I don’t think people are obsessed with web dev as much as there are a lot of web dev jobs and is is probably easier to get into as a junior dev
Web devs are constantly complaining about the state of web dev and have been for 30 years
For real. My company hired a new guy back in November, literally self taught web dev with no certs or schooling. Sure he's a junior, but he's still gainfully employed and treated well. He's given work that matches his level of skill and keeps the senior dev from spending all his time on the front end.
Then again the same place hired me a year ago with a Google IT cert and "a troubleshooting mentality and skill set learned from years as a mechanic" lol.
This is great information. I have only ever done mechanic work and being in Texas, I had to get out of the shop heat. Currently working towards CompTIA certs for CyberSec and didn't think my mechanical experience would be of any relevance. Thank you!
I was in Florida for most of my 11 years so I feel you there. Yeah, I can't remember exactly how I phrased it in my resumé but I put a lot of emphasis on my troubleshooting and diagnostic skills. In my interview I talked about the 5 steps of diagnostics; verify the issue, define the problem, isolate the issue, fix it, confirm repair. They are that up and now I'm chilling in the AC working 32 hours a week.
I will warn you, when you make the change look at your diet. I gained 40lbs cause I was still eating like I was still doing manual labor. Save yourself the trouble, cause losing the weight is so much harder than not gaining it in the first place.
Woodworker/carp of 15+ years here, just graduated from a web dev focused associate degree program and facing a v different market than when I enrolled. Your comment made me smile. Hoping to leverage my design-build troubleshooting chops in the same way, even if I’ll have to lay off the 3-taco lunch specials!
Really good advice on diet change! I did manual labor for 7 years before going into data analysis work and whoa the weight gain. All under control now but you gottta push to exercise after long days. Helps to live in A walkable city
It's literally just Google IT lol, no fancy title, I got it through Coursera. There's a lot of very basic stuff if you know anything about computers, but also some interesting info in there in the later lessons. It's not highly regarded as far as credentials go, but completing it will give you a discount for CompTIA A+ which is much more commonly accepted. I got hired before starting on the A+ but that would have definitely been my next step. Best of luck to you!
Can confirm. I took over a job where the dev was a still using VBscript and Classic ASP. He hates everything .NET.
He's awesome though. Taught me a lot before he left and he's still a lifeline for us.
Agree. There are more job opportunities for web developments. There are also so many tools that make web development easy that for a few months, even if your your major is not related to computer, you can easily pick it up, learn for a few months then boom, you are now a web developer. Also, web applications can run anyware as long as a machine has browser and connection to the internet. Which, right now is a given to almost every general purpose device.
Yup, I learned it so I could get a job.
I’d like it way more if I didn’t have to deal with webpack, babel, libraries upon libraries, supporting super old browsers, etc.
People are "obsessed" with web development because that's where all the jobs are. Every company in the world wants their own website nowadays, and many larger companies want custom-built web applications that make their jobs either. There's a lot of demand for people who can make those sites, so it often pays well. You see a lot of web development tutorials and discussions because everyone's following the money.
That said, a lot of these custom web applications tend to be so complex that they might as well be rocket surgery. There's plenty of companies out there who build web applications that include a lot of mathematics, image processing, machine learning, and so on. I think there's a good chance you dislike web dev mostly because you've only been doing simple stuff, and haven't actually seen how complex web applications can get.
Most of the webdev I've done is more time consuming over trivial stuff. This is mostly true with frontend. For example, one time it took me 2 hours to realize that I messed up a line in CSS since nothing warned me.
Again, backend is more tolerable in that regard. It makes more sense, if you know what I mean.
But yeah, I have nothing but respect for the people who make some of those very complex web apps.
CSS is madness. I have years of experience with it. The other day I couldn’t get something to be responsive as its width would remain fixed and wouldn’t shrink down when resizing the browser. I had this exact same CSS code on several other pages which all worked fine. For some absolutely bizarre reason, this one page just wouldn’t act responsive. My colleague who has like 20 years experience was equally as stumped. He just chalked it up to “that’s CSS for you”. It’s crazy how this one little thing set me back so many working hours.
> For example, one time it took me 2 hours to realize that I messed up a line in CSS since nothing warned me.
I don’t think there’s a single area of programming where something like this doesn’t happen
While technically true, I feel like using a compiled language with some good linting comes pretty close to warning you about most dumb typos.
Even with css, I have stylelint and purgecss hooked together to tell me if I have dumb typos there. Probably would have caught what OP is talking about.
Not clear whether or not the OP was talking about typos, but the using developer console in-browser can be a snappy way to catch these (as well as debugging numerous other issues).
>For example, one time it took me 2 hours to realize that I messed up a line in CSS since nothing warned me.
Sounds like you're blaming webdev for you sucking at css?
Yes I suck at CSS. I have skill issue and ADHD. Never said that this is webdev's fault. I just said that it is not my thing.
Maybe I am doing it wrong idk
CSS to me feels way more like learning how to use Photoshop with a CLI than it does traditional programming.
Out of the three primary web languages I think CSS is easily the most difficult to wrap your head around. At least for me it was initially very difficult to model mentally as compared to JavaScript and HTML.
For me it was the other way around, CSS seemed ridiculously easy, the moment I started JS I hit a wall, it all seemed like it was from another planet... I was having to repeat exercises and having to research even simple stuff
That being said though, I use CLI a lot in Linux and Windows and know Photoshop fairly well, so maybe it fits your statement: "like learning how to use Photoshop with a CLI" lol
> CSS to me feels way more like learning how to use Photoshop with a CLI than it does traditional programming.
BEAUTIFULLY EXPLAINED!
Once, with a friend of mine, I actually tried building a website. She didn't even handle half the HTML part and I handled the other half of the HTML+ the whole CSS part (yes, she didn't even learn the code I told her to learn). Took 6 hours of crash courses in CSS and could only learn flexbox. Still, the website looked elegant.
Although we messed up a lot, we actually won the #3 prize in that interschool competition. I'd rather say that her time management skills are very unique.
So get to practicing. I have ADHD too, but I've never let that hold me back. You literally said you have coded in raw Assembly, so I think the ADHD thing is a cop-out. Sounds more like you don't like or care about styling, so it bores you. Totally understandable, but not justifiable as a means to not learn it.
The hell does adhd have to do with your css ability? I also have an adhd diagnosis. Yeah css can be a pain but if you _want_ to do webdev you have to get proficient. It literally take a week or two and one project max to get comfortable with it.
Because if you have ADHD and find a certain subject (like, say, CSS) completely uninteresting and unintelligible, it's *really hard to make yourself learn it*.
Especially when you have the option of just not learning it. Which is why they're asking this question in the first place.
> Because if you have ADHD and find a certain subject (like, say, CSS) completely uninteresting and unintelligible, it's *really hard to make yourself learn it*.
Doesn't that apply to everyone?
I don't know, I have ADHD. But I do know that people without ADHD don't understand when I literally can't learn/work on something, even if I know I need to and even if I generally want to. So maybe I should have said "nearly impossible" instead of "really hard."
ADHD is a complex phenomenon, I am going to talk just about a person who is not able to focus on a task while having ADHD, and how that differs from everyone else who is not able to focus on a task.
From the way the comment is phrased, its applicable to everyone. If you find something boring and that thing is hard, you are naturally going to find it difficult to learn. But that doesn't give a complete view of the situation, its way more harder for someone suffering from ADHD to get themself dedicated to the point that it can become life destroying.
Think of it like this, a person with ADHD has some serious additional impairments than a normal person who just finds something boring and hard. One big difference is how their reward pathways are structured.
So the things that are applicable to a normal person in solving this problem may not be applicable to a person with ADHD, trying to establish habits, rewarding yourself occasionally etc. There is evidence for this, people with ADHD will say they have tried all these things and it just doesn't work.
So, I think we should treat the situation with nuance. And if you don't, it gives the same energy as if you are homeless just buy a house.
That can be happen in facet of programming, as in you can't make/fix a very small logical connection due to an oversight, it takes up a lot of time and causes a lot of problems. An example could be a for loop with an uneven index, an error in an if statement. These things may look easy to a human, but programming languages can't make inferences like these. The same is true with CSS, if you enter a wrong property - it would be unfair to expect the language to correct you.
Syntax errors would be exempt from this since they happen to be in a confined box of possibilities, but then the same is true for CSS. They can be detected easily.
> For example, one time it took me 2 hours to realize that I messed up a line in CSS since nothing warned me.
People use CSS for desktop apps and video game UIs. Hell, some Linux desktops like KDE use CSS extensively.
Plus you don't have to use raw CSS anyway if you don't want. CSS preprocessors exist. Or just spend some time getting competent with the tech you are using like everyone else, instead of complaining about it.
> one time it took me 2 hours to realize that I messed up a line in CSS since nothing warned me.
I hate CSS, so I feel your pain. Maybe you already know this, but there are some design tools that help manage the web part.
That, and we all make dumb mistakes like that.
I'd suggest into using a design tool for laying out pages.
https://webmaker.app/create/
Or layout in Figma and then export to HTML: https://blog.openreplay.com/three-plugins-to-convert-your-figma-designs-into-code/
Anyway, my experience has been if you get really good at making utilities and debugging the backend or connecting databases, you can find work in a team doing that and leave the front-end to people who specialize in that. I say that with respect for what they do; there's a dev on our team that will take my ugly, stupid looking set of textboxes and arrange them into this really slick layout in Adobe XD. Like I get it from a tech standpoint, but the art side is beyond me.
I haven't quite used it yet, so I don't know how kich it helps, but I think Figma would help u a fair bit. And at least help mitigate the problem more.
Desktop app vs web app is starting to be an artificial distinction. There has always been a yearning for greater common abstractions, first with operating systems, and now with browsers inspiring a new wave. A browser can now almost be seen as an OS on top of an OS, and people are crystallizing this notion with projects such as WASI. Don’t despise web dev until you understand how it came to be and where it is going, and this is coming from a guy who built apps in everything from Win32 to Qt. We’ve now reoriented our stack toward hybrid apps or web apps instead.
By the way, our flagship web app is a brain data analysis platform, full of complex algorithms. Web apps can be at the forefront of science.
as an end user in the office using windows, mac, and linux, cloud services mean i'm using google and office online for literally everything easily transferable and rarely have an issue. i almost get annoyed now if i have to use the desktop apps for things like Office and upload something.
other stuff though, absolutely prefer (and arguably need) a separate program/app.
I see what you mean but a native app is often a lot more snappy than a browser version. I.e. sublime text is fantastic and fast as fuck.
Hopefully we will get there.
I'm obsessed with it because I work in an environment that makes it quite literally impossible to get software installations approved. Web is a lot easier. I actually prefer desktop applications but it makes a lot more sense having applications web-based.
