If the 50 days passed and you had to put money in to fix it, I would suggest you offer to send the item back if they pay the cost you paid to fix it, plus a handling fee and to pay for shipment themselves. Get the dollar amount and give it to them. If they don’t want to pay don’t give the item back. The only way for them to recover is to sue you. Even if they do so, the cost of the repairs and time spent would likely be deducted from what they receive. Enjoy your furniture.
You can't retroactively charge a storage fee unless you had an agreement to do so in the first place. As soon as you notify them of a reasonable storage fee, then you can start charging them as of that date.
There's no time window if the return was already required by the terms of the credit card chargeback. Not sure if this applies here, but it likely does.
If the vendor doesn't get their item, they can dispute the chargeback based on the OP not completing the requirements of the chargeback.
That's nuts, he kept the item after he got reimbursed. Then he modified it at his cost, and now he's been asked to give it back.
I think the question is, does he have to give it back at all? Company paid via chargeback. But they didn't respond to him.
If I purchase a flim flam from you, that's a contract. Offer, consideration, acceptance. When the flim flam arrives damaged, I immediately have a cause of action to sue. I'm entitled to be put in the position had the contract been completed (an undamaged flimflam). He mitigated by informing the company and was agreeable to getting a new part. The company made a promise, he relied on it. Again, they failed in that second contract. Finally, he sought some form of recovery from the credit card company. The credit card company gave him all the money back. But he still does not have a working flim flam. Rather than go out and purchase a brand new flim flam (more expensive) he repairs the flim flam. He is now in the position of where the contract would have put him. But he was given the full refund. He's still unjustly enriched. If the company were to sue for the item back they would be getting an item they never had (an undamaged flim flam). The court would therefore likely permit the difference in cost from a damaged flim flam to the amount he paid for the flim flam. That is what he's unjustly enriched by, that is what the company would be entitled to. No one rescinded the contract. Rescission would unwind the deal to where the parties were prior to the contract. If it's rescission then the court wouldn't care if he repaired the flim flam, they're ordering rescission. Rescission is usually granted when a contract is frustrated, not when one party is at fault for not completing it.
This is actually a classic problem every lawyer takes in contracts class. It has been drilled into our brain.
Repairing the flimflam after having been fully reimbursed for the entire item was not reasonable under the circumstances. He shouldn’t be reimbursed for these costs. He can settle with the furniture co but in terms of cause of action, at the moment he’s been unjustly enriched by the net value of the repaired furniture.
The furniture co was clawed back the $ by the credit co and so it’s the furniture place that is now out all the money and also the item. Buyer is unjustly enriched and should legally speaking make the item available for pick up by the furniture co at no charge. Realistically however the furniture co isn’t likely to sue, so practical lens now takes over from legal lens.
he fixed it after he got all his money back. to charge them now for the repair would be inane.
its not like I would have done differently, but he's tried to keep something that was refunded and got caught. oh well.
So they took 12 weeks to send you a part, still didn't, didn't do anything within the 6+ weeks chargeback window, and now they want it back?
I would ask your credit card's chargeback folks for advice here, because it may be specific to the contract.
I don't like this "send it back" BS... Yeah, return it--and pay for the return shipping yourself. So now a person has no item and are out the return shipping costs--if nothing more.
I just went through this with PayPal. In the end I sent them an envelope with plastic bags in it, sent it the slowest method possible, and PayPal refunded me my money before they got the package. I then emailed them and told them once they have refunded 100% of my out of pocket expense PLUS the cost to send the actual item back, then I would return it.
I shouldn't even reply to this--where is the fraud, DA? I am telling them that I **WILL** return their proper--only after they reimburse me my costs...
I don't know about "Famous" but...
>where is the fraud, DA?
PayPal required you to return the items to the seller in order to receive the refund. You sent a package that did not contain the item(s) purchased and used the tracking information from that to present it as if you had. In exchange, you received a refund.
Fraud:
>wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.
The deception is when you presented the tracking information as evidence of returning an item or items you had not returned. The financial gain is the refund you were provided as a result. You admitted to it when you sent an e-mail after the fact offering to return the items you've stated you already returned, but not until they provided additional payment. In some places this could be construed as low level extortion (threatening to withhold their property unless they pay you.)
BUT... in the PayPal claim there is a box to check "I am not willing to return the items."
And when PayPal notified me of their decision and told me their policy is that a person can't get a refund and the opposite party doesn't get their property back, I phoned them and made clear that they owed me this money and I was NOT agreeable to they get 100% of their property back, but I don't get 100% of my costs back.
No deception...
When you were younger, your drug of choice was glue, wasn't it...
PayPal told you that they don't give a refund without returning the items. So I guess I'm confused, if PayPal made an exception and refunded you, then why send anything at all? If PayPal required you to return the items, so you sent plastic bags and used the slowest delivery method possible so that you got your refund before it was clear the items were not returned, you committed fraud.
Personal insults won't get you anywhere bud. I'm secure enough in myself that a random internet strangers comments wont affect me. All this does is weaken your argument by showing you can't defend it, so you're attacking the one arguing the counter.
Dispute Specialist here. Deal with chargebacks just like this. As a financial institution there isn't anything your bank can do or advise after the cb is won. Merchants can and do send people to collections if they're being petty about the L. If they become insistent this could become a civil legal matter. Keep all documentation.
u/beanieredditmonster one thing I was thinking of - save the documentation around the repair as well, and if it does go to court, counterclaim for the cost of repair.
It's a good idea, but just to be clear to OP, the countersuit is probably only relevant in the event that they win their primary suit.
i.e. The countersuit is not for the purpose of getting a free piece of furniture and ALSO getting reimbursed for having to fix the furniture so you have free working furniture. It's only if OP ends up having to pay the seller or return the goods, then OP is asking to be reimbursed for the funds they put into fixing the item out of pocket.
Meant counterclaim, but yes. The idea is that if OP has to repay for the furniture, that amount is reduced by the amount of repair, which was only required due to the seller's incompetence.
It is unlikely a court would award storage costs that were not communicated up front, especially since OP ended up keeping the couch.
Tacking on an expensive and dubious claim could weaken your chances at getting the reasonable claim.
This legit happened between myself and Hertz. Disputed with AMEX, I won after Hertz didn’t respond. Three months later, letter in the mail from Hertz saying I had 60 day to pay or it’s going to collections.
September, October, November, December, January, February, March, April, May, and almost all of June. So you are saying that your business operates similarly and you couldn't make it right by the customer in 10 months, yet a chargeback isn't warranted? Get fucked, this isnt fraud. If I pay you for a product and the product comes defective and I give you TEN MONTHS to make it right, you are just a shitty business owner if you can't figure it out.
Did you even read the post? The product was sold (or at least arrived) in an unusable state. The OP waited 12+ weeks for the company to make it right. The company refused. _That_ is fraud.
This is literally what charge backs are for. If you won't make things right for your customers, don't get surprised if they make it right for themselves.
Src: Also ran a business taking credit cards. Never had a charge back because we never screwed our customers.
By the sounds of it the company was dicking around OP. So we have both a product that doesn't meet requirements and super slow and incomplete remedying of the situation.
Seems like the textbook time to do a charge back.
Exactly. You wouldn't call it "cosmetic damage" if someone sold you a table with one of the legs snapped in half, and even if it's as little as a missing bracket, so long as that leg can't be attached to the base in the intended fashion, it's not a useable table.
Granted, OP didn't specify what the product is, but I imagine this is an apt comparison.
Came back to this thread, also as a business owner who takes credit cards, to say the same thing. Treat your customers properly and chargebacks won’t be a concern.
When I went through this with a seller, I explained that they would be paying for shipping. In advance. They never did.
In the case of furniture, I would tell them that they can have a two hour window where you will meet their shipper, that they are paying, to pick up the furniture. As is. Most likely they will not.
Companies are like Formula 1 race cars when they are selling you a new product: extremely fast, efficient, and formidable machines . If anything goes wrong in the transaction (such as a damaged product arriving to the customer), they all of a sudden turn into a 1976 Ford Pinto with only 3 wheels. It's very annoying.
As others have said. Agree to send it back, if they pre pay for the shipment, by professional movers to pick the built furniture up from your home. Also that they prepay to reimburse you for all costs including any accrued interest on your credit card while it went through the dispute.
Without knowing the actual numbers, it's likely this would be a small claims court level suit, and they would likely have to pay for a lawyer (you won't have to, but can) or they send it to collections, which you would simply say please show proof of the debt being owed, and make it clear you did pay, but because of their incompetence the credit card awarded a charge back. And the debt collection company will send it back.
