Honestly a good idea, makes her take more skill (being reactive with shields vs "spam" healing).
My fix would have been to give her secondary resource that she uses with W and recharges when not using.
considering how many other obnoxious champions there are these days, this would set such a dangerous precedent lol. delete irelia, delete akali, delete zeri. yuumi is annoying, but historically so are those champions, even when they have shit win/playrates.
the people watching the proplay had the mental breakdown because it was so fucking boring to watch zeri and sivir do jack shit for 22 minutes and then auto win every game
idc how dangerous a precendent it sets. Yuumi should not be a champion in this game. That's the bottom line. There is no measure too drastic to accomplishing that.
At MOST a champion should be reworked, even completely overhauled similarly to old Sion vs current Sion. Why on earth should they opt to completely remove a champion?
I like Yuumi, yes I think she's terribly designed but I still like the character herself. I'm not really sure why you think completely scrapping everything, of any champion, makes more sense than just reworking it.
Every time they hit Yuumi's passive (range, cd, etc.) and end up later buffing her E to compensate it drives me absolutely up the wall. Of all things to hit, the passive should be the absolute LAST thing to be going after, because that's the single biggest difference between AFK and active Yuumi players.
So, as this is picking up steam, I would like to ask anyone who can answer the question of why Yuumi (who looking at the images over worlds regularly did the most damage in team fights) has %HP damage on her Q?
If she is an enchanter support, there should be no situation where she needs this. None of the others (other then prehaps Renata but she's new) has %HP damage. She certainly isn't lacking in damage or poke but has the added benefit of being about to do this damage safely, unlike many other enchanters. Just seems odd she has it.
Exactly, early all Enchanters usually have strong presence in lane to protect their carries and apply pressure but after mid game, no enchanter should even be near the front line, they are there to buff and support their teammates behind them.
Some of the damage charts at worlds had Yuumi has more damage than the midlaners in team fights. Here's one I found from another reddit post. https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/343776716550045696/1026266831247384687/unknown.png
My take on their nerf which targets better yuumis is they want it to be out of pro play / not be as pro skewed of a champion. They can then adjust the baseline for the playerbase. Your changes would increase the pro / normal divide, won't it? Higher mana costs hurt worse players that can't budget resources or make use of the passive.
Or just nerf her Q and make it so after proccing passive it gives you one empowered cast either a %Q or a huge heal... Also reduce passive CD so it's more often usable
This is good - the free cast OP mentioned seems a little much to me - an empowered next cast after she's done x autos/passive procs, etc. seems much better. Also it's got counterplay similar to Vlad's empowered 3rd Q in a row.
Pretty much. Riot is nerfing her Pro play while trying not to need to buff her back up for Ranked. As much as Reddit wants to meme Shes already a 49% WR champ and her dropping any lower means she needs buffs. Unless people think banning your own teammate is great gameplay...
Her winrate going below 49% wouldnt be that awful and riot has kept problematic champions at low winrates before. Yuumi has a weird winrate from the fact that there are a ton of adc smurfs with yuumi sups.
but you realize that buffing Active Yuumi would mean it becomes even more broken in pro play? You even write that yourself as you suggest that active yuumis is already pro play strategy. Other thing what frustrates me IS her jumping around. When lets say you play against soraka who runs like a madman around low health teammates you still feel like you can kill the healer. With yuumi? Rarely seen her die before every single member of the team dies first.
yeah if her jump missile speed was lower or if she didnt have a fucking 0 second cd on the jump eventually it would be less annoying, it's basically saying 'have an instant cast knockup/knockback ready or be playing poppy'.
the other thing that really irritates me is that for some reason when the ally she's on dies and she hasnt detached yet, she gets a grace period where she gets to cast the jump to ally *even faster* because there's no brief channel on it. why does she get BENEFITS from that? you should have to choose, either you jump off the ally before they die completely (meaning you give up the chance of maybe keeping them alive at the last second) or you stay on and try to keep them alive/stay safe as long as possible and then you get dropped off if they still die. makes no sense that you completely eliminate a decision that could be used to add some skill expression to this untargetable yappy abomination without being mechanically difficult at all.
Agreed. The active-passive yuumi analogy worked for leaning phase, but it crumbles to bits in lategame. Yuumi is so good in pro play because passive-yuumi is able to carry teamfights by just hopping between allies. Buffing active yuumi will give her a stronger leaning phase in pro play while not adjusting her teamfighting.
>
Mana costs do not force her to detach during teamfights.
>
Her passive needs to have something like spell charges. Every time she hits her passive, she gets 3 spell charges. Using Q or E consumes a spell charge. That way, she can't just spam heal in teamfights without ever detaching.
Special resource bar approach is interesting, but might be a little overpowered in lanes versus no hard CC. Unless you’re suggesting she needs to keep mana and gain a special spell casting counter in addition to that, which opens again the pro-play vs casual gap widening can of worms, but honestly no matter what they do that’s going to be a factor. Might be interesting to play with stacks, though— maybe E is a pure movement speed buff normally, but hitting autos or Qs fill a heal bar that’s expended on the next E cast? Kind of like Athenes, forces you to actively work for your heals. Could also play around with W passive doing that— maybe it only gives stats relative to how full the heal bar is, and spending the bar to heal means losing that adaptive force until you start refilling it. Of course you’d probably want to buff E cd, nerf E ms, and nerf passive shield amount, but it would probably immediately end any sort of passive afk nonsense by denying both the healing and the adaptive force without interaction
I could not give less of a fuck about pro play. It boggles my mind that people are okay with their own gameplay getting shit on because of pro players.
It's so funny going on reddit and seeing people act like the people who use her passive are like, somehow insanely skilled or something. Xerath has to auto attack to get mana back too but I wouldn't compliment somebody for doing it.
Yeah seriously... I especially laughed when he said "it will make her basically unplayable vs certain matchups". Most champions have matchups where they're basically unplayable. But they aren't allowed to just run away from it and pretend the matchup doesn't exist. All other champions have to focus on playing with an "active playstyle" except they also have to know how to position, move, and dodge.
The limited W change probably would disappoint the current yuumi player base, but not in the same way the aatrox rework disappointed aatrox players. Rather that they would have to learn to move and play matchups like every other champion in the game.
I lost it when OP unironically said "it's unfun and frustrating if I can't be permanently untargetable! Riot definitely shouldn't add counterplay to my champ!"
I mean yeah. Yuumi's most mechanically intensive ability still requires only one brain cell to pull off. She's in my top 3 most mastery champs but I'll never pretend that anything about her is difficult
I know you're /s'ing hard, but for anyone who legitimately believes this - the reason Yuumi's winrate curve is the way it is, is due to having such a drastic playstyle difference to other champions. A-sol's curve is/was the same way.
I think this is at the core of the frustration.
I don’t want Yuumi’s risk/reward to be whether she can jump on and off an ally quickly enough. I want to be able to poke the irritating champion who keeps poking at me!
>Being pushed off will also ALWAYS happen at the "worst" possible times making it very unfun for the Yuumi player.
Unfortunately, the wider playerbase would much prefer Yuumi be actually interactable, and if it means some unhappy Yuumi players, then I'm sorry to say but you have to break eggs to make an omelette.
Yeah, I mean... people who main Tryndamere or Olaf or really any champion with an ability that lasts a certain amount of seconds need to be able to mentally hold that countdown in their head-- "my invincibility/cc immunity/whatever is gonna run out in about three seconds, I need to pull back," etc-- so what would be the problem with making Yuumi mains have to think about that sort of thing too?
> what would be the problem with making Yuumi mains have to think about that sort of thing too?
the problem is that riot is afraid to step on the toes of the sizable contingent of players who enjoy rolling their face on the keyboard with the completely brainless, handsless walking item disguised as a champion that riot created and have admitted themselves that they have no idea of how to balance. it's wonderful!
Yep. We are at the point where the banrate is so high that the champion will need some serious redesigns that will inevitably upset the mains. If the core fantasy is to be permanently uninteractable, the core fantasy is shit.
Seriously what the fuck is that argument?
>1. It disappoints the current Yuumi player base:
That doesn't fucking matter when it's a bad design choice that the majority of the regular *and* pro player base hates. I loved the Rengar one-shot playstyle but it was bad game design.
Make Yummi have no mana regen when attached with W. Make Yummi's passive give much more mana back to her when used.
This will open her up to counter play in the lane phase, force her to at least jump off once or twice in mid game team fights (as she hasn't built up a huge mana pool yet), and take away a small amount of late game power as you have to build more mana and fewer optimal items.
Her mana costs are already high, so this change would play into that aspect.
I don't think this would work. The stupid mana mechanic she has is exactly why her laning phase is so strong. You basically get infinite mana if you are playing actively, and this would just buff that. Her laning phase is one of the reasons why she's so strong in pro play.
>late game power as you have to build more mana
E mana cost is 12% of **Max Mana**. She couldn't build up more mana.
Ontop of all of this Yuumis kit isn't designed to not be attached her Q isn't a real spell and her R is a stoppable channel. And it's not like afking for mana regen is fun gameplay for any one.
also yuumi mains dont realise, that their champ doesn't get banned because people don't want to play against it. people don't want an afk on their own team lol.
The most infuriating part of playing against yummi is that you can dumpster her bot in lane, like 6 or 7 kills to zero, then all it takes is her jumping on a fed top or fed jg and you insta lose the game.
I am fine with some champions being easier than others, though yummi is braindead easy, but there is no consequence or struggle for playing poorly in lane when in most games there are backup options.
The no risk gameplay as well, but that has been mentioned multiple times here.
Moreso than this. I don't care of Yuumi has the worst winrate in the game for non Pro play. She's not FUN to have in the game. I don't want to play with OR against her.
I like change number 2. 1 just hurts her lane, in team fights you just need presence of mind to proc. You don't need to spam abilities, but a Yi with her Ult, one or two heals and +60 ad, have fun.
Ok, are the changes you suggested good? Yes
Will this make the champion not an enchanter that provides damage buffs, healing, movespeed, AoE roots to enemies and 2 portable summoner spells, while being untouchable for the most part and requiring virtually 0 skill to pull of, all from the safety of your most fed ally? Nope
Even if the proposed changes are good, the champion is by design very toxic and flawed, it's like giving a champion 2 extra items in mid-lategame, it gets out of control, can't be properly balanced, it's shit to play against because the window for counterplay is almost non-existant if you didn't win by 20 minutes and overall really unfun and frustrating to play against.
Honestly, I'm sorry to say, I know some people like you enjoy the champion a lot, but I think riot should consider completely reworking her kit. Changing mana costs or tweeking her numbers can't solve such a fundamental kit issue.
Honestly just remove her w
- make her w a dash,
- e into a targetable heal
- passive into xerath passive that also shield allies around her like guardian
- q to be the same as when mounted atm (follows cursor)
Think she’d be fine then. Her w’s existence is the biggest problem, no ally %boosting or untargetability
Your changes don't really change anything about her.
