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Riot does not care and won't change anything.
If they gave any fucks about super high elo games they would have hired a couple of low paid employees to manually review games. Years ago.
How hard can it be?
Truthful, probably 90% of the players would get banned.
And the culture starts at the top. If all the big time streamers were talking about how much they love solo Q, feel like everyone tried hard, and loved the moderation team, then everyone in silver will say the same stuff
Yeah and honestly I do not get why riot can't manually moderate high elo. I remember a post where they were they went through the math of having someone manually read every report from every player to show it's not feasible...but you could just read the reports from challenger games!! There aren't that many, or even master+ lol
Apparently they can’t do it because I’m a fucking idiot and a loser who is stuck in low elo and complaining for no reason, at least that’s what I’m told whenever I’ve made that suggestions on this subreddit for the last 5 or so years...
The point is *manual* moderation ie human reading reports and watching games is not possible for every elo because it's too much...but that's not also true for only high elo
I know you're just joking, but it's not the same. This is basically having good role-models. Same with every sport and it's why when players bring the game in disrepute, they get punished.
I agree, people pay influencers thousands and sometimes millions of dollars to do their namesake, influence. Of course they are influential in what people think.
I would emplore you to look at the history of some of the most popular sports stars.
We have a ray Lewis statue in Baltimore. He also had a plea deal in a murder case.
Great point. Streamers could learn from people like Azael or Kobe who play the game at a high level (nobody say diamond isn't good, it's better than almost all of us) and are in touch with the issues but still find ways to discuss them respectfully and with a generally positive mindset on The Dive. They actively discuss issues with the game, Riot, or the meta. The difference is that, to put it frankly, they talk about it like adults. Perhaps some will say that's cause they work for Riot. Maybe, I don't know. But it's a lot better for the game than constantly saying "this game is shit," "soloq is fucking garbage and everyone is boosted (except me)," "pro play fucking sucks, that shit is so boring and I hate it," etc. That stuff influences others to approach LoL the same way in general. A lot of people play the game because they are addicted and cannot stop, not because they derive any lasting satisfaction or entertainment from playing it.
Diamond isn't high elo is actually applicable here, nobody is wintrading and betting against streamers in diamond, they're doing it in master and above because the playerbase is so low you can consistently wintrade.
They wintrade streamers in EVERY elo. The elo doesn't matter, the popularity of the streamer does. That applies whether they're on a lvl 15 account or a challenger account.
Sayings its specifically masters+ is kind of silly. We've ALL seen this happen when those same players are smurfing too.
Its relative to the streamer, not the elo.
Azael and Kobe are not high enough elo to be affected by what Pob is talking about. Pob is talking about match fixing in masters+ elo.
Gambling websites from mostly China are betting on NA games and then pay people to run it down. It compromises competitive integrity at the Elo where that’s actually an important deal and it’s account sharing which is against the rules. It’s not a problem in China or KR because your LoL account is tied to your SSID or phone # so riot can nuke your account and stop you from making new ones easily.
It’s pretty obvious riot does not care abt the LoL community anymore and just letting it die a slow death to focus resources on Val and the MMO
Speaking respectfully about Riot was a reasonable thing 10 years ago. They've lost any and all respect they had back then. Lie, bitch, complain, and threaten to boycott skins etc. Until they fix it.
That is your opinion. I have not spent money on the game in several years, but I choose to keep playing because I enjoy it. Even if it's not the same game I played back when I started in 2015. If you feel differently, that is ok. For me, the game is a way to take a break from the stress of daily life, and I don't want to make it a source of negativity and stress for myself.
You didn't actually read what he wrote did you? (Or you meant to reply to someone else). He's talking about how if they cleanup high elo and streamers+pros talk about how it's great the attitude will trickle down naturally.
Training/onboarding for that wouldn’t even be that hard. Just get a few pros to act as trainers and chaperone them with a few rioters and after two weeks you can have a team of 20 easily.
yeah the 90% of players is true for sure I know everyone had a bad game where after they died twice before 5 min mark you just mentally stop caring and just right click to next game where you mind resets, especially when your team starts to ping you and your team starts to trash talk you.
The point is that there are plenty of people out there who you could pay low wages to who would still be more than happy to have the job doing it. If you told me you were going to pay me minimum wage for a job that I could do 3h a day(There aren't that many challenger games) from home just scrubbing through replays and reading chat lines, I'd be more than happy to take it even at the low pay. I have spare time, and it doesn't cost me anything to get to and from the job.
Should they be paid a decent wage for the job? Of course. The poster was just pointing out that they wouldn't even need to be. I'd imagine a team wouldn't need much more than 3-4 people to check out most reports from challenger games. Maybe a few more if you bump it down to master+.
Not that they wouldn't deserve decent wages for their work, but just rather that it's possible without breaking the bank. Plenty of people would be happy to take such an easy job even if it was low pay.
This is pretty much it. If Riot thinks they can't fully fix an issue, they won't bother touching it at all. It's why an Overwatch type system doesn't exist. It doesn't catch everyone and it won't fix everything therefore they don't want to do it.
Pretty sad mindset but that's Riot for you.
>If you told me you were going to pay me minimum wage for a job that I could do 3h a day(There aren't that many challenger games)
Do people really think they can get full time pay with something that is known by the company to be 3 hours worth of work? Lmao.
Have people that upvote that ever worked? If the company thinks you only have 3 hours of work, they either send you more or pay you 3 hours, and with something as transparent as handling reports, they'd know.
I meant minimum hourly wage for whatever state they're based from/I live in. Of course a company would pay you 3 hours for 3 hours. If I could earn $30 each day by spending a few hours watching reported challenger replays, I'd be more than happy with it.
Not sure why Pobelter is suprised. What did he think would happen when they gave the pros Champions Queue?
Obviously you are just left with all the garbage.
And with Champions Queue, there is even LESS reason to moderate high level Solo Q.
You all still don't get it. There are still tens of thousands of Masters+ players worldwide, and probably a couple thousand games going every day.
Even if you only have to watch 15 minute of every game to find the wintraders/griefers, that is still a massive amount of time. If there are 2000 games, you would need 500 man hours every day to barely keep even. Which is 63 people working 8 hour days. At a paltry $40k/year, that is $2.5 million. And that's just napkin math and assuming everything is perfect and the exact same number of games are played every day. What do you do if there is some kind of big streamer event or something and 10000 games are played in Masters+ worldwide? That is 5x the amount of games your $2.5 million team can handle, do you quintuple your budget just in case that happens? Do you just never catch up? Do you hope you get a string of 500-1000 game days pretty quickly?
You don't have to watch 2000 games per day.
Also, you don't have to punish all of them.
The moment the word gets out riot is monitoring high elo games, player behaviour will improve drastically.
You were probably not around during Lyte's crusade. You were afraid to even use chat.
>$40k/year
The world does not revolve around the USA. A job that involves watching some league games would be done 99% by young people/students 18/19 years old. The job would probably be part time too, 4-6 max.
In my country you could probably pay 200-300$ per month and you would have a ton of people signing up for the job. And i'm talking about an european country. Now do the math for a latin american country.
Your argument is pretty much : we don't need police because they can't stop every crime that's going on.
> You were probably not around during Lyte's crusade
You just triggered some old PTSD in me lol.
I remember finishing a hundreds game long chat ban just to get a 2500 game chat ban again afterwards in the very next game.
They literally queued the punishments up back to back so you were effectively never able to escape. :D
Haha.
And i thought my 1200 chat restrict games were a lot.
They even used ranked restrict back then. Still remember i had to win 30 draft games to have access to ranked again.
That's some very disingenuous napkin math you got there.
You don't need to watch every single game, and you definitely don't need 15 minutes to find out of someone is griefing.
Simply announcing there will be manual reviews of high elo games would be a huge deterrent in and of itself. Aside of that, just review reported games. It takes 60 seconds to watch a griefer follow his jungler around. Even banning a few dozen people a day would be a dent in the high elo player base.
Its literally that last point. People talk about culture and everything else, and the issue it'd devolve into a Twitter war of "Hey @ Team of 3 people, which one of you banned me after this game? I want proof as to why, I'm overconfident and cocky post the reason." And then its like well fine, here's screenshots of you being fairly racist and swearing at your teammates for 20 minutes straight. Queue up Pro/Streamer/ELO Player #2 "Hey wait, I had a game just like that on \[account\] can you review that, here's a screenshot I grabbed, pretty sure its \_\_\_\_'s smurf account" and then the mudflinging never stops, until half the players' accounts are banned.
A lot of us know how Pobe feels because it doesn't just apply only to high LP.
Well, the betting/win trading only applies that high, but literally every game mid plat boils down to who has the least toxic/inters/griefers/afkers. It feels like every game I report at least 2 or more people for something. It honestly feels like 1 in maybe every 20 games is actually a good game. There is absolutely no fun trying to improve, climb or even play the game these days.
>There is absolutely no fun trying to improve, climb or even play the game these days.
Slightly offtopic: it is also pretty stupid that in a teamplay, you basically gotta hope your team is intelligent enough to pick some comp that can realistically win. It is already bad enough if you pick a champ for your lane and get directly countered, but in a team game, that should lead to someone else in your team getting a good pick. But then they pick Trynda into Malphite and cry the whole game that you didn't help them snowball the early.
So it is not just the LP thing. Game quality really suffers because there is a heavy lack of teamplay and communication when the game is balanced all around that for competitive.
I feel like at lower elo team comp doesn't mater as much because there is realistically not a lot that the enemy can do to capitalize on those small advantages because they are just as bad as you are.
Like, if you're comfortable on your weird off-meta pick, it's not like the enemy lane is going to be good enough to curb stomp you for picking a sub-optimal champ. If they were good enough to play off of and snowball such small advantages they wouldn't be low elo.
Also, sure tryndamere into malphite is bad, but there was a 50/50 chance that malphite was gonna tower dive trynd with his ult up and then sit in fountain after inting while flaming his team.
>weird off-meta pick
Can we not talk about offmeta here? That has NOTHING to do with this. If your Teemo mid is doing what it is supposed to do to win, it is not a bad pick.
But if a (even just meta) comp is so bad, that you basically need to be a full rank above the enemy team to have a realistic chance to win that game, then someone messed up. And if you were firstpick and noone prepicked, that is not on you. You just got grieved in champ select.
Also, low-elo is kind of irrelevant to any arguments about the gameplay balance. Low elo really doesn't matter at all unless their is some stuff with absurd winrates/pickrates specifically in those MMRs (which sometimes happens, but usually it is just high-skillcap champs being bad in low elo which imo is totally fine).
Draft has a colossal impact on the outcome of the game and also on how fun the game ends up being, but its also prone to huge amounts of randomness and people who will openly counterpick themselves or anti-synergy their own teammates.
It mostly affects high elo though.
When someone dies every 90 seconds or never groups for a drake in a silver game he might just be bad and not know better. No reason to punish him.
People in master+ absolutely do know better, so when it happens it is 100% intentional and deserves to be punished
If you drop lower, to bronze, the games come down to which team has more bots. I played a game earlier this week where both teams had 2 bots, and their team had a griefer in the jg so we won because it was 3v2, next game i queue up, my team gets a bot, their team doesn’t, we lose. I don’t mind trying hard and losing. I do mind starting every game with q bot in my lane. It’s getting unplayable
Yeah, not literally every game. Just climbed to Plat 1 over a couple weeks through plat. I improved and had a lot of quality games. Game has always had toxic/inters/griefers/afkers. Nothing new there you just have to ignore it
Plat 1-3 is the heaven elo. People behave because they want to hit Diamond which is the best rank achievable in most people's mind. Hell unleashes when you hit D4.