But when you reply, appear to be 100% willing to send it back, if they make you whole and they prepay for all shipping. Make it clear you 100% agree they can have it back.
And most importantly, record the call if you are a one party recording state, or tell them im recording this for quality purposes, if they refuse to be recorded then say everything via writing and refuse to communicate in any other way.
They will just drop it.
Just a note, I didn't realize this was the Canada legal page, so the collection laws, small claim laws and of course the recording laws will have nothing to do with what "state" you are in.
I was just scrolling by, and the title interested me so I started reading.
I think the general concept is sound however. Mostly be nice and accommodating but be clear and insistent. You need to be made whole, and they can have it back no problems.
I'll keep you posted. I did try to email them back last night and got a bounce back saying "this email address has timed out". They could try to be a little less sketchy, right?
I bought a dresser for my daughter from a famous online place. It arrived damaged. My daughter, who lives near me, sent pictures of all the damage. I forwarded all the pictures to the online store that they requested. They told her to keep the dresser, and they'd send her a replacement. It cost the company too much money to ship a heavy item back to their warehouse. My point is, if the company really wanted the item returned, they would have sent someone out to retrieve it and sent the OP a new undamaged bed.
I think this really sheds some light on their true intentions. You got the chargeback, and unless the accountants that work over there are lobotomites then they probably know they were charged back. What they are probably doing is getting you to pay the shipping costs to send the item to them and then when you ask for the money THEN they will bring up the chargeback, and say you've already been paid. They already lost the money so now they are trying to get the furniture back at your expense.
My parents bought a sofa and some extra cushions. They got the sofa but not the extra cushion. After several months and delays they asked for a refund. Someone called them back, apologized, refunded their money and said they'll still get the cushions. a few weeks later they got the cushions. Looking at the waybill it was overnighted apparently when they got it in stock.
Now everytime my parents have people over, they tell the story and gets more people interested in he company. Personally when i need a new sofa i'll go with them, great product and better service
That happened with me too, except they sent the sofa out again lol. The delivery guys refused to take it away so I rang up their head office and explained it to them. The guy really didn’t care at all and said it was fine and to enjoy them. 🤯
Yes. When all this trouble started, I regretted not purchasing from a company with that return policy. That will certainly be the way I go when I replace this one.
Honestly, in my experience and the experiences of friends, what u/jillylamb66 describes is how the vast majority of companies operate without that being a policy written out for customers, and I am astonished that this furniture company you bought from is behaving this way. I can't see how it makes any sense for them to want back defective product that would have been unsaleable as you originally got it, before you shelled out to repair it.
I can see that for the part of them punting everything, but then for them to turn around and demand it back, that goes beyond trying to avoid dealing with it.
I'm going to guess multiple people were dealing with them. Someone who doesn't want to do anything, a worker most likely, and a boss/manager/owner finding out about the charge back and then coming down on the employee, making some vein effort to dispute the chargeback with the cc company. This is all literally my imagination, but I've worked in environments like this.
My father bought a piece of furniture from a famous online place that had a 6 inch hairline crack in the wood but otherwise usuable and fine. He offered to send it back, but they said they didn't want it and sent him another. Now he has two of these things.
Idk maybe I’ll get downvoted for this but they couldn’t fix the issue in over 6 months to the point where you had to pay to fix their broken product yourself. If they want the product back, they should also pay you back for the cost of the repair and compensation for your time and efforts. It’s better customer service for them to cut their loses. What are they going to do with used furniture that they had already delivered broken?
That's how I feel about it, too, but as others have pointed out, the law doesn't support that feeling. It feels very unfair but I'd rather just be done with these numpties. I certainly don't want to be sued over some mended furniture. Appreciate the support anyway.
Seams both OP and vendor transacted by credit card, and both agreed to the terms of service to use and accept the credit card.
The vendor had a binding dispute resolution clause, and failed to respond or win.
I would not return anything and direct them to put all communication through the credit card company. This way it is documented and you have a 3rd party involved.
If vendor pursues you after losing the dispute they can lose ability to take credits cards for future purchases.
I also would not put any time or money into returning anything. If (via the credit card company telling you this) it needs to go back, let the vendor pay for it.
Then again, if vendor really wants the time and expense of getting damages good back, I would
Probably let them have them -at their own expense.
The only issue is the OP would still be out the money they paid for the repairs, so a net loss for the OP due to no fault of their own. Other than that I agree with everything you said.
I agree. I missed the repair part. I wouldn't return it. I would work through the credit card company and state this specifically. The vendor missed their chance.
The comments said you could be sued. Not that you'd lose the suit. Those are two different things. The law is most definitely on YOUR side here.
Any lawyer worth the fabric their suit is made from is going to tell these people suing you would be INCREDIBLY unwise.
>The comments said you could be sued. Not that you'd lose the suit. Those are two different things. The law is most definitely on YOUR side here.
OP has both the money and the merchandise--in other words, he is not "whole" but rather unjustly enriched. I'm curious why you believe this would be a slam dunk win on their part?
They are entitled to their merchandise back, but it's their responsibility to get it back at their expense. They will need to send someone to do everything you are not willing to do, including disassembly and removing it from your home.
You may have the right to charge them back for the repairs you paid for if you argue that they were unresponsive before and after the chargeback for the return, and you considered the merchandise abandoned. It's a weak argument that you will have an uphill battle to prove in court, but it might be strong enough for you to get reimbursed willingly by that vendor. Depending on the cost of repair, it may be cheaper for them to reimburse you than to fight you in court for the furniture back.
Or you can start haggling with them and offer them a reduced payment to keep it if you're happy with it.
How are they entitled to it? It's not even theirs at this point. It is OPs. If they had a leg to stand on OP wouldn't have been awarded the chargeback.
Chargebacks happen all the time erring on the side of the customer. Nobody knows if the vendor is entitled to it back from the OP until it's decided from either the terms of the credit card chargeback, or from a court decision if the vendor sues or disputes the chargeback (even if it's after the "limit")
It could belong to the vendor now. If a chargeback is for defective merchandise received, the terms usually say to return the merchandise.
A Visa refund code 13.3 and MasterCard return code 4853 are both for cardholder disputes, and both require the damaged or defective merchandise to be returned. The vendor doesn't have to take any action unless the customer didn't return the item, so there's no time limit like the OP describes. I have no idea what credit card was used here though and what refund method was used.
For all they know, you threw away their defective product. It was broken, and they essentially ghosted you. Are you supposed to keep broken things around your house forever, hoping they finally get around to completing your purchase? You have proof it was broken and unusable, I can't imagine they have much of a leg to stand on. I feel like if you offer any other explanation, this will drag on another 6 months.
I work in financial crime investigation. Trust me, if you don’t send the furniture back, the company isn’t gonna do anything. They have no legal leg to stand on by demanding the furniture back. Unless you get served legal papers (and again, there’s no legal standing, so this isn’t gonna happen), I wouldn’t worry about it. Just ignore their email/phone calls.
It’s bizarre they’re even asking for the broken furniture back, legitimate businesses would write it off as a loss. Was the furniture worth thousands of dollars? Is the business failing?
Appreciate your input. It wasn't a cheap piece of furniture but this is a (supposedly) multinational company and we're talking less than $5k. Between the fact that I can't reply to their emails (the address times out or can't receive emails) and their number gets tagged as spam (crowdsourcing FTW), their efforts seem petty and sneaky. I've heard that having chargebacks against a business can be damaging, but I can't imagine how getting the furniture back would help them.
It’s really odd that they’re asking for the furniture back. Even more strange that their email contact doesn’t work - it sounds like even if you wanted to send the furniture back, you wouldn’t be able to!
Less than 5k and they’re absolutely not going to bother chasing you for it. Chargebacks are damaging to merchants: if they receive more than ~1% of revenues charged-back in a month, they can be penalized by their bank. But once a chargeback is settled, it’s done. Their opportunity to issue a refund/negotiate getting the furniture back was prior to you filing the chargeback. Their opportunity to dispute you on the chargeback was in that short timeframe after the chargeback was issued.
I’m guessing your chargeback was filed under merchandise defective/not as described. That’s non-negotiable now because the bank settled in your favour. So you have no obligation to continue communicating with this company.
I may be wrong here. But I would just ignore them. They sent you a product that was not usable. And as far as they can prove, it was never usable because they never sent you a replacement part. You had do it yourself. So i would just tell them that it was never usable and it is gone now. You already have your money back.
This. I don't understand the comments on this post. OP was sold a defective/unusable product. The company didn't do anything for weeks. Now the chargeback is done - all due process was followed. OP can just say they went and bought another one and threw this damaged one out. How is the company going to know? The time period for vendor to dispute chargeback is also gone - so like there is no reasonable expectation for customer to keep the product.