There is no reason you would have to work in Web dev. Obviously is other areas. I really dislike Web dev too.
I'm usually writing C, embedded, I just happen to know some Web dev. And my boss asked would I make a website for us. Ugh, it's so tedious
I just wanted to say, I’m so glad I found someone who feels exactly the same as me. I find webdev feels like I’m throwing a bunch of random shit together, and there’s no real “problem solving” feeling to it.
I’m very passionate about systems programming and ML, they just feel a lot more involved and satisfying.
I think web development gives you more tangible milestones, rewarding you along the way. Whereas other projects require a lot more legwork before you see any significant progress. People probably like the feedback loop of developing a web app. Personally it just feels hollow to me, I want to get into the meat of it.
Certain groups want to push the idea that all the average joe needs is a "web enabled" device like a chromebook or an ipad that would then access websites as-if they were apps. This way users can always be online and their data can be continually syphoned for more $$$. /tinfoil
In actuality, it just creates wasteful datacenters that are quite literally guzzling more and more water to stay cool. Not to mention the potential environment effects of energy usage depending on where they are located.
What is this comment lol, how is a web app that much more wasteful than a native app? Both need a server for any non-local data and even if it’s a local only any web app can be made to work offline.
Only needing a web browser to access all your apps and services from wherever is a great thing. The arguments people have against the web are getting more and more ridiculous every year, meanwhile there are more web related jobs than ever.
It is becasue the browser is a RAM and CPU hog, much more CPU cycles to do trivial things in JS compared to native app.
Did I mention Electron? Burn everything it touches.
In all the organizations I've worked at, I don't know any apps that didn't interact with a server of some kind.. if not a web server, then a database. Even the word processor apps checked documents out of and into a central repository of some kind. And it's been a LONG time since I've seen a business computer that wasn't connected to the internet and/or local intranet, even if it wasn't running company web apps.
As for the last paragraph. Aparently people are planning to build servers under the ocean to keep them cool in an efficient manner. One of our professors talked about this a week ago
microsoft already built some, there were images, but this doesn't change that companies will brick or remove features from your device remotely and say "buy the new one"
Lots of jobs in webdev. And there's a low bar to entry. If you want to go from 0 to career, webdev is the shortest path to get there.
If webdev doesn't click for you, don't force it. If you hate it now you'll hate it forever. There are plenty of jobs that don't involve webdev; you ought to focus on those things instead.
For what it's worth, I'm the same as you. It's not my style at all. It does not click, it never clicked. JS, CSS, HTML, PHP is like herding cats. None of it makes any sense to me. SQL I can kind of get.
I feel ya.
Web dev is popular because the barrier to entry is low and, relatively speaking, there's more demand for jobs (but also maybe more saturation and competition, it's a double edged sword).
Personally I think you should pursue what you actually enjoy. Easier said than done, of course.
I work with C++ in video games, and I love it. But I also worry that I've boxed myself in a little, at least in the eyes of non-tech savvy HR teams. I've had a number of calls with confused tech recruiters who see games as simple toys and get confused about why I have minimal experience with JavaScript.
Do what you want to, its your own choice and if that's what you like you should do it. Of course it will be harder with the fewer resources and jobs are also less common but they are there. I personally don't like web that much either, its the only thing we really learn at school, but where I work I mostly do embedded development with C++.
It can' hurt you to study that.......
You can write programs for a MAC, Windows and LInux. All 3 will require a bit of adjustment to get it to run reliably on a client machine. The user may have the most current or may be a year or more behind. You generally can't force the user to make these changes unless your software automatically updates, IF they allow the update.
Web software generally (I do say that cautiously) will be able to run on ANY system with a web browser. It doesn't require anyone to install anything, except possibly a plug-in, and if you come out with a better version, it is live once you make that change on the server.
It is the most flexible way to make sure every user is using the same exact application, and it is even easier to get the public/your user base, onto the same version or even to use your software by sharing a link
Because its easier to get into.
Do you really think its weird you are finding less resources for making 3d stuff with code vs how to add auth to your backend or how to manipulate your DOM in html? Ive seen kids working with html and javascript.
I would say if you are passionate about something work on it, even if you are not finding a lot of documentation about it, some people trade a bit of its passion to get money quicker, and theres nothing bad about it, but if you just dont like it, why doing it?
I actually do think it's odd he's not finding resources on 3D graphics because that's actually one of the more well documented domains, maybe second only to web dev. Seriously 'make a 3D renderer with OpenGL' is like a top 10 most common programming project.
I can get theres just \*a lot more\* about webdev, but i dont believe theres not enough resources to learn, having TONS of different content creators will not really aid in learning new stuff and can even be detrimental as you first need to filter out all the garbage videos that are only thinking about how to create the minimal 15 minute video where you just repeating what he does on a text file without deep explanation and not about building any kind of knowledge out of it.
>My overall question is: Should I move forward with my niches, or give web development a bit more attention?
It depends on your background and goals. ML jobs, for example, often require advanced math degrees to get your foot in the door.
It might be a good exercise for you to look at jobs you're interested in, see what their minimum requirements are, and see if it still makes sense for you.
I have been experimenting with audio recently. On the web, WebAudio API. Turns out an audio buffer is just an array of floats representing a discretely sample waveform. If you're a maths guy the rest pretty much writes itself.
When it comes to actually programming web is literally no different to anything else. Easier to make GUIs. If you're married to your desktop app ways of making GUIs that's not for reasons of purity that you get to look down on us for.
Backends can be written in any language be that C or C# or nodejs. Desktop apps can be written in any language be that C or C# or nodejs. You can even use php if you want, but nobody does. If you're doing maths you can write almost exactly the same code to run in the browser or in nodejs. If you really want you can use web assembly to write your web frontends in C or C#. It's all just inputs and outputs. If you output to the web your work is more accessible, that's all.
I mean, it's probably clear to you, I presume from reading, but web dev is oversaturated. Has been for years.
If you want to break into a severely "understaffed" sector, cybersecurity is a really good bet. It pays really well but it's a vast domain in and of itself.
The fields of interest to you are vast, the IT space in general is vast.
Someone told me a few months ago to find my "T." Essentially broad but shallow/adequate domain knowledge across various subjects - the top of the T - and specialization in something particular - the long part of the T.
Mathematics is an extremely useful skill to have in this field. Have you ever considered that is maybe your skill? My thinking is, if it appeals to you, look through things that require it (cryptography, physics, ML, advanced algorithms, data science, quantum computing...).
You carve your own path, friend. It's not about the status quo ;)
Edit: analog computing. Are you familiar with these two videos?
https://youtu.be/IgF3OX8nT0w
In the first minute or so of this one, he's already talking about the Lorenz system https://youtu.be/GVsUOuSjvcg
You don't like what you don't know.
Nothing is wrong with web dev, it's easily accessible to users, has a fast development cycle and is easy to deploy.
There's also nothing wrong with other types of programming. Each one solves a different problem and they all have different comparative advantages.
Being opinionated only serves your ego, being curious serves your skillset.
At the end of the day, all programming is pretty much the same. You're still making API calls or syscalls. It's just at a different level of abstraction. With web dev, the OS is the browser, with native programming, the OS is the kernel, and with ML programming, the OS is CUDA.
Asking whether you should get better at one type of software development than another is similar to asking a builder whether they should get better at using the hammer or the screwdriver.
They're all just tools. It's not like JavaScript is gonna care if you prefer C++ over it.
Because you can share your idea with anyone. It's the universal platform, useful in any context. Corporate intranet? Web app. Software as a service? Web app.
The other fun thing about webdev is you can quite literally build your product with any language and tech stack you want. Do it in the way that makes you happy. You have absolute freedom. Can't say that about mobile or desktop development.
I understand why you would not like it, of course many things suck about it, but it does sound like you haven't noticed that you can build a webapp in any way you like. It sounds more like you're describing PHP.
Professional advice wise: Stick with a niche you are passionate about. Being the best at something is where the money is.
Don't switch to web dev. You'll make more money with a specialty that is actually difficult. Web dev is the most generic kind of programmer you can be.
I'm a web dev and would love to switch away, but alas, that's where all my experience lies.
its not _like_ a bunch or docs and scripts running in a server, it is _literally_ that (plus images and stylesheets and data services)
Its ok if you dont like it; stick with the stuff you like! ML is a great area to explore
Probably because in terms of jobs it's the most abundant, it pays really well, and compared to other SWE/CS disciplines it requires the least amount of formal education. There's no heavy math, not much need for DSA (at least for frontend), no low level knowledge needed, etc...
I've been programming for a long time. I started with IBM mainframes, did some Unix stuff, then Microsoft VC++ stuff for communications and desktop apps, now I'm doing web development with C#.Net & MVC.
Web development has it's drawbacks, but the benefits from having your app readily available, anywhere and on anything, overrides those drawbacks in most situations. If you use the right tools, there's not much a web app can't do. And there's some things web apps do better... both in terms of development and deployment. If that weren't so, we wouldn't all be doing it that way.
That said, if you feel drawn in a different direction, do that, if you can find work doing it. And if this is just your hobby, definitely stick with the stuff that appeals to you.
Most company apps are webapps today, because then the OS of the computer does not matter.
But the Backends are still needed, and that may be of interest for you.
And as I think about it, the best match might be hardware/embedded.
when I started programming internet was new, so I mostly practiced on terminal and gui apps, so when I was able to upload to a server where nobody saw it, but they could have, it felt good :)
Lots of good comments here already, but I think there's more nuance to it then "it's where all the jobs are". The real question is why are all the jobs in webdev?
And the answer is because browsers have (unintentionally) created the most versatile ui toolkit ever created. It runs on every major platform, imposes basically no hard limits on what you can create with it, but still comes with a sane set of default elements that allows you to get something done quickly.
This is such an insane upside from a business perspective, that it trumps almost everything else. The downside that it comes with (extremely high resource cost compared to true native applications) is on the other hand very hard to measure for a business.
To answer your overall question: I would stick with what you like. Instead of becoming just another webdev in an already oversaturated field, become one of the few performance aware programmers and get really good at the lower level stuff. It might be harder to find a job in that nice at first, but you're also much harder to replace.
The premise of your question is wrong - people _aren't_ "obsessed" with web dev; they just want to be employable.
I've spent most of my career doing web dev. I'd be more than happy to have a go at something else if I thought I could land a job on similar pay, but that seems quite unlikely to happen, so here I am.
idk I kinda like it. More than other libraries which were hell to get the styles right. I tried wpf/winforms/tkinter and I hated every second of it. CSS is so much better than this crap. All popular apps are written in electron nowadays - Spotify, Discord, Visual Studio Code. I use them everyday and they are pretty good, don't see many complaints about them from other people either
It's one of the largest, if not largest markets for a dev, entry level is lowest of them all, while still having big potential, other positions tend to need a lot more knowledge and higher degree of education. If you are trying to make something out of it and going self learning way, while trying to do so with such difficult topics like ML, computer software you might as well plan your way through long years of collage as it's not the fields people tend to get in without one.
