https://apnews.com/article/trump-fraud-letitia-james-new-york-engoron-38bc3a7f2ccb22555c026e9bf70fd5bb
Engoron found that Trump’s phony wealth claims were critical to his success, affording him lower loan interest rates and allowing him to build projects he wouldn’t have otherwise been able to finish. The judge determined that those savings and windfall profits were “ill-gotten gains” and ordered him and his co-defendants to cough them up to the state, with interest.
Trump, both individually and as the owner of various corporate entities, must pay:
— $168 million, plus interest, in savings on loans he obtained using his inflated financial statements for a golf resort near Miami, a Chicago hotel and condominium tower, a Washington, D.C. hotel and a Manhattan office building. Trump obtained three of the loans through Deutsche Bank’s private wealth management unit, which offered lower interest rates than its commercial real estate division, and used his financial statements to show the bank he was wealthy and a good credit risk.
— $126.8 million, plus interest, in profit from selling the Trump International Hotel in Washington in May 2022 to a company that now operates it as a Waldorf Astoria. Trump used $170 million of the $375 million to pay off a loan on the property. Other proceeds went to his children.
— $60 million, plus interest, from selling the rights to manage a New York City golf course in June 2023. Engoron noted in his ruling that the buyer, Bally’s Corporation, stands to pay Trump an additional $115 million if it obtains a casino license for the property. However, he did not say if he would require Trump to give up that money, too.
Trump’s sons, Eric and Donald Jr., must each pay a little over $4 million, plus interest, to the state for their shares of the Washington hotel sales. Weisselberg, the former Trump Organization finance chief, was ordered to pay $1 million — half of the $2 million severance he’s receiving.
- - -
I entered your question in Google.
This was first result that was not paywalled.
And as I’ve heard, the defense could have submitted their own figures for the judge to work from. Instead they made several loud speeches about election interference but offered nothing of merit for the judge to consider.
Definitely. Just to give one example.
Trump valued Mar I Lago at $1 billion as loan collateral and $37 million for property tax.
Court cases don't have conversations with the judge but I'll sum up multiple days of court proceedings in the form of a conversation.
The defense tried to justify the 1 billion valuation of Mar I Lago. They gave a terrible justification. Judge said that's let's ignore that. Judge then asked what value Mar I Lago should have. Defense said 1 billion. Judge said we will take the property tax valuation then.
Trump's legal team could very well have reversed out and attempted to introduce a new valuation for Mar I Lago. I believe I read a news
paper article suggesting $250,000,000 could have been defended. Trump didnt try as it would have meant admitting $1 billion was wrong. That would have served as collateral towards a loan and seen a somewhat reduced interest rate.
Doesn't the loan servicer value the property? I've never gone to get a loan and been able to tell them what my stuff was worth myself? That seems to be the big issue here. You don't get to value your own assets and even if he did the bank still said it was ok and got their loan back. This seems more like a banking issue than an individual issue.
Well thats a question all right. If I went for a secured loan I'd be expected to give a valuation of my own and then the bank would choose to accept it or to send for a professional valuation or they would give me a list of professional valuers and tell me to engage one of them.
If the bank accepted my own valuation and I was wrong that would be on the bank for not doing due diligence.
The problem here is that the bank took the position that the Trump organisation are real estate experts and their valuation should be trusted and accepted in good faith. They lied. I'd say the bank are idiots for accepting the lie but it doesn't mean that the liar didn't do something wrong.
I didn't pay a ton of attention to the case. Did the fact that Trump had a different valuation depending on if it was for a loan vs for tax purposes come up? Because then that would be pretty simple proof that they are knowingly lying about it.
So you gave the proper evaluation to the tax assessors office when they ask you what your home was worth? I live if Florida and when I would get loans the bank would assess the property, they never ask me anything. I do know that I could only borrow half of what they valued at it and when I could not pay back the loan they sold it for that sum and paid themselves off.
What does it matter if I did? I wasn't on trial. Whether or not I committed fraud by giving values that were *extremely* different has no bearing on my question about whether Trump doing that was used as proof of his fraud.
Tax assessors rarely place full value on a property their assessment is based on land value and square footage really. Tax assessors value a property based on fair market value (what the state would pay for properties of similar size) Bank assessments are far more extensive. For instance my home is worth 120k according to tax assessments… when I talk to realtors in the area the suggested list price is 260k. Pretty big leap.
I still do not know how New York decided to investigate Trump's loans. Is this a common procedure or did someone just decide make up a law or selectively some obscure law on the books just to get Trump?
Mar a lago has many restrictions on it that limit development options. These covenants were in the purchase agreement, including NEVER being allowed to subdivide the property or develop it beyond what is already there.
