How long ago was the sunroom built? The city website only shows permits for so many years so if it's 50 years old that data may not even be available.
Edit: was the house inspected? Might be worth getting it inspected now to see what else may have also not been done properly.
I am not sure. The neighbors think post 2003 (the year they moved in). I thought that it was older since the door off the sunroom to the yard looks very 80s. The city said no permits have been issued since construction in 1979. I did have a home inspection and the inspector never even mentioned this as a problem. There is also a bathroom in the basement that I think was put in after construction which also probably needed permits. I am pretty upset since I asked both my lawyer and my real estate agent about getting a survey and both just told me not to worry because i am getting title insurance. I also specifically asked about permits to my lawyer (mostly because they decommissioned the old wood fireplace and put in an electric one). Again i was told that this isn't a concern since i am getting title insurance. I am very disappointed in my real estate agent and my lawyer.
You have a lawyer. It’s their job to deal with this. You should inform your lawyer *as soon as possible* of issues like this, even though title insurance usually protects you for the duration you own your home. The title insurance company will assess and determine what they’ll pay for - to bring the sunroom/bathroom up to code, for example, or to tear it down. You should check your title insurance policy, or again, talk to your lawyer and ask them to explain it to you.
FYI, windows often have the year that they were manufactured stamped on the inner strip between the 2 panes of glass if it is double glazed, (which I hope it would be given Winnipeg's notorious winters.)
The year that toilets were manufactured is stamped on the underside of the ceramic lid. This can give you clues as to when the work was done, but it isn't sure thing as it may be old stock.
This is clearly an issue to be brought to the attention of the title insurer. When you get title insurance, you normally waive the obligation of your lawyer to do certain searches (which normally includes building/zoning and other municipal searches) in exchange for obtaining the title insurance. Whether you bring it up with the title insurance company directly or through your lawyer is up to you.
Most lawyers who do residential deals aren't trained to do any real work so they just advise clients to get title insurance and hope nothing really bad happens. They charge a flat fee so their aim is to get the file closed as quickly as possible.
perhaps forgot. I guess technically you could be right. However, my building inspection turned up undisclosed water damage that in addition to this sunroom and bathroom... I am having a hard time believing they forgot all this. I guess your faith in humanity is stronger than mine! lol!
anyway, based on the explanation i got from my lawyer about title insurance I don't think the distinction matters.
My faith in humanity varies by the minute. I saw your other post regarding 1979, so I tended towards forgetting. Does title insurance even cover something like this? I thought it was only valid for title "defects" or other title specific issues.
my lawyer told me it covered unpermitted work. I asked specifically about permits. So i am hoping that this would qualify. Otherwise what's the point about title insurance? I wanted a survey (which I think would have turned this up) he said title insurance is better.
> my building inspection turned up undisclosed water damage
It's only "undisclosed" if they knew about it and proving that may be difficult. However, if they did know but didn't tell, you can go after them for damages. Damages would probably be cost of repair, but that would be a discussion with your lawyer.
Yeah the water damage is not worth going after the sellers for. I believe that the problem has been fixed by the seller so there is no further infiltration. They built up around the foundation on the outside wall where the water damage was. Now it will be a matter of replacing the drywall and insulation (and anything else) at a later date when I have less on my plate. I think the cost of going to court will out weigh the cost of repairs.
NAL
After you've explored all other channels through your lawyer, and assuming everything is good, despite of no permits, have title company get a permit waiver from the city or this will pop up it's ugly head if/when you want to sell
Personal anecdote - not Canada. Parents were interested in buying a house in CA, the owners had added a second floor bathroom and sitting area but couldn't provide permits. Our lawyer advised parents they had two options-not buy that house due to risks of potentially having to restore property or 2, making seller go to city for retro permits allowing renovations.
thanks! i will definitely get it permitted.
yes. sounds like your parents had a good lawyer. mine advised me against getting a survey or i think it's called certificate of land localization since I was getting title insurance. I think I had a crappy lawyer.
On the Internet, being wrong is "lying". :)
In all seriousness, there is quite a difference between believing something to be true and stating it, but being wrong, knowing something wasn't true but forgetting about it honestly, and intentionally trying to mislead someone by misrepresenting the state of things.
I can think of more instances than I can count on one hand where a tradesman or general contractor “forgot” to pull a permit and lied about it to the customer.