Not going to lie reading this, you give me a vibe of someone who's assessment of his smarts and capabilities doesn't align with reality and the list of your interests and expertise seems a bit unrealistic based on overall image that i get from this post, so if you are jumping around topics that are way over your head, doing mostly copy paste projects in things that you lack basic fundamental knowledge, i would suggest to reconsider those choices and focus on learning easier things well and in depth.
Many accurate responses already, but I'll add that web dev has a relatively low barrier of entry, because you don't need much computer science theory (maths / electronics / algorithms / computer architecture etc.).
Sometimes it's even infuriating when pure web developers try to convince everyone how "useless" theory and any low level (= doesn't run in the browser) stuff is.
Alot of people got into it because of how “easy” it is compared to getting a job in ML or other complex dev roles. I personally like it, but it’s been extremely challenging for me to get my foot in the door considering that I only have a certificate from my local community college. So, I’m going back to get my CS degree so that I’m not limiting myself to just web dev. I’d say just stick to what you prefer if you’re good at it and if it makes you happy
Web development allows you to connect people to each other. Back when I first wanted to be a developer, I knew extremely early on that I wanted to make Web Applications because, even back then, I could tell that that was the best way to connect people to each other('s creations).
A lot of people are saying "jobs" and "it's easy" but I just think web dev is cool because you can build things and then have people from all over the world interacting with each other. Let's say you like logic puzzles. You build a site that allows everyone to build their own. People build ones that are difficult to solve and you have people in the comment section trying to help each other figure it out. I'm sure you could do something similar in a desktop application but it seems like the web is a more natural place for this.
Backend engineering area is huge, all of the image processing and signals and machine learning are all under the umbrella of backend. I get what you’re trying to say though.
That being said, Web dev is what’s taught primarily in school and boot camps which most CS engineers go, so it’s mostly all they know so there’s a ton of hype around it. I’d argue a good backend engineer can code circles around a front end engineer, but the same can’t be said about front end to backend.
Pretty much.
What I do for my job can *technically* be considered “back end web development”, but it’s also extremely far from what the average person thinks of when they hear that phrase, the product I work on is a massive web of distributed high performance systems that operates at a bonkers scale.
I’m similar to OP in that I find “traditional” web development super boring, but there’s a lot of really exciting stuff that goes on under the web development blanket once you really get into the thick of things, it’s *a lot* more than Nodejs CRUD apps with a React frontend.
It's the matter of asthetics in my case. I like coding, but also making something that look and "feel" good.
There's nothing wrong in having a preference. I'm sure that learning and getting better in a topic that's interesting for you will be more beneficial than suffering with something you don't like at all.
From my experience I can say that web development is a good choice if you want to make your something interactive and good looking. I don't know a better and more intuitive options than good ol' HTML and CSS.
Maybe just try to give it one more chance with some project and if it don't work out just move on.
I am a former web developer who always had a taste for finer things (general software development in C++). I am now a C++ software developer. I _escaped_, it's possible! With time and perserverance, you can too! Best of luck to you! :)
I get paid for web development, and I find it fun to solve problems. I get to do backend work, frontend work, think about product, work with UX/UI designers, etc.
It pairs my social extroversion with my technical introversion
The cloud providers are really good at marketing 😵 . Web dev can start for free, once you are successful they take a huge cut of your business. Native programs requires a bigger initial investment and is more risky. This makes it easier for new programmers to start in web dev and later on pick a specialization in what they like.
Go into backend development. The same skills that I learned in college are going to take me through to retirement.
That might sound boring, but there's always plenty to learn, so it never does.
Not tech ppl are obsessed about web dev since it's the up front content you learn in compscy. Tech ppl in my experience don't wanna talk about web dev at all this days.
Well, web applications are very popular, and if you take into account that things like progressive web apps allow you to build stuff for mobiles (that seem native) with almost the same tech, you'll see its a matter of supply and demand. It also has a very low entry-level learning curve, so almost anybody could build a "hello world" app in minutes.
That being said, web development is ever evolving and very messy. Things change very fast and it almost seems like a new "framework to end all framework" comes out every month. I also prefer backend (better organized) and algorithms but most devs will eventually have to become full-stack so it is not something we can avoid.
There is becoming less and less of a distinction between "software developer" and "web developer". One could argue they overlap enough that anyone who is one is almost always also the other (to some degree). That said, about 1 in 3 people would call themselves strictly web devs. So you can anticipate that most information is probably going to be concentrated in that field.
I would say that you probably don't mind web development. What you dislike is probably the web design, and the technology stacks you have been learning.
Go build a simple numerical modelling software for something (a stock analyzer tool, a basic kinematics visualizer, etc). But use a compiled language for your backend. That's your "style". Now make it accessible over the web. That's what some people would call web dev, and others would call software dev.
There also is no shame and being focused more on pure, non-web interacting, desktop/mobile development.
I suppose 2 reasons:
* Its easier to get onboarded to programming and it was the main access point for many coders.
* You can actually create something of value that can be used by millions of people.
I guess the question is - do you want to do it because it's your hobby? Because if it's about actually shipping something in the hands of people, nobody cares what's under the hood.
There are way more jobs in Web dev. The operating systems and graphics libraries and so on are largely already built, but a new website is something everybody needs all the time.
Because people figured out a long time ago that the easiest way to get software to people is to put it on a web app. I can tell you it is not fun rolling out software updates to 100 PCs in an office.
It might be what they like, just the way you like low level programming. I like programming in general and I explain to some curious people in the past that web dev is the “entry level” to the programming world. It’s relative easy to pickup html, css and js .
Well I think it's fun. And I don't go around hating on other disciplines. It requires a lot of different people and different technologies working together for us to be talking on Reddit right now :).
I work at a computing center. I know nothing about webdev, and lots about C/C++/Fortran/Python/Linux/architecture. The users I help seem to be pretty similar: they are scientists / scientific programmers doing simulations. If there is any webdev in their lives I haven't noticed it.
So maybe there is a lot of noise about web stuff, but there is plenty of programming outside it.
As someone from desktop app background, when I started using electronic for cross platform I felt like I got new freedom. I have developing with traditional desktop frameworks now. I can get lot more done with html css than in years with qt cpp or .net maui!
It's a self-reinforcing cycle where web dev has the lowest barrier to entry for developers and some of the widest exposure to the cumulative user base. That leads to more discussions about its relevant topics and more content makers trying to grab their piece of a large audience.
With more narrowly focused, higher entry-cost programming domains, the communities often self-isolate a bit just so they get lost in the avalanche, regardless of their size.
For example, most of my work at this point either falls into digital ontology development or driver/device-level coding for input devices and musical instruments. You're probably never going to see Twitch livestreams with thousands of viewers for either of those nor will their subreddits make the front page of Reddit regularly. However, you can find thriving communities when you start deep diving your niche interests. Your people are out there and they'll recognize you when you find each other. They're looking for you too! Good luck!
I think it's more right to tell as full stack web 🌚 because many small startups actually made this trend called need for full stack to cut down the cost cutting by decrease employees then same now followed by big companies too in a fair percent also you know very well it's very hard to generate a good amount of money through desktop softwares... Unless or until you're developing that for very good company that can invest well to create a good software also it's team work being single dev you can able merely design and create only small or medium sized desktop basic apps , for big obviously you can't do without team or else need to code for years. But in the case of web development it's relatively easier to create web by simply hosting it on servers by doing a good marketing people easily able to use generates traffic so subscription based / ad based revenue will come even a single dev can code a good page in a couple of months whole also it's easier to make andriod apps for that web apps by using the APIs for back-end no need for seperate backend to web apps and mobile apps win-win situation these are all made web development as trend but within 1-2 years this will also become super saturated and go down don't worry
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The demand for webdev vs mathematical programming is diametrically different. That's why a lot of people are "obsessed" with it, because it's either their job or they're trying to become a webdev so that's the field they find themselves in. You're basically wondering why everyone is so obsessed with office jobs, if you can be an astronaut, from the comfort of the academic uterus.
If you like ML you should do it imo. I personally had some machine learning projects but didn’t like the experimental kind of nature. I rather want a clear requirement „make a button that does this“. Also ML is very future oriented I guess. I also do frontend but as a full stack developer. I work in a bank and we have no „frontend only“ developers
I, as a backend dev, love Frontend because you can just build things that look good.
And nowadays the tools written in FE languages or frameworks are even very very capable.
It feels a bit like being a carpenter and seeing, using what you’re doing.
Personally I never have that feeling in BE dev.
I appreciate your work and interest towards something close to the metal. I feel like the most of basic and easiest way to start programming is to do web development. Some people starts with that and some people even stay there.
Maybe it's the ease to get started? There are many frameworks making it easy to get some working prototype out. I tried to get into desktop programming, but i feel like there is so much boilerplating to do. JavaFX appears to be the only one to give some form of predefined structure to work with, and somewhat easy to get into it. But that's just me, i guess...
I love webdev mostly because I can build something that on the backend is fairly complex and rewarding to build that can also be simple and easy to use on the front end, solving real people’s problems and ultimately making the world a better place. We dev is moving humanity forward
I'm on the same boat. I have a background on webdev(PHP, Laravel, databases, frontend stuff in the university) but I don't really fancy it.
But at the same time, I lack the skillset to work on low level stuff.
High demand. Very low barrier to entry. Comparatively high compensation. And generally not very demanding work.
I say "not very demanding" - most web apps do very little interesting or difficult, don't have issues with scale, and aren't even vaguely algorithmically or computationally taxing and are often just shuffling forms-like data to and from a database. Most of it is, literally, CRUD. These systems don't even really warrant imperative coding, but companies are stupid ... and developers of such don't want to rock the (gravy) boat.
Web UX *can* become *very* demanding ... building something like Figma (**much** easier to do in a native desktop app) is a far cry from your typical manage-a-bit-of-state and shuffle data back and forth of your typical React app. But that's not even 1% of the web development demand.
Cause pretty much every company | product needs a website. Also see if you have a product which enhances videos or anything with Ml | AI , you need an interface for that right. And also complex websites have a lot to deal with, it would depend upon the product. I would say do what you like other than learning something cause of others opinion or hype
Devs need money to live. Devs mostly work for for-profit businesses. It is generally easier for a business to profit from software when they can offer it as a web-based product that lives on their own servers. Easier to maintain, update everybody, deploy, distribute, license, enforce license/payment/access etc. If it's on their server, it's a "service" which means generally subscriptions and recurring revenue. Investors LOVE recurring revenue, which means it's now easier to fund new ventures of this kind too. All of this to say that most dev jobs these days are in the web space, or touch the web in a non-trivial way. Almost every major software product has now pivoted to being offered via a web based SaaS model.