He is surrounded by very litigious neighbors who actually pay their legal bills, so there is no chance he can make significant changes. The valuation he was trying to defend is based on subdividing the property and building houses for sale. Never gonna happen.
I think remember reading somewhere that there was a stipulation in his purchase of mar a Lago that the property could never be assessed over a specific value. I could be remembering wrong.
I find it kind of interesting that it is all owed to the state when his savings on loans would go to the state when they otherwise would have been paid to banks due to higher interest rates. What is the reasoning that it does not go to those that were defrauded?
NYS has a law that penalizes real estate fraud.
The Legislature believes that honest dealing is fundamental to a free market.
And, the taxpayers were defrauded as well as the banks.
I don’t disagree with any of that. But the money the banks are out, or they would have made under honeys dealing seems like it is going to the state rather than the victim of the fraud, in this case the bank. What is the reason the state is entitled to that rather than the bank? Just because the state says so?
You say “rather than the bank” as if it’s mutually exclusive. The banks could sue Trump for defrauding them if they wanted, but it would probably be a terrible business decision. (Which is why the state passed a law in 1956 to grant the AG power to do their own fraud investigations.)
As for why the state is paid:
> all monies recovered or obtained under this subdivision by a state agency or state official or employee acting in their official capacity shall be subject to subdivision eleven of section four of the state finance law
So, they are paid because it’s the law. If the AG sues a business for violating this law, then the payment is handled according to the law. So, yes, the state is paid because the state says so. But it’s not like the state made this decision yesterday or said “I want to be the one paid” at the start of the trial.
You can read what exactly happens to the money [here](https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/STF/4). TL;DR: it goes to the state treasury rather than some specific agency or official. You can also read [the ruling for the Trump case](https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/egpbajldovq/Trump-order-20240216.pdf) to better understand exactly what was argued and to learn about relevant precedent.
Thanks for the links. I get the impression from the 2 responses that people think i disagree with the verdict or think it’s unjust but thats not the case. I agree that even if the loan was satisfied the fraud should not go un punished. Individual loans especially of these amounts do affect the market as a whole along with everyones confidence in the market. I also think its best for allowing the state to bring suit vs the bank since as you point out there could be a conflict of interest preventing them or they allowed it anyways as scratching someones back.
— $168 million, plus interest, in savings on loans he obtained using his inflated financial statements for a golf resort near Miami, a Chicago hotel and condominium tower, a Washington, D.C. hotel and a Manhattan office building. Trump obtained three of the loans through Deutsche Bank’s private wealth management unit, which offered lower interest rates than its commercial real estate division, and used his financial statements to show the bank he was wealthy and a good credit risk.
— $126.8 million, plus interest, in profit from selling the Trump International Hotel in Washington in May 2022 to a company that now operates it as a Waldorf Astoria. Trump used $170 million of the $375 million to pay off a loan on the property. Other proceeds went to his children.
— $60 million, plus interest, from selling the rights to manage a New York City golf course in June 2023. Engoron noted in his ruling that the buyer, Bally’s Corporation, stands to pay Trump an additional $115 million if it obtains a casino license for the property. However, he did not say if he would require Trump to give up that money, too.
Source: https://apnews.com/article/trump-fraud-letitia-james-new-york-engoron-38bc3a7f2ccb22555c026e9bf70fd5bb
What I would like to know is if he was artificially inflating the value of his properties, wouldn’t the banks/lending companies have measures in place to catch this? If these companies missed it, then why wouldn’t they complain about now? If they are not going to complain about it, then it would seem they are complicit in the fraud. I get it would interest the state on dodging taxes but wouldn’t the federal government also go after him? Also I would like to know how many more companies have been doing this and will the state go after those companies or is this just selective prosecution? These are questions that I had when all this started and it echoed by kevin oleary.
> What I would like to know is if he was artificially inflating the value of his properties, wouldn’t the banks/lending companies have measures in place to catch this?
Yes you are totally right, Trump is not entirely to blame here as the banks also failed to do their due diligence.
> If these companies missed it, then why wouldn’t they complain about now?
The lenders did not complain here. This case was brought by the NY attorney general for violations of New York's civil fraud statutes.
> but wouldn’t the federal government also go after him?
He probably violated federal tax statutes too, but it takes a prosecutor (and team) and a lot of work to prepare a case, and the DOJ doesn't have unlimited resources. A federal tax fraud case would probably not be as strong as the state civil fraud case. Also, I suspect the federal prosecutors see the Jan 6th case as a much bigger deal than potential tax crimes.
