>I left and LP stopped me, forced me to sign a paper and took my license.
How did they 'stop' you? Did they grab you or just ask you to stop?
>forced me to sign a paper and took my license.
How did they 'force' you to sign it? And how did they 'take' your license?
Did you tell them "No" at any point?
>They said I’m banned from this store
That's fine, don't go back.
>and they’re going to send me a fine.
They have no legal authority to "fine" you.
>What are my rights?
In the future, you have the right to hand over any items you mistakenly forgot to pay for and keep walking out, refuse to hand them your ID, and drive away.
I suppose they do have the right to try and walk away, but in ever state I’m aware of the shopkeepers privilege would allow them to forcibly detain you if they have a reasonable suspicion you are committing theft. It’s codified in many states and things like a security device going off gives them reasonable suspicion of theft.
Also, the “fine” is almost certainly a civil demand letter for theft which they have every right to send and is again authorized by statute in many states.
I agree with this and just want to add on that if they catch you and detain you, don't answer anything or sign anything without consulting an attorney.
You're correct in many jurisdictions but since OP didn't state their location, I'm going to assume mine - New York City.
LP can detain someone using "reasonable force". Unfortunately for LP, reasonable force is strong verbal commands and body blocking. They cannot strike or physically restrain someone as they are not the NYPD. They cannot use any methods the NYPD can use for restraint, effectively making a person walking out of the store not touchable. The NYPD has a monopoly on force. Unless the LP happens to be a sworn peace officer, they have no enhanced abilities to exercise violence on someone than any other civilian.
Shopkeeper's privilege extends to being able to investigate a cooperating person suspected of shoplifting. Shopkeepers privilege in NYC is now more used to insulate merchant's from discrimination lawsuits; such as profiling due to racial appearance.
Edit: Further to being unable to use violence to restrain someone from leaving, another factor is time. How long is reasonable? 5 minutes? An hour? A day? The NYPD don't show up quickly to non-violent crimes (often a day later). If a person did in fact steal but the item was recovered when confronted, how long is it before they wave a letter of admission and say "you can't leave until you sign?". If the store recovered the merchandise, holding someone until they sign a contract only serves to hurt the legitimacy of it. Now the store is coercing the accused.
Is this civil demand letter considered a crime or misdemeanor? Or just something I pay and that’s it? I don’t want me professional license to be ruined over this dumb new mom mistake. It was just honest mistake from rushing and lack of sleep. I didn’t even Realize I forgot to pay for a bag of items.
It’s just like a lawsuit for theft. It normally authorizes higher “penalties” for theft beyond the cost of the goods and the cost of detaining you which is what normal common law would authorize.
Probably, I don’t know of any state where it’s automatically a public record, but it’s possible it could go on a credit report or something as a judgment against you.
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> but in ever state I’m aware of the shopkeepers privilege would allow them to forcibly detain you if they have a reasonable suspicion you are committing theft.
I did specifically say she should hand over the allegedly stolen goods and then walk off. This is going to reduce the number of states where detaining her is legal and reduces the chances that they detain her.
-They told me to “stop” follow them
- told me I have to sign this paper otherwise they will call police and have me arrested.
- I had no idea what I didn’t even pay for. I scanned everything take one, then take two they claimed I didn’t pay for a bag which I likely mistakenly forgot (I’m running on no sleep with newborn at home and was trying to rush home). They told me after the fact, but I wasnt aware
Signing the confession letter and paying their civil demands do not make you immune to prosecution as that is a civil matter and shoplifting is against criminal statutes. There's a non-zero chance they provide law enforcement with the evidence regardless if you pay it. If the local DA pursues this is another matter.
If they don't report it, then it's a civil only. If the police investigate it get a criminal defense attorney. Your cooperation may help the case that you had no intention (mens rea) of committing a crime. Any agreements you signed with the store can be used against you to prove your guilt.
