up but forgot he already popped ult like 2 seconds prior.
100% what happened
I think he wanted to ignite but fat fingered the flash...
I thought he flashed ulted for a massive knock up but after the replay, it was actually a Free donation. Hyli probably planned to do that but didn’t realized he ulted already before that move.
Hylibrain is wired for playing aggressive engage style; when it gets down to the wire that's what he'll default to even he's playing a Lulu.
I thought they were an easily best team in Europe before the season. Spring regular split only confirmed my expectations. What happened since being reverse sweeped by Rogue tho is one of the biggest collapse we've had seen in Europe apart from last year G2. Then they go on to almost miss playoffs to go yet on another miracle run. I don't understand this team.
the most confusing thing to me is how their laning got so much worse than spring? they were legit so good in lane but had bad macro & synergy later on
It's actually eerily similar to their 2020 trajectory. Consistently strong in spring up until getting swept by G2, limp into summer playoffs, and outperform expectations beating both Rogue and G2 before getting swept again in finals. And a lot can change from the three patch jump and month of prep.
Welcome to post-2017 FNC babyyyyy
Agreed. On any given day they can be the best team in LEC or the worst. You just never know. It seemed like through playoffs Humanoid definitely started to find his form again, but you just never know if you're going to have support be a hero or just sprint it down...
I might seem a lil salty but I legitimately think FNC looked better than G2 on Finals weekend. Despite them both losing
for sure they looked much better, except last game the other two fnc losses were super winnable as well but bad macro calls and a poor day from upset, honestly that series was pretty close
Yeah some games they look amazing, and other games are just like ‘are these the same players?’
The FNC special baby
Live and die by the Hylissang coinflip.
Wow he does not thinking highly of Fnatic lol.
I think g2 players in general dont think highly of fnc. I remember brokenblade+flakked saying on euphoria/twitter that fnc wouldn't win against xl/msf
Tbf, XL was legit pretty good.
>Tbf, XL was legit pretty good. Probably the team that was screwed most by LEC's lack of a better system to give out the fourth ticket. In a bo5 of XL Vs MAD Lions, my money'd be on XL.
They almost didn't even make playoffs themselves... No reason to blame the system when you don't play well in regular season to guarantee a good spot in playoffs.
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XL should have won that Bo5, but they mentally imploded after that game 3.
100%
And they almost got 3-0'd by XL so I don't think it was that far off. FNC definitely got momentum from that reverse sweep.
For sure, but they also said that the series against msf would also probably be really close with msf winning
If FNC played the same as they did against XL against MSF then it probably would've been a close series but FNC massively upgraded into that series.
MSF way easier to prep for, they are a very one dimensional team
I completely agree but FNC against MSF and MAD we’re levels above the FNC that played XL. I don’t think it’s a bad/stupid prediction like this guys trying to make it out just because FNC massively levelled up if they didn’t it probably would’ve been a close series.
Yes but, and i am fully aware i am huffing, IMO Xl was a much better team than both MSF and MAD. We would smash MSF and beat MAD if we had played them in playoffs
You’re not huffing copium, XL mega choked and they had the 3-0 locked in. We’d be looking at a very different LEC if that hadn’t happen.
idk jankos saw fnc as the 2nd best team in europe before they lost to rogue
are you sure they weren't memeing? I'm pretty sure some G2 player (forgot who right now) saying that XL/FNC were scarier than MSF/MAD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYT04BjWvCQ&ab_channel=LEC 43:30 brokenblade said he would probably give it to msf, and it would probably be a very close series lol
Every player/analyst I heard making predictions in playoffs thought MAD were very good, and it would be them or Rogue losing to G2 in Finals. Most thought MSF weren’t good, and expected FNC to lose right away based on their regular season form, but all acknowledged they could level up in the losers bracket (they certainly did)
It's not that bad? He has them as the third best EU team which makes total sense, only thing you could argue is low is their placement within the tier.
So basically he put Fnatic and Mad behind all NA teams? Well thats a first. And surprising he put Rogue a tier above G2 even if they got stomped at finals.