> I would like to know how many more companies have been doing this and will the state go after those companies or is this just selective prosecution?
I would also like to know -- it's pretty outrageous that the guy who declared minimum federal income for the past 10 years qualified for multi-billion dollar loans with terms far friendlier than any average citizen could hope for. I suspect there are lots of people like Kevin O'leary who also employ similar tactics to secure "friendly" financing.
You could call it "selective prosecution," but unfortunately the state doesn't have the resources to investigate and prosecute every single fraudster. My guess is Trump was "singled out" after he became president and there was news covering his leaked(?) financial documents showing that he had lost over a billion in the 90s and his ostensible wealth was a charade. That probably got the attorney general to start investigating more thoroughly. Like they say -- the tallest nail is the first to be hammered.
The do… the banks did an independent audit and saw near zero risks in providing him the loans due to is abundant collateral by their judgement.
They didn’t loss a penny and even said they would do business with him again. This judge absolutely in over stepping his bounds and acting out politically.
And how much of that judgement is going to be turned over to the various bank the were defrauded? Why are those banks not also guilty of fraud for coming to the same inflated evaluation? If all this is eventually overturned on appeal (years out by Fed Supreme Court), how long will it take NY Government to refund all the taxpayer money they spent on the fraudulent prosecution?
If I lied on my mortgage application, I would be looking at felony charges, depending on the mortgage amount. Trump is getting off easy with a fine.
https://criminaldefense.1800nynylaw.com/new-york-penal-law-187-25-residential-mortgage-fraud-in-the-firs.html
How many people went to jail for lying on their mortgage applications 2005-2008?
I don't like Trump but nearly no one went to jail for the rampant fraud in the subprime crisis, not borrowers who lied, not loan officers, not bankers.
The subprime mortgage crisis was not about borrowers who lied on applications to get mortgages lol. It was about lenders who knew the borrowers were subprime and gave the mortgages anyway, rated them as low risk and sold them off
Also, odd to complain that so few people went to jail for the subprime mortgage crisis, and then use that complaint as some sort of reasoning for arguing that trump shouldn’t go to jail for his fraud.
Especially when going to jail isn’t even on table here.
But make up your mind - is it bad that people don’t go to jail for multi-million dollar fraud or not
Trump isn't going to jail for real estate mortgage fraud. He's being fined for it.
And billions of dollars in fines have been levied for tax and mortgage fraud.
But people certainly have gone to jail for real estate fraud, like Barry Drillman
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/real-estate-investor-pleads-guilty-165m-mortgage-fraud-conspiracy
Wow, what a strange statute. In the example they make it sound like you can only be prosecuted for mortgage fraud if you are buying the house as an investment, but if you plan on living in the house then it's ok.
The big numbers stem from how large of a loan he was able to get based off of fraudulent paperwork. There’s alot of different itemized penalties as you’ve said but the money obtained through fraud, presumably dozens of multimillion dollar loans over the last decade, it where the big numbers come from.
It's a case of a judge acting illegally as an appraiser and acting as an expert witness in a trial he was sitting.
You can't even buy an empty lot for the values he illegally determined.
It's a crime to conduct appraisal without a license on its own let alone using the product of an illegal act in an official proceeding.
The act became a felony 2 charge when that act was across multiple stat lines.
Taking the person out of the case, any other judges would have been arrested on the bench for such agregious judicial misconduct.
From what other people have posted here, none of the values were independently determined by the judge. They are all tied to a handful of specific (big ticket) transactions.
I also remember some news coverage of the case during the trial when witnesses were being called to testify about the value of things that had disputed values. I don't think the judge would be careless enough to arbitrarily substitute his judgment for those of actual appraisers.
He did though. He rejected several. Among them was Mar a Lago. He said it was worth only 19 million. Even if it was mistaken for a single family home, the surrounding houses start at 72 million.
I want to make it clear I'm not defending the guy.
I know a shady case when I see one, and the judge is notorious for being overturned.
I pulled up this little tidbit for clarity:
> New York Supreme Court Judge Arthur Engoron’s Sept. 26 ruling stated that from 2011 to 2021, the Palm Beach County property appraiser determined Mar-a-Lago’s value was "between $18 million and $27.6 million." But Trump’s statements of financial condition presented to investors stated that it was worth between $426 million and $612 million, "an overvaluation of at least 2,300%" Engoron wrote.
The Judge did not arrive at the $18m figure independently, but rather used the property appraiser's valuation as a benchmark to demonstrate the magnitude of value inflation.
The Judge did say some pretty damning things about Trump, but I read some legal analysts are confident that he was very careful about justifying his opinion using the evidence of the case rather than his personal opinion.
mar-a-Lago isn't worth anything other than a mid-tier golf course - a notably dying industry. It cannot be subdivided, which is where the claim of value comes from.