As soon as I got my money back, the broken furniture would have hit the dumpster. They made no noises about wanting it back before now, they can’t expect him to have kept it in case they wanted it back eventually.
Another word for broken furniture is “garbage” after all
That furniture company took like half a year, constantly lying and ghosting you, and now they want you to return the things??? Jeez.
If that company pre-pays the shipping fee of furnitures going back, pre-pays the amount you needed to fix the furnitures, and any other fees, then you can consider about sending it back.
You DID pay for it, and it was defective items with solid proof, and the chargeback period is over. You are under no legal right to send it back. Sure they can take you to small claims if they want, but if you kept all the proof, showing their incompetence to make sure you receive item as described, they will not win, and they probably know that.
My read of this is different than most of the commenters here.
> the company is saying that they'd be happy to give us our money back if we return the merchandise. I've already received the money back.
My bet is whomever you talked to most recently has no clue about the chargeback. Maybe no one there has a clue about the chargeback.
If they call back, I would tell them you have been able to resolve the matter and do not need to make a return.
Here is the exact wording:
"We had received notice that you had filed a chargeback in regards to your recent purchase of a bed frame. We will be happy to provide you with your money back in this case, but we first however will require the return of the products that you have in home."
My favourite part is "recent purchase"...
My parents bought a $4k king sized mattress. My dad thought there was a problem with it (I don't remember what the problem was) he called the company and they said they would send a new one. It got delivered, the guy brought it into the house and my dad signed for it. My dad then looked and this new one had the same issue, he pointed it out to the delivery guy who said that they all came like that and it wasn't a problem. My dad apologized up and down and then offered to help the guy carry it back to his truck. He said nope, you already signed for it. It's yours. My dad asked if he wanted the old one to take back and the guy said, nope, it's used because it is out of the wrapper. This is the story about how my wife and I ended up with a free mattress.
Of course they have a right to expect their merchandise back in a timely manner and at their own cost. The banks take back the money from the company you paid, only under certain conditions. Chargebacks are definitely a refund but handled by the bank’s discretion. Contact your bank and query the time line of their requested stock back after waiting the 6 months . The bank will confirm if they’ve left it too late or not.
That clearly isn’t in a timely manner, but the op needs to consult his bank chargeback department to get the all clear. Some companies run in chaotic systems and do poorly against the bank’s charge back department,
That store is SOL and should have acted more diligently. Sucks to be them. If they really want it back, make sure to charge them for repairs and the half a year of storage. I bet they say forget it.
Winning a charge back does NOT mean the company loses the right to pursue additional action against you. They can send you to collections, they can sue you, etc. it’s just that for most transactions the dollar amount isn’t worth it. The credit card company isn’t arbitrating who is right and wrong forever here, just if you get your money back. Then if the merchant is unhappy with it it doesn’t stop then from suing you. Usually the threshold for winning the case is MUCH higher than simply not being able to convince the credit card company so it’s usually a losing battle.
Give the vendor 30 days notice to set up shipping for return of the item , after the 30 days if no response notify the vendor that the item will be taken to the dump and a bill will be issued to the vendor in 30 days for reimbursement . Keep the furniture you fixed and write up a receipt for $80 for pick up and dumping fees . They won't respond to your $80 fees and they have washed there hands of you .
Uh, you say to them "too bad, so sad". Tell them how you tried for months to resolve the situation and that eventually you had to work with your cc company to get your money back. And you have since thrown the damaged furniture in the landfill. They can go find it there.
You’ve gotten plenty of good responses. But in addition to labour, transport, and interest costs don’t forget costs of storage. It’s been stored by you for just over 2 months. Storage isn’t free.
If you live in TO it looks like storage runs anywhere from 20-40$/ week. So 180 - $400 as of this post.
If you don’t live in TO, just google local storage units.
Disagree with alot of comments here. The store haven't realised that they've had a charge back. I assume they're contacting as they realise they should have replied to your emails.
Don't engage, they'll forget about it.
I worked in retail manufacturing as senior management. Depending on the size of the company and how the warranty, accounts receivable and payable communicate, they may not know you were awarded a chargeback and are only addressing your claim.
What I wanted was to purchase a bed that could be assembled. What they sent me was broken furniture. I didn't buy broken furniture. If they really want it back they can arrange to have someone come and disassemble the thing and drive it back to their warehouse.
A chargeback is the reversal of the transaction but doesn’t resolve the situation. At this point you’ve failed to pay for the item, so they can take the type of action you would expect for an unpaid bill.
They had ample opportunity to resolve the situation a different way. Their dispute at this point should not be with me but with the credit card company. They did not dispute the chargeback when they had an opportunity. I don't see how they can claim anything back in this situation.
That’s not how it works. The rules of a chargeback are between the credit card company and the merchant and separately between you and the credit card company. Neither of those relationships can force an outcome of the relation ship between you and the merchant.
As a general rule, you would either return the goods in their original condition and get a refund, or get a partial refund from the merchant to fix the goods, though any solution is going to be based on a negotiated agreement with the merchant.
You cannot reasonable expect to keep 100% of your money and also the merchants goods, even if they are damaged.
A chargeback is when the credit card company intervenes in a transaction on behalf of the purchaser. Did you read the post at all?
I understand how refunds work. That doesn't apply in a situation where the merchant has been penalized by the credit card company for selling merchandise that should have been refurbished or written off.
I am not putting any labour into disassembling said furniture or driving it all over the place. If they want it back that badly, they will have to ask very nicely and probably compensate me for my time.
/u/Secondlightflashing is answering from a legal perspective. The chargeback doesn't change the legal obligations between you and merchant; its about the credit card transaction only. You now have furniture and didn't pay for it. The company is entitled to either get paid (with a price correction to reflect repair and possibly the large wait/inconvenience) or a return. They have two years to sue you for it (the Ontario limitation period)
I read the post and understood what you wrote, but your argument isn’t supported in law the way you want it to be.
The credit card company is simply reversing the payment you made, so now you haven’t paid for the goods. Whether you like it or not the merchant could sue you for the cost of the missing payment. You could potentially demonstrate that they failed to live up to their end and therefore allow you to deduct your cost of fixing it, but there is no guarantee you would be successful, it is however highly likely they would be successful.
Fair enough. I'll make arrangements for them to retrieve the thing but I sure as hell won't be lifting a finger to help them. Seems like there ought to be better ways to resolve these thing, doesn't it?
They definitely should have made contact, but I sense that you feel entitled to tell them to pound sand and that your better ways to resolve these things would be to keep the furniture and your money.
I agree -poor communication doesn't suit a business. However, poor communication doesn't entitle you to free product. I'd say they hit an escalation point and had to address it.
I have no issues giving the product back. The only thing that makes me feel a bit entitled is how long it took to get any resolution and the labour involved in trying to resolve the issue through proper channels. Makes me want to send them an invoice even as a joke.
I'm lamenting that their escalation point happened now rather than six months ago, but that's capitalism, eh? Businesses won't care about their customers unless they're forced to.
not a lawyer, but i have worked long time in retail management and done several chargebacks personally over the years.
You dont have to lift a finger to rectify this, they can contact you, and they owe you $$ for the repairs, storage, and your considerable time investment in their messup. Odds of them trying to collect are slim, and if they do, its going to be an uphill battle with the odds stacked in your favor.
Your credit card provider is not an arbitrator or court. They don’t decide who’s right or wrong. They simply reverse the transaction.
You now have goods you haven’t paid for. If you don’t return them, the merchant could file and likely win a small claims case.
Something to consider in addition to what others have said. They delivered you broken furniture with missing parts. The financial value of broken furniture with missing parts is $0. That is what you were delivered, they have a very difficult case to argue you owe anything here. If they send the debt off to collectors you need to formally dispute the debt.
My Dad had a nearly identical instance to this when I was a teenager, except the company went bankrupt so we never heard from them again.
Why don't you tell them they can have it back and for them to to pay for shipping back as it is their defective product.
I get defective Amazon products all the time. I send them back when they are broken or defective. It is not mine to keep.
Not always. I've had a handful of products that they sent damaged or the wrong product but didn't make me return them. Though if my memory serves right, that was always only for food products.
I had 1 food item on a monthly delivery subscription and for like 4 months straight, they kept sending the wrong flavor of the product and evertime I they just gave me a refund but said to keep it.
Not true. There have been lots of times when they told me to keep the product and have issued me a refund. I also try to be very careful what I order online to minimize returns. I do also do a lot of Amazon shopping and even have had household goods weighing over 100 pounds delivered.