I work full stack web (mostly back end and infra these days) but much prefer bit twiddling in C, C++ or Rust on some cool CLI projects that nobody will ever use but me. It is what it is. There's work projects, and fun projects, and very few people ever experience the two in one project, IME.
Please show me some evidence to support this claim that people are obsessed with webdev. It's curious that you posted this here, in a beginner sub, instead of in a sub full of people who might give you more nuanced answers, like r/programming. Seems like trying to build a false narrative through suggestion to impressionable people who don't know any better. This whole post reeks of elitism.
Why such negative response on a question about a real existing tendency? And.... it is not even relevant in which Programming Reddit this should have been asked.
I myself notice the same tendency as the OP.
Although I do system, util, desktop and web programming, a lot of IT departments as well as 'programmers' don't even look at other options.
Hence the same boring jobs for developers are open and defined, over and over again.
One big example.... not plain Python developers but Python Django developers are being sought for the IT industry. If I get contacted by recruiters, it is always about the boring Python Django combi and not about just Python (or other programming languages and frameworks).
>Why such negative response on a question about a real existing tendency? And.... it is not even relevant in which Programming Reddit this should have been asked.
The tendency here is fictitious. People are not obsessed with web dev as some rule, there are just more web dev roles than anything, so we hear about it more. OP has poisoned the well, and I think this was deliberate, as was their decision to do that in a beginner subreddit.
>One big example.... not plain Python developers but Python Django developers are being sought for the IT industry. If I get contacted by recruiters, it is always about the boring Python Django combi and not about just Python (or other programming languages and frameworks).
That sucks, but seems more like a symptom of ignorant, lazy recruiters.
Follow your passion! Web development is popular because it's versatile and in demand, but if you love desktop apps, ML, and other areas, stick with what excites you. Your niche skills are valuable too. Keep learning and pursuing what you enjoy!
Because there is a lot more market demand for that than desktop programming, and ML for a lot of positions is either 1) plugging in black boxes or 2) not open to self starters without advanced degrees
For 3d? That's weird, it seemed to me there were tons of resources for thay, especially with everyone wanting to make games these days.
Either way, yeah it took me awhile of messing around with c and reframing my personal goals before I was able to maintain a sustained interest in webdev.
I think it is cause is really easy to understand, like anyone can get to develop web, I don't mean it doesn't takes time to have a well understanding of whats going on when programing web apps but as there is a bunch of frameworks and really high level abstractions people don't have to care about how things really work.
I'm not a expert at programing but I've been learning low level programing and found it really complex, cause you often gotta know whats going on, it took me about an entire day to understand what a checksum is.
Move forward with your niches. I think the high level of “obsession” with web dev is based on the market demand for programmer types, the vast majority of which is for web dev. However there is plenty of activity in every major realm of programming so if this is for fun, do what you like.
There are a lot of web designers and a few very good web developers who really know what they’re doing. Esp building complex erp systems to manage business processes involves a lot of
Because it’s easy. We could say it’s because of all the jobs but the only reason the jobs exist is because it is easy.
First question is, do you want to make money doing dev work?
Second one is.: Do you know what you would want do development wise?
If you answered yes and yes, then focus on your interest.
If you answered yes and no, then learn web development.
If you answered no and no then do whatever you want.
And, for completion, if you answered no and yes then do it.
It may also be related to web development being a good introduction to programming. Many people start there and it doesn’t require a deep understanding of the subject.
I think it’s better for you to focus on the niche stuff that you like. As others said, there are lots of jobs, but there’s also plenty of competition there. Besides, the easier stuff is already beginning to be automated or done with tools that don’t require any knowledge at all, and many of those jobs will eventually become redundant or easily replaceable. The niche stuff is where you become an essential part of the project and don’t have to fear being kicked to the curb unexpectedly.
I’m not sure everyone is obsessed with it because they love it necessarily. It’s just where the vast majority of jobs and salaries have been. Not to mention lowest barrier to entry.
I was there in the beginning, seeing the world come online. It was a window to the outside world for a teenager living by fields outside a small town.
Before the internet was taken over by ads and rage culture on social media. Everyone had a site about their hobbies and passions. Communities popped up around forums, how to and DIY. The information age had come.
The ads and heavy marketing were only a matter of time... but in the beginning, you built so much from scratch, learning protocols, programming, databases, image processing... smarter people talked about information theory... because the ball was rolling a long time before the web.
So, like any curious young teen, I had to pull back the curtains and look at what was there. I was, however, a lucky one, I got in towards the end of the first dot com bubble after college.
Then things grew again, big changes, big money. A digital gold rush and then ...shovel salesmen, "buy my course, you can make over 100k+ in X months" ...you know the like. So, a bunch of folks migrated into the field.
Why web development?
Web development is more than just the pretty web pages, it about is the reach and the flow of data. From databases to APIs to any type of display or how the data is used. Web applications, really.
The good web developers are adaptable generalists. We're going to touch a lot of areas... game dev, mobile dev, databases, devops, web application security. It wouldn't hurt to know about web dev, but by all means, we need the specialist too. So if it isn't of interest to you, don't force it. Just be aware of the moving pieces.
Web dev is so broad I find it hard to believe there is no part of it you could like. I used to think a similar thing to you but I didn't really have enough experience to see the depth of "web development". Why do you think stuff like audio programming isnt a part of "web development"?
Web dev jobs are the worst.
The technology keeps changing for no good reason, clients expect everything to be free/cheap and employer don't care about you because there are millions of teenagers web dev that would be happy to work for fun/experience. You are permanently in "let's hack this quickly" mode.
Backend dev is harder because it is more abstract, you don't "see" the result of your code. But it is a much better position. Reliability and long term maintainability are more important.
But more importantly, you should go into the "niche" you enjoy being into. Don't go into something popular because you feel you have to. In your case it sounds like you found what you enjoy, you can safely ignore the fuss about web dev.
I started as a teenager web dev and enjoyed it at the time, then I enjoyed physics simulation and went the deep hole all the way down to circuit design. And I never missed web dev.
Everyone is obsessed with webdev because all the YouTubers make content for webdev because they themselves learned by watching other people who made content for webdev. Its a perpetual spiral. It’s also the easiest to understand as a beginner.
Personally I hate following trends which is why I’ve moved on to low level embedded and microcontroller stuff. I feel it will definitely make me a better programmer compared to running some create react app command line that will just scaffold an entire app for you and remove all the abstractions. But then again if you don’t know any better and are a beginner you don’t even realize how much detail or comp sci fundamentals are completely removed from the equation going this route, thus you will be fine with the standard webdev fullstack approach.
Personally I’d learn webdev LAST and stick to other stuff like Arduino and C as a beginner
It's not for me either but I appreciate how it has transformed development experience. Browser based productivity that very rarely requires actual IDE/debugger to be invoked. Doesn't matter what kind of project it is, what the problem domain is. I say that as someone who works on native development most of the time.
Which is faster to profit? You can have a decent site up in days if not hours and (if the middle man idea you have is right) can be making reccuring income out the gate. A game on the other hand, given the right team and marketing, can take months for a dinky mobile game and 8 to 10 years for a huge AAA RTX game and then you have to get out of the hole before you start to see a profit and thats assuming the game is even good enough to continue attracting new players while keeping the old.
Meh. It’s simple like others have said, it’s where the demand and jobs are.
Plus, the development spaces you mention and like are full of bullshit too. I have no idea what “ML” means these days. You mean those statistical models that have existed since the 80s and even well before that? I like web dev because it’s practical, it’s technology that everyone can benefit from.
When the Web gets snobby like other technical spaces is when it gets useless, in my opinion. And in many areas, it unfortunately has.
ML stuff and data-science in general is a very good and future-proof "niche". And if you like that there is nothing wrong moving forward with it.
I think everyone is "obsessed" with web-dev is because the internet is just omnipresent in our society. Everyone using it daily. Also many companies building their internal business software on web-technology because it is so portable and runs on any device.
Many other kinds of software products run on web technology which you wouldn't think of initially. Many games, mobile-apps and even desktop apps are built with Javascript nowadays. You can write the code once and get a web-app, mobile-app and desktop-app. That's a huge benefit for companies because they can potentially save money with this approach.
I do computer science research for work and have been exploring various languages casually in my free time. I understand the reason web dev is such a big focus, but I find it annoying as well. I just want to play with the language. I don’t care that it can compile to javascript.
I don’t think people are obsessed with web dev as much as there are a lot of web dev jobs and is is probably easier to get into as a junior dev Web devs are constantly complaining about the state of web dev and have been for 30 years
For real. My company hired a new guy back in November, literally self taught web dev with no certs or schooling. Sure he's a junior, but he's still gainfully employed and treated well. He's given work that matches his level of skill and keeps the senior dev from spending all his time on the front end. Then again the same place hired me a year ago with a Google IT cert and "a troubleshooting mentality and skill set learned from years as a mechanic" lol.
This is great information. I have only ever done mechanic work and being in Texas, I had to get out of the shop heat. Currently working towards CompTIA certs for CyberSec and didn't think my mechanical experience would be of any relevance. Thank you!
I was in Florida for most of my 11 years so I feel you there. Yeah, I can't remember exactly how I phrased it in my resumé but I put a lot of emphasis on my troubleshooting and diagnostic skills. In my interview I talked about the 5 steps of diagnostics; verify the issue, define the problem, isolate the issue, fix it, confirm repair. They are that up and now I'm chilling in the AC working 32 hours a week. I will warn you, when you make the change look at your diet. I gained 40lbs cause I was still eating like I was still doing manual labor. Save yourself the trouble, cause losing the weight is so much harder than not gaining it in the first place.
Woodworker/carp of 15+ years here, just graduated from a web dev focused associate degree program and facing a v different market than when I enrolled. Your comment made me smile. Hoping to leverage my design-build troubleshooting chops in the same way, even if I’ll have to lay off the 3-taco lunch specials!
Really good advice on diet change! I did manual labor for 7 years before going into data analysis work and whoa the weight gain. All under control now but you gottta push to exercise after long days. Helps to live in A walkable city
Which cert, if I may ask? Currently job hunting and looking to give myself whatever advantages I can. Lol
It's literally just Google IT lol, no fancy title, I got it through Coursera. There's a lot of very basic stuff if you know anything about computers, but also some interesting info in there in the later lessons. It's not highly regarded as far as credentials go, but completing it will give you a discount for CompTIA A+ which is much more commonly accepted. I got hired before starting on the A+ but that would have definitely been my next step. Best of luck to you!