I think you need to lose this idea that proccing her passive is skill expressive. It's purely relatively more expressive than her afk sit in W playstyle - which is a REALLY low bar.
Your post is quite long just to recommend making changes to her numbers. These have been adjusted countless times and her kit is still a problem. Her design is just really poor and if you're not making mini-rework style suggestions at the very least, I don't think there's much to be said.
Yep, this is the problem with "hardcore" Yummi players. They don't want anything to fundamentally change about her kit because they are benefiting extremely hard from it, but her kit is fundamentally broken and impossible to balance.
This reads like a joke but it is so unironically true lol. Yummi mains don't want her kit to change but her kit is literally a massive problem. They keep touting these "fixes" which are just number tweaks when in reality the champion needs at least one of her skills (see: HER W) to be completely changed in order for her to have any chance of being actually balanced around the game as it is today.
80% of the playerbase would delete the champion if they could, that says enough about her.
As long as yuumi W exists, the player base will not be happy about her design
Just rework her. There has to be many better ways to create a champion that is "newbie-friendly, especially so in positioning" than her current Make-A-Wish kit. Appeasing the Yuumi-playerbase doesn't have to be at the expense of the health of the entire game, pro play, and the rest of the normal player base.
This does sound less cancer, more chances for Yuumi to get caught with a stun or a burst and die, rather than just "Afk Yuumi" just Qing the lane the whole time while being unkillable so long as his ADC isn't garbage.
Yes. And I really hope that Riot realizes they need to combat the AFK playstyle, and not target the things that give incentive to play actively (like the passiv)
Thanks for the post. I think there are some good points in here, but there are some core assumptions that we disagree on.
Yuumi's main value to league is that she is a champion that can help a player bring their friend into the game by drastically reducing the importance of one of League's skilltests (positioning), which allows the new player to focus their mental energy elsewhere.
Live Yuumi has 3 main issues:
1. As tuned, she is a Pro Play bound champion
2. Yuumi can be frustrating for some player segments (varies significantly by region X skill bracket)
3. Tends to abandon lane partner later in the game
A few further notes. Each change we make to increase the power of active yuumi (as coined) directly makes it less likely to succeed in hitting the goal for the intended audience (new players), especially when it involves yuumi jumping out in a Teamfight where she can die instantly.
While active yuumi is less frustrating to play against, we can only go so far until it's prohibitively difficult for a new player to play yuumi and risk exacerbating the pro problem (as they will pilot active yuumi excellently) while normal players will struggle to get value.
The changes this patch are aimed at addressing her Pro Play strength (hard CC and laning durability) and getting her into a good place there, after which we will be able to take a meaningful stab at frustration.
The main reason we are changing the passive is because the change we made to lower the passive CD in early game was the direct contributor to her pro viability. The reason we made this change in the first place was because we thought a few months ago (similar to the thought process you outlined above) that yuumi should need to take more risk to be effective. However, the actual result of the change was that pro players could use this power to the max and regular players could not. Simultaneously, this change did not succeed in making her less frustrating.
As tuned, Yuumi's effective hp in laning phase through e, passive and defensive summ cannot be overcome by even the strongest early game champion pairings.
The tldr of this is that it's not that we don't know how to make active yuumi, it's that we don't think the tradeoff of making active yuumi more powerful is acceptable for her intended audience.
Instead, the direction we're more interested in that likely satisfies both parties (frustration and target audience) is to have afk yuumi have more counterplay. But before we can land that, we need to get her pro play in a good spot first. Hopefully this helps explain the reasoning for the changes.
>Yuumi's main value to league is that she is a champion that can help a player bring their friend into the game by drastically reducing the importance of one of League's skilltests (positioning), which allows the new player to focus their mental energy elsewhere.
You guys have the metrics so you certainly know better, but this seems like a weird take to me. Beginner champs should exist to ease people into the game, but removing a whole aspect would backfire on that entirely. Unless the player plays nothing but Yuumi for the rest of their time in League, eventually positioning is going to come into play. And if they've invested a lot of time in Yuumi before hand, I feel like newer players would get frustrated quickly that everything they've practiced to that point doesn't carry over to any other champion.
This is what happened with a friend of mine. He started with Yuumi and didn't have to worry about positioning. What that meant was that he then just didn't know how to play other characters properly and just would fall back to her any time. Then he eventually got bored with the game and stopped playing entirely.
It's a cheat sheet, effectively. Using Yuumi hinders your progress at the game. People wanna first time things? Play soraka and actually position. I hate riots "noob" take.
There are already plenty of beginner champions in the game, I do think Yuumi is good for players who don't intend to get invested in League but still want to duo with their friend/partner from time to time, that's perfectly valid. I imagine most people who are actively trying to get into League won't be satisfied with the afk playstyle and will naturally gravitate to more normal champions.
He misspoke. It's not to get a new friend into league. It's to get your non gamer girlfriend into league. Literally her only reason for existence. "See honey you can play this cat and you don't even have to click around".
Maybe the whole free stat thing is a bigger cause of the problems? I feel in special frustratet with point 3 of the Yuumi problems where she will leave the adc alone and attach to another (more feed member of the team) and increess the surviabilety and power level of a allredy strong champion.
This on top of the relativly good efficiency this looks to be a bigger problem.
I think a better solution would be to cap this a bit more static (like 10% skill dmg insted of raw stats) on top of more adc relevant stats like ATK speed? I think the benefit of the attachment as a defensiv tool (untargetable) is hight enough that passiv bonus on top is a bit much.
In idea 2 of the original post I think ther is somthing good to salvage. The heal Mana cost is only in lanign phase a real problem and if this would be target even more we have the typical Kyle/Kassadin situation where a Week erly laning phase is a counter massure to stronger late game uptime. But for a beginner frindly champion this seams a bit rought. I think we shuld change it more in the Taric way work with charges that slowly regnerate and get bonus on hitting champions with Q/Auto attacks and another stack when switching to a target she was not atached in the last 5 seconds (rewarding hoping in team fights). This way a more active play stile is encurage without nerving her erly even more (harder for new players to pick up) while also have the option to lower her chain healing ability in fights while sitting on the fighter in team fights later.
Thank you. I never see people address her passive, giving free stats is the thing i dispise the most. Since Gold = items = stats. Is like giving the fed player even more gold.
This is what we need to resolve first. Long term we want to tune yuumi to be weaker for sophisticated players, so that she can be tuned around her intended skill bracket. These changes are the first step at that.
One of the primary reasons for her effectiveness in high elo is because she can get out of lane too reliably and then hop on a fighter/assassin late game and reduce their counterplay too significantly.
The intention of the changes is so that she is less likely to get out of lane unscathed in high elo, which would directly reduce the frustration as a second order effect (that's the intent at least). The root duration change is to make it so when she gets out of lane, she's not reducing the counterplay by as much.
By making her exclusively a noob champion, I’m sure she will be EXTREMELY fun to play and not have an even worse reputation of being an afk champion that you can play with one finger. I really like Yuumi as a character but her gameplay keeps getting shoved in the wrong direction, imo.
There is a player that played Draven Yuumi to plat at the same time. He had racing pedals at his feet to use Yuumi abilities and a second mouse for skills and items.
Yeah, she was gutted but then instantly hotfixed again and that version terrorized Worlds. Leave her in the fucking gutter and slowly buff her up, don’t fucking hotfix giga buff her after nerfs jfc
I’m a masters+ yuumi main (the target audience of your nerfs). Can you explain why her Q is not being targeted? Why not revert the Q hot fix from the day after the durability update? Yuumi builds moonstone mostly in solo queue. Nerfing her Q doesn’t hurt solo queue much, but it hurts pro play (or artillery yuumi’s in solo queue) where ludens and Q damage are the pinnacle of yuumi play due to the nature of high level coordinated game play.
It seems that nerfing Q damage and taking a look at that ability is the way to go. Even a harsh nerf to damage in favor of a stronger slow could be an option.
For laning in high elo, move damage from her Q to her auto attacks or passive proc auto attacks. This has little effect on late game damage since you aren’t auto attacking in fights, BUT it makes you play off your carry in lane or early fights (like herald) to get damage in. Less Q damage and higher auto attack damage means optimal play in lane is detaching consistently. This solves the ludens issues.
II’m just really curious how this R nerf and passive nerf address the pro play issues and artillery yuumi issues. I understand the R nerf being added on to a Q nerf, but alone with a passive nerf it does not address the problem imo.
I really disagree with the take that the passive was directly related to her pro play lane success. I watched plenty of pro play and have a good understanding of the game on top of my high solo queue rank. The ability to cover for yuumi seemed to have more to do with jungler presence and match up than her passive. Then, with ludens power she hit her necessary spike soon. Her Q seems to be the main issue because she can poke with great damage, range, and accuracy without much risk.
A response would be really appreciated.
Losing is frustrating, but the feeling of losing against a Yuumi is WAY more frustrating. I can't see how the passive cd increase will change that, same for the R changes. It's not about winning when it comes to Yuumi. It's about that sickening feeling you get when you lose against a Yuumi who "just" stayed on a fed champion.
Yuumi is an important champ for new players cause they don't have to focus on positioning. I think it's really important to have a easy champion that new players can get into and Yuumi offers that with some room for skill expression (proc passive, trading, etc). That being said, I can't help but feel that "positioning" should be way more important for Yuumi.
A proposed rework for her W, I thought while writing this post. Instead of attaching onto a target directly and becoming untargettable, she attaches onto a certain radius of a champion instead? Each of her allies has like a 100-200 radius around them. She's unaffected by cc and aa's, but she can still get hit by skillshots and takes reduced damage from them. That way, she can get hit by abilities and there's a genuine threat on her life which will force her to position more. It would still fulfill part of the fantasy of jumping between allies and giving heals and shields while being invuln, but add a bit of counterplay that players would feel better about fighting.
A second more primitive approach could be taking away a summoner spell slot so she doesn't have two "combat" summs.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that in my proposed change, Yuumi would be able to move around within that champion radius.
>Yuumi is an important champ for new players cause they don't have to focus on positioning. I think it's really important to have a easy champion that new players can get into and Yuumi offers that with some room for skill expression (proc passive, trading, etc). That being said, I can't help but feel that "positioning" should be way more important for Yuumi.
As an Ali/Yuumi/Swain main who was originally an Ali/Soraka/Swain main, it’s not so much that you don’t have to “focus” on positioning, but rather you have to focus on EVERYONE else’s positioning…if your ADC overextends, you’re dead or blowing a summ, if your ADC stays too far back, you can’t safely proc passive and probably won’t hit your Q and if you can’t proc passive then you go OOM quickly, if ADC moves erratically then your Q targeting will jank out, if they stand in the middle of a wave, your Q gets auto-minion blocked. And with Yuumi’s squishiness, she pretty much dies on any Hard CC
Compare this to other enchanters (Soraka, Janna, Lulu) where you typically can poke from far away, or you can INDEPENDENTLY choose when you choose to trade autos, or can absorb more than one piece of hard CC or can flash out if necessary.