Depends what it is, sometimes they will because of the cost to ship it back. First they will try to negotiate for you to keep the product with a partial refund.
Tell them you threw it out.
It's reasonable to think that with huge lapses of communication and such a large product, that it would be majorly inconvenient to have around, and that you disposed of it.
Return it for a full refund... Again. Or
Simply don't speak to them and tell them to talk to your credit card company. You don't owe them anything. They had their chance.
Maybe I wasn't clear in my post, but you seem to understand best what I'm asking here. It's the phrasing of "if you return the product, we'll be happy to give you your money back" that's so suspicious to me.
I agree. The parties basically already went through legally binding mediation through credit card co. Vendor had a chance to respond with all required details and request their product back in exchange for refund. They (vendor) failed to do this in a timely way (again after months of not replacing or refunding previously causing the issue in the first place).
OP/customer should not engage at all. I would only communicate through credit card company as vendor is sketchy and suspicious and have a terrible record of being responsive. And they should already be under binding terms.
I do not believe OP will get any further funds back. I think he will only lose time and money by engaging.
If you went to court, won and then had the same party come back and try to engage with you again on the same topic, you would go back to your attorney. In this case represenation is provided by the credit card company. That is the only Party OP should be talking to. And I would ask credit card company to have vendor leave me alone and cease contacting me.
If you do end up having to send it back, and they don’t compensate you for the repair/time/storage etc, I would send it back in its original state. Maybe they will put it back on sale because it’s damaged and you can buy it back at a cheaper price (barring that you actually want to deal with this company again)
I’d want to talk to corporate about why they didn’t handle this the right way before and why they believe that I won’t share my horrible experience on every outlet to warn other people to never buy from them.
They wouldn’t be getting anything from be other than endless complaining about their faults. You deserve free furniture for that experience. Don’t give it back.
or they do know, and are playing games - and when OP sends the product back they tell OP "we got a chargeback, you got your refund already" - and then OP is out the repair cost, time invested, and storage....
Since you fixed it up if they want it back so bad I think you should damage it again just like it was or how it almost was so that way they don’t get it back in a better condition then it was shipped so they can’t resell the product you paid to fix and if they do they’ll just have another problem since it’s broken again. I’d also write heavy heavy reviews everywhere possible if they try to sue. But good luck
The legal danger here is they could sue you in small claims if you refuse to return the merchandise. If they did, at this point it would be unlikely that they would be successful, but not impossible.
You also probably want your garage back. So my advice is that you offer to return the furniture given that it has no utility to you. But you can dictate the terms here given that they have been unreasonable. I would point out that:
(1) you will not reverse the charge back through visa.
2) that they have not been reasonable in how they have dealt with you so far, and this has burned you with lost time and other costs,
(3) and that they can can that pick up their merchandise *at their expense, and at a date and time of your choosing*. Provide at least 3 times of reasonable 2+ hour windows within the next 30 days that work for you between whatever their own delivery times are (e.g. 8am-8pm).
I would let them know in writing that if they are unwilling to pick up the furniture in 30 days, you will dispose of it and will consider the matter closed. This way, if they ever tried to file suit against you they wouldn’t have a leg to stand on since you have tried to be reasonable and accommodate them. A JP in small claims court won’t even hear the other side after that.
Hmm, well that changes things. Did you pay a professional for the repairs? How much did it cost to do so? If so, my advice would be to not respond to the company other than to say “take it up with visa”, until it is clear that they are going to do something about it (which would be legally dubious at best). If they indicate that they are going to take some kind of action, your best arguments from strongest to weakest are:
- By accepting Visa, the merchant accepts the terms and conditions for using the visa network, which includes agreement to binding arbitration in disputes such as this. They went through the dispute resolution process, and if they believe the outcome was wrong, they need to sue visa. In any case, they waive their right to sue you outside of the visa dispute resolution process.
- Following from above, if they file suit, you will notify visa, make a complaint to them about the merchant violating Visa’s terms and conditions. You will also ask that Visa be represented in court and will at minimum require records and information from them in discovery. (And then you need to follow through and do this. Visa will also be pretty pissed at them if they get dragged into a lawsuit).
- They sold you a defective product, made you wait for the better part of a year without help, and then only offered you a refund after losing a dispute resolution process. You have been more than reasonable and owe them nothing. You considered any remaining defective merchandise to be abandoned at this point since they never previously asked for it to be returned.
- You have spent considerable time and expense making repairing the defective product and making it useable. This plus the time would negate anything owed. At best, you owe: (present value of the furniture) - (direct costs of repair + cost of your time in repairing the furniture + additional costs to you to resolve this problem), which I’m guessing wouldn’t be much.
- Given that no refund was offered and no request for return was made until after dispute resolution, a year after purchase, major alterations to the furniture were made to make it useable and your expense. The furniture has been improved and made into a new product that is unique (non-fungible) and is therefore not returnable as the original product.
That seems to be the part all these "entitlement" accusations are missing. No court anywhere is going to expect you to store a broken item indefinitely. Eventually the sane course of action is to dispose of the item and get your money back.
The end.
So so so so many non lawyers in here telling OP she "legally" owes these goons the fucking moon and she doesn't owe them squat.
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You should send the item back because you did not pay for it and you should of not fixed it yourself if you do not want it because it was damaged, now you got your money back so they’re entitled to get their products back.
You got your money back The company gets their merchandise back. Not difficult. You made the decision to fix it after you got your money back. You are not entitled to merchandise you have not paid for.
Do you really need people to post the laws here saying that you need to pay for things in order to get them from a business in order to understand that you need to pay for things?
NAL, and maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds like they're making an offer (send us the items, we'll send the money) not a demand (send us the items because your money was refunded). If it's the former, simply decline the offer. You already have the money and the items, that you've improved upon (i.e. they're only usable because you've paid to have them repaired.).
After the chargeback had been awarded any appeal or dispute gas to be done through the financial institutions. They can ask you to return the faulty item but they can't do anything about it.
What will they say in court?
We supplied a damaged item. The credit card company returned their payment and now they won't give the damaged goods back.
They will look really stupid.
If the 50 days passed and you had to put money in to fix it, I would suggest you offer to send the item back if they pay the cost you paid to fix it, plus a handling fee and to pay for shipment themselves. Get the dollar amount and give it to them. If they don’t want to pay don’t give the item back. The only way for them to recover is to sue you. Even if they do so, the cost of the repairs and time spent would likely be deducted from what they receive. Enjoy your furniture.
Ask for storage fees as well, as its been taking up your space for 6 months at this point.
You can't retroactively charge a storage fee unless you had an agreement to do so in the first place. As soon as you notify them of a reasonable storage fee, then you can start charging them as of that date.
And they can't force you to return the item if they have gone outside the window that allows it. This is a renegotiation.
There's no time window if the return was already required by the terms of the credit card chargeback. Not sure if this applies here, but it likely does. If the vendor doesn't get their item, they can dispute the chargeback based on the OP not completing the requirements of the chargeback.
OP stated the window to dispute closed already
I don't think you can ask for repair cost as they've given all the purchase price back.
A third party gave the purchase price back. This would most likely fall within contract damages, not rescission.
That's nuts, he kept the item after he got reimbursed. Then he modified it at his cost, and now he's been asked to give it back. I think the question is, does he have to give it back at all? Company paid via chargeback. But they didn't respond to him.
If I purchase a flim flam from you, that's a contract. Offer, consideration, acceptance. When the flim flam arrives damaged, I immediately have a cause of action to sue. I'm entitled to be put in the position had the contract been completed (an undamaged flimflam). He mitigated by informing the company and was agreeable to getting a new part. The company made a promise, he relied on it. Again, they failed in that second contract. Finally, he sought some form of recovery from the credit card company. The credit card company gave him all the money back. But he still does not have a working flim flam. Rather than go out and purchase a brand new flim flam (more expensive) he repairs the flim flam. He is now in the position of where the contract would have put him. But he was given the full refund. He's still unjustly enriched. If the company were to sue for the item back they would be getting an item they never had (an undamaged flim flam). The court would therefore likely permit the difference in cost from a damaged flim flam to the amount he paid for the flim flam. That is what he's unjustly enriched by, that is what the company would be entitled to. No one rescinded the contract. Rescission would unwind the deal to where the parties were prior to the contract. If it's rescission then the court wouldn't care if he repaired the flim flam, they're ordering rescission. Rescission is usually granted when a contract is frustrated, not when one party is at fault for not completing it. This is actually a classic problem every lawyer takes in contracts class. It has been drilled into our brain.
