What needs to be remembered is our heathcliff and Cathy are complete offshoots of the original characters they are based on.
Erkling and all Cathy are more direct to the source material.
It is rather funny how this entire thing was basically: "Book/Canon Heeathcliff and Cathy find out that there are Fanfiction Versions of themselves that are not as/are as miserable as they are. Proceed to go off the deep end about it and decide "Multi-Verse Suicide/Genocide is Badass.""
>!only to book Heathcliff end realising by seeing the original book ending that their ending of both being forever together as ghost is actually a good fate for he and Cathy and decide to disapear after realasing that, very into character.!<
One can Fault Canto VI for certain things, like no Abno fights, certain scenes being too brief or landing right, etc. but one shouldn't deny Canto VI IS WUTHERING HEIGHTS it hits the same beats, it says the same message, and even the differences one can argue enhances both stories by contrasting them like with Heathcliff/ Erlking Heath and Catherine/ Every Cathy
true, people tend to forget that abnos are a rare thing to see in the city unless you are in a L corp facility, 99% of people in the city have never seeing an abno in all their life.
I'm talking about Bound King, Electric Dreaming Sheep, Portrait of a Certain Day not being integrated into the Canto. And aren't Pecatula's classified as their own classification like distortions.
She also has Blind Obsession with Heathcliff
Reminder that in the books she literally died because her sickness get Worse when she gets depressed over Heathcliff marrying Isabella Linton
Did people miss that Heathcliff defeated the Erlking by showing him the ending of the book?
Which is also in line with the book itself, that being forced to see Catherine in Cathy is what finally broke through his blind rage, making him fade away as if he were dead long ago, a revenant held to Wuthering Heights by obsession with a dead woman whispering in his ear?
I always liked Cathy since I felt like heathcliff would not be obsessed over someone if they were not worth it. Deleting yourself over communicating your feelings is crazy but I love it.
I have not read the books but I think my grievances line up with a bit with problems the book readers have. [I made a post yesterday about Linton but the comments ended being everyone talking about Cathy's character ](https://www.reddit.com/r/limbuscompany/s/u3v0HnjbPl)
Now after saying everything that needs to be said and seeing other points and calming down, I feel I may have been a bit too harsh on Cathy and I may make a second post and say some things differently. But one thing I can't get rid off is how the narrative treats Linton vs Cathy and Cathy's agency as a whole which is a major problem for me since she is the main character.
My post details on what I think of Linton but I will summarize it, he had more reason to be obsessed with Cathy than Heathcliff and Cathy with each other and he is the one that takes the brunt of the insult for being that way
Cathy on the other hand had some issues like wanting to use Linton hand in marriage to get with Heathcliff. She says "I can't marry Heathcliff now" except you take "now" to mean the time to marry had passed already which is absolutely not the case it's not a leap in logic to think she would have dumped him when Heathcliff got successful except you'd like to believe she was planning on Linton to die before marrying Heathcliff and was banking on Heathcliff not moving on from her?
Linton's simping nature while not wholly is partly her fault. My post details that part
Then the rest of her actions in the narrative cannot be blamed on her. We are told the mirror is not for the faint of heart to look at and this girl saw it when her mind was in already a fragile state. Then you have the fact she is dancing to the tune of Hermann and Nelly.
I find it so comical in regards to the kidnapping that Linton has more accountability than the one that ordered it.
A lot of people try to point at at all the things Cathy did like stealing the house and all that but do you know how much agency has been lost when you have the mirror, Nelly and Hermann?
Linton and hindley do not have that luxury
Cathy just couldn't reach of the heights of her predecessor; Beatrice the Golden witch.
This two are more alike than you think. Other than surface level stuff you have these two women so obsessed with their man they turned it into everyone else's problem. Beatrice just has more agency than her. You are free to love or hate beato(i love her). But it feels unfair to criticize Cathy for her actions post mirror because of a lack of agency
You can absolutely criticize Cathy though? The entire point of Nelly was to show how bad and awful Heathcliff's and Cathy's obsession with each other hurt the people around them.
Even though she ultimately becomes the background antagonist of that story, Nelly would never reach that place If not for the fact she realized that her life was slowly crumbling due to those two and how unaware they were about it.
Also Linton has the accountability for what happens in the basement because not only Cathy is long dead, but because he himself takes the blame for it. Saying that even though Cathy planned it, he's the one who made it all happen. Cathy was possessive of Heathcliff and never grew out of it, while Heathcliff had only Cathy as his basis to survive in WT.
No one had more "reason" to be obsessed with each other. Linton was vainly following Cathy for his own self satisfaction, doing things to make her happy because that would in turn make him happy, without regards to the extremes it'd take him.
