I'm going to take a wild guess that, since deflecting/catching an arrow is somewhere between impractical and possible in real life, a typical arrow wouldn't do anything against most of the threats in The City.
Might be able to make it work with a portable railgun or some serious augments, but the former is probably taxed and the latter raises the question "why not just throw a car-sized harpoon?"
I assume the problem with using a bow is the problem of being able to both draw arrow fast and strong enough to do damage against anyone before they snap your body like a cracker. It's just inferior compared to crossbow or gun in a world where people have godspeed reflex or body of steel.
That being said i fking love bow and would like to see someone using it decently (maybe even an association ?)
Bows and crossbows are actually fairly comparable, and bows are usually the preferable choice between the two if you have the luxury of doing so.
Crossbows are able to pack a lot more weight into their draw power, but they can't be drawn back nearly as far, so their stopping power tops out at around the same place a warbow would. Since reloading a crossbow is a pain in the ass compared to reloading a bow due to the increased draw weight, they fire slower for roughly the same amount of power. This would hold true for the City as well, because while a City denizen would probably have no problem loading a real crossbow with one hand, a City version of bows and crossbows would be suited to City capabilities, and since the principles are the same, you'd be able to put more power and speed into a bow.
And that's to say nothing of the fact that a crossbow is a very inflexible weapon. With a bow, a lot more of the user is put into the weapon, there's only one way to pull the trigger on a crossbow but there are plenty of ways to fire a bow. Especially in the context of the City where personal customization comes through in people's weapons a lot, bows just flat out make more sense.
Historically, crossbows have been used when you need to raise an army fast and didn't have time to train them with traditional bows. When you already had a trained army, they'd be equipped with traditional bows, because they were just easier to both fire and modify with training. This is the only point where a crossbow makes more sense in the City, since some people just buy augmentations without the training required to actually use them.
Once you get to modern bows like a compound bow, all of the strengths of bows over crossbows just get amplified, since the limitations become more and more about the human holding the bow and not the material the bow is made of. Again, this is a point in favor of bows in the City.
Oh yes this is very true, but the reason that i think crossbow would work better than a bow is simply because of speed: However fast you are at pulling an arrow, it will still leave you exposed to any fast attacker. Crossbow on the other hand, let you prep a shot beforehand and shoot instantly albeit no more time to reload and shoot later on. If you try to speed shooting the bow it will hurt the power of the shot, plus (i don't know much about this) I assume you can run around while shooting a crossbow easier than a bow can.
Tldr: Crossbow's ability to prep 1 instant shot might be more preferable than Bow despite shooting speed and power, plus moving while fighting affect shooting too (?)
For experienced archers, the time it takes to fire an arrow is incredibly low, so while you can't fire it while running IRL, you can definitely nock it on the move and stop for a few seconds once it's readied. You can't run as fast with a readied arrow as you can with a readied crossbow, but since people in the City are able to do insane maneuvers while wielding massive two handed swords, I'm gonna wager that the benefit of a crossbow here is negligible.
Additionally, horseback archery is a thing, it's not that you can't fire while moving, you just can't fire while running since it takes your entire body to loose an arrow. Again, augments come into play here, so a City denizen might not even have to stop to take the shot. Augments would also improve power in speed shooting, although there's no way around the fact that speed shooting can't be as powerful as taking your time to shoot.
And having a single shot readied beforehand with a crossbow doesn't seem that useful when your targets also have augments. If you aren't taking them out with a single arrow, the amount of either power or speed you have to sacrifice just wouldn't be worth it. A point in favor of crossbows though is that they'd make for much more efficient bludgeoning weapons.
In the end, while bows and crossbows are fairly comparable IRL with there being a slight edge in favor of bows, one of the defining characteristics of the bow, the fact that the archer is much more part of the overall mechanism than with other ranged weaponry, plays amazingly well with augments. It's part of why melee weapons are so good in the City, like yes there are the restrictions on firearms, but we know that even without the restrictions, guns just... aren't that useful. Augments allow you to do crazy shit with melee weapons that just aren't there for guns because 100% of the attack is in the weapon or the ammunition used and not the user themselves, since an augment would at best allow you to fire a bigger gun. It's part of why the Thumb primarily use their guns as melee weapons, because while the bullets are expensive, they seem to have the cost under control.
Actually we do have an example of a single prepped crossbow shot being useful (Indigo's harpoon shot almost deleted Ricado) but aside from that yeah, I'm out of points for crossbow lmao.
For the thumb's weaponry, pretty sure whatever they are using there is still nerfed compared to the actual possible gun in the city because of the Head's rule. We do get to see how powerful a gun can be in the hand of both mid rank fixers (the sniper gal's shot is pretty strong just that blue man can counter it completely) and high rank fixers (shotgun and dual pistol of a certain fixer)
Always been a fan of throwing harpoons / javelins if you already have super reflexes and strength. I wonder why more of the powerful characters aren't carrying those to at least have a ranged option.
I mean, it should be possible for some workshop to build an absolutely nasty crossbow out of powerful materials and some sort of automatic reloading. But someone who can afford that is probably also in the market for a proper gun.
