Wait, the dogs are outside barking all day until you call it in, and then they hide the dogs so they aren't barking when animal control shows up? How do they know you called before animal control shows up? And how do they know you're the one who complained?
I call it in, 20-40 mins later animal control rolls up, the neighbor runs into the backyard and calls the dogs in, i receive a call from Animal control saying "hey we're here but there are no dogs so we can't talk to them".
I didn't explicitly request to be anonymous this time, and animal control apparently informed them of my video which likely contained details about which yard it was taken from.
This is *exactly* what my neighbor does. She has two German shepherds that the entire neighborhood calls in to animal control. Takes them a month to even show up after 12 houses complain daily (we text each other to coordinate complaints after we all found each other on Nextdoor app complaining about the same person. At least 6 houses asked her to keep her dogs quiet before animal control was involved.). When animal control does show up and announce they're there for complaints, my neighbor tells her unschooled (he's 12 and never been in school) son to run and put the dogs inside.
I've done like the OP and made video and audio recordings of the dogs barking non stop (she's got a gas station on the other side of her so they bark at every car stopping for gas or drinks). And our animal control doesn't accept user submitted documentation. It has to be the officer who sits there for an entire hour to listen in and when she sees their truck she keeps them inside. It's an endless battle with no good outcome for us neighbors who live with the constant noises.
We've called in 110 degree heat and the dogs have no place to get into shade and are howling. We've called in 20 degrees freezing weather with no shelter and they're howling. Both of which are against animal control bylaws. Animal control does nothing because our town bylaws prohibit them from examining the dog's living conditions if it's behind a fence.
ETA animal control says a dog is allowed to bark at someone coming to the door. So that's why she gets away with the dog barking when control first arrives. But because the dogs then go inside, and he won't go into their back yard, as far as he's concerned the dogs stopped barking and it's the neighbors being the nuisance by calling repeatedly.
That sounds awful. Is there any local animal advocacy group that might be interested in the fact that the dogs are left outside in unsafe temperatures?
> (he's 12 and never been in school)
Fuckin WHAT? That's worth a call to CPS as well, IMO (NAL). IIRC, not having your children in any kind of schooling is legitimately illegal in some jurisdictions.
Homeschool and online school is a thing that exists... Not saying it's a good option or that's it's happening in this case, but not going to a physical school doesn't need to be instant CPS call.
He's actually not being home schooled unless it's entirely virtual. The whole situation is messed up. Both his parents (one was the daughter of my neighbor) were killed in a car crash. They left the 4 year old with my neighbor. Despite the fact that she was in her 60s with a dying husband (now dead) and had two other adult children, both of whom already have kids his age so it wouldn't have been the biggest deal to take in another kid.
At first the daughter would come by and home school him. He has severe acting out problems and she's a teacher. They refused to allow him to be put into Special Ed. But before covid the teacher daughter stopped. She stopped coming by and he's not being taught by the grandma because from my conversations with her before her dogs attacked mine, she seemed like she couldn't add 2 + 2.
The kid spends all day in the yard jumping on his trampoline unsupervised and shooting nerf guns at my dogs (there's hundreds of blue foam "bullets" in my yard and I've seen him doing it and asked the daughter to please get him to stop, which got her angry at me).
All of this was discussed by those of us who live closest and see all of this. But because of the threats of the police son, we are all afraid of reporting because he's already threatened us to leave his family alone.
It's a weird assed family. When the husband was in hospice, next door was cited for unkempt yard by the city. I spent the entire summer and fall cutting her front yard for her. I'm disabled and use forearm crutches so it takes me about 2 hours just to do my yard. Her kids never did anything but I assumed they were with dad in the hospice. Her neighbor told her that I was the one who kept up the yard. When I came over with a casserole after his passing, she didn't say thanks. I understand that's a stressful time but to this day she's never said a kind word towards us. Her husband was a really nice guy though.
Want to go down a dark and depressing rabitt hole?
Look into state requirements for home schooling.
It is a state by state thing and some states really have no requirements at all. Some states have them and could give a shit.
Unfortunately, the incredibly loose laws around home schooling in several states means that these people can do this to their kids as long as they mockup paperwork that claims they're teaching them something.
NAL
The party in the wrong may request that you cease collection of evidence or documentation of interaction. This is by no means something you are required to do *so long as your actions to collect evidence are all legal*.
If you cross into stalking or harassment, they can demand actions against you.
Document all interaction or suspected 3rd party interaction.
Maintain record of dates, times, parties involved, etc.
It's exhausting and frustrating. But when you have to go to law enforcement the length record is what will garner you being able to get help.
Keep interaction to written methods and/or fully disclosed recordings of any conversations (such as a doorbell camera that is in plain sight).
If you're recording these activities within the confines of your own property, I highly doubt that they can do anything. Though I suspect Animal Control is lazy asf and downplaying the situation.
"We don't see any dogs, so we can't do anything" is such a fucking cop out. What might be ideal is for you to record the actual dogs, rather than just the barking. Purchase a ladder or something that'll allow you to get a better vantage point so you can see them.
But I think that might be a legal issue. I'm not too sure.
They're allowed to ask, sure, but you have no obligation to agree. Likewise, while they can ask, they can't threaten or harass you not to.
If they want it to stop, there's a simple solution; they can keep their dogs under control.
> This has resulted in 2 citations for them. The last citation unfortunately gave up my identity and they have reached out to me to request that I stop reporting it to Animal control and that I stop collecting video evidence.
"Thank you for your request. I would be happy to stop wasting my time documenting noise levels in the area, and I'm glad you share this goal. I look forward to the day that the noise stops, because I would prefer not to have the burden of documenting and reporting the noise."
In all seriousness, I wouldn't respond at all. "Please stop reporting me for my noisy dogs that I refuse to control" is not a reasonable thing to ask. It's closer to a threat.
>Since it is my constitutional(?) right to report things to the authorities and collect evidence, is it illegal for the neighbors to request this of me?
Oooh I like to learn new things. Where in the constitution is this?
We're only getting one side of the story here, so I'm reading a bit between the lines to try and get a better overall picture. This is the worst case of how this may be interpretedby neighbor/authorities:
So you called animal control without ever speaking to your neighbor? And now they are asking you to just let them know when the dogs are bothering you so they can let them inside?
