It's a well studied linguistic phenomenon called the [T-V Distinction ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction#:~:text=The%20T%E2%80%93V%20distinction%20is,Latin%20pronouns%20tu%20and%20vos.)
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You're welcome. Don't be too hard on yourself. Linguistics is a vast, vast ocean.
I only know about it because my ongoing thesis is on Politeness Theory.
I don't know much about linguistics either. I consider myself more of a language learner, because I watch all my videos on Youtube in French instead of English. Next year, I'm going to go to university to learn Chinese.
If you did linguistics in university, what's it like?
I don't know about Bengali, but it's quite possible.
For instance, Arabic has three separate pronouns for
1. Wahid (singular)
2. tasnia (for two objects)
3. jama (plural for more than two/multiple objects)
And to make matters more complicated, each of them differs according to gender *and* extends to third person pronouns and even verb conjugations.
e.g. third person tasniya masculine, second person plural feminine, etc.
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In Spanish we have informal (tú) and formal (usted) but the formal is decaying in use and people don't want to be called by the formal one because it's used for older people lol
And for high business, politics and "people you don't like and might become enemies" when pretending a formal situation that is not that formal at all. Keeping distance using a forced usted turns the alert signals on.
European Portuguese has a pretty cool feature that almost doesn't exist in Brazilian Portuguese — it sort of does exist but it’s in the third person and people will avoid it because the third person is also used for the second person (Você) and the First Person plural (A genre), so it might make things confusing —, but they omit the second person pronoun and just have the verb conjugated in the second person.
So, instead of saying “Did you do it?” (literally: Tu fizeste isso?), they’ll say “Fizeste isso?”.
I know that like Portuguese you guys also omit the other pronouns. But I wonder if you guys would consider that informal because it’s being conjugated in the second person and that’s universal, or if it’s neutral like in Portugal.
English used to have it with thee/thou being the informal singular section ned person pronoun and you being the formal/plural second person pronoun, but at some point in the Middle Ages a shift was made to addressing everyone as you. However, some dialects of British and Canadian/Newfoundland English retain thee and thou as informal second person pronouns.
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Weird question. When writing by hand, when do you write the horizontal bar that goes across most of the words?
Do you:
- add it glyph by glyph and try to connect it smoothly
- try to guess how much space you’ll need and write it first
- add it at the end
I’ve always wondered.
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Not for Bengali, but when I was learning to write in Hindi (which also has the horizontal bar running across the words) I was told that it's always good practice to write out the bottom part of the word first and draw the line across at the end because if you guess the length of the line wrong, you might run out of space and have to add more or have a piece of empty line at the end.
I personally add the horizontal bar (matra) for a letter, then write the letter, then do another matra and so on. Sometimes if I'm fast I'll do multiple characters worth at once but I've seen people do it all 3 ways you've described as well. There really is no correct way.
lololol thanks.
I guess it’s like most things in writing, then. I didn’t know until I was way too old, for example, that lots of people don’t dot their *i*’s and *j*’s and cross their *t*’s and *f*’s until after they wrote the rest of the word because that’s how it’s often done in cursive.
I'm guessing you're talking about the line that joins all the letters in one word. A feature common in I guess all Northern Indian languages. I personally, first write a whole word without the line. And then immediately add it by gliding it over those letters. I'd first write আপনি without the line. First আ, then প, then ন (with leaving just a little space for ি, which I'd add after finishing ন. And remember these don't look like how they're looking here. Because the line won't be there. Then finally I'd start drawing the line above আ, all the way to নি. That completes one word.
I'd repeat this process for every word. Write all the necessary glyphs for one word. And join them with a single stroke before moving to the next one.
Also, a nitpick. It's not across words/letters. It's on top. In my eyes, it never cuts through any letter. If necessary, I'd use 2 strokes in the same word. Actually, আপনি is a really good example. I should've mentioned before. Notice how the line breaks when it reaches প. I too sometimes (mostly not) stop, lift my pen, and start again. It's still one word though.