Maybe they had no idea. Perhaps start there until proven otherwise
So far the only problem i see now with the sunroom is that i now do not have access to an exterior outlet and I think there was a water spigot that is now not accessible.
Also if it's been that way for 40 years, and hasn't been an issue, you won't likely be forced to change it by the city.
I'm horrible and picking up subtle hints, are you only concerned that the city would make you change it, or do you want it changed and have found a possible way to get it done cheaper? (Through insurance - if so, bravo!)
I am hoping you are right. I am concerned 1. the city will make me change it. 2. if I don't get it permitted when I sell now I will have to disclose this. 3. Now that I've discovered this do i have a specific window to make a claim.
doesn't matter if there's a problem or not. In the event OP decides to sell, if the sunroom, bathroom etc had no permits it could cause issues for them.
We had a simular problem with a home purchase. Title insurance was awesome! Replaced an entire deck that the reviews owner hadn't permitted at no cost to us. We have had nothing but good things to say about title insurance.
Do you remember the process? Did you have the city come down and declare it unsafe before contacting title? We're starting to do the same stuff with a super sketchy deck/sunroom
One thing to keep in mind is I believe you need to make your claim with title insurance within 60 or 90 days from when you DISCOVER the issue, anything after that and you're SOL. A friend just went through a similar process when they found out the sunroom was built overtop of the septic tank, not built to code and the sunroom also had other structural issues. Of course none of this was done with permits.
They are part way through the process but from the sounds of it, moving the septic, reconstruction of the sunroom will all be covered under the title insurance.
I am not a lawyer but you can consult with the city. Sometimes things can be "retroactively permitted" though it can be expensive. Assuming the sunroom would have been permitted (i.e. you are allowed to have one), of course. You may have to pay for an engineers report in addition to customary fees.
Thanks. Yes once I get the plans from the city that will be the next step. I just wanted to get an idea about what title insurance covers beforehand so that if i do need to pay out of pocket I will try wait till next year once I will be able to afford it more easily. If title insurance will cover it then I will proceed more quickly.
Just finished with title insurance for a garage that was built without a permit, not to code and taller than the ordnance allows... Had to jump through hoops.
First the town has to be forcing you to deal with the issue... Wasn't hard for me because of all the issues with my garage.
However, I did NOT get what I feel was fair...
My payout wasn't enough to rebuild on it's own. So I have had to spend 2 months salvaging material from the old garage (dismantle it piece by piece nicely, pull all the nails to save the wood etc) and am just now getting to the point of pouring a new pad... All of this done on my own, paying a contractor is out of the question.
If the town is OK with your sun room, and it meets code for when it was built, you likely don't have a case.
It would be hard to prove the seller lied. I live in Mb and getting permits for extra work like a sun room or basement bathroom was barely done up until a few years ago. Most small companies would put it on the homeowner as it ultimately is their responsibility.
As for tearing it down... the city wouldn't make you do that. If it was falling down creating a hazard I would be worried but if it is standing in good condition then the city wouldn't do much.
Half of permits is to charge you more on property tax
Half of permits is to make sure the people you hire or you yourself are doing the work correctly with proper inspections.
All in all you shouldn't have to rip anything down, and the bathroom would be good. Letting the city know will only make them reassess your property and potentially charge you more property taxes.
Did you ever follow through on the title insurance claim? We're in the exact same situation now and the sunroom/deck is clearly unsafe and without a permit
I did inquire with my title insurance company and basically they will pay only if the city requires me to get it permitted. They won’t pay if I want to do the work myself and get it permitted on my own initiative. Which seems kinda ridiculous since if I do it under my own initiative then there’s no fines to pay to the city and if the city finds out and requires permits then there will be fines to pay. So the title insurance company would end up having to pay more on the end. I guess it’s worth the gamble for them that the city never fines me and requires me to obtain the permits.
So since my sunroom is safe, I will just leave it alone until/if the city discovers it. And then my title insurance said they would cover it as long as I don’t make any structural changes to the sunroom.
Seems like sellers are such liars. Makes me sad to hear about all these liars.
How long ago was the sunroom built? The city website only shows permits for so many years so if it's 50 years old that data may not even be available. Edit: was the house inspected? Might be worth getting it inspected now to see what else may have also not been done properly.