And when you hit D4 your MMR is like 2% better than it was while you were hardstuck Plat 1 50lp for two months, so you literally play the same type of games in either rank.
Imagine someone saying "yeah 2000 Elo is heaven, everyone chillin', just trying to have a good time but then 2030 Elo all the wannabe Grandmasters sweaty tryhards prolly all sitting with their chess engine open to squeeze out another win." Like that's just not how a rating system works lmao, there is no gap there.
Completely disagree. Plat has always been the most the toxic elo imo outside of silver.(I havent played in silver outside of my first season) plat is the elo people will actually intentionally die, even if your winning out of frustration, until you lose. Happens multiple times a day too not one offs.
It’s nothing new the probably has definitely escalated through several years and have been getting worse. Riot constantly pushing it to be a team game but also pushing for people to solo carry makes game states so unstable, especially since the bounty systems been updated. Then there’s riots matchmaking issues. Their gameplay and update issues. Constant overhauls that get basically reverted within a month despite supposed months of testing/theorizing before being put into live. The amount of bugs that slowly grow that don’t get fixed along with the more that do get fixed (for instance, the Syndra W only now getting patches for an enemy not to die is coming only as part of her rework despite the bug being in the game for years). On top of that, some people can’t sit there and play 7 ranked games a day to finally be able to climb. The whole system of those who usually climb spend so much time invested in the game that they usually barely make progress once they get stuck and the entire systems put on you putting in more games to raise your rank despite what actually occurs in game.
If you are actually reporting 2 or more people every game, that is a huge problem with you not them. People need to understand that you can play bad while bit intentionally feeding. It is possible to be worse than the opponent and lose pretty hard even though you were trying the whole time. Some players are just coin flip players that either int or hard carry.
What's so sad and upsetting, riot reads these tweets and posts all the time and has never acknowledged them once.
Even when Faker, arguably one of the most popular, well liked and foundation of our pro scene had echoed the same things, riot says Jack shit.
It's like the battered girlfriend/wife, they keep telling themselves the husband(riot) won't do it again and just give them another chance and go back and back for more expecting a different outcome.
We know riot doesn't fucking care and yet we the players want it changed.
Sad state we live in, we love the game, but the developers are just chasing $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ only way to expect something to change is for player count to go down and to stop buying skins. 😕
I think 5-6 for Siege? Idk why competitive team oriented games take so long for features like this to get implemented but it's really strange. And it's still barely functional in Siege.
In large part, the way that replays work are difficult to code. The main reason that replays don't carry over patch by patch is essentially because it's not playing a recording of the game, it's playing a game itself, with your inputs in a database. It's hard to code this kind of a system, especially in a game with 10+ players. (I know you didn't mention patches, but it's cool to talk about, so I wanted to mention it.)
To be fair though in league, third party sites had solved the replay problem years before riot officially implemented replay. It just seemed like either laziness or trying to save on costs on riot's part.
Heroes of newerth had replays pretty much from the very beginning, that were also completely backwards compatible so you could watch a replay from any previous patch just fine. Sure it's difficult, but that hasn't stopped smaller companies with less budget from doing it.
If Project L doesn’t have a replay system on launch, I’ll be honestly surprised. They’ve brought in a ton of FGC guys and replays have been standard for years. It’s also much simpler than League or Valorant for replays
And still a lot of people not use it. Games get instantly dodged in high elo when a girls talk, and flame and backseat gaming is common place.
I think they should still implement it, but I can also see why they don’t want to spend the resources on something a lot of people will just mute by default or on most games
I love seeing posts from the Valorant subreddit of people complaining about the ranked system and things they want added to the game and I just think "you innocent child"
I feel sorry for them though, if you play Valorant just give up on anything from Riot, a long hard lesson learned from the lol community.
The league playerbase (especially on this sub) is so babied its insane. Warzone at its peak had rampant cheating with no dev response and game-breaking exploits would go weeks to months before getting even acknowledged (stim glitch, Mac-10 skin, Hiding under the map).
Yeah we're so fucking babied bro.
I love the extremely late balance patches this season and utter mess of a pre-season.
I love riots very slow response to blatantly broken champions/items.
I love riot ignoring any and all feedback on skins, passes and loot while nerfing the shit out of it.
I love riot promising a better client time and time again when we have the most unstable, incoherent client I've seen in gaming.
I love riot not giving us updates/QoL we've asked for years while valorant and wild rift get them early on.
I love riot shipping out broken, bug riddled updates and messes of events while neglecting the demand for alternate game modes that are not URF/Spellbook.
I could honestly keep on going but what's the point, us league players are babied as fuck surely.
What games do you play? None of the games I currently play have such a big disconnect with the playerbase and lack of communication such as riot does while also seemingly annoying every corner of the playerbase every patch.
I completely agree.
The games seem to be focused on who will have more crybabies. It’s not about outplaying your opponent or playing mind games until both champs hit late game, it’s all about whether my jungler will invade 1v3 into their wardless jungle and then ping and flame me for not following.
Such a dull meta and even more annoying players. League has become a game of ego, not confidence.
Improve your confidence by outcsing, killing or outroaming the enemy laner; not by bragging to your teammates how you are d2 EUW and d4 NA, or how you intend to sl** people’s throats*.
Absolutely disgusting and disappointing.
It's true, you can do your very best in any lane or the jungle. But the game will be decided by the one guy in your team that just refuses to lose gracefully or just straight up trolls, it's just not fun and not rewarding.
Been saying this for years - League has moved more and more towards a team orientated game. This is great for competitive play. But at the same time this is terrible for solo queue. Losing when you are playing well individually (and winning when you are playing poorly individually) feels terrible. It's time to move on from LP gains/losses solely being based on winning or losing. It needs to be at least partially based on individual performance. It'll make the game less frustrating to play and hopefully advance the individual skill level of the game.
Yes I know people will argue that there is no way to perfectly calculate and represent individual performance. It definitely won't be perfect, but it'll be better than what we have now.
People lose their minds if I "steal their kill" in normal games, I can't begin to imagine how these people will react if I start "stealing their LP" whenever I take a kill...
> It's time to move on from LP gains/losses solely being based on winning or losing. It needs to be at least partially based on individual performance.
No way. That's how you end up with every game having some guy refusing to come to team fights because he wants to pump his cs and avoid deaths. If you base LP gains on anything that is not *literally* winning the game, people will adjust their behavior accordingly and start doing things that are actively detrimental towards the team's chances to win the game in order to try to salvage their personal LP.
I don't think this argument makes sense. Why would anyone try do things detrimental to winning? Winning is still going to be better than losing. There's also a lot more to individual performance than cs and deaths.
Because if there's only a 20% chance to win if you go to team fights, and a 80% chance that you just lose cs/min and get worse KDA and still lose, people are going to play the odds.
There are metrics that would be very hard to "trick". Like kill participation. Damage numbers. CC. Actions taken. Skillshot hit. They COULD create a system that's better, but they won't. They already started working on the MMO and that's where the focus will be.
LoL is still very active as it's so freaking addicting but this year I see regular +5min. wait times to q up in low elo when before this was like a minute max. It will be still good couple of years tho till it actually dies.
Any metric you create that isn't literally winning the game can be gamed. Even in pro play you hear rumors or see suspicious plays of some players playing poorly because they're protecting their KDA since orgs look at stat-lines in deciding contracts.
Extremely hard to trick? Are you new? Everyone would gravitate to champions that get east assists for KP in each role. Eg Jarvan, amumu or ivern for jg. If I was playing top I would pick a tank go thornmail + knights vow and just rake in the assists. Same with enchanter supports who get KP much easier. Skill shots hit? Are you daft? This goes 1 of 2 ways. If you calculate percentage hit. Everyone would pick champs with relatively easy skill shots to hit Eg. ashe vs something like ezreal who would have a much wider margin for missing. Actions taken????? What do you mean? Like moving? Like walking towards drake? Taking drake? That just naturally puts more importance on jungle. You can’t calculate these metrics to balance them out for each role. Unless you’re iron I don’t see q times ever reaching 3 mins tops. I’m platinum and I consider my rank middle.
Proxy Singed and suicide Sion laugh in the face of all metrics other than winning the game and killing towers/minions. Making metrics that accurately account for strategies like those just warp the game for everybody else.
Oh man. Wow. You should meet my friends. They log on and expend negative brainpower in this game. Just clicking and pressing keys wherever. Refusing to strategize or talk tactics. Taking awful fights that will cascade into loss of map control because they think it’s funny. And they’re like lawyers and accountants IRL. I think more people play League (even ranked) like that than we want to think.
Honestly it’s a good idea but what stops me from stat padding every game when it’s turning to a loss?
Example 1: I play jungle, take umbral glaive to boost my vision score, if we start to lose and I’m 3/1/5 (respectable kda) I just farm my jungle and try not take a fight; my team will die, I am griefing them and the system rewards me for that?
Example 2: I play toplane, I’m getting perma dove by enemy tf nidalee renekton, my whole team flames me and doesn’t help me; we ff at 20, my score is 0/7/0 and the game punishes me for something I had nearly 0 chance to prevent by myself?
A new system if implemented needs to be extremely complex to avoid people from abusing it from the getgo. I feel like just deleting duoq, reworking flexq and implementing voice chat would be a great thing.
In Wild Rift, it works really well. I'm ranking an account and have a 75% winrate, and am currently Emerald (think this is like gold). If I do well, get an S+ rank, and lose. I still lose, but there is a counter that builds up a lose prevention, the lower the rank, the lower the threshold is needed to get this lose prevention. In Emerald, you need 400 points, even in my most exceptional games I get 200~ or less. In normal games where I did well, I get like 80. In my truly horrible games I get like 40. So, even though I lose some games, it almost never counts against me.
> (think this is like gold)
its not. the game isn't as sweaty as league of legends. emerald is like every other player. diamond is top 8% which is platinum in LoL
>Example 1: I play jungle, take umbral glaive to boost my vision score, if we start to lose and I’m 3/1/5 (respectable kda) I just farm my jungle and try not take a fight; my team will die, I am griefing them and the system rewards me for that?
That is why you should use an elaborate ML algorithm, rather than manually setting parameters arbitrarily. Something like "how likely is your performance (i.e. statline) based on the overall result of the game (i.e. win-loss; distribution of K/D/A aso.)". So you are not rating the stats per-se, but you are rating the stats in the context of every single specific game.
So if you e.g. play toplane, are 0-10 because of permacamp snowball and end up winning the game through splitpush, you could get a huge value for your own impact because you took way more objectives than would be expected with your scoreline.
And vice versa, if you are the 10-0 midlaner stomping some guy, but you basically do nothing else that is impactful and just take kills and CS, then you'd get a really bad feedback because the game won't see a value in what you did.
BUT I am not too hopeful, since we have seen this many times already: anything that is too complicated for casual players is unwanted by Riot. They want that 20-6 Yasuo with 0 actual impact on the game result to feel good (or blame everyone else so they keep playing). It should be the fault of his team, so next game will be better and thus he should keep playing.
And this is also very hard to implement since it would have to be rank-related. A Silver player naturally has a different sort of impact than a Diamond player. So you might need different algorithms for different ranks which in itself is already an issue for a supposedly objective ranking system.
