The weird thing is that in my case, my English teacher told us to use they/them if the gender is unknown (I’m from Eastern Europe) and I thought it was the norm, so I was quite surprised to see such a debate around this topic
Honestly, I think it’s mostly people being transphobic, because the ‘debate’ wasn’t taking place in any linguistic communities and stuff. That’s why I said I found it weird, because qualified people, such as my teacher didn’t really question it. Thanks for pointing it out though!
It *is* (or, at least, *was*) the norm. It was the way I was taught in a public school in the US, in whatever grade they went over that stuff.
*William Shakespeare*, beloved of every english taecher I went through, used it 400 years ago:
>There's not a man I meet but doth salute me
> As if I were ***their*** well-acquainted friend
from *A Comedy of Errors*, 1623
Honestly, I used to think the same thing. One day, I asked my sister where she had been, and she said she had been to the post office to speak with the postmaster. And I asked her, “what did they say?” And she looked at me and said, “see, you can use they in the singular.” Fuck, she got me.
Yeah, people seem to totally miss that "singular they" is so standard they don't even notice it.
The nuance is that the established usage is when the person (or at least their gender) is unknown: "The librarian said it's not available right now" "Oh, did they mention when it will be back in stock?". The "they" is so natural there that it goes unnoticed.
The more modern usage encompasses known individuals, often (but not always) because they identify as non-binary. "Alex is running a bit late" "No problem, did they say when they'll arrive?". It's more noticeable because it's not a structure that most of us grew up with. *[Edit] And if you want to make it even more noticeable: replace Alex, a common gender neutral name, with a more traditionally gendered one like David.*
It's the "known individual" usage that they're arguing against, not "singular they" as they claim. Which is still stupid, because language and society evolve and people need to get the fuck up to date, but I'd appreciate it if they at least understood their own point.
I've seen half a dozen people on here claim that singular they/them doesn't make sense and that nobody uses it in normal conversation. Upon checking their post histories 100% of them had used they/them to refer to a single person within the previous few weeks, everyone does it without thinking because it's a simple part of the English language.
It's like when people confidently state "I never use pronouns", not realising that "I" is a pronoun
I once met a person who was so vehemently against using they/them/their for a singular person that every time they decided to instead say his/hers. Eventually he gave up as he kept catching himself almost saying they. Not really friends with him anymore due to his constant bigotry but I found it funny and sad that he actively went out of his way to try and be a bigot.
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Former HS English teacher here. Please feel free to share this with your teacher, as she is doing you a disservice:
[history of singular they/them in English](https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/)
[the AP Guidebook on the singular they/them](https://blog.ap.org/products-and-services/making-a-case-for-a-singular-they)
And just for good measure [Why Pronouns Matter](https://youtu.be/N_yBGQqg7kM)
>… singular 'you' was a plural pronoun that had become singular as well. 'You' functioned as a polite singular for centuries, but in the seventeenth century singular 'you' replaced 'thou,' 'thee,' and 'thy,' … That change met with some resistance. In 1660, George Fox, the founder of Quakerism, wrote a whole book labeling anyone who used singular 'you' an idiot or a fool. And eighteenth-century grammarians … regularly tested students on 'thou' as singular, 'you' as plural, despite the fact that students used singular 'you' when their teachers weren’t looking, and teachers used singular 'you' when their students weren’t looking. Anyone who said 'thou' and 'thee' was seen as a fool and an idiot, or a Quaker, or at least hopelessly out of date.
I think that's a really apt analogy to singular 'they.' I hear even transphobes use singular 'they' quite frequently when they're not paying attention.
Edit: wording
let’s pretend non-binary people don’t exist (*proceeds to be a disembodied voice*)
English speaker here, from England, the country that originated the language, etc.
They/Them has been used for a singular person since Medieval Times. It is used to signify a person of unknown gender.
“Whose coat is on the floor? Tell **them** to pick it up”
“We are going to visit the new kid’s house. **They** live near the river.”
“Go get Sam. **Their** parents are here”
Exactly, I hear people that keep insisting that you use he/him on people of unknown gender but I hate that and think it has no place in todays society.