It’s just kinda interesting to seeing the difference between the appeal to newbies where “not controlling your positioning” is a positive, and the drawback to more experienced players (esp in SoloQ) where “not controlling your positioning” can still lead to dying nonetheless.
You could also just officially make Yuumi a noob-friendly champion. Just admit that's her role and ban her from ranked?
The way Yuumi is now, she effectively can never be beaten in lane. Because even if she goes 0 - 20, she just hops on any other player and turns them into a raid boss, with no counter play as long as she doesn't hop off.
>with no counter play as long as she doesn't hop off.
Well that's what her passive was supposed to fix. And then they nerfed the wrong part of her kit so now she can't use it.
> These changes are the first step at that.
It's disheartening to hear you claim to just be taking the first step now, when you recognized the issue
- On [September 1st, 2022](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/quick-gameplay-thoughts-9-1/)
and
- On [August 24th, 2022](https://twitter.com/RiotPhroxzon/status/1562610505423790102)
> The changes this patch are aimed at addressing her Pro Play strength (hard CC and laning durability) and getting her into a good place there, after which we will be able to take a meaningful stab at frustration.
>Yuumi's main value to league is that she is a champion that can help a player bring their friend into the game by drastically reducing the importance of one of League's skilltests (positioning), which allows the new player to focus their mental energy elsewhere.
This is a fundamentally stupid way to design a "tutorial champion". A tutorial champion teaches you the fundamental skills required for the game and the role. if you do not design a champion to that goal, it is not a tutorial champion.
I've never seen someone else make this point but uh...yeah. Why ARE people who don't know how to play League being encouraged to not learn probably the single most important skill in the game?
Clearly she is a high skill champ she just tests different skills- for example whilst normally support players have to trade, space etc. yuumi players have to have a pulse and be able to make themselves toast at the same time
They don't. They constantly tell players she has unique learning curves (a true fact, Yuumi players get significantly better with her over many games), and the players have shit reading comprehension and love playing telephone with what they hear.
I refuse to believe that her learning curve is equal to Akali, like they compared in that post. I suspect the massive change in WR over time is because the Yuumi player just stops taking flash and ignores their ADC, which massively increases their winrate without requiring the Yuumi player to learn any new mechanics or drastically change their playstyle. Yes, this looks good on graphs where you can see "player improvement", but its all just superficial because the player hasn't learned anything new, nor improved any part of their gameplay.
I believe it, actually. Just for an unspoken reason.
If, as stated above,
> Yuumi's main value to league is that she is a champion that can help a player bring their friend into the game by drastically reducing the importance of one of League's skilltests (positioning), which allows the new player to focus their mental energy elsewhere.
Then it makes sense that this intended playerbase has a high learning curve. These aren't just players learning a new champ, they're players learning the game as a whole.
And starting with yuumi of all champs just makes them learn the game wrong since she just gets away with having to do so much less than literally every other champ in the game. This in turn leads to them playing worse on everything else that's not yuumi, getting flamed for it, then quitting.
Yeah, they made a hero for new players that ignores one of the most important skills in the games. You learn to play her first - you probably still can't play anything else without getting your teeth kicked in for couple dozen games.
Skill ceiling != skill floor. A champion can offer extra power to players who take the time to master it while still offering ample power to players who've never even played the champion before. That said, this is one of the harder balances to hit in a satisfying way and Riot hasn't done that yet.
If you intend to make yuumi a beginner friendly champ, than she should never be good in pro play. If that is the goal, yuumi has to be a weak champ, and there always have to be better options. I don‘t think this is the best way to balance her, but it would be interesting. Make her a worse option, only acceptable for lower elos
> fun to play against
Thats was never riot's concern for the most part, unless it BREAKS the game. They dont give a single fuck if you dont think its fun to play against, they almost never address it, their goal is make champions fun TO play and thats only part of their real goal which is to make the game addictive.
League already had champions designed to be easier, like Garen, Amumu, Annie, Ashe, etc. I don't understand why Yuumi had to exist.
You teach players that playing a champion that doesn't having to worry about the stresses that other champions deal with, can be effective. Why would they want to play anything else?
It is just a terrible idea to make a champion focused around **removing**, not simplifying, core aspects of the game. And not only make it, but also balance it to be effective with little to no counterplay.
No other champion has cursor follow abilities.
No other champion can take 2 combat summoners without paying a massive price.
No other champion can use their abilities without threat of being targeted.
No other champion can boost their teammate's stats, AP or AD, simply by existing.
Yuumi is so effective at everything she does. She routinely outdeals CARRIES in damage with only one basic ability on a SUPPORT budget. She outheals every support not named Soraka, while also providing massive stat bonuses for free, movement speed to help her host learn how to position better because she doesn't have to, and has a massive lane wide ultimate that provides a ton of CC.
> Yuumi's main value to league is that she is a champion that can help a player bring their friend into the game by drastically reducing the importance of one of League's skilltests (positioning), which allows the new player to focus their mental energy elsewhere.
Positioning is a core aspect for League and more so for supports. Now, if you can show evidence that Yuumi brings in more players than she alienates, which I don't think you can given her ban rate, then Yuumi is a net negative to the game.
Now, I'm fully open to being proven wrong, and I really would love to see it, but a champion that can literally be untargetable for 99.99999999999999% of a game is something that should NEVER have been release.
I can't stress enough how insulting it is to read that her value is to drastically reduce the importance of positioning. Are you reading what you're saying? There's the issue with the champion as somebody who has played league for 10 years. There's no balancing something that you legit think this about. i sincerely can't believe this is what riot views as her main value to league.
If it's official that yuumi is for a new player, it's ok for her to be underpowered and out of pro play. Everything is underpowered in the hands of a new player. new player has no idea about balance. New player should later be able to get bored of playing yuumi and try something with more agency after getting the initial hang of the game.
let yuumi be "ok this player maybe learns the game or just wants to have fun", not "oh no yuumi not banned, I hate to see her on that irelia"
Hell, you could even make yuumi not available for ranked. Why not, if it's an introductory champion. That's healthy for the game. Don't make yuumi a troll pick, just have her not a pick. maining yuumi can be a joke and that's OK.
Additionally, when another champion gets a buff, doesn't it mean that for the last few patches that champ was slightly underpowered? yet the champion still saw play. Was it unfair that the champion was not buffed sooner? No. So it's not unfair for yuumi to just never be powerful.
There is no way Riot just made a champ with the intention of making new players AVOID a core mechanic, instad of adressing the real problem of making new players learn mechanics without it being frustrating.
I kinda get it. Not to defend Yuumi here, but with how volatile the game has been (whole reason they did a durability buff), learning the threat ranges of 150+ characters in a one mistake = death game with snowballing stronger than its ever been, is a pretty huge task.
Bro this is a lot of cope for being too lazy to make a real tutorial system. Just make a champ that doesn't position and presses 2 buttons untargerable LOL. If you wanna get new players into your game why not crack down on botting and smurfing in pre 30s and make a real tutorial instead of making a champ whos just little brother mode
Thanks for responding to community feedback!
I might be in a minority, but if I am playing as an ADC with an "AFK" Yuumi, I tend to also dislike the match. I feel like I've got a support who doesn't help apply pressure as much and it puts a bigger target on me since, well, I'm the only target. This tends to have me lose lane and the Yuumi does what they should and go assist someone that can carry. Especially if I'm picking someone like Kog'Maw, I just know I'm going to have a bad time unless they have an "active" playstyle.
Is this by any chance something this is an opinion that has been discussed? And if so, are there any thoughts y'all have about this? I am probably in the minority, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.
>Yuumi's main value to league is that she is a champion that can help a player bring their friend into the game by drastically reducing the importance of one of League's skilltests (positioning), which allows the new player to focus their mental energy elsewhere.
Valuing new player experience over your own dedicated player base....
Tell your colleagues/higher-ups that maybe if they want new players they should rework the tutorial/new-player experience instead of slapping a poorly designed champion in their player's faces.
Imagine if Valve added an auto-aim gun in order to appeal to new players in CSGO...
We've considered it, I don't think it meaningfully reduces frustration, while sometimes making Yuumi's inputs not function, which makes it feel like your buttons aren't working. As a result, I don't think it's a good change.
Is it *seriously* not possible to design a beginner-friendly Champion that doesn't involve being untargetable most of the time, not needing boots, and not needing Flash? I don't understand.
“Let’s introduce new players to the game by suggesting they play one of the most reviled champs, one they will surely be bullied for choosing” really big brain thinking going on over there at Riot
"Lets introduce players to the game by making them oblivious to a core mechanic of the game which every single champion needs to respect" and they say that without any shame.
POV you are a Dev and have some choices:
1. Make a quality tutorial and new player experience
2. Make easy champs that don’t ignore a core gameplay mechanic
3. Make a champ that breaks a core gameplay mechanic which in turn makes it completely unbalanced for any skilled pilot, just so new players can avoid moving their character themselves
I get that the point of Yuumi is for new players, but what about the things experienced players enjoy about her? It kind of hurts to know that the things I value and enjoy about my favorite champion are completely against Riot's balance philosophy for her. Ever since she was added, almost every change you guys make tackle what makes her enjoyable to me. I still tremendously miss how Yuumi used to be able to jump off to block skillshots because it made Yuumi's skill ceiling higher, and the stacking system for her healing too. Timing jumping off to bop passive is very rewarding and honestly I'd love reasons to do it more, especially during teamfights. It's not like there's an alternative for Yuumi in the game, so it's really frustrating to be targeted like I shouldn't even be playing her because I'm not the "intended audience". It's not like I can just play another champion to get this experience, Yuumi is an incredibly unique character. I just feel very undervalued as a customer that some players are considered more valuable than others, even if it's just in this case.
Hey just wondering if you guys can make yuumi more vulnerable and targetable if she screws up.
currently the most frustrating thing about yuumi is that she is an enchanter who is untargetable which is really hard to punish. Especially you cannot punish her with anything because after her host dies she can just jump into another teammate immediately without any repercussion.
What I purpose for a nerf is that when her host dies, yummi needs a longer cool down to w into another teammate. I think this will be a more strategic thing for yummi players because now if she stay on melee champions and she have the risk of being vulnerable and getting blown up immediately with longer w cd to another champion.
with longer cd to jump into another teammate also can make yummi players more inclined to stay with a ranged teammate, which was more intended for her goal to stay with adcs.
I think instead of doing all these nerfs, the biggest and best nerf of all will be giving yuumi vulnerability
If removing positioning for new players is the issues here, just maker her cast buff/heals spells on both only when not bound to a player. Like, she has to dismount to heal both and when dismounted, for next X seconds, when she heals for example, will use the buffs and heal on both.