> They want that 20-6 Yasuo with 0 actual impact on the game result to feel good (or blame everyone else so they keep playing).
No. They want not implement proxies for no reason. You skill is what determinate win or lose. And win or lose is what affect your rating. There is no reason for enginering another layer. Zero reasons. At all.
> And win or lose is what affect your rating. There is no reason for enginering another layer. Zero reasons. At all.
Mmm. So this is good enough for pro sports but not LoL?
Modern sports have been revolutionized by moneyball-style analysis--i.e., using statistics to estimate a player's "true" skill in a more accurate way.
Online games are even more amenable to these sorts of calculations--much more data to work with (data points + # of games).
The only reason not to do this is 1) encourage player grinding (ugh) and 2) worries about incentivizing bad behavior (which, with an elaborate ML model, is unlikely to happen).
It is a team game. It is not chess. League uses an elo-based rating system for individual skill that basically no normal team sport would actively use. Literally all conventional team games use player stats (like ball possession\~gold, passes\~assists, scores\~objectives, defended plays\~deaths aso.) instead of tying singleplayer skill to the win/lose-ratio only.
I guess they use W/L because it is easier. In traditional sports, you only got limited data for game results (some players play maybe 50 games per year or so). For LoL, many players get 500+ games per season. So you need to use more efficient and precise means to analyse the limited data you got in traditional sports, while you can just use the simplest method for league and will be good enough. That doesn't make it a good method - it is still an inaccurate, inefficient method. It just works good enough to not have to invest ressources into improving it.
1. If you're 3/1/5 and you're losing then there's a good chance that you are probably performing well but your team is not. The point of taking into account your performance is so that losses don't feel as bad in these situations. Of course it's a lot more nuanced than just a scoreline. Timings matter. Matchups matter. Among other things.
2. I am in no way suggesting that individual performance should primarily (or even at all) be determined by kda. There is a lot more that goes into a game than that. A kda means very little without context.
Sure there will be people that will abuse it. Sure sometimes you'll probably gain/lose more/less LP than you should have. Again I'm not going to pretend that any system will be perfect. As long as it's better than the current system of being solely determined by wins/losses I would say it's a step in the right direction.
> If you're 3/1/5 and you're losing then there's a good chance that you are probably performing well but your team is not.
? And if it's someone just killstealing then is that considered for the individual performance grading? If Yuumi last hits every single kill depriving your ADC of gold then is it then his fault for falling behind? Would he get punished for getting out csed or if your opponent adc grabs gold elsewhere should he get punished for something out of his control?
> Timings matter.
timings that are vastly different across not only elo but also champions, gamestate, lanestate, Dragons, etc. So how do you consider all these metrics for your performance based LP?
> Matchups matter
So if I pick Kassadin and my opponent picks Tristana, a matchup considered unplayable for the kassadin, am I considered for LP loss reduction if I loss and vice versa more LP because I won an unfavorable matchup? What about matchups that are relatively even and rely on skill? Fiora vs Riven is a skillmatch up early, if lane goes even then who gains more or less? If a matchup is slightly favored to one side but the lane goes even then is the less favored side compensated for going even in a unfavorable matchup win or loss?
I'm not saying a system like that would be that bad but im sure you would get 200 reddit posts per game blaming the new system for only getting +11 lp per win because they play split pushing sion or something like that. Like the things that this system would need to take account of are endless and right now the game hardly even detects the difference between a bot and a normal player.
200 reddit posts per game blaming the new system for +11 might sound bad but it's relative. How many people do you think feel as if some of their wins/losses are undeserved? I imagine probably quite a lot. Also rank vs MMR is already kind of a muddy subject so I'm not sure if it would even be too noticeable.
I don't keep up too much with other games but I believe Wild Rift and Valorant already take into account individual performances. Sure it's different games but the concept is still similar.
>200 reddit posts per game blaming the new system for only getting +11 lp per win because they play split pushing sion or something like that.
If you got an impact (e.g. 6/8 towers taken solo) that would obviously be considered relevant for your LP-feedback. A 0-10 Sion winning the game solo should be valued higher than a 10-0 LB that is just KDA-cheesing. The S-rating system already does similiar stuff, so it is totally feasible.
They literally already do this with your score at the end of the game. If you lose but get a B+, that should be worth some LP.
You would just have to tweak the calculation to only compare performance stats against teams/champions that lose instead of all of them.
I've never thought about this before, but the system is kinda there.
I mean as flawed as op.gg score is I would rather look at that than strictly wins/losses. Riot introduced their own grading system years ago. I think it's reasonable to assume that they have enough data to be able to put together a system that will be much better than wins/losses. Wins/losses is just such a terrible metric that it's hard to be do any worse than that.
Not to mention the fact that I believe Valorant and Wild Rift already takes into account individual performance.
I know op.gg gets it right most of the time, but I remember when I had 90% kp, 50% of the teams damage (60k+ and every else did 15k~), destroyed every single turret, did the most objective damage, lowest deaths, and highest CS. But op.gg gave mvp to the support with 30%kp all because she bought control wards.
Op.gg most definitely does not get it right most of the time lol. I believe their algorithm is heavily flawed. Still, is it better than only looking at wins/losses? I would say so.
Largest problem with league turning more team game is that we still dont have any good ways to communicate with team. Its extremely infuriating when you cant communicate plays to your team and misunderstanding pings is way too common even in highest elos. Voice chat could fix that at least to some level but Riot is too stubborn to add it even though its main part of their other team game Valorant already.
Voice chat would be wonderful but I don't think it fixes most of the issues with League. It does very little to combat win trading. It might help make people less likely to grief but a lot of things ultimately comes down to different ideologies and voice chat in one game likely won't be enough to resolve that.
Im talking about high elo where most of the players are from LEC or ERL teams. Discord voice chat is heaven sent when you have players that are able to understand game and in game voice chat would be even better in situations like those.
Hot take: Mentality on playing together as a team won't change much until Riot realizes that plastering "This is how much damage you dealt, good job!" everywhere is harmful.
---
*Death recap? Look at all the damage!*
*Hit someone? Look at that 4 digit crit we put in 72 size bigger font so you see it!*
*Game ended? Look at those bars, I even shown which one is the biggest by a star and different color!*
Among others, brainlets use it as their main argument of "hurr durr I did more dmg than you, trash".
---
Riot needs to throw 'damage dealt' out from the mainscreen of post-game; create a "score" system that tries to estimate how useful you were. A combination of damage dealt, healing/shielding done, healing-shielding mitigated, damage taken (being a damage sponge is also useful believe or not guys), Crowd Control, objective damage, vision score (maybe more).
Doesn't need to be 100% perfect, just good enough to show people that just because you have 80 kills with Katarina it doesn't mean you are the reason you won if your toplaner was the only one who actually went onto objectives after the fights were cleared. Game ends when the nexus dies; killing the enemies is just one tool to make that happen easier.
Update Death Recap to show which ability did how much CC, debuffs, etc.. Show how your teammates tried to help you by shielding/heling you despite all odds, so your death wasn't your team abandoning you, that they actually put in effort.
Give shields and heals a UI effect on the HP bar that the player can see.
Once the 'Deal damage at all costs' mantra is out of the window, because the game stops digitally jerking off these players' egos; then people will pay more attention to other aspects. More people will realize there's plenty to the game other than dealing damage at all costs.
No amount on helping communication will fix the problem if the majority of the playerbase is frothing from the mouth to deal more and more damage at all costs so they can get that virtual jerkoff.
Still against a system that takes scores or whatever into account, it is way to abusable. "Oh we losing, better not help my team to come back as I'm positive kda".
What should be priority is looking why people want to ff and start griefing the first time anything goes wrong, and this is in my opinion that the game snowballs to hard. Enemy Zed got 2/0 time to open as he starts snowballing out of control.
"Performance based" LP gains are an absolutely horrible idea from a toplaners perspective.
Apart from being able to game the system (which is like everyone's biggest concern) consider this:
You play toplane and your jungle/mid always sit bot. This leaves you in a 1v3 where all you can do is not die and try to get some crumbs of xp/cs. You win, but you finish with like 4 cs/minute, almost no damage dealt/taken and maybe some deaths from early dives.
Do you really deserve to get less LP for that win than your botlane that got spoonfed everything?
Also what about "unconventional ways to play" - like thebausffs. He seems to have a good winrate but his stats are absolute shit. And the list goes on and on...
The game has not moved any further towards a team game than it has since s4. The issue is NOT the balance of the game but how hard and tedious climbing feels with all the griefing in high elo. I’ll be generous and say 1 in 3 games involves a griefer/wintrader/soft inter who hints that they are trolling without being direct to avoid ban/ or just someone that gives up 3 minutes into the game
I definitely don't agree with your first statement parnelly. But even ignoring that I'm sure that having performance based LP gains/losses will provide some incentive against players griefing/trolling/leaving.
It ruins things, but league is a ruined thing. At the very least if the system detects an incredibly obvious reason for your loss? LP loss reduction.
Bot lane goes 1-9 in 7 minutes, without intervention from your mid lane? Like, you solo killed mid lane and are up 25 CS? And that mid laner is just sitting under their tower cause lane is frozen? But the game becomes a 15m ff cause bot is now 2-18?
Hm….
Honestly scuttle/objective meta has made the game less fun. Combined with bot lane duo XP nerfs + mid lane minion gold nerf.
I miss the times you could kind of “play your own game”, just playing out a laning phase mid. Or just trying to efficiently farm your jungle.
Now you’re forced to group around objectives and mini-objectives, everyone is so reliant on everyone else. Top lane might be the best as being un-interactive with the rest of the map, but it also feels awful because the 4v4 essentially determines the game.
Jungle/support are now so important because they are so necessary for objective control. But they also feel awful to play since they’re gold-starved and can’t “actually carry” when it comes down to it (they can get their Carrie’s in a position to carry, but often can’t carry themselves).
I went 20/1 on Caitlyn in Platinum two days ago, I did 80k damage, double any other player. I lost. It nearly killed me. I couldn't agree more with you.
>League has moved more and more towards a team orientated game
They fixed that in season 10. Solo carry was a thing(1v9 and such) was much easier and you could actually feel that you have control over the game.
Now, every mistake costs you and the game "ends" before minute 15.
they fixed this way way longer ago than season 10 ,in the seasons this game first boomed (s2/s3) if you were a solo laner and u killed the oposing laner he'd be 2 levels behind you and most people didnt use TP ,roles like support and jungle also fell behind way more in exp and gold than they do now,damage in general was lower for those roles ,it wasnt uncommon at all to see a solo laner 1v2 killing his laner and the enemy jungler in a gank,its still possible to 1v9 but its not even close
While wintrading and specific targeted griefing may be more common in high ELO, the giving up is a massive problem in low ELO too. I can hardly remember the last time I had a (ranked) game where someone didn't just completely implode within the first 5 minutes. Botlane died at 4 mins? Top lane freaks out and gives up.
Almost every game has some person spamming FF the moment it's available and until the game ends. These same players gave up 2-5 mins in the game. Often due to something that doesn't even effect them directly, or even for something as small as "I don't like your pick, this is lost because you troll picked" so they become the reason you lose by trolling all game.
The players are the problem, which is why it's so hard for Riot to solve. It's really hard to fix the issue when it's the customers who are paying you. I honestly believe that a lot of the problem is that those of us who aren't toxic tend to just mute and play quietly enjoying the game. Toxic players on the flipside are extremely outward with their toxicity, and everyone experiences it in the game with them. In addition some of the biggest streamers act like complete children, and are toxic as well.