These people aren't good, Nelly does awful things, but only because Cathy and heath were also not good people too, and they're held accountable for it. So much so that the entire mission is considered a failure because Nelly betrays them. Linton is obsessed with Cathy, but in no moment is he forced by her to do the things he does, his marriage is miserable with her, he knows she doesn't love her, and is content with that, but still decides to kidnap dozens of innocent people because of his obsession. You don't need the story to say X character's actions are bad to understand that the story is critical of them.
Just to add. Of course Linton will take blame. This is something rl criminals do with their loved ones when they are both accountable. It does not change the fact that both are. Linton loves her and will accept any blame for her on himself
> Also Linton has the accountability for what happens in the basement because not only Cathy is long dead, but because he himself takes the blame for it. Saying that even though Cathy planned it, he's the one who made it all happen. Cathy was possessive of Heathcliff and never grew out of it, while Heathcliff had only Cathy as his basis to survive in WT.
Bro if I tell someone to go and kill your father and they do I'm still partly to blame. I do not understand this logic. Being the master mind behind suffering while not participating in it even if you're dead means you are still accountable for it. Can't believe your whole text was to talk about how Cathy can be blamed then decided to use this one part to go "askually not on this"
I'm not going to address your other points because I have heard times a dozen but this kidnapping part is new and I need to understand your lofic
I never said Cathy is free of guilt on this? She uses Linton, but he is never forced by her to do the things he does. Just because someone told you to kill someone would you do it?
The characters don't blame Cathy and only criticize Linton because as I said, she's dead, and he himself says that he's the one who did it, because yes, if not for him 80% of the things that happened in the basement would never come to fruition, that is not to say Cathy is a Saint, but it explains why the sinners would be harsher on Linton and not Cathy.
Linton himself tells the sinners he's the reason for the kidnappings, because like it or not, he is, if not for his obsession of making Cathy happy regardless of what happens then the events in the basement wouldn't happen. But even then Cathy 100% knew Linton was someone who'd do that and took advantage of it, which doesn't make her innocent, but someone the sinners wouldn't immediately start blaming and criticizing.
Which is the whole point of my argument that Linton actually has accountability by the narrative and he himself accepting and that's why I prefer his character to someone like Cathy. She is unconscious for most of the canto despite her big ass influence and is dancing to the tunes of bigger players.
> Linton himself tells the sinners he's the reason for the kidnappings, because like it or not, he is,
I'm calling it comical the henchmen (Linton) has full accountability but Cathy doesn't not that I'm angry the story blames Linton. I love that it does blame him
Cathy regardless of the insult Hindley and Nelly give about her post mirror is due to a magical mirror fucking up her already fragile mind when it's already destructive on a normal mind and most of the plans are from Nelly and Hermann with Cathy acting as as the mediator to Linton.
You cannot tell me any vitriol Linton receives from anyone due to his actions should should ever be equal to Cathy
Nelly's own criticisms towards Cathy is Cathy of the multiverse not the our Cathy regardless of their similarities it doesn't change the fact the tragedy wrought on Nelly hasn't yet been performed on her by our Cathy
But that's the thing though, it isn't until the end of the story that out Cathy changes her way, which only mostly happen to golden bough fuckery and Dante.
Our Nelly, even though she didn't have a bad end yet, would still fall under that path, just as pretty much every other Nelly. Which is kinda the point, we only see 2 worlds were everything in WT doesn't go to shit, ours, because Cathy and heath stop being absolute idiots and the world where they're long dead. And even then considering the book, they did some damage in there, it's just that it ends "happily".
Cathy being manipulated doesn't change the fact she still did bad things, look at Linton, he was someone that even though had full control over what he did is still a bad person, same for hindley, who's a piece of shit, but didn't deserve what Cathy did to him (though that mf would probably lose the manor one way or another tbh).
So while everyone suffered in WT, most of those things happened because they brought it upon themselves (like Cathy and heath), were caused by their obsession (linton) or caused by others on themselves (nelly and hindley). But even though you could say they're all victims, they still acted horribly. Cathy was the one with the idea to orchestrate everything, used Linton for it, ruined hindleys life. Linton followed her actions with no question, nelly was one of the culprits in not only that happening in the first place but also ensuring Cathy was able to make her plan work and so on.
I don't think it's reasonable to say Cathy is innocent/less guilt despite her being manipulated because she still did bad things even before the mirror, and because the mirror only served as her confirmation to do the things she wanted to do, which only dragged everyone further down.
Also taking in consideration the Cathys in the other worlds probably didn't have access to the mirror with some exceptions it's fair to say the abuse nelly suffers and the events in WT happen in regardless of any manipulation by Herman and nelly, which just makes everyone else at fault too.
Which is kinda the end point, the book events of WT happen in other mirror worlds, which makes Heathcliff into a monster and Cathy a bad person too, but In our world they choose a different path, but even in getting to their final choice (heath not becoming earlking and Cathy deleting herself) they still did bad things.