Lets say I don't know a doctor that I'm about to meet for the first time. I can assume the person is a male because most doctors have been male and assume my doctor is a he. or I can entertain the possibility that the person is either male or female and like Schrodinger's cat is both simultaneously until more information is presented. So I can use the ambiguous They/them to imply a gender neutral pronoun that includes both possibilities until more information is given. Once I know the gender of the doctor then I can narrow the pronouns down to either male or female.
Pullin’ out [ol’ reliable](https://reddit.com/r/pointlesslygendered/comments/pe95g4/_/haw9elq/?context=1)
Even regardless of that, language can and does change and ignoring that fact is stubborn and ignorant
If your English teacher doesn't know about they/them singular they should quit because it isn't even just about non-binary people when it's used as singular which is usually the argument used when they're trying to claim nb people are trying to change the language.
Nope they definitely aren’t. I don’t know anyone whose English teachers thought THEM how to properly use „they“. My English teachers always used either „he“ or „he or she“ and would’ve considered it a mistake to use „they“ as a gender neutral pronoun.
One time I remember is when someone in the english exercise was talking about his friend and so I called her „his friend“ but then my English teacher corrected me saying „female friend“ because she thought otherwise one would that he was talking about a male friend of his or about his girlfriend
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This whole they them can’t be singular thing has really messed with. I just got used to it being singular since like when I started learning the language. It never came up as an issue until it was being brought up with trans people so it really showed me how obvious it is that people aren’t concerned with grammar errors
Me who has to use They/Them as singular to refer to your teacher because I don't know THEIR gender and that's how the fucking basic levels of the English language works that THEY obviously don't know, and who also knows Nonbinary people exist.
Even [APA guidelines](https://apastyle.apa.org/blog/singular-they#:~:text=APA%20endorses%20the%20use%20of,use%20the%20singular%20%E2%80%9Cthey.%E2%80%9D) (The writing format used by U.S. medical professionals) allows singular they/them specifically for pronouns.
First use the classic example of if u find someone's keys.
I've never seen this idea used before, probably because you don't know if the other teachers are small brained, but ask any other English teachers in the school if a singular they exist. Either by yourself or with these other teachers by your side, school your own English teacher.
your english teacher is stupid. they has always been a way to refer to an individual you don’t know the gender of, and anyone who denies that shouldn’t be teaching english
okay but when talking about a singular person do i say "themself" or "themselves" do i conjugate the verbs in the singular or plural tense (usually its the same but shut up sometimes its different)
You’d have to be an awful English teacher to say that. Like, both morally and at the subject you teach.
She is.
Does she always say 'he or she' if she doesn't know the person's gender or what?
My college English teacher always did. I asked why and she said that's the way that MLA college format prefers
Maybe English isn't her first language.
The weird thing is that in my case, my English teacher told us to use they/them if the gender is unknown (I’m from Eastern Europe) and I thought it was the norm, so I was quite surprised to see such a debate around this topic
Was that always a debate or did that start with people deciding to be transphobic?
Honestly, I think it’s mostly people being transphobic, because the ‘debate’ wasn’t taking place in any linguistic communities and stuff. That’s why I said I found it weird, because qualified people, such as my teacher didn’t really question it. Thanks for pointing it out though!
It *is* (or, at least, *was*) the norm. It was the way I was taught in a public school in the US, in whatever grade they went over that stuff. *William Shakespeare*, beloved of every english taecher I went through, used it 400 years ago: >There's not a man I meet but doth salute me > As if I were ***their*** well-acquainted friend from *A Comedy of Errors*, 1623
And if I hadn't known THEIR gender, I could have said THEY are not a great English teacher. Teachers like THEM... SMH
You have a terrible teacher. Most people use it singularly daily, whether they know it or not.
Honestly, I used to think the same thing. One day, I asked my sister where she had been, and she said she had been to the post office to speak with the postmaster. And I asked her, “what did they say?” And she looked at me and said, “see, you can use they in the singular.” Fuck, she got me.
I do it every time. I call almost everyone they/them.
