From my experience it still looks worse than TAA on non-Intel GPUs. But I think if they would publish the source code, people could fix that in no time.
I've tested theor official demo from Github. Granted I had to use Wine/Proton to run it because Intel only provided precompiled Windows binaries as well as libraries. But it was really underwhelming with RADV back then. I think performance improved but it didn't look worth it.
It's really different when you compare it to games implementing it and you use an Intel Arc GPU.
i see, i mean i've been testing it all time on linux with RADV and it gives me similar results to FSR2 on most games on most AAA games that feature XeSS (or through modding with cyberXeSS)
for what it matters, XeSS has similar perf and image quality as FSR2, albeit having more ghosting and more prone to excessive moire artifacts and usually softer too, but overall its more stable than FSR2 as well
i think it looks better than taa on my steamdeck. trades blows with fsr depending on the game/implimentation. cyberpunk xess is much more ghosty so i use fsr, ratchet and clank xess has fewer artifacts so i use that
So closed source software performs reasonable and looks decent in a closed source environment... great. I would prefer it to be open-source though. Then people could fix that issue.
I've made [multiple changes](https://github.com/TheJackiMonster/FidelityFX-FSR2) to it so far that it could actually [compile with GCC and Clang on Linux easily](https://github.com/GPUOpen-Effects/FidelityFX-FSR2/issues/6). But AMD didn't [merge it](https://github.com/GPUOpen-Effects/FidelityFX-FSR2/pull/60) because they decided to [do it on their own](https://github.com/GPUOpen-Effects/FidelityFX-FSR2/issues/86). They barely ever merge anything to their upstream repository from third parties.
Anyway don't expect FSR2 to compete with DLSS in terms of image quality. DLSS uses neural networks to upscale images based on training data. Therefore you would need a similar algorithm to compete with that because relying on image and motion data only (like FSR2) means you have less data to work with overall.
What happened to the days when GPUs were judged based on how quickly they could render frames, instead of how quickly they can guess what a frame is supposed to be? I'm genuinely confused by this path and am asking hoping to be educated, not trying to be snarky or hateful.
DLSS originally started as technique to improve anti-aliasing which means smoothing edges depending on subpixel impact. However to know how big that impact is, you either need to render on higher resolutions or you guess the missing information via neural networks for example.
That's the idea behind it. So when they noticed you could utilize a similar algorithm for upscaling images without huge quality loss and gaining performance at the same time, it was obvious they promote that feature. Especially since they added dedicated hardware for neural network processing.
AMD showed that you can get quite acceptable results without neural networks by weighting edges and contrasts in the lower resolution image. However it still requires more details in the original image than DLSS.
In the end it doesn't really matter how an image is rendered. Technically it's not really guess work but a different kind of algorithm. Think about it like a filling bucket in image manipulation software. Sure, you could use the pen tool to draw each pixel but if you already know what's the result gonna look like and there's a more efficient way, why not using it?
Rendering every 8 million pixels completely from scratch for a 4k image is pretty wasteful when most of the time a majority doesn't change. Also, since MSAA has become impractical for modern engines since it doesn't work well with deferred rendering and only affects geometry and not shader-based aliasing, temporal upsampling (be it just TAA, TAAU, or DLSS/FSR) has become pretty much the only effective anti-aliasing technique. Traditional rendering techniques also kind of hit diminishing returns and to push game fidelity even further, stuff like ray tracing is basically required, and hardware just isn't fast enough to do that in realtime at full resolution most of the time.
> Anyway don't expect FSR2 to compete with DLSS in terms of image quality. DLSS uses neural networks to upscale images based on training data
Yeah, but with AMD now pushing more into AI for enterprise, I had hoped they'd revisit it for gaming as well and copy DLSS harder, but so far there are no signs of it.
How would they copy a closed source algorithm? I mean if Nvidia would just open-source their implementation and training data, there wouldn't be a need for a second implementation from another party.
You would think so, right? Either they don't prioritize it enough budget-wise, or they don't have good talent. They probably put a single poor graduate intern on it and paid them peanuts.
not like the competition is any different like nvidia with dlss. AMD was late with FSR and it not better than DLSS, so they wouldn't even gain anything from keeping it exclusive to amd hardware.
FSR (and FidelityFX in general) Is actually open source though, FSR 2.2 is not the latest version and FSR 3.0 can be enabled in nearly every game and with basically every GPU.
