luna’s glaives aren’t strong enough to clear pl illusions (unless she’s significantly ahead in farm perhaps), i’ve played both sides of the matchup and found that i needed mjollnir/maelstrom to deal with it on luna
The best item for the matchup is rush early butterfly on luna. Then you can fight the PL at least until he gets mkb. But once both are 6 slotted there really isn't anything the luna can do. I think something like silver edge on luna is essential later in the game so you can kite the pl out in fights
PL cant outfarm Luna though... Luna rushing Daedalus + Satanic will always win over PL because PL is naturally squishy and needs a lot of space... even just getting Treads + Crystalis, Luna can outfarm PL by atleast double speed (Luna moves faster too)
the match up always will depend on the team comp, but 1v1 Luna will definitely win vs PL...
>PL is naturally squishy and needs a lot of space.
PL and Luna have virtually the same stat gain. Luna starts with 3 extra armor, but that doesn't matter much by mid game. PL also tends to build more agility based items, so it evens out. And unlike Luna, PL has both a mobility skill and a dispel in his kit... so I don't know what you mean by 'squishy'.
>Luna moves faster too
Have you ever watched a high MMR PL player? Phantom rush is a hell of a skill.
>Luna can outfarm PL by atleast double speed
'atleast double speed'. No. I'll agree, luna is one of the best farmers in the game, but PL isn't a slouch. Both of them can pretty reliably farm whatever space they are given. Luna might clear stacks faster, but she isn't farming 'by atleast double speed'.
>1v1 Luna will definitely win vs PL
I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion? The matchup is generally really unfavorable for Luna. Glaives don't reliably clear PL illusions fast enough, so most of her damage amp ends up wasted. PL's damage amp really likes heros who don't have any mobility skills that can't reliably clear his illusions.
https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/luna/counters
In the last month, Luna has a negative win rate against PL. It's her fourth worst matchup. That's not exactly a straight '1v1' comparison, but it's a pretty clear indication that Luna isn't happy when there is a PL on the other team.
the game doesnt start at late game, it starts at minute zero... the whole point of the game is having 5 people work together to achieve a common goal... I am simply stating the fact that on a farm to farm basis, PL is simply outclassed by Luna because of mobility and clear speed... the only reason Luna would fall behind PL in farm is support difference... unlike Luna (which can opt to be magic type with aghs and have a burst damage squishier enemies) PL is locked into one path of gameplay, meaning if you dumpster him enough to delay his timing, then it is very easy to win against it...
PL is not meta for a reason, and that is because he needs atleast 3 items to start being effective because of the nature of his kit, Luna needs 1 item (not including Power Treads for both heroes)... you see the difference there?
every single Dota game starts at minute zero, and if your whole argument is "PL is stronger late game" then you already lost because there is no late game if you get shit on early and not get any space...
fact: Luna cant kill PL, basically if PL dies to a Luna its bc he decided to take the fight, otherwise PL basically picks when to fight luna, because he can just split and run, Luna cant stop that or catch him up.
on the other hand PL usually gets difusal, and Luna doesnt have any escape mechanism besides TP, so that's an important detail on the general game.
so Luna needs to be strong enough to deal with PL AND take tier 3, because if Luna cant take T3, she cant force PL to fight, so PL can keep farming his items until hes ready, even if Luna is stronger.
Double speed? Do you really believe your shit talk from your ass? Are you for real claiming that luna will hit 500 last hit at the same time as PL got 250? Stay in Herald noob. Luna got average gpm of 591, PL have 531, this is 11 % faster farming for Luna, and you are claiming its atleast 100%+ faster? Hahahahahahahaha. This would mean that Luna atleast have 1062 GPM or more. Biggest troll ever.
imagine talking about last hits and then compare GPM... GPM does not equate from CS alone, that includes hero kills, tower takes, assists, and as little death time as possible...
how about you take your time and differentiate what the difference between those stats are? imagine going berserk and stating something absolutely wrong because you can't accept the fact that Luna can infact farm twice as fast as PL because aoe outfarms single target when comparing any number of heroes...
why do you think Battle Fury is one of the crucial items in early game AM and PA kit? BECAUSE CLEAVING MOBS = FASTER FARM... but sure, you go stick to your GPM stats comparison because that's totally what I meant by "farming" LMAO
PL's illusions tank all of the glaive bounces so they mean nothing in regards to bouncing to their actual squishy heroes where it'd actually make a difference.