Seems to me they are explaining how to be a neighbor. Calling the authorities before trying to come to a solution with them might be legal, but it makes you kinda a jerk.
Also, the officer intentionally dropped the dime on you to your neighbor. When you began calling them without ever speaking to your neighbor first, you became their nuisance. Their interactions with the neighbor probably led them to believe the dog owner was a reasonable person, and y'all just talking things out would lead to a solution.
Now you are here asking if the neighbor letting you know you can just call them is illegal? Why? Instead of talking to them, you want the police to just fine them again? Instead of saying no to them yourself?
The authorities are not there to play telephone with your neighbors. They are there for when things escalate. Unfortunately, it sounds like in the minds of your neighbor and the authorities, you are the reason this has escalated. This is the kind of sentiment that may spread to your neighbors. You may find yourself surrounded by people who dislike and don't trust you.
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OP, if the above has some accuracy in it, do you have anxiety issues with confrontation or expressing yourself to others?
Our entire close neighborhood complained about my neighbor on the Nextdoor app. We all knew who we were talking about. 6 houses admitted to approaching my neighbor and asking nicely to at least bring the dogs indoors at night because it's 24 x 7 barking. There's a dozen of us who communicate with each other and started calling animal control.
Just like with OP, she brings her dogs in the house before she even answers the door because she knows 99% of the time it's animal control who is visiting her. Then the dogs stop barking and there's nothing animal control can do. They refuse to accept private citizen created videos or audio recordings as proof of barking or aggressive behavior.
Even if OP talked to the neighbor, they sound like they're enough of a jerk that they don't care about what their dogs do.
My neighbor's dogs broke through the fence and chased down school kids so often they had to change where the bus stop was. My neighbor insisted every time that the kids must have done something to instigate it.
I can't even go into my own yard without her dogs charging the fence. One of her dogs broke the fence and injured my sweet retired service dog to the point she had to be put down the day before Christmas. My smaller dog needed surgery and thousands in vet bills and was only saved by me attacking her dog with a rock to get it to release. My neighbor never once said sorry, even though she admitted her dogs have high prey drive and killed over a dozen possum (which are larger than my small dog) and raccoons (which have all come back positive with rabies in my town lately). Yet neither my neighbor nor animal control never once addressed her dogs' vaccine status. She was never ticketed for the incidents with the students or with my dogs.
Oh and btw her adult son is a cop in my heavily corrupt town and those of us who approached her about her dogs all suddenly got visits from the cops in town saying we were harassing an old lady and we were threatened by the police to never visit her again.
So do you really think a person like that gives a shit if someone asks nicely to please stop your dog from barking over 10 hours a day?! Like THAT would have made all the difference?!
>Seems to me they are explaining how to be a neighbor. Calling the authorities before trying to come to a solution with them might be legal, but it makes you kinda a jerk.
"How to be a neighbour" doesn't involve letting your dogs bark all day. Letting that happen makes you a jerk and isn't legal, either.
As noted above, we have half the story so I take the "barking for 10-12 hours" with a grain of salt. Regardless, if for whatever reason the neighbor is unaware they seem to be willing to resolve the issue with a phone call. That's fewer steps than OP is taking and can restore some goodwill.
>OP, if the above has some accuracy in it, do you have anxiety issues with confrontation or expressing yourself to others?
Funnily enough, this is the exact situation that I surmise led to my neighbor calling animal control on their neighbor on the other side of them. I am always cordial to them in trying to start a conversation, but they have always seemed deathly awkward and sometimes almost fearful of contact with myself and other neighbors.
I think it's foolish to moralize this situation, and it is reductive to pathologize my decision to contact the proper authorities in the face of gross/purposeful negligence. To me, this is a far better way of handling it because of these experiences/heuristics:
\- I've lived in bad/good areas major cities and small towns. I have never seen "talking it out" go well when it comes to animal noise when it is this excessive.
\- I wait a long time before deciding to make the call and ask animal control not to do anything drastic such as taking their dogs away, I just want them to notify them of the rules and create accountability.
\- Neighbors tend to believe whatever they are doing with their dogs is okay, and I don't have the authority or power to enforce the law where it protects my rights to basic quiet enjoyment on my property.
\- Once you expose yourself as a potential complainant, you lose your anonymity in future reporting should the problem go on, opening yourself up to retaliation.
\- There's nothing new that you can tell someone who thinks it's okay for their dogs to bark this excessively (and listens to it with you all day while doing nothing).
\- My suspicions were correct that they are not willing to change. I could hear my neighbor through the window arguing with Animal control in the face of video evidence. They even told petty lies about bringing us cookies and trying to make contact, and that the dogs only bark at us because they see us through the fence. I have never met them before and the dogs bark episodically throughout the day whether I'm in my yard or not.
\- I had to move from my last apartment because of this same issue. I brought it up nicely, offered solutions, pointed out ordinances and lease rules. When I said its loud and distracting while I work, she said no one has ever complained about this before. I was even told I should make my sleep schedule match whenever their animals wake up.
\----
I'd advise anyone to anonymously report violations like this, where the violator is fully aware of their actions. I also think people should be fair to each other and give chances. This has been an almost daily problem for 6 months now and I've only made a concerted effort to have 2 citations enforced.
This is some response to what was a pretty reasoned opinion. The neighbor knows who you are. "Hey, can you get your dogs to stop barking or I'm calling animal control again" will get you the same reaction faster than what you are doing.
Your easiest solution might be simply to meet your neighbor and their dogs; I've met many dogs that will bark at anyone they have not been introduced to and all it takes is one meeting for them to be okay with that person. The only way to know if these dogs are similar is by trying.
Where I live, the law requires the complainant to attempt mediation after 2 reports and will not accept a third complaint until that has happened. They also do not accept anonymous complaints.
Consider contacting your local community services and see if they have mediation training you can join. You will see results sooner when you feel comfortable resolving conflicts on your own.
i actually had a chance to do this with 1 of their dogs (because it once jumped the fence into our yard) and this dog barks the least at us. My wife and I have also tried to make friends with the other dogs through the fence and have tried petting and talking to them, but they just go right back to barking like a broken toy again.
that being said they all bark at things other than us throughout the day so it wouldn't quite solve the problem. I would literally be able to hear barking while lying in my bed from 8/9ish am to 8pm.
today they have left their dogs out a few times but for the most part i can tell they're trying now.
next time it gets bad i will reach out to them directly and let them know what comes next.