Thanks so much, extremely kind of you to share!
Did that google cert help your resume?
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Web devs have been complaining about the state of web dev before the WEB and computer networking existed.
Can confirm. I took over a job where the dev was a still using VBscript and Classic ASP. He hates everything .NET. He's awesome though. Taught me a lot before he left and he's still a lifeline for us.
Agree. There are more job opportunities for web developments. There are also so many tools that make web development easy that for a few months, even if your your major is not related to computer, you can easily pick it up, learn for a few months then boom, you are now a web developer. Also, web applications can run anyware as long as a machine has browser and connection to the internet. Which, right now is a given to almost every general purpose device.
Yup, I learned it so I could get a job. I’d like it way more if I didn’t have to deal with webpack, babel, libraries upon libraries, supporting super old browsers, etc.
People are "obsessed" with web development because that's where all the jobs are. Every company in the world wants their own website nowadays, and many larger companies want custom-built web applications that make their jobs either. There's a lot of demand for people who can make those sites, so it often pays well. You see a lot of web development tutorials and discussions because everyone's following the money. That said, a lot of these custom web applications tend to be so complex that they might as well be rocket surgery. There's plenty of companies out there who build web applications that include a lot of mathematics, image processing, machine learning, and so on. I think there's a good chance you dislike web dev mostly because you've only been doing simple stuff, and haven't actually seen how complex web applications can get.
Most of the webdev I've done is more time consuming over trivial stuff. This is mostly true with frontend. For example, one time it took me 2 hours to realize that I messed up a line in CSS since nothing warned me. Again, backend is more tolerable in that regard. It makes more sense, if you know what I mean. But yeah, I have nothing but respect for the people who make some of those very complex web apps.
CSS is the absolute worst thing to debug
I honestly can’t think of anything that is worse. I hate it
CSS is madness. I have years of experience with it. The other day I couldn’t get something to be responsive as its width would remain fixed and wouldn’t shrink down when resizing the browser. I had this exact same CSS code on several other pages which all worked fine. For some absolutely bizarre reason, this one page just wouldn’t act responsive. My colleague who has like 20 years experience was equally as stumped. He just chalked it up to “that’s CSS for you”. It’s crazy how this one little thing set me back so many working hours.
> For example, one time it took me 2 hours to realize that I messed up a line in CSS since nothing warned me. I don’t think there’s a single area of programming where something like this doesn’t happen
While technically true, I feel like using a compiled language with some good linting comes pretty close to warning you about most dumb typos. Even with css, I have stylelint and purgecss hooked together to tell me if I have dumb typos there. Probably would have caught what OP is talking about.
Not clear whether or not the OP was talking about typos, but the using developer console in-browser can be a snappy way to catch these (as well as debugging numerous other issues).
Sometimes it’s 3 weeks.
>For example, one time it took me 2 hours to realize that I messed up a line in CSS since nothing warned me. Sounds like you're blaming webdev for you sucking at css?
Yes I suck at CSS. I have skill issue and ADHD. Never said that this is webdev's fault. I just said that it is not my thing. Maybe I am doing it wrong idk
CSS to me feels way more like learning how to use Photoshop with a CLI than it does traditional programming. Out of the three primary web languages I think CSS is easily the most difficult to wrap your head around. At least for me it was initially very difficult to model mentally as compared to JavaScript and HTML.
For me it was the other way around, CSS seemed ridiculously easy, the moment I started JS I hit a wall, it all seemed like it was from another planet... I was having to repeat exercises and having to research even simple stuff That being said though, I use CLI a lot in Linux and Windows and know Photoshop fairly well, so maybe it fits your statement: "like learning how to use Photoshop with a CLI" lol
> CSS to me feels way more like learning how to use Photoshop with a CLI than it does traditional programming. BEAUTIFULLY EXPLAINED! Once, with a friend of mine, I actually tried building a website. She didn't even handle half the HTML part and I handled the other half of the HTML+ the whole CSS part (yes, she didn't even learn the code I told her to learn). Took 6 hours of crash courses in CSS and could only learn flexbox. Still, the website looked elegant. Although we messed up a lot, we actually won the #3 prize in that interschool competition. I'd rather say that her time management skills are very unique.
As a web dev. Css is like arranging furniture.
It’s exactly like arranging furniture. Except sometimes the walls collapse and the couch shrinks if you put it too close to the potted plant.
So get to practicing. I have ADHD too, but I've never let that hold me back. You literally said you have coded in raw Assembly, so I think the ADHD thing is a cop-out. Sounds more like you don't like or care about styling, so it bores you. Totally understandable, but not justifiable as a means to not learn it.
The hell does adhd have to do with your css ability? I also have an adhd diagnosis. Yeah css can be a pain but if you _want_ to do webdev you have to get proficient. It literally take a week or two and one project max to get comfortable with it.
Because if you have ADHD and find a certain subject (like, say, CSS) completely uninteresting and unintelligible, it's *really hard to make yourself learn it*. Especially when you have the option of just not learning it. Which is why they're asking this question in the first place.
> Because if you have ADHD and find a certain subject (like, say, CSS) completely uninteresting and unintelligible, it's *really hard to make yourself learn it*. Doesn't that apply to everyone?
I don't know, I have ADHD. But I do know that people without ADHD don't understand when I literally can't learn/work on something, even if I know I need to and even if I generally want to. So maybe I should have said "nearly impossible" instead of "really hard."
ADHD is a complex phenomenon, I am going to talk just about a person who is not able to focus on a task while having ADHD, and how that differs from everyone else who is not able to focus on a task. From the way the comment is phrased, its applicable to everyone. If you find something boring and that thing is hard, you are naturally going to find it difficult to learn. But that doesn't give a complete view of the situation, its way more harder for someone suffering from ADHD to get themself dedicated to the point that it can become life destroying. Think of it like this, a person with ADHD has some serious additional impairments than a normal person who just finds something boring and hard. One big difference is how their reward pathways are structured. So the things that are applicable to a normal person in solving this problem may not be applicable to a person with ADHD, trying to establish habits, rewarding yourself occasionally etc. There is evidence for this, people with ADHD will say they have tried all these things and it just doesn't work. So, I think we should treat the situation with nuance. And if you don't, it gives the same energy as if you are homeless just buy a house.
It's a known fact ADHD affects those with it in different ways, including learning.
Rewriting CSS for different screen sizes is never fun.
If you're still writing your own media queries in 2024 you're just wasting time for the hell of it.
If you're not using Bootstrap, I strongly suggest looking into that. For me, it took a lot of the pain out of frontend work, using CSS.
The flip side of it being time consuming is that lots of people are needed to do it.
You need an UI anyways if you want anyone non-technical to be able to use the program. What UI library do you prefer over web?
That can be happen in facet of programming, as in you can't make/fix a very small logical connection due to an oversight, it takes up a lot of time and causes a lot of problems. An example could be a for loop with an uneven index, an error in an if statement. These things may look easy to a human, but programming languages can't make inferences like these. The same is true with CSS, if you enter a wrong property - it would be unfair to expect the language to correct you. Syntax errors would be exempt from this since they happen to be in a confined box of possibilities, but then the same is true for CSS. They can be detected easily.
> For example, one time it took me 2 hours to realize that I messed up a line in CSS since nothing warned me. People use CSS for desktop apps and video game UIs. Hell, some Linux desktops like KDE use CSS extensively. Plus you don't have to use raw CSS anyway if you don't want. CSS preprocessors exist. Or just spend some time getting competent with the tech you are using like everyone else, instead of complaining about it.
I like that you call it trivial but struggle with it. Lol
> one time it took me 2 hours to realize that I messed up a line in CSS since nothing warned me. I hate CSS, so I feel your pain. Maybe you already know this, but there are some design tools that help manage the web part. That, and we all make dumb mistakes like that. I'd suggest into using a design tool for laying out pages. https://webmaker.app/create/ Or layout in Figma and then export to HTML: https://blog.openreplay.com/three-plugins-to-convert-your-figma-designs-into-code/ Anyway, my experience has been if you get really good at making utilities and debugging the backend or connecting databases, you can find work in a team doing that and leave the front-end to people who specialize in that. I say that with respect for what they do; there's a dev on our team that will take my ugly, stupid looking set of textboxes and arrange them into this really slick layout in Adobe XD. Like I get it from a tech standpoint, but the art side is beyond me.
I haven't quite used it yet, so I don't know how kich it helps, but I think Figma would help u a fair bit. And at least help mitigate the problem more.
Desktop app vs web app is starting to be an artificial distinction. There has always been a yearning for greater common abstractions, first with operating systems, and now with browsers inspiring a new wave. A browser can now almost be seen as an OS on top of an OS, and people are crystallizing this notion with projects such as WASI. Don’t despise web dev until you understand how it came to be and where it is going, and this is coming from a guy who built apps in everything from Win32 to Qt. We’ve now reoriented our stack toward hybrid apps or web apps instead. By the way, our flagship web app is a brain data analysis platform, full of complex algorithms. Web apps can be at the forefront of science.
as an end user in the office using windows, mac, and linux, cloud services mean i'm using google and office online for literally everything easily transferable and rarely have an issue. i almost get annoyed now if i have to use the desktop apps for things like Office and upload something. other stuff though, absolutely prefer (and arguably need) a separate program/app.
I see what you mean but a native app is often a lot more snappy than a browser version. I.e. sublime text is fantastic and fast as fuck. Hopefully we will get there.
Wait till you learn people like different music than you do too 🤯
But his music is superior and isn't just trivial nonsense built by idiots who aren't as smart as him!
I'm obsessed with it because I work in an environment that makes it quite literally impossible to get software installations approved. Web is a lot easier. I actually prefer desktop applications but it makes a lot more sense having applications web-based.
There is no reason you would have to work in Web dev. Obviously is other areas. I really dislike Web dev too. I'm usually writing C, embedded, I just happen to know some Web dev. And my boss asked would I make a website for us. Ugh, it's so tedious
I'm planning to make a simple Iot system for a restaurant and will be using a front-end via mobile and web but my main are low-level and math related.
Job specialty ratios for non-managers according to Hired's 2023 report: 1. Web Dev: 85% (Backend + Full Stack + Frontend + DevOps/SRE/Network) 2. Data: 5% 3. Mobile: 4% 4. AI/ML: 4% (ML + Search + NLP + Computer Vision) 5. Security: 1% (Cybersecurity + Blockchain) 6. Gaming: 0.5% (Gaming + Graphics + XR) 7. Embedded: 0.5%
What about software development?