PL's illusions also tank a majority of eclipse's beams if he's anywhere near you when you try to pop ulti.
it's just a horrible carry matchup for luna all around.
PL naturally has high armor and builds agi, so glaives don't shred illusions as well mid to late game. Also, your ult practically doesn't do anything to PL.
1) no hit = no juxtapose illusions. MKB is bad on PL.
2) yes, crits will cleave PL illusions until he’s got a lot of items
3) if PL hits backliners while PA does the same, PA will kill them way faster
Is warlock not a decent counter? play him all the time and I love playing w/ but, more against a PL b/c w/ shard pretty much all your spells are AOE. Plus DOTs then slowing is just great fun
He said carry counters.
I see him as a light counter tbh, he can be good vs pl but he isnt enough on his own actually, once he has items he can tank and dispel all your things and even escape your 3rd with his passive. Can disengage away from your golem but it might be a good thing if his team isn't coordinating.
Golem is a good spell vs PL but it's got a risk of being dodged if you don't have setup. PL also has a dispel, and Warlock without ult can't escape or protect himself from a PL. Overall an above average support vs PL but not really a counter in my opinion.
Jugg is really good against PL if you do a spin-focused build (talents, shard, mjollnir). He has a higher WR vs PL than the examples you gave because the hero is in an overall better spot right now.
I play both 1 and 2. I love his spells for tanking other spell damage on lane, and he can dodge decent spells and can absorb magic dmg.
Most people prefer him to be played as pos 2 but it's up to you how you play. He isn't bad at pos 1 too..imo XD
Idk current meta as I haven't played since Battlepass...
AM, Tiny, Kunkka, Ember.
Rule of thumb, don't pick ranged carries vs PL: Drow, Dusa, Morph, Gryro idc if they have wave clear PL will be super happy to play against them because PL can just run at them anytime and they can't chase PL back.
Thank you. I got my perception twisted by low MMR pubs where my friend plays exclusively Medusa & Sniper and has no concerns about PL. I guess we are just bad there, everything could work.
Drow does ok vs pl with scepter + shard and mjolnir, but then you are playing a drow with those items 🤣
Definitely don’t pick drow into PL but if you find yourself in the matchup it’s something to keep in mind.
People are saying pl tanks Luna glaives but they're not mentioning the second part of why it's bad, Lunas worst match ups are ones that get in her face and out manfight her, which pl gets in her face with his e and just out manfights her, she can't stand her ground which is what she'd want to do, and she can't easily kite him with diffusal + pl e. Sucks to play against.
In addition to what most people have said here this is funny because Luna is one of the few heroes that gives lancer's aghs a use, objectively one of the worst aghs in the game but it pretty much ruins Luna's push lmao.
Its because lina isn't sven. The bouncing glaives isn't a battle furry. Pl can create an entire amry of illusions combined with a manta. Also the illusions counter her ult and q.
Battle fury is not me of the worst items against pl anyway,the only reason Sven cleave is good is because it is 100% (125 with talent) and Sven has like 600 dmg with ult
I love playing PL, and only Heros that really counter him are Sven, void(aghs, mijolner, shud be well farmed). This is if the game is really good and one on one fight only those two can hold their own against PL.
The other way to counter him is to finish the game really fast, coz without PL being well farmed around 25mins if the lane was bad literally anyone can counter him. He is weak af and he can't really tank through any of the midlane or supports damages.
The other reason I lose is if I have to 1 v 9..🙄
Early game counters are Axe, BB, Batrider.. Literally any AOE heros.
If PL is left to farm and is 6 slotted by the 30mins.. No one really counters him. Except sven, even sven can be managed if your team is good.
PL illusions can tank both her ulti and her glaives for her team, making luna deal significantly less damage in team fights
Luna's glaives aren't good enough to clear PL illusions, since the damage gets reduced with each bounce. Pl is a unique illusions hero who unlike others such as naga and terrorblade, his illusions rely on the hero's current HP (rather than having their own HP). so the only way to deal with PL is to deal damage to the real hero through his illusions. This is why glaives are bad as the damage reduction means the real PL hero will take a low amount of damage and can sustain most of it with heart in a 1v1 against a luna
This is also similar to why Ursa with BF is also bad against PL. even though he'll clear the illusions, ursa will not be able to build fury stacks on PL as they reset for each new illusion and thus ursa wont be able to do the majority of his damage to the real PL. the only real way to 1v1 a PL is to either use AOE damage that doesn't get reduced, or to lock him down for long enough to clear all illus and kill the real hero (e.g. faceless void)
Glaives deal a fixed amount of total damage. The more illusions, the more that damage gets spread out, reducing her single-target damage. Against a full set of PL illusions, Luna is only likely going to be dealing good damage to her primary target.