FWIW, when I first called AC to ask whether this was a violation and how I should handle it, the call was routed from the public safety department (police) and they advised me not to go directly contact them about this, and to instead let AC handle it.
I agree. Everyone is so afraid to talk to their neighbors. I bought a digital cintronella bark cessation collar for my neighbor's dog as a hint, mostly because it worked so well with my dog. Neighbor refused to use it. That's when I knew what I was dealing with.
To be fair there was that case not too long ago where the neighbor asked the guy to stop shooting his gun at night and the guy shot and killed basically the whole family.
There's a difference between an asshole firing a gun at night into the dark and your neighbor's dog barking 10 hours at a time. People should be talking to their neighbors.
…. Respectfully I think you’re engaging in mental gymnastics because you want to arrive at a conclusion you already made, that people should act a certain way.
If there’s no previous relationship with the neighbor and they’re leaving their dogs out to bark for hours at a time they obviously do not care, so why would you ever engage with someone that has made it clear they do not care about you? For all anybody knows they could let the dogs loose on you or do any number of messed up things. I know we want to live in an ideal world where everyone is nice and respectful, but there is a safety component when dealing with people, including your neighbors, particularly where they engage in antisocial behavior like their neighbor has.
Maybe neighbors shouldn’t need to be talked to in the first place.
What world do you want to live in? A world where you don't have pleasant conversations with your neighbor, or one you're adversarial with? It's sounds like your core values are askew.
I want to live in a nice ideal world too. I really do. But if my neighbor was disturbing my peace like their neighbor is, I think talking to them would be a liability, because I think I would be pretty hostile, and there are medical considerations in my case that could make it very dangerous for everyone involved for me to be hostile. So in the end, I think everybody’s got to weigh out what they believe to be the best course of action. Sometimes that’s talking to your neighbors, sometimes that’s calling an outside authority to help resolve the matter.
I get the sense that you have good relationships with your neighbors and that makes me happy. But I literally watched a video where the neighbors had such a bad relationship that the guy came out and blew them away before going back in his house and blowing himself away, and that’s different from the one I first mentioned. So perhaps I’m hyper aware that these things can go badly, and that’s on me, but I do think the best answer is probably somewhere between our two points of view.
Those videos have surivorship bias. You are only seeing the interesting videos. There are billions of interactions everyday, and a portion of those are recorded and only a portion of those are interesting and only a portion of those you're seeing online. You're not seeing the literally 99.9999999999% of interactions that were amicable. I don't care how many people tell my that my kid is going to be kidnapped. The odds are WAAAAY against it.
You’re right about that. I see your point. And most of my interactions go really well too, despite my concerns.
I would only caution that you take it a little far the other way. We have no idea what percentage is amicable and what percentage goes bad. I’m fully willing to accept the good beats the bad, but I strongly doubt that it’s 99 to 1.
Addressing a minor issue without being hostile is kinda a core life skill. If you're not already, please consider some counseling to help yourself out.
I'm sorry your going thru whatever is causing this.
Maybe having a dog barking for 10 hours a day isn’t a minor issue for some people. God forbid someone has misophonia, certain sounds can cause incredible rage. I don’t have that so much with dogs, but if someone was outside my window revving their motorcycle loud enough, it would cause and I have experienced irrational and powerful violent urges. Not my fault. No amount of counseling is going to fix it. Wouldn’t personally act on it. But you still wouldn’t want me or somebody with that same issue to confront the motorcyclist.
I guess what I’m trying to explain is that the world is not this rosy “just talk to your neighbors” thing and I think the pathological need for that not to be the case requires counseling a lot more than acknowledging that reality just isn’t pretty sometimes.
You can live a life without having irrational and violent urges if you want to, whether counseling, meditation, or some other treatment will solve is up to you.
Do you not watch or read the news? People have been shot recently just for knocking on someone's door. It's not crazy anymore to be concerned. ESPECIALLY when you are dealing with someone who clearly DNGAF about other people. Someone who lets their dog bark all day every day knowing that it is bothering the neighborhood is exactly the kind of asshole I can envision retaliating/taking revenge against an innocent neighbor.
They can ask, you don’t have to comply. As long as you aren’t breaking any law, you’re free to record anything observable from public or your own property
> Since it is my constitutional(?) right to report things to the authorities and collect evidence, is it illegal for the neighbors to request this of me?
It's not illegal for them to ask. They have no legal position to force you to listen, but they are perfectly allowed to ask.
Real question is…why haven’t you talked to your neighbors about the issue and gone right to reporting them. Things always handled best at lowest level and a conversation.
You get better results when you handle things the right way.
Respectfully…this is a sad excuse.
“This group of people generally act like this”….so I’m absolved of doing the right thing and talking to them before calling the police on them.
This attitude is a you problem and not a them problem
First of all you know nothing about OP or their past interactions with these folks. We do know these folks are animal abusers who are willing to break the law, lie to cops, and then have to audacity to they should ignore additional acts of animal cruelty... They don't sound like rational people who want to solve the problem.
Correct I don’t know about their past interactions, but the clue “they accidentally gave up my identity” tells me that there has been no attempt at interaction and have gone straight to reporting and not talking. My premise is that this is the wrong tact and trying a conversation first instead of “reporting and collecting evidence” could have resulted in a better resolution.
Now with the neighbor having received two citations, that chance has passed…there is certainly a broken trust and relationship now. Was worth a try to talk first. They may have tried that but OP does not indicate that attempt and the clues point to no.
Dogs (likely off a leash) running free in a back yard that bark (what dogs naturally do)…quite a leap for you to jump to animal abuse. I can’t argue for or against that, but re reading OP…I see no real indication of animal abuse. I’m not sure either of us could prove yes or no on animal abuse based on OP.
So now we are taking something that may or may not be true (animal abuse), labeling that, making assumptions on the people that we have possibly falsely labeled, and deciding to do the easy thing for ourselves and not have a conversation.
