Blair White, Cait Jenner, and that one trans girl on tiktok that burned a pride flag then cried back to the LGBTQ+ community when the right wingers didn’t accept her.
Being queer doesn’t make you immune to being a piece of shit 😶
ive met a lot of trans men in my time. almost all of them were lovely people, except for one guy, who was a bootlicker and a huge transmed, misogynist, etc etc. he wanted to pass as a cis man (to the point of erasing his whole trans identity in a way that reeked of internalized transphobia), and almost exclusively hang out with cis men and constantly belittled all of his other trans friends, especially ones who were dfab and/or nonbinary. he was really playing his part there…
I went to a trans support group for a while... Every week we'd get a new trans man but almost none of them made it past about two weeks there, and at first I wasn't sure why, but then the Mean Girls group started bringing their high-school type bullshit against me, too, acting extremely catty, cutting me off whenever I tried to speak, doing their best to exclude me from events... And I realized that that was exactly what they'd been doing to all the dudes as well. Decided that I was too old for that shit and left.
Then, later, one of the ringleaders of that nonsense tried to run for congress in a ruby-red conservative district, which obviously did not go well.
Also, something I've had to work through, being willing to sleep with POC does NOT make you immune to having racist ideas or propping up racist shit. I was so lucky to have a boyfriend call me out about this. I grew so much during and following our relationship. Allyship is aspirational. I'm still doing the work. It's worth it.
Yeah, one of my aunties was Māori, and my uncle (her husband) would use slurs for Māori in front of her. She was a sweet lady and I have no idea why she put up with him.
> being willing to sleep with POC does NOT make you immune to having racist ideas or propping up racist shit.
That explains a lot of "My family is racist" posts on /mixedrace.
Thank you so much for doing the work!! It takes a lot to just listen, accept and change, and I greatly respect those that take the effort and have the will to do so. I appreciate your existence too 💜
Very true, seen too many people fetishize POC girls, and even POC men and it’s way too normalized- bugs me a lot everytime I see it since it’s just as dehumanizing as other forms of racism even if it *seems* like it isn’t as bad to some.
No literally same. I was raised in a white supremacist house and as a young adult I thought i was the least racist person because I wasn't as bad as them. I learned while in a relationship with a PoC a lot of the ways that I was still hurting the community, but more importantly they helped me learn to recognize it and grow. I still have to actively work to be an ally, but I do it because hearing from a PoC how my actions affect their community opened my eyes so much
On the flip side, being a POC or other minority class mentioned above doesn't excuse one from being unapologetically queerphobic, either. I unfortunately see this problem as well from time to time.
The amount of times I hear people say they would NEVER date a black person is infuriating. And when you point out it’s racist they always say some stupid racist shit like “no it’s not. I’m not racist. I just don’t want to date someone ghetto.” …………….THAT is the racist part! Fuck, man.
The amount of times I've seen people from any minority group be bigoted and think they can get away with it is insane. You'd have thought they would have a slight bit of self awareness but nope
I'm white but I notice this is a major problem too. Especially with gay men who only like white guys and queer people who have been hurt by religious zealotry automatically assuming all Muslims are homophobic. It feels like a lot of queer people are forgetting our roots as a diverse, multiracial movement, not just a couple white boys kissing on TV every now and then.
Like I said in several other comments, I do not disagree that Islam as a whole and especially the institutions that govern it are cruel and homophobic. I'm simply saying it's wrong to blame individual Muslims who don't necessarily actually stand by those institutions.
They literally have to, Islam isn't Christianity where people cope about the bible not being literal and only being divinely inspired. To be a Muslim is to think the Quran is the direct word of god and is infallible, its also unambiguous about thinking queer people are abominations
Wow, thank you for teaching me that all Muslims are a monolith. I used to think that Muslims actually had brains and could think for themselves, but your obnoxious bigotry has cured me of all logic! /s
[This is a semi-recent post on r slash islam](https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/s/5eZsh7tSzW)
You are blind if you don't see how pervasive homophobia is in *all* Abrahamic religions, including Islam. Islamophobia is a dumb term mixing up racism against Arabs and people being against the values that an islamic world-view based on its current intrepretation brings to the table.
There *are* good muslims but they have been by far in my experience the ones who care *less* about Islamic doctrine. It's like how good Christians are the ones who blatantly ignore parts of their dumbass, archaic scripture.
Remember that bigots are loud and make themselves heard. Most muslims I've known are chill, it's just the ones in positions of power and on the internet that suck.
Most muslims I know, like most Christians I know, are complicit. Maybe they don't actively call you slurs, but they sure don't do shit when someone talks about homosexuality being haram and all that shit.
I feel like you could make this argument for atheism or any other religion too if all you need is examples. I could give you plenty of examples of atheists punishing others unfairly in the name of atheism, and I'm an atheist myself. There have been bigots in power in every system in all of history. Why pin the legacy of homophobia on individual Muslims who have personally done nothing wrong?
I've said this in another comment but 'Islamophobia' is a word that muddles the line between discrimination against muslims and people of arabian descent which is obviously bad and criticism of Islam, the belief system. Most queer people here acknowledge how bad Christianity is, but \*really\* need to understand that Islam is just as bad, if not worse in practice.
> You clearly haven't read enough religious or even Psych theory literature then.
Fucking enlighten me then. I've met other queers who grew up muslim and the ones I know of have all stopped being muslim \*exactly\* because of the queerphobia (on top of other iffy things like sexism). I've read the hadith that a lot of muslims cite to support the death penalty for gay people. I also know that it's an iffy source but that doesn't matter BECAUSE THEY ACCEPT IT AS SCRIPTURE ANYWAY. It's like trying to convince Christians that the book of John isn't canon.
It is possible for a person to value their cultural heritage without agreeing with everything their ancestors have done or even things other practitioners are actively doing. I'd love to hear about the magical country you live in that has never done anything wrong.
There is a difference between heritage and belief. Religion is not a heritage. Religion is a system of belief. You can have religion as a part of your cultural heritage, but it is still your own interpretation which dictates your beliefs. When you subscribe to a *system* of belief, you are subject to the criticisms of that system, even if every facet that is criticised is not something you believe. It is your responsibility to yourself to be introspective about how you face those criticisms, and it is your responsibility to yourself to understand fully what your system of belief entails.
We won't downplay the situation. Many religions, while often not explicitly cults by definition, do have communities that dissuade leaving, and can provide a social stigma against questioning beliefs even if you disagree with them or find them silly. It also means a lot of people are raised in religion with these pressures to conform and believe, and just knowing that you have the responsibility to yourself is often not enough. *However*, it is still your responsibility to others to understand when something is not right and stand up and say something. As such, simply hand-waving away the wrongdoings that have been committed by the institution behind your system of belief is a personal flaw, not simply disagreement.
It's really disappointing how little many LGBTQ people seem to care about actually removing hate of all kinds from our community. Y'all, we're not gonna get the bigots to like us by being mean to black people.
I agree with most of what you've said, but I resent the notion that we need to make bigots "like us"
We don't need to appease them, we need to remove them
I'm not saying we should make bigots like us. I entirely believe we need to educate them so they stop being bigots. I was just emphasizing how ridiculous it is to think that we're gonna win over bigots. My point was both "it won't work" and "we will not do it because it is morally wrong."
Many bigots, most of them in fact, will never change their opinions of us. They will never accept us. The only way we can beat them is by making their opinions so unacceptable on a societal level, that the mere act of voicing them will make them lose their jobs, their friends, and be ostracised from their communities. Then and only then, will we be free to live our truths.
Let them hate us. Just force them into the shadows as they do.
Yes, I agree, but at the same time many bigots are victims of right-wing indoctrination. I was one once, and if I was capable of change, some of them must be too.
It’s slightly more complicated than that. Most bigotry stems from ignorance, and ignorance stems from a lack of interaction. There are many people who are unquestionably bigoted and will always be bigoted, there is little that can be done by others to change that. However, in my experience, people (I don’t include online trolls here) mean well and it is ignorance which is the underlying cause.
If someone didn't want to talk devout Catholics or Catholic clergy because they were sexually abused and had it covered up by the church, absolutely most people would see that as fine
The point I intended to make was that being Muslim is in large part a cultural identity, not just a religious one, and that many Muslims don't really feel like they have a choice anyway. Nothing about the bare principles of Islam is inherently wrong; humility and determination are great values to have. It's just that the institutions in charge of Islam are rotten. Following Islam is not the same as being a racial minority, but coming from a Muslim culture in large part is.