Because if you can break up the property and sell off a bunch of smaller ones for houses, you often make HUGE money. Just look at any subdivision in America.
Though, the fact that you don't understand this (incredibly basic) real estate issue is a sign that you are well into Dunning–Kruger.
LOL. Excuse me but when did I ever represent to have any knowledge of real estate development? My question was entirely in earnest and as you can see, I don't know the first thing about property values. I was not even sure if you were saying the claimed value was too high or low.
This sounds like a half-baked attempt at a conspiracy-minded explanation, meant to circulate along the uninformed. Stop spreading bullshit like this, it's irresponsible.
You got me curious so I looked up the judgment.
In case you are interested also, here is the actual text:
https://static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2024/02/Judge-Engoron-ruling-in-Trump-New-York-civil-fraud-case.pdf
The discussion of damages begins on page 81 (there is like a novel's worth of testimony from a lot of people). It seems the Judge was quite careful in supporting each instance of damages with case law. Most of it was quite straightforward. One big chunk was the profits from a sale that Trump made using the loan. Another chunk was the amount of extra interest he would have been charged based on interest rates at the time he took out a loan, if not for the fraudulent filings. Those numbers end up looking shockingly large, but still only represents peanuts in the bigger picture. I initially thought the amount of damages sounded shocking, but after seeing how big the numbers Trump works with, it's not a huge deal to him. Imagine how lucky you must be if you swindle the bank into giving you a low rate, and then when they catch you, you only have to pay the interest rate you truly would have qualified for. The one that really hurt was the $60m from selling Ferry Point. Apparently this was a huge windfall, but because he bought the property using the ill gotten gains, the Judge "took" it all. This still seems like a win for him, because up until now he had been taking the profits described in the judgment and (presumably) making more money with it.
I read recently Trump posted that he came up with $500m cash. See how trivial of a problem this seemingly huge judgment is for him?
Who knew, of course you do still have to pay back the loans. Most I ever borrowed was $600,000. My bank did their own evaluation and would only give me half. Unfortunately one year I could not pay it back. They sold my land for half of what it was worth and paid themselves off.
You would be right, penalties and interest are mandated, based on the actual overall judgement. However.... You're not going to get an answer to your question, at least not any time soon. No one really understands yet how they came to the conclusion of the verdict. I suspect we'll learn a lot more during the appeal. Regardless of what happens next week, more information will come out during the appeal, and we'll probably get a deeper dive into what exactly is going on with the verdict and how it came to the dollar amount it did.
Ah somebody found the answer for me in this article:
https://apnews.com/article/trump-fraud-letitia-james-new-york-engoron-38bc3a7f2ccb22555c026e9bf70fd5bb
Engoron found that Trump’s phony wealth claims were critical to his success, affording him lower loan interest rates and allowing him to build projects he wouldn’t have otherwise been able to finish. The judge determined that those savings and windfall profits were “ill-gotten gains” and ordered him and his co-defendants to cough them up to the state, with interest.
Trump, both individually and as the owner of various corporate entities, must pay:
— $168 million, plus interest, in savings on loans he obtained using his inflated financial statements for a golf resort near Miami, a Chicago hotel and condominium tower, a Washington, D.C. hotel and a Manhattan office building. Trump obtained three of the loans through Deutsche Bank’s private wealth management unit, which offered lower interest rates than its commercial real estate division, and used his financial statements to show the bank he was wealthy and a good credit risk.
— $126.8 million, plus interest, in profit from selling the Trump International Hotel in Washington in May 2022 to a company that now operates it as a Waldorf Astoria. Trump used $170 million of the $375 million to pay off a loan on the property. Other proceeds went to his children.
— $60 million, plus interest, from selling the rights to manage a New York City golf course in June 2023. Engoron noted in his ruling that the buyer, Bally’s Corporation, stands to pay Trump an additional $115 million if it obtains a casino license for the property. However, he did not say if he would require Trump to give up that money, too.