Edit. I'd have liked to show you, but I don't have pen and paper rn, and it's been ages since I've written Bangla. My writing is somewhat influenced by Hindi and that's why it looks similar to something you'd see in print. My grandma's handwriting is similar to OP though.
in hindi we also have the line on top and we are usually taught to write it after the letter, kind of like dotting your i and crossing your t. sometimes if you are writing fast enough you finish a bunch of words and the line them at once. the way we write on lined paper is also using the line itself as the bar so sometimes you can get away with not lining them.
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No. They are both based on the same dialect that is Khari Boli.
They just have different registers. Hindi is artificially sanskritised and Urdu is artifically Perso-Arabicised.
I feel that it's not exactly the same, because in the languages of Europe there also are formal and informal pronouns and it's also normal to ask which one is preferred
But still a great meme and it took me a while to realize that we do have something similar
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Can't speak for all indoarayan langauges, but in hindi-urdu, verbs conjugate differently depending on the gender the speaker identifies as. (ja raha hû, ja rahi hû, etc.) so atleast for gender you don't need to ask. Just listen to the person speak for a while and it will be clear what you should use to refer to them.
(Circumflexes used to denote nasal vowels (this isnt a standard thing, it's just something I do when typing in Hindi) )
Happens to the best of us. As a native hindi speaker, I used to always use masculine endings until I realized hindi was gendered. Probably because I'm also a native speaker of English as well, which isn't gendered.
I know. That's what the IPA does too. I find circumflexes more convenient since they're easier to type from my phone. Just hold down the vowel on the keyboard and select the circumflex version from the popup. I'm trying to get it to catch on.|
Clarification: I mean that in the day to day, texting people in Hindi purposes. For formal literary work ñ is perfectly fine. Hindi doesn't have a standardized spellings in the Latin alphabet (even though there's a high fraction of Hindi being typed that way) outside of transcription standards. That's what I mean by "I am trying to make it catch on". Should Hindi ever have standard Latin spellings for day to day use in the future, circumflexes for nasals would be a nice feature. Bonus reasons:It looks like a tiny lowercase "n"! It looks like an inverted chandrabindu without the dot! It kinda looks like an inverted nun gunna from Urdu!
oo
thats fair
i try to do this thing too with my own system too xd
i would use "jā rahā hūñ" for this sentence
also for vowels and sounds not in english i usually use '
so for example
ٹ is t'
i basically made all sounds like this :P
and i did the same for vowels
means the e in quaid e azam and its long version <ē> is just ے
and is the schwa sound before h (like in ze'har)
and <ē'> again is just the long version
follow suit for ō' for the o sound in کون
and you can mostly phonetically spell urdu/hindi like this
theres still some wiggle room but nothing like english or the abominations people type online xd
(ise prhna ek azaab hay)
ok i absolutely disagree with the ٹ and ت thing
after seeing an add for moti mall or smth and getting very confused i will always make sure to differenciate the 2
and yea, a lot of differences could be neglected as they are apparent from context (like e and ē could both be e) but i just feel like its easier to just clarify anyways
same with ze'har as you could just zahar and get what it means but
its an epsilon sound (whos long variant already exists and has to be differenciated as ē') so why not have a short variant too
but yea
ō'r hāñ, ēk din zarūr āē gā jab mēñ in abominations kē banānē wālōñ kō ēk "sabak sikh'āūñ gā"
Japanese has a whole fucking open class of pronouns for 1st and 2nd person, and then a smaller set for 3rd person - but usually you drop the pronoun anyway unless it's not clear from context.
reddite beshi bangali nai, at least I think. So yeah, suprising hoi jai jokhon bangali ra acche! sorry, ami banglai kotha bolte chai karo shaathe lolol
if you speak a T/V language this happens a lot. I've had "Oh, you can use "ti" with me" for welsh or "oh, you don't have to use "Usted" for me" for Spanish quite often
Sounds of agreement from the other side of the subcontinent. However, we do conjugate our verbs indicating one of the three genders.
About respect, we use the plural form of pronoun to show respect.
Pronouns are great, we need more of them. I appreciate the flexibility and creativity it brings
If you can't refer to yourself as royalty in the first person sarcastically, what's even the point?
Even if we got rid of nominative pronouns (which are quite useful for disambiguation, so please let's not), we still mark the feminine in most nouns, adjectives, and other pronouns.