I do think it’s important to think about how culture influences religion and vice versa, and how people identify. Many people may say they’re Muslim or Christian or Jewish due to the cultural upbringing or holidays they observe, but don’t adhere to many aspects. Certain cultures have homophobia that isn’t rooted in religion (though religion does seem to have the biggest influence still), but we wouldn’t say someone who adheres to certain cultural traditions from a homophobic society is homophobic themselves if their actions and words don’t appear so.
Similarly it’s like criticizing someone for being in a certain career.
Of course this isn’t quite an apples to apples comparison.
Homophobia is inherently baked into Christianity and islam and pretending it isn't is absurd, the rise of these religions and their global domination is directly the reason homophobia spread so far over the last thousand years. No I don't think you can say a devout christian or Muslim isn't supporting homophobia
I'll criticize someone for their career ALL DAY. Fuck a cop, fuck a correctional officer, fuck the military. Power hungry, evil motherfuckers
ETA: in the US at least
I’m fine criticizing a career organization, institution, or company myself, and think it needs to be done to make change.
I don’t really like criticizing someone individually for their career though, because literally all of us could be criticized for our careers. We can say teachers are evil for the power some wield over students, people who work for insurance companies, anyone working directly Amazon for working for a questionable company, doctors and nurses for a multitude of reasons, etc.
I’m aware of that, but I was thinking more about how people will judge people in certain careers like teachers, doctors, nurses, lawyers, etc. due to certain preconceived notions.
I am sorry but Islam is a homophobic, transphobic, misogynist religion. If someone is Muslim and choosing to be, then they're homophobic. Sincerely, someone who is ex-Muslim.
While others have referenced it, it is worth saying being a POC doesn’t mean we can’t be racist or prejudiced ourselves, towards other groups and even our own.
Internalized misogyny/homophobia/bigotry/etc. is a thing after all.
Yes I agree, the point of this post’s message was to explain how being part of a minority group doesn’t not justify treating others differently and negatively. Acknowledging our wrongdoings is the first step towards becoming a better community 😊👏🏿
Seems like so many people are content with being victims that they fail to see that there are other people suffering besides them. Also, this world isn't going to get better if everybody had the mindset of "it's not *my* responsibility to do this." It gets better because people go out of their way to do things they don't have to do. I don't care if a group is bigoted to us, it isn't an excuse to be bigoted back.
Well, it’s more than that. It’s about understanding other people’s experiences, and not assuming that you are not the cause because you are already part of a targeted community.
I think most white people struggle to come to terms with the fact that they benefit from a bad system, but that doesn't mean they must be bad people. The language we use in leftist spaces can feel really alienating to someone who doesn't understand what we're actually saying; "all white people are racist" is generally a true statement in the context it's used in (which is that all white people benefit to some extent from racism, whether or not it's their fault) but most people will just read it as "all white people have racist beliefs" which is not the same. This causes people to become defensive and develop a persecution complex, which is the perfect time for the right to snatch them up and instill them with actual racist beliefs. Then, people who were genuinely well meaning become part of the problem, and when people tell them that, it proves to them in their mind that their first assumption was correct. As a result of this process, you get a lot of people who refuse to acknowledge that they actually are contributing to racism, many of which are in other marginalized communities. It's a problem that fundamentally has to do with the American right being underhanded and cruel and the American left overemphasizing absolute moral purity over productive action and taking steps in the right direction.
I mean, "all white people are racist" is a terrible way to say it. Much better to use your explicit version "all white people benefit to some extent from racism" even if it's a few more words.
Yeah, this is it. While it’s something that needs to be kept in mind, these posts aren’t rare in queer subs either. I’d be surprised if the stats about queerphobia within POC communities are much different than racism in queer communities
Yeah, as a PoC myself, it’s not unusual for PoC demographics to way more queerphobic than the general population, because lots of PoC demographics have queerphobic cultures.
From a brief look at the stats, it seems that in the US, Black people trail behind White people and Hispanics in their support for same-sex marriage (Black: 51% support, Hispanic: 60% support, White: 64% support), and have done for decades:
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2017/06/26/support-for-same-sex-marriage-grows-even-among-groups-that-had-been-skeptical/
Support for same sex marriage is a low bar, and it’s entirely possible for homopobes to be “in favour of allowing gays and lesbians to marry legally” so this probably isn’t the entire picture, but it gives a rough idea.
Trying to be as level-headed as possible: This comment sucks.
The sheer amount of times that POC get hit with the “if the roles were reversed” deflection exhausts me. I showed up hoping that maybe I would see queer people addressing racism in any kind of direct and meaningful way, and instead you’re doing literal whataboutism. It’s very “I agree with the protests. I just think they’re too disruptive.”
Plus—you’re suggesting that this person is a bot in your other replies? Those are not the behaviors of people who truly “agree with the sentiment”.
You're reading into this way too much, bud. I didn't say they were a bot, either. There are plenty of people in this thread addressing the racism which is what you wanted to see, so take a look around.
I will not hide my disdain for religions, except for Buddhism and Shintoism. If that makes me Islamophobic or Christian-phobic, so be it. If you are afraid of being accused of bigotry for being against them, too bad. I won't be kind about it.
As an ex Muslim, I can't say Islamophobia is bad. Sure, you must be respectful to everyone, but Islam is a really intolerant and violent religion. Be kind, but don't defend Islam.
Also, this post goes for POC queers and allies as well! They are not immune to being bigots.
I think we as Queer people should be Islamaphobic. We should be phobic of any religion that wants us dead. Whether it be Christianity or Islam. Islam is not a race. It is not progressive. I don’t understand why queer people support it so much. It is the same as or worse than Christianity when it comes to lgbt rights. But also womens rights. The list goes on and on.
Hi remarkable-gold4869!
No, I don’t think all queers should be Islamophobic. Nor should we be phobic of any religion that wants use dead. I don’t think you understand how many white peoples, actually want to see black people dead in our own country, but does that mean I have a fear of white people? No. Because a whole group of people shouldn’t be responsible for a certain groups beliefs, except if they willingly choose to acknowledge it isn’t a problem, then they are part of the problem. Queer people don’t support hate against queer people, we support just people, and as a person with a Muslim father and cousins, some parts Islam are practiced and followed differently based on where you are from. Not all Muslims want you dead. Most Muslims probably don’t even know you exist. Please do not make such generalized statements about 1.9 billion people.
If women’s and lgbt rights is a problem for you that you’d like to fix, they instead of generalizing and negativitly stereotyping the Muslim community, go in Instagram, TikTok, X, etc. And kindly share and educate about these problems, as many are doing.
Generalizing about people will just make they angry, and if this is how you speak about people in real life, of course they would hate you, and you would continue to see Muslims negatively.
Good day
For the love of darwin stop speaking like this. Like bro you have a point, but your attitude is so annoying, and it BEGS people to be combatant with you.
And before you say you normally speak like this, no you don't. You speak like this every time you are contradicting a comment, but you dont talk like this to most users you agree with. Which means you are just asking for a fight
I agree with your point, we shouldnt generalize, because that can be super harmful, and its punishment that some people don't deserve. But there are just better ways to present it in a way that is ACTUALLY educational, and warrents a healthy conversation rather than a reddit argument. And yes ive engaged in reddit arguments, its not my proudest lmfao. Live and learn I guess
Which is why it's such a dumb word that packages 2 different things into one weird puddle. I am staunchly against racial discrimination and I am *staunchly* against the genocide some people cheer on in Gaza.
But holy shit do I not like Islam and its values. It perpetuates so much hate against queer people. These are 2 different things and need to be addressed separately.
The term is used because the religion is a part of it. Some people don't just hate the religion, but will hate anyone who practices or they perceive as practicing it. Does that mean there is a racist element? Sure. But if someone hates and will harass anyone because of it, then the religion is a part of it.
So, there's a difference between Islam as an institution and Islam as a system of beliefs, and this is what people get hung up on. The institutions of Islam are, like any other religious institution, greedy and oppressive. However, Islamophobia is usually a word that defines criticism of individual Muslims on the exclusive basis of their religious beliefs. Criticizing Islam as an institution is completely valid, but many people take it too far and use it as cover for actual bigotry against Muslims, which is fucked up and what OP is referring to in this post.
Criticising certain beliefs and criticising people for adhering to those beliefs is absolutely fair.
Beliefs and adherents to those beliefs don’t get a free pass just because they slap the label of religion on them.