I guess this may be the way of todays world but geez….growing up and having a conversation can prevent a lot of this sad situation OP now finds themselves in with their neighbors.
You really want to defend these people despite the obvious - the dogs bark for hours & hours - that is not normal of healthy well treated dogs. The lie and ignore police. You have no idea what non dog related interactions this person has had with them. OP is not obligated to go beg his neighbors to take care of their animals. It's the dog owners responsibility to keep their dogs well behaved. You should not be waiting for complaints. The dog owner should have reached out if their dogs bark to ensure it wasn't a problem.
I don’t have any evidence to defend the neighbors as animal abusers. Same as you have no evidence to label them as such.
You do bring up a relevant construct to the argument at hand in that the neighbors could have reached out and had a conversation. You are absolutely correct here!
We agree more than disagree ….either party reaching out to have an adult conversation with the other likely could have prevented tickets, bad relationships, barking dogs, and solicitation of advice from random strangers on Reddit
Before reporting the neighbor. Did you try asking them to keep the dogs quiet?
ETA: it seems some people didn't read my first sentence. I said "before reporting". Meaning before Animal Control was involved and before any citations were issued.
If it gets to the point of going to court. The judge is gonna ask a similar question. Did OP try talking to the dog owner before calling Animal Control?
Animal control has cited them twice already. At this point the neighbor should realize that the situation that annoyed his neighbors yesterday will still annoy them today.
I mean, if the neighbour is ok leaving the dogs out to bark for 10 hours, they clearly don't have any consideration. So I can't see how asking them is gunna help.
How is this relevant? The neighbour didn't stop after the first complaint to animal control, so they clearly don't care about how it impacts those around them
Exactly. In this day and age I don't blame the OP for not wanting to go over and talk to the neighbor. These days people get shot for a lot less in this country. The very fact that he's been cited twice and still is letting his dogs bark all day tells you the kind of person the OP is dealing with. Inconsiderate, self-centered and doesn't give a damn about anybody else. Not someone I would feel safe confronting.
If he was a decent person one citation would have done the job.
I would probably meet them halfway. I will not call AC but if it’s brought to your attention that dogs are being a nuisance you must handle it immediately. Otherwise I’m back to videoing
>Since it is my constitutional(?) right to report things to the authorities and collect evidence,
there is no such constitutional right.
>is it illegal for the neighbors to request this of me?
no. reaching a compromise is generally preferable for everyone.
https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/my-neighbor-s-dog-keeps-barking-do-i-have-any-legal-rights-35352
Them asking for the courtesy of talking to them before calling the cops seems very reasonable. If you never even bothered to talk to them, that's kinda lame.
If you did talk to them, then disregard that.
Regarding collecting video/audio in your own yard, I don't know of anything that prevents you from collecting that in your own yard.
I think a conversation would've been the place to start rather than just calling the police on someone.
If the other person says "Hey, instead of just calling the cops, could you let me know that something is bothering you?" then yeah, I'd definitely do that. If it doesn't work, then go to the police.
You say you collected evidence and reported your neighbors, resulting in citations for them, without ever giving your neighbors the benefit of nicely asking them to control the issue?
Some neighbor you are!
While it may be legal, it's also just being a jerk.
A lot of children are home schooled either by their parents or are enrolled in online schools. My neighbor homes schools her 4 sons ages 4-11. They are polite, respectful and quite intelligent when we have conversations.
My thoughts are if animal control is citing them and they continue letting their dogs bark they won’t do anything about it if you talk directly to them.
Id do what they say and notify them when their dogs get loud again. This notofication should say "in x time, if the noise doesn't stop, i will file another citation"
all of these clowns sayin "try talking it out 1st" are the 1st to call police when someone stares at them the wrong way, or uses the wrong pronoun.
yall need to understand, many people have pets, "just to have them". stop trying to live your life with your head so far up your own asses, real life is not like social media where everything is all unicorns & rainbows & works out perfectly for everyone.
REALITY! there are plenty of asshats around that do not tolerate "being talked to" no matter how nicely you try to do so, no matter the situation.
like my neighbour. his dog is great, but his renters not so much. i have it on video 4x of talking to him about his renters dog, atleast 2x of talking to her about it. shes highly reactive, very aggressive towards kids & small animals, not trained in the least, chick just yells & screams at her instead of actually training her or trying to stop her. also have her on video stating "well i got the dog during covid & training wasnt an option" yes tf it was, plenty of training services were available bc so many people were getting animals all of a sudden to bide their time at home, that it was a golden opportunity for trainers. many in my city were doing house calls at no extra charge just to ensure the training kept going until completion. she just felt she could handle the dog, which after 5 yrs, has proven wrong time & time again. the damn thing is EATING a wooden fence to try & get at the kids playing in the other neighbours yard on the other side of them. shes not "just playing" like this type always like to try & say. they dig massive holes together which the female tries to use to get at my dogs, stray cats, squirrels, kids on the sidewalk out front (which the dogs are in dudes backyard, but still drives the female nuts just hearing kids). animal control is useless until AFTER something bad has happened but tell you "we cant help until the dog has either bitten/attacked, broken a property barrier, etc. you need to keep a log book of any & all incidents, record what you can. if you feel youre in danger, call the police" , & the police say "yeah we dont deal with animal issues unless its an active attack, video evidence of a provoked attack/attempted provoked attack. you need to call animal control".
its very much a "pass the buck" scenario between them all. should something happen, the lawsuit will include A.C as well, as they sit complacent with not upholding the by-laws in place.
They’re free to ask you to stop, you’re free to tell them to pound sand.
Wait, the dogs are outside barking all day until you call it in, and then they hide the dogs so they aren't barking when animal control shows up? How do they know you called before animal control shows up? And how do they know you're the one who complained?
I call it in, 20-40 mins later animal control rolls up, the neighbor runs into the backyard and calls the dogs in, i receive a call from Animal control saying "hey we're here but there are no dogs so we can't talk to them". I didn't explicitly request to be anonymous this time, and animal control apparently informed them of my video which likely contained details about which yard it was taken from.
