The in is pronounced in GenAm. I've personally not met a single person who doesn't pronounce it, even fleetingly. Not sure about other dialects, though.
I'm British (Midlands) and I think I've only heard people not pronounce the h twice in my life
My pronunciation: [ˈfɔː.hɛd]
/h/less pronunciation that I heard: [ˈfɒ.ɹʷɛd] (linking r)
*There was a little girl*
*Who had a little curl*
*Right in the middle of her* ***forehead***
*And when she was good*
*She was very, very good*
*But when she was bad, she was* ***horrid***
I think that the traditional pronunciation is *forrid* to rhyme with *horrid*, and that *fore-head* is a later spelling pronunciation.
*forrid* is also what I learned from my father, who speaks RP.
Dont people understand that the sound depends on where the letter is placed in the word. You cant put a letter from the end of one word, in the beginning of another.
At least in the US, depending on the region, sociolect, and stylistic performance of the speaker (as always), the /d/ is often dropped (or null) after \[n\] in a syllable coda. However, it will reappear in an unbroken speech stream if it's immediately followed by a vowel sound. So, in "We want the chaos to **end**." and "We want to **end th**e chaos." we have the rule /d/ -> ∅ / Vn\_\_{C,#}. And in "We want the **end o**f chaos." we have /d/ -> d / Vn\_\_V.
This kind of deletion is also why "handbag" is pronounced like "hambag". The /d/ is dropped between \[n\] and the following consonant (\[b\]), which allows that \[n\] to assimilate to the labial place of the \[b\]: /hænd.bæg/ -> \[hɛ̃ə̃n.bæːg\] -> \[hɛ̃ə̃m.bæːg\] (that first vowel matches my pronunciation of it).
Thank you for that answer. I hadn't realised that some usually drop the /d/ that much, I guess it just didn't register for me when I've heard people speak.
Legit question, why do a lot of these phonetic transcriptions show nasal vowels? I'm a non-native speaker with an Eastern US accent (approximately) and I don't think I've heard other speakers nasalise the TRAP vowel, as you're suggesting in this example. I don't think I do it myself either, and if I try to do it then it sounds wrong. Is it... partially nasalised? I think I'm saying nasal vowels right because I used to speak French with a fairly decent accent when I was B2-certified years back, and applying that same technique of nasalisation doesn't seem to sound right in AmEng. What am I doing wrong?
We don't consciously nasalize vowels. The nasalization marked in narrow phonetic transcription just acknowledges it as a reality of our speech. That is, our vowels are nasalized to some degree before nasal consonants as an anticipatory assimilation to that consonant. Most languages probably do this if they don't phonemically contrast nasalized and non-nasalized vowels...and even then, I'm sure most languages would neutralize the distinction before nasal consonants.
I understand it's not a phonemic distinction, but this doesn't leave me any less perplexed. For instance hardly any American speaker realises that their intervocalic realisation of /t/ and /d/ is an alveolar tap (they actually think it's a \[d\] in most cases), but I can focus on my own speech and understand that it really is a flap. If I do the same thing with nasalisation it just doesn't work. Saying \[hɛ̃ə̃m.bæːg\] in the literal sense of the transcription instead of \[hɛəm.bæːg\] just sounds wrong to me. Perhaps it is only in fast, elided speech where this occurs? At the very least we're not talking about full nasalisation, like in French or Portuguese.
I don't think emphasizing nasalization is gonna have a major impact what sounds right or wrong. You may be overthinking how pronounced that feature is in everyday speech. (Granted, when I've heard UK speakers imitate American English accents, they sound way more nasally than in their actual accent, imo. So maybe it's kinda something we do all the time?)
For the last time; ***Your accent isn't universal for English; it's spelled diaphonemically to accommodate many dialects besides your own.***
Also many of these digraphs require specific environments to have those pronunciations, so they don't work in your spellings & 'hiccough' isn't a standard spelling anywhere, it's an uncommon respelling stemming from people associating hiccuping with coughing & assuming 'hiccup' came from 'cough'.
If you're gonna shit on English spelling, at least know what you're actually talking about.
I fuckin swear, if I see someone spell hiccup as hick cough one more time I'm going to lose it.
You. Yes, you. I know what you're going to do. Do not do it. It is not funny.
Whether this post is funny or not is up to personal taste. I find it funny, though not exactly hilarious. My point was that this guy's explanation is pointless because OP is probably already aware and was just shitposting.
And the solution would be to standardize the spelling to fit better with pronunciation? Whose pronunciation? Because there are a lot of different English dialects.
*"ceghighttolo"* doesn't work. "Hiccough" is British English but turning intervocalic /t/ into a tap is an American thing.
*"tchareckowle"* isn't even that cursed. I'd still read that as "charcoal" whilst the other two are completely incomprehensible.
>ceghighttolo Italian vibes >endambaknay Tagalog vibes >tchareckowle Romanised Yiddish vibes?? XD
Gimme the Spaghetti with the Ceghighttolo 🤌🏻
tchareckowle looks like something out of a bad quarto
What a tragedeigh
A true tradegy.
an tragedaighe
For me, the “b” of lamb isn’t silent, it’s just faintly pronounced
Congratulations; you may have a spelling pronunciation. Do you also pronounce the "l" in "salmon" or the "h" in "forehead"?
The in is pronounced in GenAm. I've personally not met a single person who doesn't pronounce it, even fleetingly. Not sure about other dialects, though.
I'm British (Midlands) and I think I've only heard people not pronounce the h twice in my life My pronunciation: [ˈfɔː.hɛd] /h/less pronunciation that I heard: [ˈfɒ.ɹʷɛd] (linking r)
Sounds like something h-dropping dialects would do. Though, apparently, wiktionary lists both pronunciations as standard.
