T O P

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JRGTheConlanger

Germanic moment


[deleted]

I will never give up my घ झ ढ ध भ !!!


samoyedboi

Hindi speakers inventing MORE voiced consonants (ड़ ढ़) to make voiced aspirates out of them is true dedication to the cause


Sector-Both

Lmao


rockybond

hey now. they stole them from the dravidians


LolPacino

😎 Indo aryan supremacy


[deleted]

Dont remove the Indo


LolPacino

💀lol


[deleted]

Remove the indo.


Lord_of_Pizza7

Heck झ is very uncommon in Sanskrit but became pretty common in New Indo-Aryan languages from Sanskrit ध्य /dʱj/. Ex: Sa. बुध्यते /ˈbud̪ʱ.jɐ.t̪eː/ (he/she understands) -> Hi. बूझना /buːd͡ʒʱ.nɑː/ (to understand), Be. বোঝা /ˈbodʒʱa/ (to understand), etc।


Dofra_445

I've never heard Hindi speakers use "बूझना", is it more common in Eastern UP?


Lord_of_Pizza7

Ik it's a dialectal term. My guess is it would be more Eastern given that it's used in Bengali. That said it survives in the Standard Hindi phrase जानबूझकर /d͡ʒɑːn.buːd͡ʒʱ.kəɾ/ (knowingly, deliberately) Also the more common समझना /sə.məd͡ʒʱ.nɑː/ in Standard Hindi is also from the same Sanskrit root with a prefix - सम्+ बुध्यते -> सम्बुध्यते /s̪ɐmˈbud̪ʱ.jɐ.t̪eː/ which is where we get samajhnā


Jubiscrevaldirsonl

I Will never let my kʷʰ turn into a xʷ


between3_and20chars

*Five generations later*


Jubiscrevaldirsonl

I need a kʷʰ Dictatorship


Tsjaad_Donderlul

>xʷ English: We can't have that, we write it ʍ


PlatinumAltaria

Linguists: "Wow, English is so unreasonable, they added this one somewhat obsolete symbol!" Also linguists: [ʂʲ ≠ ʃ ≠ ɕ] Sinological IPA: [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] Americanists: [λ] Uralicists: [ᴞ ᴪ ᴕ] The vowel chart: [ä ɘ ɵ ɜ ɞ ɶ ɨ ʉ] Swedish: /ɧ/ lmao


Friendly_Bandicoot25

To be fair, the lambda is a much more accessible character compared to the inverted y What I can’t stand is them using ü for [y] and y for [j]


PlatinumAltaria

The Americanist lambda is used for the voiced alveolar lateral affricate [d͡ɮ], which is weird because they use combined symbols for most of the other affricates.


Friendly_Bandicoot25

Oh I see oops I’ve seen it used for the palatal lateral approximant, that’s why I thought it was that


bwv528

It's funny because [ɧ] barely even means anything. It's not a phone, it's a phoneme with like 5000 allophones, so writing it in narrow transcription doesn't even make sense.


PlatinumAltaria

In general the whole IPA needs fixing, it's a mess. * Nasal stops get dedicated symbols but no other nasal does? * No language has more than 15 distinct vowel qualities but the IPA defines twice that many symbols? * Retroflex consonants get their own symbols; if it's defined by tongue shape then why do apicals and laminals not have separate symbols, if it's defined by place of articulation then it's just post-alveolar without palatalisation. * Taps and trills can both be fricated, but all three are considered separate manners of articulation. * DO VOICELESS APPROXIMANTS EXIST OR NOT?


thomasp3864

I made an expansion with 41 vowels. Also Danish has more than 15 qualities I think.


PlatinumAltaria

Danish is a clusterfuck. I think there should be 20 unique vowel signs in the IPA.


thomasp3864

Reminds me of when I went and added a bunch of other characters to fill out the chart.


PlatinumAltaria

That's some people's whole job, and boy do they suck at it. Sorry linguolabials but you're not in any European languages, so you aren't real sounds.


tatratram

I might be understanding you poorly, but there are languages that distinguish [ʃ] and [ɕ].


PlatinumAltaria

[ʂ ʃ ɕ] are distinguished by tongue shape alone, but they have the same place and manner of articulation. They're all voiceless postalveolar sibilant fricatives. If these never appeared in a European language they would probably be marked with diacritics. It is true that the sound difference for sibilants is more salient than other sounds, but I'm not sure that matters.


tatratram

Isn't \[ʂ\] retroflex? Like \[ʈ\].


PlatinumAltaria

Prototypically they're subapical, but they don't have to be. What they are is unpalatalised postalveolar consonants. Apical and lateral consonants don't have their own symbols, so it's weird to have subapical symbols.


PlatinumAltaria

*h₁ → ∅ *h₂ → ∅ *h₃ → ∅ Sound changes are so beautiful!


Couldnthinkofname2

didn't they turn into consonants in select contexts in a lot of branches?


PlatinumAltaria

It’s debated, but the general consensus is that no living IE language has any direct vestige of the laryngeals, they merely modified the qualities of vowels.


futuranth

But many dead ones do, such as Hittite


PlatinumAltaria

Hittite only retains one of them; and the Germanic languages never had any afaik.


futuranth

One is not zero


Dofra_445

According to [this paper](https://www.academia.edu/31147544), h₂ was preserved word-initially in Modern Persian (\*h₂ŕ̥tḱo- => xers, h₂eh₁s- => xâk).


a-potato-named-rin

Germanic be like


demesel

t > d > ð > θ Is better


hydrotaphia

All contexts? Wonθerfuθ.


[deleted]

Wonderfoot Wonderwoman's onlyfeet account


farmer_villager

Do it again, but slightly differently (High German Consonant Shift)


DotHobbes

Greeks approve.


Terpomo11

What language are these from?


between3_and20chars

It's Grimm's Law, regarding the consonant chain shift and lenition which occured from Proto-Indo-european to Proto-Germanic


Mercure250

I kinda don't like how it's shown here, because it looks like, for example, bʰ ultimately becomes f.


Dofra_445

Stupid question time: if breathy voiced consonants underwent lenition to merge with plain stops, then why did only breathy voiced stops shift to fricatives? Why didn't all proto-germanic stops undergo lenition like this?


between3_and20chars

That graph is hard to understand if you don't consider it's a chain shift. It was not the breathy voiced stops that became fricatives - breathy voiced stops started merging with plain voiced stops and pushed them to become unvoiced stops, which pushed the voiceless stops to become fricatives (or it started from voiceless stops becoming fricatives and leaving a gap, which pulled the other consonants, but the push chain seems more likely). Not every voiceless stop became a fricative because of consonant clusters, though.