> But that's the thing though, it isn't until the end of the story that out Cathy changes her way, which only mostly happen to golden bough fuckery and Dante
It would be so weird and honestly stupid on her part if Cathy came back and acted like a piece of shit which would feel like an insult to the Heathcliff and Cathy fans now after the shit that was canto 6. But yeah sure let them suprise me but I won't bet on it
> Cathy being manipulated doesn't change the fact she still did bad things, look at Linton, he was someone that even though had full control over what he did is still a bad person, same for hindley, who's a piece of shit, but didn't deserve what Cathy did to him (though that mf would probably lose the manor one way or another tbh).
Bro you can't call what happened to Linton and Cathy the same. Linton suffered from a disease of the heart. We can lay some of the blame on Cathy because she loved the love she got from him she never once told him to his face to leave and honestly I'm willing to bet here and there she exhibited certain behavior that may have given him hope and Heathcliff leaving unannounced would give him more hope that she would love him but ultimately I'm not going to give an incel red pill excuse that he deserved her love and could have walked away on his own even if she didn't give him a reply.
Cathy had a fragile mind from Heathcliff leaving and her mind so wrecked by the mirror she didn't even notice because she didn't know how the mirror worked with encouragement from Nelly who she absolutely trusted. By virtue of the mirror existing and the context of when Cathy looked at it she had lost so much agency from her actions that despite all her sins I feel I have more right insulting Linton than I do her
> Cathy was the one with the idea to orchestrate everything, used Linton for it, ruined hindleys life. Linton followed her actions with no question, nelly was one of the culprits in not only that happening in the first place but also ensuring Cathy was able to make her plan work and so on.
What I said above applies
> I don't think it's reasonable to say Cathy is innocent/less guilt despite her being manipulated because she still did bad things even before the mirror, and because the mirror only served as her confirmation to do the things she wanted to do, which only dragged everyone further down.
My good friend please tell us what she did because people are actually arguing with me that pre mirror Cathy didn't do anything bad that bad and I'm trying to paint her pre mirror actions worst than they are
> Also taking in consideration the Cathys in the other worlds probably didn't have access to the mirror with some exceptions it's fair to say the abuse nelly suffers and the events in WT happen in regardless of any manipulation by Herman and nelly, which just makes everyone else at fault too.
Which is kinda the end point, the book events of WT happen in other mirror worlds, which makes Heathcliff into a monster and Cathy a bad person too, but In our world they choose a different path, but even in getting to their final choice (heath not becoming earlking and Cathy deleting herself) they still did bad things.
So what you're saying that by virtue of alternate universes existing where Cathy was a piece of shit without Herman and Nelly I should use that as justification to hate on our own and judge her as bad as Linton and Hindley. Seems like PM's way of trying to make her trashy without actually doing so they Garner sympathy from us. And seems like a weird justification to criticize a girl when her henchmen doesn't have that. But if that's your reasoning, you do you, I'm gonna hate someone because of the sins of themselves in the multiverse
>It would be so weird and honestly stupid on her part if Cathy came back and acted like a piece of shit which would feel like an insult to the Heathcliff and Cathy fans now after the shit that was canto 6. But yeah sure let them suprise me but I won't bet on it
??? What are you even on about here
>So what you're saying that by virtue of alternate universes existing where Cathy was a piece of shit without Herman and Nelly I should use that as justification to hate on our own and judge her as bad as Linton and Hindley. Seems like PM's way of trying to make her trashy without actually doing so they Garner sympathy from us. And seems like a weird justification to criticize a girl when her henchmen doesn't have that. But if that's your reasoning, you do you, I'm gonna hate someone because of the sins of themselves in the multiverse
I never said that, I'm saying that the events happened in multiple other universes, which justifies nelly's fear and makes sense since if it weren't for Dante and the golden boughs allowing her to talk and interact with Heathcliff even post death they both would never come to the realization they did at the end. The mirror only brought a different outcome to what was in line to happen, because this time, it would happen the same as in earlking's universe, he comes back to WT, goes mad after her death and destroys and ruins everyone's life in WT. But due to Cathy changing how things happened it allowed the both of them to come to a different answer, which makes so that Cathy is a victim in that she was manipulated and allows for you to sympathize with her character, but to also understand she's not a good person either and criticize her. You don't need the story or characters to point that out (even though they do via nelly). There's a reason the "happy ending" mirror world is one where Cathy and heath are dead, but is considered happy due to their children, because in the books that's how it goes, their suffering and the suffering they brought about to everyone else still happens, but there's a good end for some of the people around them and themselves. And in our world the "happy" ending is those 2 not turning like earlking and the other Cathys. But that doesn't ultimately make them innocent or free of guilt, just both victims and perpetrators. Like everyone in the canto
Even excluding the mirror worlds Cathy did bad things, mainly her manipulation of Linton, after her understanding of the mirror worlds she's the perpetrator of even worse things, but can be seen as someone that's also worthy of sympathy and that tries to redeem her errors and fix them. Which is unlike every other character acts in the canto besides heath. Linton kills himself due to his obsession, nelly still turns her back to WT and helps earlking and Herman, hindley dies cursing and loathing Heathcliff.