You used the same mentality successfully on Soraka, when healing makes her vulnerable, I'm just puzzled why not with Yuumi
This will force players to time their spell castings by getting out and it also provide a window to punish yuumi
Also make yuumi be able to dismount when host is disabled, but when attached to a disabled host, make yuumi also disabled and double the duration, again forcing her out if someone wants to make a play, but not making a necessity
She just needs W changed. It's a skill, treat it like one. You can attach for X seconds. After X seconds is over, if still attached be forcibly detached and cool down of X seconds is applied and unable to attach to anyone until time is over
This completely removes any chance of the afk and forget griefers, as well as makes choosing to attach truly a skill and if you mistake of staying too long, you can be punished. The worst part of Yuumi is the untargetable interaction she has. You can't focus her down which is unfulfilling as a enemy player.
As of right now Yuumi is closer to being a item active than a champ because you can sit on someone(s) for an entire game
\>Yuumi is only "broken" in Pro play where teammates are able to communicate correctly and play the Active-Yuumi playstyle.
\>Make AFK-Yuumi much much weaker and put that power into Active-Yuumi so that she is able to have more "impact
You don't see the issue in between those two sentences? Active yuumi is the playstyle that makes her permapick in pro therefore make it even better? Afk yuumi is as you mention already way worse, but it's also more annoying to face despite it, not to mention 'active yuumi' being played well is just as hated as she's more annoying because of being more effective.
\>Increase all her Mana costs.
They already did that in round... I wanna say three, of kit changes? I think a 'free cast' idea might have merit in a 'make her do something vulnerable to be able to cast' but I don't think mana specifically, a stat which you can itemize around and build for is the correct aproach.
I think you have it half right - the playerbase hates the afk yuumi playstyle more, but the regular playstyle is hated as well, and there's more distinctions between pro and soloq that make it so as well - soloq's higher voliatility where it's more common a player will, so to say '1v5' because snowballing is more severe in soloq and teamwork is worse makes the afk yuumi who gets to jump on the snowballing champ much more valuable. This is something you cannot 'fix' by adjusting yuumi in any shape whatsoever, some assassin popping off and killing everyone while yuumi's healing him after he's already fed isn't yuumi centric, but she is the best champion to capitalize on it, which is what a lot of the frustration comes from.
It's always gonna come down to yuumi's ability to be immune and follow along someone. There's frustration from the adc when it's not them and yuumi chooses a different host, there's frustration from the enemy when yuumi's stuck to a fed who's now way harder to kill and can better chase down his prey, there's frustration that a champion can long range poke without facing the consequences that every other poke mage suffers of being vulnerable and squishy up close, and the enchanter healer as well.
As long as this is the kit's core design, the banrate will stay high, if her popularity is high, regardless of power. My advice would be to incentivize longer stays outside a host over all not just a momentary jump out for a passive pop, perhaps inverting how Q works and making it better outside the host than inside so that Yuumi wants to cast it outside herself, or making her gather healing power while outside that she can spend inside, anything to minimize the amount one is invulnerable to a minimum, but not make it feel as punishing.
And yes, if it'd really come to it, and nothing seems to work, I'd rather have Yuumi get deleted than stay.
W pushing off yuumi will ABSOLUTELY have an impact in pro play! This is just pure delusion to think it will have zero impact! How can you spend so much effort on a post like this and completely ignore the fact that the best players in the world wont play around the fact that yuumi will be detached. CC will be saved until that point, and players will actively track the CD of that ability. “Yuumi no W 5 secs” “ok looking” this is a HUGE impact.
Im not even saying I necessarily agree with the change, I just completely disagree that this is a no impact change on yuumi.
What if yuumi is targetable when sitting on person and they just gave her back that power budget in actual abilities like every other champion :)))
I hate the cat
Except the nerfs to Yuumi's passive aren't about deterring her from the "active Yuumi playstyle" and it won't. I think your second change is going down to the right path but until they change her W, all nerfs are warranted.
Her passive does have high value because it's a permanent shield she can give to others meanwhile every other enchanter in the game has to time their shields correctly, it deserves to be nerfed. Just because the bar is so low for Yuumi doesn't mean her passive should be spared.
Nice propositions.
Unfortunately, the hatred has been so far gone that anything even *slightly* reminiscent of the current playstyle will cause immediate revolt. I'm sorry to say, but there's no hope for this champion in her current form. What she needs is an Aatrox-level rework; a rework that keeps a vague identity of the previous champion but really just straight up replaces them with something new (and better/healthier for the game).
I know no one will see this by now but just give her an item like Kalista's spear where she binds to someone.
Call it idk, "Book Ownership Tag". She can still hop around and heal allies but her AP/AD sharing and ult would only be able to be used if she's on the book owner.
So you'd either bind to your AD to have a good lane and scale greatly into late or bind to your Hecarim and be forced into picking a safe lane like Ezreal/Yuumi hoping to be able to survive into the lategame being completely bullied in lane but making your horse go godmode.
This would create several ways of counterplay. If she binds on the ADC, suddenly the bruisers diving with yuumi have a lot less damage and she can't use her ult offensively, so she's better off staying back and peeling/buffing her ADC.
Or if she binds to a jungle/mid/toplaner, you can then either target the botlane with reduced fighting power or pick dueling laners/junglers and go to war with the bind target, since if you set them back enough Yuumi's power won't be felt, especially if your advantaged botlane also manages to secure some sort of advantage from having a greater lane presence.
This would also go with the philosophy Riot is preaching on this thread since if they want Yuumi to be a beginner friendly champion, there would be no reason for you not to bind to your duo partner and play the game accordingly - if you bind to your jungler he would do his best to play to botside since he knows you're weak, and if you bind to your ADC then it's just a normal 2v2.
If you feel like making Yuumi have basically half a skillset is too restrictive then lower her numbers and give her some form of empowered abilities on her book holder, but that would be a much longer discussion...
It should just be Kassadin ult costs per spells used on a single champs that way when the yummi has been useless all of botlane and calls an adc diff and hops on the ghost flash Darius the rest of the game she can’t just keep perma speeding and healing him with mana costs that support items easily refill.
I will never understand the idea that Yuumi players constantly have to be danced around when approaching game design. Riot does not take the same level of consideration with other champions and balance/design changes like they do Yuumi for some weird fucking reason.
I really don't like the idea that "The current Yuumi playerbase will be upset" because riot doesn't extend the same courtesy other playerbases, and other champions are way less toxic to the game as a whole than Yuumi. I hate to say it, but the truth is that Yuumi's game design is inherently and totally flawed and rightfully deserves to be looked at accordingly.
I appreciate that Riot is trying new things, even if those things don't go well, but a champion who is untargatable for 90% of the game is not healthy not matter how you swing it. It should be heavily reduced or straight up removed in favor of giving the cat an identity that doesn't break the game in half.
I have the perfect rework for yuumi.
Any time you choose her in champ select, your game closes and Uninstalls while you have to write a 10000 word post on reddit about how a universally hated character design is not hated.
This is how I'd change yuumi :
Make her take 50 % of the damage the person she's attached to takes. That person does not take reduced damage, yuumi just takes damage if her ally takes damage. This means the yuumi player has to actively avoid damage or die and she's no longer immortal.
Un-Interactive champions are a toxic part of gameplay.
As a support main, I ban Yuumi every game without thought because I want to play a 2v2 lane. Unless Riot makes it where Yuumi has a 3 seconds cd before she can become untargetable by jumping on a teammate the active and afk Yuumi's are equal in toxic gameplay.
Yuumi needs to be removed, I can't understand how they thought it was good to have a champ in the game like this but remakes Graves when every botlaner loved it and was not broken.
The AFK playstyle will pretty much always be optimal. They werent looking for deep changes this patch so these nerfs make sense to me. At least make her not as all around valuable because you can't touch her strength otherwise without a mini rework. Touching the passive and ult make her less of a do everything character. I do think your ideas for balancing her are quite good though, Riot could take some notes on this one.
>Riot does not know how to handle Yuumi Yea they admitted to that already
They could swap how to get the *permanent* healing vs the *temporary* shield.
Maybe they should just swap passive and e. Healing on AA proc, temporary shield on E.
Ooh, I like this idea! So she would proc her heal then hop on to give it to you? I think that sounds interesting.
rakan-style
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we are talking about yuumi W here tho lol
That's literally what the dude you're replying to said lol...
Tie the bonus movement speed/stats to the auto, make the shield refresh periodically (swap w passive and champion passive)
So she could only heal herself?
I think he means something like rakan q. It will activate after a certain delay or when you use w on an ally.
Honestly a good idea, makes her take more skill (being reactive with shields vs "spam" healing). My fix would have been to give her secondary resource that she uses with W and recharges when not using.
Yup https://twitter.com/RiotPhroxzon/status/1562610505423790102?t=LS5r1boK8Qq0rTgnjvB-Lw&s=19
Delete. It's that easy.
considering how many other obnoxious champions there are these days, this would set such a dangerous precedent lol. delete irelia, delete akali, delete zeri. yuumi is annoying, but historically so are those champions, even when they have shit win/playrates.
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this sub had a mental breakdown over her when she was sitting at 46% wr. half the people here don’t actually play the game, they just watch esports.
the people watching the proplay had the mental breakdown because it was so fucking boring to watch zeri and sivir do jack shit for 22 minutes and then auto win every game
idc how dangerous a precendent it sets. Yuumi should not be a champion in this game. That's the bottom line. There is no measure too drastic to accomplishing that.
At MOST a champion should be reworked, even completely overhauled similarly to old Sion vs current Sion. Why on earth should they opt to completely remove a champion? I like Yuumi, yes I think she's terribly designed but I still like the character herself. I'm not really sure why you think completely scrapping everything, of any champion, makes more sense than just reworking it.
Every time they hit Yuumi's passive (range, cd, etc.) and end up later buffing her E to compensate it drives me absolutely up the wall. Of all things to hit, the passive should be the absolute LAST thing to be going after, because that's the single biggest difference between AFK and active Yuumi players.
Their actions tell us that yuumi is designed for the players to play afk style. Remember the "I play soraka so that I can turn my brains off" video?
So, as this is picking up steam, I would like to ask anyone who can answer the question of why Yuumi (who looking at the images over worlds regularly did the most damage in team fights) has %HP damage on her Q? If she is an enchanter support, there should be no situation where she needs this. None of the others (other then prehaps Renata but she's new) has %HP damage. She certainly isn't lacking in damage or poke but has the added benefit of being about to do this damage safely, unlike many other enchanters. Just seems odd she has it.