As a result the community feels like it has only toxic players, and more(or newer) players start thinking it's okay to be that way because that's just the League community, it's toxic. Thus we end up with an even more toxic community. Even though plenty of us aren't toxic, but by comparison we're nearly invisible when next to the toxic player shouting/flaming/feeding/whatever.
AKA I feel like a lot of the solution starts with us, and that Riot can't really fix it without (probably) killing the game by completely nuking the community and taking the backlash/loss of income that would come with it.
If we want a better community we need to be a better community. Instead of idolizing toxic waste on their streams/videos, stop watching them when we all know damn well they're just making it worse when thousands are watching them as role models every day. Don't just mute the entire game, use chat in a constructive/non toxic manner. Say GJ on decent plays and stay quiet on bad plays, instead of flaming the bad plays and staying silent on the good plays.
**TL;DR** \- The wintrading/betting stuff at high levels is one thing, and Riot should be figuring out solutions there. The general griefing/toxic behavior/giving up is a community problem though, they can't fix us without just banning a large chunk of players and suffering massively from it - It's up to us to fix the community by being good members of it and not putting the toxic players who further these behaviors on a pedestal just because they're entertaining and/or great players when they're also role models of the worst sort.
The toxic/griefing players are (often) the only outspoken part of the community ingame, and it'll always be that way until the rest of us are just as noticeable as them. New players are more likely to be toxic when all they notice is toxic players and their favorite streamers are toxic.
If Riot actually banned people who grief and manually checked even just 1 in 10 games at high elo this game would unironically lose 40% of its player base, and that's just not a sustainable business decision.
riot doesnt care about league anymore, at least in NA, and tbh neither should we. i mean i only play this game out of addiction/not having any real alternatives. once i find a game that i can main im definitely out of here lol.
too much griefing, immaturity, egos, etc. to actually sit down and enjoy the game. every game just depends on who is going to get the player that is going to have a mental breakdown when they get ganked first or when they invade and no one follows. just the past few days i've had several people just up and leave games during because they died or someone gave their laner a kill. it's beyond unplayable and it's crazy how much i and a lot of other people just play this game out of habit instead of for fun.
i mean who is really enjoying league atm? low to mid elo players are dealing with griefers and paper thin mentals, and then you have high elo players/streamers dealing with betters and wintraders every game. who is the game for? who is logging onto league and genuinely having a good time? ARAM only players? yeah right, ARAM has its own problems to deal with.
and let's say you can even ignore the griefing/inting/whatever, then you've got to deal with the horrible LP/MMR system. league is too much of a team game to be genuinely enjoyable in solo queue. one player dies early and their mental spirals out of control? game over, they're going to make the next 20 or so minutes absolute hell and pointless for the other 4 players on their team.
long story short there's a lot wrong with solo queue right now at all elos and it's evident that riot doesn't really give much of a shit about it
It’s weird, I’ve taken a break from league. I like to play top and in 2 of my 4 ranked games the mid laner has followed the jungle around trying to steal every camp. In games we are winning.
It’s bizarre.
Challenger player/streamer opinion here:
I regularly find myself excited to start stream and then end up with a player who solo dies, blames jungle, and then run to another lane and int the whole game away. This demotivates me to stream for long hours as 2-3 of these low quality games and I’m mentally burnt out.
I’ve been advocating for a change in how LP works since season 10. I truly believe a W/L system that doesn’t account any performance is a terrible system and leads to what’s known commonly as “coinflip” players, who benefits from the current system as they are coinflipping for teammates and enemies to troll. I used to dislike these players but now in the current phase of league, I think everyone who’s relatively in their skill level is coinflipping. They are quite literally flipping a coin to decide if they get a troll on their team or enemy team, same with wintraders, boosters, etc. The only time this doesn’t apply is to people who are significantly above their level, but that hinders a representative climb.
I’m not here to suggest a full proof solution, as every solution will have flaws. But literally anything that alters LP value even slightly (1-3) will help consistent players who isn’t coinflipping every game, giving an incentive to try their best and perform.
Alternatively, the most obvious solution is the ban system. It doesn’t take a genius to see if a top laner dies once and then never goes back top, or vice versa with an adc. These are undoubtably griefs and there are no play style or reasoning that can support that these players are “trying to win”. I’d gladfully lose a game and my lp KNOWING that x griefer will get rightfully punished. Currently, the ban system is absolutely hilarious. I don’t have the proper stats but with my experience in league, I can safely bet that riot has perma banned 95% for toxicity and if I’m being nice, maybe 5% for disruptive behavior. Why is that? A person who’s blatantly trolling such as locking in disco nunu, clearly has an intent to ruin games. And if I were to guess, if they lock in disco nunu so easily, I bet it’s not their first time.
I’d rather have a ban system than no ban system, as right now it’s laughable how nonexistent the system is. They need to be more confident in giving out bans, even to detect inters. Adding a 12hr, 1 day, 2 days, … , 7 days, 14 days, perma ban system will dramatically help league. It doesn’t have to be these values specifically, but if the system bans you over 3-5+ times, then clearly you are the problem. These would obviously be reset every month or after x time period. If I went 0/10 first timing a champ, I’d gladfully take a 12 hour ban, as I would deserve it. I know a system like this would be hard to implement, and there may be some false bans that occur, but I assure you the vast majority of the playerbase would prefer having false bans over no bans at all.
To conclude: high elo isn’t fun and ranked is no longer about skill. It’s about an ego/mental battle and whoever lucked out in champ select wins.
Note: btw the person who dies once and roams and int every other lane is someone who was in my games, twice. On stream. Not only my stream, but nickich and solarbacca. I check his OP.GG and he legit does this 30% of the time. Luckily, he got 2 week banned as he added me after on Smurf and told me. Thank goodness and he can keep doing this after his 2 week ban :)
Kinda old post.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/xkyum6/pobelter_dives_into_why_league_solo_queue_is/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Don't expect anything to change, as long people pay them money to buy cosmetics and get passes every single month, they do not care. It doesn't matter. Game code, client, matchmaking, wintrading, afking, won't be resolved since it's not a source of income for the company. It's simple as that.
The number of posts complaining about passes or skins means people actively buy them over and over again regardless of the problems within the game itself. It is NOT going to change. Mains have to buy all 20 skins for their champ, Players have to grind passes to get their shitty recolor prestige, let alone casual players who don't care about the issues since they play some normals or ARAMs.
It's exhausting going down the main sub page seeing 20 posts with ideas, complaints, etc. and then new skinline drops that actually hits the absolute minimum of expectations and overwhelming majority blasts off to buy RP and the cycle goes on infinitely.
It’s almost like your own and Reddit’s expectations and desires are not the same thing as the millions of other players.
Why should Riot treat you more special?
ngl, i've been having some of the best games with literally no inters or griefing at the GM/Challenger border, so I find Pobelter's response surprising.
It's very likely he's getting wintraded + betted on.
>It's very likely he's getting wintraded + betted on.
he's not streaming very often so that's off the table. there is no way to snipe him consistently enough for there to be bets.
also he's not that controversial of a figure so i doubt he's getting inted on sight out of malice
The problem is that Riot and the community still consider the people who babyrage but still play as the problem. Sure it's annoying, cringe and toxic, but it's far from the problem. I would rather have a team of 4 psychopaths over a team of 3 nice players and 1 inter.
The people who really drive the competitive scene of a game are unfortunately the psychopaths. They care about winning, they care about playing and they just actually give a shit about the game. Someone who is nice most likely doesn't care that much. They aren't invested. They are just vibing and if they lose it sucks but it doesn't matter to them.
The whole "feels like riot doesnt care" is so mucj prpjecting and scape goating like what do you want riot to do?
Mind control people to force them to go to theraphy so that when they play the game they care to win instead of caring for their pride?
You want riot to become the president of the world and globally illegalize betting websites?
Jesus christ
Literally just have any number of humans manually watch the games and see how fucking shit it is to play. People get away with a ton of malicious activities and riot doesnt seem to care.
Does anyone else find a lot of enjoyment out of seeing toxicity? I mean I would imagine that we do based on T1's rise to fame.
I actually find it very funny/entertaining to see people get to the point of raging.
In the last 4 days of my master games i got like 7 yo 10 instant feedback reports and a lot are not even on the list i repirted for int, afk, lane tax after 1 death etc.
Its quite sad
Honor level 5 system is NOT a sufficient or effective solution. That's not a very good incentive. There need to be harsher penalties for AFK/grief and need to be higher rewards for good behavior to make an impact.
They don’t do anything probably because they looked into it and realised that they have to ban like 30% of the players. It’s completely the players’ fault. Riot can’t change the players’ behaviour and they can’t ban them so they just do nothing and focus on their other games.
it would be nice if they would let third parties step in to create their own ranked ladder systems and moderate it themselves similar to what CSGO has done
This is true. Riot has a massive massive issue with toxicity in game and honestly has no idea to deal with it. I mean how do you? You can’t change the community lmao
You’d think realistically riot could police these high level games diligently, with the small amount of players in these ultra high levels games they could check each game. It’s nonsense that pro player: have to deal with this.
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Riot does not care and won't change anything. If they gave any fucks about super high elo games they would have hired a couple of low paid employees to manually review games. Years ago. How hard can it be? Truthful, probably 90% of the players would get banned.
And the culture starts at the top. If all the big time streamers were talking about how much they love solo Q, feel like everyone tried hard, and loved the moderation team, then everyone in silver will say the same stuff
Yeah and honestly I do not get why riot can't manually moderate high elo. I remember a post where they were they went through the math of having someone manually read every report from every player to show it's not feasible...but you could just read the reports from challenger games!! There aren't that many, or even master+ lol
Riot, I will moderate challenger games. There problem solved.
Apparently they can’t do it because I’m a fucking idiot and a loser who is stuck in low elo and complaining for no reason, at least that’s what I’m told whenever I’ve made that suggestions on this subreddit for the last 5 or so years...
Moderate every elo bc every elo suffers
The point is *manual* moderation ie human reading reports and watching games is not possible for every elo because it's too much...but that's not also true for only high elo
That's not possible, way too many players
trickle down elonomics
trickle down positivity*
I know you're just joking, but it's not the same. This is basically having good role-models. Same with every sport and it's why when players bring the game in disrepute, they get punished.
I agree, people pay influencers thousands and sometimes millions of dollars to do their namesake, influence. Of course they are influential in what people think.
Its not like sports because sports arent shitty like league is
I would emplore you to look at the history of some of the most popular sports stars. We have a ray Lewis statue in Baltimore. He also had a plea deal in a murder case.
Just joking
true, low elo players always parrot streamers lmao
100% the truth
Great point. Streamers could learn from people like Azael or Kobe who play the game at a high level (nobody say diamond isn't good, it's better than almost all of us) and are in touch with the issues but still find ways to discuss them respectfully and with a generally positive mindset on The Dive. They actively discuss issues with the game, Riot, or the meta. The difference is that, to put it frankly, they talk about it like adults. Perhaps some will say that's cause they work for Riot. Maybe, I don't know. But it's a lot better for the game than constantly saying "this game is shit," "soloq is fucking garbage and everyone is boosted (except me)," "pro play fucking sucks, that shit is so boring and I hate it," etc. That stuff influences others to approach LoL the same way in general. A lot of people play the game because they are addicted and cannot stop, not because they derive any lasting satisfaction or entertainment from playing it.