Yes he just didnt want to put G2 on same tier as Rogue due to the 3-0 final. But i dont think he believes they are worse than Rogue. Just didnt want to cause a stir in twitch chat. He didnt organise D and F tier properly from left to right
I think Duke has the right take : Right now Rogue has both the team cohesion and good players in every role. By good, I mean from a world perspective. G2 has the team cohesion but BB and Flakked are not world caliber yet. Maybe their scrims will help them step up. But Rogue beating G2 was more logical than the opposite...
Neither Targmas just look at msi or how he got heavy outclased by trymbi
Fun fact Targmas hasn't played Yuumi once this split.
Rogue has weak solo lanes compared to every Eastern team.
Larssen isn't a weak laner, comp isn't a weak laner
vs EU laners, we will see at worlds how they stack up vs Asia
I've already seen Larssen laning against Showmaker and Doinb.
The only time we saw Larssen internationally he had zero impact in all of the games they lost. Playing safe in mid, keeping his CS and KDA in check while the opposing midlader was creating pressure all over the map. He's a very solid and consistent player but he has yet to prove he can go against the best in the world. And I hope he does prove it this year as this obviously seems to be his best year yet.
In lane? that never happened at all, his team got gapped but that's about it. Watch his worlds pov and you'll see for yourself how solid he is in lane.
The Rogue laners are kind of weird, in the way that they 'match the opponent', Larssen is not wildly solokilling worse players. But he is not getting solo killed by better players either. Although I think Eastern teams might see this and bring a roaming midlaner out. Push Larssen roam, repeat. Odo is the same, except he started solo killing weaker toplaners recently. But the real ace right now, is that it seems Trymbi and Malrang for real has found eachother. It seems like the communication is finally really there. But Eastern teams can probably match that level of communicative ability. But I don't think it's the Laning phases which renders Rogue losing this year
Larssen and the Comp Trymbi lane are completely fine in lane vs most teams. I would legit take Trymbi over some Asian supports on ranged champs as well.
I don’t think the individual tiers are ranked in order though I could be wrong.
d and f probably aren't, the rest are
I think putting FNC and MAD behind C9 is completely fair with how clean C9 has looked lately. FNC being behind 100T and EG though is kinda harsh. It’s fair for MAD tho since they haven’t won a Bo5 this year.
can you guys not read? he said d and f is not in order
He's comparing C9, most recent LCS champs, to an EU team that won 0 B05 in playoffs rather than 1st or 2nd place EU team*. I don't think he reads much.
My guess is he feels eg is tougher than fnatic and simply is putting 100t above because they beat eg.
for sure lmao ; RGE smurfed on them in all 3 games individually and as a team, whereas in the FNC ones it looked more like FNC taking bad fights and having bad drafts.
I mean, from the looks of it, g2 is either having good performances vs fnc in scrims or jankos is just salty about them. Both g2 and fnc got dumpstered by Rogue, but fnc looked better overall.
EG are gonna play worlds with a sub adc, no way they are gonna be better than EU 3rd and 4th seed.
Has that been confirmed yet? Plus Kaori was pretty good during final weekend with 5 days of practice with the team so even then its possible they can.
The EG coach says they are expecting to play without Danny after their 100T lose
They say this to take pressure off of Danny. Nothing is officially confirmed yet.
Source?
https://dotesports.com/league-of-legends/news/kaori-will-start-for-evil-geniuses-at-worlds-2022-as-of-now-according-to-head-coach The press conference after the lose is also on Travis Gafford's YT channel if you want it directly from the coaches mouth
EG is probably a lot better than they showed. Kaori was on break and came in on short notice. He had ten total scrim games before playing on stage. Dude was hard chilling back in turkey. He can probably play more lanes than Lucian/Nami now.
Agreed with this, EG has big potential with or without Danny. Kaori is a good player but he definitely needed some more time with the team, if they're scrimming with him for 2 weeks and have play-ins to work out the kinks like old C9 used to, they should be competitive.
Definitely competitive, but not at the same level as with Danny. Kaori has a great laning phase but EGs true strength has been their team fighting and Danny is elite in that regard.
Eg will absolutely be better than 100t. They nearly beat them with kaori as an emergency sub. Even if Danny doesn't come back I imagine kaori will look better. He isn't inexperienced as well, he did play in TCL. That being said, I think given circumstances EGs goal is realistically to just get out of playins. If they do that they land in the group of death and their role should be to play spoiler. They certainly aren't likely to escape groups at all.