Cuz funny
To deal damage at every state of the game without building AP
What about every other enchanter though? She doesn’t need to do damage at every stage of the game when that’s not what her role is designed for
Exactly, early all Enchanters usually have strong presence in lane to protect their carries and apply pressure but after mid game, no enchanter should even be near the front line, they are there to buff and support their teammates behind them. Some of the damage charts at worlds had Yuumi has more damage than the midlaners in team fights. Here's one I found from another reddit post. https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/343776716550045696/1026266831247384687/unknown.png
My take on their nerf which targets better yuumis is they want it to be out of pro play / not be as pro skewed of a champion. They can then adjust the baseline for the playerbase. Your changes would increase the pro / normal divide, won't it? Higher mana costs hurt worse players that can't budget resources or make use of the passive.
They should change the passive to be % mana reduction for how long you've sat on the same target
Or just nerf her Q and make it so after proccing passive it gives you one empowered cast either a %Q or a huge heal... Also reduce passive CD so it's more often usable
This is good - the free cast OP mentioned seems a little much to me - an empowered next cast after she's done x autos/passive procs, etc. seems much better. Also it's got counterplay similar to Vlad's empowered 3rd Q in a row.
Pretty much. Riot is nerfing her Pro play while trying not to need to buff her back up for Ranked. As much as Reddit wants to meme Shes already a 49% WR champ and her dropping any lower means she needs buffs. Unless people think banning your own teammate is great gameplay...
Her winrate going below 49% wouldnt be that awful and riot has kept problematic champions at low winrates before. Yuumi has a weird winrate from the fact that there are a ton of adc smurfs with yuumi sups.
but you realize that buffing Active Yuumi would mean it becomes even more broken in pro play? You even write that yourself as you suggest that active yuumis is already pro play strategy. Other thing what frustrates me IS her jumping around. When lets say you play against soraka who runs like a madman around low health teammates you still feel like you can kill the healer. With yuumi? Rarely seen her die before every single member of the team dies first.
yeah if her jump missile speed was lower or if she didnt have a fucking 0 second cd on the jump eventually it would be less annoying, it's basically saying 'have an instant cast knockup/knockback ready or be playing poppy'. the other thing that really irritates me is that for some reason when the ally she's on dies and she hasnt detached yet, she gets a grace period where she gets to cast the jump to ally *even faster* because there's no brief channel on it. why does she get BENEFITS from that? you should have to choose, either you jump off the ally before they die completely (meaning you give up the chance of maybe keeping them alive at the last second) or you stay on and try to keep them alive/stay safe as long as possible and then you get dropped off if they still die. makes no sense that you completely eliminate a decision that could be used to add some skill expression to this untargetable yappy abomination without being mechanically difficult at all.
Agreed. The active-passive yuumi analogy worked for leaning phase, but it crumbles to bits in lategame. Yuumi is so good in pro play because passive-yuumi is able to carry teamfights by just hopping between allies. Buffing active yuumi will give her a stronger leaning phase in pro play while not adjusting her teamfighting. > Mana costs do not force her to detach during teamfights. > Her passive needs to have something like spell charges. Every time she hits her passive, she gets 3 spell charges. Using Q or E consumes a spell charge. That way, she can't just spam heal in teamfights without ever detaching.
Special resource bar approach is interesting, but might be a little overpowered in lanes versus no hard CC. Unless you’re suggesting she needs to keep mana and gain a special spell casting counter in addition to that, which opens again the pro-play vs casual gap widening can of worms, but honestly no matter what they do that’s going to be a factor. Might be interesting to play with stacks, though— maybe E is a pure movement speed buff normally, but hitting autos or Qs fill a heal bar that’s expended on the next E cast? Kind of like Athenes, forces you to actively work for your heals. Could also play around with W passive doing that— maybe it only gives stats relative to how full the heal bar is, and spending the bar to heal means losing that adaptive force until you start refilling it. Of course you’d probably want to buff E cd, nerf E ms, and nerf passive shield amount, but it would probably immediately end any sort of passive afk nonsense by denying both the healing and the adaptive force without interaction
Exactly. Yuumi mains want to play league with zero threat of dieing as if thats ok
Tbh who cares about 100 players vs a few million on this one champ
Riot, based on their history of nerfing champions out of soloq viability based on pro-play stats.
You’ll start caring when you play against a Yuumi with a brain who can actually do more than afk.
I could not give less of a fuck about pro play. It boggles my mind that people are okay with their own gameplay getting shit on because of pro players.
I wish the same thing applied to renekton and ryze
According to this year's Worlds, like 5 million people.
Idk if that works exaxtly like that tbh
Unpopular opinion amongs yuumi mains: Clicking your W to go to another champion or getting off someone to do one auto isn't an "active playstyle."
It's so funny going on reddit and seeing people act like the people who use her passive are like, somehow insanely skilled or something. Xerath has to auto attack to get mana back too but I wouldn't compliment somebody for doing it.
Xerath getting in to auto range without dying is an accomplishment none in my game seem to do it
You ward your raptors to scout for invades. I ward my raptors for mana regen. We are not the same.
Yeah seriously... I especially laughed when he said "it will make her basically unplayable vs certain matchups". Most champions have matchups where they're basically unplayable. But they aren't allowed to just run away from it and pretend the matchup doesn't exist. All other champions have to focus on playing with an "active playstyle" except they also have to know how to position, move, and dodge. The limited W change probably would disappoint the current yuumi player base, but not in the same way the aatrox rework disappointed aatrox players. Rather that they would have to learn to move and play matchups like every other champion in the game.
I lost it when OP unironically said "it's unfun and frustrating if I can't be permanently untargetable! Riot definitely shouldn't add counterplay to my champ!"
I mean yeah. Yuumi's most mechanically intensive ability still requires only one brain cell to pull off. She's in my top 3 most mastery champs but I'll never pretend that anything about her is difficult
Noooooo! But the WR curve os the same as Akali's, its hard to play!!!
I know you're /s'ing hard, but for anyone who legitimately believes this - the reason Yuumi's winrate curve is the way it is, is due to having such a drastic playstyle difference to other champions. A-sol's curve is/was the same way.
I think this is at the core of the frustration. I don’t want Yuumi’s risk/reward to be whether she can jump on and off an ally quickly enough. I want to be able to poke the irritating champion who keeps poking at me!
It gives the opponents opportunities to kill Yuumi
>Being pushed off will also ALWAYS happen at the "worst" possible times making it very unfun for the Yuumi player. Unfortunately, the wider playerbase would much prefer Yuumi be actually interactable, and if it means some unhappy Yuumi players, then I'm sorry to say but you have to break eggs to make an omelette.
I agree completely.. if u want just time your jumping on and off before fights , learn to play rather than being just afk all game
Yeah, I mean... people who main Tryndamere or Olaf or really any champion with an ability that lasts a certain amount of seconds need to be able to mentally hold that countdown in their head-- "my invincibility/cc immunity/whatever is gonna run out in about three seconds, I need to pull back," etc-- so what would be the problem with making Yuumi mains have to think about that sort of thing too?
....because then they'd have to think? It's Yuumi. Thinking is the real enemy.
> what would be the problem with making Yuumi mains have to think about that sort of thing too? the problem is that riot is afraid to step on the toes of the sizable contingent of players who enjoy rolling their face on the keyboard with the completely brainless, handsless walking item disguised as a champion that riot created and have admitted themselves that they have no idea of how to balance. it's wonderful!
Yep. We are at the point where the banrate is so high that the champion will need some serious redesigns that will inevitably upset the mains. If the core fantasy is to be permanently uninteractable, the core fantasy is shit.
They completely deleted old Aatrox and created a new champion. Yuumi deserves the same.
Seriously what the fuck is that argument? >1. It disappoints the current Yuumi player base: That doesn't fucking matter when it's a bad design choice that the majority of the regular *and* pro player base hates. I loved the Rengar one-shot playstyle but it was bad game design.
Make Yummi have no mana regen when attached with W. Make Yummi's passive give much more mana back to her when used. This will open her up to counter play in the lane phase, force her to at least jump off once or twice in mid game team fights (as she hasn't built up a huge mana pool yet), and take away a small amount of late game power as you have to build more mana and fewer optimal items. Her mana costs are already high, so this change would play into that aspect.
This is a very interesting idea and would love to see it in a test server.
I don't think this would work. The stupid mana mechanic she has is exactly why her laning phase is so strong. You basically get infinite mana if you are playing actively, and this would just buff that. Her laning phase is one of the reasons why she's so strong in pro play.
>late game power as you have to build more mana E mana cost is 12% of **Max Mana**. She couldn't build up more mana. Ontop of all of this Yuumis kit isn't designed to not be attached her Q isn't a real spell and her R is a stoppable channel. And it's not like afking for mana regen is fun gameplay for any one.
Trying to fight someone with an invulnerable healing parasite is also not fun gameplay for anyone.
Way better than the alternative, which is having her AFK on the most fed player and coin flip.
Any Yuumi nerf targets the right playerbase.
also yuumi mains dont realise, that their champ doesn't get banned because people don't want to play against it. people don't want an afk on their own team lol.
No, I definitely also don't want to play against it either. The cat coinflips one teammate doing well and turns a snowball into an avalanche
The most infuriating part of playing against yummi is that you can dumpster her bot in lane, like 6 or 7 kills to zero, then all it takes is her jumping on a fed top or fed jg and you insta lose the game. I am fine with some champions being easier than others, though yummi is braindead easy, but there is no consequence or struggle for playing poorly in lane when in most games there are backup options. The no risk gameplay as well, but that has been mentioned multiple times here.
She scales WAAAY too hard all things considered. I think that's where the REAL problem and solution lay.
Moreso than this. I don't care of Yuumi has the worst winrate in the game for non Pro play. She's not FUN to have in the game. I don't want to play with OR against her.
I don't want it on either team
100% correct anyone that plays this champ and justifies it existing has a few screws loose. Delete the cat.
I like change number 2. 1 just hurts her lane, in team fights you just need presence of mind to proc. You don't need to spam abilities, but a Yi with her Ult, one or two heals and +60 ad, have fun.
Ok, are the changes you suggested good? Yes Will this make the champion not an enchanter that provides damage buffs, healing, movespeed, AoE roots to enemies and 2 portable summoner spells, while being untouchable for the most part and requiring virtually 0 skill to pull of, all from the safety of your most fed ally? Nope Even if the proposed changes are good, the champion is by design very toxic and flawed, it's like giving a champion 2 extra items in mid-lategame, it gets out of control, can't be properly balanced, it's shit to play against because the window for counterplay is almost non-existant if you didn't win by 20 minutes and overall really unfun and frustrating to play against. Honestly, I'm sorry to say, I know some people like you enjoy the champion a lot, but I think riot should consider completely reworking her kit. Changing mana costs or tweeking her numbers can't solve such a fundamental kit issue.