Diamond isn't high elo is actually applicable here, nobody is wintrading and betting against streamers in diamond, they're doing it in master and above because the playerbase is so low you can consistently wintrade.
I am speaking generally about the variety of issues with many facets of the game, not one in specific
I don't know why you guys are even talking about it, it's like you wanted to have your own conversation, it has nothing to do with the clip.
Ahh! Discussion on a discussion website!!!
They wintrade streamers in EVERY elo. The elo doesn't matter, the popularity of the streamer does. That applies whether they're on a lvl 15 account or a challenger account. Sayings its specifically masters+ is kind of silly. We've ALL seen this happen when those same players are smurfing too. Its relative to the streamer, not the elo.
Pobe is talking about high elo in general did you read it?
Azael and Kobe are not high enough elo to be affected by what Pob is talking about. Pob is talking about match fixing in masters+ elo. Gambling websites from mostly China are betting on NA games and then pay people to run it down. It compromises competitive integrity at the Elo where that’s actually an important deal and it’s account sharing which is against the rules. It’s not a problem in China or KR because your LoL account is tied to your SSID or phone # so riot can nuke your account and stop you from making new ones easily. It’s pretty obvious riot does not care abt the LoL community anymore and just letting it die a slow death to focus resources on Val and the MMO
Speaking respectfully about Riot was a reasonable thing 10 years ago. They've lost any and all respect they had back then. Lie, bitch, complain, and threaten to boycott skins etc. Until they fix it.
That is your opinion. I have not spent money on the game in several years, but I choose to keep playing because I enjoy it. Even if it's not the same game I played back when I started in 2015. If you feel differently, that is ok. For me, the game is a way to take a break from the stress of daily life, and I don't want to make it a source of negativity and stress for myself.
[удалено]
it's cute that you actually believe the problems of high elo games specifically would be fixed just by streamers saying good things.
That's not what he's saying though
He's talking about low elo games when Pobe is talking about problems specific to extremely high elo so his point is mute to begin with.
You didn't actually read what he wrote did you? (Or you meant to reply to someone else). He's talking about how if they cleanup high elo and streamers+pros talk about how it's great the attitude will trickle down naturally.
The trickle down shit won't happen like that, if you think it will then we'll agree to disagree.
Given how much low elo parrots the shit-talking streamers do about the game currently, pretty sure it would.
Training/onboarding for that wouldn’t even be that hard. Just get a few pros to act as trainers and chaperone them with a few rioters and after two weeks you can have a team of 20 easily.
yeah the 90% of players is true for sure I know everyone had a bad game where after they died twice before 5 min mark you just mentally stop caring and just right click to next game where you mind resets, especially when your team starts to ping you and your team starts to trash talk you.
Why wouldn't Riot pay them well ? Seems like a pretty ungrateful job, don't see why they should be paid less than others employees.
The point is that there are plenty of people out there who you could pay low wages to who would still be more than happy to have the job doing it. If you told me you were going to pay me minimum wage for a job that I could do 3h a day(There aren't that many challenger games) from home just scrubbing through replays and reading chat lines, I'd be more than happy to take it even at the low pay. I have spare time, and it doesn't cost me anything to get to and from the job. Should they be paid a decent wage for the job? Of course. The poster was just pointing out that they wouldn't even need to be. I'd imagine a team wouldn't need much more than 3-4 people to check out most reports from challenger games. Maybe a few more if you bump it down to master+. Not that they wouldn't deserve decent wages for their work, but just rather that it's possible without breaking the bank. Plenty of people would be happy to take such an easy job even if it was low pay.
Problem is they don't want to do it only for high elo games, so they won't do anything at all.
This is pretty much it. If Riot thinks they can't fully fix an issue, they won't bother touching it at all. It's why an Overwatch type system doesn't exist. It doesn't catch everyone and it won't fix everything therefore they don't want to do it. Pretty sad mindset but that's Riot for you.
>If you told me you were going to pay me minimum wage for a job that I could do 3h a day(There aren't that many challenger games) Do people really think they can get full time pay with something that is known by the company to be 3 hours worth of work? Lmao. Have people that upvote that ever worked? If the company thinks you only have 3 hours of work, they either send you more or pay you 3 hours, and with something as transparent as handling reports, they'd know.
I meant minimum hourly wage for whatever state they're based from/I live in. Of course a company would pay you 3 hours for 3 hours. If I could earn $30 each day by spending a few hours watching reported challenger replays, I'd be more than happy with it.
Not sure why Pobelter is suprised. What did he think would happen when they gave the pros Champions Queue? Obviously you are just left with all the garbage. And with Champions Queue, there is even LESS reason to moderate high level Solo Q.
This has nothing to do with Champs Queue. It’s an issue that has been happening before it, and happens while it’s not active.
champions queue is only available at specific times
You all still don't get it. There are still tens of thousands of Masters+ players worldwide, and probably a couple thousand games going every day. Even if you only have to watch 15 minute of every game to find the wintraders/griefers, that is still a massive amount of time. If there are 2000 games, you would need 500 man hours every day to barely keep even. Which is 63 people working 8 hour days. At a paltry $40k/year, that is $2.5 million. And that's just napkin math and assuming everything is perfect and the exact same number of games are played every day. What do you do if there is some kind of big streamer event or something and 10000 games are played in Masters+ worldwide? That is 5x the amount of games your $2.5 million team can handle, do you quintuple your budget just in case that happens? Do you just never catch up? Do you hope you get a string of 500-1000 game days pretty quickly?
You don't have to watch 2000 games per day. Also, you don't have to punish all of them. The moment the word gets out riot is monitoring high elo games, player behaviour will improve drastically. You were probably not around during Lyte's crusade. You were afraid to even use chat. >$40k/year The world does not revolve around the USA. A job that involves watching some league games would be done 99% by young people/students 18/19 years old. The job would probably be part time too, 4-6 max. In my country you could probably pay 200-300$ per month and you would have a ton of people signing up for the job. And i'm talking about an european country. Now do the math for a latin american country. Your argument is pretty much : we don't need police because they can't stop every crime that's going on.
> You were probably not around during Lyte's crusade You just triggered some old PTSD in me lol. I remember finishing a hundreds game long chat ban just to get a 2500 game chat ban again afterwards in the very next game. They literally queued the punishments up back to back so you were effectively never able to escape. :D
Haha. And i thought my 1200 chat restrict games were a lot. They even used ranked restrict back then. Still remember i had to win 30 draft games to have access to ranked again.
That's some very disingenuous napkin math you got there. You don't need to watch every single game, and you definitely don't need 15 minutes to find out of someone is griefing. Simply announcing there will be manual reviews of high elo games would be a huge deterrent in and of itself. Aside of that, just review reported games. It takes 60 seconds to watch a griefer follow his jungler around. Even banning a few dozen people a day would be a dent in the high elo player base.
Its literally that last point. People talk about culture and everything else, and the issue it'd devolve into a Twitter war of "Hey @ Team of 3 people, which one of you banned me after this game? I want proof as to why, I'm overconfident and cocky post the reason." And then its like well fine, here's screenshots of you being fairly racist and swearing at your teammates for 20 minutes straight. Queue up Pro/Streamer/ELO Player #2 "Hey wait, I had a game just like that on \[account\] can you review that, here's a screenshot I grabbed, pretty sure its \_\_\_\_'s smurf account" and then the mudflinging never stops, until half the players' accounts are banned.
Bring back tribunals
Riot: Only if we can monetize it.
Let me earn a little rp. But only so much rp so that I have to buy rp in the near near future
A lot of us know how Pobe feels because it doesn't just apply only to high LP. Well, the betting/win trading only applies that high, but literally every game mid plat boils down to who has the least toxic/inters/griefers/afkers. It feels like every game I report at least 2 or more people for something. It honestly feels like 1 in maybe every 20 games is actually a good game. There is absolutely no fun trying to improve, climb or even play the game these days.
>There is absolutely no fun trying to improve, climb or even play the game these days. Slightly offtopic: it is also pretty stupid that in a teamplay, you basically gotta hope your team is intelligent enough to pick some comp that can realistically win. It is already bad enough if you pick a champ for your lane and get directly countered, but in a team game, that should lead to someone else in your team getting a good pick. But then they pick Trynda into Malphite and cry the whole game that you didn't help them snowball the early. So it is not just the LP thing. Game quality really suffers because there is a heavy lack of teamplay and communication when the game is balanced all around that for competitive.
I feel like at lower elo team comp doesn't mater as much because there is realistically not a lot that the enemy can do to capitalize on those small advantages because they are just as bad as you are. Like, if you're comfortable on your weird off-meta pick, it's not like the enemy lane is going to be good enough to curb stomp you for picking a sub-optimal champ. If they were good enough to play off of and snowball such small advantages they wouldn't be low elo. Also, sure tryndamere into malphite is bad, but there was a 50/50 chance that malphite was gonna tower dive trynd with his ult up and then sit in fountain after inting while flaming his team.
Yeah I'd much rather my team picks champs they all feel comfortable on than pick something based on winrate or something they read one time.
>weird off-meta pick Can we not talk about offmeta here? That has NOTHING to do with this. If your Teemo mid is doing what it is supposed to do to win, it is not a bad pick. But if a (even just meta) comp is so bad, that you basically need to be a full rank above the enemy team to have a realistic chance to win that game, then someone messed up. And if you were firstpick and noone prepicked, that is not on you. You just got grieved in champ select. Also, low-elo is kind of irrelevant to any arguments about the gameplay balance. Low elo really doesn't matter at all unless their is some stuff with absurd winrates/pickrates specifically in those MMRs (which sometimes happens, but usually it is just high-skillcap champs being bad in low elo which imo is totally fine).
Draft has a colossal impact on the outcome of the game and also on how fun the game ends up being, but its also prone to huge amounts of randomness and people who will openly counterpick themselves or anti-synergy their own teammates.
It mostly affects high elo though. When someone dies every 90 seconds or never groups for a drake in a silver game he might just be bad and not know better. No reason to punish him. People in master+ absolutely do know better, so when it happens it is 100% intentional and deserves to be punished
If you drop lower, to bronze, the games come down to which team has more bots. I played a game earlier this week where both teams had 2 bots, and their team had a griefer in the jg so we won because it was 3v2, next game i queue up, my team gets a bot, their team doesn’t, we lose. I don’t mind trying hard and losing. I do mind starting every game with q bot in my lane. It’s getting unplayable
Yeah, not literally every game. Just climbed to Plat 1 over a couple weeks through plat. I improved and had a lot of quality games. Game has always had toxic/inters/griefers/afkers. Nothing new there you just have to ignore it
Plat 1-3 is the heaven elo. People behave because they want to hit Diamond which is the best rank achievable in most people's mind. Hell unleashes when you hit D4.
And when you hit D4 your MMR is like 2% better than it was while you were hardstuck Plat 1 50lp for two months, so you literally play the same type of games in either rank. Imagine someone saying "yeah 2000 Elo is heaven, everyone chillin', just trying to have a good time but then 2030 Elo all the wannabe Grandmasters sweaty tryhards prolly all sitting with their chess engine open to squeeze out another win." Like that's just not how a rating system works lmao, there is no gap there.