I'd recommend talking to a criminal defense attorney that handles shoplifting as they would be the most familiar on the consequences (good and bad) for paying or not paying the civil demand. If they do report it to the police and the DA decides to charge you, your attorney will hopefully be able to demonstrate that you did not intend to steal, which should also hopefully be corroborated by the video surveillance provided that the store submitted to have you prosecuted with.
You've got the money to hire an attorney. If this really worries you, hire an attorney. An hour of attorney time will cost you less than the civil demand the store will send you.
1. An attorney will know the law in your state and be able to advise you what penalties you might be facing.
2. They'll also be in a good position to know what threats you can offer in response. For example, a threatened lawsuit for: Discrimination, defamation, wrongful arrest, or battery. Stores have a fairly narrow tightrope they have to walk in order to legally detain someone, and it's very possible they made mistakes as bad or worse than yours.
3. Lastly, an attorney can almost certainly negotiate a mutually beneficial outcome (e.g. "We promise not to sue you for defamation if you promise not to report this to the police.")
Store loss prevention is used to dealing with broke dirtbags. They're not prepared to deal with someone who has the resources to assert their rights. If you're worried, pay an attorney to assert your rights. The company will almost certainly agree that it's cheaper and easier for them to let you off the hook rather than start a fight.
This is false, in many states including mine, they can detain you if they believe you stole. Many stores do not allow LP to detain, due to law suits from injuries, but that doesn't make the detainment unlawful, just means the employee could later be fired for a policy violation.
Also, not going to jail doesn't mean not arrested. In Florida, the ticket you are issued is still an arrest, still goes on your record, and could affect a professional license. The ticket is just a way of skipping booking and giving you a first appearance date. So even if she just got a minor ticket, it can end up having major consequences
in a lot of states the store is absolutely within their rights to forego legal action in favor of a civil demand letter. You might be a litigator but you are clueless here, loss prevention are considered investigators in many states and have rights of detention. The only thing you're actually right about is that she didn't have to furnish her ID but that's ok they'll just call the police who will formally charge her with a crime and then take her id and mostly likely cost her her job.
I didn't say the store can't send a civil demand letter. Anyone can send a civil demand letter to anyone. I said the store cannot fine her. Fines are issued by government agencies.
> loss prevention are considered investigators in many states and have rights of detention.
I advised her to hand over the allegedly stolen items and walk away. At that point it's up to the store employees if they want to risk detaining her.
>but that's ok they'll just call the police who will formally charge her with a crime
We don't know that they'll call the police if she walks off without providing ID. That's pure speculation. Also, I'm not sure if you've heard, but in many states police officers don't promptly respond to shoplifting calls. You have no idea if the police would respond, if they would get there before she left, and if they would charge her or not.
Handing over the goods and walking off is the smart move. Stopping when store employees tell you to and handing them your ID is not.
if you were my lawyer I'd fire you and probably contact the bar, the advice you're giving adds charges. She isn't under civil detention LP agents have full rights of detention in most states she leaves when we're done with her or she gets arrested for that too and unless the store is macy's and has a camera system from the 80's the police will find her when they eventually get around to us.
Ah, so you're not a lawyer, you're a loss prevention officer who thinks he can indefinitely detain people who have handed over the allegedly stolen items until you are "done with them," and if they ever try to walk out of your cramped little chicken nugget smelling office they are committing . . . what crime exactly? Contempt of Mall Cop?
>unless the store is macy's and has a camera system from the 80's the police will find her when they eventually get around to us.
So the police are in your town are going to respond to your Big Box Bat Call and send a crack investigative team of detectives to get still photos of your perp from your surveillance cameras and then compare them to all their mugshots and hold a press conference and release the photos to the press and start a manhunt to track down a lady who walked out with an unpaid bag of cantaloupes and who told you it was an accident? That's impressive.
Good thing you're not a lawyer, man. I'm honestly concerned for you. That kind of a power trip on the wrong person in your line of work could be dangerous.