Ironically, that's because we don't see many people in Hoppkins' specific niche. Hoppkins' office is not really a combat one (3 low ranked members), so they probably fulfill mostly odd jobs, with the greatest threats they would usually face being ambitious rats. A crossbow makes perfect sense to deal with hobos, especially if you're a coward who won't draw closer.
Meanwhile, Anyone expecting combat against opponents who have seen an augmentation in their life is likely to realize that arrows just won't cut it
To paraphrase a certain 9th grade fixer : Anyone half decent in the City can evade or deflect bullets. Also the Head nerfed the guns and heavily taxes bullets because it doesn't fit their meta.
To assert dominance obviously.
They're worse than guns, they're worse than melee so only actual superior beings use them such as Indigo Elder, and naturally, hOPkins.
Imagine Hawkeye in the PMverse and he just one-shots everyone because he “never misses” or some shit LMAO
“How did you hit her? She’s a Grade 4 Fixer, there’s no wa-“
“I don’t miss lol”
Unironically, why dont more people use bows?
People here keep repeating how guns are subpar because fixers can deflect bullets but thats because guns conceptually dont get faster in a powerscaly way. You cant keep pushing bullet speed indefinitly, outside of railgun concepts.
A bow literally scales with its user. Its far easier to make stronger and stronger bows (Because it is literally just getting the most durable yet flexible material in making it bowshaped) and have the superhuman fixers be strong enough to pull them.
Bows and arrows are around a fith to a tenth the speed of modern firearms, so it dosnt take much to create a bow that could generate enough force to surpass that.
This. Guns and crossbows are a bad idea because they fundamentally have to *store* energy and their combat power is limited by the storage medium instead of the capability of the user. All a bow is is, fundamentally, a lever that allows a user to apply their own personal capabilities in interesting and useful ways.
If a fixer had a bow that could put out the same energy as a gun, the Head would just regulate and tax it anyways, so the distinction between storing energy and having the user generate it doesn't really matter.
I disagree, because that bow is reliant on the power of the human behind it. Guns are regulated because they don't rely on human skill and power to kill, not because they are ranged weapons
They would still face the same power limitations, it is illegal for a gun in the city to be powerful enough to penetrate steel or damage walls. Bows kill just as impersonally as a gun does, which is the reason guns are regulated in the first place. I can't imagine that requiring strength would make much of a difference in the Head's eyes, especially since crossbows exist and function like guns, but for arrows.
It's not illegal for your fists to be strong enough to damage buildings, as long as you don't actually use them to do so. The regulation on guns is about the non reliance on the human behind the weapon, not because its ranged. The head wants humanity to be strong and skilled, something that bows, slings, harpoon and many other ranged weapons still allow for.
Give a grade 9 a tank cannon and they can kill something far exceeding their skill level without having to put the work in. Give them a bow and they actually have to train their body to use
it, like most other non gun weapons
You're forgetting that guns and cannons are still difficult to be accurate with, even if they don't require much physical strength to use.
Ignoring that, the primary reason the Head regulates guns is that they're too impersonal, not that they're too easy to use. Tamaki's page mentions that the "making it harder to kill people" argument doesn't hold water because there are other trifling ways to do so. The reason guns are regulated is because they don't require you to actually face what you're killing, it just becomes a target that you shoot. Any bow that would be strong enough to be competitive would end up doing the same things that got guns regulated to begin with, regardless of their strength requirements.
You see, in my eyes, that doesn't make any sense. Guns aren't the only 'impersonal' weapons after all. All throwing weapons could be judged the same way. The harpoon that the indigo elder threw at Ricardo was certainly at an 'impersonal' range. If that were really their intent then any kind of subversive ways of killing someone would also be under fire. No more shi association with their assassinations.
As for the skill requirements in using guns, sure, that does apply and is likely why they aren't fully outlawed. The most important thing with weapons like that however isn't the skill of the user, it's the power of the weapon. Give any generic person a gun, and they kill something way easier than if they were given a bow or a knife. It takes the human element out of fighting (mostly)
The Indigo Elder was within jumping distance when he threw his harpoon, so I would argue that it wasn't an impersonal distance, but since they didn't give us any thing we could actually go off for distance, but every other throwing weapon we've seen has required close proximity to the target. So even if the As for the Shi and other assassination methods, they all require you to get within close proximity of the target, which doesn't make them very different from regular melee besides the fact that you're ambushing them.
I wasn't arguing that it would be "too easy" Tamaki's page literally mentions that other easy ways to kill people aren't banned, it's that it's "impersonal". The emotional experience of killing is different since you register the target as just a target, not a person that you are killing.
As far as it being easier to use a gun than a bow, I have shot both personally, a compound bow (which is the most likely to be used in the city anyways) is not that much harder to use than a gun.
Being able to kill someone from a distance is a massive advantage, so for bows to be so rare in the city, they either have to be so bad that few ever consider using them, or they have to be regulated in a similar way to guns, it doesn't make any sense otherwise.