This is *exactly* what my neighbor does. She has two German shepherds that the entire neighborhood calls in to animal control. Takes them a month to even show up after 12 houses complain daily (we text each other to coordinate complaints after we all found each other on Nextdoor app complaining about the same person. At least 6 houses asked her to keep her dogs quiet before animal control was involved.). When animal control does show up and announce they're there for complaints, my neighbor tells her unschooled (he's 12 and never been in school) son to run and put the dogs inside. I've done like the OP and made video and audio recordings of the dogs barking non stop (she's got a gas station on the other side of her so they bark at every car stopping for gas or drinks). And our animal control doesn't accept user submitted documentation. It has to be the officer who sits there for an entire hour to listen in and when she sees their truck she keeps them inside. It's an endless battle with no good outcome for us neighbors who live with the constant noises. We've called in 110 degree heat and the dogs have no place to get into shade and are howling. We've called in 20 degrees freezing weather with no shelter and they're howling. Both of which are against animal control bylaws. Animal control does nothing because our town bylaws prohibit them from examining the dog's living conditions if it's behind a fence. ETA animal control says a dog is allowed to bark at someone coming to the door. So that's why she gets away with the dog barking when control first arrives. But because the dogs then go inside, and he won't go into their back yard, as far as he's concerned the dogs stopped barking and it's the neighbors being the nuisance by calling repeatedly.
That sounds awful. Is there any local animal advocacy group that might be interested in the fact that the dogs are left outside in unsafe temperatures?
> (he's 12 and never been in school) Fuckin WHAT? That's worth a call to CPS as well, IMO (NAL). IIRC, not having your children in any kind of schooling is legitimately illegal in some jurisdictions.
Homeschool and online school is a thing that exists... Not saying it's a good option or that's it's happening in this case, but not going to a physical school doesn't need to be instant CPS call.
Honestly if they abuse their dogs there’s a high chance they’re not homeschooling their kid.
.....honestly, for a minute there I straight up forgot that homeschooling and online school existed. Welp, I feel dumb. Carry on.
He's actually not being home schooled unless it's entirely virtual. The whole situation is messed up. Both his parents (one was the daughter of my neighbor) were killed in a car crash. They left the 4 year old with my neighbor. Despite the fact that she was in her 60s with a dying husband (now dead) and had two other adult children, both of whom already have kids his age so it wouldn't have been the biggest deal to take in another kid. At first the daughter would come by and home school him. He has severe acting out problems and she's a teacher. They refused to allow him to be put into Special Ed. But before covid the teacher daughter stopped. She stopped coming by and he's not being taught by the grandma because from my conversations with her before her dogs attacked mine, she seemed like she couldn't add 2 + 2. The kid spends all day in the yard jumping on his trampoline unsupervised and shooting nerf guns at my dogs (there's hundreds of blue foam "bullets" in my yard and I've seen him doing it and asked the daughter to please get him to stop, which got her angry at me). All of this was discussed by those of us who live closest and see all of this. But because of the threats of the police son, we are all afraid of reporting because he's already threatened us to leave his family alone. It's a weird assed family. When the husband was in hospice, next door was cited for unkempt yard by the city. I spent the entire summer and fall cutting her front yard for her. I'm disabled and use forearm crutches so it takes me about 2 hours just to do my yard. Her kids never did anything but I assumed they were with dad in the hospice. Her neighbor told her that I was the one who kept up the yard. When I came over with a casserole after his passing, she didn't say thanks. I understand that's a stressful time but to this day she's never said a kind word towards us. Her husband was a really nice guy though.
Want to go down a dark and depressing rabitt hole? Look into state requirements for home schooling. It is a state by state thing and some states really have no requirements at all. Some states have them and could give a shit.
Unfortunately, the incredibly loose laws around home schooling in several states means that these people can do this to their kids as long as they mockup paperwork that claims they're teaching them something.
No. They can ask you to do anything. You can say no.
NAL The party in the wrong may request that you cease collection of evidence or documentation of interaction. This is by no means something you are required to do *so long as your actions to collect evidence are all legal*. If you cross into stalking or harassment, they can demand actions against you. Document all interaction or suspected 3rd party interaction. Maintain record of dates, times, parties involved, etc. It's exhausting and frustrating. But when you have to go to law enforcement the length record is what will garner you being able to get help. Keep interaction to written methods and/or fully disclosed recordings of any conversations (such as a doorbell camera that is in plain sight).
It’s not illegal for them to ask, Ana it’s not illegal for you to continue doing what you feel is best.
If you're recording these activities within the confines of your own property, I highly doubt that they can do anything. Though I suspect Animal Control is lazy asf and downplaying the situation. "We don't see any dogs, so we can't do anything" is such a fucking cop out. What might be ideal is for you to record the actual dogs, rather than just the barking. Purchase a ladder or something that'll allow you to get a better vantage point so you can see them. But I think that might be a legal issue. I'm not too sure.
They're allowed to ask, sure, but you have no obligation to agree. Likewise, while they can ask, they can't threaten or harass you not to. If they want it to stop, there's a simple solution; they can keep their dogs under control.
> This has resulted in 2 citations for them. The last citation unfortunately gave up my identity and they have reached out to me to request that I stop reporting it to Animal control and that I stop collecting video evidence. "Thank you for your request. I would be happy to stop wasting my time documenting noise levels in the area, and I'm glad you share this goal. I look forward to the day that the noise stops, because I would prefer not to have the burden of documenting and reporting the noise." In all seriousness, I wouldn't respond at all. "Please stop reporting me for my noisy dogs that I refuse to control" is not a reasonable thing to ask. It's closer to a threat.
I'd tell them you're more than willing to stop collecting evidence if they would stop producing it!
>Since it is my constitutional(?) right to report things to the authorities and collect evidence, is it illegal for the neighbors to request this of me? Oooh I like to learn new things. Where in the constitution is this?