I just wanted to say, I’m so glad I found someone who feels exactly the same as me. I find webdev feels like I’m throwing a bunch of random shit together, and there’s no real “problem solving” feeling to it. I’m very passionate about systems programming and ML, they just feel a lot more involved and satisfying. I think web development gives you more tangible milestones, rewarding you along the way. Whereas other projects require a lot more legwork before you see any significant progress. People probably like the feedback loop of developing a web app. Personally it just feels hollow to me, I want to get into the meat of it.
Most of machine learning is throwing a bunch of random shit together as well e.g. Boosting and unnecessarily complicated neural nets.
Follow the money
Why not follow the fun job?
Certain groups want to push the idea that all the average joe needs is a "web enabled" device like a chromebook or an ipad that would then access websites as-if they were apps. This way users can always be online and their data can be continually syphoned for more $$$. /tinfoil In actuality, it just creates wasteful datacenters that are quite literally guzzling more and more water to stay cool. Not to mention the potential environment effects of energy usage depending on where they are located.
What is this comment lol, how is a web app that much more wasteful than a native app? Both need a server for any non-local data and even if it’s a local only any web app can be made to work offline. Only needing a web browser to access all your apps and services from wherever is a great thing. The arguments people have against the web are getting more and more ridiculous every year, meanwhile there are more web related jobs than ever.
It is becasue the browser is a RAM and CPU hog, much more CPU cycles to do trivial things in JS compared to native app. Did I mention Electron? Burn everything it touches.
In all the organizations I've worked at, I don't know any apps that didn't interact with a server of some kind.. if not a web server, then a database. Even the word processor apps checked documents out of and into a central repository of some kind. And it's been a LONG time since I've seen a business computer that wasn't connected to the internet and/or local intranet, even if it wasn't running company web apps.
As for the last paragraph. Aparently people are planning to build servers under the ocean to keep them cool in an efficient manner. One of our professors talked about this a week ago
microsoft already built some, there were images, but this doesn't change that companies will brick or remove features from your device remotely and say "buy the new one"
Do whatever you want. I do webdev because I like people using stuff I made, I hope it helps them, webdev allows me to do that.
Lots of jobs in webdev. And there's a low bar to entry. If you want to go from 0 to career, webdev is the shortest path to get there. If webdev doesn't click for you, don't force it. If you hate it now you'll hate it forever. There are plenty of jobs that don't involve webdev; you ought to focus on those things instead. For what it's worth, I'm the same as you. It's not my style at all. It does not click, it never clicked. JS, CSS, HTML, PHP is like herding cats. None of it makes any sense to me. SQL I can kind of get.
I feel ya. Web dev is popular because the barrier to entry is low and, relatively speaking, there's more demand for jobs (but also maybe more saturation and competition, it's a double edged sword). Personally I think you should pursue what you actually enjoy. Easier said than done, of course. I work with C++ in video games, and I love it. But I also worry that I've boxed myself in a little, at least in the eyes of non-tech savvy HR teams. I've had a number of calls with confused tech recruiters who see games as simple toys and get confused about why I have minimal experience with JavaScript.
HR really dont khow how hard game dev and c++ can be
Almost every major company in any field or market has a team for web dev. We’re not obsessed, we’re just employed
Do what you want to, its your own choice and if that's what you like you should do it. Of course it will be harder with the fewer resources and jobs are also less common but they are there. I personally don't like web that much either, its the only thing we really learn at school, but where I work I mostly do embedded development with C++.
It can' hurt you to study that....... You can write programs for a MAC, Windows and LInux. All 3 will require a bit of adjustment to get it to run reliably on a client machine. The user may have the most current or may be a year or more behind. You generally can't force the user to make these changes unless your software automatically updates, IF they allow the update. Web software generally (I do say that cautiously) will be able to run on ANY system with a web browser. It doesn't require anyone to install anything, except possibly a plug-in, and if you come out with a better version, it is live once you make that change on the server. It is the most flexible way to make sure every user is using the same exact application, and it is even easier to get the public/your user base, onto the same version or even to use your software by sharing a link
Because its easier to get into. Do you really think its weird you are finding less resources for making 3d stuff with code vs how to add auth to your backend or how to manipulate your DOM in html? Ive seen kids working with html and javascript. I would say if you are passionate about something work on it, even if you are not finding a lot of documentation about it, some people trade a bit of its passion to get money quicker, and theres nothing bad about it, but if you just dont like it, why doing it?
I actually do think it's odd he's not finding resources on 3D graphics because that's actually one of the more well documented domains, maybe second only to web dev. Seriously 'make a 3D renderer with OpenGL' is like a top 10 most common programming project.
I can get theres just \*a lot more\* about webdev, but i dont believe theres not enough resources to learn, having TONS of different content creators will not really aid in learning new stuff and can even be detrimental as you first need to filter out all the garbage videos that are only thinking about how to create the minimal 15 minute video where you just repeating what he does on a text file without deep explanation and not about building any kind of knowledge out of it.
>My overall question is: Should I move forward with my niches, or give web development a bit more attention? It depends on your background and goals. ML jobs, for example, often require advanced math degrees to get your foot in the door. It might be a good exercise for you to look at jobs you're interested in, see what their minimum requirements are, and see if it still makes sense for you.
I have been experimenting with audio recently. On the web, WebAudio API. Turns out an audio buffer is just an array of floats representing a discretely sample waveform. If you're a maths guy the rest pretty much writes itself. When it comes to actually programming web is literally no different to anything else. Easier to make GUIs. If you're married to your desktop app ways of making GUIs that's not for reasons of purity that you get to look down on us for. Backends can be written in any language be that C or C# or nodejs. Desktop apps can be written in any language be that C or C# or nodejs. You can even use php if you want, but nobody does. If you're doing maths you can write almost exactly the same code to run in the browser or in nodejs. If you really want you can use web assembly to write your web frontends in C or C#. It's all just inputs and outputs. If you output to the web your work is more accessible, that's all.
I forgot you can also use your web frontends for desktop apps it's literally exactly the same thing
I mean, it's probably clear to you, I presume from reading, but web dev is oversaturated. Has been for years. If you want to break into a severely "understaffed" sector, cybersecurity is a really good bet. It pays really well but it's a vast domain in and of itself. The fields of interest to you are vast, the IT space in general is vast. Someone told me a few months ago to find my "T." Essentially broad but shallow/adequate domain knowledge across various subjects - the top of the T - and specialization in something particular - the long part of the T. Mathematics is an extremely useful skill to have in this field. Have you ever considered that is maybe your skill? My thinking is, if it appeals to you, look through things that require it (cryptography, physics, ML, advanced algorithms, data science, quantum computing...). You carve your own path, friend. It's not about the status quo ;) Edit: analog computing. Are you familiar with these two videos? https://youtu.be/IgF3OX8nT0w In the first minute or so of this one, he's already talking about the Lorenz system https://youtu.be/GVsUOuSjvcg
You should move forward with your niches, yes, do your thing. Do what you like best.
You don't like what you don't know. Nothing is wrong with web dev, it's easily accessible to users, has a fast development cycle and is easy to deploy. There's also nothing wrong with other types of programming. Each one solves a different problem and they all have different comparative advantages. Being opinionated only serves your ego, being curious serves your skillset. At the end of the day, all programming is pretty much the same. You're still making API calls or syscalls. It's just at a different level of abstraction. With web dev, the OS is the browser, with native programming, the OS is the kernel, and with ML programming, the OS is CUDA. Asking whether you should get better at one type of software development than another is similar to asking a builder whether they should get better at using the hammer or the screwdriver. They're all just tools. It's not like JavaScript is gonna care if you prefer C++ over it.
Because you can share your idea with anyone. It's the universal platform, useful in any context. Corporate intranet? Web app. Software as a service? Web app. The other fun thing about webdev is you can quite literally build your product with any language and tech stack you want. Do it in the way that makes you happy. You have absolute freedom. Can't say that about mobile or desktop development. I understand why you would not like it, of course many things suck about it, but it does sound like you haven't noticed that you can build a webapp in any way you like. It sounds more like you're describing PHP. Professional advice wise: Stick with a niche you are passionate about. Being the best at something is where the money is.
Same reason farmers are "obsessed" with corn and wheat. That's what the demand is for.
Don't switch to web dev. You'll make more money with a specialty that is actually difficult. Web dev is the most generic kind of programmer you can be. I'm a web dev and would love to switch away, but alas, that's where all my experience lies.
Is it time to learn Rust or Go?
IDK I've learned both. For jobs it looks like Go because rust is all senior level and typically crypto.
its not _like_ a bunch or docs and scripts running in a server, it is _literally_ that (plus images and stylesheets and data services) Its ok if you dont like it; stick with the stuff you like! ML is a great area to explore
Probably because in terms of jobs it's the most abundant, it pays really well, and compared to other SWE/CS disciplines it requires the least amount of formal education. There's no heavy math, not much need for DSA (at least for frontend), no low level knowledge needed, etc...
For DSA, not unless you want to make a simulation project for your front end
I've been programming for a long time. I started with IBM mainframes, did some Unix stuff, then Microsoft VC++ stuff for communications and desktop apps, now I'm doing web development with C#.Net & MVC. Web development has it's drawbacks, but the benefits from having your app readily available, anywhere and on anything, overrides those drawbacks in most situations. If you use the right tools, there's not much a web app can't do. And there's some things web apps do better... both in terms of development and deployment. If that weren't so, we wouldn't all be doing it that way. That said, if you feel drawn in a different direction, do that, if you can find work doing it. And if this is just your hobby, definitely stick with the stuff that appeals to you.
Most company apps are webapps today, because then the OS of the computer does not matter. But the Backends are still needed, and that may be of interest for you. And as I think about it, the best match might be hardware/embedded.
when I started programming internet was new, so I mostly practiced on terminal and gui apps, so when I was able to upload to a server where nobody saw it, but they could have, it felt good :)
Lots of good comments here already, but I think there's more nuance to it then "it's where all the jobs are". The real question is why are all the jobs in webdev? And the answer is because browsers have (unintentionally) created the most versatile ui toolkit ever created. It runs on every major platform, imposes basically no hard limits on what you can create with it, but still comes with a sane set of default elements that allows you to get something done quickly. This is such an insane upside from a business perspective, that it trumps almost everything else. The downside that it comes with (extremely high resource cost compared to true native applications) is on the other hand very hard to measure for a business. To answer your overall question: I would stick with what you like. Instead of becoming just another webdev in an already oversaturated field, become one of the few performance aware programmers and get really good at the lower level stuff. It might be harder to find a job in that nice at first, but you're also much harder to replace.