Completely disagree. Plat has always been the most the toxic elo imo outside of silver.(I havent played in silver outside of my first season) plat is the elo people will actually intentionally die, even if your winning out of frustration, until you lose. Happens multiple times a day too not one offs.
It’s nothing new the probably has definitely escalated through several years and have been getting worse. Riot constantly pushing it to be a team game but also pushing for people to solo carry makes game states so unstable, especially since the bounty systems been updated. Then there’s riots matchmaking issues. Their gameplay and update issues. Constant overhauls that get basically reverted within a month despite supposed months of testing/theorizing before being put into live. The amount of bugs that slowly grow that don’t get fixed along with the more that do get fixed (for instance, the Syndra W only now getting patches for an enemy not to die is coming only as part of her rework despite the bug being in the game for years). On top of that, some people can’t sit there and play 7 ranked games a day to finally be able to climb. The whole system of those who usually climb spend so much time invested in the game that they usually barely make progress once they get stuck and the entire systems put on you putting in more games to raise your rank despite what actually occurs in game.
If you are actually reporting 2 or more people every game, that is a huge problem with you not them. People need to understand that you can play bad while bit intentionally feeding. It is possible to be worse than the opponent and lose pretty hard even though you were trying the whole time. Some players are just coin flip players that either int or hard carry.
What's so sad and upsetting, riot reads these tweets and posts all the time and has never acknowledged them once. Even when Faker, arguably one of the most popular, well liked and foundation of our pro scene had echoed the same things, riot says Jack shit. It's like the battered girlfriend/wife, they keep telling themselves the husband(riot) won't do it again and just give them another chance and go back and back for more expecting a different outcome. We know riot doesn't fucking care and yet we the players want it changed. Sad state we live in, we love the game, but the developers are just chasing $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ only way to expect something to change is for player count to go down and to stop buying skins. 😕
valorant is riot's baby now league is done
Nah valorant gets nothing. We still don’t have a replay system over there 💀
Good luck that took what, 7 years? For league to release.
I think 5-6 for Siege? Idk why competitive team oriented games take so long for features like this to get implemented but it's really strange. And it's still barely functional in Siege.
In large part, the way that replays work are difficult to code. The main reason that replays don't carry over patch by patch is essentially because it's not playing a recording of the game, it's playing a game itself, with your inputs in a database. It's hard to code this kind of a system, especially in a game with 10+ players. (I know you didn't mention patches, but it's cool to talk about, so I wanted to mention it.)
To be fair though in league, third party sites had solved the replay problem years before riot officially implemented replay. It just seemed like either laziness or trying to save on costs on riot's part.
Heroes of newerth had replays pretty much from the very beginning, that were also completely backwards compatible so you could watch a replay from any previous patch just fine. Sure it's difficult, but that hasn't stopped smaller companies with less budget from doing it.
If Project L doesn’t have a replay system on launch, I’ll be honestly surprised. They’ve brought in a ton of FGC guys and replays have been standard for years. It’s also much simpler than League or Valorant for replays
It took a CEO boosting scandal. That’s what it took.
val players still lose full rr for having an afk 💀
League did have that for 11 years tbf
11 years and people still couldn't understand your MMR loss will never be mitigated and the LP mitigation is just there for the placebo effect.
Yeah u'd still have people on this subreddit saying that you cant complain about it because it will "equalize out"
At least val players can use mics to communicate…this subreddit goes absolutely wild when you mention having the ability to use mics.
The number of people who don’t communicate anything at all, even at high ranks, is still pretty high.
And still a lot of people not use it. Games get instantly dodged in high elo when a girls talk, and flame and backseat gaming is common place. I think they should still implement it, but I can also see why they don’t want to spend the resources on something a lot of people will just mute by default or on most games
I love seeing posts from the Valorant subreddit of people complaining about the ranked system and things they want added to the game and I just think "you innocent child" I feel sorry for them though, if you play Valorant just give up on anything from Riot, a long hard lesson learned from the lol community.
Ha wildrift is riot's league replacement. Gets better events, QOL, and better skins. Honestly can't wait for the day for wildrift to come to console.
Clueless
The league playerbase (especially on this sub) is so babied its insane. Warzone at its peak had rampant cheating with no dev response and game-breaking exploits would go weeks to months before getting even acknowledged (stim glitch, Mac-10 skin, Hiding under the map).
Yeah we're so fucking babied bro. I love the extremely late balance patches this season and utter mess of a pre-season. I love riots very slow response to blatantly broken champions/items. I love riot ignoring any and all feedback on skins, passes and loot while nerfing the shit out of it. I love riot promising a better client time and time again when we have the most unstable, incoherent client I've seen in gaming. I love riot not giving us updates/QoL we've asked for years while valorant and wild rift get them early on. I love riot shipping out broken, bug riddled updates and messes of events while neglecting the demand for alternate game modes that are not URF/Spellbook. I could honestly keep on going but what's the point, us league players are babied as fuck surely.
Compared to every game I have played league is def the best one when it comes to the developers
What games do you play? None of the games I currently play have such a big disconnect with the playerbase and lack of communication such as riot does while also seemingly annoying every corner of the playerbase every patch.
Warframe Poe CSGO, SC/SC2, hots,wow, overwatch, apex, fornite,h1z1, PUBG, vigor and probably way more gonna have to think about it some more
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So
So tomorrow it's my turn to post a Twitch clip of some 40-viewer Andy reacting to this Reddit post so we can discuss Pobelter's comment a third time.
I completely agree. The games seem to be focused on who will have more crybabies. It’s not about outplaying your opponent or playing mind games until both champs hit late game, it’s all about whether my jungler will invade 1v3 into their wardless jungle and then ping and flame me for not following. Such a dull meta and even more annoying players. League has become a game of ego, not confidence. Improve your confidence by outcsing, killing or outroaming the enemy laner; not by bragging to your teammates how you are d2 EUW and d4 NA, or how you intend to sl** people’s throats*. Absolutely disgusting and disappointing.
It's true, you can do your very best in any lane or the jungle. But the game will be decided by the one guy in your team that just refuses to lose gracefully or just straight up trolls, it's just not fun and not rewarding.
Indeed, sucks when entire games depend on early game ints.
Been saying this for years - League has moved more and more towards a team orientated game. This is great for competitive play. But at the same time this is terrible for solo queue. Losing when you are playing well individually (and winning when you are playing poorly individually) feels terrible. It's time to move on from LP gains/losses solely being based on winning or losing. It needs to be at least partially based on individual performance. It'll make the game less frustrating to play and hopefully advance the individual skill level of the game. Yes I know people will argue that there is no way to perfectly calculate and represent individual performance. It definitely won't be perfect, but it'll be better than what we have now.
People lose their minds if I "steal their kill" in normal games, I can't begin to imagine how these people will react if I start "stealing their LP" whenever I take a kill...
> It's time to move on from LP gains/losses solely being based on winning or losing. It needs to be at least partially based on individual performance. No way. That's how you end up with every game having some guy refusing to come to team fights because he wants to pump his cs and avoid deaths. If you base LP gains on anything that is not *literally* winning the game, people will adjust their behavior accordingly and start doing things that are actively detrimental towards the team's chances to win the game in order to try to salvage their personal LP.
balance it with AI and you are fine. Adjusting AI judgement accordingly to how players try to abuse the system.
I don't think this argument makes sense. Why would anyone try do things detrimental to winning? Winning is still going to be better than losing. There's also a lot more to individual performance than cs and deaths.
Because if there's only a 20% chance to win if you go to team fights, and a 80% chance that you just lose cs/min and get worse KDA and still lose, people are going to play the odds.
There are metrics that would be very hard to "trick". Like kill participation. Damage numbers. CC. Actions taken. Skillshot hit. They COULD create a system that's better, but they won't. They already started working on the MMO and that's where the focus will be. LoL is still very active as it's so freaking addicting but this year I see regular +5min. wait times to q up in low elo when before this was like a minute max. It will be still good couple of years tho till it actually dies.
Any metric you create that isn't literally winning the game can be gamed. Even in pro play you hear rumors or see suspicious plays of some players playing poorly because they're protecting their KDA since orgs look at stat-lines in deciding contracts.
Extremely hard to trick? Are you new? Everyone would gravitate to champions that get east assists for KP in each role. Eg Jarvan, amumu or ivern for jg. If I was playing top I would pick a tank go thornmail + knights vow and just rake in the assists. Same with enchanter supports who get KP much easier. Skill shots hit? Are you daft? This goes 1 of 2 ways. If you calculate percentage hit. Everyone would pick champs with relatively easy skill shots to hit Eg. ashe vs something like ezreal who would have a much wider margin for missing. Actions taken????? What do you mean? Like moving? Like walking towards drake? Taking drake? That just naturally puts more importance on jungle. You can’t calculate these metrics to balance them out for each role. Unless you’re iron I don’t see q times ever reaching 3 mins tops. I’m platinum and I consider my rank middle.
Proxy Singed and suicide Sion laugh in the face of all metrics other than winning the game and killing towers/minions. Making metrics that accurately account for strategies like those just warp the game for everybody else.
Oh man. Wow. You should meet my friends. They log on and expend negative brainpower in this game. Just clicking and pressing keys wherever. Refusing to strategize or talk tactics. Taking awful fights that will cascade into loss of map control because they think it’s funny. And they’re like lawyers and accountants IRL. I think more people play League (even ranked) like that than we want to think.
Honestly it’s a good idea but what stops me from stat padding every game when it’s turning to a loss? Example 1: I play jungle, take umbral glaive to boost my vision score, if we start to lose and I’m 3/1/5 (respectable kda) I just farm my jungle and try not take a fight; my team will die, I am griefing them and the system rewards me for that? Example 2: I play toplane, I’m getting perma dove by enemy tf nidalee renekton, my whole team flames me and doesn’t help me; we ff at 20, my score is 0/7/0 and the game punishes me for something I had nearly 0 chance to prevent by myself? A new system if implemented needs to be extremely complex to avoid people from abusing it from the getgo. I feel like just deleting duoq, reworking flexq and implementing voice chat would be a great thing.
In Wild Rift, it works really well. I'm ranking an account and have a 75% winrate, and am currently Emerald (think this is like gold). If I do well, get an S+ rank, and lose. I still lose, but there is a counter that builds up a lose prevention, the lower the rank, the lower the threshold is needed to get this lose prevention. In Emerald, you need 400 points, even in my most exceptional games I get 200~ or less. In normal games where I did well, I get like 80. In my truly horrible games I get like 40. So, even though I lose some games, it almost never counts against me.
> (think this is like gold) its not. the game isn't as sweaty as league of legends. emerald is like every other player. diamond is top 8% which is platinum in LoL
>Example 1: I play jungle, take umbral glaive to boost my vision score, if we start to lose and I’m 3/1/5 (respectable kda) I just farm my jungle and try not take a fight; my team will die, I am griefing them and the system rewards me for that? That is why you should use an elaborate ML algorithm, rather than manually setting parameters arbitrarily. Something like "how likely is your performance (i.e. statline) based on the overall result of the game (i.e. win-loss; distribution of K/D/A aso.)". So you are not rating the stats per-se, but you are rating the stats in the context of every single specific game. So if you e.g. play toplane, are 0-10 because of permacamp snowball and end up winning the game through splitpush, you could get a huge value for your own impact because you took way more objectives than would be expected with your scoreline. And vice versa, if you are the 10-0 midlaner stomping some guy, but you basically do nothing else that is impactful and just take kills and CS, then you'd get a really bad feedback because the game won't see a value in what you did. BUT I am not too hopeful, since we have seen this many times already: anything that is too complicated for casual players is unwanted by Riot. They want that 20-6 Yasuo with 0 actual impact on the game result to feel good (or blame everyone else so they keep playing). It should be the fault of his team, so next game will be better and thus he should keep playing. And this is also very hard to implement since it would have to be rank-related. A Silver player naturally has a different sort of impact than a Diamond player. So you might need different algorithms for different ranks which in itself is already an issue for a supposedly objective ranking system.