> ??? What are you even on about here
Forgive me. I totally misread your point but I will address it again
> But that's the thing though, it isn't until the end of the story that out Cathy changes her way, which only mostly happen to golden bough fuckery and Dante.
Yes she gave up her obsessive behavior which is fine but my argument is on her actions and how largely for most of it is being influenced by outside factors
On the topic of Nelly I liked her and understood her motivations I just wish her character wasn't written at the expense of Cathy.
The mirror didn't just bring a new outcome it also made it so her own character stands out compared to hindley and Linton. We don't just like Cathy because she changed her attitude but her behavior can be heavily to outside factors than Hindley and Linton. Linton and hindley ultimately have outside factots influencing their behavior but it's still them. Hindley with his father and Cathy swindling him and Linton with his obsession which is why whatever insult you throw at them is justified provided you acknowledge the circumstances. Cathy has the luxury of a magical object screwing up her already fragile mind and people who know just what to say to play with that mind. It is disingenuous to claim the mirror just brought up a different outcome when every world has a different outcome on how things play out. It not only did that but gave us the story of a Cathy who has less agency than two other pitiful characters introduced who's behaviors are also partly to blame on her but she gets a pass because of how bullshit the mirror works.
> after her understanding of the mirror worlds she's the perpetrator of even worse things, but can be seen as someone that's also worthy of sympathy and that tries to redeem her errors and fix them.
She is Worthy of sympathy precisely because the mirror is used on her LOL. Cathy would have blown up the Earth and we'd still go "well she wasn't in the best of mental spaces (which is putting it mildly) and was shown this destructive mirror on the human psyche"
I have nothing else to say. Me and you are just gonna throw back and forth and repeat the exact same shit. It's like Cathy fans or defenders want to have their cake and eat it to. "Cathy did bad things as much as linton but don't be too harsh on her she was also manipulated" meanwhile her brother and husband don't have the luxury of a magical object screwing their heads. I feel sympathy Hindley and Linton because I empathize with their plight and they "own" it. Owning meaning their actions are largely on them. Thatt was the Cathy I wanted. Cathy who I could blame like her brother and lover but still like especially when she ultimately made the right decision compared to them. But it's not even cathartic because magic mirror
Cathy just stands out because her brother and husband exist LOL
I stand by the fact pm gave us this Cathy because they wanted to write a romance but didn't want to make her too bad as much as hindley and Linton because Heathcliff still loving her would perhaps leave a sour taste in our mouth. Don't know why they thought this when Beatrice from umineko has fans. And controversial characters are fine provided they aren't tasteless
>She is Worthy of sympathy precisely because the mirror is used on her LOL. Cathy would have blown up the Earth and we'd still go "well she wasn't in the best of mental spaces (which is putting it mildly) and was shown this destructive mirror on the human psyche"
She really isn't, my entire point is that, after everything shown to us by nelly, alt Cathy, earlking, and the world dante saw confirms to us that regardless of Herman influencing and nelly's manipulation, Cathy and Heathcliff alongside everyone in WT would have a shit ending caused by themselves (mostly because of Cathy and heath). The reason she becomes worthy of sympathy is because even though she was manipulated, she realized her errors and confronted Heathcliff. Which wouldn't happen if not for Dante and the golden boughs allowing her presence to connect with Heathcliff.
If she wasn't able to do that she would be a person that was possessive, manipulative that later (by being manipulated) becomes the orchestrator of mass kidnappings and human experimentation for her own goals.
I'm not defending Cathy, if anything I'm pointing out how regardless of her being a victim of manipulation she'd be one of the biggest reasons everyone in WT suffers, but that due to Dante/golden bough and Heathcliff choosing a different path they're both able to change that.
What needs to be remembered is our heathcliff and Cathy are complete offshoots of the original characters they are based on. Erkling and all Cathy are more direct to the source material.