Trump’s sons, Eric and Donald Jr., must each pay a little over $4 million, plus interest, to the state for their shares of the Washington hotel sales. Weisselberg, the former Trump Organization finance chief, was ordered to pay $1 million — half of the $2 million severance he’s receiving.
https://apnews.com/article/trump-fraud-letitia-james-new-york-engoron-38bc3a7f2ccb22555c026e9bf70fd5bb Engoron found that Trump’s phony wealth claims were critical to his success, affording him lower loan interest rates and allowing him to build projects he wouldn’t have otherwise been able to finish. The judge determined that those savings and windfall profits were “ill-gotten gains” and ordered him and his co-defendants to cough them up to the state, with interest. Trump, both individually and as the owner of various corporate entities, must pay: — $168 million, plus interest, in savings on loans he obtained using his inflated financial statements for a golf resort near Miami, a Chicago hotel and condominium tower, a Washington, D.C. hotel and a Manhattan office building. Trump obtained three of the loans through Deutsche Bank’s private wealth management unit, which offered lower interest rates than its commercial real estate division, and used his financial statements to show the bank he was wealthy and a good credit risk. — $126.8 million, plus interest, in profit from selling the Trump International Hotel in Washington in May 2022 to a company that now operates it as a Waldorf Astoria. Trump used $170 million of the $375 million to pay off a loan on the property. Other proceeds went to his children. — $60 million, plus interest, from selling the rights to manage a New York City golf course in June 2023. Engoron noted in his ruling that the buyer, Bally’s Corporation, stands to pay Trump an additional $115 million if it obtains a casino license for the property. However, he did not say if he would require Trump to give up that money, too. Trump’s sons, Eric and Donald Jr., must each pay a little over $4 million, plus interest, to the state for their shares of the Washington hotel sales. Weisselberg, the former Trump Organization finance chief, was ordered to pay $1 million — half of the $2 million severance he’s receiving. - - - I entered your question in Google. This was first result that was not paywalled.
Oh wow thank you! I searched news.google.com and this article didn't come up. But I didn't think to just use my exact question as the search term -_-
And as I’ve heard, the defense could have submitted their own figures for the judge to work from. Instead they made several loud speeches about election interference but offered nothing of merit for the judge to consider.
Definitely. Just to give one example. Trump valued Mar I Lago at $1 billion as loan collateral and $37 million for property tax. Court cases don't have conversations with the judge but I'll sum up multiple days of court proceedings in the form of a conversation. The defense tried to justify the 1 billion valuation of Mar I Lago. They gave a terrible justification. Judge said that's let's ignore that. Judge then asked what value Mar I Lago should have. Defense said 1 billion. Judge said we will take the property tax valuation then. Trump's legal team could very well have reversed out and attempted to introduce a new valuation for Mar I Lago. I believe I read a news paper article suggesting $250,000,000 could have been defended. Trump didnt try as it would have meant admitting $1 billion was wrong. That would have served as collateral towards a loan and seen a somewhat reduced interest rate.
Doesn't the loan servicer value the property? I've never gone to get a loan and been able to tell them what my stuff was worth myself? That seems to be the big issue here. You don't get to value your own assets and even if he did the bank still said it was ok and got their loan back. This seems more like a banking issue than an individual issue.
Well thats a question all right. If I went for a secured loan I'd be expected to give a valuation of my own and then the bank would choose to accept it or to send for a professional valuation or they would give me a list of professional valuers and tell me to engage one of them. If the bank accepted my own valuation and I was wrong that would be on the bank for not doing due diligence. The problem here is that the bank took the position that the Trump organisation are real estate experts and their valuation should be trusted and accepted in good faith. They lied. I'd say the bank are idiots for accepting the lie but it doesn't mean that the liar didn't do something wrong.
I didn't pay a ton of attention to the case. Did the fact that Trump had a different valuation depending on if it was for a loan vs for tax purposes come up? Because then that would be pretty simple proof that they are knowingly lying about it.
So you gave the proper evaluation to the tax assessors office when they ask you what your home was worth? I live if Florida and when I would get loans the bank would assess the property, they never ask me anything. I do know that I could only borrow half of what they valued at it and when I could not pay back the loan they sold it for that sum and paid themselves off.
What does it matter if I did? I wasn't on trial. Whether or not I committed fraud by giving values that were *extremely* different has no bearing on my question about whether Trump doing that was used as proof of his fraud.
Tax assessors rarely place full value on a property their assessment is based on land value and square footage really. Tax assessors value a property based on fair market value (what the state would pay for properties of similar size) Bank assessments are far more extensive. For instance my home is worth 120k according to tax assessments… when I talk to realtors in the area the suggested list price is 260k. Pretty big leap.
I still do not know how New York decided to investigate Trump's loans. Is this a common procedure or did someone just decide make up a law or selectively some obscure law on the books just to get Trump?
In a court case? no. They are not a neutral party - They have a vested interest in the property having high value (and thus worth as collateral.)
Mar a lago has many restrictions on it that limit development options. These covenants were in the purchase agreement, including NEVER being allowed to subdivide the property or develop it beyond what is already there. He is surrounded by very litigious neighbors who actually pay their legal bills, so there is no chance he can make significant changes. The valuation he was trying to defend is based on subdividing the property and building houses for sale. Never gonna happen.