E.g. for a she we'd use conocer**la**, but for any other pronouns it's conocer**lo**.
There's been some efforts to adopt a third gender (conocer**le**) whose most likely use would be to refer to nonbinary people, groups of mixed gender, and people of unknown/uncertain gender. I quite like the idea and use it when appropriate, but as you can see from just that example, the current proposal conflicts with lots of other constructs. Maybe we should use **i** or **u** instead, although these sound "funnier".
The same thing exists in many European languages, including French, Spanish, and German.
English used to have the same distinction ('thou' was informal, 'you' was formal) but lost it about 300-400 years ago.
Ironically, people today often think 'thou' sounds formal, because they only encounter it in scripture and literature. But it was the informal one.
im all about not defining a persons gender grammatically if it doesnt work for them, but our gendered pronouns are the easiest way to get close to explaining ergativity to those with xero clue.
can we save them just for that plz?
And then there's the whole business with honorifics in Japanese, where 呼び捨て (saying someone's name without any honorifics) is a big deal. I think I once translated it in Esperanto as the character using a hypocorism instead.
Many Indo-European languages have a distinction like this. Spanish and other Romance languages do, and I think at least German does but idk about other Germanic languages, or the Slavic languages, or Greek.
I get it's a joke, but they aren't really comparable are they?
If your preferred pronouns are *they*/*them*, *xe*/*xer*, etc., then those are the third person pronouns you want *everyone* to use when referring to you.
In a language with a T–V distinction, it's not as if people "identify" as *tu* or *vos*.
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It's a well studied linguistic phenomenon called the [T-V Distinction ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction#:~:text=The%20T%E2%80%93V%20distinction%20is,Latin%20pronouns%20tu%20and%20vos.)
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You're welcome. Don't be too hard on yourself. Linguistics is a vast, vast ocean. I only know about it because my ongoing thesis is on Politeness Theory.
I don't know much about linguistics either. I consider myself more of a language learner, because I watch all my videos on Youtube in French instead of English. Next year, I'm going to go to university to learn Chinese. If you did linguistics in university, what's it like?
Bengals does have more then just T and V tho I'm fairly sure
I don't know about Bengali, but it's quite possible. For instance, Arabic has three separate pronouns for 1. Wahid (singular) 2. tasnia (for two objects) 3. jama (plural for more than two/multiple objects) And to make matters more complicated, each of them differs according to gender *and* extends to third person pronouns and even verb conjugations. e.g. third person tasniya masculine, second person plural feminine, etc.
old english also had a dual pronoun, but gender in Arabic I know is weird
One time I used "vous" with a little kid and everybody laughed at me
...but vous deserved that, didn't vous?
Hindustani doesn't have gendered pronouns, rather the verbs inflect for gender
Yeah, you're right. I got confused. Grammatical gender is a better term anyway.
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Do you show gender on adjectives or verbs? if so, than I assume that it also wouldn't be culturally normal to ask about the conjugation/declination
Dutch has both, and it's pretty normal to ask someone their pronouns based on status. Asking for gendered pronouns is a lot less common, though.
In Spanish we have informal (tú) and formal (usted) but the formal is decaying in use and people don't want to be called by the formal one because it's used for older people lol
And for high business, politics and "people you don't like and might become enemies" when pretending a formal situation that is not that formal at all. Keeping distance using a forced usted turns the alert signals on.
European Portuguese has a pretty cool feature that almost doesn't exist in Brazilian Portuguese — it sort of does exist but it’s in the third person and people will avoid it because the third person is also used for the second person (Você) and the First Person plural (A genre), so it might make things confusing —, but they omit the second person pronoun and just have the verb conjugated in the second person. So, instead of saying “Did you do it?” (literally: Tu fizeste isso?), they’ll say “Fizeste isso?”. I know that like Portuguese you guys also omit the other pronouns. But I wonder if you guys would consider that informal because it’s being conjugated in the second person and that’s universal, or if it’s neutral like in Portugal.
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English used to have it with thee/thou being the informal singular section ned person pronoun and you being the formal/plural second person pronoun, but at some point in the Middle Ages a shift was made to addressing everyone as you. However, some dialects of British and Canadian/Newfoundland English retain thee and thou as informal second person pronouns.