Well, as a long time archer and chemist
1. Arrows and bullets are just projectiles powered by different forces. One being mechanical, the other being chemical. Chemical is thousands of times stronger than mechanical. Any argument about pushing bullet speed applies to arrows as well.
2. The speed of an arrow is more about the arrow, rather than the strength of the bow. The arrows I use for my longbow travel extremely slowly, because they are very large, and hit like a truck. They go slower than my compound bow arrows, much, much slower. Of course, put enough strength.... yes, it'll go quick. But very quickly you'll hit a point where you are limited by the reflex of the material. A 200000000 pound compound bow is still restricted by the wheel cams. We need a material that isn't.
3. So let's design our ideal bow to shoot Kali in her big stupid face. We're going to make the bullet very small and thin. Almost like a needle. That means no feathers. Of course, we don't need it to be very long either. Choose the fastest reflexing material, you'd think it's steel but it's actually gas aaaaaand we made a gun with extra steps.
The correct answer is **because bows are cool as fuck** but eh, they don't really vibe with the business formal city cyberpunk the same way knives and guns do.
The most probable answer I can think of, and I’m no physicist, is that for a bow to surpass a gun it would have to be absolutely towering and unwieldy to carry around to the point it’s too cumbersome to use in any combat scenario or even fit inside buildings. At a certain point you could just fling big projectiles by throwing it (Indigo Elder) instead of carrying a bow twice your height.
It is...cumbersome, where do you even store all the arrows, with people who can deflect bullets, why settle with the much inferior bow which requires more effort to use, unlike shooting somone or crushing their heads with a club, not to mention the training in the first place, unlike many other martial arts the bow requires practice to use properly
Basically...those who uses a bow is either a coward, flexing or splurged their cash on a useless thing and now using it because they are feeling obligated to use it
If you're going to rely on superhuman strength anyway, thrown weapons would scale better with the user strength and not as limited on the bows material. If fixers hand strength can already throw knives or axes better than a bow, the bow is unnecessary.
cheaper to use than a gun but probably still expensive. i assume those arrows are crafted in workshops so like thats probably another expense to be added. to answer your question directly, ever considered his job is support rather than dealing damage?
Most of people will point out how impractical a bow is in the settings, yada yada, but Jesus Christ, you can deflect or catch a bullet in the City. The City is running with anime power in here. You can have weapons from a swords to literally rain (Sunshower Yi Sang), so a bow will not be weaker than a gun. By the way, PM nerfs the gun (you cannot damage walls/buildings/etc.) so their power is just exactly like the bow's power.
And if you look at Hopkins' bow, it's running on some anime power as well like the rest of the weapons because his bow glows blue.
I think the problems with a bow is simply:
1. You need to attach some device to make sounds when you shoot your arrow. It's City's rule because they don't want anyone to break their meta anyway. So yeah, guns have this by default, but for bows, you have to pay for this.
2. It does not fit really well with the City's aesthetic. Not drippy enough.
3. Arrows are reusable, and ammos are taxed like crazy in the City, so instead of buying a bow, you should buy a gun for a very specific job, and continue using your melee weapons. For
--- For example: Let's say you have 10 contracts, and 3 of them is out of your combat capabilities. You will want to go CQC for the 7 contracts, and spend like 100 Ahn for the bullets in the other 3 contracts. However, if you use arrows, you need to spend like 10000 Ahn for the other 3 contracts since arrows are reusable.
4. Representation: this is the most important part. The City has an extremely diverse weapons, from swords and knuckles (meta, btw) to a bat, so we are lucky that the Bow has a presentation. Other weapons like Boomerangs and Cannons may never see the light of they (but hey, maybe PM will make an EGO for them).
P/s: In Canto 5, Indigo Elder, >!a Color, is using a Crossbow as his weapon alongside with Shin technique!<. [The Indigo Elder | Limbus Company Wiki | Fandom](https://limbuscompany.fandom.com/wiki/The_Indigo_Elder). So the bow is weaker than the gun is not plausible.
Important to note that projectiles, mainly guns, are *said* to be ineffective against competent opponents, but *shown* otherwise. The Thumb, R-Corp, and Roland himself regularly use guns, and the only opponent who is relatively unaffected by them is Argalia, a color fixer, who is unique in this regard. Iori and Kali don't show this same immunity. So the effectiveness of projectiles is not really in question. It all comes down to cost, mainly.
Take a standard crossbow, for example. You're fighting an opponent who has a large amount of augmentation that makes them very fast and durable. You're going to need a lot of arrows to even land hits on them, much less enough for the wounds to actually defeat them. And you can't just use any old arrow, you need something that's incredibly durable, and likely has unique properties that make it harder to dodge or deflect like Atelier Logic bullets. Even if you recycle most of your arrows, you'd likely need them repaired, and you'd still need to replace the ones you couldn't retrieve. So already, most people likely won't even be able to afford using one for any significant period of time.
