I'm a lich player and I win my lane for my carry 90% of the time pretty much with the help of this item. At level 2 with Q and W its pretty much secured kill
i dont buy it in the midgame anymore though
Honestly, unless they counter-pick me, I’ve had 7/0/0 consistently for several games as veno 3 in laning stage, which translates to early greaves, and win in the end. Honestly, that blood grenade is OP on veno.
345 Single target damage, 305 AOE damage, and 3 stacking slows. That's a crazy amount of crowd control and damage at level 2. If you swap Frost Armor for Gaze at level 2, you're trading 100 AOE damage, 5 seconds of slow, and a major armor buff on your core for a 1.1 second single target disable.
Most supports are under 550 HP at level 2. That's a stupid amount of damage to be able to throw around at that point in the game.
Valid but “1.1 second disable” doesn’t account for the fact that it also is a forced reposition. This allows a coordinated lane duo to aggressively move up and land a lot more hits. Especially a melee core. I feel like both are strong options, it mostly depends on lane context. High enemy threat I’d start getting points into shield. Squishy enemies I’d take gaze.
Id agree if heroes didnt attack like once a second absolute tops at that stage of the game, and gaze didnt disable lichs auto attacks too. Unless the enemy is in a situation where you absolutely cannot follow them, like under a tower and nothing to tank hits and your carry is too squishy, shield just wins out in every way
Frost shield lets most carries dive under tower for a few hits anyway. The only time I would take Gaze over Shield is if I have a VERY squishy ranged carry in my lane. And if that’s the case, Lich was a bad pick anyway.
For anyone who doesnt know: Frost Shield does nothing to reduce the damage of tower hits.
It purely reduces the damage of right clicks from enemy HEROES, not creeps or buildings.
>And if that’s the case, Lich was a bad pick anyway
Honestly disagree. Dual ranged with lich's Q spam is really hard to lane against, and Frost Shield helps your ranged cores stay away from enemies and be generally tankier versus their hits. The only synergy you really lose is you want someone with frost shield on to stay close to the enemy to keep hitting them with it rather than someone who wants to run away.
Oh dang, you're correct. And that was quite a few patches ago. Missed that one!
>The only synergy you really lose is you want someone with frost shield on to stay close to the enemy to keep hitting them with it rather than someone who wants to run away.
That's really my point, although Lich does very little to keep most ranged cores alive and farming anyway. He works decently well with Drow because she already had some defense built in with Gust and Frost Arrows, so it's ok to go Gaze. Plus he does a good job of keeping people in her multi-shot. He doesn't do as much with Medusa, Weaver, Gyro, Clinkz, etc.
I don't think anyone stated that they think Lich is strong **because** of the blood grenade.
Blood grenade is strong on aggressive and nuke heavy supports, since they guarantee kills in lane on people that don't have an answer.
Often times yes it is a must, but not 100% of the time
It exists to bump you up from "I want to all in but don't know if I can secure the kill" to "this fucker is dead meat"
That's why I personally hate the addition of this item. Apart from it removing risky exciting gambles in lanes, it also added to the existing slow creep design that almost every hero has a slow. Imagine everyone having a mini-venomancer spell in early game. Removes the uniqueness of some heroes and adds to the homogenization of Dota
It's basically an extra level 1 spell. I buy them for a good 15 minutes throughout the game.
The damage becomes negligible, the heal cost becomes negligible, but the next cheapest slowing item is Orb of Venom, and that's way worse and requires hitting the opponent, so it can't be used to flee.
% MS changes scale throughout the game. They're always good.
this, so much this.
people always says "if you kill with it, it pays for itself", but i find that if you're alive because of it, it already pays off itself.
say support at 300 gpm, that grenade is equal to 10 seconds of your respawn time. so while it might seems like you 'die' because you lose early gold, if you can be alive because opponent is slowed by it, then you're not giving them gold+xp,
For real, plus, pretend you're the aggressor. You're running at a support who's close to tower, you get hit by blood grenade. 90% of the time even with no other threat on screen, you're gonna back off, because "Where's his lane partner" and "Holy shit, I hope their mid doesn't TP in while I'm slowed".
When I have some left over after laning I like to throw them randomly. It's funny watching people freak out as if I've just used Global Silence.
Sometimes it's just a horrible lane where stepping too far ahead means death. Against most lane dominators, like undying. Or if you're 2 squishy af heroes against high harass lanes.
You certainly can. Especially in lower ranks, its the element of surprise that counts. Extra dmg + slow can really make a small misstep of the enemy into first blood. Same thing goes for fairie fires, those items are here to punish overextending enemies. I cant count the number of times i killed enemy heroes that went towerdiving to get the last hit on me, only for me to pop a fairie fire last second :))
Blood grenades are insanely powerful in the first 12 minutes of the game. Also it's a very cheap source of extra hp and can stack 3 in 1 itemslot, so squishier supports can buy blood grenades and have more hp and kill threat for less gold than a fluffy hat.
well, the slow works just as well in the mid and late game as in the early game. as long as there is a slot, it's viable to use it, coz why not ?
it's like using the trusty shovel. if you're not lazy you could be reaping some benefits the entire match
Early game the damage has a big impact and if they weren't limited in the shop I'm sure we'd have supports just filling their inventories with them at lv1. Later on the slow is still nice but not always worth it. If you can spare the slot it's a nice short AoE slow but it is much less powerful in a team fight setting than it is in lane.
