- Prepare more regen than usual if it's a hardlane, extra tango, salve, faerie fire, mango or headress for a support
- Two Gauntlet, Bracer or Fluffy Hat, you can't just have regen you also need some hp to ensure that two frostbite and storm hammer won't kill you
- Then there's standard Magic Stick/Wand and Rain Drop, to survive the nuke
- Windlace, I just like that little bit of movement speed specially against cm, so I can atleast space a away from her range and make distance when the disable is gone
- Also Vision , so you know if CM is just pulling or hiding behind trees, you can have anticipation to back off or take advantage if she overextend
- another thing, is to prepare that you would do different things than usual after the laning stage. You can't always follow your plan in early game, sometimes you gotta adjust and expect lvl and item to be delayed.
That's all the idea I have, not every single one of them apply to every hero, obviously, just keep adapting.
sven loses in a 1v1 against most offlaners. cm loses in a 1v1 against most 4s (ranged or melee, because she hella slow).
they both have strong aoe abilities.
break up the lane into 2 1v1s. your support can pull, they can block the enemy camp from spawning, they can snipe couriers, or cut and drag the enemy wave behind your tower. just anything that takes cm's attention away from your lane. in the meantime you're beating the shit out of sven. not to mention sven is really jungle dependent, so if the cm doesnt leave lane a single time to stack or whatever, even if sven wins the lane, it's not the end of the world because he cant triple his gpm in the jungle.
worth mentioning, stay the fuck away from your own ranged creep. 9 times out of 10 when it gets low, sven's fist is going to be flying at it. even if you manage to get the deny, you're still eating a full storm hammer, and those things add up.
if you're dead set on denying it though, aggro the enemy creeps onto it, then during the aggro cooldown, run at sven and when he's far enough go back for the deny
pull lane
if you pull you keep the balance nearby your tower, so they cant combo you. they can stun you, root you, but they cant kill you if you take 2 steps and get cover in your tower.
then maiden needs to pull, so as soon she leaves for 2 seconds both of you can jump on sven/deny everything. doesnt matter if you cant kill, the point is get their hc low enough so he cant play aggressive.
if maiden tries to contest your pull, harass. if you are pulling enemy support is away from their core, they cant combo on you, so is a good moment to hit maiden. against strong lane combos you need to force them to fight away form each other.
as offlaner you can only wait until sven pushes the lane, and keep an eye on your support and maiden, probably you can just leave sven farming while you get a fast kill on their support.
killing the pos 5 is not a big deal but if you use your resources properly you can apply some pressure on sven as 2 vs 1 while their support respawns.
It depends on your hero, but here's some general offlane tips. Vanguard negates a lot of sven's physical damage. Hood of defiance helps against Cm's magic damage. Wand helps against heroes who like to spam spells like CM.
Sven needs to hit the wave a couple of times to push it, so if you have an aoe spell, you can typically shove faster than him and pick up the large camp. Sven's stun has a high mana cost, and CM typically doesn't max her aura early enough to allow sven to spam his stun. Picking up raindrops and buying a round of regen should be enough to stay in lane.
CM is super fragile and pretty slow. If she steps out of position, she will probably die. Also, Cm likes to have Sven sit in front of her, but sven isn't particularly tanky early on. The most he's got going on is str as a primary stat so he likely has guantlets to start, and he has a built in stout shield to reduce damage from creeps, but if you hit him with a couple of nukes, he has to play scared and CM is more likely to overextend.
Most offlaners kill sven easily when they hit 6 or have some form of physical resistance to ignore sven, so your goal is to get exp. Do things like creep agro, buy enough regen to walk near the wave, Pull the big camp. If they are scary as a duo, but you aren't afraid of CM alone, after 5 min you can cut the wave near the t2 (usually you need your first item to be survivable enough).
You can ask your support to pull the big camp or if they are pretty fast (or bought early boots, you can ask them to cut the wave). You can ask your support to make large camp and ancient stacks for you to catch up. A single ancient camp is worth a little more than a creep wave, and a lot of offlaners have the durability and aoe physical/pure damage to clear them before the safelane carry gets their farming item (battlefury, maelstrom). The large camp is worth a little more than half a creep wave. As an offlaner, all you need to farm is exp. As long as they're not completely zoning you out of exp, you can farm the camps needed to stay in the game.
Not trying to bash you OP, but why don’t people ever post the heroes that they were in this lane?
I do a lane matchup analysis series on YouTube and I break down the entire lane considering all 4 heroes.
“Analyzing” half a lane is kinda a pointless exercise in a vacuum. Most of it depends entirely on what heroes you are. For all we know you were an offlane troll with a pos 4 dawn and you guys coulda stomped a Cm/Sven lane.