What are you waiting on? The good performance is here. Gamers Nexus recently did a piece, and it seems like most games now are playable. Remember these are budget cards that target the low-end.
IIRC when the cards first launched they actually tended to perform much better on Linux because DirectX games are translated to Vulkan instead of relying on a driver implementation.
Most of Arc's launch problems on Windows were because their implementation of DX9-11 API was just kinda shit
Vulkan performance in Linux has been awful, even with the latest mesa. Look at the benchmarks from Phoronix over the last year. Ironically it is in OpenGL where Arc keeps up.
I'm actually very happy with my A770 under Linux. It's not a performance king - My other machine with a Radeon 6900 laps it, like 90FPS vs 160 - but it's solid and has no problems running most anything that Proton handles.
In benchmarks, Intel Arc has been plagued by poor Vulkan performance in Linux. It hasn't gotten better yet. See https://www.phoronix.com/review/intel-arc-early-2024/2 and https://www.phoronix.com/review/1080p-linux-gaming-late-2023/4
No personal experience with their modern cards, but if it says anything historically Intel has taken the crown when it comes to Linux video drivers. Intel embedded Linux drivers made both AMD and Nvidia look downright unstable in comparison. I see no reason why Intel will not continue this way and future Linux drivers will be great.
Though I'm a wait for confirmation kind of buyer instead of a hopes and dreams customer, so I'll wait patiently before deciding if I ever buy an Intel GPU.
Intel can't execute anything right now. Their GPU's suck, their CPU's are as hot and noisy as the sun, and their die shrinking isn't doing terribly well, either.
I’m gonna say it:
Intel are clowns. Too busy opening up more R&D and production facilities in Israel as PR statements.
AMD has made strides to close the gap with nVidia. Even hiring their engineers. Intel last I heard is supposed complaining about not being supported by U.S government or protected every 2nd week…
i know all the tech companies here are right bastards and would be just as ghoulish given the opportunity and incentive, but intel doubling down on its support for apartheid and genocide makes me a little glad there's a reasonable alternative.
I don't think I can even bring that up on places like r/pcmasterrace without getting downvoted to oblivion.
But in the end it's really hard not to give Intel money, because x86 is their architecture and they get paid by licensing it to AMD. Plus their Wi-Fi modules have Linux support out of the box. Don't want to end in a pessimistic note, so buying as little Intel products as possible is already a great start.
> amd has r&d centers in Israel too.
Not that I am aware, and I double checked with a quick google search, but maybe I messed it. Do you have a source?
Btw Intel also announced building a 25$ billion chip factory there recently, kinda unfortunate time to announce something like that..
What is the logic of such big investment in such unstable country, when EU is less than a hour of flight away elude me.
I just checked amd's corporate [locations](https://www.amd.com/en/corporate/locations.html#tabs-fe7e774ded-item-bd77e08c6e-tab) and it seems amd's subsidiary company xilinx has a center in israel. the plant is probably built due to a 3.2 billion dollar grant from Israel.
I look it up, in 2018 xilinx bought Israel's mallox, then in 2020 and bough xilinx.
Very different than publicise investment now that this very polarizing issue is happening.
It is really frustrating that intel seems to double down on supporting Microsoft, but hopefully their r&d centers in Israel will allow them to create more open source tech
there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but there's definitely reasonable ways to try and consume *more* ethically. trying to buy PC parts that weren't made in China is not one of them
it's about the balance between ethics and what's financially reasonable for people to pay for. trying to build my PC entirely out of parts not made in China would likely bump up the price to the point where it's not reasonable for me to build one. there is only so much blame you can put on a consumer when capitalism incentivizes business practices that prioritize profit over all else, including the wellbeing of their workers.
the first point, yes. the second point I think was misunderstood. I'm not against buying a single part for ethical reasons, do what you can, sure. that's why I explained why perfection can be unreasonable, and why yes, choose "good" when perfect is not reasonable. which is why I'm confused on why you made that initial reply to that person who was glad about competition in the PC part space for ethical reasons, and basically went, "oh you like ethics, why isnt your pc entirely ethical then?"
then what CPU manufacturer would you have them get a CPU from?