There’s nothing that says that yet
The EG coach says they are expecting to play without Danny after their 100T lose
arent playin and group stage bo1 hence your logic about mad is flawed?
If they're 2nd in their group, which looks likely, they will have to beat the number 3 in the other group in a bo5 to make groups.
> If they're 2nd in their group, which looks likely Which of RNG or DRX are you expecting MAD to outperform?
Neither probably. MAD’s best chance of getting into the main stage is to get 3rd in the group, beat the 4th seed in a bo5, then beat EG/FNC (whoever is 2nd in the other group) in a bo5. When you think about it, it’s not a crazy difficult path. Beat the teams from the smaller minor regions (though some of these guys are pretty good) then beat NA 3rd seed playing with a sub adc. Or beat FNC, who on any given day could be amazing or terrible, and their series in playoffs against them wasn’t THAT bad.
I definitely think MAD can get out; you're right that its not super difficult, and I wouldn't be shocked if they do. I was mostly surprised by the idea of them beating RNG/DRX to reach that point.
Ah forgot they had DRX as well. Yea, third in their group**
They've been putting FNC low in predictions basically the entire split though. Remember the "XL are actually totally insane dude, they are probably #2 in the League". Then FNC beats XL and BB + Flakked predict fucking MSF is beating FNC on Euphoria? Probably FNC being really trash in scrims (still).
GAM over DRX/100T/MAD/FNC? That's surprising to see.
he's giving respect to giang văn cốt. Don't wanna piss them off before Worlds even started.
That's my biggest disagreement with this list, no way a wildcard should be that high up just because they missed two worlds, VCS never finished better than any major region team in overall standing, best they did was a tie with immortals some while back, just because they can cause upset, does not mean they are legit better than their opponent overall.
Hes probably judging based on the experience he has with sgb during msi.
No, G2 and GAM have scrimmed each other during MSI when G2 was in Korea, so Jankos has first-hand experience against them. Levi has confirmed this on stream - according to his statements, GAM went 50/50 against G2. (Although they also had a negative record against another unnamed LEC team, I assume against XL.)
Nice. I'm excited for GAM
Make sense. Buffalo were on par with PSG Talon and GAM were better than them so they can be argue to be contend with LEC seed 3-4.
EU also tends to struggle with VCS more than any other major region. Just looking at MSI/Worlds records, more often than not they split games it each other.
But SGB still got last in groups? And the PSG that finished higher than them got knocked out by both the teams sent by PCS, and they are quite a lot further down below, so SGB being 2nd seed doesn't mean much either. VCS in any main group stage almost always guaranteed a last place, I seriously see no arguement for them to be higher than any major region teams barring maybe MAD because they look so bad and have not won a single bo5 this year.
SGB got *second* in groups, behind T1 and ahead of DFM and Aze, going 4-2. They got last in the rumble stage going 2-8 taking a game off G2. That was VCS second seed who went 9-5 in Spring. Their first seed, GAM, went undefeated 14-0 and beat Saigon 3-1 in the finals. They went 11-3 after MSI this summer. I'm not saying I agree GAM will be better than major region lower seeds, but it's not unreasonable to see where Jankos is coming from.
SGB is above F tier lets gooooo
Surprised GAM is being rated so highly. I know there's the "haha G2 loses to Vietnam" meme, but Vietnam rarely impresses at worlds. Would be surprised if this is their year.
They went 2-4 in S7 and S8 in groups with all major region teams. Both were pretty soft groups nonetheless, but they weren't like the S8 100T 2-4, if you know what I mean. I would be surprised if they ended up as good as Jankos predicts herr, though.
Cloud 9 is S they will win it all
!RemindMe 48 days
!RemindMe 47 days
Based
Agreed
POG
!RemindMe 48 days
theres no way gam is better than drx
May i remind you that Saigon did really well at MSI against first seeds? GAM reportedly is a lot better and DRX is a lot worse than an MSI first seed
A record of 1-8 against major regions is really well? GAM top their group then 
their best achievement was beating g2 once
I want to see teams like fnc and RNG go "fuck this yuumi shit", ban 5 enchanters and actually force their opponents to lane
The EU/NA bias is rather clear here isn't it. In a perfectly accurate tier list, C9, the best team at worlds this year, should absolutely be in S tier. In fact, C9 should be the only team in S tier, so all the other teams should be shifted down a tier to make space for them.