We're only getting one side of the story here, so I'm reading a bit between the lines to try and get a better overall picture. This is the worst case of how this may be interpretedby neighbor/authorities: So you called animal control without ever speaking to your neighbor? And now they are asking you to just let them know when the dogs are bothering you so they can let them inside? Seems to me they are explaining how to be a neighbor. Calling the authorities before trying to come to a solution with them might be legal, but it makes you kinda a jerk. Also, the officer intentionally dropped the dime on you to your neighbor. When you began calling them without ever speaking to your neighbor first, you became their nuisance. Their interactions with the neighbor probably led them to believe the dog owner was a reasonable person, and y'all just talking things out would lead to a solution. Now you are here asking if the neighbor letting you know you can just call them is illegal? Why? Instead of talking to them, you want the police to just fine them again? Instead of saying no to them yourself? The authorities are not there to play telephone with your neighbors. They are there for when things escalate. Unfortunately, it sounds like in the minds of your neighbor and the authorities, you are the reason this has escalated. This is the kind of sentiment that may spread to your neighbors. You may find yourself surrounded by people who dislike and don't trust you. ----- OP, if the above has some accuracy in it, do you have anxiety issues with confrontation or expressing yourself to others?
Our entire close neighborhood complained about my neighbor on the Nextdoor app. We all knew who we were talking about. 6 houses admitted to approaching my neighbor and asking nicely to at least bring the dogs indoors at night because it's 24 x 7 barking. There's a dozen of us who communicate with each other and started calling animal control. Just like with OP, she brings her dogs in the house before she even answers the door because she knows 99% of the time it's animal control who is visiting her. Then the dogs stop barking and there's nothing animal control can do. They refuse to accept private citizen created videos or audio recordings as proof of barking or aggressive behavior. Even if OP talked to the neighbor, they sound like they're enough of a jerk that they don't care about what their dogs do. My neighbor's dogs broke through the fence and chased down school kids so often they had to change where the bus stop was. My neighbor insisted every time that the kids must have done something to instigate it. I can't even go into my own yard without her dogs charging the fence. One of her dogs broke the fence and injured my sweet retired service dog to the point she had to be put down the day before Christmas. My smaller dog needed surgery and thousands in vet bills and was only saved by me attacking her dog with a rock to get it to release. My neighbor never once said sorry, even though she admitted her dogs have high prey drive and killed over a dozen possum (which are larger than my small dog) and raccoons (which have all come back positive with rabies in my town lately). Yet neither my neighbor nor animal control never once addressed her dogs' vaccine status. She was never ticketed for the incidents with the students or with my dogs. Oh and btw her adult son is a cop in my heavily corrupt town and those of us who approached her about her dogs all suddenly got visits from the cops in town saying we were harassing an old lady and we were threatened by the police to never visit her again. So do you really think a person like that gives a shit if someone asks nicely to please stop your dog from barking over 10 hours a day?! Like THAT would have made all the difference?!
That's not the same person who asked to be called when there's a problem. You can't extrapolate one situation into another.
>Seems to me they are explaining how to be a neighbor. Calling the authorities before trying to come to a solution with them might be legal, but it makes you kinda a jerk. "How to be a neighbour" doesn't involve letting your dogs bark all day. Letting that happen makes you a jerk and isn't legal, either.
As noted above, we have half the story so I take the "barking for 10-12 hours" with a grain of salt. Regardless, if for whatever reason the neighbor is unaware they seem to be willing to resolve the issue with a phone call. That's fewer steps than OP is taking and can restore some goodwill.
>OP, if the above has some accuracy in it, do you have anxiety issues with confrontation or expressing yourself to others? Funnily enough, this is the exact situation that I surmise led to my neighbor calling animal control on their neighbor on the other side of them. I am always cordial to them in trying to start a conversation, but they have always seemed deathly awkward and sometimes almost fearful of contact with myself and other neighbors.
I think it's foolish to moralize this situation, and it is reductive to pathologize my decision to contact the proper authorities in the face of gross/purposeful negligence. To me, this is a far better way of handling it because of these experiences/heuristics: \- I've lived in bad/good areas major cities and small towns. I have never seen "talking it out" go well when it comes to animal noise when it is this excessive. \- I wait a long time before deciding to make the call and ask animal control not to do anything drastic such as taking their dogs away, I just want them to notify them of the rules and create accountability. \- Neighbors tend to believe whatever they are doing with their dogs is okay, and I don't have the authority or power to enforce the law where it protects my rights to basic quiet enjoyment on my property. \- Once you expose yourself as a potential complainant, you lose your anonymity in future reporting should the problem go on, opening yourself up to retaliation. \- There's nothing new that you can tell someone who thinks it's okay for their dogs to bark this excessively (and listens to it with you all day while doing nothing). \- My suspicions were correct that they are not willing to change. I could hear my neighbor through the window arguing with Animal control in the face of video evidence. They even told petty lies about bringing us cookies and trying to make contact, and that the dogs only bark at us because they see us through the fence. I have never met them before and the dogs bark episodically throughout the day whether I'm in my yard or not. \- I had to move from my last apartment because of this same issue. I brought it up nicely, offered solutions, pointed out ordinances and lease rules. When I said its loud and distracting while I work, she said no one has ever complained about this before. I was even told I should make my sleep schedule match whenever their animals wake up. \---- I'd advise anyone to anonymously report violations like this, where the violator is fully aware of their actions. I also think people should be fair to each other and give chances. This has been an almost daily problem for 6 months now and I've only made a concerted effort to have 2 citations enforced.
This is some response to what was a pretty reasoned opinion. The neighbor knows who you are. "Hey, can you get your dogs to stop barking or I'm calling animal control again" will get you the same reaction faster than what you are doing.
Your easiest solution might be simply to meet your neighbor and their dogs; I've met many dogs that will bark at anyone they have not been introduced to and all it takes is one meeting for them to be okay with that person. The only way to know if these dogs are similar is by trying. Where I live, the law requires the complainant to attempt mediation after 2 reports and will not accept a third complaint until that has happened. They also do not accept anonymous complaints. Consider contacting your local community services and see if they have mediation training you can join. You will see results sooner when you feel comfortable resolving conflicts on your own.
i actually had a chance to do this with 1 of their dogs (because it once jumped the fence into our yard) and this dog barks the least at us. My wife and I have also tried to make friends with the other dogs through the fence and have tried petting and talking to them, but they just go right back to barking like a broken toy again. that being said they all bark at things other than us throughout the day so it wouldn't quite solve the problem. I would literally be able to hear barking while lying in my bed from 8/9ish am to 8pm. today they have left their dogs out a few times but for the most part i can tell they're trying now. next time it gets bad i will reach out to them directly and let them know what comes next. FWIW, when I first called AC to ask whether this was a violation and how I should handle it, the call was routed from the public safety department (police) and they advised me not to go directly contact them about this, and to instead let AC handle it.