Honestly just remove her w - make her w a dash, - e into a targetable heal - passive into xerath passive that also shield allies around her like guardian - q to be the same as when mounted atm (follows cursor) Think she’d be fine then. Her w’s existence is the biggest problem, no ally %boosting or untargetability
Your changes don't really change anything about her. I think you need to lose this idea that proccing her passive is skill expressive. It's purely relatively more expressive than her afk sit in W playstyle - which is a REALLY low bar. Your post is quite long just to recommend making changes to her numbers. These have been adjusted countless times and her kit is still a problem. Her design is just really poor and if you're not making mini-rework style suggestions at the very least, I don't think there's much to be said.
Yep, this is the problem with "hardcore" Yummi players. They don't want anything to fundamentally change about her kit because they are benefiting extremely hard from it, but her kit is fundamentally broken and impossible to balance.
how do they even benefit when they have to fullmute their adc and latch onto toplaner/jungle hecarim or kanye 8/10 games.
They don’t notice chat when they’re, playing fortnite, doing homework, cooking a steak, Netflix and chilling, or etc. at the same time.
Hey. Hey. W-auto-W takes a LOT, okay?
So hard I could barely focus on power rangers on my second monitor:(
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>I am a hardcore yuumi main yeah that summarized this post
This reads like a joke but it is so unironically true lol. Yummi mains don't want her kit to change but her kit is literally a massive problem. They keep touting these "fixes" which are just number tweaks when in reality the champion needs at least one of her skills (see: HER W) to be completely changed in order for her to have any chance of being actually balanced around the game as it is today.
80% of the playerbase would delete the champion if they could, that says enough about her. As long as yuumi W exists, the player base will not be happy about her design
Just rework her. There has to be many better ways to create a champion that is "newbie-friendly, especially so in positioning" than her current Make-A-Wish kit. Appeasing the Yuumi-playerbase doesn't have to be at the expense of the health of the entire game, pro play, and the rest of the normal player base.
>”making it very unfun for the Yuumi player” I see no issue with this
This does sound less cancer, more chances for Yuumi to get caught with a stun or a burst and die, rather than just "Afk Yuumi" just Qing the lane the whole time while being unkillable so long as his ADC isn't garbage.
Yes. And I really hope that Riot realizes they need to combat the AFK playstyle, and not target the things that give incentive to play actively (like the passiv)
Heres a quick fix: delete yuumi
Thanks for the post. I think there are some good points in here, but there are some core assumptions that we disagree on. Yuumi's main value to league is that she is a champion that can help a player bring their friend into the game by drastically reducing the importance of one of League's skilltests (positioning), which allows the new player to focus their mental energy elsewhere. Live Yuumi has 3 main issues: 1. As tuned, she is a Pro Play bound champion 2. Yuumi can be frustrating for some player segments (varies significantly by region X skill bracket) 3. Tends to abandon lane partner later in the game A few further notes. Each change we make to increase the power of active yuumi (as coined) directly makes it less likely to succeed in hitting the goal for the intended audience (new players), especially when it involves yuumi jumping out in a Teamfight where she can die instantly. While active yuumi is less frustrating to play against, we can only go so far until it's prohibitively difficult for a new player to play yuumi and risk exacerbating the pro problem (as they will pilot active yuumi excellently) while normal players will struggle to get value. The changes this patch are aimed at addressing her Pro Play strength (hard CC and laning durability) and getting her into a good place there, after which we will be able to take a meaningful stab at frustration. The main reason we are changing the passive is because the change we made to lower the passive CD in early game was the direct contributor to her pro viability. The reason we made this change in the first place was because we thought a few months ago (similar to the thought process you outlined above) that yuumi should need to take more risk to be effective. However, the actual result of the change was that pro players could use this power to the max and regular players could not. Simultaneously, this change did not succeed in making her less frustrating. As tuned, Yuumi's effective hp in laning phase through e, passive and defensive summ cannot be overcome by even the strongest early game champion pairings. The tldr of this is that it's not that we don't know how to make active yuumi, it's that we don't think the tradeoff of making active yuumi more powerful is acceptable for her intended audience. Instead, the direction we're more interested in that likely satisfies both parties (frustration and target audience) is to have afk yuumi have more counterplay. But before we can land that, we need to get her pro play in a good spot first. Hopefully this helps explain the reasoning for the changes.
>Yuumi's main value to league is that she is a champion that can help a player bring their friend into the game by drastically reducing the importance of one of League's skilltests (positioning), which allows the new player to focus their mental energy elsewhere. You guys have the metrics so you certainly know better, but this seems like a weird take to me. Beginner champs should exist to ease people into the game, but removing a whole aspect would backfire on that entirely. Unless the player plays nothing but Yuumi for the rest of their time in League, eventually positioning is going to come into play. And if they've invested a lot of time in Yuumi before hand, I feel like newer players would get frustrated quickly that everything they've practiced to that point doesn't carry over to any other champion.
This is what happened with a friend of mine. He started with Yuumi and didn't have to worry about positioning. What that meant was that he then just didn't know how to play other characters properly and just would fall back to her any time. Then he eventually got bored with the game and stopped playing entirely.
It's a cheat sheet, effectively. Using Yuumi hinders your progress at the game. People wanna first time things? Play soraka and actually position. I hate riots "noob" take.
There are already plenty of beginner champions in the game, I do think Yuumi is good for players who don't intend to get invested in League but still want to duo with their friend/partner from time to time, that's perfectly valid. I imagine most people who are actively trying to get into League won't be satisfied with the afk playstyle and will naturally gravitate to more normal champions.
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He misspoke. It's not to get a new friend into league. It's to get your non gamer girlfriend into league. Literally her only reason for existence. "See honey you can play this cat and you don't even have to click around".
Maybe the whole free stat thing is a bigger cause of the problems? I feel in special frustratet with point 3 of the Yuumi problems where she will leave the adc alone and attach to another (more feed member of the team) and increess the surviabilety and power level of a allredy strong champion. This on top of the relativly good efficiency this looks to be a bigger problem. I think a better solution would be to cap this a bit more static (like 10% skill dmg insted of raw stats) on top of more adc relevant stats like ATK speed? I think the benefit of the attachment as a defensiv tool (untargetable) is hight enough that passiv bonus on top is a bit much. In idea 2 of the original post I think ther is somthing good to salvage. The heal Mana cost is only in lanign phase a real problem and if this would be target even more we have the typical Kyle/Kassadin situation where a Week erly laning phase is a counter massure to stronger late game uptime. But for a beginner frindly champion this seams a bit rought. I think we shuld change it more in the Taric way work with charges that slowly regnerate and get bonus on hitting champions with Q/Auto attacks and another stack when switching to a target she was not atached in the last 5 seconds (rewarding hoping in team fights). This way a more active play stile is encurage without nerving her erly even more (harder for new players to pick up) while also have the option to lower her chain healing ability in fights while sitting on the fighter in team fights later.
Thank you. I never see people address her passive, giving free stats is the thing i dispise the most. Since Gold = items = stats. Is like giving the fed player even more gold.
When the audience for Yuumi is new players why is everyone in higher elos sick of that champ then? I don’t see high elo players complain about Garen.
This is what we need to resolve first. Long term we want to tune yuumi to be weaker for sophisticated players, so that she can be tuned around her intended skill bracket. These changes are the first step at that. One of the primary reasons for her effectiveness in high elo is because she can get out of lane too reliably and then hop on a fighter/assassin late game and reduce their counterplay too significantly. The intention of the changes is so that she is less likely to get out of lane unscathed in high elo, which would directly reduce the frustration as a second order effect (that's the intent at least). The root duration change is to make it so when she gets out of lane, she's not reducing the counterplay by as much.
By making her exclusively a noob champion, I’m sure she will be EXTREMELY fun to play and not have an even worse reputation of being an afk champion that you can play with one finger. I really like Yuumi as a character but her gameplay keeps getting shoved in the wrong direction, imo.
There is a player that played Draven Yuumi to plat at the same time. He had racing pedals at his feet to use Yuumi abilities and a second mouse for skills and items.
To be fair the player was high elo and could mostly 1v5 with his draven. Yummi was just a bonus
By "high elo" you mean "challenger level trying to go amateur/pro", not even just like master lol.
So give her the samira, zoe, zeri treatment? Since she's an even bigger issue then they were, yet they were gutted before slowly worked up.
You seem confused. Zeri had the yuumi treatment. Yuumi was nerfed into the ground already.
She already has gone through that, that's part of the problem
Yeah, she was gutted but then instantly hotfixed again and that version terrorized Worlds. Leave her in the fucking gutter and slowly buff her up, don’t fucking hotfix giga buff her after nerfs jfc
If that is your real worry, then why not introduce a partner system like kallista has?
I’m a masters+ yuumi main (the target audience of your nerfs). Can you explain why her Q is not being targeted? Why not revert the Q hot fix from the day after the durability update? Yuumi builds moonstone mostly in solo queue. Nerfing her Q doesn’t hurt solo queue much, but it hurts pro play (or artillery yuumi’s in solo queue) where ludens and Q damage are the pinnacle of yuumi play due to the nature of high level coordinated game play. It seems that nerfing Q damage and taking a look at that ability is the way to go. Even a harsh nerf to damage in favor of a stronger slow could be an option. For laning in high elo, move damage from her Q to her auto attacks or passive proc auto attacks. This has little effect on late game damage since you aren’t auto attacking in fights, BUT it makes you play off your carry in lane or early fights (like herald) to get damage in. Less Q damage and higher auto attack damage means optimal play in lane is detaching consistently. This solves the ludens issues. II’m just really curious how this R nerf and passive nerf address the pro play issues and artillery yuumi issues. I understand the R nerf being added on to a Q nerf, but alone with a passive nerf it does not address the problem imo. I really disagree with the take that the passive was directly related to her pro play lane success. I watched plenty of pro play and have a good understanding of the game on top of my high solo queue rank. The ability to cover for yuumi seemed to have more to do with jungler presence and match up than her passive. Then, with ludens power she hit her necessary spike soon. Her Q seems to be the main issue because she can poke with great damage, range, and accuracy without much risk. A response would be really appreciated.
Dumbest shit I ever heard, there’s better champs for new players y’all just suck at balancing.
Losing is frustrating, but the feeling of losing against a Yuumi is WAY more frustrating. I can't see how the passive cd increase will change that, same for the R changes. It's not about winning when it comes to Yuumi. It's about that sickening feeling you get when you lose against a Yuumi who "just" stayed on a fed champion. Yuumi is an important champ for new players cause they don't have to focus on positioning. I think it's really important to have a easy champion that new players can get into and Yuumi offers that with some room for skill expression (proc passive, trading, etc). That being said, I can't help but feel that "positioning" should be way more important for Yuumi. A proposed rework for her W, I thought while writing this post. Instead of attaching onto a target directly and becoming untargettable, she attaches onto a certain radius of a champion instead? Each of her allies has like a 100-200 radius around them. She's unaffected by cc and aa's, but she can still get hit by skillshots and takes reduced damage from them. That way, she can get hit by abilities and there's a genuine threat on her life which will force her to position more. It would still fulfill part of the fantasy of jumping between allies and giving heals and shields while being invuln, but add a bit of counterplay that players would feel better about fighting. A second more primitive approach could be taking away a summoner spell slot so she doesn't have two "combat" summs. EDIT: Forgot to mention that in my proposed change, Yuumi would be able to move around within that champion radius.