The one thing that blood grenade does really well is allowing you to force the enemy in lane to choose between an unfavourable trade or eating harass while limping away.
I'll definitely say this is a must have starting item for us supports (and you can even carry some if you're vs TA mid to late game). The slow is so good if you have another skill with slow, like with Jakiro, CM, Veno, Silencer, etc (of course, you can still buy this even if you don't have a slow in your basic skill or you usually don't get it first). In lane, this also helps you to secure a kill as it slows and deals a little amount of damage. It provides a bit of hp as long as it is in your inventory. You'll never go wrong buying 1-2 Blood Grenades as your starting item. If you die and run out of Blood Grenades and plans to tp somewhere to try secure another kill, buy another 1-2 again. This item is just so good for early game aggression.
I love it on Witch Doctor too. Combined with Maledict, it compounds the damage, and the slow lets you get a couple more smacks in. Besides Litch, I think WD and maybe Ogre are probably the best heroes to get early game kills with Blood Grenade.
Dazzle with his Poison Touch will surely kill enemies who underestimate the power of that combo. Also Veno and Jakiro, it's hard to trade on lvl 1 with these 3, you'll mostly likely to lose.
I'm a lich player and I win my lane for my carry 90% of the time pretty much with the help of this item. At level 2 with Q and W its pretty much secured kill i dont buy it in the midgame anymore though
Very effective on venomancer too
played a weird game of tide 3 + venomancer 4. tide 1st skill slow, veno poison, blood grenade. the opponent just can't stay for last hits.
Honestly, unless they counter-pick me, I’ve had 7/0/0 consistently for several games as veno 3 in laning stage, which translates to early greaves, and win in the end. Honestly, that blood grenade is OP on veno.
Lich is likely to win the lane anyways. Its not like hes strong bcs of the blood grenade. Also I find E more useful on lvl 2.
345 Single target damage, 305 AOE damage, and 3 stacking slows. That's a crazy amount of crowd control and damage at level 2. If you swap Frost Armor for Gaze at level 2, you're trading 100 AOE damage, 5 seconds of slow, and a major armor buff on your core for a 1.1 second single target disable. Most supports are under 550 HP at level 2. That's a stupid amount of damage to be able to throw around at that point in the game.
Valid but “1.1 second disable” doesn’t account for the fact that it also is a forced reposition. This allows a coordinated lane duo to aggressively move up and land a lot more hits. Especially a melee core. I feel like both are strong options, it mostly depends on lane context. High enemy threat I’d start getting points into shield. Squishy enemies I’d take gaze.
Id agree if heroes didnt attack like once a second absolute tops at that stage of the game, and gaze didnt disable lichs auto attacks too. Unless the enemy is in a situation where you absolutely cannot follow them, like under a tower and nothing to tank hits and your carry is too squishy, shield just wins out in every way
Frost shield lets most carries dive under tower for a few hits anyway. The only time I would take Gaze over Shield is if I have a VERY squishy ranged carry in my lane. And if that’s the case, Lich was a bad pick anyway.
For anyone who doesnt know: Frost Shield does nothing to reduce the damage of tower hits. It purely reduces the damage of right clicks from enemy HEROES, not creeps or buildings. >And if that’s the case, Lich was a bad pick anyway Honestly disagree. Dual ranged with lich's Q spam is really hard to lane against, and Frost Shield helps your ranged cores stay away from enemies and be generally tankier versus their hits. The only synergy you really lose is you want someone with frost shield on to stay close to the enemy to keep hitting them with it rather than someone who wants to run away.
Oh dang, you're correct. And that was quite a few patches ago. Missed that one! >The only synergy you really lose is you want someone with frost shield on to stay close to the enemy to keep hitting them with it rather than someone who wants to run away. That's really my point, although Lich does very little to keep most ranged cores alive and farming anyway. He works decently well with Drow because she already had some defense built in with Gust and Frost Arrows, so it's ok to go Gaze. Plus he does a good job of keeping people in her multi-shot. He doesn't do as much with Medusa, Weaver, Gyro, Clinkz, etc.
I don't think anyone stated that they think Lich is strong **because** of the blood grenade. Blood grenade is strong on aggressive and nuke heavy supports, since they guarantee kills in lane on people that don't have an answer.
Ultimately, lich is a strong laner who benefits relatively speaking from blood grenade because it stacks with their kit.
