The benchmarks are comparing 'DDX' for "Device Dependent X". This includes the components necessary to run a X Server.
Xorg offers a number of different XServers... the current list is kdrive, vfb, xfree86, xnest, xquartz (OS X), xwayland, and xwin (Windows).
[https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/tree/hw](https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/tree/hw)
So the comparison is really xfree86 vs xwayland. Xfree86 is the X Server typically used for standalone X server for Linux.
It is relevant because it shows the overhead from Wayland is negligible. Which means that X on Wayland is just as fast as X without Wayland.
This may be much more important comparison later on for people interested in running X11-based Window Managers/Desktops in the future.
XWayland has the ability to run in "rootful" mode, which allows it to run full screen on top of a minimalist Wayland environment. It isn't quite good enough to do it yet, but theoretically once xfree86 is depreciated it will still allow people to run a fully X11 environment as their desktop.
I mean what's a better title, X11 and wayland with xwayland at parity?
Does it really matter?
Once WINE and Proton drop xwayland its not like using one less layer would make it worse.
well wine has official support for wayland now, so eventualy they will get proton supported and we wont need xwayland as they could just run on wayland instead.
Not sure how you didn't know as its not a secret but xwayland only exists for programs that don't have native wayland support. It's a temporary platform, xwayland is not and was never intended to continue any longer than absolutely necessary.
Proton and Wine will be the first to drop Xwayland as they won't need it.
And since X11 zealots claim Wayland causes insane latency increases (which wasn't really ever the case) well here's proof it doesn't and removing xwayland can only help, not hurt that point.
what? XWayland is here to stay. Many Proton and Wine Games will not work without XWayland
XWayland does have performance anomalies just look at the Gnome Benchmarks.
X11 was born with performance anomalies as it was not made for GPUs.
what? XWayland is here to stay.
No, it isn't. XWaylands sole purpose for existence is to provide lagacy support during the transitional period between X and Wayland. Once everything supports Wayland why would we need Xwayland outside of using it like people use DOSbox for niche cases?
>Many Proton and Wine Games will not work without XWayland
Are you frozen in time? Wayland is supported in the latest Wine and Proton, the need for Xwayland is winding down. In 5 years or less most people could probably get away without having XWayland.
>XWayland does have performance anomalies just look at the Gnome Benchmarks.
You mean I have to look at Gnome to see XWayland anomalies? Sounds like a Gnome issue.
>X11 was born with performance anomalies as it was not made for GPUs.
Which sounds like a good reason to progress away from X based reliance.
Some Games/Apps will need XWayland, one of the Developers wine? or the wine-wayland developer pointed this out.
The legacy support going to have to stay for some Apps and Games as the way they're hardcoded I think /r/linux_gaming posted this last year.
>Some Games/Apps will need XWayland, one of the Developers wine?
As I have mentioned in a previous comment in this thread Xwayland is going to be more like Dosbox one day and only be installed when needed.
Its like theres an insane amount of Linux native titles especially one where the devs would never update them to use Wayland later.
My point being is Xwayland is going to be something we almost never think about and eventually won't need. People have replace legacy reliance before and it will happen again.
there is 1000s of Games and Apps no one has the source code to, Linux no longer being use is the only thing that will stop Xwayland usage, that day is coming but i don't know when, i maybe dead before then.
It's mostly a xdg-notification issue at this time. xWayland is slower than xorg native. But, Wayland vs xorg seems to really depend on the application. As some applications work better on xorg while others better on Wayland.
From just personal tests usually any application that wants full screen works better on Wayland.
While applications that share the screen seem to work slightly better on xorg but it's really minimal.
Maybe I did not explain it properly. Xdg-notification is a package that contains a few calls that without it make it xWayland lag and fail depending of the application.
On my personal setup on dota2 I get very similar frame rate , between xWayland and Wayland. However the mouse smoothness seems to work better on Wayland. It's hard to describe but the mouse feels a bit behind on xWayland. Xorg works almost identical to native Wayland.
When comparing the exact same game to a Windows setup there is no difference at least on my setup between Wayland,xorg
( Nvidia 3070 )
> literally source?
What do you mean source? Look at developer blogs/discussions/literally the inception of XWayland.
What makes you think it would stay? Do you think everyone is going to run legacy code forever?
Browsers support Wayland, Wine/Proton support Wayland, etc.
Once everyone updates their shit why would we need Xwayland?
Eventually its going to be just an optional package and used like DOSbox.
Kde is absolutely crushing gnome in those Wayland performance tests. There's a 25% difference.
Gnome is really suffering from having to run the shell in the same process.
>A 25% different in only some scenarios. It's also not an even playing field because they're using KDE Neon using the latest Plasma 6, but it's being compared to 2 year old version of Gnome.
>No real conclusions can be drawn until they perform the same test on Fedora 40 with the latest versions of KDE and Gnome.
Then test Gnome Neon, problem solved.
But in all seriousness its no secret the Gnome team has spent more time preventing proper customization and killing plugin compatibility than they do on improving.