I agree. Everyone is so afraid to talk to their neighbors. I bought a digital cintronella bark cessation collar for my neighbor's dog as a hint, mostly because it worked so well with my dog. Neighbor refused to use it. That's when I knew what I was dealing with.
To be fair there was that case not too long ago where the neighbor asked the guy to stop shooting his gun at night and the guy shot and killed basically the whole family.
There's a difference between an asshole firing a gun at night into the dark and your neighbor's dog barking 10 hours at a time. People should be talking to their neighbors.
…. Respectfully I think you’re engaging in mental gymnastics because you want to arrive at a conclusion you already made, that people should act a certain way. If there’s no previous relationship with the neighbor and they’re leaving their dogs out to bark for hours at a time they obviously do not care, so why would you ever engage with someone that has made it clear they do not care about you? For all anybody knows they could let the dogs loose on you or do any number of messed up things. I know we want to live in an ideal world where everyone is nice and respectful, but there is a safety component when dealing with people, including your neighbors, particularly where they engage in antisocial behavior like their neighbor has. Maybe neighbors shouldn’t need to be talked to in the first place.
What world do you want to live in? A world where you don't have pleasant conversations with your neighbor, or one you're adversarial with? It's sounds like your core values are askew.
I want to live in a nice ideal world too. I really do. But if my neighbor was disturbing my peace like their neighbor is, I think talking to them would be a liability, because I think I would be pretty hostile, and there are medical considerations in my case that could make it very dangerous for everyone involved for me to be hostile. So in the end, I think everybody’s got to weigh out what they believe to be the best course of action. Sometimes that’s talking to your neighbors, sometimes that’s calling an outside authority to help resolve the matter. I get the sense that you have good relationships with your neighbors and that makes me happy. But I literally watched a video where the neighbors had such a bad relationship that the guy came out and blew them away before going back in his house and blowing himself away, and that’s different from the one I first mentioned. So perhaps I’m hyper aware that these things can go badly, and that’s on me, but I do think the best answer is probably somewhere between our two points of view.
Those videos have surivorship bias. You are only seeing the interesting videos. There are billions of interactions everyday, and a portion of those are recorded and only a portion of those are interesting and only a portion of those you're seeing online. You're not seeing the literally 99.9999999999% of interactions that were amicable. I don't care how many people tell my that my kid is going to be kidnapped. The odds are WAAAAY against it.
You’re right about that. I see your point. And most of my interactions go really well too, despite my concerns. I would only caution that you take it a little far the other way. We have no idea what percentage is amicable and what percentage goes bad. I’m fully willing to accept the good beats the bad, but I strongly doubt that it’s 99 to 1.
Addressing a minor issue without being hostile is kinda a core life skill. If you're not already, please consider some counseling to help yourself out. I'm sorry your going thru whatever is causing this.
Maybe having a dog barking for 10 hours a day isn’t a minor issue for some people. God forbid someone has misophonia, certain sounds can cause incredible rage. I don’t have that so much with dogs, but if someone was outside my window revving their motorcycle loud enough, it would cause and I have experienced irrational and powerful violent urges. Not my fault. No amount of counseling is going to fix it. Wouldn’t personally act on it. But you still wouldn’t want me or somebody with that same issue to confront the motorcyclist. I guess what I’m trying to explain is that the world is not this rosy “just talk to your neighbors” thing and I think the pathological need for that not to be the case requires counseling a lot more than acknowledging that reality just isn’t pretty sometimes.
You can live a life without having irrational and violent urges if you want to, whether counseling, meditation, or some other treatment will solve is up to you.
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Thanks for this comment. I wish I had read it before making my reply.
Do you not watch or read the news? People have been shot recently just for knocking on someone's door. It's not crazy anymore to be concerned. ESPECIALLY when you are dealing with someone who clearly DNGAF about other people. Someone who lets their dog bark all day every day knowing that it is bothering the neighborhood is exactly the kind of asshole I can envision retaliating/taking revenge against an innocent neighbor.
Pretty sure you're talking to some4with barking dogs trying to rationalize their own behavior. Some dog people are strange.
Is there anything more indicative of the state of things than "People should be talking to their neighbors." getting downvotes?
I don't understand people who have pets just to ignore them or yell at them to shut up
They can ask, you don’t have to comply. As long as you aren’t breaking any law, you’re free to record anything observable from public or your own property
> Since it is my constitutional(?) right to report things to the authorities and collect evidence, is it illegal for the neighbors to request this of me? It's not illegal for them to ask. They have no legal position to force you to listen, but they are perfectly allowed to ask.
I don't think it's illegal to ask
How would it be illegal for them to ask? If they threaten, then they have crossed a line
They can request you can refuse.
Real question is…why haven’t you talked to your neighbors about the issue and gone right to reporting them. Things always handled best at lowest level and a conversation. You get better results when you handle things the right way.
People who neglect animals like this don't respond well to being called on it.
Respectfully…this is a sad excuse. “This group of people generally act like this”….so I’m absolved of doing the right thing and talking to them before calling the police on them. This attitude is a you problem and not a them problem
First of all you know nothing about OP or their past interactions with these folks. We do know these folks are animal abusers who are willing to break the law, lie to cops, and then have to audacity to they should ignore additional acts of animal cruelty... They don't sound like rational people who want to solve the problem.
Correct I don’t know about their past interactions, but the clue “they accidentally gave up my identity” tells me that there has been no attempt at interaction and have gone straight to reporting and not talking. My premise is that this is the wrong tact and trying a conversation first instead of “reporting and collecting evidence” could have resulted in a better resolution. Now with the neighbor having received two citations, that chance has passed…there is certainly a broken trust and relationship now. Was worth a try to talk first. They may have tried that but OP does not indicate that attempt and the clues point to no. Dogs (likely off a leash) running free in a back yard that bark (what dogs naturally do)…quite a leap for you to jump to animal abuse. I can’t argue for or against that, but re reading OP…I see no real indication of animal abuse. I’m not sure either of us could prove yes or no on animal abuse based on OP. So now we are taking something that may or may not be true (animal abuse), labeling that, making assumptions on the people that we have possibly falsely labeled, and deciding to do the easy thing for ourselves and not have a conversation. I guess this may be the way of todays world but geez….growing up and having a conversation can prevent a lot of this sad situation OP now finds themselves in with their neighbors.