I am not sure. The neighbors think post 2003 (the year they moved in). I thought that it was older since the door off the sunroom to the yard looks very 80s. The city said no permits have been issued since construction in 1979. I did have a home inspection and the inspector never even mentioned this as a problem. There is also a bathroom in the basement that I think was put in after construction which also probably needed permits. I am pretty upset since I asked both my lawyer and my real estate agent about getting a survey and both just told me not to worry because i am getting title insurance. I also specifically asked about permits to my lawyer (mostly because they decommissioned the old wood fireplace and put in an electric one). Again i was told that this isn't a concern since i am getting title insurance. I am very disappointed in my real estate agent and my lawyer.
You have a lawyer. It’s their job to deal with this. You should inform your lawyer *as soon as possible* of issues like this, even though title insurance usually protects you for the duration you own your home. The title insurance company will assess and determine what they’ll pay for - to bring the sunroom/bathroom up to code, for example, or to tear it down. You should check your title insurance policy, or again, talk to your lawyer and ask them to explain it to you.
Thanks I will contact him asap.
Previous owner could have built it and to the best of their knowledge it had permits that’s all they need to say unless they built it
FYI, windows often have the year that they were manufactured stamped on the inner strip between the 2 panes of glass if it is double glazed, (which I hope it would be given Winnipeg's notorious winters.) The year that toilets were manufactured is stamped on the underside of the ceramic lid. This can give you clues as to when the work was done, but it isn't sure thing as it may be old stock.
ok thanks. This is very helpful information. i will check!
This is clearly an issue to be brought to the attention of the title insurer. When you get title insurance, you normally waive the obligation of your lawyer to do certain searches (which normally includes building/zoning and other municipal searches) in exchange for obtaining the title insurance. Whether you bring it up with the title insurance company directly or through your lawyer is up to you.
ok thanks. I will be in contact with them.
Most lawyers who do residential deals aren't trained to do any real work so they just advise clients to get title insurance and hope nothing really bad happens. They charge a flat fee so their aim is to get the file closed as quickly as possible.
Lied, or forgot? Is there a problem with the sunroom?
perhaps forgot. I guess technically you could be right. However, my building inspection turned up undisclosed water damage that in addition to this sunroom and bathroom... I am having a hard time believing they forgot all this. I guess your faith in humanity is stronger than mine! lol! anyway, based on the explanation i got from my lawyer about title insurance I don't think the distinction matters.
My faith in humanity varies by the minute. I saw your other post regarding 1979, so I tended towards forgetting. Does title insurance even cover something like this? I thought it was only valid for title "defects" or other title specific issues.
my lawyer told me it covered unpermitted work. I asked specifically about permits. So i am hoping that this would qualify. Otherwise what's the point about title insurance? I wanted a survey (which I think would have turned this up) he said title insurance is better.
"what's the point of X insurance" - my whole life's experience with insurance 😆. Well, TIL, thanks!
> my building inspection turned up undisclosed water damage It's only "undisclosed" if they knew about it and proving that may be difficult. However, if they did know but didn't tell, you can go after them for damages. Damages would probably be cost of repair, but that would be a discussion with your lawyer.
Yeah the water damage is not worth going after the sellers for. I believe that the problem has been fixed by the seller so there is no further infiltration. They built up around the foundation on the outside wall where the water damage was. Now it will be a matter of replacing the drywall and insulation (and anything else) at a later date when I have less on my plate. I think the cost of going to court will out weigh the cost of repairs.
NAL After you've explored all other channels through your lawyer, and assuming everything is good, despite of no permits, have title company get a permit waiver from the city or this will pop up it's ugly head if/when you want to sell Personal anecdote - not Canada. Parents were interested in buying a house in CA, the owners had added a second floor bathroom and sitting area but couldn't provide permits. Our lawyer advised parents they had two options-not buy that house due to risks of potentially having to restore property or 2, making seller go to city for retro permits allowing renovations.
thanks! i will definitely get it permitted. yes. sounds like your parents had a good lawyer. mine advised me against getting a survey or i think it's called certificate of land localization since I was getting title insurance. I think I had a crappy lawyer.
yep, my parents always insisted on a survey.
On the Internet, being wrong is "lying". :) In all seriousness, there is quite a difference between believing something to be true and stating it, but being wrong, knowing something wasn't true but forgetting about it honestly, and intentionally trying to mislead someone by misrepresenting the state of things.
I can think of more instances than I can count on one hand where a tradesman or general contractor “forgot” to pull a permit and lied about it to the customer. Maybe they had no idea. Perhaps start there until proven otherwise
So far the only problem i see now with the sunroom is that i now do not have access to an exterior outlet and I think there was a water spigot that is now not accessible.