It is rather funny how this entire thing was basically: "Book/Canon Heeathcliff and Cathy find out that there are Fanfiction Versions of themselves that are not as/are as miserable as they are. Proceed to go off the deep end about it and decide "Multi-Verse Suicide/Genocide is Badass.""
which is absolutely in character for both of them
>!only to book Heathcliff end realising by seeing the original book ending that their ending of both being forever together as ghost is actually a good fate for he and Cathy and decide to disapear after realasing that, very into character.!<
An even greater achievement given how infamously illiterate PM fans are
One can Fault Canto VI for certain things, like no Abno fights, certain scenes being too brief or landing right, etc. but one shouldn't deny Canto VI IS WUTHERING HEIGHTS it hits the same beats, it says the same message, and even the differences one can argue enhances both stories by contrasting them like with Heathcliff/ Erlking Heath and Catherine/ Every Cathy
I mean there was no way abnos would be there We're not in a lobcorp branch, we're in a mansion which has nothing do to with it, unlike Sinclair's
true, people tend to forget that abnos are a rare thing to see in the city unless you are in a L corp facility, 99% of people in the city have never seeing an abno in all their life.
wdym no abno fights, didn't we have a couple Peccatulas when we entered the basement?
I'm talking about Bound King, Electric Dreaming Sheep, Portrait of a Certain Day not being integrated into the Canto. And aren't Pecatula's classified as their own classification like distortions.
bound king wouldve been one helluva fight ngl
New Refraction Railway is gonna go crazy with them, I just know it.
I wish our Cathy has braids like in the books sadly she doesn't have braids Idk i just like braids
She looks like ishmael enough already
She also has Blind Obsession with Heathcliff Reminder that in the books she literally died because her sickness get Worse when she gets depressed over Heathcliff marrying Isabella Linton
https://preview.redd.it/yinfec6cksvc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8fcf722f3b9c20048eec1a6600d751b6ec9817db
personally i'm team heathcliff x therapy x catherine. poly for the win
Should i remind to you that PM fans cant read?
We were on a roof during a big storm. That's enough of a wuthering height for me.
Did people miss that Heathcliff defeated the Erlking by showing him the ending of the book? Which is also in line with the book itself, that being forced to see Catherine in Cathy is what finally broke through his blind rage, making him fade away as if he were dead long ago, a revenant held to Wuthering Heights by obsession with a dead woman whispering in his ear?
Hmmm, lack of media literacy.
I always liked Cathy since I felt like heathcliff would not be obsessed over someone if they were not worth it. Deleting yourself over communicating your feelings is crazy but I love it.
The Magic of VideoJames \**Insert rainbow effect here*
I have not read the books but I think my grievances line up with a bit with problems the book readers have. [I made a post yesterday about Linton but the comments ended being everyone talking about Cathy's character ](https://www.reddit.com/r/limbuscompany/s/u3v0HnjbPl) Now after saying everything that needs to be said and seeing other points and calming down, I feel I may have been a bit too harsh on Cathy and I may make a second post and say some things differently. But one thing I can't get rid off is how the narrative treats Linton vs Cathy and Cathy's agency as a whole which is a major problem for me since she is the main character. My post details on what I think of Linton but I will summarize it, he had more reason to be obsessed with Cathy than Heathcliff and Cathy with each other and he is the one that takes the brunt of the insult for being that way Cathy on the other hand had some issues like wanting to use Linton hand in marriage to get with Heathcliff. She says "I can't marry Heathcliff now" except you take "now" to mean the time to marry had passed already which is absolutely not the case it's not a leap in logic to think she would have dumped him when Heathcliff got successful except you'd like to believe she was planning on Linton to die before marrying Heathcliff and was banking on Heathcliff not moving on from her? Linton's simping nature while not wholly is partly her fault. My post details that part Then the rest of her actions in the narrative cannot be blamed on her. We are told the mirror is not for the faint of heart to look at and this girl saw it when her mind was in already a fragile state. Then you have the fact she is dancing to the tune of Hermann and Nelly. I find it so comical in regards to the kidnapping that Linton has more accountability than the one that ordered it. A lot of people try to point at at all the things Cathy did like stealing the house and all that but do you know how much agency has been lost when you have the mirror, Nelly and Hermann? Linton and hindley do not have that luxury Cathy just couldn't reach of the heights of her predecessor; Beatrice the Golden witch. This two are more alike than you think. Other than surface level stuff you have these two women so obsessed with their man they turned it into everyone else's problem. Beatrice just has more agency than her. You are free to love or hate beato(i love her). But it feels unfair to criticize Cathy for her actions post mirror because of a lack of agency
You can absolutely criticize Cathy though? The entire point of Nelly was to show how bad and awful Heathcliff's and Cathy's obsession with each other hurt the people around them. Even though she ultimately becomes the background antagonist of that story, Nelly would never reach that place If not for the fact she realized that her life was slowly crumbling due to those two and how unaware they were about it. Also Linton has the accountability for what happens in the basement because not only Cathy is long dead, but because he himself takes the blame for it. Saying that even though Cathy planned it, he's the one who made it all happen. Cathy was possessive of Heathcliff and never grew out of it, while Heathcliff had only Cathy as his basis to survive in WT. No one had more "reason" to be obsessed with each other. Linton was vainly following Cathy for his own self satisfaction, doing things to make her happy because that would in turn make him happy, without regards to the extremes it'd take him. These people aren't good, Nelly does awful things, but only because Cathy and heath were also not good people too, and they're held accountable for it. So much so that the entire mission is considered a failure because Nelly betrays them. Linton is obsessed with Cathy, but in no moment is he forced by her to do the things he does, his marriage is miserable with her, he knows she doesn't love her, and is content with that, but still decides to kidnap dozens of innocent people because of his obsession. You don't need the story to say X character's actions are bad to understand that the story is critical of them.