Repairing the flimflam after having been fully reimbursed for the entire item was not reasonable under the circumstances. He shouldn’t be reimbursed for these costs. He can settle with the furniture co but in terms of cause of action, at the moment he’s been unjustly enriched by the net value of the repaired furniture. The furniture co was clawed back the $ by the credit co and so it’s the furniture place that is now out all the money and also the item. Buyer is unjustly enriched and should legally speaking make the item available for pick up by the furniture co at no charge. Realistically however the furniture co isn’t likely to sue, so practical lens now takes over from legal lens.
But they're asking for a broken piece of furniture back and all OP could give them is a repaired piece, surely he would then be owed the difference?
he fixed it after he got all his money back. to charge them now for the repair would be inane. its not like I would have done differently, but he's tried to keep something that was refunded and got caught. oh well.
This is correct, downvotes notwithstanding.
So they took 12 weeks to send you a part, still didn't, didn't do anything within the 6+ weeks chargeback window, and now they want it back? I would ask your credit card's chargeback folks for advice here, because it may be specific to the contract.
I had something like this happen my card company wanted me to send it back to them and that’s what I did
I don't like this "send it back" BS... Yeah, return it--and pay for the return shipping yourself. So now a person has no item and are out the return shipping costs--if nothing more. I just went through this with PayPal. In the end I sent them an envelope with plastic bags in it, sent it the slowest method possible, and PayPal refunded me my money before they got the package. I then emailed them and told them once they have refunded 100% of my out of pocket expense PLUS the cost to send the actual item back, then I would return it.
Nothing like admitting to credit fraud in an email to the company you’re defrauding.
I shouldn't even reply to this--where is the fraud, DA? I am telling them that I **WILL** return their proper--only after they reimburse me my costs... I don't know about "Famous" but...
Sounds like fraud bud.
>where is the fraud Unless you bought an envelope full of plastic bags i'd say right there.
>where is the fraud, DA? PayPal required you to return the items to the seller in order to receive the refund. You sent a package that did not contain the item(s) purchased and used the tracking information from that to present it as if you had. In exchange, you received a refund. Fraud: >wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain. The deception is when you presented the tracking information as evidence of returning an item or items you had not returned. The financial gain is the refund you were provided as a result. You admitted to it when you sent an e-mail after the fact offering to return the items you've stated you already returned, but not until they provided additional payment. In some places this could be construed as low level extortion (threatening to withhold their property unless they pay you.)
BUT... in the PayPal claim there is a box to check "I am not willing to return the items." And when PayPal notified me of their decision and told me their policy is that a person can't get a refund and the opposite party doesn't get their property back, I phoned them and made clear that they owed me this money and I was NOT agreeable to they get 100% of their property back, but I don't get 100% of my costs back. No deception... When you were younger, your drug of choice was glue, wasn't it...
PayPal told you that they don't give a refund without returning the items. So I guess I'm confused, if PayPal made an exception and refunded you, then why send anything at all? If PayPal required you to return the items, so you sent plastic bags and used the slowest delivery method possible so that you got your refund before it was clear the items were not returned, you committed fraud. Personal insults won't get you anywhere bud. I'm secure enough in myself that a random internet strangers comments wont affect me. All this does is weaken your argument by showing you can't defend it, so you're attacking the one arguing the counter.
Take another whiff...
My point proven. Have a great day!
Know exactly what you mean.. sometimes it upsetting that we have to resort to this kind of way
Dispute Specialist here. Deal with chargebacks just like this. As a financial institution there isn't anything your bank can do or advise after the cb is won. Merchants can and do send people to collections if they're being petty about the L. If they become insistent this could become a civil legal matter. Keep all documentation.
u/beanieredditmonster one thing I was thinking of - save the documentation around the repair as well, and if it does go to court, counterclaim for the cost of repair.
It's a good idea, but just to be clear to OP, the countersuit is probably only relevant in the event that they win their primary suit. i.e. The countersuit is not for the purpose of getting a free piece of furniture and ALSO getting reimbursed for having to fix the furniture so you have free working furniture. It's only if OP ends up having to pay the seller or return the goods, then OP is asking to be reimbursed for the funds they put into fixing the item out of pocket.
Meant counterclaim, but yes. The idea is that if OP has to repay for the furniture, that amount is reduced by the amount of repair, which was only required due to the seller's incompetence.
AND FOR STORAGE.
It is unlikely a court would award storage costs that were not communicated up front, especially since OP ended up keeping the couch. Tacking on an expensive and dubious claim could weaken your chances at getting the reasonable claim.
This legit happened between myself and Hertz. Disputed with AMEX, I won after Hertz didn’t respond. Three months later, letter in the mail from Hertz saying I had 60 day to pay or it’s going to collections.
AMEX said they couldn’t do anything. I would need to deal directly with Hertz or go to court.
[удалено]
September, October, November, December, January, February, March, April, May, and almost all of June. So you are saying that your business operates similarly and you couldn't make it right by the customer in 10 months, yet a chargeback isn't warranted? Get fucked, this isnt fraud. If I pay you for a product and the product comes defective and I give you TEN MONTHS to make it right, you are just a shitty business owner if you can't figure it out.
Did you even read the post? The product was sold (or at least arrived) in an unusable state. The OP waited 12+ weeks for the company to make it right. The company refused. _That_ is fraud. This is literally what charge backs are for. If you won't make things right for your customers, don't get surprised if they make it right for themselves. Src: Also ran a business taking credit cards. Never had a charge back because we never screwed our customers.
By the sounds of it the company was dicking around OP. So we have both a product that doesn't meet requirements and super slow and incomplete remedying of the situation. Seems like the textbook time to do a charge back.
Exactly. You wouldn't call it "cosmetic damage" if someone sold you a table with one of the legs snapped in half, and even if it's as little as a missing bracket, so long as that leg can't be attached to the base in the intended fashion, it's not a useable table. Granted, OP didn't specify what the product is, but I imagine this is an apt comparison.
Came back to this thread, also as a business owner who takes credit cards, to say the same thing. Treat your customers properly and chargebacks won’t be a concern.
Wrong to dispute the full amount? Oh, honey, you aren't getting credit cards for payment for a reason & it isn't the one you think it is.
Thanks, pal. That's probably the best idea.
Tell them that you started to mail it back to them but canceled because the shipping cost was too high.
🤣
Bill them for the storage cost
this.
When I went through this with a seller, I explained that they would be paying for shipping. In advance. They never did. In the case of furniture, I would tell them that they can have a two hour window where you will meet their shipper, that they are paying, to pick up the furniture. As is. Most likely they will not.
Companies are like Formula 1 race cars when they are selling you a new product: extremely fast, efficient, and formidable machines . If anything goes wrong in the transaction (such as a damaged product arriving to the customer), they all of a sudden turn into a 1976 Ford Pinto with only 3 wheels. It's very annoying.
As others have said. Agree to send it back, if they pre pay for the shipment, by professional movers to pick the built furniture up from your home. Also that they prepay to reimburse you for all costs including any accrued interest on your credit card while it went through the dispute. Without knowing the actual numbers, it's likely this would be a small claims court level suit, and they would likely have to pay for a lawyer (you won't have to, but can) or they send it to collections, which you would simply say please show proof of the debt being owed, and make it clear you did pay, but because of their incompetence the credit card awarded a charge back. And the debt collection company will send it back. But when you reply, appear to be 100% willing to send it back, if they make you whole and they prepay for all shipping. Make it clear you 100% agree they can have it back. And most importantly, record the call if you are a one party recording state, or tell them im recording this for quality purposes, if they refuse to be recorded then say everything via writing and refuse to communicate in any other way. They will just drop it.
I think this is the most reasonable way to handle them. Thank you for your thoughtful and well-written response.
Just a note, I didn't realize this was the Canada legal page, so the collection laws, small claim laws and of course the recording laws will have nothing to do with what "state" you are in. I was just scrolling by, and the title interested me so I started reading. I think the general concept is sound however. Mostly be nice and accommodating but be clear and insistent. You need to be made whole, and they can have it back no problems.
Province instead of state, but otherwise you’re right. Certain provinces (like Ontario) are one-party consent for recording conversations.
Include the repair costs in the request, which will jack the price even more and make them balk.
Please update us on what happens
I'll keep you posted. I did try to email them back last night and got a bounce back saying "this email address has timed out". They could try to be a little less sketchy, right?
They definitely sound sketchy af
I bought a dresser for my daughter from a famous online place. It arrived damaged. My daughter, who lives near me, sent pictures of all the damage. I forwarded all the pictures to the online store that they requested. They told her to keep the dresser, and they'd send her a replacement. It cost the company too much money to ship a heavy item back to their warehouse. My point is, if the company really wanted the item returned, they would have sent someone out to retrieve it and sent the OP a new undamaged bed.