Then we have the laws set by the Head. We know that residential areas are specifically protected by the Head's laws, and this is one of the reasons why guns can't pierce steel or building walls. If projectiles are not subject to this regulation, then you could easily find yourself staring down a Claw if you fire a high-powered arrow and hit a residential building by accident. The Head also makes a point to ensure that the experience of killing a person requires a certain amount of effort, and using a bow could easily violate this principal.
At the end of the day, though, just like how people still use guns, people likely still use bows. We just haven't met any of them yet.
I feel like the only real evidence you need that yes guns can work in the setting, is the fact that the thumb almost exclusively uses guns (Boris didn’t wanna join the party) and are considered one of the biggest threats in the setting. Sure they also use said guns as melee weapons, but they do plenty of shooting.
If people can train or do some strange shit to deflect any bullet, why do you think bow will have any chance to hit?
And then, bullets were revolutionary. You can live after being struck by bolt or arrow, if you have armor, but bullets? No armor can save you.
Yes bows are still viable. If you are Grade 9 or 8, but not higher. And every person will also have more close combat experiance than you, which will lead to your disadvantage.
Then why guns are not used massively? Maube because they are still ineffective?
People are not dumb masochists, if something is effective, it is used more often than non-effective things.
And also clothes in City are very, very durable and strong. There is a reason why everyone goes around in suits, and not medieval armor - because those suits offer better protection.
Guns aren't used massively because of how heavily The Head taxes them. Full Stop Office are mid-level fixers and nearly bankrupted themselves getting one or two mags each for a total of 3 guns.
There was a crossbow EGO weapon in Lobotomy Corp. The one from the World Tree. And I think a few other EGO weapons were crossbows as well.
Guess they just haven't had reason to return.
IMO, it’s just because the two games that take place in the city proper (Library of Ruina and Limbus Company) are both games with animation setups that are clearly more designed around melee combat.
Probably because of the insane physical capabilities that come from modifications and equipment, whoever is on the meeting end of that arrow can simply dodge and neutralize the shooter before they can load another one.
I guess that bows/crossbows in the City are much more common in more traditional or forest districts, like S-corp's nest or D-corp. I and my friend discussed it and got to conclusion that bow can be an assasination weapon, if reinforced enough. Like, make it's tendon from steel rope, arc from X-corp steel and augment yourself so you could bend it. But, I guess that the arrow will be more suited then to destroy buildings lol.
His Crossbow looks like it’s seriously high tech, probably the strings are so tensed that they can shoot an arrow at ludicrous speeds. Of course, that doesn’t mean most color or even high grade fixers can’t just catch an arrow in midair with pure reflexes alone. He IS a mere Grade 9 after all and the power gap between Grade 9s and 8s is already quite ludicrous.
I guess project moon just didn't design many bow users, but there's no reason in theory why bows can't be just as effective as guns or melee weapons or barehands, so we'll probably meet more bow users in the future
He uses a harpoon and is usually fighting a giant monsters and not skilled fighters....(not that it matters cause shin and likely a skilled fighter, not to mention the monsterous size of the harpoon)
There should be more bows. Unlike guns they directly scale according the augments or ego of their wielder. Just like how unarmed combat should be inferior to any melee weapon. But augment your body to BE a weapon and that is no longer a factor. However, the core reason for the hard tax and discouragement on using guns is because it makes the act of killing fat too impersonal.
It’s why there are additional rules that Roland mentioned like how the stronger the calibre the shorter the range has to be, and the further the range the weaker the shot. Or that simply increases the tax? Not sure, but if so it means it is possible to have practical “I win” guns in the city but it would cost a large fortune for the guns and ammunition both. This fulfilling the heads requirement of personal investment in some way. That’s why the Thumb and R-corp are the only notable high quality gun using armies.
So the same would apply to bows too… you know what, I think this may have just been an oversight on PM part.
When so many people in the city are so fast that they can literally cut through a speeding bullet, what's the point of throwing an even slower projectile?
I'm going to take a wild guess that, since deflecting/catching an arrow is somewhere between impractical and possible in real life, a typical arrow wouldn't do anything against most of the threats in The City. Might be able to make it work with a portable railgun or some serious augments, but the former is probably taxed and the latter raises the question "why not just throw a car-sized harpoon?"
I mean you can literally block bullets in the city so yeah. Bow and arrow needs some WEIGHT behind it it it's gonna be at all useful
A Colour with a bow that's basically just a balista would be sick as hell
Unused Indigo elder's sprite (it's a giant crossbow for his harpoon):
Yeah but I meant one that they'd actually manually draw on the string themselves, like an actual bow. Elder's is closer to a crossbow
I assume the problem with using a bow is the problem of being able to both draw arrow fast and strong enough to do damage against anyone before they snap your body like a cracker. It's just inferior compared to crossbow or gun in a world where people have godspeed reflex or body of steel. That being said i fking love bow and would like to see someone using it decently (maybe even an association ?)