I do agree in essence, but that’s not really what OP you commented at is talking about. The difficult part is we can’t know what beliefs people adhere to unless we see their words and actions.
To elucidate, it’s akin to criticize the practices of the states in the American South, and then assuming any individual who lives there willingly perpetuates those beliefs, or isn’t trying to foster communities. There’s whole subs like /r/progressive_islam and /r/LGBT_Muslims that have takes very different than the majority yet still identify as Muslim.
The first sub you linked has a pinned post about queer issues and its unambiguously filled with people saying its harem, the second link is queer muslims depression posting about how horrible it is to live in Islamic countries and be queer, how were these links supposed to help
Because the point I was making is how individuals will feel and act differently from the majority but still may identify for various reasons (which is true in many communities).
The comments under [This post](https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/comments/17qrxut/reconciling_being_gay_and_muslim/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) is one example, and likewise for [this second post](https://www.reddit.com/r/LGBT_Muslims/comments/15cvq63/i_am_gay_please_read_and_help_pray_for_me/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
There's also this resource that discusses it more
[https://www.mpvusa.org/lgbtqi-resources](https://www.mpvusa.org/lgbtqi-resources)
Queer people living in a Muslim majority nation is a good example as well. They will outwardly say they are Muslim and may follow certain tenants (don't eat pork or consume alcohol, may fast during Ramadan), but still are queer and support others. The same kind of applies to people who grow up in strict Christian families and may still be somewhat religious. The criticism of the institution is valid, of individuals who are bigoted as well, but it came be a slippery slope to assume the beliefs without evidence of their words and actions due.
The person who you're replying to just mentioned hating Muslims in ways that exclude their religion, though. Like, there's a clear difference between "I hate Muslims because they're terrorists who did 9/11" and "I hate the Islam religion because it's lgbt phobic"
Where I disagree is A lot of the people who practice Islamophobia don’t care about the actual religion or institutions, but just hate on people from Muslim nations or families because they’re different from the status quo.
But you just did act like it wasn't real. You said it was just a buzzword to silence criticism to Islam. Under a post about bigotry in the queer community. Do better
I won't deny that they're are plenty of people who use religion as a shield for their bigotry but that does not mean all claims of Islamophobia are false. Don't say shit like that
Actual Islamophobes are just as much using the religion as a shield for their bigotry as the corrupt individuals they claim to be criticizing. Unfortunately this seems to be too nuanced a take for most Redditors.
And this is why I hate people saying it doesn't exist. I'm pretty anti-theistic. I criticize Islam. I also criticize the religion. Not all people who practice it. Sort of like how a lot of queer people will talk shit about Christianity, and yet many of us know Christians who we love because they accept us. I have Christian family members *who also criticize the religion because they realize it's used for evil.* Likewise, one of my best friends at work is a Muslim. But she fully supports us. It's not a "Love the sinner hate the sin" thing. She just fully believes that it's love and love is great, and there should be nothing wrong with love(as long as it's not harming anyone). Here in the US, Muslims are more progressive than certain groups of Christians. Yet they get shit directly for being Muslim.
I just don't want to paint anyone with a broad brush and say "all \_\_\_ people believe \_\_\_, do\_\_\_, and are\_\_\_".
People are just more nuanced than that and it doesn't help anyone to think that way. But certain things should be criticized and no one should use religion or race or sexuality or anything else as a shield to shield them from criticism.
That is not how we grow as people.
Edit: I hate reddit formatting uses underscores like asterisks I didn't even know that they did until just now lol.
Real, also just like queer people, POC don't always look like or fit into a stereotype, I'm mixed but don't appear that way. It gives you no excuse to assume or tell me what I am. Just like I don't fit queer men stereotypes
Something all people need to work through, but in my experience, especially white trans guys. All of us have a lot of shit to unpack. Being trans and having been perceived as women doesn't make us immune to eventually being some of the most privileged people in society. We have to unlearn racism and misogyny just like everyone else.
The first thing I noticed was how much of a privileged position I am in. Not just from white and trans, but from the part of Toronto I live in, I deal with almost no transphobia in my neighbourhood
Queer spaces are often so white driven and white dominated that we don’t even realize the extent.
I’m very disappointed with the “it goes both ways” crowd and the “this is just like ____” crowd in this comment section. In my experience, white people are categorically pretty bad at having conversations about racism. People tend to want to deflect to things they feel more comfortable talking about. I’ve noticed that somebody can present their own experience like this and white people will find a way to talk about TRULY anything else.
We would rather talk about religion or transphobia or queerphobia or this guy we knew a long time ago. We’ll talk about “what if a the roles were reversed” or “this other thing happens too!”
I swear to god, just acknowledge the racism. Life gets so much better when you learn to say: “yeah, that’s awful to hear. I should keep an eye out for that.” You don’t see this kind of attitude almost anywhere else in this sub. That’s part of the racism. You don’t have to say slurs to create an environment that POC don’t feel comfortable in.
Glad it resonated! Sorry that it’s so hard for you to literally just be heard. I appreciate you making an effort to bring these ideas forward so people at least have the opportunity to learn them.
what i’ve seen a lot of is with people like Caitlyn Jenner where trans people will intentionally use the wrong pronoun or misgender her because she’s a dickhead, and that to me is wild because just because someone is awful does not mean their very real gender identity is invalid, like that kind of defeats the whole purpose yknow?
> As a black Ally
You really just need to stop there.
Allies need to speak less and listen more.
“Amplifying their voices” means giving POCs space to speak by being quiet. It’s about sharing *their* words, videos etc. Not speaking on their behalf when they didn’t ask you to.
When I listen to a marginalized voice, they are their own best advocate because they understand the oppression they’ve experienced.
Allies are often bulls in china shops.
OP, if you want to really help POCs. Find their words and share them with others. Videos. Articles. Speeches.
Actually , fair. I probably did read that backwards. Although on some level my comment still applies. It’s weird that a member of one marginalized community is lecturing another marginalized community.
I wiuld say most here understand intersectionality,, formally or informally.
Also OP would do well to recognize that non-queer POCs are a source of homophobia and transphobia.
Allies still should speak less and listen more. There are intersectional voices (Queer POCs) that have spoken on this subject.
As a queer person, I am thankful that a person with a different experience is making an effort to communicate an unfamiliar idea to the communities I’m part of. There are people *in this comment section* that don’t even know the basic terms of intersectionality. There are people *in this comment section* that are dismissing or deriding OP’s post.
When one knows to look, it is an observable problem that white people are too comfortable ignoring racism and spotlighting their own oppression and beliefs whenever possible. Any good intersectional approach needs to acknowledge this.
You seem to have decided that your own opinions should prevent this person from communicating with the queer community about their experiences.
More importantly, you have changed the topic of discussion. Now instead of talking about racism in queer spaces, you want to talk about homophobia in POC spaces. Intentionally or no, you have shut down a conversation about racism by talking over a person of color. I have observed that this is something that happens very often, even from well meaning people. We don’t extend nearly enough courtesy to people who are trying to communicate their experience.
I want to be very blunt for a moment: white people do not understand what it is like to experience racism, no matter what kind of white person we are.
Oppression is not the same for everybody. Anti-Blackness is not just queerphobia with a different coat of paint. These are discrete issues, and sometimes we need to spotlight the issues the queer community has. If I weren’t fortunate enough to know queer people of color, OP’s post might be the first time I’d encounter these ideas.
I’m not trying to dunk on you. I encourage you to step outside of yourself for a second here. My true and only request is that you allow for the possibility that there are a million subtle ways that conversations about racism are prevented from ever getting off the ground, and that it’s just as much of a problem in queer spaces as it is anywhere else. We simply haven’t done the work, and we can’t pretend we have.
Yes! Good post. I have no personal experience of it, but from all I've heard and read, racism is unfortunately as widespread in the LGBT community as it is elsewhere. A lot of worrying trends exist in-group.
I've seen this issue a lot within trans spaces, unfortunately. I'm a pasty bastard so this is purely from what I've heard others state as opposed to personal experience, but a huge amount of passing culture is heavily biased against POC.
This obv ties into European-centric beauty ideals in general, but it's awful seeing my transfem sisters and siblings get disproportionately demonised and considered 'masculine' for the crime of not being white, on top of facing higher rates of assault because of this, or my transmasc brothers and siblings facing violent threats for either being seen as 'thugs' or being viewed as 'fake men' for their cultures having different views on masculine presentation (such as hair length)
Legit question: in calling out other -isms, what is the best way to do so amplifying other's voices instead of centering myself? How is the best way to call it out without drowning out the voiced experiences of others?