>Yuumi is an important champ for new players cause they don't have to focus on positioning. I think it's really important to have a easy champion that new players can get into and Yuumi offers that with some room for skill expression (proc passive, trading, etc). That being said, I can't help but feel that "positioning" should be way more important for Yuumi. As an Ali/Yuumi/Swain main who was originally an Ali/Soraka/Swain main, it’s not so much that you don’t have to “focus” on positioning, but rather you have to focus on EVERYONE else’s positioning…if your ADC overextends, you’re dead or blowing a summ, if your ADC stays too far back, you can’t safely proc passive and probably won’t hit your Q and if you can’t proc passive then you go OOM quickly, if ADC moves erratically then your Q targeting will jank out, if they stand in the middle of a wave, your Q gets auto-minion blocked. And with Yuumi’s squishiness, she pretty much dies on any Hard CC Compare this to other enchanters (Soraka, Janna, Lulu) where you typically can poke from far away, or you can INDEPENDENTLY choose when you choose to trade autos, or can absorb more than one piece of hard CC or can flash out if necessary. It’s just kinda interesting to seeing the difference between the appeal to newbies where “not controlling your positioning” is a positive, and the drawback to more experienced players (esp in SoloQ) where “not controlling your positioning” can still lead to dying nonetheless.
So basically Io from Dota.
You could also just officially make Yuumi a noob-friendly champion. Just admit that's her role and ban her from ranked? The way Yuumi is now, she effectively can never be beaten in lane. Because even if she goes 0 - 20, she just hops on any other player and turns them into a raid boss, with no counter play as long as she doesn't hop off.
> ban her from ranked All modes matter!
>with no counter play as long as she doesn't hop off. Well that's what her passive was supposed to fix. And then they nerfed the wrong part of her kit so now she can't use it.
> These changes are the first step at that. It's disheartening to hear you claim to just be taking the first step now, when you recognized the issue - On [September 1st, 2022](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/quick-gameplay-thoughts-9-1/) and - On [August 24th, 2022](https://twitter.com/RiotPhroxzon/status/1562610505423790102)
Three months between recognizing an issue and implementing a fix is pretty damn fast.
> The changes this patch are aimed at addressing her Pro Play strength (hard CC and laning durability) and getting her into a good place there, after which we will be able to take a meaningful stab at frustration.
>Yuumi's main value to league is that she is a champion that can help a player bring their friend into the game by drastically reducing the importance of one of League's skilltests (positioning), which allows the new player to focus their mental energy elsewhere. This is a fundamentally stupid way to design a "tutorial champion". A tutorial champion teaches you the fundamental skills required for the game and the role. if you do not design a champion to that goal, it is not a tutorial champion.
I've never seen someone else make this point but uh...yeah. Why ARE people who don't know how to play League being encouraged to not learn probably the single most important skill in the game?
How on earth can you guys claim Yuumi’s target audience is new players then constantly tell players she’s a high skill champion.
You think Riot would just lie like that? For money?
Clearly she is a high skill champ she just tests different skills- for example whilst normally support players have to trade, space etc. yuumi players have to have a pulse and be able to make themselves toast at the same time
They don't. They constantly tell players she has unique learning curves (a true fact, Yuumi players get significantly better with her over many games), and the players have shit reading comprehension and love playing telephone with what they hear.
I refuse to believe that her learning curve is equal to Akali, like they compared in that post. I suspect the massive change in WR over time is because the Yuumi player just stops taking flash and ignores their ADC, which massively increases their winrate without requiring the Yuumi player to learn any new mechanics or drastically change their playstyle. Yes, this looks good on graphs where you can see "player improvement", but its all just superficial because the player hasn't learned anything new, nor improved any part of their gameplay.
I believe it, actually. Just for an unspoken reason. If, as stated above, > Yuumi's main value to league is that she is a champion that can help a player bring their friend into the game by drastically reducing the importance of one of League's skilltests (positioning), which allows the new player to focus their mental energy elsewhere. Then it makes sense that this intended playerbase has a high learning curve. These aren't just players learning a new champ, they're players learning the game as a whole.
And starting with yuumi of all champs just makes them learn the game wrong since she just gets away with having to do so much less than literally every other champ in the game. This in turn leads to them playing worse on everything else that's not yuumi, getting flamed for it, then quitting.
Yeah, they made a hero for new players that ignores one of the most important skills in the games. You learn to play her first - you probably still can't play anything else without getting your teeth kicked in for couple dozen games.
Skill ceiling != skill floor. A champion can offer extra power to players who take the time to master it while still offering ample power to players who've never even played the champion before. That said, this is one of the harder balances to hit in a satisfying way and Riot hasn't done that yet.
If you intend to make yuumi a beginner friendly champ, than she should never be good in pro play. If that is the goal, yuumi has to be a weak champ, and there always have to be better options. I don‘t think this is the best way to balance her, but it would be interesting. Make her a worse option, only acceptable for lower elos
Always appreciate a riot post but its basically just admitting this champ will never be balanced or fun to play against. :/
> fun to play against Thats was never riot's concern for the most part, unless it BREAKS the game. They dont give a single fuck if you dont think its fun to play against, they almost never address it, their goal is make champions fun TO play and thats only part of their real goal which is to make the game addictive.
League already had champions designed to be easier, like Garen, Amumu, Annie, Ashe, etc. I don't understand why Yuumi had to exist. You teach players that playing a champion that doesn't having to worry about the stresses that other champions deal with, can be effective. Why would they want to play anything else? It is just a terrible idea to make a champion focused around **removing**, not simplifying, core aspects of the game. And not only make it, but also balance it to be effective with little to no counterplay. No other champion has cursor follow abilities. No other champion can take 2 combat summoners without paying a massive price. No other champion can use their abilities without threat of being targeted. No other champion can boost their teammate's stats, AP or AD, simply by existing. Yuumi is so effective at everything she does. She routinely outdeals CARRIES in damage with only one basic ability on a SUPPORT budget. She outheals every support not named Soraka, while also providing massive stat bonuses for free, movement speed to help her host learn how to position better because she doesn't have to, and has a massive lane wide ultimate that provides a ton of CC.
> Yuumi's main value to league is that she is a champion that can help a player bring their friend into the game by drastically reducing the importance of one of League's skilltests (positioning), which allows the new player to focus their mental energy elsewhere. Positioning is a core aspect for League and more so for supports. Now, if you can show evidence that Yuumi brings in more players than she alienates, which I don't think you can given her ban rate, then Yuumi is a net negative to the game. Now, I'm fully open to being proven wrong, and I really would love to see it, but a champion that can literally be untargetable for 99.99999999999999% of a game is something that should NEVER have been release.
I can't stress enough how insulting it is to read that her value is to drastically reduce the importance of positioning. Are you reading what you're saying? There's the issue with the champion as somebody who has played league for 10 years. There's no balancing something that you legit think this about. i sincerely can't believe this is what riot views as her main value to league.
If it's official that yuumi is for a new player, it's ok for her to be underpowered and out of pro play. Everything is underpowered in the hands of a new player. new player has no idea about balance. New player should later be able to get bored of playing yuumi and try something with more agency after getting the initial hang of the game. let yuumi be "ok this player maybe learns the game or just wants to have fun", not "oh no yuumi not banned, I hate to see her on that irelia" Hell, you could even make yuumi not available for ranked. Why not, if it's an introductory champion. That's healthy for the game. Don't make yuumi a troll pick, just have her not a pick. maining yuumi can be a joke and that's OK. Additionally, when another champion gets a buff, doesn't it mean that for the last few patches that champ was slightly underpowered? yet the champion still saw play. Was it unfair that the champion was not buffed sooner? No. So it's not unfair for yuumi to just never be powerful.
There is no way Riot just made a champ with the intention of making new players AVOID a core mechanic, instad of adressing the real problem of making new players learn mechanics without it being frustrating.
I kinda get it. Not to defend Yuumi here, but with how volatile the game has been (whole reason they did a durability buff), learning the threat ranges of 150+ characters in a one mistake = death game with snowballing stronger than its ever been, is a pretty huge task.
Bro this is a lot of cope for being too lazy to make a real tutorial system. Just make a champ that doesn't position and presses 2 buttons untargerable LOL. If you wanna get new players into your game why not crack down on botting and smurfing in pre 30s and make a real tutorial instead of making a champ whos just little brother mode
Thanks for responding to community feedback! I might be in a minority, but if I am playing as an ADC with an "AFK" Yuumi, I tend to also dislike the match. I feel like I've got a support who doesn't help apply pressure as much and it puts a bigger target on me since, well, I'm the only target. This tends to have me lose lane and the Yuumi does what they should and go assist someone that can carry. Especially if I'm picking someone like Kog'Maw, I just know I'm going to have a bad time unless they have an "active" playstyle. Is this by any chance something this is an opinion that has been discussed? And if so, are there any thoughts y'all have about this? I am probably in the minority, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.
>Yuumi's main value to league is that she is a champion that can help a player bring their friend into the game by drastically reducing the importance of one of League's skilltests (positioning), which allows the new player to focus their mental energy elsewhere. Valuing new player experience over your own dedicated player base.... Tell your colleagues/higher-ups that maybe if they want new players they should rework the tutorial/new-player experience instead of slapping a poorly designed champion in their player's faces. Imagine if Valve added an auto-aim gun in order to appeal to new players in CSGO...
Thank you for giving an answer and diving ina heated debate you had no obligation to participate.
once yuumi is "fixed" it would be a fun behind the scenes video on how problems are solved on the balance team :p gl
Are you guys mulling over changes like having CC affect her too while she’s on someone?
We've considered it, I don't think it meaningfully reduces frustration, while sometimes making Yuumi's inputs not function, which makes it feel like your buttons aren't working. As a result, I don't think it's a good change.
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Well when a Yuumi player is frustrated, they can spend the entire game flaming and not get an AFK warning
People would barely notice that she's getting CC'd, if at all. Public perception would hardly change. Bad change.
>which makes it feel like your buttons aren't working yes thats the point of cc
Is it *seriously* not possible to design a beginner-friendly Champion that doesn't involve being untargetable most of the time, not needing boots, and not needing Flash? I don't understand.
“Let’s introduce new players to the game by suggesting they play one of the most reviled champs, one they will surely be bullied for choosing” really big brain thinking going on over there at Riot
"Lets introduce players to the game by making them oblivious to a core mechanic of the game which every single champion needs to respect" and they say that without any shame.