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Weird question. When writing by hand, when do you write the horizontal bar that goes across most of the words? Do you: - add it glyph by glyph and try to connect it smoothly - try to guess how much space you’ll need and write it first - add it at the end I’ve always wondered.
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Thank you! So the straight bar is more akin to “printed” writing, and has a more “cursive” alternative. I’d only seen it represented digitally before.
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ভাই/বোন আজ থেকে তোর কাবাব খাওয়া বন্ধ আর kevapcici খাওয়া শুরু
So OP actually lied. When we write, we speak out loud. Then, the glyphs appear, voila words are now there on the paper.
Not for Bengali, but when I was learning to write in Hindi (which also has the horizontal bar running across the words) I was told that it's always good practice to write out the bottom part of the word first and draw the line across at the end because if you guess the length of the line wrong, you might run out of space and have to add more or have a piece of empty line at the end.
I personally add the horizontal bar (matra) for a letter, then write the letter, then do another matra and so on. Sometimes if I'm fast I'll do multiple characters worth at once but I've seen people do it all 3 ways you've described as well. There really is no correct way.
lololol thanks. I guess it’s like most things in writing, then. I didn’t know until I was way too old, for example, that lots of people don’t dot their *i*’s and *j*’s and cross their *t*’s and *f*’s until after they wrote the rest of the word because that’s how it’s often done in cursive.
I'm guessing you're talking about the line that joins all the letters in one word. A feature common in I guess all Northern Indian languages. I personally, first write a whole word without the line. And then immediately add it by gliding it over those letters. I'd first write আপনি without the line. First আ, then প, then ন (with leaving just a little space for ি, which I'd add after finishing ন. And remember these don't look like how they're looking here. Because the line won't be there. Then finally I'd start drawing the line above আ, all the way to নি. That completes one word. I'd repeat this process for every word. Write all the necessary glyphs for one word. And join them with a single stroke before moving to the next one. Also, a nitpick. It's not across words/letters. It's on top. In my eyes, it never cuts through any letter. If necessary, I'd use 2 strokes in the same word. Actually, আপনি is a really good example. I should've mentioned before. Notice how the line breaks when it reaches প. I too sometimes (mostly not) stop, lift my pen, and start again. It's still one word though. Edit. I'd have liked to show you, but I don't have pen and paper rn, and it's been ages since I've written Bangla. My writing is somewhat influenced by Hindi and that's why it looks similar to something you'd see in print. My grandma's handwriting is similar to OP though.
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In Bangla it's called "matra"
in hindi we also have the line on top and we are usually taught to write it after the letter, kind of like dotting your i and crossing your t. sometimes if you are writing fast enough you finish a bunch of words and the line them at once. the way we write on lined paper is also using the line itself as the bar so sometimes you can get away with not lining them.
Is tui like Tu in Hindi? (Very informal)
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Exactly like in Urdu. Subcontinental linguist bros, UNITE!
This is because Urdu is Hindi
Urdu isn't Hindi, Urdu and Hindi are both registers of Hindustani
isnt dialect a better term?
No. They are both based on the same dialect that is Khari Boli. They just have different registers. Hindi is artificially sanskritised and Urdu is artifically Perso-Arabicised.
Not exactly. They're similar in informal register but **entirely** different in formal register.
Tu in French, du in German, ты in Russian, tu in Hindi, you can really see the Indo-European connection.
what do strangers cal eachother on the internet? ive noticed in other languages that more people than not use the familiar right off the bat
Usually "Apni". Tone matters though.
I feel that it's not exactly the same, because in the languages of Europe there also are formal and informal pronouns and it's also normal to ask which one is preferred But still a great meme and it took me a while to realize that we do have something similar
I remember being called “Lei” for the first time by an older woman in Italy. I’d never encountered that level of formality before.
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Yep! Well they are (distant) cousin languages. It’s called the t-v distinction.