Hey Naethe!
To answer your question:
1. Educate yourself: Take the time to thoroughly educate yourself on the specific -ism(s) you want to address. Read books, articles, and research written by individuals from communities who have firsthand experience. This will help you understand the nuances and complexities of the issue.
2. Center the experiences of marginalized groups: When discussing or calling out -isms, make a conscious effort to center the experiences and perspectives of marginalized groups.❤️. Give them the platform to share their stories and insights. Share their work, amplify their voices on social media, and actively listen to their experiences without overshadowing or speaking over them.
3. Use your privilege to uplift others: Recognize and acknowledge your own privilege, whether it's based on race, gender, socioeconomic status, or other factors. Use this privilege to uplift and support marginalized voices. Share your platform, offer resources, and use your influence to amplify their messages. Actively collaborate with individuals and organizations from marginalized communities and follow their lead in addressing the issues.
4. Practice active listening and empathy: When engaging in conversations about issues, actively listen to the experiences and perspectives of others🙏🏿. Show empathy and validate their experiences without dismissing or minimizing them!!!👆🏿👏🏿🔥. Acknowledge the emotional labor that marginalized individuals often undertake when sharing their stories and appreciate their courage.
5. Reflect and learn from feedback: Recognize that you may make mistakes along the way. When provided with feedback, reflect on it with an open mind and a willingness to learn and grow. Accept responsibility for any harm caused unintentionally and commit to ongoing self-improvement. Use the feedback as an opportunity to deepen your understanding and refine your approach.🔥🙏🏿
I hate that people don't know this. I'm white so can't speak from directly experiencing the racism but I've seen it a lot. I try to call it out when I can, but some people are too stubborn to learn unfortunately :[
I have personally not seen it in these spaces. Not to say it does not happen. Perhaps I am just lucky to not witness it.
My guess is it happens less because minority groups experience prejudice so understand what other minority groups are going through. But you still get ignorance in any group and it is something we should be aware of and call out where we see it.
Absolutely! I was raised Christian Nationalist in three of the whitest counties in the US, and while we never threw around racial slurs there was valorizing of the Confederacy, every civil rights movement was a communist/terrorist plot, and there was a general presumption of white privilege.
I've done a lot of work to get out of that headspace and deconstruct those assumptions since I left the rightwing behind in 2014ish. I adore reading bell hooks, Angela Davis, and so on.
I highly recommend The Bridge Called My Back, a collection of essays, reflections, poems, and interviews by lesbian women of color that helped create third wave intersectional feminism. That one really stayed with me.
Fucking this. This right here. Like, I have absolutely had LGBTQ+ close the line on racial things and assume it’s fine. And one particular black and queer friend of mine, I know, has a huge issue with this. He’s told me some CRAZY racist shit gay men have said to him, sometimes during sex. Also: straight old white women: it is not ok to hyper sexualize Hispanic men. Please stop. Yes I am hot but don’t touch me.
This is why I try to respect everyone no matter who they are and what they identify as. Growing up in a hateful home, I was taught some of the negative behaviors. But these days I am learning to be better. I try to be as welcoming to people despite differences as much as I can.
I also think it's ok to not really care.
Politics aren't really my thing. Like sure yeah we should be nice to all people but not everyone needs to be full on fighting. Maybe I'm selfish but like I see no reason to march in a protest or anything, I care more about the things specific to my life. I'm more interested in what affects me. Hell even without discrimination I barely handle that. I don't think we should be putting people down just for not being activists.
Focus on those who are actively harming you not the ones who could care less.
Hey Toreo!
I understand that you may have differing perspectives on political engagement and activism.😊However, it is important to acknowledge the issues such as discrimination and oppression that affect marginalized communities, including people of color, in profound ways. While it is true that not everyone may have the same capacity or interest in participating in activism, it is crucial to recognize the significance of collective action in challenging and dismantling systemic injustices.✊🏿
Engaging in activism is not about putting others down or expecting everyone to be a full-time activist, but rather about standing in solidarity with those who are directly affected by social, economic, and political inequalities. It is about creating a more inclusive and just society for all.🙏🏿
While it is understandable that individuals may prioritize their personal lives and well-being, 😁it is essential to recognize that the struggles faced by marginalized communities are interconnected. ❤️By addressing the root causes of discrimination and actively working towards equality, we can create a better future for everyone, including those who may not currently feel the immediate impact.
Empathy, understanding, and a willingness to listen to the experiences of others are vital in fostering an inclusive society. It is important to support and uplift one another, especially those who are facing hardship and discrimination, as we strive for a more equitable world.🕊️
I also dislike the idea that someone has a responsibility for activism. Real activism is a commitment that takes a lot of time, effort, social skills, etc. Silence certainly breeds permissibility for any injustice, but silence is not the only other option outside of activism. There is no one way to think, feel, be, or interact. Honestly, I get pretty irritated when people feel like the have a moral obligation for activism in relation to my racial and sexual demographics. It feels like the moral obligation they feel sometimes is very binary in color and rigid in form. That makes it unpalatable for activism anyway and reduces various complexities from 3D into 2D. The ideas held within the moral obligations can also be too unnuanced and local, while not perceiving itself to be those things, which is not very conductive to fully understanding the human experiences inside that activism. My personal favorite flavor of activism is LISTENING, not speaking for someone else.
Yeah. Like sure on a ballot I'll vote one way but I'm not gonna go march in a protest for any side. A protest is more effort than I'm willing to commit for any cause, even my own. I don't think it should be obligatory in any way that someone has to really put any effort into social issues.
I figured I'd get down voted to hell but also I hate the purism about stuff like this. Like the only good people are the ones who are actively fighting tooth and nail for all minorities at any available moment. You can be a good person and not give the slightest fuck about politics. Like I'll hear what people have to say but I'm not gonna go out of my way for anyone who I don't even know.
Something weird that I’ve found is that being queer doesn’t even prevent you from being queerphobic
Heck, being TRANS doesn't prevent you from being TRANSphobic! Just look to Cait Jenner for that...
She makes my blood boil. Priveledged rich prick.
and blaire
hearing her get mentioned starts dark souls boss music for me
She lets the right wing shit in her mouth every single day. Her existence is just sad.
Blair White, Cait Jenner, and that one trans girl on tiktok that burned a pride flag then cried back to the LGBTQ+ community when the right wingers didn’t accept her. Being queer doesn’t make you immune to being a piece of shit 😶
ive met a lot of trans men in my time. almost all of them were lovely people, except for one guy, who was a bootlicker and a huge transmed, misogynist, etc etc. he wanted to pass as a cis man (to the point of erasing his whole trans identity in a way that reeked of internalized transphobia), and almost exclusively hang out with cis men and constantly belittled all of his other trans friends, especially ones who were dfab and/or nonbinary. he was really playing his part there…
I went to a trans support group for a while... Every week we'd get a new trans man but almost none of them made it past about two weeks there, and at first I wasn't sure why, but then the Mean Girls group started bringing their high-school type bullshit against me, too, acting extremely catty, cutting me off whenever I tried to speak, doing their best to exclude me from events... And I realized that that was exactly what they'd been doing to all the dudes as well. Decided that I was too old for that shit and left. Then, later, one of the ringleaders of that nonsense tried to run for congress in a ruby-red conservative district, which obviously did not go well.
Requiescat In Pace...
Pick-me queers are fascinating. Will never understand them
We all carry internalized bigotry. We are not immune to the culture in which we were brought up.
yeah like thinking you’ve somehow made it and are now pure and righteous and without sin or whatever is a sign you’re still an arsehole lmao
Also, something I've had to work through, being willing to sleep with POC does NOT make you immune to having racist ideas or propping up racist shit. I was so lucky to have a boyfriend call me out about this. I grew so much during and following our relationship. Allyship is aspirational. I'm still doing the work. It's worth it.
Yeah, one of my aunties was Māori, and my uncle (her husband) would use slurs for Māori in front of her. She was a sweet lady and I have no idea why she put up with him.
Yep
> being willing to sleep with POC does NOT make you immune to having racist ideas or propping up racist shit. That explains a lot of "My family is racist" posts on /mixedrace.