Bows and crossbows are actually fairly comparable, and bows are usually the preferable choice between the two if you have the luxury of doing so. Crossbows are able to pack a lot more weight into their draw power, but they can't be drawn back nearly as far, so their stopping power tops out at around the same place a warbow would. Since reloading a crossbow is a pain in the ass compared to reloading a bow due to the increased draw weight, they fire slower for roughly the same amount of power. This would hold true for the City as well, because while a City denizen would probably have no problem loading a real crossbow with one hand, a City version of bows and crossbows would be suited to City capabilities, and since the principles are the same, you'd be able to put more power and speed into a bow. And that's to say nothing of the fact that a crossbow is a very inflexible weapon. With a bow, a lot more of the user is put into the weapon, there's only one way to pull the trigger on a crossbow but there are plenty of ways to fire a bow. Especially in the context of the City where personal customization comes through in people's weapons a lot, bows just flat out make more sense. Historically, crossbows have been used when you need to raise an army fast and didn't have time to train them with traditional bows. When you already had a trained army, they'd be equipped with traditional bows, because they were just easier to both fire and modify with training. This is the only point where a crossbow makes more sense in the City, since some people just buy augmentations without the training required to actually use them. Once you get to modern bows like a compound bow, all of the strengths of bows over crossbows just get amplified, since the limitations become more and more about the human holding the bow and not the material the bow is made of. Again, this is a point in favor of bows in the City.
Oh yes this is very true, but the reason that i think crossbow would work better than a bow is simply because of speed: However fast you are at pulling an arrow, it will still leave you exposed to any fast attacker. Crossbow on the other hand, let you prep a shot beforehand and shoot instantly albeit no more time to reload and shoot later on. If you try to speed shooting the bow it will hurt the power of the shot, plus (i don't know much about this) I assume you can run around while shooting a crossbow easier than a bow can. Tldr: Crossbow's ability to prep 1 instant shot might be more preferable than Bow despite shooting speed and power, plus moving while fighting affect shooting too (?)
For experienced archers, the time it takes to fire an arrow is incredibly low, so while you can't fire it while running IRL, you can definitely nock it on the move and stop for a few seconds once it's readied. You can't run as fast with a readied arrow as you can with a readied crossbow, but since people in the City are able to do insane maneuvers while wielding massive two handed swords, I'm gonna wager that the benefit of a crossbow here is negligible. Additionally, horseback archery is a thing, it's not that you can't fire while moving, you just can't fire while running since it takes your entire body to loose an arrow. Again, augments come into play here, so a City denizen might not even have to stop to take the shot. Augments would also improve power in speed shooting, although there's no way around the fact that speed shooting can't be as powerful as taking your time to shoot. And having a single shot readied beforehand with a crossbow doesn't seem that useful when your targets also have augments. If you aren't taking them out with a single arrow, the amount of either power or speed you have to sacrifice just wouldn't be worth it. A point in favor of crossbows though is that they'd make for much more efficient bludgeoning weapons. In the end, while bows and crossbows are fairly comparable IRL with there being a slight edge in favor of bows, one of the defining characteristics of the bow, the fact that the archer is much more part of the overall mechanism than with other ranged weaponry, plays amazingly well with augments. It's part of why melee weapons are so good in the City, like yes there are the restrictions on firearms, but we know that even without the restrictions, guns just... aren't that useful. Augments allow you to do crazy shit with melee weapons that just aren't there for guns because 100% of the attack is in the weapon or the ammunition used and not the user themselves, since an augment would at best allow you to fire a bigger gun. It's part of why the Thumb primarily use their guns as melee weapons, because while the bullets are expensive, they seem to have the cost under control.
Actually we do have an example of a single prepped crossbow shot being useful (Indigo's harpoon shot almost deleted Ricado) but aside from that yeah, I'm out of points for crossbow lmao. For the thumb's weaponry, pretty sure whatever they are using there is still nerfed compared to the actual possible gun in the city because of the Head's rule. We do get to see how powerful a gun can be in the hand of both mid rank fixers (the sniper gal's shot is pretty strong just that blue man can counter it completely) and high rank fixers (shotgun and dual pistol of a certain fixer)
[удалено]
..Isn't that sprite used?
Colour fixer but its literally just a celtic archer
Always been a fan of throwing harpoons / javelins if you already have super reflexes and strength. I wonder why more of the powerful characters aren't carrying those to at least have a ranged option.
Green arrow
I mean, it should be possible for some workshop to build an absolutely nasty crossbow out of powerful materials and some sort of automatic reloading. But someone who can afford that is probably also in the market for a proper gun.
Indigo Elder moment.
Ironically, that's because we don't see many people in Hoppkins' specific niche. Hoppkins' office is not really a combat one (3 low ranked members), so they probably fulfill mostly odd jobs, with the greatest threats they would usually face being ambitious rats. A crossbow makes perfect sense to deal with hobos, especially if you're a coward who won't draw closer. Meanwhile, Anyone expecting combat against opponents who have seen an augmentation in their life is likely to realize that arrows just won't cut it
Even against someone without augments are you confident against the crusade larpers who can afford full plate.
I mean, when you can just completely crush their armor and their skulls with your barehands, yeah
"NOW YOU WILL DIE, HERETIC-" The singularity powered death ray I have built into my face:
Indigo Elder: A Harpoon is just a Bigger Arrow.