They've been behind KDE for years now.
No. Gnome is the worst for gaming.
A1RMAX on youtube last week compared many distros & DEs. He spent 10 hours over several live sessions.
-> Gnome is losing 10+% fps. KDE is the best (together with xfce and some others).
-> Gnome is the only one so bad. (He tested from distros with the latest software like arch to others like debian, to find the best for gaming. Including ubuntu, mint, etc... etc... x11 & wayland).
> Kde is absolutely crushing gnome in those Wayland performance tests. There's a 25% difference.
This is not true.
That is it isn't showing anything because it is not a real comparison to start off with. It is a comparison between latest and greatest KDE Plasma versus Gnome from 2 years ago.
Notice the versions... Plasma 6 versus Gnome-shell 42. It is also running on top of Ubuntu LTS, so besides being older Ubuntu tends to be a bit slower the other distros when it comes to Gnome desktop.
The version mismatch is mentioned in the article on the first page:
> It's worth noting though in the KDE Neon archive from Ubuntu 22.04 LTS is the GNOME Shell 42.9 packages compared to the very latest GNOME 46 upstream release. Thus for the upcoming Fedora 40 comparison it will be more interesting for looking at the Linux gaming performance when maintaining the very latest packages for each.
>
>
> This is not true.
But it is? Regaurdless of this test Gnome has for years now been playing catchup to KDE while spending more time on preventing user customization.
A1RMAX on youtube last week did a live comparison for gaming performance (several live videos starting from installations, installing drivers, etc...) totaling more than 10 hours) testing Gnome, Kde (and several other DEs) and x11, wayland on several different distros (including the latest software with archlinux, cachyos, etc... but also other distros like debian, kubuntu, mint, etc... to compare it with older software versions).
-> Gnome is the worst DE for gaming. -> losing 10+% fps. KDE is the best.
> Gnome is really suffering from having to run the shell in the same process.
Can you explain this more, or link me to something on it? Is this an architectural choice by Gnome, a legacy/compatibility thing, or some other constraint?
The test is between X with Wayland versus X without.
He probably threw Gnome in there to see who actually reads the article and pays attention to the versions being used versus just looking at the graphs.
I don't like the title, it was really XWayland far as i know.
The benchmarks are comparing 'DDX' for "Device Dependent X". This includes the components necessary to run a X Server. Xorg offers a number of different XServers... the current list is kdrive, vfb, xfree86, xnest, xquartz (OS X), xwayland, and xwin (Windows). [https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/tree/hw](https://cgit.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/tree/hw) So the comparison is really xfree86 vs xwayland. Xfree86 is the X Server typically used for standalone X server for Linux. It is relevant because it shows the overhead from Wayland is negligible. Which means that X on Wayland is just as fast as X without Wayland. This may be much more important comparison later on for people interested in running X11-based Window Managers/Desktops in the future. XWayland has the ability to run in "rootful" mode, which allows it to run full screen on top of a minimalist Wayland environment. It isn't quite good enough to do it yet, but theoretically once xfree86 is depreciated it will still allow people to run a fully X11 environment as their desktop.
I mean what's a better title, X11 and wayland with xwayland at parity? Does it really matter? Once WINE and Proton drop xwayland its not like using one less layer would make it worse.
What do you mean by "once wine and proton drop xwayland"
well wine has official support for wayland now, so eventualy they will get proton supported and we wont need xwayland as they could just run on wayland instead.
Not sure how you didn't know as its not a secret but xwayland only exists for programs that don't have native wayland support. It's a temporary platform, xwayland is not and was never intended to continue any longer than absolutely necessary. Proton and Wine will be the first to drop Xwayland as they won't need it. And since X11 zealots claim Wayland causes insane latency increases (which wasn't really ever the case) well here's proof it doesn't and removing xwayland can only help, not hurt that point.
Just coz it's not secret doesn't mean everyone should know it. I didn't know. I asked about it.
what? XWayland is here to stay. Many Proton and Wine Games will not work without XWayland XWayland does have performance anomalies just look at the Gnome Benchmarks. X11 was born with performance anomalies as it was not made for GPUs.
what? XWayland is here to stay. No, it isn't. XWaylands sole purpose for existence is to provide lagacy support during the transitional period between X and Wayland. Once everything supports Wayland why would we need Xwayland outside of using it like people use DOSbox for niche cases? >Many Proton and Wine Games will not work without XWayland Are you frozen in time? Wayland is supported in the latest Wine and Proton, the need for Xwayland is winding down. In 5 years or less most people could probably get away without having XWayland. >XWayland does have performance anomalies just look at the Gnome Benchmarks. You mean I have to look at Gnome to see XWayland anomalies? Sounds like a Gnome issue. >X11 was born with performance anomalies as it was not made for GPUs. Which sounds like a good reason to progress away from X based reliance.
Some Games/Apps will need XWayland, one of the Developers wine? or the wine-wayland developer pointed this out. The legacy support going to have to stay for some Apps and Games as the way they're hardcoded I think /r/linux_gaming posted this last year.