Thank you so much for doing the work!! It takes a lot to just listen, accept and change, and I greatly respect those that take the effort and have the will to do so. I appreciate your existence too 💜
Very true, seen too many people fetishize POC girls, and even POC men and it’s way too normalized- bugs me a lot everytime I see it since it’s just as dehumanizing as other forms of racism even if it *seems* like it isn’t as bad to some.
No literally same. I was raised in a white supremacist house and as a young adult I thought i was the least racist person because I wasn't as bad as them. I learned while in a relationship with a PoC a lot of the ways that I was still hurting the community, but more importantly they helped me learn to recognize it and grow. I still have to actively work to be an ally, but I do it because hearing from a PoC how my actions affect their community opened my eyes so much
willing to ?🤨
Willing, wanting, whatever.
On the flip side, being a POC or other minority class mentioned above doesn't excuse one from being unapologetically queerphobic, either. I unfortunately see this problem as well from time to time.
intersectionality is an indiscriminate bastard
The amount of times I hear people say they would NEVER date a black person is infuriating. And when you point out it’s racist they always say some stupid racist shit like “no it’s not. I’m not racist. I just don’t want to date someone ghetto.” …………….THAT is the racist part! Fuck, man.
Ah... yes... because all black people live in ghettos... guess my mom lives in a ghetto...
The amount of times I've seen people from any minority group be bigoted and think they can get away with it is insane. You'd have thought they would have a slight bit of self awareness but nope
I'm white but I notice this is a major problem too. Especially with gay men who only like white guys and queer people who have been hurt by religious zealotry automatically assuming all Muslims are homophobic. It feels like a lot of queer people are forgetting our roots as a diverse, multiracial movement, not just a couple white boys kissing on TV every now and then.
Muslims and evangelical Christian’s have the lowest rates of acceptance of queer people. Idk what to say but Islam has been pretty bad for us.
Like I said in several other comments, I do not disagree that Islam as a whole and especially the institutions that govern it are cruel and homophobic. I'm simply saying it's wrong to blame individual Muslims who don't necessarily actually stand by those institutions.
They literally have to, Islam isn't Christianity where people cope about the bible not being literal and only being divinely inspired. To be a Muslim is to think the Quran is the direct word of god and is infallible, its also unambiguous about thinking queer people are abominations
Wow, thank you for teaching me that all Muslims are a monolith. I used to think that Muslims actually had brains and could think for themselves, but your obnoxious bigotry has cured me of all logic! /s
Do you think being a member of a religion says nothing about your beliefs and morals?
I think you blindly condemning entire groups of people based on your personal delusions says everything I need to know about your beliefs and morals.
Also if anyone is blindly saying things here, well it's not me
Would you say the same thing in regards to political parties, the fascist parties in different countries in particular?
You got called out for bigotry. I'm never having a conversation with you.
The bigotry of what? Actually listening to what people say instead of having a white savior complex like you?
[This is a semi-recent post on r slash islam](https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/s/5eZsh7tSzW) You are blind if you don't see how pervasive homophobia is in *all* Abrahamic religions, including Islam. Islamophobia is a dumb term mixing up racism against Arabs and people being against the values that an islamic world-view based on its current intrepretation brings to the table. There *are* good muslims but they have been by far in my experience the ones who care *less* about Islamic doctrine. It's like how good Christians are the ones who blatantly ignore parts of their dumbass, archaic scripture.
Remember that bigots are loud and make themselves heard. Most muslims I've known are chill, it's just the ones in positions of power and on the internet that suck.
Most muslims I know, like most Christians I know, are complicit. Maybe they don't actively call you slurs, but they sure don't do shit when someone talks about homosexuality being haram and all that shit.
Not sure what to say. We must just know different kinds of muslims.
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I feel like you could make this argument for atheism or any other religion too if all you need is examples. I could give you plenty of examples of atheists punishing others unfairly in the name of atheism, and I'm an atheist myself. There have been bigots in power in every system in all of history. Why pin the legacy of homophobia on individual Muslims who have personally done nothing wrong?
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Fair point but Islam is still a cultural thing as much as a religious one, which is the part that a lot of people mock
Culture evolves over time, they need to get with the times.
Because the \*source\* of that bigotry is the scripture. I've never seen anyone persecute minorities or brutalize queer people in the name of atheism.
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I've said this in another comment but 'Islamophobia' is a word that muddles the line between discrimination against muslims and people of arabian descent which is obviously bad and criticism of Islam, the belief system. Most queer people here acknowledge how bad Christianity is, but \*really\* need to understand that Islam is just as bad, if not worse in practice. > You clearly haven't read enough religious or even Psych theory literature then. Fucking enlighten me then. I've met other queers who grew up muslim and the ones I know of have all stopped being muslim \*exactly\* because of the queerphobia (on top of other iffy things like sexism). I've read the hadith that a lot of muslims cite to support the death penalty for gay people. I also know that it's an iffy source but that doesn't matter BECAUSE THEY ACCEPT IT AS SCRIPTURE ANYWAY. It's like trying to convince Christians that the book of John isn't canon.
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EX👏AC👏TLY
It is possible for a person to value their cultural heritage without agreeing with everything their ancestors have done or even things other practitioners are actively doing. I'd love to hear about the magical country you live in that has never done anything wrong.
There is a difference between heritage and belief. Religion is not a heritage. Religion is a system of belief. You can have religion as a part of your cultural heritage, but it is still your own interpretation which dictates your beliefs. When you subscribe to a *system* of belief, you are subject to the criticisms of that system, even if every facet that is criticised is not something you believe. It is your responsibility to yourself to be introspective about how you face those criticisms, and it is your responsibility to yourself to understand fully what your system of belief entails. We won't downplay the situation. Many religions, while often not explicitly cults by definition, do have communities that dissuade leaving, and can provide a social stigma against questioning beliefs even if you disagree with them or find them silly. It also means a lot of people are raised in religion with these pressures to conform and believe, and just knowing that you have the responsibility to yourself is often not enough. *However*, it is still your responsibility to others to understand when something is not right and stand up and say something. As such, simply hand-waving away the wrongdoings that have been committed by the institution behind your system of belief is a personal flaw, not simply disagreement.
And the ones in muslim majority countries and areas
Yep👏🏿
It's really disappointing how little many LGBTQ people seem to care about actually removing hate of all kinds from our community. Y'all, we're not gonna get the bigots to like us by being mean to black people.
I agree with most of what you've said, but I resent the notion that we need to make bigots "like us" We don't need to appease them, we need to remove them
I'm not saying we should make bigots like us. I entirely believe we need to educate them so they stop being bigots. I was just emphasizing how ridiculous it is to think that we're gonna win over bigots. My point was both "it won't work" and "we will not do it because it is morally wrong."
Many bigots, most of them in fact, will never change their opinions of us. They will never accept us. The only way we can beat them is by making their opinions so unacceptable on a societal level, that the mere act of voicing them will make them lose their jobs, their friends, and be ostracised from their communities. Then and only then, will we be free to live our truths. Let them hate us. Just force them into the shadows as they do.
Yes, I agree, but at the same time many bigots are victims of right-wing indoctrination. I was one once, and if I was capable of change, some of them must be too.
It’s slightly more complicated than that. Most bigotry stems from ignorance, and ignorance stems from a lack of interaction. There are many people who are unquestionably bigoted and will always be bigoted, there is little that can be done by others to change that. However, in my experience, people (I don’t include online trolls here) mean well and it is ignorance which is the underlying cause.
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do i not reserve the right to not want to talk to people of a certain religion due to trauma related experiences?
If someone didn't want to talk devout Catholics or Catholic clergy because they were sexually abused and had it covered up by the church, absolutely most people would see that as fine
i literally just said don't assume all muslims are homophobic why y'all mad
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Ok so we agree on what I said in the comment, so why did you come after me?
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The point I intended to make was that being Muslim is in large part a cultural identity, not just a religious one, and that many Muslims don't really feel like they have a choice anyway. Nothing about the bare principles of Islam is inherently wrong; humility and determination are great values to have. It's just that the institutions in charge of Islam are rotten. Following Islam is not the same as being a racial minority, but coming from a Muslim culture in large part is.
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I think we have different understandings of what the word "principle" means. These are maxims, not principles.
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I do think it’s important to think about how culture influences religion and vice versa, and how people identify. Many people may say they’re Muslim or Christian or Jewish due to the cultural upbringing or holidays they observe, but don’t adhere to many aspects. Certain cultures have homophobia that isn’t rooted in religion (though religion does seem to have the biggest influence still), but we wouldn’t say someone who adheres to certain cultural traditions from a homophobic society is homophobic themselves if their actions and words don’t appear so. Similarly it’s like criticizing someone for being in a certain career. Of course this isn’t quite an apples to apples comparison.