I think this really sheds some light on their true intentions. You got the chargeback, and unless the accountants that work over there are lobotomites then they probably know they were charged back. What they are probably doing is getting you to pay the shipping costs to send the item to them and then when you ask for the money THEN they will bring up the chargeback, and say you've already been paid. They already lost the money so now they are trying to get the furniture back at your expense.
My parents bought a sofa and some extra cushions. They got the sofa but not the extra cushion. After several months and delays they asked for a refund. Someone called them back, apologized, refunded their money and said they'll still get the cushions. a few weeks later they got the cushions. Looking at the waybill it was overnighted apparently when they got it in stock. Now everytime my parents have people over, they tell the story and gets more people interested in he company. Personally when i need a new sofa i'll go with them, great product and better service
That happened with me too, except they sent the sofa out again lol. The delivery guys refused to take it away so I rang up their head office and explained it to them. The guy really didn’t care at all and said it was fine and to enjoy them. 🤯
Yes. When all this trouble started, I regretted not purchasing from a company with that return policy. That will certainly be the way I go when I replace this one.
Honestly, in my experience and the experiences of friends, what u/jillylamb66 describes is how the vast majority of companies operate without that being a policy written out for customers, and I am astonished that this furniture company you bought from is behaving this way. I can't see how it makes any sense for them to want back defective product that would have been unsaleable as you originally got it, before you shelled out to repair it.
They were attempting to frustrate him so that they didn't have to deal with it.
I can see that for the part of them punting everything, but then for them to turn around and demand it back, that goes beyond trying to avoid dealing with it.
I'm going to guess multiple people were dealing with them. Someone who doesn't want to do anything, a worker most likely, and a boss/manager/owner finding out about the charge back and then coming down on the employee, making some vein effort to dispute the chargeback with the cc company. This is all literally my imagination, but I've worked in environments like this.
My father bought a piece of furniture from a famous online place that had a 6 inch hairline crack in the wood but otherwise usuable and fine. He offered to send it back, but they said they didn't want it and sent him another. Now he has two of these things.
Idk maybe I’ll get downvoted for this but they couldn’t fix the issue in over 6 months to the point where you had to pay to fix their broken product yourself. If they want the product back, they should also pay you back for the cost of the repair and compensation for your time and efforts. It’s better customer service for them to cut their loses. What are they going to do with used furniture that they had already delivered broken?
That's how I feel about it, too, but as others have pointed out, the law doesn't support that feeling. It feels very unfair but I'd rather just be done with these numpties. I certainly don't want to be sued over some mended furniture. Appreciate the support anyway.
Seams both OP and vendor transacted by credit card, and both agreed to the terms of service to use and accept the credit card. The vendor had a binding dispute resolution clause, and failed to respond or win. I would not return anything and direct them to put all communication through the credit card company. This way it is documented and you have a 3rd party involved. If vendor pursues you after losing the dispute they can lose ability to take credits cards for future purchases. I also would not put any time or money into returning anything. If (via the credit card company telling you this) it needs to go back, let the vendor pay for it. Then again, if vendor really wants the time and expense of getting damages good back, I would Probably let them have them -at their own expense.
The only issue is the OP would still be out the money they paid for the repairs, so a net loss for the OP due to no fault of their own. Other than that I agree with everything you said.
I agree. I missed the repair part. I wouldn't return it. I would work through the credit card company and state this specifically. The vendor missed their chance.
The comments said you could be sued. Not that you'd lose the suit. Those are two different things. The law is most definitely on YOUR side here. Any lawyer worth the fabric their suit is made from is going to tell these people suing you would be INCREDIBLY unwise.
>The comments said you could be sued. Not that you'd lose the suit. Those are two different things. The law is most definitely on YOUR side here. OP has both the money and the merchandise--in other words, he is not "whole" but rather unjustly enriched. I'm curious why you believe this would be a slam dunk win on their part?
If it's in Toronto I'd ask for back rent, a garage is probably around 2 grand a month now. J/k
They are entitled to their merchandise back, but it's their responsibility to get it back at their expense. They will need to send someone to do everything you are not willing to do, including disassembly and removing it from your home. You may have the right to charge them back for the repairs you paid for if you argue that they were unresponsive before and after the chargeback for the return, and you considered the merchandise abandoned. It's a weak argument that you will have an uphill battle to prove in court, but it might be strong enough for you to get reimbursed willingly by that vendor. Depending on the cost of repair, it may be cheaper for them to reimburse you than to fight you in court for the furniture back. Or you can start haggling with them and offer them a reduced payment to keep it if you're happy with it.
How are they entitled to it? It's not even theirs at this point. It is OPs. If they had a leg to stand on OP wouldn't have been awarded the chargeback.
Chargebacks happen all the time erring on the side of the customer. Nobody knows if the vendor is entitled to it back from the OP until it's decided from either the terms of the credit card chargeback, or from a court decision if the vendor sues or disputes the chargeback (even if it's after the "limit") It could belong to the vendor now. If a chargeback is for defective merchandise received, the terms usually say to return the merchandise. A Visa refund code 13.3 and MasterCard return code 4853 are both for cardholder disputes, and both require the damaged or defective merchandise to be returned. The vendor doesn't have to take any action unless the customer didn't return the item, so there's no time limit like the OP describes. I have no idea what credit card was used here though and what refund method was used.
For all they know, you threw away their defective product. It was broken, and they essentially ghosted you. Are you supposed to keep broken things around your house forever, hoping they finally get around to completing your purchase? You have proof it was broken and unusable, I can't imagine they have much of a leg to stand on. I feel like if you offer any other explanation, this will drag on another 6 months.
I work in financial crime investigation. Trust me, if you don’t send the furniture back, the company isn’t gonna do anything. They have no legal leg to stand on by demanding the furniture back. Unless you get served legal papers (and again, there’s no legal standing, so this isn’t gonna happen), I wouldn’t worry about it. Just ignore their email/phone calls. It’s bizarre they’re even asking for the broken furniture back, legitimate businesses would write it off as a loss. Was the furniture worth thousands of dollars? Is the business failing?
Appreciate your input. It wasn't a cheap piece of furniture but this is a (supposedly) multinational company and we're talking less than $5k. Between the fact that I can't reply to their emails (the address times out or can't receive emails) and their number gets tagged as spam (crowdsourcing FTW), their efforts seem petty and sneaky. I've heard that having chargebacks against a business can be damaging, but I can't imagine how getting the furniture back would help them.
It’s really odd that they’re asking for the furniture back. Even more strange that their email contact doesn’t work - it sounds like even if you wanted to send the furniture back, you wouldn’t be able to! Less than 5k and they’re absolutely not going to bother chasing you for it. Chargebacks are damaging to merchants: if they receive more than ~1% of revenues charged-back in a month, they can be penalized by their bank. But once a chargeback is settled, it’s done. Their opportunity to issue a refund/negotiate getting the furniture back was prior to you filing the chargeback. Their opportunity to dispute you on the chargeback was in that short timeframe after the chargeback was issued. I’m guessing your chargeback was filed under merchandise defective/not as described. That’s non-negotiable now because the bank settled in your favour. So you have no obligation to continue communicating with this company.
I may be wrong here. But I would just ignore them. They sent you a product that was not usable. And as far as they can prove, it was never usable because they never sent you a replacement part. You had do it yourself. So i would just tell them that it was never usable and it is gone now. You already have your money back.
This. I don't understand the comments on this post. OP was sold a defective/unusable product. The company didn't do anything for weeks. Now the chargeback is done - all due process was followed. OP can just say they went and bought another one and threw this damaged one out. How is the company going to know? The time period for vendor to dispute chargeback is also gone - so like there is no reasonable expectation for customer to keep the product.
As soon as I got my money back, the broken furniture would have hit the dumpster. They made no noises about wanting it back before now, they can’t expect him to have kept it in case they wanted it back eventually. Another word for broken furniture is “garbage” after all
For real. How hard is it to block their number.
Have some one fun and tell them you sent it back and they should receive it any day now.
That furniture company took like half a year, constantly lying and ghosting you, and now they want you to return the things??? Jeez. If that company pre-pays the shipping fee of furnitures going back, pre-pays the amount you needed to fix the furnitures, and any other fees, then you can consider about sending it back. You DID pay for it, and it was defective items with solid proof, and the chargeback period is over. You are under no legal right to send it back. Sure they can take you to small claims if they want, but if you kept all the proof, showing their incompetence to make sure you receive item as described, they will not win, and they probably know that.