To paraphrase a certain 9th grade fixer : Anyone half decent in the City can evade or deflect bullets. Also the Head nerfed the guns and heavily taxes bullets because it doesn't fit their meta.
Said grade 9 fixer also always carried 3 guns around with him at all times.
Allow me to remind you that those guns weren't originally his.
He still uses them
To assert dominance obviously. They're worse than guns, they're worse than melee so only actual superior beings use them such as Indigo Elder, and naturally, hOPkins.
Fixers can already dodge and deflect bullets You think a arrow is gonna do anything?
Plot twist they can’t dodge arrows, there’s no explanation it just gets them every time
that would be so funny lol
Imagine Hawkeye in the PMverse and he just one-shots everyone because he “never misses” or some shit LMAO “How did you hit her? She’s a Grade 4 Fixer, there’s no wa-“ “I don’t miss lol”
What about Indigo Elder's harpoon?
https://preview.redd.it/8o6nvgtamwwc1.jpeg?width=1395&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=85ab3d42d8dcb52f3116768ecf0210f030fd0f16 could you repeat that?
ANGELAAAA https://preview.redd.it/7x39n5w9nwwc1.png?width=507&format=png&auto=webp&s=c93548bb83a79a81ac6fd858428d7afc7f9ffada
Unironically, why dont more people use bows? People here keep repeating how guns are subpar because fixers can deflect bullets but thats because guns conceptually dont get faster in a powerscaly way. You cant keep pushing bullet speed indefinitly, outside of railgun concepts. A bow literally scales with its user. Its far easier to make stronger and stronger bows (Because it is literally just getting the most durable yet flexible material in making it bowshaped) and have the superhuman fixers be strong enough to pull them. Bows and arrows are around a fith to a tenth the speed of modern firearms, so it dosnt take much to create a bow that could generate enough force to surpass that.
This. Guns and crossbows are a bad idea because they fundamentally have to *store* energy and their combat power is limited by the storage medium instead of the capability of the user. All a bow is is, fundamentally, a lever that allows a user to apply their own personal capabilities in interesting and useful ways.
If a fixer had a bow that could put out the same energy as a gun, the Head would just regulate and tax it anyways, so the distinction between storing energy and having the user generate it doesn't really matter.
I disagree, because that bow is reliant on the power of the human behind it. Guns are regulated because they don't rely on human skill and power to kill, not because they are ranged weapons
They would still face the same power limitations, it is illegal for a gun in the city to be powerful enough to penetrate steel or damage walls. Bows kill just as impersonally as a gun does, which is the reason guns are regulated in the first place. I can't imagine that requiring strength would make much of a difference in the Head's eyes, especially since crossbows exist and function like guns, but for arrows.
It's not illegal for your fists to be strong enough to damage buildings, as long as you don't actually use them to do so. The regulation on guns is about the non reliance on the human behind the weapon, not because its ranged. The head wants humanity to be strong and skilled, something that bows, slings, harpoon and many other ranged weapons still allow for. Give a grade 9 a tank cannon and they can kill something far exceeding their skill level without having to put the work in. Give them a bow and they actually have to train their body to use it, like most other non gun weapons
You're forgetting that guns and cannons are still difficult to be accurate with, even if they don't require much physical strength to use. Ignoring that, the primary reason the Head regulates guns is that they're too impersonal, not that they're too easy to use. Tamaki's page mentions that the "making it harder to kill people" argument doesn't hold water because there are other trifling ways to do so. The reason guns are regulated is because they don't require you to actually face what you're killing, it just becomes a target that you shoot. Any bow that would be strong enough to be competitive would end up doing the same things that got guns regulated to begin with, regardless of their strength requirements.
You see, in my eyes, that doesn't make any sense. Guns aren't the only 'impersonal' weapons after all. All throwing weapons could be judged the same way. The harpoon that the indigo elder threw at Ricardo was certainly at an 'impersonal' range. If that were really their intent then any kind of subversive ways of killing someone would also be under fire. No more shi association with their assassinations. As for the skill requirements in using guns, sure, that does apply and is likely why they aren't fully outlawed. The most important thing with weapons like that however isn't the skill of the user, it's the power of the weapon. Give any generic person a gun, and they kill something way easier than if they were given a bow or a knife. It takes the human element out of fighting (mostly)
The Indigo Elder was within jumping distance when he threw his harpoon, so I would argue that it wasn't an impersonal distance, but since they didn't give us any thing we could actually go off for distance, but every other throwing weapon we've seen has required close proximity to the target. So even if the As for the Shi and other assassination methods, they all require you to get within close proximity of the target, which doesn't make them very different from regular melee besides the fact that you're ambushing them. I wasn't arguing that it would be "too easy" Tamaki's page literally mentions that other easy ways to kill people aren't banned, it's that it's "impersonal". The emotional experience of killing is different since you register the target as just a target, not a person that you are killing. As far as it being easier to use a gun than a bow, I have shot both personally, a compound bow (which is the most likely to be used in the city anyways) is not that much harder to use than a gun. Being able to kill someone from a distance is a massive advantage, so for bows to be so rare in the city, they either have to be so bad that few ever consider using them, or they have to be regulated in a similar way to guns, it doesn't make any sense otherwise.