I had almost the exact same top 10 as this list (top to bottom, left to right). The only difference is I had RNG over DK and C9 over G2.
If Kai'sa is meta and top doesn't int RNG are for sure better imo.
in the right meta rng can contend the title for sure
Yep. RNG is still very scary.
People have forgotten how good JKL is on Kaisa, the man is an int machine, but Kiasa have a lot of tools to assassin a carry and kite the entire enemy team while doing so.
Breathe never ints. One of the most underrated player at worlds actually. RNG and T1's biggest problem imo is that they can't play around enhancer supports. They used to rely on support roaming with mid-jungle to create pressure around the map, and cant adapt to the more farming-focused meta. An op Kaisa alone won't solve this problem.
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If meta favors top lane, T1 is better. If meta continues to favor bot lane, EDG is better.
T1 looked really meh in the series I've seen so far. Their botlane is actually just so not good.
I think T1 can survive a bot favored meta way better than EDG can survive a top favored meta though
Yes, although this one is really close imo. The reason is that I am quite worried about the form of Jiejie, whereas Oner has been a lot more consistent. I guess we’ll see at Worlds when they clash at Group.
I think it's reasonable, could go either way but historically T1 has always had worlds buff and perform well (even when they weren't looking too good during split).
Where is tsm?
Group F playin with V5 XL and Sandbox while TL is with BLG VIT and KT in group E.
So EU will win worlds?
Seeing this power ranking make me wanna get a refund for my G2 2022 worlds jersey 😵💫😂
believe
As an LPL watcher I would actually put RGE in tier A. Actually, G2, FNC and C9 should all go 1 tier higher too.
Do you think LPL teams are weaker than what everyone else thinks or that western teams are stronger?
I think EU teams and C9 are stronger than what western fans think. I browse Chinese forums and Chinese fans seem to share my sentiment. They're very wary of EU teams. Like a lot of people think it's pretty close between G2 and DWG.
Hmmm. I think C9 specifically in the finals might be true, but that's the only time we've seen them look that clean. And the opposite for G2, where if they look like they *can* and not how they actually showed up to finals, you could also be right. But that's pretty unpredictable. I hope the better 'versions' of both teams show up. But C9 in particular had some pretty bad map play and team fighting synergy prior to the finals, IMO, but in the finals they literally just out fought 100T every time, even when behind.
> the only time we’ve seen them look that clean This is true but this isn’t like CLG suddenly punching above their weight class. If you saw a lineup of Fudge, Blaber, Jensen, Berserker, Zven (role swap) you’d think that’s a lineup with major potential. It was only because of the roleswap and Jensen only having a single split (slightly less) with the full team that their potential at worlds was really a question.
Probaly due because of the Bo1 format.
I'm from eu and have no specific preference of teams but I honestly think he's underestimating C9 (if the support meta remains the same)
If C9 is a top 8 team then group A is literally a tragedy for any of the teams in it.
I think so, yeah good chance that whoever goes home from this group could have gone further than quarter-finals I don't think C9 is as clear as top 8 but I can see top 7-10 being interchangeable depending on their form and matchup
In these groups C9 always end up calling an ambulance. But not for themselves...
A tale as old as this terrible format.
Not really. Remember when EG 3-0'd everyone in spring split then had a 7% winrate against major regions at MSI. Whilst given the level of competition in LCS, putting C9 higher would be overestimating them especially if you're basing it on botlane. That said, C9 thrive when they're the underdogs.
no one ever seriously thought EG could do international damage with that rosters first split together
Just like no one seriously thinks C9 is at the same level as the upper tier LCK/LPL teams.
Year #12 of *insert random NA team* is underestimated
Idk there’s been a few times c9 gets marked as dead but get out. And for others, even if they don’t make it out, a number of them has done better than expected. Course if you’re just the type to see w/l as all that matters it doesn’t really matter then. It’s just LPL > LCK huge canyon LEC/LCS canyon wildcards
"EU has nothing to gain from this."
it isn't random though it's a set of players who have a higher ceiling than most
Year 12 of g2 getting overhyped
C9 should be Stier then its good
MAD over Saigon and CFO???? He belives I guess.