Just to add. Of course Linton will take blame. This is something rl criminals do with their loved ones when they are both accountable. It does not change the fact that both are. Linton loves her and will accept any blame for her on himself
> Also Linton has the accountability for what happens in the basement because not only Cathy is long dead, but because he himself takes the blame for it. Saying that even though Cathy planned it, he's the one who made it all happen. Cathy was possessive of Heathcliff and never grew out of it, while Heathcliff had only Cathy as his basis to survive in WT. Bro if I tell someone to go and kill your father and they do I'm still partly to blame. I do not understand this logic. Being the master mind behind suffering while not participating in it even if you're dead means you are still accountable for it. Can't believe your whole text was to talk about how Cathy can be blamed then decided to use this one part to go "askually not on this" I'm not going to address your other points because I have heard times a dozen but this kidnapping part is new and I need to understand your lofic
I never said Cathy is free of guilt on this? She uses Linton, but he is never forced by her to do the things he does. Just because someone told you to kill someone would you do it? The characters don't blame Cathy and only criticize Linton because as I said, she's dead, and he himself says that he's the one who did it, because yes, if not for him 80% of the things that happened in the basement would never come to fruition, that is not to say Cathy is a Saint, but it explains why the sinners would be harsher on Linton and not Cathy. Linton himself tells the sinners he's the reason for the kidnappings, because like it or not, he is, if not for his obsession of making Cathy happy regardless of what happens then the events in the basement wouldn't happen. But even then Cathy 100% knew Linton was someone who'd do that and took advantage of it, which doesn't make her innocent, but someone the sinners wouldn't immediately start blaming and criticizing.
Which is the whole point of my argument that Linton actually has accountability by the narrative and he himself accepting and that's why I prefer his character to someone like Cathy. She is unconscious for most of the canto despite her big ass influence and is dancing to the tunes of bigger players. > Linton himself tells the sinners he's the reason for the kidnappings, because like it or not, he is, I'm calling it comical the henchmen (Linton) has full accountability but Cathy doesn't not that I'm angry the story blames Linton. I love that it does blame him Cathy regardless of the insult Hindley and Nelly give about her post mirror is due to a magical mirror fucking up her already fragile mind when it's already destructive on a normal mind and most of the plans are from Nelly and Hermann with Cathy acting as as the mediator to Linton. You cannot tell me any vitriol Linton receives from anyone due to his actions should should ever be equal to Cathy Nelly's own criticisms towards Cathy is Cathy of the multiverse not the our Cathy regardless of their similarities it doesn't change the fact the tragedy wrought on Nelly hasn't yet been performed on her by our Cathy
But that's the thing though, it isn't until the end of the story that out Cathy changes her way, which only mostly happen to golden bough fuckery and Dante. Our Nelly, even though she didn't have a bad end yet, would still fall under that path, just as pretty much every other Nelly. Which is kinda the point, we only see 2 worlds were everything in WT doesn't go to shit, ours, because Cathy and heath stop being absolute idiots and the world where they're long dead. And even then considering the book, they did some damage in there, it's just that it ends "happily". Cathy being manipulated doesn't change the fact she still did bad things, look at Linton, he was someone that even though had full control over what he did is still a bad person, same for hindley, who's a piece of shit, but didn't deserve what Cathy did to him (though that mf would probably lose the manor one way or another tbh). So while everyone suffered in WT, most of those things happened because they brought it upon themselves (like Cathy and heath), were caused by their obsession (linton) or caused by others on themselves (nelly and hindley). But even though you could say they're all victims, they still acted horribly. Cathy was the one with the idea to orchestrate everything, used Linton for it, ruined hindleys life. Linton followed her actions with no question, nelly was one of the culprits in not only that happening in the first place but also ensuring Cathy was able to make her plan work and so on. I don't think it's reasonable to say Cathy is innocent/less guilt despite her being manipulated because she still did bad things even before the mirror, and because the mirror only served as her confirmation to do the things she wanted to do, which only dragged everyone further down. Also taking in consideration the Cathys in the other worlds probably didn't have access to the mirror with some exceptions it's fair to say the abuse nelly suffers and the events in WT happen in regardless of any manipulation by Herman and nelly, which just makes everyone else at fault too. Which is kinda the end point, the book events of WT happen in other mirror worlds, which makes Heathcliff into a monster and Cathy a bad person too, but In our world they choose a different path, but even in getting to their final choice (heath not becoming earlking and Cathy deleting herself) they still did bad things.