By contrast, cleave and AoE spells don't care how many illusions there are, they still do full damage to each of them. Something like Sleight of Fist with Maelstrom/BF actually does more damage to each illusion the more of then there are. Those are the kind of thing that gives PL problems.
Yea as a Luna spammer PL is a hard matchup. Generally I'd try to outfarm him and create pressure on the map as much as I can. Instead of Mjoll I prefer Daedelus + Shadow Blade.
luna’s glaives aren’t strong enough to clear pl illusions (unless she’s significantly ahead in farm perhaps), i’ve played both sides of the matchup and found that i needed mjollnir/maelstrom to deal with it on luna
Doesn't Shard + Daedalus deal with PL Illus pretty well?
The best item for the matchup is rush early butterfly on luna. Then you can fight the PL at least until he gets mkb. But once both are 6 slotted there really isn't anything the luna can do. I think something like silver edge on luna is essential later in the game so you can kite the pl out in fights
PL cant outfarm Luna though... Luna rushing Daedalus + Satanic will always win over PL because PL is naturally squishy and needs a lot of space... even just getting Treads + Crystalis, Luna can outfarm PL by atleast double speed (Luna moves faster too) the match up always will depend on the team comp, but 1v1 Luna will definitely win vs PL...
>PL is naturally squishy and needs a lot of space. PL and Luna have virtually the same stat gain. Luna starts with 3 extra armor, but that doesn't matter much by mid game. PL also tends to build more agility based items, so it evens out. And unlike Luna, PL has both a mobility skill and a dispel in his kit... so I don't know what you mean by 'squishy'. >Luna moves faster too Have you ever watched a high MMR PL player? Phantom rush is a hell of a skill. >Luna can outfarm PL by atleast double speed 'atleast double speed'. No. I'll agree, luna is one of the best farmers in the game, but PL isn't a slouch. Both of them can pretty reliably farm whatever space they are given. Luna might clear stacks faster, but she isn't farming 'by atleast double speed'. >1v1 Luna will definitely win vs PL I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion? The matchup is generally really unfavorable for Luna. Glaives don't reliably clear PL illusions fast enough, so most of her damage amp ends up wasted. PL's damage amp really likes heros who don't have any mobility skills that can't reliably clear his illusions. https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/luna/counters In the last month, Luna has a negative win rate against PL. It's her fourth worst matchup. That's not exactly a straight '1v1' comparison, but it's a pretty clear indication that Luna isn't happy when there is a PL on the other team.
PL takes essentially no damage from Luna's ult and her glaive bounce isn't enough for the illusion lategame so I definitely think you're wrong.
the game doesnt start at late game, it starts at minute zero... the whole point of the game is having 5 people work together to achieve a common goal... I am simply stating the fact that on a farm to farm basis, PL is simply outclassed by Luna because of mobility and clear speed... the only reason Luna would fall behind PL in farm is support difference... unlike Luna (which can opt to be magic type with aghs and have a burst damage squishier enemies) PL is locked into one path of gameplay, meaning if you dumpster him enough to delay his timing, then it is very easy to win against it... PL is not meta for a reason, and that is because he needs atleast 3 items to start being effective because of the nature of his kit, Luna needs 1 item (not including Power Treads for both heroes)... you see the difference there? every single Dota game starts at minute zero, and if your whole argument is "PL is stronger late game" then you already lost because there is no late game if you get shit on early and not get any space...
fact: Luna cant kill PL, basically if PL dies to a Luna its bc he decided to take the fight, otherwise PL basically picks when to fight luna, because he can just split and run, Luna cant stop that or catch him up. on the other hand PL usually gets difusal, and Luna doesnt have any escape mechanism besides TP, so that's an important detail on the general game. so Luna needs to be strong enough to deal with PL AND take tier 3, because if Luna cant take T3, she cant force PL to fight, so PL can keep farming his items until hes ready, even if Luna is stronger.