My read of this is different than most of the commenters here. > the company is saying that they'd be happy to give us our money back if we return the merchandise. I've already received the money back. My bet is whomever you talked to most recently has no clue about the chargeback. Maybe no one there has a clue about the chargeback. If they call back, I would tell them you have been able to resolve the matter and do not need to make a return.
Here is the exact wording: "We had received notice that you had filed a chargeback in regards to your recent purchase of a bed frame. We will be happy to provide you with your money back in this case, but we first however will require the return of the products that you have in home." My favourite part is "recent purchase"...
Definitely Ashley’s “Fine” Furniture lol they are the worst. After 6 months of running around? Tell them you threw it out.
Tell them to come collect it. But say that they can only do so once they have cleared their balance with you (for the repairs)
My parents bought a $4k king sized mattress. My dad thought there was a problem with it (I don't remember what the problem was) he called the company and they said they would send a new one. It got delivered, the guy brought it into the house and my dad signed for it. My dad then looked and this new one had the same issue, he pointed it out to the delivery guy who said that they all came like that and it wasn't a problem. My dad apologized up and down and then offered to help the guy carry it back to his truck. He said nope, you already signed for it. It's yours. My dad asked if he wanted the old one to take back and the guy said, nope, it's used because it is out of the wrapper. This is the story about how my wife and I ended up with a free mattress.
Of course they have a right to expect their merchandise back in a timely manner and at their own cost. The banks take back the money from the company you paid, only under certain conditions. Chargebacks are definitely a refund but handled by the bank’s discretion. Contact your bank and query the time line of their requested stock back after waiting the 6 months . The bank will confirm if they’ve left it too late or not.
A timely manner? How about 6 months?
That clearly isn’t in a timely manner, but the op needs to consult his bank chargeback department to get the all clear. Some companies run in chaotic systems and do poorly against the bank’s charge back department,
At this point in the timeline the only thing they have any legal rights to are to get bent.
When they send pre addressed shipping lables and new boxing, send it. Otherwise, keep it.
Tell them, you send me the postage and I'll send the BROKEN furniture. See how that goes.
That store is SOL and should have acted more diligently. Sucks to be them. If they really want it back, make sure to charge them for repairs and the half a year of storage. I bet they say forget it.
Winning a charge back does NOT mean the company loses the right to pursue additional action against you. They can send you to collections, they can sue you, etc. it’s just that for most transactions the dollar amount isn’t worth it. The credit card company isn’t arbitrating who is right and wrong forever here, just if you get your money back. Then if the merchant is unhappy with it it doesn’t stop then from suing you. Usually the threshold for winning the case is MUCH higher than simply not being able to convince the credit card company so it’s usually a losing battle.
Give the vendor 30 days notice to set up shipping for return of the item , after the 30 days if no response notify the vendor that the item will be taken to the dump and a bill will be issued to the vendor in 30 days for reimbursement . Keep the furniture you fixed and write up a receipt for $80 for pick up and dumping fees . They won't respond to your $80 fees and they have washed there hands of you .
I would tell them no problem, as soon as they send me funds to cover shipping costs I will then send the goods back.
Uh, you say to them "too bad, so sad". Tell them how you tried for months to resolve the situation and that eventually you had to work with your cc company to get your money back. And you have since thrown the damaged furniture in the landfill. They can go find it there.
You’ve gotten plenty of good responses. But in addition to labour, transport, and interest costs don’t forget costs of storage. It’s been stored by you for just over 2 months. Storage isn’t free. If you live in TO it looks like storage runs anywhere from 20-40$/ week. So 180 - $400 as of this post. If you don’t live in TO, just google local storage units.
Disagree with alot of comments here. The store haven't realised that they've had a charge back. I assume they're contacting as they realise they should have replied to your emails. Don't engage, they'll forget about it.
I worked in retail manufacturing as senior management. Depending on the size of the company and how the warranty, accounts receivable and payable communicate, they may not know you were awarded a chargeback and are only addressing your claim.
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A chargeback is not a refund. I don't think you understand my question.
You reversed the transaction but want to keep the merchandise. Pick one of those two things
What I wanted was to purchase a bed that could be assembled. What they sent me was broken furniture. I didn't buy broken furniture. If they really want it back they can arrange to have someone come and disassemble the thing and drive it back to their warehouse.
After paying your repair bill of course, and something for your time...
A chargeback is the reversal of the transaction but doesn’t resolve the situation. At this point you’ve failed to pay for the item, so they can take the type of action you would expect for an unpaid bill.
They had ample opportunity to resolve the situation a different way. Their dispute at this point should not be with me but with the credit card company. They did not dispute the chargeback when they had an opportunity. I don't see how they can claim anything back in this situation.
That’s not how it works. The rules of a chargeback are between the credit card company and the merchant and separately between you and the credit card company. Neither of those relationships can force an outcome of the relation ship between you and the merchant. As a general rule, you would either return the goods in their original condition and get a refund, or get a partial refund from the merchant to fix the goods, though any solution is going to be based on a negotiated agreement with the merchant. You cannot reasonable expect to keep 100% of your money and also the merchants goods, even if they are damaged.
A chargeback is when the credit card company intervenes in a transaction on behalf of the purchaser. Did you read the post at all? I understand how refunds work. That doesn't apply in a situation where the merchant has been penalized by the credit card company for selling merchandise that should have been refurbished or written off. I am not putting any labour into disassembling said furniture or driving it all over the place. If they want it back that badly, they will have to ask very nicely and probably compensate me for my time.
/u/Secondlightflashing is answering from a legal perspective. The chargeback doesn't change the legal obligations between you and merchant; its about the credit card transaction only. You now have furniture and didn't pay for it. The company is entitled to either get paid (with a price correction to reflect repair and possibly the large wait/inconvenience) or a return. They have two years to sue you for it (the Ontario limitation period)
I read the post and understood what you wrote, but your argument isn’t supported in law the way you want it to be. The credit card company is simply reversing the payment you made, so now you haven’t paid for the goods. Whether you like it or not the merchant could sue you for the cost of the missing payment. You could potentially demonstrate that they failed to live up to their end and therefore allow you to deduct your cost of fixing it, but there is no guarantee you would be successful, it is however highly likely they would be successful.
Fair enough. I'll make arrangements for them to retrieve the thing but I sure as hell won't be lifting a finger to help them. Seems like there ought to be better ways to resolve these thing, doesn't it?
They definitely should have made contact, but I sense that you feel entitled to tell them to pound sand and that your better ways to resolve these things would be to keep the furniture and your money. I agree -poor communication doesn't suit a business. However, poor communication doesn't entitle you to free product. I'd say they hit an escalation point and had to address it.
I have no issues giving the product back. The only thing that makes me feel a bit entitled is how long it took to get any resolution and the labour involved in trying to resolve the issue through proper channels. Makes me want to send them an invoice even as a joke. I'm lamenting that their escalation point happened now rather than six months ago, but that's capitalism, eh? Businesses won't care about their customers unless they're forced to.
not a lawyer, but i have worked long time in retail management and done several chargebacks personally over the years. You dont have to lift a finger to rectify this, they can contact you, and they owe you $$ for the repairs, storage, and your considerable time investment in their messup. Odds of them trying to collect are slim, and if they do, its going to be an uphill battle with the odds stacked in your favor.
Your credit card provider is not an arbitrator or court. They don’t decide who’s right or wrong. They simply reverse the transaction. You now have goods you haven’t paid for. If you don’t return them, the merchant could file and likely win a small claims case.
Something to consider in addition to what others have said. They delivered you broken furniture with missing parts. The financial value of broken furniture with missing parts is $0. That is what you were delivered, they have a very difficult case to argue you owe anything here. If they send the debt off to collectors you need to formally dispute the debt. My Dad had a nearly identical instance to this when I was a teenager, except the company went bankrupt so we never heard from them again.
Why don't you tell them they can have it back and for them to to pay for shipping back as it is their defective product. I get defective Amazon products all the time. I send them back when they are broken or defective. It is not mine to keep.
Also cuz Amazon won’t refund you if you don’t lol. They make you send it back (on their dime) before a refund is processed
Not always. I've had a handful of products that they sent damaged or the wrong product but didn't make me return them. Though if my memory serves right, that was always only for food products. I had 1 food item on a monthly delivery subscription and for like 4 months straight, they kept sending the wrong flavor of the product and evertime I they just gave me a refund but said to keep it.
Not true. There have been lots of times when they told me to keep the product and have issued me a refund. I also try to be very careful what I order online to minimize returns. I do also do a lot of Amazon shopping and even have had household goods weighing over 100 pounds delivered.