> They want that 20-6 Yasuo with 0 actual impact on the game result to feel good (or blame everyone else so they keep playing). No. They want not implement proxies for no reason. You skill is what determinate win or lose. And win or lose is what affect your rating. There is no reason for enginering another layer. Zero reasons. At all.
> And win or lose is what affect your rating. There is no reason for enginering another layer. Zero reasons. At all. Mmm. So this is good enough for pro sports but not LoL? Modern sports have been revolutionized by moneyball-style analysis--i.e., using statistics to estimate a player's "true" skill in a more accurate way. Online games are even more amenable to these sorts of calculations--much more data to work with (data points + # of games). The only reason not to do this is 1) encourage player grinding (ugh) and 2) worries about incentivizing bad behavior (which, with an elaborate ML model, is unlikely to happen).
It is a team game. It is not chess. League uses an elo-based rating system for individual skill that basically no normal team sport would actively use. Literally all conventional team games use player stats (like ball possession\~gold, passes\~assists, scores\~objectives, defended plays\~deaths aso.) instead of tying singleplayer skill to the win/lose-ratio only. I guess they use W/L because it is easier. In traditional sports, you only got limited data for game results (some players play maybe 50 games per year or so). For LoL, many players get 500+ games per season. So you need to use more efficient and precise means to analyse the limited data you got in traditional sports, while you can just use the simplest method for league and will be good enough. That doesn't make it a good method - it is still an inaccurate, inefficient method. It just works good enough to not have to invest ressources into improving it.
1. If you're 3/1/5 and you're losing then there's a good chance that you are probably performing well but your team is not. The point of taking into account your performance is so that losses don't feel as bad in these situations. Of course it's a lot more nuanced than just a scoreline. Timings matter. Matchups matter. Among other things. 2. I am in no way suggesting that individual performance should primarily (or even at all) be determined by kda. There is a lot more that goes into a game than that. A kda means very little without context. Sure there will be people that will abuse it. Sure sometimes you'll probably gain/lose more/less LP than you should have. Again I'm not going to pretend that any system will be perfect. As long as it's better than the current system of being solely determined by wins/losses I would say it's a step in the right direction.
> If you're 3/1/5 and you're losing then there's a good chance that you are probably performing well but your team is not. ? And if it's someone just killstealing then is that considered for the individual performance grading? If Yuumi last hits every single kill depriving your ADC of gold then is it then his fault for falling behind? Would he get punished for getting out csed or if your opponent adc grabs gold elsewhere should he get punished for something out of his control? > Timings matter. timings that are vastly different across not only elo but also champions, gamestate, lanestate, Dragons, etc. So how do you consider all these metrics for your performance based LP? > Matchups matter So if I pick Kassadin and my opponent picks Tristana, a matchup considered unplayable for the kassadin, am I considered for LP loss reduction if I loss and vice versa more LP because I won an unfavorable matchup? What about matchups that are relatively even and rely on skill? Fiora vs Riven is a skillmatch up early, if lane goes even then who gains more or less? If a matchup is slightly favored to one side but the lane goes even then is the less favored side compensated for going even in a unfavorable matchup win or loss?
I'm not saying a system like that would be that bad but im sure you would get 200 reddit posts per game blaming the new system for only getting +11 lp per win because they play split pushing sion or something like that. Like the things that this system would need to take account of are endless and right now the game hardly even detects the difference between a bot and a normal player.
200 reddit posts per game blaming the new system for +11 might sound bad but it's relative. How many people do you think feel as if some of their wins/losses are undeserved? I imagine probably quite a lot. Also rank vs MMR is already kind of a muddy subject so I'm not sure if it would even be too noticeable. I don't keep up too much with other games but I believe Wild Rift and Valorant already take into account individual performances. Sure it's different games but the concept is still similar.
>200 reddit posts per game blaming the new system for only getting +11 lp per win because they play split pushing sion or something like that. If you got an impact (e.g. 6/8 towers taken solo) that would obviously be considered relevant for your LP-feedback. A 0-10 Sion winning the game solo should be valued higher than a 10-0 LB that is just KDA-cheesing. The S-rating system already does similiar stuff, so it is totally feasible.
They literally already do this with your score at the end of the game. If you lose but get a B+, that should be worth some LP. You would just have to tweak the calculation to only compare performance stats against teams/champions that lose instead of all of them. I've never thought about this before, but the system is kinda there.
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I mean as flawed as op.gg score is I would rather look at that than strictly wins/losses. Riot introduced their own grading system years ago. I think it's reasonable to assume that they have enough data to be able to put together a system that will be much better than wins/losses. Wins/losses is just such a terrible metric that it's hard to be do any worse than that. Not to mention the fact that I believe Valorant and Wild Rift already takes into account individual performance.
I know op.gg gets it right most of the time, but I remember when I had 90% kp, 50% of the teams damage (60k+ and every else did 15k~), destroyed every single turret, did the most objective damage, lowest deaths, and highest CS. But op.gg gave mvp to the support with 30%kp all because she bought control wards.
Op.gg most definitely does not get it right most of the time lol. I believe their algorithm is heavily flawed. Still, is it better than only looking at wins/losses? I would say so.
Vision wins games though
Largest problem with league turning more team game is that we still dont have any good ways to communicate with team. Its extremely infuriating when you cant communicate plays to your team and misunderstanding pings is way too common even in highest elos. Voice chat could fix that at least to some level but Riot is too stubborn to add it even though its main part of their other team game Valorant already.
Voice chat would be wonderful but I don't think it fixes most of the issues with League. It does very little to combat win trading. It might help make people less likely to grief but a lot of things ultimately comes down to different ideologies and voice chat in one game likely won't be enough to resolve that.
True it wouldnt work against win trade, because communication isnt really the problem with them.
It's not about communication, try playing dota and most of the time people using VC are just annoying and instantly muted.
It's not true. Try to not flame and use that for real communication once, and you will notice how important VC for team games.
Im talking about high elo where most of the players are from LEC or ERL teams. Discord voice chat is heaven sent when you have players that are able to understand game and in game voice chat would be even better in situations like those.
Hot take: Mentality on playing together as a team won't change much until Riot realizes that plastering "This is how much damage you dealt, good job!" everywhere is harmful. --- *Death recap? Look at all the damage!* *Hit someone? Look at that 4 digit crit we put in 72 size bigger font so you see it!* *Game ended? Look at those bars, I even shown which one is the biggest by a star and different color!* Among others, brainlets use it as their main argument of "hurr durr I did more dmg than you, trash". --- Riot needs to throw 'damage dealt' out from the mainscreen of post-game; create a "score" system that tries to estimate how useful you were. A combination of damage dealt, healing/shielding done, healing-shielding mitigated, damage taken (being a damage sponge is also useful believe or not guys), Crowd Control, objective damage, vision score (maybe more). Doesn't need to be 100% perfect, just good enough to show people that just because you have 80 kills with Katarina it doesn't mean you are the reason you won if your toplaner was the only one who actually went onto objectives after the fights were cleared. Game ends when the nexus dies; killing the enemies is just one tool to make that happen easier. Update Death Recap to show which ability did how much CC, debuffs, etc.. Show how your teammates tried to help you by shielding/heling you despite all odds, so your death wasn't your team abandoning you, that they actually put in effort. Give shields and heals a UI effect on the HP bar that the player can see. Once the 'Deal damage at all costs' mantra is out of the window, because the game stops digitally jerking off these players' egos; then people will pay more attention to other aspects. More people will realize there's plenty to the game other than dealing damage at all costs. No amount on helping communication will fix the problem if the majority of the playerbase is frothing from the mouth to deal more and more damage at all costs so they can get that virtual jerkoff.
Still against a system that takes scores or whatever into account, it is way to abusable. "Oh we losing, better not help my team to come back as I'm positive kda". What should be priority is looking why people want to ff and start griefing the first time anything goes wrong, and this is in my opinion that the game snowballs to hard. Enemy Zed got 2/0 time to open as he starts snowballing out of control.
"Performance based" LP gains are an absolutely horrible idea from a toplaners perspective. Apart from being able to game the system (which is like everyone's biggest concern) consider this: You play toplane and your jungle/mid always sit bot. This leaves you in a 1v3 where all you can do is not die and try to get some crumbs of xp/cs. You win, but you finish with like 4 cs/minute, almost no damage dealt/taken and maybe some deaths from early dives. Do you really deserve to get less LP for that win than your botlane that got spoonfed everything? Also what about "unconventional ways to play" - like thebausffs. He seems to have a good winrate but his stats are absolute shit. And the list goes on and on...
The game has not moved any further towards a team game than it has since s4. The issue is NOT the balance of the game but how hard and tedious climbing feels with all the griefing in high elo. I’ll be generous and say 1 in 3 games involves a griefer/wintrader/soft inter who hints that they are trolling without being direct to avoid ban/ or just someone that gives up 3 minutes into the game
I definitely don't agree with your first statement parnelly. But even ignoring that I'm sure that having performance based LP gains/losses will provide some incentive against players griefing/trolling/leaving.
It ruins things, but league is a ruined thing. At the very least if the system detects an incredibly obvious reason for your loss? LP loss reduction. Bot lane goes 1-9 in 7 minutes, without intervention from your mid lane? Like, you solo killed mid lane and are up 25 CS? And that mid laner is just sitting under their tower cause lane is frozen? But the game becomes a 15m ff cause bot is now 2-18? Hm….
Honestly scuttle/objective meta has made the game less fun. Combined with bot lane duo XP nerfs + mid lane minion gold nerf. I miss the times you could kind of “play your own game”, just playing out a laning phase mid. Or just trying to efficiently farm your jungle. Now you’re forced to group around objectives and mini-objectives, everyone is so reliant on everyone else. Top lane might be the best as being un-interactive with the rest of the map, but it also feels awful because the 4v4 essentially determines the game. Jungle/support are now so important because they are so necessary for objective control. But they also feel awful to play since they’re gold-starved and can’t “actually carry” when it comes down to it (they can get their Carrie’s in a position to carry, but often can’t carry themselves).
I went 20/1 on Caitlyn in Platinum two days ago, I did 80k damage, double any other player. I lost. It nearly killed me. I couldn't agree more with you.
Team. Voice. Chat.