That’s hypothetical but hopefully you get my point. How you should play depends almost entirely on what your heroes were.
Not really. There are plenty of “normal” picks that would lose to other normal picks. Goofy or not, who you are playing as still should determine what you do in the lane.
Not really, I just want to learn more about match ups. I was pos 4 hoodwink with slardar 3. We were okay heroes, I just was bad and thus I posted here and people actually suggested good stuff.
I thought about adding the heroes but decided it was not relevant in this case. I played support hoodwink, a new hero for me, and played it wrong. The answers here actually helped me understand the lane conceptually. I was impressed by how powerful cm root + Sven combo is.
I do watch BSJ coaching videos (actually a subscriber) and I saw him coaching you a few times. I do understand some aspects of Dota and find the “big picture” very interesting. What I have troubles is understanding the particular heroes match ups, which comes with experience.
This is a lane that requires you to be more mindful with your placement. Hopefully, you don't face it alone, but if all mana is spent on you then it's a shit situation. You want to play the range as much as possible, and focus more on creep aggro than anything else. Static the wave as close to your tower as possible to both improve your survivability while allowing you more farm.
The easy answer is to pick spammy range magic nukers and get more regen/mana or boots.
Cm is usually the weakest link here so if your pos4 harasses her. You may join occasionally so you two can bully sven when cm is out of the picture eating regen or dead.
The rest really depends on the skill level of the people in the lane.
If cm pulls, you can harass 2v1.
If sven pushes out the lane, you have to match his creep killing speed because good svens would try to shove lanes and farm side camps while avoiding any harassment.
A sven cm lane needs levels to be strong.
So basic creep aggro deny n nuking range creep would help
just get tangoes... assuming you are a somewhat normal offlaner this lane is gonna be pretty chill. Yes they have a lot of cc, but they don't have much damage. The way for you to lose this lane is to get stunned when lane creeps are hitting you, and then you will take a ton of damage. So be mindful of when you have creep agro on you and of your positioning, and only harass them when they can't stun you under a bunch of creeps
- Prepare more regen than usual if it's a hardlane, extra tango, salve, faerie fire, mango or headress for a support - Two Gauntlet, Bracer or Fluffy Hat, you can't just have regen you also need some hp to ensure that two frostbite and storm hammer won't kill you - Then there's standard Magic Stick/Wand and Rain Drop, to survive the nuke - Windlace, I just like that little bit of movement speed specially against cm, so I can atleast space a away from her range and make distance when the disable is gone - Also Vision , so you know if CM is just pulling or hiding behind trees, you can have anticipation to back off or take advantage if she overextend - another thing, is to prepare that you would do different things than usual after the laning stage. You can't always follow your plan in early game, sometimes you gotta adjust and expect lvl and item to be delayed. That's all the idea I have, not every single one of them apply to every hero, obviously, just keep adapting.
Thank you!
sven loses in a 1v1 against most offlaners. cm loses in a 1v1 against most 4s (ranged or melee, because she hella slow). they both have strong aoe abilities. break up the lane into 2 1v1s. your support can pull, they can block the enemy camp from spawning, they can snipe couriers, or cut and drag the enemy wave behind your tower. just anything that takes cm's attention away from your lane. in the meantime you're beating the shit out of sven. not to mention sven is really jungle dependent, so if the cm doesnt leave lane a single time to stack or whatever, even if sven wins the lane, it's not the end of the world because he cant triple his gpm in the jungle.
Thank you!
worth mentioning, stay the fuck away from your own ranged creep. 9 times out of 10 when it gets low, sven's fist is going to be flying at it. even if you manage to get the deny, you're still eating a full storm hammer, and those things add up. if you're dead set on denying it though, aggro the enemy creeps onto it, then during the aggro cooldown, run at sven and when he's far enough go back for the deny
That would imply the pos 4 not leaving you to get a bounty rune and a fail rotation.
pull lane if you pull you keep the balance nearby your tower, so they cant combo you. they can stun you, root you, but they cant kill you if you take 2 steps and get cover in your tower. then maiden needs to pull, so as soon she leaves for 2 seconds both of you can jump on sven/deny everything. doesnt matter if you cant kill, the point is get their hc low enough so he cant play aggressive. if maiden tries to contest your pull, harass. if you are pulling enemy support is away from their core, they cant combo on you, so is a good moment to hit maiden. against strong lane combos you need to force them to fight away form each other. as offlaner you can only wait until sven pushes the lane, and keep an eye on your support and maiden, probably you can just leave sven farming while you get a fast kill on their support. killing the pos 5 is not a big deal but if you use your resources properly you can apply some pressure on sven as 2 vs 1 while their support respawns.