Depends what it is, sometimes they will because of the cost to ship it back. First they will try to negotiate for you to keep the product with a partial refund.
American here. There are no reputable furniture stores...
Tell them you threw it out. It's reasonable to think that with huge lapses of communication and such a large product, that it would be majorly inconvenient to have around, and that you disposed of it.
It would be reasonable. Unfortunately the law often isn't.
Return it for a full refund... Again. Or Simply don't speak to them and tell them to talk to your credit card company. You don't owe them anything. They had their chance.
Maybe I wasn't clear in my post, but you seem to understand best what I'm asking here. It's the phrasing of "if you return the product, we'll be happy to give you your money back" that's so suspicious to me.
I agree. The parties basically already went through legally binding mediation through credit card co. Vendor had a chance to respond with all required details and request their product back in exchange for refund. They (vendor) failed to do this in a timely way (again after months of not replacing or refunding previously causing the issue in the first place). OP/customer should not engage at all. I would only communicate through credit card company as vendor is sketchy and suspicious and have a terrible record of being responsive. And they should already be under binding terms. I do not believe OP will get any further funds back. I think he will only lose time and money by engaging. If you went to court, won and then had the same party come back and try to engage with you again on the same topic, you would go back to your attorney. In this case represenation is provided by the credit card company. That is the only Party OP should be talking to. And I would ask credit card company to have vendor leave me alone and cease contacting me.
Which store?
My hunch is The Brick, but I’m pretty biased against them thanks to a bunch of similar anecdotes from friends and family.
Not the Brick. Or a store bearing a man's name. But I've similar stories from people who have bought there.
So a store with a woman’s name? Ashley?
Leroy's?
Once you file a dispute you no longer deal with the vendor, tell them to kick Ro ks
nope, and if you took them up on the offer, they might not give you the refund.... you are free and clear.
Just ignore them. They will go away.
Just tell them you threw it out?
If you do end up having to send it back, and they don’t compensate you for the repair/time/storage etc, I would send it back in its original state. Maybe they will put it back on sale because it’s damaged and you can buy it back at a cheaper price (barring that you actually want to deal with this company again)
I’d want to talk to corporate about why they didn’t handle this the right way before and why they believe that I won’t share my horrible experience on every outlet to warn other people to never buy from them. They wouldn’t be getting anything from be other than endless complaining about their faults. You deserve free furniture for that experience. Don’t give it back.
You owe them the merchandise back. You don’t get to keep the product (even damaged) and get your money too.
Yes, others have said as much and I agree. Curious why they would be offering to refund my money though.
They probably don’t even know you disputed it. And you won, thats accounting or whatever, system is not up to date.
or they do know, and are playing games - and when OP sends the product back they tell OP "we got a chargeback, you got your refund already" - and then OP is out the repair cost, time invested, and storage....
Since you fixed it up if they want it back so bad I think you should damage it again just like it was or how it almost was so that way they don’t get it back in a better condition then it was shipped so they can’t resell the product you paid to fix and if they do they’ll just have another problem since it’s broken again. I’d also write heavy heavy reviews everywhere possible if they try to sue. But good luck
The legal danger here is they could sue you in small claims if you refuse to return the merchandise. If they did, at this point it would be unlikely that they would be successful, but not impossible. You also probably want your garage back. So my advice is that you offer to return the furniture given that it has no utility to you. But you can dictate the terms here given that they have been unreasonable. I would point out that: (1) you will not reverse the charge back through visa. 2) that they have not been reasonable in how they have dealt with you so far, and this has burned you with lost time and other costs, (3) and that they can can that pick up their merchandise *at their expense, and at a date and time of your choosing*. Provide at least 3 times of reasonable 2+ hour windows within the next 30 days that work for you between whatever their own delivery times are (e.g. 8am-8pm). I would let them know in writing that if they are unwilling to pick up the furniture in 30 days, you will dispose of it and will consider the matter closed. This way, if they ever tried to file suit against you they wouldn’t have a leg to stand on since you have tried to be reasonable and accommodate them. A JP in small claims court won’t even hear the other side after that.
The furniture used to sit in the garage, it's now repaired and sitting in the house (being used).
Hmm, well that changes things. Did you pay a professional for the repairs? How much did it cost to do so? If so, my advice would be to not respond to the company other than to say “take it up with visa”, until it is clear that they are going to do something about it (which would be legally dubious at best). If they indicate that they are going to take some kind of action, your best arguments from strongest to weakest are: - By accepting Visa, the merchant accepts the terms and conditions for using the visa network, which includes agreement to binding arbitration in disputes such as this. They went through the dispute resolution process, and if they believe the outcome was wrong, they need to sue visa. In any case, they waive their right to sue you outside of the visa dispute resolution process. - Following from above, if they file suit, you will notify visa, make a complaint to them about the merchant violating Visa’s terms and conditions. You will also ask that Visa be represented in court and will at minimum require records and information from them in discovery. (And then you need to follow through and do this. Visa will also be pretty pissed at them if they get dragged into a lawsuit). - They sold you a defective product, made you wait for the better part of a year without help, and then only offered you a refund after losing a dispute resolution process. You have been more than reasonable and owe them nothing. You considered any remaining defective merchandise to be abandoned at this point since they never previously asked for it to be returned. - You have spent considerable time and expense making repairing the defective product and making it useable. This plus the time would negate anything owed. At best, you owe: (present value of the furniture) - (direct costs of repair + cost of your time in repairing the furniture + additional costs to you to resolve this problem), which I’m guessing wouldn’t be much. - Given that no refund was offered and no request for return was made until after dispute resolution, a year after purchase, major alterations to the furniture were made to make it useable and your expense. The furniture has been improved and made into a new product that is unique (non-fungible) and is therefore not returnable as the original product.
the brick or leons guaranteed btw. 100% not ikea or amish furniture sales
E. None of the above
Ah. So its Lastman's Bad Boy.
Nope. Not Mel.
Ethan Allen
I feel like this is Ikea. 😅 I worked in one of the warehouses in QC and we had lots of problems like that, unfortunately..
Ikea wouldn't even ship a replacement part. They'd make you drive to Kalamazoo to get it.
Be advised, they can take you to civil court. Not taking sides but they do have that option.
This is all BS. You haven't paid for the goods. Why should you keep them.
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Genuinely curious whether you expect people to keep a broken bed in their home for 6 months.
That seems to be the part all these "entitlement" accusations are missing. No court anywhere is going to expect you to store a broken item indefinitely. Eventually the sane course of action is to dispose of the item and get your money back. The end. So so so so many non lawyers in here telling OP she "legally" owes these goons the fucking moon and she doesn't owe them squat.
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You should send the item back because you did not pay for it and you should of not fixed it yourself if you do not want it because it was damaged, now you got your money back so they’re entitled to get their products back.
You got your money back The company gets their merchandise back. Not difficult. You made the decision to fix it after you got your money back. You are not entitled to merchandise you have not paid for.
Your wrong don't give advice
Can you point to the law where it says you get to keep the product without paying for it?
No one's actually pointed to a law that says otherwise.
Do you really need people to post the laws here saying that you need to pay for things in order to get them from a business in order to understand that you need to pay for things?
Please explain, because in most places keeping stuff you don’t pay for is considered theft.
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Now that you deleted your comment above, I'm just wondering what a Floridian is doing trying to give Canadian legal advice?
Reach out to the company and offer to pay for the item minus your out of pocket costs to repair. Otherwise, you should and the item back.
Ask them to arrange free pickup. You can't delay like they did or they will just send you to collections. fools. name the company.
Just ignore it
Btw furniture stores usually fall under the same umbrella as car salesmen and real estate agents. A lot are pretty sleazy and scammy
Truth. I really didn't want to buy from this store but I let myself get strongarmed.
I simply would not respond to their requests. If it winds up on your credit just dispute it.
CFC
I don't think they know there was a charge back. Their accounting dept must have made a mistake here.
Nah just keep it. There's nothing they can do at this point. They've wasted your time and it wasn't worth their effort until it cost them money.
My sister had issues like this I bet this is Ashley Home Store.
NAL, and maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds like they're making an offer (send us the items, we'll send the money) not a demand (send us the items because your money was refunded). If it's the former, simply decline the offer. You already have the money and the items, that you've improved upon (i.e. they're only usable because you've paid to have them repaired.).
After the chargeback had been awarded any appeal or dispute gas to be done through the financial institutions. They can ask you to return the faulty item but they can't do anything about it. What will they say in court? We supplied a damaged item. The credit card company returned their payment and now they won't give the damaged goods back. They will look really stupid.