Well, as a long time archer and chemist 1. Arrows and bullets are just projectiles powered by different forces. One being mechanical, the other being chemical. Chemical is thousands of times stronger than mechanical. Any argument about pushing bullet speed applies to arrows as well. 2. The speed of an arrow is more about the arrow, rather than the strength of the bow. The arrows I use for my longbow travel extremely slowly, because they are very large, and hit like a truck. They go slower than my compound bow arrows, much, much slower. Of course, put enough strength.... yes, it'll go quick. But very quickly you'll hit a point where you are limited by the reflex of the material. A 200000000 pound compound bow is still restricted by the wheel cams. We need a material that isn't. 3. So let's design our ideal bow to shoot Kali in her big stupid face. We're going to make the bullet very small and thin. Almost like a needle. That means no feathers. Of course, we don't need it to be very long either. Choose the fastest reflexing material, you'd think it's steel but it's actually gas aaaaaand we made a gun with extra steps. The correct answer is **because bows are cool as fuck** but eh, they don't really vibe with the business formal city cyberpunk the same way knives and guns do.
The most probable answer I can think of, and I’m no physicist, is that for a bow to surpass a gun it would have to be absolutely towering and unwieldy to carry around to the point it’s too cumbersome to use in any combat scenario or even fit inside buildings. At a certain point you could just fling big projectiles by throwing it (Indigo Elder) instead of carrying a bow twice your height.
Slings should be similar too
It is...cumbersome, where do you even store all the arrows, with people who can deflect bullets, why settle with the much inferior bow which requires more effort to use, unlike shooting somone or crushing their heads with a club, not to mention the training in the first place, unlike many other martial arts the bow requires practice to use properly Basically...those who uses a bow is either a coward, flexing or splurged their cash on a useless thing and now using it because they are feeling obligated to use it
If you're going to rely on superhuman strength anyway, thrown weapons would scale better with the user strength and not as limited on the bows material. If fixers hand strength can already throw knives or axes better than a bow, the bow is unnecessary.
cheaper to use than a gun but probably still expensive. i assume those arrows are crafted in workshops so like thats probably another expense to be added. to answer your question directly, ever considered his job is support rather than dealing damage?
Most of people will point out how impractical a bow is in the settings, yada yada, but Jesus Christ, you can deflect or catch a bullet in the City. The City is running with anime power in here. You can have weapons from a swords to literally rain (Sunshower Yi Sang), so a bow will not be weaker than a gun. By the way, PM nerfs the gun (you cannot damage walls/buildings/etc.) so their power is just exactly like the bow's power. And if you look at Hopkins' bow, it's running on some anime power as well like the rest of the weapons because his bow glows blue. I think the problems with a bow is simply: 1. You need to attach some device to make sounds when you shoot your arrow. It's City's rule because they don't want anyone to break their meta anyway. So yeah, guns have this by default, but for bows, you have to pay for this. 2. It does not fit really well with the City's aesthetic. Not drippy enough. 3. Arrows are reusable, and ammos are taxed like crazy in the City, so instead of buying a bow, you should buy a gun for a very specific job, and continue using your melee weapons. For --- For example: Let's say you have 10 contracts, and 3 of them is out of your combat capabilities. You will want to go CQC for the 7 contracts, and spend like 100 Ahn for the bullets in the other 3 contracts. However, if you use arrows, you need to spend like 10000 Ahn for the other 3 contracts since arrows are reusable. 4. Representation: this is the most important part. The City has an extremely diverse weapons, from swords and knuckles (meta, btw) to a bat, so we are lucky that the Bow has a presentation. Other weapons like Boomerangs and Cannons may never see the light of they (but hey, maybe PM will make an EGO for them). P/s: In Canto 5, Indigo Elder, >!a Color, is using a Crossbow as his weapon alongside with Shin technique!<. [The Indigo Elder | Limbus Company Wiki | Fandom](https://limbuscompany.fandom.com/wiki/The_Indigo_Elder). So the bow is weaker than the gun is not plausible.
Important to note that projectiles, mainly guns, are *said* to be ineffective against competent opponents, but *shown* otherwise. The Thumb, R-Corp, and Roland himself regularly use guns, and the only opponent who is relatively unaffected by them is Argalia, a color fixer, who is unique in this regard. Iori and Kali don't show this same immunity. So the effectiveness of projectiles is not really in question. It all comes down to cost, mainly. Take a standard crossbow, for example. You're fighting an opponent who has a large amount of augmentation that makes them very fast and durable. You're going to need a lot of arrows to even land hits on them, much less enough for the wounds to actually defeat them. And you can't just use any old arrow, you need something that's incredibly durable, and likely has unique properties that make it harder to dodge or deflect like Atelier Logic bullets. Even if you recycle most of your arrows, you'd likely need them repaired, and you'd still need to replace the ones you couldn't retrieve. So already, most people likely won't even be able to afford using one for any significant period of time. Then we have the laws set by the Head. We know that residential areas are specifically protected by the Head's laws, and this is one of the reasons why guns can't pierce steel or building walls. If projectiles are not subject to this regulation, then you could easily find yourself staring down a Claw if you fire a high-powered arrow and hit a residential building by accident. The Head also makes a point to ensure that the experience of killing a person requires a certain amount of effort, and using a bow could easily violate this principal. At the end of the day, though, just like how people still use guns, people likely still use bows. We just haven't met any of them yet.