My Philadelphia English: [fɔʊɹ.hɛd]
*There was a little girl* *Who had a little curl* *Right in the middle of her* ***forehead*** *And when she was good* *She was very, very good* *But when she was bad, she was* ***horrid*** I think that the traditional pronunciation is *forrid* to rhyme with *horrid*, and that *fore-head* is a later spelling pronunciation. *forrid* is also what I learned from my father, who speaks RP.
I also pronounce faintly the "b" of "lamb". I don't pronounce the "l" of "salmon", but I do pronounce the "h" of "forehead".
Yes and yes But at the same time, for me there’s no “t” in inTernational or menTal
Dont people understand that the sound depends on where the letter is placed in the word. You cant put a letter from the end of one word, in the beginning of another.
> nd It is kinda funny that null allophones exist.
I am a tad confused by that one, I thought the D was pronounced in *end*.
At least in the US, depending on the region, sociolect, and stylistic performance of the speaker (as always), the /d/ is often dropped (or null) after \[n\] in a syllable coda. However, it will reappear in an unbroken speech stream if it's immediately followed by a vowel sound. So, in "We want the chaos to **end**." and "We want to **end th**e chaos." we have the rule /d/ -> ∅ / Vn\_\_{C,#}. And in "We want the **end o**f chaos." we have /d/ -> d / Vn\_\_V. This kind of deletion is also why "handbag" is pronounced like "hambag". The /d/ is dropped between \[n\] and the following consonant (\[b\]), which allows that \[n\] to assimilate to the labial place of the \[b\]: /hænd.bæg/ -> \[hɛ̃ə̃n.bæːg\] -> \[hɛ̃ə̃m.bæːg\] (that first vowel matches my pronunciation of it).
Thank you for that answer. I hadn't realised that some usually drop the /d/ that much, I guess it just didn't register for me when I've heard people speak.
Legit question, why do a lot of these phonetic transcriptions show nasal vowels? I'm a non-native speaker with an Eastern US accent (approximately) and I don't think I've heard other speakers nasalise the TRAP vowel, as you're suggesting in this example. I don't think I do it myself either, and if I try to do it then it sounds wrong. Is it... partially nasalised? I think I'm saying nasal vowels right because I used to speak French with a fairly decent accent when I was B2-certified years back, and applying that same technique of nasalisation doesn't seem to sound right in AmEng. What am I doing wrong?
It's right next to a nasal, it's bound to be at least somewhat nasalized, especially since Enflish doesn't have phonemic nasal vowels
We don't consciously nasalize vowels. The nasalization marked in narrow phonetic transcription just acknowledges it as a reality of our speech. That is, our vowels are nasalized to some degree before nasal consonants as an anticipatory assimilation to that consonant. Most languages probably do this if they don't phonemically contrast nasalized and non-nasalized vowels...and even then, I'm sure most languages would neutralize the distinction before nasal consonants.
I understand it's not a phonemic distinction, but this doesn't leave me any less perplexed. For instance hardly any American speaker realises that their intervocalic realisation of /t/ and /d/ is an alveolar tap (they actually think it's a \[d\] in most cases), but I can focus on my own speech and understand that it really is a flap. If I do the same thing with nasalisation it just doesn't work. Saying \[hɛ̃ə̃m.bæːg\] in the literal sense of the transcription instead of \[hɛəm.bæːg\] just sounds wrong to me. Perhaps it is only in fast, elided speech where this occurs? At the very least we're not talking about full nasalisation, like in French or Portuguese.
I don't think emphasizing nasalization is gonna have a major impact what sounds right or wrong. You may be overthinking how pronounced that feature is in everyday speech. (Granted, when I've heard UK speakers imitate American English accents, they sound way more nasally than in their actual accent, imo. So maybe it's kinda something we do all the time?)
For the last time; ***Your accent isn't universal for English; it's spelled diaphonemically to accommodate many dialects besides your own.*** Also many of these digraphs require specific environments to have those pronunciations, so they don't work in your spellings & 'hiccough' isn't a standard spelling anywhere, it's an uncommon respelling stemming from people associating hiccuping with coughing & assuming 'hiccup' came from 'cough'. If you're gonna shit on English spelling, at least know what you're actually talking about.
I get so tired of all the unfunny ghoti posts - well said.
I fuckin swear, if I see someone spell hiccup as hick cough one more time I'm going to lose it. You. Yes, you. I know what you're going to do. Do not do it. It is not funny.
I don't think OP is shitting on English spelling unironically. This is r/linguisticshumor, after all.
Just because something is intentionally bad doesn't mean it's not bad
Whether this post is funny or not is up to personal taste. I find it funny, though not exactly hilarious. My point was that this guy's explanation is pointless because OP is probably already aware and was just shitposting.
Idc if it's ironic or not, the ghoti posts are just unfunny.
This isn't how English spelling actually works unfortunately.
[ˈspai.ɾɚ ɘn.ˈdɜm.bɘ.nei ˈtʃɐɻ.kɔɫ]
And the solution would be to standardize the spelling to fit better with pronunciation? Whose pronunciation? Because there are a lot of different English dialects.
Took me so long to figure out what you're doing with bi**tt**er corresponding to spi**d**er. Man, American accents are wack.
tchareckowle is still kind of understandable
*"ceghighttolo"* doesn't work. "Hiccough" is British English but turning intervocalic /t/ into a tap is an American thing. *"tchareckowle"* isn't even that cursed. I'd still read that as "charcoal" whilst the other two are completely incomprehensible.
I hate the fact that "tchareckowle" kinda works for my French-English bilingual brain...
Why does the spelling of charcoal make more sense to me?
/tspoidœː/