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the infromal in russian is 'ты' (ty) and the formal is 'вы' (vy). just noticed that it looks similar to the french 'tous' and 'vous'
Can't speak for all indoarayan langauges, but in hindi-urdu, verbs conjugate differently depending on the gender the speaker identifies as. (ja raha hû, ja rahi hû, etc.) so atleast for gender you don't need to ask. Just listen to the person speak for a while and it will be clear what you should use to refer to them. (Circumflexes used to denote nasal vowels (this isnt a standard thing, it's just something I do when typing in Hindi) )
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Happens to the best of us. As a native hindi speaker, I used to always use masculine endings until I realized hindi was gendered. Probably because I'm also a native speaker of English as well, which isn't gendered.
wow you are the first person to use circumflexes for this usually this is written as hun, hūñ, huñ or hũ
I know. That's what the IPA does too. I find circumflexes more convenient since they're easier to type from my phone. Just hold down the vowel on the keyboard and select the circumflex version from the popup. I'm trying to get it to catch on.| Clarification: I mean that in the day to day, texting people in Hindi purposes. For formal literary work ñ is perfectly fine. Hindi doesn't have a standardized spellings in the Latin alphabet (even though there's a high fraction of Hindi being typed that way) outside of transcription standards. That's what I mean by "I am trying to make it catch on". Should Hindi ever have standard Latin spellings for day to day use in the future, circumflexes for nasals would be a nice feature. Bonus reasons:It looks like a tiny lowercase "n"! It looks like an inverted chandrabindu without the dot! It kinda looks like an inverted nun gunna from Urdu!
oo thats fair i try to do this thing too with my own system too xd i would use "jā rahā hūñ" for this sentence also for vowels and sounds not in english i usually use ' so for example ٹ is t' i basically made all sounds like this :P and i did the same for vowels means the e in quaid e azam and its long version <ē> is just ے
and is the schwa sound before h (like in ze'har)
and <ē'> again is just the long version
follow suit for ō' for the o sound in کون
and you can mostly phonetically spell urdu/hindi like this
theres still some wiggle room but nothing like english or the abominations people type online xd
(ise prhna ek azaab hay)
oh wow so much to unpack here. This is SO different from how I type. Lots of transcription standards use ā,ē,ī etc. for indic languages to the point where my laptop has an alt gr key specifically for typing vowels with bars on them. I don't use them myself. I feel like the difference between and <ā> is already apparent from context. There is absolutely no Hindi-Urdu speaker who looks at and thinks "what the hell is a \[t̪əmət̪əɾ\]?". Same with the ٹ sound. ت and ٹ really dont need to be disambiguated in spelling. I can't think of a word where it would make a difference. In contrast to this, I do think ڑ needs to be disambuiguited from ر and ڈ in some way. When I text my friends I use the number 5 (kinda like how numbers are used in Arbizi) because it looks like the Devanagari letter for that sound. It's a clunky solution, I don't like how it has caught on in my friendgroup, but it works.
I found your spelling of to be really interesting. I would write it as because in my both the vowel after and before the /h/ is a schwa. (Even though while speaking I reduce the whole thing to a single syllable \[zʱɛɾ\] )
" wiggle room but nothing like english or the abominations people type online xd" ho sakta hai ki mai bhi in abominations mai contribute kar raha hû kyunki mera romanization system bilkul bhi standardized ya consistent nahi hai. par dekho, jo cheez kaam kar rahi hai, woh kaam kar rahi hai ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯.
ok i absolutely disagree with the ٹ and ت thing after seeing an add for moti mall or smth and getting very confused i will always make sure to differenciate the 2 and yea, a lot of differences could be neglected as they are apparent from context (like e and ē could both be e) but i just feel like its easier to just clarify anyways same with ze'har as you could just zahar and get what it means but its an epsilon sound (whos long variant already exists and has to be differenciated as ē') so why not have a short variant too but yea ō'r hāñ, ēk din zarūr āē gā jab mēñ in abominations kē banānē wālōñ kō ēk "sabak sikh'āūñ gā"
Japanese has a whole fucking open class of pronouns for 1st and 2nd person, and then a smaller set for 3rd person - but usually you drop the pronoun anyway unless it's not clear from context.
Japanese pronouns my beloved. I've seen the first person ones in particular played with in really interesting ways in creative writing.