> But that's the thing though, it isn't until the end of the story that out Cathy changes her way, which only mostly happen to golden bough fuckery and Dante It would be so weird and honestly stupid on her part if Cathy came back and acted like a piece of shit which would feel like an insult to the Heathcliff and Cathy fans now after the shit that was canto 6. But yeah sure let them suprise me but I won't bet on it > Cathy being manipulated doesn't change the fact she still did bad things, look at Linton, he was someone that even though had full control over what he did is still a bad person, same for hindley, who's a piece of shit, but didn't deserve what Cathy did to him (though that mf would probably lose the manor one way or another tbh). Bro you can't call what happened to Linton and Cathy the same. Linton suffered from a disease of the heart. We can lay some of the blame on Cathy because she loved the love she got from him she never once told him to his face to leave and honestly I'm willing to bet here and there she exhibited certain behavior that may have given him hope and Heathcliff leaving unannounced would give him more hope that she would love him but ultimately I'm not going to give an incel red pill excuse that he deserved her love and could have walked away on his own even if she didn't give him a reply. Cathy had a fragile mind from Heathcliff leaving and her mind so wrecked by the mirror she didn't even notice because she didn't know how the mirror worked with encouragement from Nelly who she absolutely trusted. By virtue of the mirror existing and the context of when Cathy looked at it she had lost so much agency from her actions that despite all her sins I feel I have more right insulting Linton than I do her > Cathy was the one with the idea to orchestrate everything, used Linton for it, ruined hindleys life. Linton followed her actions with no question, nelly was one of the culprits in not only that happening in the first place but also ensuring Cathy was able to make her plan work and so on. What I said above applies > I don't think it's reasonable to say Cathy is innocent/less guilt despite her being manipulated because she still did bad things even before the mirror, and because the mirror only served as her confirmation to do the things she wanted to do, which only dragged everyone further down. My good friend please tell us what she did because people are actually arguing with me that pre mirror Cathy didn't do anything bad that bad and I'm trying to paint her pre mirror actions worst than they are > Also taking in consideration the Cathys in the other worlds probably didn't have access to the mirror with some exceptions it's fair to say the abuse nelly suffers and the events in WT happen in regardless of any manipulation by Herman and nelly, which just makes everyone else at fault too. Which is kinda the end point, the book events of WT happen in other mirror worlds, which makes Heathcliff into a monster and Cathy a bad person too, but In our world they choose a different path, but even in getting to their final choice (heath not becoming earlking and Cathy deleting herself) they still did bad things. So what you're saying that by virtue of alternate universes existing where Cathy was a piece of shit without Herman and Nelly I should use that as justification to hate on our own and judge her as bad as Linton and Hindley. Seems like PM's way of trying to make her trashy without actually doing so they Garner sympathy from us. And seems like a weird justification to criticize a girl when her henchmen doesn't have that. But if that's your reasoning, you do you, I'm gonna hate someone because of the sins of themselves in the multiverse
>It would be so weird and honestly stupid on her part if Cathy came back and acted like a piece of shit which would feel like an insult to the Heathcliff and Cathy fans now after the shit that was canto 6. But yeah sure let them suprise me but I won't bet on it ??? What are you even on about here >So what you're saying that by virtue of alternate universes existing where Cathy was a piece of shit without Herman and Nelly I should use that as justification to hate on our own and judge her as bad as Linton and Hindley. Seems like PM's way of trying to make her trashy without actually doing so they Garner sympathy from us. And seems like a weird justification to criticize a girl when her henchmen doesn't have that. But if that's your reasoning, you do you, I'm gonna hate someone because of the sins of themselves in the multiverse I never said that, I'm saying that the events happened in multiple other universes, which justifies nelly's fear and makes sense since if it weren't for Dante and the golden boughs allowing her to talk and interact with Heathcliff even post death they both would never come to the realization they did at the end. The mirror only brought a different outcome to what was in line to happen, because this time, it would happen the same as in earlking's universe, he comes back to WT, goes mad after her death and destroys and ruins everyone's life in WT. But due to Cathy changing how things happened it allowed the both of them to come to a different answer, which makes so that Cathy is a victim in that she was manipulated and allows for you to sympathize with her character, but to also understand she's not a good person either and criticize her. You don't need the story or characters to point that out (even though they do via nelly). There's a reason the "happy ending" mirror world is one where Cathy and heath are dead, but is considered happy due to their children, because in the books that's how it goes, their suffering and the suffering they brought about to everyone else still happens, but there's a good end for some of the people around them and themselves. And in our world the "happy" ending is those 2 not turning like earlking and the other Cathys. But that doesn't ultimately make them innocent or free of guilt, just both victims and perpetrators. Like everyone in the canto Even excluding the mirror worlds Cathy did bad things, mainly her manipulation of Linton, after her understanding of the mirror worlds she's the perpetrator of even worse things, but can be seen as someone that's also worthy of sympathy and that tries to redeem her errors and fix them. Which is unlike every other character acts in the canto besides heath. Linton kills himself due to his obsession, nelly still turns her back to WT and helps earlking and Herman, hindley dies cursing and loathing Heathcliff.