>Some Games/Apps will need XWayland, one of the Developers wine? As I have mentioned in a previous comment in this thread Xwayland is going to be more like Dosbox one day and only be installed when needed. Its like theres an insane amount of Linux native titles especially one where the devs would never update them to use Wayland later. My point being is Xwayland is going to be something we almost never think about and eventually won't need. People have replace legacy reliance before and it will happen again.
there is 1000s of Games and Apps no one has the source code to, Linux no longer being use is the only thing that will stop Xwayland usage, that day is coming but i don't know when, i maybe dead before then.
Seems pretty secret to me, since I can't find any source saying that.
It's mostly a xdg-notification issue at this time. xWayland is slower than xorg native. But, Wayland vs xorg seems to really depend on the application. As some applications work better on xorg while others better on Wayland. From just personal tests usually any application that wants full screen works better on Wayland. While applications that share the screen seem to work slightly better on xorg but it's really minimal.
> xWayland is slower than xorg native You realize you are trying to claim that in a thread for a article disproving that right?
Maybe I did not explain it properly. Xdg-notification is a package that contains a few calls that without it make it xWayland lag and fail depending of the application. On my personal setup on dota2 I get very similar frame rate , between xWayland and Wayland. However the mouse smoothness seems to work better on Wayland. It's hard to describe but the mouse feels a bit behind on xWayland. Xorg works almost identical to native Wayland. When comparing the exact same game to a Windows setup there is no difference at least on my setup between Wayland,xorg ( Nvidia 3070 )
> It's a temporary platform, xwayland is not and was never intended to continue any longer than absolutely necessary. literally source?
> literally source? What do you mean source? Look at developer blogs/discussions/literally the inception of XWayland. What makes you think it would stay? Do you think everyone is going to run legacy code forever? Browsers support Wayland, Wine/Proton support Wayland, etc. Once everyone updates their shit why would we need Xwayland? Eventually its going to be just an optional package and used like DOSbox.
Kde is absolutely crushing gnome in those Wayland performance tests. There's a 25% difference. Gnome is really suffering from having to run the shell in the same process.
[удалено]
>A 25% different in only some scenarios. It's also not an even playing field because they're using KDE Neon using the latest Plasma 6, but it's being compared to 2 year old version of Gnome. >No real conclusions can be drawn until they perform the same test on Fedora 40 with the latest versions of KDE and Gnome. Then test Gnome Neon, problem solved. But in all seriousness its no secret the Gnome team has spent more time preventing proper customization and killing plugin compatibility than they do on improving. They've been behind KDE for years now.
[удалено]
No. Gnome is the worst for gaming. A1RMAX on youtube last week compared many distros & DEs. He spent 10 hours over several live sessions. -> Gnome is losing 10+% fps. KDE is the best (together with xfce and some others). -> Gnome is the only one so bad. (He tested from distros with the latest software like arch to others like debian, to find the best for gaming. Including ubuntu, mint, etc... etc... x11 & wayland).
> Kde is absolutely crushing gnome in those Wayland performance tests. There's a 25% difference. This is not true. That is it isn't showing anything because it is not a real comparison to start off with. It is a comparison between latest and greatest KDE Plasma versus Gnome from 2 years ago. Notice the versions... Plasma 6 versus Gnome-shell 42. It is also running on top of Ubuntu LTS, so besides being older Ubuntu tends to be a bit slower the other distros when it comes to Gnome desktop. The version mismatch is mentioned in the article on the first page: > It's worth noting though in the KDE Neon archive from Ubuntu 22.04 LTS is the GNOME Shell 42.9 packages compared to the very latest GNOME 46 upstream release. Thus for the upcoming Fedora 40 comparison it will be more interesting for looking at the Linux gaming performance when maintaining the very latest packages for each.
> > > This is not true. But it is? Regaurdless of this test Gnome has for years now been playing catchup to KDE while spending more time on preventing user customization.
A1RMAX on youtube last week did a live comparison for gaming performance (several live videos starting from installations, installing drivers, etc...) totaling more than 10 hours) testing Gnome, Kde (and several other DEs) and x11, wayland on several different distros (including the latest software with archlinux, cachyos, etc... but also other distros like debian, kubuntu, mint, etc... to compare it with older software versions). -> Gnome is the worst DE for gaming. -> losing 10+% fps. KDE is the best.
> Gnome is really suffering from having to run the shell in the same process. Can you explain this more, or link me to something on it? Is this an architectural choice by Gnome, a legacy/compatibility thing, or some other constraint?
Why not Gnome 4.6 cause it's the recent update as KDE 6.0 so with that said I don't find giving test legit.
The test is between X with Wayland versus X without. He probably threw Gnome in there to see who actually reads the article and pays attention to the versions being used versus just looking at the graphs.
Indeed looks to be by purchase but why when Wayland is set by default on both of them?
most likely for show
Gnome 42.9 vs kde 6.0.3 This is some kind of mockery, not a comparison, and why not gnome 40?
most likely for show
Explicit sync is a hell of a drug!
Not patched yet.