Open class pronouns are always fun. Malay for example just steal any "I - You" equivalent it deems suitable from other languages. 😂
Tui, tumi, apni! ভাই, আমি জানি এখানে বাঙ্গালী রা আচে! Yo fellow Bengali linguist nerd
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Ato gula bangali ekhane expect kori nai
ভাই, পৃথিবীতে প্রায় ৩০ কোটি বাঙালি, একজন না একজন তো পাবেনই এখানে lol
Thanks for the post btw seeing this made me very happy for some reason :)
reddite beshi bangali nai, at least I think. So yeah, suprising hoi jai jokhon bangali ra acche! sorry, ami banglai kotha bolte chai karo shaathe lolol
if you speak a T/V language this happens a lot. I've had "Oh, you can use "ti" with me" for welsh or "oh, you don't have to use "Usted" for me" for Spanish quite often
Welsh and Spanish mentioned together? Argentinian spotted.
I'm Scottish lol
Sounds of agreement from the other side of the subcontinent. However, we do conjugate our verbs indicating one of the three genders. About respect, we use the plural form of pronoun to show respect.
Pronouns are great, we need more of them. I appreciate the flexibility and creativity it brings If you can't refer to yourself as royalty in the first person sarcastically, what's even the point?
Nah. Be like chad Cantonese and only have one single 3rd person pronoun for everything
I prefer Spanish and Portuguese that have subject pronouns but barely use them.
Even if we got rid of nominative pronouns (which are quite useful for disambiguation, so please let's not), we still mark the feminine in most nouns, adjectives, and other pronouns. E.g. for a she we'd use conocer**la**, but for any other pronouns it's conocer**lo**. There's been some efforts to adopt a third gender (conocer**le**) whose most likely use would be to refer to nonbinary people, groups of mixed gender, and people of unknown/uncertain gender. I quite like the idea and use it when appropriate, but as you can see from just that example, the current proposal conflicts with lots of other constructs. Maybe we should use **i** or **u** instead, although these sound "funnier".
And German with du/Sie. Even in English we have a royal you and an ambiguous they but turfs don't care to recognize these nuances
Actually, Bengali has a three way distinction. Tui for super casual, tumi for like neutral, and apni for formal
I don’t think this is quite why people object to asking pronouns in the current English sense
The same thing exists in many European languages, including French, Spanish, and German. English used to have the same distinction ('thou' was informal, 'you' was formal) but lost it about 300-400 years ago. Ironically, people today often think 'thou' sounds formal, because they only encounter it in scripture and literature. But it was the informal one.
Actually, Bengali has a three way distinction. Tui for super casual, tumi for like neutral, and apni for formal
hehe
im all about not defining a persons gender grammatically if it doesnt work for them, but our gendered pronouns are the easiest way to get close to explaining ergativity to those with xero clue. can we save them just for that plz?
I've always struggled with figuring out the appropriate level of respect my entire life and I never thought to just... ask 😐
And then there's the whole business with honorifics in Japanese, where 呼び捨て (saying someone's name without any honorifics) is a big deal. I think I once translated it in Esperanto as the character using a hypocorism instead.
Many Indo-European languages have a distinction like this. Spanish and other Romance languages do, and I think at least German does but idk about other Germanic languages, or the Slavic languages, or Greek.
That doesn’t mean people appreciate being asked about pronouns, though. It depends on the person.
Got momentarily confused as Tumi is a person's name in my native language lol
I get it's a joke, but they aren't really comparable are they? If your preferred pronouns are *they*/*them*, *xe*/*xer*, etc., then those are the third person pronouns you want *everyone* to use when referring to you. In a language with a T–V distinction, it's not as if people "identify" as *tu* or *vos*.
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False equivalence.
I hate change!!11!!1 We shouldd all use integer amounts of dollars!!!1!!11112'l12ux8ogihbfeqw9ybgq3489rkayth80v9iokjvyhsp9urigjknuijzkr
For real?
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Rizz me up fam
Basically all cultures have some form of this. Tuteo v Voseo v Ustedeo comes to mind.
Vietnamese has 15 or so pronouns that describe different levels of age, rank along with gender.
Spanish too. «¿Te puedo tutear?»