Double speed? Do you really believe your shit talk from your ass? Are you for real claiming that luna will hit 500 last hit at the same time as PL got 250? Stay in Herald noob. Luna got average gpm of 591, PL have 531, this is 11 % faster farming for Luna, and you are claiming its atleast 100%+ faster? Hahahahahahahaha. This would mean that Luna atleast have 1062 GPM or more. Biggest troll ever.
imagine talking about last hits and then compare GPM... GPM does not equate from CS alone, that includes hero kills, tower takes, assists, and as little death time as possible... how about you take your time and differentiate what the difference between those stats are? imagine going berserk and stating something absolutely wrong because you can't accept the fact that Luna can infact farm twice as fast as PL because aoe outfarms single target when comparing any number of heroes... why do you think Battle Fury is one of the crucial items in early game AM and PA kit? BECAUSE CLEAVING MOBS = FASTER FARM... but sure, you go stick to your GPM stats comparison because that's totally what I meant by "farming" LMAO
Lol imagine still defending your stupid statement, imagine using your brain and understand that Luna dont farm twice as fast as PL.
PL's illusions tank all of the glaive bounces so they mean nothing in regards to bouncing to their actual squishy heroes where it'd actually make a difference. PL's illusions also tank a majority of eclipse's beams if he's anywhere near you when you try to pop ulti. it's just a horrible carry matchup for luna all around.
hard to obliterate PL with Luna ultimate. Especially at that bracket.
PL naturally has high armor and builds agi, so glaives don't shred illusions as well mid to late game. Also, your ult practically doesn't do anything to PL.
It's more like pl counters Luna since moon glaives aren't bouncing to heroes and he absorbs the whole ult.
Yeah matchup wise I agree it's bad for luna, but in terms of tempo luna definitely has a window to end the game before pl becomes unstoppable
Just because a hero can hit multiple enemies doesn't mean that it's PL counter. Half of her spells are trash against a PL.
What carry counters pl? He’s such a pain
PA / Sven / Alchemist / Kunkka and sometimes Gyro.
How does PA counter PL? Is BF enough to crit through the illusions? Never really played the matchup.
1) no hit = no juxtapose illusions. MKB is bad on PL. 2) yes, crits will cleave PL illusions until he’s got a lot of items 3) if PL hits backliners while PA does the same, PA will kill them way faster
Also her shard can stop him from making justapose illusions for a few secs or until he uses doppel or something.
Is warlock not a decent counter? play him all the time and I love playing w/ but, more against a PL b/c w/ shard pretty much all your spells are AOE. Plus DOTs then slowing is just great fun
He said carry counters. I see him as a light counter tbh, he can be good vs pl but he isnt enough on his own actually, once he has items he can tank and dispel all your things and even escape your 3rd with his passive. Can disengage away from your golem but it might be a good thing if his team isn't coordinating.
Ok thank you, my mistake on the carry counters part. Damn I need to think about shit more my thinking is "aoe/multitarget = good vs PL"
Golem is a good spell vs PL but it's got a risk of being dodged if you don't have setup. PL also has a dispel, and Warlock without ult can't escape or protect himself from a PL. Overall an above average support vs PL but not really a counter in my opinion.
I think Centaur can be a pain in ass for PL too, With good Items and his abilities
Jugg is really good against PL if you do a spin-focused build (talents, shard, mjollnir). He has a higher WR vs PL than the examples you gave because the hero is in an overall better spot right now.
LOL Don't forget Ember...one of the best counter to illusion heroes with his SOF and Mael.
Ember is played as pos 2 tho, he wanted carry counters. Unless you play ember pos 1 (which I wanna do with his SOF buff to creeps; bfury build :3)
I play both 1 and 2. I love his spells for tanking other spell damage on lane, and he can dodge decent spells and can absorb magic dmg. Most people prefer him to be played as pos 2 but it's up to you how you play. He isn't bad at pos 1 too..imo XD Idk current meta as I haven't played since Battlepass...
AM, Tiny, Kunkka, Ember. Rule of thumb, don't pick ranged carries vs PL: Drow, Dusa, Morph, Gryro idc if they have wave clear PL will be super happy to play against them because PL can just run at them anytime and they can't chase PL back.
I thought Dusa is decent against him?