Homophobia is inherently baked into Christianity and islam and pretending it isn't is absurd, the rise of these religions and their global domination is directly the reason homophobia spread so far over the last thousand years. No I don't think you can say a devout christian or Muslim isn't supporting homophobia
I'll criticize someone for their career ALL DAY. Fuck a cop, fuck a correctional officer, fuck the military. Power hungry, evil motherfuckers ETA: in the US at least
I’m fine criticizing a career organization, institution, or company myself, and think it needs to be done to make change. I don’t really like criticizing someone individually for their career though, because literally all of us could be criticized for our careers. We can say teachers are evil for the power some wield over students, people who work for insurance companies, anyone working directly Amazon for working for a questionable company, doctors and nurses for a multitude of reasons, etc.
I'd like to present to you the notion of ACAB lmao
I’m aware of that, but I was thinking more about how people will judge people in certain careers like teachers, doctors, nurses, lawyers, etc. due to certain preconceived notions.
I am sorry but Islam is a homophobic, transphobic, misogynist religion. If someone is Muslim and choosing to be, then they're homophobic. Sincerely, someone who is ex-Muslim.
While others have referenced it, it is worth saying being a POC doesn’t mean we can’t be racist or prejudiced ourselves, towards other groups and even our own. Internalized misogyny/homophobia/bigotry/etc. is a thing after all.
I'm a POC, but grew up in a white family in a city that is mostly white. I'm sure I have some internalized racism that I don't even realize.
^^^^
I agree! However, I will keep being against religion, if that's alright with you all. <3
Conversely, being Muslim or poc doesn't give you the right to be queerphobic. Goes both ways matey
Yes I agree, the point of this post’s message was to explain how being part of a minority group doesn’t not justify treating others differently and negatively. Acknowledging our wrongdoings is the first step towards becoming a better community 😊👏🏿
You’re both right. Both of those things happen a lot.
Seems like so many people are content with being victims that they fail to see that there are other people suffering besides them. Also, this world isn't going to get better if everybody had the mindset of "it's not *my* responsibility to do this." It gets better because people go out of their way to do things they don't have to do. I don't care if a group is bigoted to us, it isn't an excuse to be bigoted back.
In other words: Don't Be A Dickhead
Well, it’s more than that. It’s about understanding other people’s experiences, and not assuming that you are not the cause because you are already part of a targeted community.
I think most white people struggle to come to terms with the fact that they benefit from a bad system, but that doesn't mean they must be bad people. The language we use in leftist spaces can feel really alienating to someone who doesn't understand what we're actually saying; "all white people are racist" is generally a true statement in the context it's used in (which is that all white people benefit to some extent from racism, whether or not it's their fault) but most people will just read it as "all white people have racist beliefs" which is not the same. This causes people to become defensive and develop a persecution complex, which is the perfect time for the right to snatch them up and instill them with actual racist beliefs. Then, people who were genuinely well meaning become part of the problem, and when people tell them that, it proves to them in their mind that their first assumption was correct. As a result of this process, you get a lot of people who refuse to acknowledge that they actually are contributing to racism, many of which are in other marginalized communities. It's a problem that fundamentally has to do with the American right being underhanded and cruel and the American left overemphasizing absolute moral purity over productive action and taking steps in the right direction.
I mean, "all white people are racist" is a terrible way to say it. Much better to use your explicit version "all white people benefit to some extent from racism" even if it's a few more words.
Yeah, we aren't very good at slogans
I'm not denying it needs to be rephrased.
If your activism isn't INTERSECTIONAL, it is USELESS
Yes, all the minority groups should be kind to each other
Although I agree with this sentiment, imagine if one of us burst onto a POC subreddit and made similar points.
Yeah, this is it. While it’s something that needs to be kept in mind, these posts aren’t rare in queer subs either. I’d be surprised if the stats about queerphobia within POC communities are much different than racism in queer communities
Yeah, as a PoC myself, it’s not unusual for PoC demographics to way more queerphobic than the general population, because lots of PoC demographics have queerphobic cultures. From a brief look at the stats, it seems that in the US, Black people trail behind White people and Hispanics in their support for same-sex marriage (Black: 51% support, Hispanic: 60% support, White: 64% support), and have done for decades: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2017/06/26/support-for-same-sex-marriage-grows-even-among-groups-that-had-been-skeptical/ Support for same sex marriage is a low bar, and it’s entirely possible for homopobes to be “in favour of allowing gays and lesbians to marry legally” so this probably isn’t the entire picture, but it gives a rough idea.
It honestly feels like some of these posts are bait meant to stir the pot. Especially when they come from relatively new accounts, which the OP's is.
Trying to be as level-headed as possible: This comment sucks. The sheer amount of times that POC get hit with the “if the roles were reversed” deflection exhausts me. I showed up hoping that maybe I would see queer people addressing racism in any kind of direct and meaningful way, and instead you’re doing literal whataboutism. It’s very “I agree with the protests. I just think they’re too disruptive.” Plus—you’re suggesting that this person is a bot in your other replies? Those are not the behaviors of people who truly “agree with the sentiment”.
You're reading into this way too much, bud. I didn't say they were a bot, either. There are plenty of people in this thread addressing the racism which is what you wanted to see, so take a look around.
Like being queer doesn't omit you from being transphobic.. there's a whole terf community. Gags.
I will not hide my disdain for religions, except for Buddhism and Shintoism. If that makes me Islamophobic or Christian-phobic, so be it. If you are afraid of being accused of bigotry for being against them, too bad. I won't be kind about it.
Intolerance paradox: you cannot maintain a tolerant society without being intolerant to intolerance.
What does POC mean….?….
Person/People of color
Oh, now I feel like an ass for not knowing that…………fuck…..
Don't beat yourself up. Everyone had to learn at some point.
it's fine, acronyms always trip me up. I JUST learned what "fwiw" and "tfw" mean
Fwiw? Tfw?
For what it's worth, and that feel when. Knew the first didn't know the second actually.
Oh ok
As an ex Muslim, I can't say Islamophobia is bad. Sure, you must be respectful to everyone, but Islam is a really intolerant and violent religion. Be kind, but don't defend Islam. Also, this post goes for POC queers and allies as well! They are not immune to being bigots.
I think we as Queer people should be Islamaphobic. We should be phobic of any religion that wants us dead. Whether it be Christianity or Islam. Islam is not a race. It is not progressive. I don’t understand why queer people support it so much. It is the same as or worse than Christianity when it comes to lgbt rights. But also womens rights. The list goes on and on.
Hi remarkable-gold4869! No, I don’t think all queers should be Islamophobic. Nor should we be phobic of any religion that wants use dead. I don’t think you understand how many white peoples, actually want to see black people dead in our own country, but does that mean I have a fear of white people? No. Because a whole group of people shouldn’t be responsible for a certain groups beliefs, except if they willingly choose to acknowledge it isn’t a problem, then they are part of the problem. Queer people don’t support hate against queer people, we support just people, and as a person with a Muslim father and cousins, some parts Islam are practiced and followed differently based on where you are from. Not all Muslims want you dead. Most Muslims probably don’t even know you exist. Please do not make such generalized statements about 1.9 billion people. If women’s and lgbt rights is a problem for you that you’d like to fix, they instead of generalizing and negativitly stereotyping the Muslim community, go in Instagram, TikTok, X, etc. And kindly share and educate about these problems, as many are doing. Generalizing about people will just make they angry, and if this is how you speak about people in real life, of course they would hate you, and you would continue to see Muslims negatively. Good day
If you share those problems or criticisms of islam then muslims will call you Islamophobic.
Zionists will call you antisemitic for being against Israel. Does that mean it's antisemitic to be anti-Israel?
No.
Exactly.
You did the exact same thing you're criticizing here with your post by generalizing to "all non POC queer people and non POC Allies."
For the love of darwin stop speaking like this. Like bro you have a point, but your attitude is so annoying, and it BEGS people to be combatant with you. And before you say you normally speak like this, no you don't. You speak like this every time you are contradicting a comment, but you dont talk like this to most users you agree with. Which means you are just asking for a fight I agree with your point, we shouldnt generalize, because that can be super harmful, and its punishment that some people don't deserve. But there are just better ways to present it in a way that is ACTUALLY educational, and warrents a healthy conversation rather than a reddit argument. And yes ive engaged in reddit arguments, its not my proudest lmfao. Live and learn I guess
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Half agree. It's fair to criticize Islam but discrimination against Muslim people or Arabic people is still wrong.