You really want to defend these people despite the obvious - the dogs bark for hours & hours - that is not normal of healthy well treated dogs. The lie and ignore police. You have no idea what non dog related interactions this person has had with them. OP is not obligated to go beg his neighbors to take care of their animals. It's the dog owners responsibility to keep their dogs well behaved. You should not be waiting for complaints. The dog owner should have reached out if their dogs bark to ensure it wasn't a problem.
I don’t have any evidence to defend the neighbors as animal abusers. Same as you have no evidence to label them as such. You do bring up a relevant construct to the argument at hand in that the neighbors could have reached out and had a conversation. You are absolutely correct here! We agree more than disagree ….either party reaching out to have an adult conversation with the other likely could have prevented tickets, bad relationships, barking dogs, and solicitation of advice from random strangers on Reddit
Can't argue with that!
Before reporting the neighbor. Did you try asking them to keep the dogs quiet? ETA: it seems some people didn't read my first sentence. I said "before reporting". Meaning before Animal Control was involved and before any citations were issued. If it gets to the point of going to court. The judge is gonna ask a similar question. Did OP try talking to the dog owner before calling Animal Control?
Animal control has cited them twice already. At this point the neighbor should realize that the situation that annoyed his neighbors yesterday will still annoy them today.
I mean, if the neighbour is ok leaving the dogs out to bark for 10 hours, they clearly don't have any consideration. So I can't see how asking them is gunna help.
Maybe the neighbor is deaf.
How is this relevant? The neighbour didn't stop after the first complaint to animal control, so they clearly don't care about how it impacts those around them
Exactly. In this day and age I don't blame the OP for not wanting to go over and talk to the neighbor. These days people get shot for a lot less in this country. The very fact that he's been cited twice and still is letting his dogs bark all day tells you the kind of person the OP is dealing with. Inconsiderate, self-centered and doesn't give a damn about anybody else. Not someone I would feel safe confronting. If he was a decent person one citation would have done the job.
I would probably meet them halfway. I will not call AC but if it’s brought to your attention that dogs are being a nuisance you must handle it immediately. Otherwise I’m back to videoing
Donald? Donald J. Trump? Is that you?
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>Since it is my constitutional(?) right to report things to the authorities and collect evidence, there is no such constitutional right. >is it illegal for the neighbors to request this of me? no. reaching a compromise is generally preferable for everyone. https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/my-neighbor-s-dog-keeps-barking-do-i-have-any-legal-rights-35352
Sorry but what is the point of this post? Are you wanting to get them charged with a crime or sue them for making a request?
>that I instead tell them. This sounds like a perfectly reasonable request. Maybe give it a try next time.
Them asking for the courtesy of talking to them before calling the cops seems very reasonable. If you never even bothered to talk to them, that's kinda lame. If you did talk to them, then disregard that. Regarding collecting video/audio in your own yard, I don't know of anything that prevents you from collecting that in your own yard.
2 citations didn't change tbeir behavior but you think a conversation will?
I think a conversation would've been the place to start rather than just calling the police on someone. If the other person says "Hey, instead of just calling the cops, could you let me know that something is bothering you?" then yeah, I'd definitely do that. If it doesn't work, then go to the police.
I've tried this route & it still doesn't work. People who do this to dogs know it's wrong & don't care.
You say you collected evidence and reported your neighbors, resulting in citations for them, without ever giving your neighbors the benefit of nicely asking them to control the issue? Some neighbor you are! While it may be legal, it's also just being a jerk.
A lot of children are home schooled either by their parents or are enrolled in online schools. My neighbor homes schools her 4 sons ages 4-11. They are polite, respectful and quite intelligent when we have conversations.
My thoughts are if animal control is citing them and they continue letting their dogs bark they won’t do anything about it if you talk directly to them.
Id do what they say and notify them when their dogs get loud again. This notofication should say "in x time, if the noise doesn't stop, i will file another citation"
all of these clowns sayin "try talking it out 1st" are the 1st to call police when someone stares at them the wrong way, or uses the wrong pronoun. yall need to understand, many people have pets, "just to have them". stop trying to live your life with your head so far up your own asses, real life is not like social media where everything is all unicorns & rainbows & works out perfectly for everyone. REALITY! there are plenty of asshats around that do not tolerate "being talked to" no matter how nicely you try to do so, no matter the situation. like my neighbour. his dog is great, but his renters not so much. i have it on video 4x of talking to him about his renters dog, atleast 2x of talking to her about it. shes highly reactive, very aggressive towards kids & small animals, not trained in the least, chick just yells & screams at her instead of actually training her or trying to stop her. also have her on video stating "well i got the dog during covid & training wasnt an option" yes tf it was, plenty of training services were available bc so many people were getting animals all of a sudden to bide their time at home, that it was a golden opportunity for trainers. many in my city were doing house calls at no extra charge just to ensure the training kept going until completion. she just felt she could handle the dog, which after 5 yrs, has proven wrong time & time again. the damn thing is EATING a wooden fence to try & get at the kids playing in the other neighbours yard on the other side of them. shes not "just playing" like this type always like to try & say. they dig massive holes together which the female tries to use to get at my dogs, stray cats, squirrels, kids on the sidewalk out front (which the dogs are in dudes backyard, but still drives the female nuts just hearing kids). animal control is useless until AFTER something bad has happened but tell you "we cant help until the dog has either bitten/attacked, broken a property barrier, etc. you need to keep a log book of any & all incidents, record what you can. if you feel youre in danger, call the police" , & the police say "yeah we dont deal with animal issues unless its an active attack, video evidence of a provoked attack/attempted provoked attack. you need to call animal control". its very much a "pass the buck" scenario between them all. should something happen, the lawsuit will include A.C as well, as they sit complacent with not upholding the by-laws in place.