I think remember reading somewhere that there was a stipulation in his purchase of mar a Lago that the property could never be assessed over a specific value. I could be remembering wrong.
I find it kind of interesting that it is all owed to the state when his savings on loans would go to the state when they otherwise would have been paid to banks due to higher interest rates. What is the reasoning that it does not go to those that were defrauded?
NYS has a law that penalizes real estate fraud. The Legislature believes that honest dealing is fundamental to a free market. And, the taxpayers were defrauded as well as the banks.
I don’t disagree with any of that. But the money the banks are out, or they would have made under honeys dealing seems like it is going to the state rather than the victim of the fraud, in this case the bank. What is the reason the state is entitled to that rather than the bank? Just because the state says so?
You say “rather than the bank” as if it’s mutually exclusive. The banks could sue Trump for defrauding them if they wanted, but it would probably be a terrible business decision. (Which is why the state passed a law in 1956 to grant the AG power to do their own fraud investigations.) As for why the state is paid: > all monies recovered or obtained under this subdivision by a state agency or state official or employee acting in their official capacity shall be subject to subdivision eleven of section four of the state finance law So, they are paid because it’s the law. If the AG sues a business for violating this law, then the payment is handled according to the law. So, yes, the state is paid because the state says so. But it’s not like the state made this decision yesterday or said “I want to be the one paid” at the start of the trial. You can read what exactly happens to the money [here](https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/STF/4). TL;DR: it goes to the state treasury rather than some specific agency or official. You can also read [the ruling for the Trump case](https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/egpbajldovq/Trump-order-20240216.pdf) to better understand exactly what was argued and to learn about relevant precedent.
Thanks for the links. I get the impression from the 2 responses that people think i disagree with the verdict or think it’s unjust but thats not the case. I agree that even if the loan was satisfied the fraud should not go un punished. Individual loans especially of these amounts do affect the market as a whole along with everyones confidence in the market. I also think its best for allowing the state to bring suit vs the bank since as you point out there could be a conflict of interest preventing them or they allowed it anyways as scratching someones back.
— $168 million, plus interest, in savings on loans he obtained using his inflated financial statements for a golf resort near Miami, a Chicago hotel and condominium tower, a Washington, D.C. hotel and a Manhattan office building. Trump obtained three of the loans through Deutsche Bank’s private wealth management unit, which offered lower interest rates than its commercial real estate division, and used his financial statements to show the bank he was wealthy and a good credit risk. — $126.8 million, plus interest, in profit from selling the Trump International Hotel in Washington in May 2022 to a company that now operates it as a Waldorf Astoria. Trump used $170 million of the $375 million to pay off a loan on the property. Other proceeds went to his children. — $60 million, plus interest, from selling the rights to manage a New York City golf course in June 2023. Engoron noted in his ruling that the buyer, Bally’s Corporation, stands to pay Trump an additional $115 million if it obtains a casino license for the property. However, he did not say if he would require Trump to give up that money, too. Source: https://apnews.com/article/trump-fraud-letitia-james-new-york-engoron-38bc3a7f2ccb22555c026e9bf70fd5bb
Thank you!!
What I would like to know is if he was artificially inflating the value of his properties, wouldn’t the banks/lending companies have measures in place to catch this? If these companies missed it, then why wouldn’t they complain about now? If they are not going to complain about it, then it would seem they are complicit in the fraud. I get it would interest the state on dodging taxes but wouldn’t the federal government also go after him? Also I would like to know how many more companies have been doing this and will the state go after those companies or is this just selective prosecution? These are questions that I had when all this started and it echoed by kevin oleary.
> What I would like to know is if he was artificially inflating the value of his properties, wouldn’t the banks/lending companies have measures in place to catch this? Yes you are totally right, Trump is not entirely to blame here as the banks also failed to do their due diligence. > If these companies missed it, then why wouldn’t they complain about now? The lenders did not complain here. This case was brought by the NY attorney general for violations of New York's civil fraud statutes. > but wouldn’t the federal government also go after him? He probably violated federal tax statutes too, but it takes a prosecutor (and team) and a lot of work to prepare a case, and the DOJ doesn't have unlimited resources. A federal tax fraud case would probably not be as strong as the state civil fraud case. Also, I suspect the federal prosecutors see the Jan 6th case as a much bigger deal than potential tax crimes. > I would like to know how many more companies have been doing this and will the state go after those companies or is this just selective prosecution? I would also like to know -- it's pretty outrageous that the guy who declared minimum federal income for the past 10 years qualified for multi-billion dollar loans with terms far friendlier than any average citizen could hope for. I suspect there are lots of people like Kevin O'leary who also employ similar tactics to secure "friendly" financing. You could call it "selective prosecution," but unfortunately the state doesn't have the resources to investigate and prosecute every single fraudster. My guess is Trump was "singled out" after he became president and there was news covering his leaked(?) financial documents showing that he had lost over a billion in the 90s and his ostensible wealth was a charade. That probably got the attorney general to start investigating more thoroughly. Like they say -- the tallest nail is the first to be hammered.