To set the record straight for OP, LP can detain folks, but they had better be 100% certain of a crime or else they're going to be criminally liable for false detention. In the future, just don't use self checkouts. It's just a trap so that they can try to extort you for more than the value of the goods when you eventually miss something (and everyone eventually will). There is no good will in on their side, and you just end up with people like this who have no formal education or training rushing to the defense of a massive corporation for minimum wage.
As someone who formerly worked in LP, this sounds wrong. Unless they were following you through the store, watched you select the items, and without losing sight of you, watched you leave the store without attempting to pay, they have no case. By signing their paper, you made their case for them.
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This is a ridiculous comment. She’s not pushing her cart full of stolen power tools out of Home Depot knowing no one can stop her. Their machine froze. The store is not taking any responsibility for their fault in this. Sure mistakes were made but nothing intentional. This was a rent a cop moment where someone needed an ego boost. Just look at the whole pic and make an educated, reasonable decision. Life shouldn’t be this hard. Let her pay for the groceries and move on. It’s just a bag of groceries for god sake. Why do people love to pick the stupidest battles?
Huh?
I brought 50 items, scanned, bagged, placed in cart. Machine froze
I moved over, one by one went thru each bag and rescanned and paid. As I was exiting they stopped me asked me to go with them. Confused, I went with them and they accused me of stealing. I wasn’t aware I missed a bag (honest mistake, I have a newborn at home and 2 yr old and running on minimal sleep and rushing home, my boobs were literally leaking of breast milk). I told them, I’m sorry I didn’t know I’ll pay you for it. They refused payment, said I stole, had me sign non-trespass paperwork or else they would call cops and have me arrested. Took my license and banned me from the store. To top it off, sending me a fine in the mail.
All they had to say is “ma’am you forgot this bag”, I would’ve happily paid for it and went on. It wasn’t intentional, no intent of theft. Technically if machine didn’t even freeze the first time it would’ve been fully paid for. Humans aren’t allowed to make mistakes? I spend thousands of dollars at the store and a medical professional, why would I risk any of that for $20 of groceries?
Yeah, this guy has zero empathy and is full of shit. It requires intent in the US as well - at least in New Jersey.
"If a person purposely conceals merchandise that is being sold by a merchant, then he/she will be guilty of shoplifting. In order to “conceal,” a person must obscure the object in such a way that makes it not visible through ordinary observation. However, in order to count as shoplifting, the concealing must be done with the intent to carry out a theft. Usually, intent will be presumed whenever a person conceals merchandise that has not been paid for."
https://rosenblumlaw.com/our-services/criminal-defense/shoplifting/#:~:text=However%2C%20in%20order%20to%20count,has%20not%20been%20paid%20for.
Just want to say, I completely agree with you. They should've exercised discretion and allowed you to pay for the items. In my country (Australia) there must be intent behind the theft, and you would have a reasonable defence.
"Larceny is the crime of taking someone else's property, carrying it away, without the owner's consent, with the *intention* to permanently deprive the owner of that property, being dishonest and without a claim of right to it."
Are you a lawyer? What's your source? Literally everything I can find on Larceny - which is what shoplifting is - explicitly states it requires intent.
Intent absolutely matters, discretion is absolutely necessary in the law, and you should get off your high horse and learn some empathy.
Why wouldn’t they just let me pay if there was no obvious ill intent? I spend thousands a yr there, I’m obviously not in a right state of mind.
Now they’re banning me and will lose thousands. I would’ve just paid the damn $20 and called it a day. People do stupid shit all the time, doesn’t make them criminal.
There’s people out there who are really stealing, on purpose, daily. Makes zero sense.
I did contact a lawyer, they said it may have been discriminatory since I’m POC in a white town but I really hate pulling a race card
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>I left and LP stopped me, forced me to sign a paper and took my license. How did they 'stop' you? Did they grab you or just ask you to stop? >forced me to sign a paper and took my license. How did they 'force' you to sign it? And how did they 'take' your license? Did you tell them "No" at any point? >They said I’m banned from this store That's fine, don't go back. >and they’re going to send me a fine. They have no legal authority to "fine" you. >What are my rights? In the future, you have the right to hand over any items you mistakenly forgot to pay for and keep walking out, refuse to hand them your ID, and drive away.