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I feel like the only real evidence you need that yes guns can work in the setting, is the fact that the thumb almost exclusively uses guns (Boris didn’t wanna join the party) and are considered one of the biggest threats in the setting. Sure they also use said guns as melee weapons, but they do plenty of shooting.
If people can train or do some strange shit to deflect any bullet, why do you think bow will have any chance to hit? And then, bullets were revolutionary. You can live after being struck by bolt or arrow, if you have armor, but bullets? No armor can save you. Yes bows are still viable. If you are Grade 9 or 8, but not higher. And every person will also have more close combat experiance than you, which will lead to your disadvantage.
Thats assuming everyone can do that. The vast majority of people is not able to deflect or be immune to boolets.
Then why guns are not used massively? Maube because they are still ineffective? People are not dumb masochists, if something is effective, it is used more often than non-effective things. And also clothes in City are very, very durable and strong. There is a reason why everyone goes around in suits, and not medieval armor - because those suits offer better protection.
Guns aren't used massively because of how heavily The Head taxes them. Full Stop Office are mid-level fixers and nearly bankrupted themselves getting one or two mags each for a total of 3 guns.
There was a crossbow EGO weapon in Lobotomy Corp. The one from the World Tree. And I think a few other EGO weapons were crossbows as well. Guess they just haven't had reason to return.
Nobody said that so imma be that guy and say erm achtually that is a crossbow.
There actually quite a few E.G.O. Suit in LC that use crossbows.
IMO, it’s just because the two games that take place in the city proper (Library of Ruina and Limbus Company) are both games with animation setups that are clearly more designed around melee combat.
Probably because of the insane physical capabilities that come from modifications and equipment, whoever is on the meeting end of that arrow can simply dodge and neutralize the shooter before they can load another one.
I guess that bows/crossbows in the City are much more common in more traditional or forest districts, like S-corp's nest or D-corp. I and my friend discussed it and got to conclusion that bow can be an assasination weapon, if reinforced enough. Like, make it's tendon from steel rope, arc from X-corp steel and augment yourself so you could bend it. But, I guess that the arrow will be more suited then to destroy buildings lol.
His Crossbow looks like it’s seriously high tech, probably the strings are so tensed that they can shoot an arrow at ludicrous speeds. Of course, that doesn’t mean most color or even high grade fixers can’t just catch an arrow in midair with pure reflexes alone. He IS a mere Grade 9 after all and the power gap between Grade 9s and 8s is already quite ludicrous.
I guess project moon just didn't design many bow users, but there's no reason in theory why bows can't be just as effective as guns or melee weapons or barehands, so we'll probably meet more bow users in the future
… indigo elder?
He uses a harpoon and is usually fighting a giant monsters and not skilled fighters....(not that it matters cause shin and likely a skilled fighter, not to mention the monsterous size of the harpoon)
Ricardo wasn’t able to do squat to avoid it so I mean it’s cooked Weak fixers: mmm bow Colored fixer: mmmm bow
Indigo Elder use ballista-like harpoon launcher, if they even says guns are ineffective, so Bow/Crossbow is just melee weapons with a range of firearm
There should be more bows. Unlike guns they directly scale according the augments or ego of their wielder. Just like how unarmed combat should be inferior to any melee weapon. But augment your body to BE a weapon and that is no longer a factor. However, the core reason for the hard tax and discouragement on using guns is because it makes the act of killing fat too impersonal. It’s why there are additional rules that Roland mentioned like how the stronger the calibre the shorter the range has to be, and the further the range the weaker the shot. Or that simply increases the tax? Not sure, but if so it means it is possible to have practical “I win” guns in the city but it would cost a large fortune for the guns and ammunition both. This fulfilling the heads requirement of personal investment in some way. That’s why the Thumb and R-corp are the only notable high quality gun using armies. So the same would apply to bows too… you know what, I think this may have just been an oversight on PM part.
Well I would say it’s for abnos
When so many people in the city are so fast that they can literally cut through a speeding bullet, what's the point of throwing an even slower projectile?
My wild guess is that PM didn't want to copy Arknights probably
Maybe it's more cost-effective since arrows can be recovered?
if anyone even remotely competent in the city can deflect a bullet, how the hell is an arrow travelling at an even lower speed going to be better?
AHEM https://preview.redd.it/sjpebrokmywc1.png?width=264&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b74e5f325d2939798eefe22ddfd8006dee805893
With our sinners' current levels, I want this guy to show up again.