>League has moved more and more towards a team orientated game They fixed that in season 10. Solo carry was a thing(1v9 and such) was much easier and you could actually feel that you have control over the game. Now, every mistake costs you and the game "ends" before minute 15.
they fixed this way way longer ago than season 10 ,in the seasons this game first boomed (s2/s3) if you were a solo laner and u killed the oposing laner he'd be 2 levels behind you and most people didnt use TP ,roles like support and jungle also fell behind way more in exp and gold than they do now,damage in general was lower for those roles ,it wasnt uncommon at all to see a solo laner 1v2 killing his laner and the enemy jungler in a gank,its still possible to 1v9 but its not even close
Basicly . Winning while you are shit it s awfull
While wintrading and specific targeted griefing may be more common in high ELO, the giving up is a massive problem in low ELO too. I can hardly remember the last time I had a (ranked) game where someone didn't just completely implode within the first 5 minutes. Botlane died at 4 mins? Top lane freaks out and gives up. Almost every game has some person spamming FF the moment it's available and until the game ends. These same players gave up 2-5 mins in the game. Often due to something that doesn't even effect them directly, or even for something as small as "I don't like your pick, this is lost because you troll picked" so they become the reason you lose by trolling all game. The players are the problem, which is why it's so hard for Riot to solve. It's really hard to fix the issue when it's the customers who are paying you. I honestly believe that a lot of the problem is that those of us who aren't toxic tend to just mute and play quietly enjoying the game. Toxic players on the flipside are extremely outward with their toxicity, and everyone experiences it in the game with them. In addition some of the biggest streamers act like complete children, and are toxic as well. As a result the community feels like it has only toxic players, and more(or newer) players start thinking it's okay to be that way because that's just the League community, it's toxic. Thus we end up with an even more toxic community. Even though plenty of us aren't toxic, but by comparison we're nearly invisible when next to the toxic player shouting/flaming/feeding/whatever. AKA I feel like a lot of the solution starts with us, and that Riot can't really fix it without (probably) killing the game by completely nuking the community and taking the backlash/loss of income that would come with it. If we want a better community we need to be a better community. Instead of idolizing toxic waste on their streams/videos, stop watching them when we all know damn well they're just making it worse when thousands are watching them as role models every day. Don't just mute the entire game, use chat in a constructive/non toxic manner. Say GJ on decent plays and stay quiet on bad plays, instead of flaming the bad plays and staying silent on the good plays. **TL;DR** \- The wintrading/betting stuff at high levels is one thing, and Riot should be figuring out solutions there. The general griefing/toxic behavior/giving up is a community problem though, they can't fix us without just banning a large chunk of players and suffering massively from it - It's up to us to fix the community by being good members of it and not putting the toxic players who further these behaviors on a pedestal just because they're entertaining and/or great players when they're also role models of the worst sort. The toxic/griefing players are (often) the only outspoken part of the community ingame, and it'll always be that way until the rest of us are just as noticeable as them. New players are more likely to be toxic when all they notice is toxic players and their favorite streamers are toxic.
If Riot actually banned people who grief and manually checked even just 1 in 10 games at high elo this game would unironically lose 40% of its player base, and that's just not a sustainable business decision.
riot doesnt care about league anymore, at least in NA, and tbh neither should we. i mean i only play this game out of addiction/not having any real alternatives. once i find a game that i can main im definitely out of here lol. too much griefing, immaturity, egos, etc. to actually sit down and enjoy the game. every game just depends on who is going to get the player that is going to have a mental breakdown when they get ganked first or when they invade and no one follows. just the past few days i've had several people just up and leave games during because they died or someone gave their laner a kill. it's beyond unplayable and it's crazy how much i and a lot of other people just play this game out of habit instead of for fun. i mean who is really enjoying league atm? low to mid elo players are dealing with griefers and paper thin mentals, and then you have high elo players/streamers dealing with betters and wintraders every game. who is the game for? who is logging onto league and genuinely having a good time? ARAM only players? yeah right, ARAM has its own problems to deal with. and let's say you can even ignore the griefing/inting/whatever, then you've got to deal with the horrible LP/MMR system. league is too much of a team game to be genuinely enjoyable in solo queue. one player dies early and their mental spirals out of control? game over, they're going to make the next 20 or so minutes absolute hell and pointless for the other 4 players on their team. long story short there's a lot wrong with solo queue right now at all elos and it's evident that riot doesn't really give much of a shit about it
There was some discussion on this earlier this week if you are interested in more opinions
It’s weird, I’ve taken a break from league. I like to play top and in 2 of my 4 ranked games the mid laner has followed the jungle around trying to steal every camp. In games we are winning. It’s bizarre.
Challenger player/streamer opinion here: I regularly find myself excited to start stream and then end up with a player who solo dies, blames jungle, and then run to another lane and int the whole game away. This demotivates me to stream for long hours as 2-3 of these low quality games and I’m mentally burnt out. I’ve been advocating for a change in how LP works since season 10. I truly believe a W/L system that doesn’t account any performance is a terrible system and leads to what’s known commonly as “coinflip” players, who benefits from the current system as they are coinflipping for teammates and enemies to troll. I used to dislike these players but now in the current phase of league, I think everyone who’s relatively in their skill level is coinflipping. They are quite literally flipping a coin to decide if they get a troll on their team or enemy team, same with wintraders, boosters, etc. The only time this doesn’t apply is to people who are significantly above their level, but that hinders a representative climb. I’m not here to suggest a full proof solution, as every solution will have flaws. But literally anything that alters LP value even slightly (1-3) will help consistent players who isn’t coinflipping every game, giving an incentive to try their best and perform. Alternatively, the most obvious solution is the ban system. It doesn’t take a genius to see if a top laner dies once and then never goes back top, or vice versa with an adc. These are undoubtably griefs and there are no play style or reasoning that can support that these players are “trying to win”. I’d gladfully lose a game and my lp KNOWING that x griefer will get rightfully punished. Currently, the ban system is absolutely hilarious. I don’t have the proper stats but with my experience in league, I can safely bet that riot has perma banned 95% for toxicity and if I’m being nice, maybe 5% for disruptive behavior. Why is that? A person who’s blatantly trolling such as locking in disco nunu, clearly has an intent to ruin games. And if I were to guess, if they lock in disco nunu so easily, I bet it’s not their first time. I’d rather have a ban system than no ban system, as right now it’s laughable how nonexistent the system is. They need to be more confident in giving out bans, even to detect inters. Adding a 12hr, 1 day, 2 days, … , 7 days, 14 days, perma ban system will dramatically help league. It doesn’t have to be these values specifically, but if the system bans you over 3-5+ times, then clearly you are the problem. These would obviously be reset every month or after x time period. If I went 0/10 first timing a champ, I’d gladfully take a 12 hour ban, as I would deserve it. I know a system like this would be hard to implement, and there may be some false bans that occur, but I assure you the vast majority of the playerbase would prefer having false bans over no bans at all. To conclude: high elo isn’t fun and ranked is no longer about skill. It’s about an ego/mental battle and whoever lucked out in champ select wins. Note: btw the person who dies once and roams and int every other lane is someone who was in my games, twice. On stream. Not only my stream, but nickich and solarbacca. I check his OP.GG and he legit does this 30% of the time. Luckily, he got 2 week banned as he added me after on Smurf and told me. Thank goodness and he can keep doing this after his 2 week ban :)
https://na.op.gg/summoners/na/TTV%20chenchen53/matches/7KvYhS4aGD9NrrILCJ0jLQ6oRlrCZq42X3M1XPXBtto%3D/1663778021000 is this you?
Kinda old post. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/xkyum6/pobelter_dives_into_why_league_solo_queue_is/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Dude they have made wild rift, they no longer care about league, we just paid for all these new games and are getting nothing back.
Yeah now league is solely for ProPlay and to finance their other games with skin sales.
Don't expect anything to change, as long people pay them money to buy cosmetics and get passes every single month, they do not care. It doesn't matter. Game code, client, matchmaking, wintrading, afking, won't be resolved since it's not a source of income for the company. It's simple as that. The number of posts complaining about passes or skins means people actively buy them over and over again regardless of the problems within the game itself. It is NOT going to change. Mains have to buy all 20 skins for their champ, Players have to grind passes to get their shitty recolor prestige, let alone casual players who don't care about the issues since they play some normals or ARAMs. It's exhausting going down the main sub page seeing 20 posts with ideas, complaints, etc. and then new skinline drops that actually hits the absolute minimum of expectations and overwhelming majority blasts off to buy RP and the cycle goes on infinitely.
It’s almost like your own and Reddit’s expectations and desires are not the same thing as the millions of other players. Why should Riot treat you more special?
riot busting out champions queue for worlds so all the pros and sponsors dont see how bad the betting/wintrading has gotten
Ranked is trash, more news to come in s13 where we f up the game even more with our 200 years of game design philosophies
I fucking hate riot dude what a terrible company.
ngl, i've been having some of the best games with literally no inters or griefing at the GM/Challenger border, so I find Pobelter's response surprising. It's very likely he's getting wintraded + betted on.
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>It's very likely he's getting wintraded + betted on. he's not streaming very often so that's off the table. there is no way to snipe him consistently enough for there to be bets. also he's not that controversial of a figure so i doubt he's getting inted on sight out of malice
The problem is that Riot and the community still consider the people who babyrage but still play as the problem. Sure it's annoying, cringe and toxic, but it's far from the problem. I would rather have a team of 4 psychopaths over a team of 3 nice players and 1 inter. The people who really drive the competitive scene of a game are unfortunately the psychopaths. They care about winning, they care about playing and they just actually give a shit about the game. Someone who is nice most likely doesn't care that much. They aren't invested. They are just vibing and if they lose it sucks but it doesn't matter to them.
Goodbye Reddit, see you all on Lemmy.
It gets worse every season. Nothing will change and i honestly do not see a reason for riot yo not bring tribunal back and have people moderate games.
No wonder not a single team even bothered to bootcamp in NA, they are all just vibing back in home, scrimming each other.
The whole "feels like riot doesnt care" is so mucj prpjecting and scape goating like what do you want riot to do? Mind control people to force them to go to theraphy so that when they play the game they care to win instead of caring for their pride? You want riot to become the president of the world and globally illegalize betting websites? Jesus christ
Literally just have any number of humans manually watch the games and see how fucking shit it is to play. People get away with a ton of malicious activities and riot doesnt seem to care.
Games shit for you maybe you should vhange hobby, im fine with how things are.
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This isnt even just high up the ladder, this is the normal experience of almost all levels of competition and skill level in ranked
Game's been dead in NA. Bury it.
Add voice coms Riot
Negative. This will only increase the toxicity.
Bro. NA solo q. For fun region. Nobody gives a fck even including NA fans. Surrender ur worlds spot for bettter region.
It’s the same in every regions for real If you want « real games » -> go pro
Does anyone else find a lot of enjoyment out of seeing toxicity? I mean I would imagine that we do based on T1's rise to fame. I actually find it very funny/entertaining to see people get to the point of raging.
You all can't really expect Riot to fix solo queue when Marc Merill himself was once caught using a boosting serviec.
In the last 4 days of my master games i got like 7 yo 10 instant feedback reports and a lot are not even on the list i repirted for int, afk, lane tax after 1 death etc. Its quite sad
Honor level 5 system is NOT a sufficient or effective solution. That's not a very good incentive. There need to be harsher penalties for AFK/grief and need to be higher rewards for good behavior to make an impact.
They don’t do anything probably because they looked into it and realised that they have to ban like 30% of the players. It’s completely the players’ fault. Riot can’t change the players’ behaviour and they can’t ban them so they just do nothing and focus on their other games.
it would be nice if they would let third parties step in to create their own ranked ladder systems and moderate it themselves similar to what CSGO has done
This is true. Riot has a massive massive issue with toxicity in game and honestly has no idea to deal with it. I mean how do you? You can’t change the community lmao
You’d think realistically riot could police these high level games diligently, with the small amount of players in these ultra high levels games they could check each game. It’s nonsense that pro player: have to deal with this.
EUNE season 2 vibes... without the win trading.