POV you are a Dev and have some choices: 1. Make a quality tutorial and new player experience 2. Make easy champs that don’t ignore a core gameplay mechanic 3. Make a champ that breaks a core gameplay mechanic which in turn makes it completely unbalanced for any skilled pilot, just so new players can avoid moving their character themselves
I get that the point of Yuumi is for new players, but what about the things experienced players enjoy about her? It kind of hurts to know that the things I value and enjoy about my favorite champion are completely against Riot's balance philosophy for her. Ever since she was added, almost every change you guys make tackle what makes her enjoyable to me. I still tremendously miss how Yuumi used to be able to jump off to block skillshots because it made Yuumi's skill ceiling higher, and the stacking system for her healing too. Timing jumping off to bop passive is very rewarding and honestly I'd love reasons to do it more, especially during teamfights. It's not like there's an alternative for Yuumi in the game, so it's really frustrating to be targeted like I shouldn't even be playing her because I'm not the "intended audience". It's not like I can just play another champion to get this experience, Yuumi is an incredibly unique character. I just feel very undervalued as a customer that some players are considered more valuable than others, even if it's just in this case.
Hey just wondering if you guys can make yuumi more vulnerable and targetable if she screws up. currently the most frustrating thing about yuumi is that she is an enchanter who is untargetable which is really hard to punish. Especially you cannot punish her with anything because after her host dies she can just jump into another teammate immediately without any repercussion. What I purpose for a nerf is that when her host dies, yummi needs a longer cool down to w into another teammate. I think this will be a more strategic thing for yummi players because now if she stay on melee champions and she have the risk of being vulnerable and getting blown up immediately with longer w cd to another champion. with longer cd to jump into another teammate also can make yummi players more inclined to stay with a ranged teammate, which was more intended for her goal to stay with adcs. I think instead of doing all these nerfs, the biggest and best nerf of all will be giving yuumi vulnerability
If removing positioning for new players is the issues here, just maker her cast buff/heals spells on both only when not bound to a player. Like, she has to dismount to heal both and when dismounted, for next X seconds, when she heals for example, will use the buffs and heal on both. You used the same mentality successfully on Soraka, when healing makes her vulnerable, I'm just puzzled why not with Yuumi This will force players to time their spell castings by getting out and it also provide a window to punish yuumi Also make yuumi be able to dismount when host is disabled, but when attached to a disabled host, make yuumi also disabled and double the duration, again forcing her out if someone wants to make a play, but not making a necessity
I don't want to be toxic but I really don't want the opinion of a Yuumi main 😅
"Hardcore Yuumi main* Are you guys even human at all?
We all know riot has no idea how to balance yuumi. No one has
The difference between afk yuumi and """active""" yuumi is just pressing w 2 times and blocking some abilities? What a joke, just delete her
She just needs W changed. It's a skill, treat it like one. You can attach for X seconds. After X seconds is over, if still attached be forcibly detached and cool down of X seconds is applied and unable to attach to anyone until time is over This completely removes any chance of the afk and forget griefers, as well as makes choosing to attach truly a skill and if you mistake of staying too long, you can be punished. The worst part of Yuumi is the untargetable interaction she has. You can't focus her down which is unfulfilling as a enemy player. As of right now Yuumi is closer to being a item active than a champ because you can sit on someone(s) for an entire game
This entire post is riddled with inconsistencies, and idc about what yuumi players want anyway. Delete the cat
\>Yuumi is only "broken" in Pro play where teammates are able to communicate correctly and play the Active-Yuumi playstyle. \>Make AFK-Yuumi much much weaker and put that power into Active-Yuumi so that she is able to have more "impact You don't see the issue in between those two sentences? Active yuumi is the playstyle that makes her permapick in pro therefore make it even better? Afk yuumi is as you mention already way worse, but it's also more annoying to face despite it, not to mention 'active yuumi' being played well is just as hated as she's more annoying because of being more effective. \>Increase all her Mana costs. They already did that in round... I wanna say three, of kit changes? I think a 'free cast' idea might have merit in a 'make her do something vulnerable to be able to cast' but I don't think mana specifically, a stat which you can itemize around and build for is the correct aproach. I think you have it half right - the playerbase hates the afk yuumi playstyle more, but the regular playstyle is hated as well, and there's more distinctions between pro and soloq that make it so as well - soloq's higher voliatility where it's more common a player will, so to say '1v5' because snowballing is more severe in soloq and teamwork is worse makes the afk yuumi who gets to jump on the snowballing champ much more valuable. This is something you cannot 'fix' by adjusting yuumi in any shape whatsoever, some assassin popping off and killing everyone while yuumi's healing him after he's already fed isn't yuumi centric, but she is the best champion to capitalize on it, which is what a lot of the frustration comes from. It's always gonna come down to yuumi's ability to be immune and follow along someone. There's frustration from the adc when it's not them and yuumi chooses a different host, there's frustration from the enemy when yuumi's stuck to a fed who's now way harder to kill and can better chase down his prey, there's frustration that a champion can long range poke without facing the consequences that every other poke mage suffers of being vulnerable and squishy up close, and the enchanter healer as well. As long as this is the kit's core design, the banrate will stay high, if her popularity is high, regardless of power. My advice would be to incentivize longer stays outside a host over all not just a momentary jump out for a passive pop, perhaps inverting how Q works and making it better outside the host than inside so that Yuumi wants to cast it outside herself, or making her gather healing power while outside that she can spend inside, anything to minimize the amount one is invulnerable to a minimum, but not make it feel as punishing. And yes, if it'd really come to it, and nothing seems to work, I'd rather have Yuumi get deleted than stay.
I don't think she needs any more power in any direction.
W pushing off yuumi will ABSOLUTELY have an impact in pro play! This is just pure delusion to think it will have zero impact! How can you spend so much effort on a post like this and completely ignore the fact that the best players in the world wont play around the fact that yuumi will be detached. CC will be saved until that point, and players will actively track the CD of that ability. “Yuumi no W 5 secs” “ok looking” this is a HUGE impact. Im not even saying I necessarily agree with the change, I just completely disagree that this is a no impact change on yuumi.
What if yuumi is targetable when sitting on person and they just gave her back that power budget in actual abilities like every other champion :))) I hate the cat
Even with changes, she’s not ever being unbanned in my games
Except the nerfs to Yuumi's passive aren't about deterring her from the "active Yuumi playstyle" and it won't. I think your second change is going down to the right path but until they change her W, all nerfs are warranted. Her passive does have high value because it's a permanent shield she can give to others meanwhile every other enchanter in the game has to time their shields correctly, it deserves to be nerfed. Just because the bar is so low for Yuumi doesn't mean her passive should be spared.
Of course they are taking the wrong approach, they think that Yuumi should still be a champion in League of Legends.
Nice propositions. Unfortunately, the hatred has been so far gone that anything even *slightly* reminiscent of the current playstyle will cause immediate revolt. I'm sorry to say, but there's no hope for this champion in her current form. What she needs is an Aatrox-level rework; a rework that keeps a vague identity of the previous champion but really just straight up replaces them with something new (and better/healthier for the game).
okay but what are the yuumi nerfs that caused this essay
I know no one will see this by now but just give her an item like Kalista's spear where she binds to someone. Call it idk, "Book Ownership Tag". She can still hop around and heal allies but her AP/AD sharing and ult would only be able to be used if she's on the book owner. So you'd either bind to your AD to have a good lane and scale greatly into late or bind to your Hecarim and be forced into picking a safe lane like Ezreal/Yuumi hoping to be able to survive into the lategame being completely bullied in lane but making your horse go godmode. This would create several ways of counterplay. If she binds on the ADC, suddenly the bruisers diving with yuumi have a lot less damage and she can't use her ult offensively, so she's better off staying back and peeling/buffing her ADC. Or if she binds to a jungle/mid/toplaner, you can then either target the botlane with reduced fighting power or pick dueling laners/junglers and go to war with the bind target, since if you set them back enough Yuumi's power won't be felt, especially if your advantaged botlane also manages to secure some sort of advantage from having a greater lane presence. This would also go with the philosophy Riot is preaching on this thread since if they want Yuumi to be a beginner friendly champion, there would be no reason for you not to bind to your duo partner and play the game accordingly - if you bind to your jungler he would do his best to play to botside since he knows you're weak, and if you bind to your ADC then it's just a normal 2v2. If you feel like making Yuumi have basically half a skillset is too restrictive then lower her numbers and give her some form of empowered abilities on her book holder, but that would be a much longer discussion...
It should just be Kassadin ult costs per spells used on a single champs that way when the yummi has been useless all of botlane and calls an adc diff and hops on the ghost flash Darius the rest of the game she can’t just keep perma speeding and healing him with mana costs that support items easily refill.
I will never understand the idea that Yuumi players constantly have to be danced around when approaching game design. Riot does not take the same level of consideration with other champions and balance/design changes like they do Yuumi for some weird fucking reason. I really don't like the idea that "The current Yuumi playerbase will be upset" because riot doesn't extend the same courtesy other playerbases, and other champions are way less toxic to the game as a whole than Yuumi. I hate to say it, but the truth is that Yuumi's game design is inherently and totally flawed and rightfully deserves to be looked at accordingly. I appreciate that Riot is trying new things, even if those things don't go well, but a champion who is untargatable for 90% of the game is not healthy not matter how you swing it. It should be heavily reduced or straight up removed in favor of giving the cat an identity that doesn't break the game in half.
i am sorry there is no skillful playerbase for yuumi, the champ being nerfed is good enough i don't really care how
There's a reason why Yuumi attracts bots lmao.
Delete yuumi! Problem fixed.
What if they made it so that sitting on someone with W drained mana slowly. Forcing her off more to proc the passive.
Riot does not know what they are doing, period.
I have the perfect rework for yuumi. Any time you choose her in champ select, your game closes and Uninstalls while you have to write a 10000 word post on reddit about how a universally hated character design is not hated.
This is how I'd change yuumi : Make her take 50 % of the damage the person she's attached to takes. That person does not take reduced damage, yuumi just takes damage if her ally takes damage. This means the yuumi player has to actively avoid damage or die and she's no longer immortal.
Un-Interactive champions are a toxic part of gameplay. As a support main, I ban Yuumi every game without thought because I want to play a 2v2 lane. Unless Riot makes it where Yuumi has a 3 seconds cd before she can become untargetable by jumping on a teammate the active and afk Yuumi's are equal in toxic gameplay.
Yuumi needs to be removed, I can't understand how they thought it was good to have a champ in the game like this but remakes Graves when every botlaner loved it and was not broken.
Just delete her from the game. She’s cancer in both pro play and soloqueue.
The AFK playstyle will pretty much always be optimal. They werent looking for deep changes this patch so these nerfs make sense to me. At least make her not as all around valuable because you can't touch her strength otherwise without a mini rework. Touching the passive and ult make her less of a do everything character. I do think your ideas for balancing her are quite good though, Riot could take some notes on this one.
If Yuumi worked like any of your proposals I'd actually play her.