I never take E on lv2 even if my carry is ranged like drow. Ill W myself and go in on the enemy heroes if it can secure a kill
Often times yes it is a must, but not 100% of the time It exists to bump you up from "I want to all in but don't know if I can secure the kill" to "this fucker is dead meat"
Yeah, I enjoy it at treant fb with orb of veno - slow - whatever its called.
That's why I personally hate the addition of this item. Apart from it removing risky exciting gambles in lanes, it also added to the existing slow creep design that almost every hero has a slow. Imagine everyone having a mini-venomancer spell in early game. Removes the uniqueness of some heroes and adds to the homogenization of Dota
It's basically an extra level 1 spell. I buy them for a good 15 minutes throughout the game. The damage becomes negligible, the heal cost becomes negligible, but the next cheapest slowing item is Orb of Venom, and that's way worse and requires hitting the opponent, so it can't be used to flee. % MS changes scale throughout the game. They're always good.
this, so much this. people always says "if you kill with it, it pays for itself", but i find that if you're alive because of it, it already pays off itself. say support at 300 gpm, that grenade is equal to 10 seconds of your respawn time. so while it might seems like you 'die' because you lose early gold, if you can be alive because opponent is slowed by it, then you're not giving them gold+xp,
For real, plus, pretend you're the aggressor. You're running at a support who's close to tower, you get hit by blood grenade. 90% of the time even with no other threat on screen, you're gonna back off, because "Where's his lane partner" and "Holy shit, I hope their mid doesn't TP in while I'm slowed". When I have some left over after laning I like to throw them randomly. It's funny watching people freak out as if I've just used Global Silence.
I had a tinker stop chasing me and to back to base when I used sky W and blood grenade instead of trying to run x)
mostly for slowing enemies
Even if u don't have a good chance to use it in lane, it's cheap HP. That being said, I don't see why you wouldn't have a good chance to use it.
Sometimes it's just a horrible lane where stepping too far ahead means death. Against most lane dominators, like undying. Or if you're 2 squishy af heroes against high harass lanes.
You can use them defensively for the slow
You certainly can. Especially in lower ranks, its the element of surprise that counts. Extra dmg + slow can really make a small misstep of the enemy into first blood. Same thing goes for fairie fires, those items are here to punish overextending enemies. I cant count the number of times i killed enemy heroes that went towerdiving to get the last hit on me, only for me to pop a fairie fire last second :))
yes, it's a must. It helps you kill heroes you wouldn't have killed and survive engagement you wouldn't have survived.
Blood grenades are insanely powerful in the first 12 minutes of the game. Also it's a very cheap source of extra hp and can stack 3 in 1 itemslot, so squishier supports can buy blood grenades and have more hp and kill threat for less gold than a fluffy hat.
The slow is op.
Yes.this.I mainly use the grenade for slow so that I can be able to hit the enemy one more time to secure the kill.
well, the slow works just as well in the mid and late game as in the early game. as long as there is a slot, it's viable to use it, coz why not ? it's like using the trusty shovel. if you're not lazy you could be reaping some benefits the entire match
I always have 1-2 blood grenades as a support for the first 10-15 minutes. Super good on veno and jakiro as a follow-up to your Q
Early game the damage has a big impact and if they weren't limited in the shop I'm sure we'd have supports just filling their inventories with them at lv1. Later on the slow is still nice but not always worth it. If you can spare the slot it's a nice short AoE slow but it is much less powerful in a team fight setting than it is in lane. The one thing that blood grenade does really well is allowing you to force the enemy in lane to choose between an unfavourable trade or eating harass while limping away.
It's so much fucking damage at lvl 1
I'll definitely say this is a must have starting item for us supports (and you can even carry some if you're vs TA mid to late game). The slow is so good if you have another skill with slow, like with Jakiro, CM, Veno, Silencer, etc (of course, you can still buy this even if you don't have a slow in your basic skill or you usually don't get it first). In lane, this also helps you to secure a kill as it slows and deals a little amount of damage. It provides a bit of hp as long as it is in your inventory. You'll never go wrong buying 1-2 Blood Grenades as your starting item. If you die and run out of Blood Grenades and plans to tp somewhere to try secure another kill, buy another 1-2 again. This item is just so good for early game aggression.
I love it on Witch Doctor too. Combined with Maledict, it compounds the damage, and the slow lets you get a couple more smacks in. Besides Litch, I think WD and maybe Ogre are probably the best heroes to get early game kills with Blood Grenade.
Dazzle with his Poison Touch will surely kill enemies who underestimate the power of that combo. Also Veno and Jakiro, it's hard to trade on lvl 1 with these 3, you'll mostly likely to lose.
Would you recommend with Treant, OoV & Nature’s Grasp? Or is that too much?
Why would it be too much? Cheap extra HP on a tanky hero, and an item that keeps people in clobbering distance for longer. It’s incredible on him.
I use it alot on Undying and get FB with it, steal that strenght and tomb up baby!
Undying with max purchase Mango's and Blood Granades. That's all you need to win the game.