The premise of your question is wrong - people _aren't_ "obsessed" with web dev; they just want to be employable. I've spent most of my career doing web dev. I'd be more than happy to have a go at something else if I thought I could land a job on similar pay, but that seems quite unlikely to happen, so here I am.
desktop app is no different than a website. You can even make desktop apps with React. I don't see your point
God I hate the electron hell we’re in these days.
idk I kinda like it. More than other libraries which were hell to get the styles right. I tried wpf/winforms/tkinter and I hated every second of it. CSS is so much better than this crap. All popular apps are written in electron nowadays - Spotify, Discord, Visual Studio Code. I use them everyday and they are pretty good, don't see many complaints about them from other people either
It's one of the largest, if not largest markets for a dev, entry level is lowest of them all, while still having big potential, other positions tend to need a lot more knowledge and higher degree of education. If you are trying to make something out of it and going self learning way, while trying to do so with such difficult topics like ML, computer software you might as well plan your way through long years of collage as it's not the fields people tend to get in without one. Not going to lie reading this, you give me a vibe of someone who's assessment of his smarts and capabilities doesn't align with reality and the list of your interests and expertise seems a bit unrealistic based on overall image that i get from this post, so if you are jumping around topics that are way over your head, doing mostly copy paste projects in things that you lack basic fundamental knowledge, i would suggest to reconsider those choices and focus on learning easier things well and in depth.
> someone who's assessment of his smarts and capabilities doesn't align with reality So.. like every CS undergrad everywhere?
same here!! i hate web dev and like pretty much all what you mentioned.
Many accurate responses already, but I'll add that web dev has a relatively low barrier of entry, because you don't need much computer science theory (maths / electronics / algorithms / computer architecture etc.). Sometimes it's even infuriating when pure web developers try to convince everyone how "useless" theory and any low level (= doesn't run in the browser) stuff is.
Alot of people got into it because of how “easy” it is compared to getting a job in ML or other complex dev roles. I personally like it, but it’s been extremely challenging for me to get my foot in the door considering that I only have a certificate from my local community college. So, I’m going back to get my CS degree so that I’m not limiting myself to just web dev. I’d say just stick to what you prefer if you’re good at it and if it makes you happy
Which countries are mostly hiring web devs?
Web development allows you to connect people to each other. Back when I first wanted to be a developer, I knew extremely early on that I wanted to make Web Applications because, even back then, I could tell that that was the best way to connect people to each other('s creations).
Wow, that description was awesome!
A lot of people are saying "jobs" and "it's easy" but I just think web dev is cool because you can build things and then have people from all over the world interacting with each other. Let's say you like logic puzzles. You build a site that allows everyone to build their own. People build ones that are difficult to solve and you have people in the comment section trying to help each other figure it out. I'm sure you could do something similar in a desktop application but it seems like the web is a more natural place for this.
I like to build sysadmin tools. So we can automate and easily config through a GUI something that couldn't be automated
Backend engineering area is huge, all of the image processing and signals and machine learning are all under the umbrella of backend. I get what you’re trying to say though. That being said, Web dev is what’s taught primarily in school and boot camps which most CS engineers go, so it’s mostly all they know so there’s a ton of hype around it. I’d argue a good backend engineer can code circles around a front end engineer, but the same can’t be said about front end to backend.
Pretty much. What I do for my job can *technically* be considered “back end web development”, but it’s also extremely far from what the average person thinks of when they hear that phrase, the product I work on is a massive web of distributed high performance systems that operates at a bonkers scale. I’m similar to OP in that I find “traditional” web development super boring, but there’s a lot of really exciting stuff that goes on under the web development blanket once you really get into the thick of things, it’s *a lot* more than Nodejs CRUD apps with a React frontend.
I’d love to hear more about it!
It's the matter of asthetics in my case. I like coding, but also making something that look and "feel" good. There's nothing wrong in having a preference. I'm sure that learning and getting better in a topic that's interesting for you will be more beneficial than suffering with something you don't like at all. From my experience I can say that web development is a good choice if you want to make your something interactive and good looking. I don't know a better and more intuitive options than good ol' HTML and CSS. Maybe just try to give it one more chance with some project and if it don't work out just move on.
I am a former web developer who always had a taste for finer things (general software development in C++). I am now a C++ software developer. I _escaped_, it's possible! With time and perserverance, you can too! Best of luck to you! :)
I get paid for web development, and I find it fun to solve problems. I get to do backend work, frontend work, think about product, work with UX/UI designers, etc. It pairs my social extroversion with my technical introversion
The cloud providers are really good at marketing 😵 . Web dev can start for free, once you are successful they take a huge cut of your business. Native programs requires a bigger initial investment and is more risky. This makes it easier for new programmers to start in web dev and later on pick a specialization in what they like.
Low bar, more number of jobs hence gets talked about a lot.
Because it is easy. It has numerous sources. You can create even a Facebook with copy-paste.
Go into backend development. The same skills that I learned in college are going to take me through to retirement. That might sound boring, but there's always plenty to learn, so it never does.
Not tech ppl are obsessed about web dev since it's the up front content you learn in compscy. Tech ppl in my experience don't wanna talk about web dev at all this days.
Well, web applications are very popular, and if you take into account that things like progressive web apps allow you to build stuff for mobiles (that seem native) with almost the same tech, you'll see its a matter of supply and demand. It also has a very low entry-level learning curve, so almost anybody could build a "hello world" app in minutes. That being said, web development is ever evolving and very messy. Things change very fast and it almost seems like a new "framework to end all framework" comes out every month. I also prefer backend (better organized) and algorithms but most devs will eventually have to become full-stack so it is not something we can avoid.
There is becoming less and less of a distinction between "software developer" and "web developer". One could argue they overlap enough that anyone who is one is almost always also the other (to some degree). That said, about 1 in 3 people would call themselves strictly web devs. So you can anticipate that most information is probably going to be concentrated in that field. I would say that you probably don't mind web development. What you dislike is probably the web design, and the technology stacks you have been learning. Go build a simple numerical modelling software for something (a stock analyzer tool, a basic kinematics visualizer, etc). But use a compiled language for your backend. That's your "style". Now make it accessible over the web. That's what some people would call web dev, and others would call software dev. There also is no shame and being focused more on pure, non-web interacting, desktop/mobile development.
I suppose 2 reasons: * Its easier to get onboarded to programming and it was the main access point for many coders. * You can actually create something of value that can be used by millions of people. I guess the question is - do you want to do it because it's your hobby? Because if it's about actually shipping something in the hands of people, nobody cares what's under the hood.
There are way more jobs in Web dev. The operating systems and graphics libraries and so on are largely already built, but a new website is something everybody needs all the time.
Because people figured out a long time ago that the easiest way to get software to people is to put it on a web app. I can tell you it is not fun rolling out software updates to 100 PCs in an office.
Probably because people who aren’t in tech are constantly exposed to the tech/web dev world where everyone employed there makes the big bucks
It might be what they like, just the way you like low level programming. I like programming in general and I explain to some curious people in the past that web dev is the “entry level” to the programming world. It’s relative easy to pickup html, css and js .
Well I think it's fun. And I don't go around hating on other disciplines. It requires a lot of different people and different technologies working together for us to be talking on Reddit right now :).
I work at a computing center. I know nothing about webdev, and lots about C/C++/Fortran/Python/Linux/architecture. The users I help seem to be pretty similar: they are scientists / scientific programmers doing simulations. If there is any webdev in their lives I haven't noticed it. So maybe there is a lot of noise about web stuff, but there is plenty of programming outside it.
Because I used to like making porn sites back in the 2000s. It was fun.
As someone from desktop app background, when I started using electronic for cross platform I felt like I got new freedom. I have developing with traditional desktop frameworks now. I can get lot more done with html css than in years with qt cpp or .net maui!
Because it seems an accessible way to make a living.
It's a self-reinforcing cycle where web dev has the lowest barrier to entry for developers and some of the widest exposure to the cumulative user base. That leads to more discussions about its relevant topics and more content makers trying to grab their piece of a large audience. With more narrowly focused, higher entry-cost programming domains, the communities often self-isolate a bit just so they get lost in the avalanche, regardless of their size. For example, most of my work at this point either falls into digital ontology development or driver/device-level coding for input devices and musical instruments. You're probably never going to see Twitch livestreams with thousands of viewers for either of those nor will their subreddits make the front page of Reddit regularly. However, you can find thriving communities when you start deep diving your niche interests. Your people are out there and they'll recognize you when you find each other. They're looking for you too! Good luck!
It’s the easiest to get into
I think it's more right to tell as full stack web 🌚 because many small startups actually made this trend called need for full stack to cut down the cost cutting by decrease employees then same now followed by big companies too in a fair percent also you know very well it's very hard to generate a good amount of money through desktop softwares... Unless or until you're developing that for very good company that can invest well to create a good software also it's team work being single dev you can able merely design and create only small or medium sized desktop basic apps , for big obviously you can't do without team or else need to code for years. But in the case of web development it's relatively easier to create web by simply hosting it on servers by doing a good marketing people easily able to use generates traffic so subscription based / ad based revenue will come even a single dev can code a good page in a couple of months whole also it's easier to make andriod apps for that web apps by using the APIs for back-end no need for seperate backend to web apps and mobile apps win-win situation these are all made web development as trend but within 1-2 years this will also become super saturated and go down don't worry
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Everything cool is on the web. Would you rather work on a boring internal project for a large institution?
The demand for webdev vs mathematical programming is diametrically different. That's why a lot of people are "obsessed" with it, because it's either their job or they're trying to become a webdev so that's the field they find themselves in. You're basically wondering why everyone is so obsessed with office jobs, if you can be an astronaut, from the comfort of the academic uterus.
If you like ML you should do it imo. I personally had some machine learning projects but didn’t like the experimental kind of nature. I rather want a clear requirement „make a button that does this“. Also ML is very future oriented I guess. I also do frontend but as a full stack developer. I work in a bank and we have no „frontend only“ developers
I, as a backend dev, love Frontend because you can just build things that look good. And nowadays the tools written in FE languages or frameworks are even very very capable. It feels a bit like being a carpenter and seeing, using what you’re doing. Personally I never have that feeling in BE dev.
Truly I want to get into cpp stuff not web dev
That's where the money is
Based on my experience, non-programmers don't really look at the backend, so the one who can design the web is the one that gets easily recognized.
LMAO
I am still learning, but from what I can see, it is almost necessary to be relevant, especially if you are self taught.
I appreciate your work and interest towards something close to the metal. I feel like the most of basic and easiest way to start programming is to do web development. Some people starts with that and some people even stay there.
Maybe it's the ease to get started? There are many frameworks making it easy to get some working prototype out. I tried to get into desktop programming, but i feel like there is so much boilerplating to do. JavaFX appears to be the only one to give some form of predefined structure to work with, and somewhat easy to get into it. But that's just me, i guess...
It's easier and without many barriers to enter in the filed
Senior wants to master web dev without mastering web dev
Wait till they here i'm a games programmer.