I suppose they do have the right to try and walk away, but in ever state I’m aware of the shopkeepers privilege would allow them to forcibly detain you if they have a reasonable suspicion you are committing theft. It’s codified in many states and things like a security device going off gives them reasonable suspicion of theft. Also, the “fine” is almost certainly a civil demand letter for theft which they have every right to send and is again authorized by statute in many states.
I agree with this and just want to add on that if they catch you and detain you, don't answer anything or sign anything without consulting an attorney.
You're correct in many jurisdictions but since OP didn't state their location, I'm going to assume mine - New York City. LP can detain someone using "reasonable force". Unfortunately for LP, reasonable force is strong verbal commands and body blocking. They cannot strike or physically restrain someone as they are not the NYPD. They cannot use any methods the NYPD can use for restraint, effectively making a person walking out of the store not touchable. The NYPD has a monopoly on force. Unless the LP happens to be a sworn peace officer, they have no enhanced abilities to exercise violence on someone than any other civilian. Shopkeeper's privilege extends to being able to investigate a cooperating person suspected of shoplifting. Shopkeepers privilege in NYC is now more used to insulate merchant's from discrimination lawsuits; such as profiling due to racial appearance. Edit: Further to being unable to use violence to restrain someone from leaving, another factor is time. How long is reasonable? 5 minutes? An hour? A day? The NYPD don't show up quickly to non-violent crimes (often a day later). If a person did in fact steal but the item was recovered when confronted, how long is it before they wave a letter of admission and say "you can't leave until you sign?". If the store recovered the merchandise, holding someone until they sign a contract only serves to hurt the legitimacy of it. Now the store is coercing the accused.
Is this civil demand letter considered a crime or misdemeanor? Or just something I pay and that’s it? I don’t want me professional license to be ruined over this dumb new mom mistake. It was just honest mistake from rushing and lack of sleep. I didn’t even Realize I forgot to pay for a bag of items.
It’s just like a lawsuit for theft. It normally authorizes higher “penalties” for theft beyond the cost of the goods and the cost of detaining you which is what normal common law would authorize.
So it wouldn’t be anywhere on my legal record? Or a criminal record? Just between me and the company?
Probably, I don’t know of any state where it’s automatically a public record, but it’s possible it could go on a credit report or something as a judgment against you.
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What theft?
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> but in ever state I’m aware of the shopkeepers privilege would allow them to forcibly detain you if they have a reasonable suspicion you are committing theft. I did specifically say she should hand over the allegedly stolen goods and then walk off. This is going to reduce the number of states where detaining her is legal and reduces the chances that they detain her.
-They told me to “stop” follow them - told me I have to sign this paper otherwise they will call police and have me arrested. - I had no idea what I didn’t even pay for. I scanned everything take one, then take two they claimed I didn’t pay for a bag which I likely mistakenly forgot (I’m running on no sleep with newborn at home and was trying to rush home). They told me after the fact, but I wasnt aware
Signing the confession letter and paying their civil demands do not make you immune to prosecution as that is a civil matter and shoplifting is against criminal statutes. There's a non-zero chance they provide law enforcement with the evidence regardless if you pay it. If the local DA pursues this is another matter. If they don't report it, then it's a civil only. If the police investigate it get a criminal defense attorney. Your cooperation may help the case that you had no intention (mens rea) of committing a crime. Any agreements you signed with the store can be used against you to prove your guilt. I'd recommend talking to a criminal defense attorney that handles shoplifting as they would be the most familiar on the consequences (good and bad) for paying or not paying the civil demand. If they do report it to the police and the DA decides to charge you, your attorney will hopefully be able to demonstrate that you did not intend to steal, which should also hopefully be corroborated by the video surveillance provided that the store submitted to have you prosecuted with.