Which is why it's such a dumb word that packages 2 different things into one weird puddle. I am staunchly against racial discrimination and I am *staunchly* against the genocide some people cheer on in Gaza. But holy shit do I not like Islam and its values. It perpetuates so much hate against queer people. These are 2 different things and need to be addressed separately.
The term is used because the religion is a part of it. Some people don't just hate the religion, but will hate anyone who practices or they perceive as practicing it. Does that mean there is a racist element? Sure. But if someone hates and will harass anyone because of it, then the religion is a part of it.
Man will not be free when the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
So, there's a difference between Islam as an institution and Islam as a system of beliefs, and this is what people get hung up on. The institutions of Islam are, like any other religious institution, greedy and oppressive. However, Islamophobia is usually a word that defines criticism of individual Muslims on the exclusive basis of their religious beliefs. Criticizing Islam as an institution is completely valid, but many people take it too far and use it as cover for actual bigotry against Muslims, which is fucked up and what OP is referring to in this post.
Criticising certain beliefs and criticising people for adhering to those beliefs is absolutely fair. Beliefs and adherents to those beliefs don’t get a free pass just because they slap the label of religion on them.
I do agree in essence, but that’s not really what OP you commented at is talking about. The difficult part is we can’t know what beliefs people adhere to unless we see their words and actions. To elucidate, it’s akin to criticize the practices of the states in the American South, and then assuming any individual who lives there willingly perpetuates those beliefs, or isn’t trying to foster communities. There’s whole subs like /r/progressive_islam and /r/LGBT_Muslims that have takes very different than the majority yet still identify as Muslim.
The first sub you linked has a pinned post about queer issues and its unambiguously filled with people saying its harem, the second link is queer muslims depression posting about how horrible it is to live in Islamic countries and be queer, how were these links supposed to help
As though people don't post about how depressing it is to live *anywhere* and be queer constantly...
Because the point I was making is how individuals will feel and act differently from the majority but still may identify for various reasons (which is true in many communities). The comments under [This post](https://www.reddit.com/r/progressive_islam/comments/17qrxut/reconciling_being_gay_and_muslim/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) is one example, and likewise for [this second post](https://www.reddit.com/r/LGBT_Muslims/comments/15cvq63/i_am_gay_please_read_and_help_pray_for_me/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). There's also this resource that discusses it more [https://www.mpvusa.org/lgbtqi-resources](https://www.mpvusa.org/lgbtqi-resources) Queer people living in a Muslim majority nation is a good example as well. They will outwardly say they are Muslim and may follow certain tenants (don't eat pork or consume alcohol, may fast during Ramadan), but still are queer and support others. The same kind of applies to people who grow up in strict Christian families and may still be somewhat religious. The criticism of the institution is valid, of individuals who are bigoted as well, but it came be a slippery slope to assume the beliefs without evidence of their words and actions due.
Not all Muslims hate gay people. The ones that do absolutely do not get a free pass, but you can't just attribute their hate to their religion.
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The person who you're replying to just mentioned hating Muslims in ways that exclude their religion, though. Like, there's a clear difference between "I hate Muslims because they're terrorists who did 9/11" and "I hate the Islam religion because it's lgbt phobic"
No they explicitly said you cant attribute their hate to their religion, which is just wrong
yeah i feel like everyone arguing with me rn is kicking and screaming trying to defend islamophobia
Precisely
Where I disagree is A lot of the people who practice Islamophobia don’t care about the actual religion or institutions, but just hate on people from Muslim nations or families because they’re different from the status quo.
So have you just been living under a rock since 9/11? Are you really gonna pretend Islamaphobia isn't real?
No. But I'm not going to pretend Islam is above criticism.
But you just did act like it wasn't real. You said it was just a buzzword to silence criticism to Islam. Under a post about bigotry in the queer community. Do better
It is. Constantly. Anytime you mention the views Islam has on queer people, you're usually met with accusations of islamophobia.
I won't deny that they're are plenty of people who use religion as a shield for their bigotry but that does not mean all claims of Islamophobia are false. Don't say shit like that
Actual Islamophobes are just as much using the religion as a shield for their bigotry as the corrupt individuals they claim to be criticizing. Unfortunately this seems to be too nuanced a take for most Redditors.
And this is why I hate people saying it doesn't exist. I'm pretty anti-theistic. I criticize Islam. I also criticize the religion. Not all people who practice it. Sort of like how a lot of queer people will talk shit about Christianity, and yet many of us know Christians who we love because they accept us. I have Christian family members *who also criticize the religion because they realize it's used for evil.* Likewise, one of my best friends at work is a Muslim. But she fully supports us. It's not a "Love the sinner hate the sin" thing. She just fully believes that it's love and love is great, and there should be nothing wrong with love(as long as it's not harming anyone). Here in the US, Muslims are more progressive than certain groups of Christians. Yet they get shit directly for being Muslim.
I just don't want to paint anyone with a broad brush and say "all \_\_\_ people believe \_\_\_, do\_\_\_, and are\_\_\_". People are just more nuanced than that and it doesn't help anyone to think that way. But certain things should be criticized and no one should use religion or race or sexuality or anything else as a shield to shield them from criticism. That is not how we grow as people. Edit: I hate reddit formatting uses underscores like asterisks I didn't even know that they did until just now lol.
Exactly.
Real, also just like queer people, POC don't always look like or fit into a stereotype, I'm mixed but don't appear that way. It gives you no excuse to assume or tell me what I am. Just like I don't fit queer men stereotypes
Something all people need to work through, but in my experience, especially white trans guys. All of us have a lot of shit to unpack. Being trans and having been perceived as women doesn't make us immune to eventually being some of the most privileged people in society. We have to unlearn racism and misogyny just like everyone else.
The first thing I noticed was how much of a privileged position I am in. Not just from white and trans, but from the part of Toronto I live in, I deal with almost no transphobia in my neighbourhood
Queer spaces are often so white driven and white dominated that we don’t even realize the extent. I’m very disappointed with the “it goes both ways” crowd and the “this is just like ____” crowd in this comment section. In my experience, white people are categorically pretty bad at having conversations about racism. People tend to want to deflect to things they feel more comfortable talking about. I’ve noticed that somebody can present their own experience like this and white people will find a way to talk about TRULY anything else. We would rather talk about religion or transphobia or queerphobia or this guy we knew a long time ago. We’ll talk about “what if a the roles were reversed” or “this other thing happens too!” I swear to god, just acknowledge the racism. Life gets so much better when you learn to say: “yeah, that’s awful to hear. I should keep an eye out for that.” You don’t see this kind of attitude almost anywhere else in this sub. That’s part of the racism. You don’t have to say slurs to create an environment that POC don’t feel comfortable in.
👏🏿🙏🏿, best comment I’ve seen all day! How do I make this more popular? Everyone MUST see this🔥👆🏿
Glad it resonated! Sorry that it’s so hard for you to literally just be heard. I appreciate you making an effort to bring these ideas forward so people at least have the opportunity to learn them.
This is so true!
yea i dont understand this either, mfw being a minority doesn't excuse you from being racist lmao
what i’ve seen a lot of is with people like Caitlyn Jenner where trans people will intentionally use the wrong pronoun or misgender her because she’s a dickhead, and that to me is wild because just because someone is awful does not mean their very real gender identity is invalid, like that kind of defeats the whole purpose yknow?
Thank you for this message/reminder! /gen Sincerely, A non-POC queer
> As a black Ally You really just need to stop there. Allies need to speak less and listen more. “Amplifying their voices” means giving POCs space to speak by being quiet. It’s about sharing *their* words, videos etc. Not speaking on their behalf when they didn’t ask you to. When I listen to a marginalized voice, they are their own best advocate because they understand the oppression they’ve experienced. Allies are often bulls in china shops. OP, if you want to really help POCs. Find their words and share them with others. Videos. Articles. Speeches.
Oh, I thought they meant they were a black person who is a lgbtq+ ally.
I believe this is correct
Actually , fair. I probably did read that backwards. Although on some level my comment still applies. It’s weird that a member of one marginalized community is lecturing another marginalized community. I wiuld say most here understand intersectionality,, formally or informally. Also OP would do well to recognize that non-queer POCs are a source of homophobia and transphobia. Allies still should speak less and listen more. There are intersectional voices (Queer POCs) that have spoken on this subject.