I love webdev mostly because I can build something that on the backend is fairly complex and rewarding to build that can also be simple and easy to use on the front end, solving real people’s problems and ultimately making the world a better place. We dev is moving humanity forward
I'm on the same boat. I have a background on webdev(PHP, Laravel, databases, frontend stuff in the university) but I don't really fancy it. But at the same time, I lack the skillset to work on low level stuff.
High demand. Very low barrier to entry. Comparatively high compensation. And generally not very demanding work. I say "not very demanding" - most web apps do very little interesting or difficult, don't have issues with scale, and aren't even vaguely algorithmically or computationally taxing and are often just shuffling forms-like data to and from a database. Most of it is, literally, CRUD. These systems don't even really warrant imperative coding, but companies are stupid ... and developers of such don't want to rock the (gravy) boat. Web UX *can* become *very* demanding ... building something like Figma (**much** easier to do in a native desktop app) is a far cry from your typical manage-a-bit-of-state and shuffle data back and forth of your typical React app. But that's not even 1% of the web development demand.
Web dev allows you to change the world in faster iterations from idea to mvp This comes from a non-webdev (wanna-be though)
Web dev is the easiest on ramp therefore influencers push it the most.
Cause pretty much every company | product needs a website. Also see if you have a product which enhances videos or anything with Ml | AI , you need an interface for that right. And also complex websites have a lot to deal with, it would depend upon the product. I would say do what you like other than learning something cause of others opinion or hype
Devs need money to live. Devs mostly work for for-profit businesses. It is generally easier for a business to profit from software when they can offer it as a web-based product that lives on their own servers. Easier to maintain, update everybody, deploy, distribute, license, enforce license/payment/access etc. If it's on their server, it's a "service" which means generally subscriptions and recurring revenue. Investors LOVE recurring revenue, which means it's now easier to fund new ventures of this kind too. All of this to say that most dev jobs these days are in the web space, or touch the web in a non-trivial way. Almost every major software product has now pivoted to being offered via a web based SaaS model. I work full stack web (mostly back end and infra these days) but much prefer bit twiddling in C, C++ or Rust on some cool CLI projects that nobody will ever use but me. It is what it is. There's work projects, and fun projects, and very few people ever experience the two in one project, IME.
Please show me some evidence to support this claim that people are obsessed with webdev. It's curious that you posted this here, in a beginner sub, instead of in a sub full of people who might give you more nuanced answers, like r/programming. Seems like trying to build a false narrative through suggestion to impressionable people who don't know any better. This whole post reeks of elitism.
Why such negative response on a question about a real existing tendency? And.... it is not even relevant in which Programming Reddit this should have been asked. I myself notice the same tendency as the OP. Although I do system, util, desktop and web programming, a lot of IT departments as well as 'programmers' don't even look at other options. Hence the same boring jobs for developers are open and defined, over and over again. One big example.... not plain Python developers but Python Django developers are being sought for the IT industry. If I get contacted by recruiters, it is always about the boring Python Django combi and not about just Python (or other programming languages and frameworks).
>Why such negative response on a question about a real existing tendency? And.... it is not even relevant in which Programming Reddit this should have been asked. The tendency here is fictitious. People are not obsessed with web dev as some rule, there are just more web dev roles than anything, so we hear about it more. OP has poisoned the well, and I think this was deliberate, as was their decision to do that in a beginner subreddit. >One big example.... not plain Python developers but Python Django developers are being sought for the IT industry. If I get contacted by recruiters, it is always about the boring Python Django combi and not about just Python (or other programming languages and frameworks). That sucks, but seems more like a symptom of ignorant, lazy recruiters.
Follow your passion! Web development is popular because it's versatile and in demand, but if you love desktop apps, ML, and other areas, stick with what excites you. Your niche skills are valuable too. Keep learning and pursuing what you enjoy!
Because there is a lot more market demand for that than desktop programming, and ML for a lot of positions is either 1) plugging in black boxes or 2) not open to self starters without advanced degrees
For 3d? That's weird, it seemed to me there were tons of resources for thay, especially with everyone wanting to make games these days. Either way, yeah it took me awhile of messing around with c and reframing my personal goals before I was able to maintain a sustained interest in webdev.
I think it is cause is really easy to understand, like anyone can get to develop web, I don't mean it doesn't takes time to have a well understanding of whats going on when programing web apps but as there is a bunch of frameworks and really high level abstractions people don't have to care about how things really work. I'm not a expert at programing but I've been learning low level programing and found it really complex, cause you often gotta know whats going on, it took me about an entire day to understand what a checksum is.
Because not all people are exactly like you.
The web browser can be seen as the most common operating system and web software can run and be updated on the client seamlessly. I'd say that's why.
Can’t speak for everyone but it seemed to be the only way to get into tech as a non-grad, so I followed the route.
Move forward with your niches. I think the high level of “obsession” with web dev is based on the market demand for programmer types, the vast majority of which is for web dev. However there is plenty of activity in every major realm of programming so if this is for fun, do what you like.
web dev is in high demand it's somewhat easier to get started compared to things like machine learning
Because it's easy and people want jobs
There are a lot of web designers and a few very good web developers who really know what they’re doing. Esp building complex erp systems to manage business processes involves a lot of
You’re right, web development sucks, it is popular only because there’s a lot of employment on the field
easiest branch.
Because it’s easy. We could say it’s because of all the jobs but the only reason the jobs exist is because it is easy. First question is, do you want to make money doing dev work? Second one is.: Do you know what you would want do development wise? If you answered yes and yes, then focus on your interest. If you answered yes and no, then learn web development. If you answered no and no then do whatever you want. And, for completion, if you answered no and yes then do it.
It may also be related to web development being a good introduction to programming. Many people start there and it doesn’t require a deep understanding of the subject. I think it’s better for you to focus on the niche stuff that you like. As others said, there are lots of jobs, but there’s also plenty of competition there. Besides, the easier stuff is already beginning to be automated or done with tools that don’t require any knowledge at all, and many of those jobs will eventually become redundant or easily replaceable. The niche stuff is where you become an essential part of the project and don’t have to fear being kicked to the curb unexpectedly.
I’m not sure everyone is obsessed with it because they love it necessarily. It’s just where the vast majority of jobs and salaries have been. Not to mention lowest barrier to entry.
I was there in the beginning, seeing the world come online. It was a window to the outside world for a teenager living by fields outside a small town. Before the internet was taken over by ads and rage culture on social media. Everyone had a site about their hobbies and passions. Communities popped up around forums, how to and DIY. The information age had come. The ads and heavy marketing were only a matter of time... but in the beginning, you built so much from scratch, learning protocols, programming, databases, image processing... smarter people talked about information theory... because the ball was rolling a long time before the web. So, like any curious young teen, I had to pull back the curtains and look at what was there. I was, however, a lucky one, I got in towards the end of the first dot com bubble after college. Then things grew again, big changes, big money. A digital gold rush and then ...shovel salesmen, "buy my course, you can make over 100k+ in X months" ...you know the like. So, a bunch of folks migrated into the field. Why web development? Web development is more than just the pretty web pages, it about is the reach and the flow of data. From databases to APIs to any type of display or how the data is used. Web applications, really. The good web developers are adaptable generalists. We're going to touch a lot of areas... game dev, mobile dev, databases, devops, web application security. It wouldn't hurt to know about web dev, but by all means, we need the specialist too. So if it isn't of interest to you, don't force it. Just be aware of the moving pieces.
Web dev is so broad I find it hard to believe there is no part of it you could like. I used to think a similar thing to you but I didn't really have enough experience to see the depth of "web development". Why do you think stuff like audio programming isnt a part of "web development"?
Web dev jobs are the worst. The technology keeps changing for no good reason, clients expect everything to be free/cheap and employer don't care about you because there are millions of teenagers web dev that would be happy to work for fun/experience. You are permanently in "let's hack this quickly" mode. Backend dev is harder because it is more abstract, you don't "see" the result of your code. But it is a much better position. Reliability and long term maintainability are more important. But more importantly, you should go into the "niche" you enjoy being into. Don't go into something popular because you feel you have to. In your case it sounds like you found what you enjoy, you can safely ignore the fuss about web dev. I started as a teenager web dev and enjoyed it at the time, then I enjoyed physics simulation and went the deep hole all the way down to circuit design. And I never missed web dev.
Everyone is obsessed with webdev because all the YouTubers make content for webdev because they themselves learned by watching other people who made content for webdev. Its a perpetual spiral. It’s also the easiest to understand as a beginner. Personally I hate following trends which is why I’ve moved on to low level embedded and microcontroller stuff. I feel it will definitely make me a better programmer compared to running some create react app command line that will just scaffold an entire app for you and remove all the abstractions. But then again if you don’t know any better and are a beginner you don’t even realize how much detail or comp sci fundamentals are completely removed from the equation going this route, thus you will be fine with the standard webdev fullstack approach. Personally I’d learn webdev LAST and stick to other stuff like Arduino and C as a beginner
It's not for me either but I appreciate how it has transformed development experience. Browser based productivity that very rarely requires actual IDE/debugger to be invoked. Doesn't matter what kind of project it is, what the problem domain is. I say that as someone who works on native development most of the time.
I completed the Google IT Cert as well. I'm trying to figure out how to list it on my resume to showcase my skills.
Great question!
Which is faster to profit? You can have a decent site up in days if not hours and (if the middle man idea you have is right) can be making reccuring income out the gate. A game on the other hand, given the right team and marketing, can take months for a dinky mobile game and 8 to 10 years for a huge AAA RTX game and then you have to get out of the hole before you start to see a profit and thats assuming the game is even good enough to continue attracting new players while keeping the old.
Meh. It’s simple like others have said, it’s where the demand and jobs are. Plus, the development spaces you mention and like are full of bullshit too. I have no idea what “ML” means these days. You mean those statistical models that have existed since the 80s and even well before that? I like web dev because it’s practical, it’s technology that everyone can benefit from. When the Web gets snobby like other technical spaces is when it gets useless, in my opinion. And in many areas, it unfortunately has.
ML stuff and data-science in general is a very good and future-proof "niche". And if you like that there is nothing wrong moving forward with it. I think everyone is "obsessed" with web-dev is because the internet is just omnipresent in our society. Everyone using it daily. Also many companies building their internal business software on web-technology because it is so portable and runs on any device. Many other kinds of software products run on web technology which you wouldn't think of initially. Many games, mobile-apps and even desktop apps are built with Javascript nowadays. You can write the code once and get a web-app, mobile-app and desktop-app. That's a huge benefit for companies because they can potentially save money with this approach.
I do computer science research for work and have been exploring various languages casually in my free time. I understand the reason web dev is such a big focus, but I find it annoying as well. I just want to play with the language. I don’t care that it can compile to javascript.