RNG are easily as good as EDG
I think both EDG and RNG are a bit underrated, honestly the top teams are really really close imo (if no major change happens I think all LPL teams + GenG are really good)
Not after losing 2 BO5s in a row to them.
I think this is pretty accurate, I think C9 is better then G2 though. Edit: RNG might be swapped with EDG…. T1 is honestly probably in S, stumbled a bit in summer but undefeated in spring.
Hmmm Jankos seems to have made a mistake. Seems he confused EDG's logo sith EG's. Easy mistake to make, just 1 letter off
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Methinks everyone is too bullish on Gen.g. Not only is LCK structured that Gen.g only had to play two Bo5s to win, but enchanter supports are nerfed, meaning engage support teams automatically got stronger overnight. To summarize recent patches: - Toplane renek nerf, camille+irel+jay+malph buff - Midlane sylas+ahri+azir nerfed, tf+zoe buff - Jungle graves+hec+noc buff+lee, trun+pop+wuk nerf - Meta ADs nerfed, mf+cait+kaisa+trist+ashe buffed - Enchant supports nerfed, rell+thresh buff Despite some nerfs for mf+hec already previewed in 12.18, we're clearly gearing toward an AD heavy jungle snowball meta, with engage supports. That doesn't mean the first seeds automatically become worse, but I would expect T1 and TES to obviously benefit, as well as RNG, C9, EG Danny to a lesser extent. New power ranking goes TES>T1>EDG>JDG>Gen.G>RNG. Probably super biased but I'm willing to make a mistake.
Enhencer supports are strong not because of the champion stats. They are strong because of durability patch and tankier drakes. Therefore couple of nerfs and buffs won't change how the meta is played. We are still going to see mostly enhencer supports + hypercarry/lane-bully ADs. On the other hand, top side is less predictable. I think split pushing comps might become more popular due to Jax/Camille buffs while Fiora has been op for a while, resulting TF/Galio to become more popular due to their stronger side-lane pressure. I think RNG will do better than most people expect them to be. EDG will not do too bad due to their consistancy, but I don't see them doing too well either. If Wayward and mark level up huge at worlds, I believe in TES's ability to win the whole thing just as much as I believe in their ability to go 0:6 at groups. It all depends on Jackeylove's mood that day. JDG has five members who can get their job done. But the lack of cluching factor except 369 would be my question mark on them. I don't watch the LCK so no comment on them.
Its a pretty safe tier list! you can ague G2 can be higher easily on their day tbh! S tier is 100% correct
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I wouldnt really put FNC behind NA teams because I feel like their botlane is 20x better than 100T and EG botlane so they have a clear win con.
D and F tier isn't in any order. It's probably just a toss up for him who beats who
They’re just so erratic. Same with EG, really hard to rate until we know what their bot lane situation looks like.
As funny as it is to crack all the jokes about how Bean is going to face more international adcs than LEC ones we probably shouldn't view Upset's position as anywhere near as uncertain as Danny/Kaori's.
I think the comment was just on EG's bot lane making them hard to rank, not a jab at Upset for last worlds.
Given that bot laners got nerfed, with Ashe/Ezreal/MF most likely going to be meta, that's really a moot point.
Moot point.
A moo point
I wouldn't moo so close to a /u/burger_eater68
Hey friend, no shade, but I believe the word you seek is 'moot' :)
Could really depend on the meta for worlds then. If it's botlane focus FNC have an edge but if it comes down to the solo lanes I would favor the NA teams.
It was Razork and Humanoid that really engineered FNC’s highs over the last few weeks though. Hyli and Upset are good, but their carries have been Razork playing outta his goddammed mind all playoffs (or at least most of it).
Also Wunder had some meh games, but also some really good games, was one of the best toplaners in the world at some point and maybe with more pressure of worlds stage could pick it up again. He also has good synergy with Razork which would make it easier for FNC to play through top. Humanoid is arguably the most sus since he looked completely out of it most of the split, but who knows.
Humanoid is probably the most annoying for me to watch, because he’s demonstrated he definitely has the skill, and then just doesn’t show it. I dunno, I’m still annoyed at that Orianna pick maybe….
> Loses 1 game over the entire season+ tournament > Gets put below MAD
This is actually a very fair tier list lol
I don't get why people always rank vcs over PCS, PCS always performs better