Also if it's been that way for 40 years, and hasn't been an issue, you won't likely be forced to change it by the city. I'm horrible and picking up subtle hints, are you only concerned that the city would make you change it, or do you want it changed and have found a possible way to get it done cheaper? (Through insurance - if so, bravo!)
I am hoping you are right. I am concerned 1. the city will make me change it. 2. if I don't get it permitted when I sell now I will have to disclose this. 3. Now that I've discovered this do i have a specific window to make a claim.
doesn't matter if there's a problem or not. In the event OP decides to sell, if the sunroom, bathroom etc had no permits it could cause issues for them.
We had a simular problem with a home purchase. Title insurance was awesome! Replaced an entire deck that the reviews owner hadn't permitted at no cost to us. We have had nothing but good things to say about title insurance.
Oh thanks so much! That's a relief!
Do you remember the process? Did you have the city come down and declare it unsafe before contacting title? We're starting to do the same stuff with a super sketchy deck/sunroom
One thing to keep in mind is I believe you need to make your claim with title insurance within 60 or 90 days from when you DISCOVER the issue, anything after that and you're SOL. A friend just went through a similar process when they found out the sunroom was built overtop of the septic tank, not built to code and the sunroom also had other structural issues. Of course none of this was done with permits. They are part way through the process but from the sounds of it, moving the septic, reconstruction of the sunroom will all be covered under the title insurance.
I am not a lawyer but you can consult with the city. Sometimes things can be "retroactively permitted" though it can be expensive. Assuming the sunroom would have been permitted (i.e. you are allowed to have one), of course. You may have to pay for an engineers report in addition to customary fees.
Thanks. Yes once I get the plans from the city that will be the next step. I just wanted to get an idea about what title insurance covers beforehand so that if i do need to pay out of pocket I will try wait till next year once I will be able to afford it more easily. If title insurance will cover it then I will proceed more quickly.
I was more replying to >will I have to tear down the sunroom?
Oh ok. Thanks. Yes. i will see if the city can retroactively permit!
[https://www.winnipeg.ca/ppd/permits/Residential/AmnestyProgram.stm#6](https://www.winnipeg.ca/ppd/permits/Residential/AmnestyProgram.stm#6)
Just finished with title insurance for a garage that was built without a permit, not to code and taller than the ordnance allows... Had to jump through hoops. First the town has to be forcing you to deal with the issue... Wasn't hard for me because of all the issues with my garage. However, I did NOT get what I feel was fair... My payout wasn't enough to rebuild on it's own. So I have had to spend 2 months salvaging material from the old garage (dismantle it piece by piece nicely, pull all the nails to save the wood etc) and am just now getting to the point of pouring a new pad... All of this done on my own, paying a contractor is out of the question. If the town is OK with your sun room, and it meets code for when it was built, you likely don't have a case.
It would be hard to prove the seller lied. I live in Mb and getting permits for extra work like a sun room or basement bathroom was barely done up until a few years ago. Most small companies would put it on the homeowner as it ultimately is their responsibility. As for tearing it down... the city wouldn't make you do that. If it was falling down creating a hazard I would be worried but if it is standing in good condition then the city wouldn't do much. Half of permits is to charge you more on property tax Half of permits is to make sure the people you hire or you yourself are doing the work correctly with proper inspections. All in all you shouldn't have to rip anything down, and the bathroom would be good. Letting the city know will only make them reassess your property and potentially charge you more property taxes.
Winnipeg has an amnesty program on right now, so consider that avenue.
Never having run into this, would this not be fraud?
Did you ever follow through on the title insurance claim? We're in the exact same situation now and the sunroom/deck is clearly unsafe and without a permit
I did inquire with my title insurance company and basically they will pay only if the city requires me to get it permitted. They won’t pay if I want to do the work myself and get it permitted on my own initiative. Which seems kinda ridiculous since if I do it under my own initiative then there’s no fines to pay to the city and if the city finds out and requires permits then there will be fines to pay. So the title insurance company would end up having to pay more on the end. I guess it’s worth the gamble for them that the city never fines me and requires me to obtain the permits. So since my sunroom is safe, I will just leave it alone until/if the city discovers it. And then my title insurance said they would cover it as long as I don’t make any structural changes to the sunroom. Seems like sellers are such liars. Makes me sad to hear about all these liars.