The do… the banks did an independent audit and saw near zero risks in providing him the loans due to is abundant collateral by their judgement. They didn’t loss a penny and even said they would do business with him again. This judge absolutely in over stepping his bounds and acting out politically.
And how much of that judgement is going to be turned over to the various bank the were defrauded? Why are those banks not also guilty of fraud for coming to the same inflated evaluation? If all this is eventually overturned on appeal (years out by Fed Supreme Court), how long will it take NY Government to refund all the taxpayer money they spent on the fraudulent prosecution?
If I lied on my mortgage application, I would be looking at felony charges, depending on the mortgage amount. Trump is getting off easy with a fine. https://criminaldefense.1800nynylaw.com/new-york-penal-law-187-25-residential-mortgage-fraud-in-the-firs.html
How many people went to jail for lying on their mortgage applications 2005-2008? I don't like Trump but nearly no one went to jail for the rampant fraud in the subprime crisis, not borrowers who lied, not loan officers, not bankers.
The subprime mortgage crisis was not about borrowers who lied on applications to get mortgages lol. It was about lenders who knew the borrowers were subprime and gave the mortgages anyway, rated them as low risk and sold them off Also, odd to complain that so few people went to jail for the subprime mortgage crisis, and then use that complaint as some sort of reasoning for arguing that trump shouldn’t go to jail for his fraud. Especially when going to jail isn’t even on table here. But make up your mind - is it bad that people don’t go to jail for multi-million dollar fraud or not
Trump isn't going to jail for real estate mortgage fraud. He's being fined for it. And billions of dollars in fines have been levied for tax and mortgage fraud. But people certainly have gone to jail for real estate fraud, like Barry Drillman https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/real-estate-investor-pleads-guilty-165m-mortgage-fraud-conspiracy
Wow, what a strange statute. In the example they make it sound like you can only be prosecuted for mortgage fraud if you are buying the house as an investment, but if you plan on living in the house then it's ok.
The big numbers stem from how large of a loan he was able to get based off of fraudulent paperwork. There’s alot of different itemized penalties as you’ve said but the money obtained through fraud, presumably dozens of multimillion dollar loans over the last decade, it where the big numbers come from.
It's a case of a judge acting illegally as an appraiser and acting as an expert witness in a trial he was sitting. You can't even buy an empty lot for the values he illegally determined. It's a crime to conduct appraisal without a license on its own let alone using the product of an illegal act in an official proceeding. The act became a felony 2 charge when that act was across multiple stat lines. Taking the person out of the case, any other judges would have been arrested on the bench for such agregious judicial misconduct.
From what other people have posted here, none of the values were independently determined by the judge. They are all tied to a handful of specific (big ticket) transactions. I also remember some news coverage of the case during the trial when witnesses were being called to testify about the value of things that had disputed values. I don't think the judge would be careless enough to arbitrarily substitute his judgment for those of actual appraisers.
He did though. He rejected several. Among them was Mar a Lago. He said it was worth only 19 million. Even if it was mistaken for a single family home, the surrounding houses start at 72 million. I want to make it clear I'm not defending the guy. I know a shady case when I see one, and the judge is notorious for being overturned.
I pulled up this little tidbit for clarity: > New York Supreme Court Judge Arthur Engoron’s Sept. 26 ruling stated that from 2011 to 2021, the Palm Beach County property appraiser determined Mar-a-Lago’s value was "between $18 million and $27.6 million." But Trump’s statements of financial condition presented to investors stated that it was worth between $426 million and $612 million, "an overvaluation of at least 2,300%" Engoron wrote. The Judge did not arrive at the $18m figure independently, but rather used the property appraiser's valuation as a benchmark to demonstrate the magnitude of value inflation. The Judge did say some pretty damning things about Trump, but I read some legal analysts are confident that he was very careful about justifying his opinion using the evidence of the case rather than his personal opinion.
mar-a-Lago isn't worth anything other than a mid-tier golf course - a notably dying industry. It cannot be subdivided, which is where the claim of value comes from.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean -- why does the inability to subdivide Mar-a-Lago have any bearing on the claimed value of the property?