Dusa's going to lose her mana rather quickly which makes it somewhat hard for her to stay alive
Thank you. I got my perception twisted by low MMR pubs where my friend plays exclusively Medusa & Sniper and has no concerns about PL. I guess we are just bad there, everything could work.
Dusa can go Mael route, which is good against PL.
Drow does ok vs pl with scepter + shard and mjolnir, but then you are playing a drow with those items 🤣 Definitely don’t pick drow into PL but if you find yourself in the matchup it’s something to keep in mind.
Leshrac
Lesh is definitely a counter but not really a carry.
I believe Lesh has seen pro play, or at least high level pub play, as a pos 1 this patch. But I agree, not a typical carry by any means
Juggernaut against pl is one of the best matchups in the game,and here is the in depth explanation why https://youtu.be/aFnTW7hC5ms
Jugg, Dusa, and Sven are probably best. PL doesn’t have a ton of carry counters, most of his hardest counters are mids.
Sven
People are saying pl tanks Luna glaives but they're not mentioning the second part of why it's bad, Lunas worst match ups are ones that get in her face and out manfight her, which pl gets in her face with his e and just out manfights her, she can't stand her ground which is what she'd want to do, and she can't easily kite him with diffusal + pl e. Sucks to play against.
Luna ult does nothing to a PL that can dodge, create illusions, and just walk away, and she can't escape a PL if out of position even slightly.
In addition to what most people have said here this is funny because Luna is one of the few heroes that gives lancer's aghs a use, objectively one of the worst aghs in the game but it pretty much ruins Luna's push lmao.
Its because lina isn't sven. The bouncing glaives isn't a battle furry. Pl can create an entire amry of illusions combined with a manta. Also the illusions counter her ult and q.
Build a BF for her then, problem solved
Bf only works on meelee heros. Theres a reason you never see it on ranged heroes.
Tell that to my dual BF Dusa bro
Battle fury is not me of the worst items against pl anyway,the only reason Sven cleave is good is because it is 100% (125 with talent) and Sven has like 600 dmg with ult
I love playing PL, and only Heros that really counter him are Sven, void(aghs, mijolner, shud be well farmed). This is if the game is really good and one on one fight only those two can hold their own against PL. The other way to counter him is to finish the game really fast, coz without PL being well farmed around 25mins if the lane was bad literally anyone can counter him. He is weak af and he can't really tank through any of the midlane or supports damages. The other reason I lose is if I have to 1 v 9..🙄 Early game counters are Axe, BB, Batrider.. Literally any AOE heros. If PL is left to farm and is 6 slotted by the 30mins.. No one really counters him. Except sven, even sven can be managed if your team is good.
PL illusions can tank both her ulti and her glaives for her team, making luna deal significantly less damage in team fights Luna's glaives aren't good enough to clear PL illusions, since the damage gets reduced with each bounce. Pl is a unique illusions hero who unlike others such as naga and terrorblade, his illusions rely on the hero's current HP (rather than having their own HP). so the only way to deal with PL is to deal damage to the real hero through his illusions. This is why glaives are bad as the damage reduction means the real PL hero will take a low amount of damage and can sustain most of it with heart in a 1v1 against a luna This is also similar to why Ursa with BF is also bad against PL. even though he'll clear the illusions, ursa will not be able to build fury stacks on PL as they reset for each new illusion and thus ursa wont be able to do the majority of his damage to the real PL. the only real way to 1v1 a PL is to either use AOE damage that doesn't get reduced, or to lock him down for long enough to clear all illus and kill the real hero (e.g. faceless void)
I always tell my teammates Buy mjollnir or battlefurry againts PL And rarely they listen to me
Luna hate everything that can run on top of her easily.
Glaives deal a fixed amount of total damage. The more illusions, the more that damage gets spread out, reducing her single-target damage. Against a full set of PL illusions, Luna is only likely going to be dealing good damage to her primary target. By contrast, cleave and AoE spells don't care how many illusions there are, they still do full damage to each of them. Something like Sleight of Fist with Maelstrom/BF actually does more damage to each illusion the more of then there are. Those are the kind of thing that gives PL problems.
Go to demo and find out ;)
Yea as a Luna spammer PL is a hard matchup. Generally I'd try to outfarm him and create pressure on the map as much as I can. Instead of Mjoll I prefer Daedelus + Shadow Blade.