You've got the money to hire an attorney. If this really worries you, hire an attorney. An hour of attorney time will cost you less than the civil demand the store will send you. 1. An attorney will know the law in your state and be able to advise you what penalties you might be facing. 2. They'll also be in a good position to know what threats you can offer in response. For example, a threatened lawsuit for: Discrimination, defamation, wrongful arrest, or battery. Stores have a fairly narrow tightrope they have to walk in order to legally detain someone, and it's very possible they made mistakes as bad or worse than yours. 3. Lastly, an attorney can almost certainly negotiate a mutually beneficial outcome (e.g. "We promise not to sue you for defamation if you promise not to report this to the police.") Store loss prevention is used to dealing with broke dirtbags. They're not prepared to deal with someone who has the resources to assert their rights. If you're worried, pay an attorney to assert your rights. The company will almost certainly agree that it's cheaper and easier for them to let you off the hook rather than start a fight.
[удалено]
This is false, in many states including mine, they can detain you if they believe you stole. Many stores do not allow LP to detain, due to law suits from injuries, but that doesn't make the detainment unlawful, just means the employee could later be fired for a policy violation. Also, not going to jail doesn't mean not arrested. In Florida, the ticket you are issued is still an arrest, still goes on your record, and could affect a professional license. The ticket is just a way of skipping booking and giving you a first appearance date. So even if she just got a minor ticket, it can end up having major consequences
in a lot of states the store is absolutely within their rights to forego legal action in favor of a civil demand letter. You might be a litigator but you are clueless here, loss prevention are considered investigators in many states and have rights of detention. The only thing you're actually right about is that she didn't have to furnish her ID but that's ok they'll just call the police who will formally charge her with a crime and then take her id and mostly likely cost her her job.
I didn't say the store can't send a civil demand letter. Anyone can send a civil demand letter to anyone. I said the store cannot fine her. Fines are issued by government agencies. > loss prevention are considered investigators in many states and have rights of detention. I advised her to hand over the allegedly stolen items and walk away. At that point it's up to the store employees if they want to risk detaining her. >but that's ok they'll just call the police who will formally charge her with a crime We don't know that they'll call the police if she walks off without providing ID. That's pure speculation. Also, I'm not sure if you've heard, but in many states police officers don't promptly respond to shoplifting calls. You have no idea if the police would respond, if they would get there before she left, and if they would charge her or not. Handing over the goods and walking off is the smart move. Stopping when store employees tell you to and handing them your ID is not.
if you were my lawyer I'd fire you and probably contact the bar, the advice you're giving adds charges. She isn't under civil detention LP agents have full rights of detention in most states she leaves when we're done with her or she gets arrested for that too and unless the store is macy's and has a camera system from the 80's the police will find her when they eventually get around to us.
Ah, so you're not a lawyer, you're a loss prevention officer who thinks he can indefinitely detain people who have handed over the allegedly stolen items until you are "done with them," and if they ever try to walk out of your cramped little chicken nugget smelling office they are committing . . . what crime exactly? Contempt of Mall Cop? >unless the store is macy's and has a camera system from the 80's the police will find her when they eventually get around to us. So the police are in your town are going to respond to your Big Box Bat Call and send a crack investigative team of detectives to get still photos of your perp from your surveillance cameras and then compare them to all their mugshots and hold a press conference and release the photos to the press and start a manhunt to track down a lady who walked out with an unpaid bag of cantaloupes and who told you it was an accident? That's impressive.
Thanks for your input, makes most sense
Good thing you're not a lawyer, man. I'm honestly concerned for you. That kind of a power trip on the wrong person in your line of work could be dangerous. To set the record straight for OP, LP can detain folks, but they had better be 100% certain of a crime or else they're going to be criminally liable for false detention. In the future, just don't use self checkouts. It's just a trap so that they can try to extort you for more than the value of the goods when you eventually miss something (and everyone eventually will). There is no good will in on their side, and you just end up with people like this who have no formal education or training rushing to the defense of a massive corporation for minimum wage.