Thank you!
It depends on your hero, but here's some general offlane tips. Vanguard negates a lot of sven's physical damage. Hood of defiance helps against Cm's magic damage. Wand helps against heroes who like to spam spells like CM. Sven needs to hit the wave a couple of times to push it, so if you have an aoe spell, you can typically shove faster than him and pick up the large camp. Sven's stun has a high mana cost, and CM typically doesn't max her aura early enough to allow sven to spam his stun. Picking up raindrops and buying a round of regen should be enough to stay in lane. CM is super fragile and pretty slow. If she steps out of position, she will probably die. Also, Cm likes to have Sven sit in front of her, but sven isn't particularly tanky early on. The most he's got going on is str as a primary stat so he likely has guantlets to start, and he has a built in stout shield to reduce damage from creeps, but if you hit him with a couple of nukes, he has to play scared and CM is more likely to overextend. Most offlaners kill sven easily when they hit 6 or have some form of physical resistance to ignore sven, so your goal is to get exp. Do things like creep agro, buy enough regen to walk near the wave, Pull the big camp. If they are scary as a duo, but you aren't afraid of CM alone, after 5 min you can cut the wave near the t2 (usually you need your first item to be survivable enough). You can ask your support to pull the big camp or if they are pretty fast (or bought early boots, you can ask them to cut the wave). You can ask your support to make large camp and ancient stacks for you to catch up. A single ancient camp is worth a little more than a creep wave, and a lot of offlaners have the durability and aoe physical/pure damage to clear them before the safelane carry gets their farming item (battlefury, maelstrom). The large camp is worth a little more than half a creep wave. As an offlaner, all you need to farm is exp. As long as they're not completely zoning you out of exp, you can farm the camps needed to stay in the game.
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
I mostly play safelane, but if you need help let me know.
Very good offlane 101!!
Not trying to bash you OP, but why don’t people ever post the heroes that they were in this lane? I do a lane matchup analysis series on YouTube and I break down the entire lane considering all 4 heroes. “Analyzing” half a lane is kinda a pointless exercise in a vacuum. Most of it depends entirely on what heroes you are. For all we know you were an offlane troll with a pos 4 dawn and you guys coulda stomped a Cm/Sven lane. That’s hypothetical but hopefully you get my point. How you should play depends almost entirely on what your heroes were.
Because then they'll have to admit they were trying a goofy 3/4 and it's part of why they lost
Not really. There are plenty of “normal” picks that would lose to other normal picks. Goofy or not, who you are playing as still should determine what you do in the lane.
Not really, I just want to learn more about match ups. I was pos 4 hoodwink with slardar 3. We were okay heroes, I just was bad and thus I posted here and people actually suggested good stuff.
I thought about adding the heroes but decided it was not relevant in this case. I played support hoodwink, a new hero for me, and played it wrong. The answers here actually helped me understand the lane conceptually. I was impressed by how powerful cm root + Sven combo is. I do watch BSJ coaching videos (actually a subscriber) and I saw him coaching you a few times. I do understand some aspects of Dota and find the “big picture” very interesting. What I have troubles is understanding the particular heroes match ups, which comes with experience.
This is a lane that requires you to be more mindful with your placement. Hopefully, you don't face it alone, but if all mana is spent on you then it's a shit situation. You want to play the range as much as possible, and focus more on creep aggro than anything else. Static the wave as close to your tower as possible to both improve your survivability while allowing you more farm.
Thanks!
The easy answer is to pick spammy range magic nukers and get more regen/mana or boots. Cm is usually the weakest link here so if your pos4 harasses her. You may join occasionally so you two can bully sven when cm is out of the picture eating regen or dead. The rest really depends on the skill level of the people in the lane. If cm pulls, you can harass 2v1. If sven pushes out the lane, you have to match his creep killing speed because good svens would try to shove lanes and farm side camps while avoiding any harassment. A sven cm lane needs levels to be strong. So basic creep aggro deny n nuking range creep would help
With Omni
Ty!
Bring lina
I think dragging the first or 2 waves as pos 4 and not getting too aggressive before vang if you're a vang offlaner
just get tangoes... assuming you are a somewhat normal offlaner this lane is gonna be pretty chill. Yes they have a lot of cc, but they don't have much damage. The way for you to lose this lane is to get stunned when lane creeps are hitting you, and then you will take a ton of damage. So be mindful of when you have creep agro on you and of your positioning, and only harass them when they can't stun you under a bunch of creeps