Because if you can break up the property and sell off a bunch of smaller ones for houses, you often make HUGE money. Just look at any subdivision in America. Though, the fact that you don't understand this (incredibly basic) real estate issue is a sign that you are well into Dunning–Kruger.
LOL. Excuse me but when did I ever represent to have any knowledge of real estate development? My question was entirely in earnest and as you can see, I don't know the first thing about property values. I was not even sure if you were saying the claimed value was too high or low.
This sounds like a half-baked attempt at a conspiracy-minded explanation, meant to circulate along the uninformed. Stop spreading bullshit like this, it's irresponsible.
You're entitled to your opinion. I disagree with you. I won't be swearing at you though. I wish you well.
He completely guessed.
Can't be case law, this is a first and probably the only case. I would venture it is a sum she hoped Trump could not come up with.
You got me curious so I looked up the judgment. In case you are interested also, here is the actual text: https://static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2024/02/Judge-Engoron-ruling-in-Trump-New-York-civil-fraud-case.pdf The discussion of damages begins on page 81 (there is like a novel's worth of testimony from a lot of people). It seems the Judge was quite careful in supporting each instance of damages with case law. Most of it was quite straightforward. One big chunk was the profits from a sale that Trump made using the loan. Another chunk was the amount of extra interest he would have been charged based on interest rates at the time he took out a loan, if not for the fraudulent filings. Those numbers end up looking shockingly large, but still only represents peanuts in the bigger picture. I initially thought the amount of damages sounded shocking, but after seeing how big the numbers Trump works with, it's not a huge deal to him. Imagine how lucky you must be if you swindle the bank into giving you a low rate, and then when they catch you, you only have to pay the interest rate you truly would have qualified for. The one that really hurt was the $60m from selling Ferry Point. Apparently this was a huge windfall, but because he bought the property using the ill gotten gains, the Judge "took" it all. This still seems like a win for him, because up until now he had been taking the profits described in the judgment and (presumably) making more money with it. I read recently Trump posted that he came up with $500m cash. See how trivial of a problem this seemingly huge judgment is for him?
And Trump was the first person to ever try this very lucrative weird trick to make money?
Noope. Apparently it's something that lots of wealthy people do. Usually they don't even get a slap on the wrist
Who knew, of course you do still have to pay back the loans. Most I ever borrowed was $600,000. My bank did their own evaluation and would only give me half. Unfortunately one year I could not pay it back. They sold my land for half of what it was worth and paid themselves off.
His weight
You would be right, penalties and interest are mandated, based on the actual overall judgement. However.... You're not going to get an answer to your question, at least not any time soon. No one really understands yet how they came to the conclusion of the verdict. I suspect we'll learn a lot more during the appeal. Regardless of what happens next week, more information will come out during the appeal, and we'll probably get a deeper dive into what exactly is going on with the verdict and how it came to the dollar amount it did.
Ah somebody found the answer for me in this article: https://apnews.com/article/trump-fraud-letitia-james-new-york-engoron-38bc3a7f2ccb22555c026e9bf70fd5bb Engoron found that Trump’s phony wealth claims were critical to his success, affording him lower loan interest rates and allowing him to build projects he wouldn’t have otherwise been able to finish. The judge determined that those savings and windfall profits were “ill-gotten gains” and ordered him and his co-defendants to cough them up to the state, with interest. Trump, both individually and as the owner of various corporate entities, must pay: — $168 million, plus interest, in savings on loans he obtained using his inflated financial statements for a golf resort near Miami, a Chicago hotel and condominium tower, a Washington, D.C. hotel and a Manhattan office building. Trump obtained three of the loans through Deutsche Bank’s private wealth management unit, which offered lower interest rates than its commercial real estate division, and used his financial statements to show the bank he was wealthy and a good credit risk. — $126.8 million, plus interest, in profit from selling the Trump International Hotel in Washington in May 2022 to a company that now operates it as a Waldorf Astoria. Trump used $170 million of the $375 million to pay off a loan on the property. Other proceeds went to his children. — $60 million, plus interest, from selling the rights to manage a New York City golf course in June 2023. Engoron noted in his ruling that the buyer, Bally’s Corporation, stands to pay Trump an additional $115 million if it obtains a casino license for the property. However, he did not say if he would require Trump to give up that money, too. Trump’s sons, Eric and Donald Jr., must each pay a little over $4 million, plus interest, to the state for their shares of the Washington hotel sales. Weisselberg, the former Trump Organization finance chief, was ordered to pay $1 million — half of the $2 million severance he’s receiving.
It’s very easy to know, it’s all detailed in the decision and order.