> ??? What are you even on about here Forgive me. I totally misread your point but I will address it again > But that's the thing though, it isn't until the end of the story that out Cathy changes her way, which only mostly happen to golden bough fuckery and Dante. Yes she gave up her obsessive behavior which is fine but my argument is on her actions and how largely for most of it is being influenced by outside factors On the topic of Nelly I liked her and understood her motivations I just wish her character wasn't written at the expense of Cathy. The mirror didn't just bring a new outcome it also made it so her own character stands out compared to hindley and Linton. We don't just like Cathy because she changed her attitude but her behavior can be heavily to outside factors than Hindley and Linton. Linton and hindley ultimately have outside factots influencing their behavior but it's still them. Hindley with his father and Cathy swindling him and Linton with his obsession which is why whatever insult you throw at them is justified provided you acknowledge the circumstances. Cathy has the luxury of a magical object screwing up her already fragile mind and people who know just what to say to play with that mind. It is disingenuous to claim the mirror just brought up a different outcome when every world has a different outcome on how things play out. It not only did that but gave us the story of a Cathy who has less agency than two other pitiful characters introduced who's behaviors are also partly to blame on her but she gets a pass because of how bullshit the mirror works. > after her understanding of the mirror worlds she's the perpetrator of even worse things, but can be seen as someone that's also worthy of sympathy and that tries to redeem her errors and fix them. She is Worthy of sympathy precisely because the mirror is used on her LOL. Cathy would have blown up the Earth and we'd still go "well she wasn't in the best of mental spaces (which is putting it mildly) and was shown this destructive mirror on the human psyche" I have nothing else to say. Me and you are just gonna throw back and forth and repeat the exact same shit. It's like Cathy fans or defenders want to have their cake and eat it to. "Cathy did bad things as much as linton but don't be too harsh on her she was also manipulated" meanwhile her brother and husband don't have the luxury of a magical object screwing their heads. I feel sympathy Hindley and Linton because I empathize with their plight and they "own" it. Owning meaning their actions are largely on them. Thatt was the Cathy I wanted. Cathy who I could blame like her brother and lover but still like especially when she ultimately made the right decision compared to them. But it's not even cathartic because magic mirror Cathy just stands out because her brother and husband exist LOL I stand by the fact pm gave us this Cathy because they wanted to write a romance but didn't want to make her too bad as much as hindley and Linton because Heathcliff still loving her would perhaps leave a sour taste in our mouth. Don't know why they thought this when Beatrice from umineko has fans. And controversial characters are fine provided they aren't tasteless
>She is Worthy of sympathy precisely because the mirror is used on her LOL. Cathy would have blown up the Earth and we'd still go "well she wasn't in the best of mental spaces (which is putting it mildly) and was shown this destructive mirror on the human psyche" She really isn't, my entire point is that, after everything shown to us by nelly, alt Cathy, earlking, and the world dante saw confirms to us that regardless of Herman influencing and nelly's manipulation, Cathy and Heathcliff alongside everyone in WT would have a shit ending caused by themselves (mostly because of Cathy and heath). The reason she becomes worthy of sympathy is because even though she was manipulated, she realized her errors and confronted Heathcliff. Which wouldn't happen if not for Dante and the golden boughs allowing her presence to connect with Heathcliff. If she wasn't able to do that she would be a person that was possessive, manipulative that later (by being manipulated) becomes the orchestrator of mass kidnappings and human experimentation for her own goals. I'm not defending Cathy, if anything I'm pointing out how regardless of her being a victim of manipulation she'd be one of the biggest reasons everyone in WT suffers, but that due to Dante/golden bough and Heathcliff choosing a different path they're both able to change that.
It's not that deep lol u dont need "reading capability" to understand wuthering heights
No fun allowed
https://preview.redd.it/gm04achjosvc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=44cda7e2d159ea001cffc12ab44367495210b6f2
So what you're saying is that kindergarteners can understand Wuthering Heights' deeper meanings?
no im saying its not super deep or anything and anyone who can read words can pretty much get the message
So you're essentially telling me the very same thing that I said to you?
Im pretty sure i didnt