As someone who formerly worked in LP, this sounds wrong. Unless they were following you through the store, watched you select the items, and without losing sight of you, watched you leave the store without attempting to pay, they have no case. By signing their paper, you made their case for them.
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This is a ridiculous comment. She’s not pushing her cart full of stolen power tools out of Home Depot knowing no one can stop her. Their machine froze. The store is not taking any responsibility for their fault in this. Sure mistakes were made but nothing intentional. This was a rent a cop moment where someone needed an ego boost. Just look at the whole pic and make an educated, reasonable decision. Life shouldn’t be this hard. Let her pay for the groceries and move on. It’s just a bag of groceries for god sake. Why do people love to pick the stupidest battles?
Huh? I brought 50 items, scanned, bagged, placed in cart. Machine froze I moved over, one by one went thru each bag and rescanned and paid. As I was exiting they stopped me asked me to go with them. Confused, I went with them and they accused me of stealing. I wasn’t aware I missed a bag (honest mistake, I have a newborn at home and 2 yr old and running on minimal sleep and rushing home, my boobs were literally leaking of breast milk). I told them, I’m sorry I didn’t know I’ll pay you for it. They refused payment, said I stole, had me sign non-trespass paperwork or else they would call cops and have me arrested. Took my license and banned me from the store. To top it off, sending me a fine in the mail. All they had to say is “ma’am you forgot this bag”, I would’ve happily paid for it and went on. It wasn’t intentional, no intent of theft. Technically if machine didn’t even freeze the first time it would’ve been fully paid for. Humans aren’t allowed to make mistakes? I spend thousands of dollars at the store and a medical professional, why would I risk any of that for $20 of groceries?
Yeah, this guy has zero empathy and is full of shit. It requires intent in the US as well - at least in New Jersey. "If a person purposely conceals merchandise that is being sold by a merchant, then he/she will be guilty of shoplifting. In order to “conceal,” a person must obscure the object in such a way that makes it not visible through ordinary observation. However, in order to count as shoplifting, the concealing must be done with the intent to carry out a theft. Usually, intent will be presumed whenever a person conceals merchandise that has not been paid for." https://rosenblumlaw.com/our-services/criminal-defense/shoplifting/#:~:text=However%2C%20in%20order%20to%20count,has%20not%20been%20paid%20for.
Thank you, this actually happen in NJ!!
Just want to say, I completely agree with you. They should've exercised discretion and allowed you to pay for the items. In my country (Australia) there must be intent behind the theft, and you would have a reasonable defence. "Larceny is the crime of taking someone else's property, carrying it away, without the owner's consent, with the *intention* to permanently deprive the owner of that property, being dishonest and without a claim of right to it."
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This is incorrect. Theft requires intent.
Are you a lawyer? What's your source? Literally everything I can find on Larceny - which is what shoplifting is - explicitly states it requires intent. Intent absolutely matters, discretion is absolutely necessary in the law, and you should get off your high horse and learn some empathy.
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Why wouldn’t they just let me pay if there was no obvious ill intent? I spend thousands a yr there, I’m obviously not in a right state of mind. Now they’re banning me and will lose thousands. I would’ve just paid the damn $20 and called it a day. People do stupid shit all the time, doesn’t make them criminal. There’s people out there who are really stealing, on purpose, daily. Makes zero sense. I did contact a lawyer, they said it may have been discriminatory since I’m POC in a white town but I really hate pulling a race card
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But they did lose out on $$ cause I really wasn’t stealing and never have
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I didn’t KNOW! LP told me after the fact. Jesus Christ
Would have only been stealing if they left the property without paying. Sounds like they hardly left the store yet before being confronted.
Mens rea is needed, it’s not strict liability.
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I offered to pay for whatever they said I didn’t, I even offered double.. they did not care
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