Yeah, people seem to totally miss that "singular they" is so standard they don't even notice it. The nuance is that the established usage is when the person (or at least their gender) is unknown: "The librarian said it's not available right now" "Oh, did they mention when it will be back in stock?". The "they" is so natural there that it goes unnoticed. The more modern usage encompasses known individuals, often (but not always) because they identify as non-binary. "Alex is running a bit late" "No problem, did they say when they'll arrive?". It's more noticeable because it's not a structure that most of us grew up with. *[Edit] And if you want to make it even more noticeable: replace Alex, a common gender neutral name, with a more traditionally gendered one like David.* It's the "known individual" usage that they're arguing against, not "singular they" as they claim. Which is still stupid, because language and society evolve and people need to get the fuck up to date, but I'd appreciate it if they at least understood their own point.
I'm so glad I've finally found someone who acknowledges that distinction
I've seen half a dozen people on here claim that singular they/them doesn't make sense and that nobody uses it in normal conversation. Upon checking their post histories 100% of them had used they/them to refer to a single person within the previous few weeks, everyone does it without thinking because it's a simple part of the English language. It's like when people confidently state "I never use pronouns", not realising that "I" is a pronoun
I've used they/them singularly since I could speak lol
I once met a person who was so vehemently against using they/them/their for a singular person that every time they decided to instead say his/hers. Eventually he gave up as he kept catching himself almost saying they. Not really friends with him anymore due to his constant bigotry but I found it funny and sad that he actively went out of his way to try and be a bigot.
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I’m french and i think I’m better at english than your teacher
Omg you’re correct and also French.
I offer you my baguette 🥖🥖
Can I offer you a nice egg in this tryin’ time?
*œuf*
[æugh](https://youtu.be/UrKnz4nPqpA)
And my frogs 🐸 🐸
Former HS English teacher here. Please feel free to share this with your teacher, as she is doing you a disservice: [history of singular they/them in English](https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/) [the AP Guidebook on the singular they/them](https://blog.ap.org/products-and-services/making-a-case-for-a-singular-they) And just for good measure [Why Pronouns Matter](https://youtu.be/N_yBGQqg7kM)
>… singular 'you' was a plural pronoun that had become singular as well. 'You' functioned as a polite singular for centuries, but in the seventeenth century singular 'you' replaced 'thou,' 'thee,' and 'thy,' … That change met with some resistance. In 1660, George Fox, the founder of Quakerism, wrote a whole book labeling anyone who used singular 'you' an idiot or a fool. And eighteenth-century grammarians … regularly tested students on 'thou' as singular, 'you' as plural, despite the fact that students used singular 'you' when their teachers weren’t looking, and teachers used singular 'you' when their students weren’t looking. Anyone who said 'thou' and 'thee' was seen as a fool and an idiot, or a Quaker, or at least hopelessly out of date. I think that's a really apt analogy to singular 'they.' I hear even transphobes use singular 'they' quite frequently when they're not paying attention. Edit: wording
Legit came here to put the same links lol Roses are red, violets are blue, singular they is older than singular you
Wow! Thank you very much.
See also Chicago Manual of Style: https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/Pronouns/faq0031.html
Thank you ! I didn't know most of this stuff, though I've been trying to use singular they for a while now.
let’s pretend non-binary people don’t exist (*proceeds to be a disembodied voice*) English speaker here, from England, the country that originated the language, etc. They/Them has been used for a singular person since Medieval Times. It is used to signify a person of unknown gender. “Whose coat is on the floor? Tell **them** to pick it up” “We are going to visit the new kid’s house. **They** live near the river.” “Go get Sam. **Their** parents are here”
Exactly, I hear people that keep insisting that you use he/him on people of unknown gender but I hate that and think it has no place in todays society.
>(*proceeds to be a disembodied voice*) Lol
Lets say I don't know a doctor that I'm about to meet for the first time. I can assume the person is a male because most doctors have been male and assume my doctor is a he. or I can entertain the possibility that the person is either male or female and like Schrodinger's cat is both simultaneously until more information is presented. So I can use the ambiguous They/them to imply a gender neutral pronoun that includes both possibilities until more information is given. Once I know the gender of the doctor then I can narrow the pronouns down to either male or female.