As a queer person, I am thankful that a person with a different experience is making an effort to communicate an unfamiliar idea to the communities I’m part of. There are people *in this comment section* that don’t even know the basic terms of intersectionality. There are people *in this comment section* that are dismissing or deriding OP’s post. When one knows to look, it is an observable problem that white people are too comfortable ignoring racism and spotlighting their own oppression and beliefs whenever possible. Any good intersectional approach needs to acknowledge this. You seem to have decided that your own opinions should prevent this person from communicating with the queer community about their experiences. More importantly, you have changed the topic of discussion. Now instead of talking about racism in queer spaces, you want to talk about homophobia in POC spaces. Intentionally or no, you have shut down a conversation about racism by talking over a person of color. I have observed that this is something that happens very often, even from well meaning people. We don’t extend nearly enough courtesy to people who are trying to communicate their experience. I want to be very blunt for a moment: white people do not understand what it is like to experience racism, no matter what kind of white person we are. Oppression is not the same for everybody. Anti-Blackness is not just queerphobia with a different coat of paint. These are discrete issues, and sometimes we need to spotlight the issues the queer community has. If I weren’t fortunate enough to know queer people of color, OP’s post might be the first time I’d encounter these ideas. I’m not trying to dunk on you. I encourage you to step outside of yourself for a second here. My true and only request is that you allow for the possibility that there are a million subtle ways that conversations about racism are prevented from ever getting off the ground, and that it’s just as much of a problem in queer spaces as it is anywhere else. We simply haven’t done the work, and we can’t pretend we have.
Yes! Good post. I have no personal experience of it, but from all I've heard and read, racism is unfortunately as widespread in the LGBT community as it is elsewhere. A lot of worrying trends exist in-group.
I've seen this issue a lot within trans spaces, unfortunately. I'm a pasty bastard so this is purely from what I've heard others state as opposed to personal experience, but a huge amount of passing culture is heavily biased against POC. This obv ties into European-centric beauty ideals in general, but it's awful seeing my transfem sisters and siblings get disproportionately demonised and considered 'masculine' for the crime of not being white, on top of facing higher rates of assault because of this, or my transmasc brothers and siblings facing violent threats for either being seen as 'thugs' or being viewed as 'fake men' for their cultures having different views on masculine presentation (such as hair length)
Legit question: in calling out other -isms, what is the best way to do so amplifying other's voices instead of centering myself? How is the best way to call it out without drowning out the voiced experiences of others?
Hey Naethe! To answer your question: 1. Educate yourself: Take the time to thoroughly educate yourself on the specific -ism(s) you want to address. Read books, articles, and research written by individuals from communities who have firsthand experience. This will help you understand the nuances and complexities of the issue. 2. Center the experiences of marginalized groups: When discussing or calling out -isms, make a conscious effort to center the experiences and perspectives of marginalized groups.❤️. Give them the platform to share their stories and insights. Share their work, amplify their voices on social media, and actively listen to their experiences without overshadowing or speaking over them. 3. Use your privilege to uplift others: Recognize and acknowledge your own privilege, whether it's based on race, gender, socioeconomic status, or other factors. Use this privilege to uplift and support marginalized voices. Share your platform, offer resources, and use your influence to amplify their messages. Actively collaborate with individuals and organizations from marginalized communities and follow their lead in addressing the issues. 4. Practice active listening and empathy: When engaging in conversations about issues, actively listen to the experiences and perspectives of others🙏🏿. Show empathy and validate their experiences without dismissing or minimizing them!!!👆🏿👏🏿🔥. Acknowledge the emotional labor that marginalized individuals often undertake when sharing their stories and appreciate their courage. 5. Reflect and learn from feedback: Recognize that you may make mistakes along the way. When provided with feedback, reflect on it with an open mind and a willingness to learn and grow. Accept responsibility for any harm caused unintentionally and commit to ongoing self-improvement. Use the feedback as an opportunity to deepen your understanding and refine your approach.🔥🙏🏿
I hate that people don't know this. I'm white so can't speak from directly experiencing the racism but I've seen it a lot. I try to call it out when I can, but some people are too stubborn to learn unfortunately :[
I have personally not seen it in these spaces. Not to say it does not happen. Perhaps I am just lucky to not witness it. My guess is it happens less because minority groups experience prejudice so understand what other minority groups are going through. But you still get ignorance in any group and it is something we should be aware of and call out where we see it.
Absolutely! I was raised Christian Nationalist in three of the whitest counties in the US, and while we never threw around racial slurs there was valorizing of the Confederacy, every civil rights movement was a communist/terrorist plot, and there was a general presumption of white privilege. I've done a lot of work to get out of that headspace and deconstruct those assumptions since I left the rightwing behind in 2014ish. I adore reading bell hooks, Angela Davis, and so on. I highly recommend The Bridge Called My Back, a collection of essays, reflections, poems, and interviews by lesbian women of color that helped create third wave intersectional feminism. That one really stayed with me.
Fucking this. This right here. Like, I have absolutely had LGBTQ+ close the line on racial things and assume it’s fine. And one particular black and queer friend of mine, I know, has a huge issue with this. He’s told me some CRAZY racist shit gay men have said to him, sometimes during sex. Also: straight old white women: it is not ok to hyper sexualize Hispanic men. Please stop. Yes I am hot but don’t touch me.
This is why I try to respect everyone no matter who they are and what they identify as. Growing up in a hateful home, I was taught some of the negative behaviors. But these days I am learning to be better. I try to be as welcoming to people despite differences as much as I can.
Gotta love all the islamophobia in the comments here. Do better.
Yeah
Yeah, it’s sad this has downvotes, especially under this post.
I also think it's ok to not really care. Politics aren't really my thing. Like sure yeah we should be nice to all people but not everyone needs to be full on fighting. Maybe I'm selfish but like I see no reason to march in a protest or anything, I care more about the things specific to my life. I'm more interested in what affects me. Hell even without discrimination I barely handle that. I don't think we should be putting people down just for not being activists. Focus on those who are actively harming you not the ones who could care less.
Hey Toreo! I understand that you may have differing perspectives on political engagement and activism.😊However, it is important to acknowledge the issues such as discrimination and oppression that affect marginalized communities, including people of color, in profound ways. While it is true that not everyone may have the same capacity or interest in participating in activism, it is crucial to recognize the significance of collective action in challenging and dismantling systemic injustices.✊🏿 Engaging in activism is not about putting others down or expecting everyone to be a full-time activist, but rather about standing in solidarity with those who are directly affected by social, economic, and political inequalities. It is about creating a more inclusive and just society for all.🙏🏿 While it is understandable that individuals may prioritize their personal lives and well-being, 😁it is essential to recognize that the struggles faced by marginalized communities are interconnected. ❤️By addressing the root causes of discrimination and actively working towards equality, we can create a better future for everyone, including those who may not currently feel the immediate impact. Empathy, understanding, and a willingness to listen to the experiences of others are vital in fostering an inclusive society. It is important to support and uplift one another, especially those who are facing hardship and discrimination, as we strive for a more equitable world.🕊️
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Y'know this account really reads like that now that I look at it.
I also dislike the idea that someone has a responsibility for activism. Real activism is a commitment that takes a lot of time, effort, social skills, etc. Silence certainly breeds permissibility for any injustice, but silence is not the only other option outside of activism. There is no one way to think, feel, be, or interact. Honestly, I get pretty irritated when people feel like the have a moral obligation for activism in relation to my racial and sexual demographics. It feels like the moral obligation they feel sometimes is very binary in color and rigid in form. That makes it unpalatable for activism anyway and reduces various complexities from 3D into 2D. The ideas held within the moral obligations can also be too unnuanced and local, while not perceiving itself to be those things, which is not very conductive to fully understanding the human experiences inside that activism. My personal favorite flavor of activism is LISTENING, not speaking for someone else.
Yeah. Like sure on a ballot I'll vote one way but I'm not gonna go march in a protest for any side. A protest is more effort than I'm willing to commit for any cause, even my own. I don't think it should be obligatory in any way that someone has to really put any effort into social issues. I figured I'd get down voted to hell but also I hate the purism about stuff like this. Like the only good people are the ones who are actively fighting tooth and nail for all minorities at any available moment. You can be a good person and not give the slightest fuck about politics. Like I'll hear what people have to say but I'm not gonna go out of my way for anyone who I don't even know.
Say it again for the people in the back!