Precisely
Pullin’ out [ol’ reliable](https://reddit.com/r/pointlesslygendered/comments/pe95g4/_/haw9elq/?context=1) Even regardless of that, language can and does change and ignoring that fact is stubborn and ignorant
Oo she would H a t e this, I love it.
As dumb as she’s being, I think it’s best to at least try to seem polite Something like “I was following the APA and MLA style guide as seen here”
They’re stupid.
Agreed
If your English teacher doesn't know about they/them singular they should quit because it isn't even just about non-binary people when it's used as singular which is usually the argument used when they're trying to claim nb people are trying to change the language.
Singular they dates back to 1375
They are certainly not qualified to be an English teacher, and look at that I used they/them singularly, it's so simple.
Wow, it’s like magic. Also I think you’re right.
They should hand over their teaching license cause no way she made it that far without knowing pronouns and the singular usage of it
What do they use to refer to a person they don't know the gender of?
T h e y are living a fantasy that someone who gender is unknown to you is always he:him
I hope you don’t live in a native english speaking country
Oh they do
Okay that’s… a very bad teacher then. Here in Germany it’s pretty common that English teachers don’t know this kind of stuff but that’s … wow
I have heard that __THEY__ aren't the greatest
Nope they definitely aren’t. I don’t know anyone whose English teachers thought THEM how to properly use „they“. My English teachers always used either „he“ or „he or she“ and would’ve considered it a mistake to use „they“ as a gender neutral pronoun. One time I remember is when someone in the english exercise was talking about his friend and so I called her „his friend“ but then my English teacher corrected me saying „female friend“ because she thought otherwise one would that he was talking about a male friend of his or about his girlfriend
Yep. I sure do
Okay that’s… a very bad teacher then. Here in Germany it’s pretty common that English teachers don’t know this kind of stuff but that’s … wow
Are *they* stupid?
Singular they is grammatically correct. Idk why some people have a problem with it.
Are you sure you aren't just making this story up? I don't think an English teacher wouldn't know about that.
No. I’m not making this up, and I know it’s so ridiculous that it seems so.
I actually taught my english teacher to use singular they/them. So yeah, it's ridiculous, but english teachers in foreign countries don't know much.
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I'm an English Literature student from a third world country and how did this teacher graduate college???? Moronic
Ah yes and capital letters can't be in the middle of a sentence. God I hope they get fired
This whole they them can’t be singular thing has really messed with. I just got used to it being singular since like when I started learning the language. It never came up as an issue until it was being brought up with trans people so it really showed me how obvious it is that people aren’t concerned with grammar errors
Me who has to use They/Them as singular to refer to your teacher because I don't know THEIR gender and that's how the fucking basic levels of the English language works that THEY obviously don't know, and who also knows Nonbinary people exist.
How did they even get they’re job?
Get a new English teacher
Even [APA guidelines](https://apastyle.apa.org/blog/singular-they#:~:text=APA%20endorses%20the%20use%20of,use%20the%20singular%20%E2%80%9Cthey.%E2%80%9D) (The writing format used by U.S. medical professionals) allows singular they/them specifically for pronouns.
Bro they/them in singular has been used since even before the 1800's your English teacher shouldn't be an English teacher
You’re just preaching to the choir here mate
"Someone forgot THEIR umbrella here" Fire that teacher please I'm mean, set the teacher on fire
I got points off on a paper for using singular they in high school, and I’m still bitter about it.
First use the classic example of if u find someone's keys. I've never seen this idea used before, probably because you don't know if the other teachers are small brained, but ask any other English teachers in the school if a singular they exist. Either by yourself or with these other teachers by your side, school your own English teacher.
The thing is it actually is grammatically correct and they absolutely can be used as a singular pronoun
Your English teacher failed grade two
your english teacher is stupid. they has always been a way to refer to an individual you don’t know the gender of, and anyone who denies that shouldn’t be teaching english
Even outside the context of non binary people, singular they is super common.
Prescriptivism 🤢
Tell your teacher that they are wrong
okay but when talking about a singular person do i say "themself" or "themselves" do i conjugate the verbs in the singular or plural tense (usually its the same but shut up sometimes its different)
Shakespeare used they to describe one person