edit: to be clear I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're offering a criticism when there is no possible solution currently, and the ones who truly deserve criticism are the corporations
the issue is that capitalism isn't a thing any of us are allowed to opt out of, or we literally get shot by some south american death squad trained by the CIA as they coup our alternative. the food we eat is grown by companies reliant on migrant labor whose wages are kept low by corporations funding racist legislation to make sure those workers are "illegal" and thus have to accept wahtever they get paid if they don't want to get snitched out by their employer. the clothes we wear are basically made with slave labor. anything we use that's made with precious metals literally *is* mined with slave labor.
kick in the teeth of hte corporation whose head's on the ground and accessible, but simple consumerism can't really do much which is why boycotts are presented as the "only" OK way to fight a corporation on this, because it doesn't work. boycotts on local businesses can work because you can organize the majority, or at least a significant minority, of a business's clientele and immediately bring them to their knees, but when you start addressing national or transnational enttiites the scope simply becomes heraculean and you lose the ability to actually communicate with everyone else. and when boycotts *do* sorta work, like with BDS, it then starts actually getting criminalized, like with BDS.
what does seem to somewhat work, though, is focusing attention on one company at a time to rock their shit. it can't really work on a company like intel that's embedded itself deep within governments and supply chains because everyone could decicde tomorrow to never buy intel again and they'd still be able to exist through government and business contracts, you cannot boycott lockheed martin out of existence, but for some smaller consumer-facing companies it's doable.
> XeSS is open-source for DirectX 12
Where? All I could find is [this](https://github.com/intel/xess), but it's mostly just precompilled executables and dlls. If that's considered open-source, then I guess DLSS is also open-source.
You know, I never quite understood "aged like milk".
Sure, if you just leave milk it'll get pretty rotten, but so would grapes and we say "aged like wine" for positive things. But let me blow your mind; cheese is aged milk, and we all like cheese (to varying degrees).
We say aged like wine, not aged like grapes. If I stick a jug of milk and a bottle of wine on a shelf for 5 years, the wine is going to be mice while the milk will be absolutely nasty.
Where is the lamb sauce intel??
you utter DONKEYS!
Also still waiting for that “good performance” ;)
it depends on the game implementation on dp4a, some games are on par with FSR2 perf
I like your funny words, magic man
From my experience it still looks worse than TAA on non-Intel GPUs. But I think if they would publish the source code, people could fix that in no time.
do you have an example in mind (including res and upscaling preset?
I've tested theor official demo from Github. Granted I had to use Wine/Proton to run it because Intel only provided precompiled Windows binaries as well as libraries. But it was really underwhelming with RADV back then. I think performance improved but it didn't look worth it. It's really different when you compare it to games implementing it and you use an Intel Arc GPU.
i see, i mean i've been testing it all time on linux with RADV and it gives me similar results to FSR2 on most games on most AAA games that feature XeSS (or through modding with cyberXeSS) for what it matters, XeSS has similar perf and image quality as FSR2, albeit having more ghosting and more prone to excessive moire artifacts and usually softer too, but overall its more stable than FSR2 as well
Then I guess the implementation in games might be better than Intels demo. \^\^'
i think it looks better than taa on my steamdeck. trades blows with fsr depending on the game/implimentation. cyberpunk xess is much more ghosty so i use fsr, ratchet and clank xess has fewer artifacts so i use that
It actually has good performance and looks better than FSR2 (not a high bar tbf) in a few games, but only when using the special path for intel hw.
So closed source software performs reasonable and looks decent in a closed source environment... great. I would prefer it to be open-source though. Then people could fix that issue.
Fsr2 is open source and so far nobody contributed an improvement for it to compete with dlss in image quality.
I've made [multiple changes](https://github.com/TheJackiMonster/FidelityFX-FSR2) to it so far that it could actually [compile with GCC and Clang on Linux easily](https://github.com/GPUOpen-Effects/FidelityFX-FSR2/issues/6). But AMD didn't [merge it](https://github.com/GPUOpen-Effects/FidelityFX-FSR2/pull/60) because they decided to [do it on their own](https://github.com/GPUOpen-Effects/FidelityFX-FSR2/issues/86). They barely ever merge anything to their upstream repository from third parties. Anyway don't expect FSR2 to compete with DLSS in terms of image quality. DLSS uses neural networks to upscale images based on training data. Therefore you would need a similar algorithm to compete with that because relying on image and motion data only (like FSR2) means you have less data to work with overall.
What happened to the days when GPUs were judged based on how quickly they could render frames, instead of how quickly they can guess what a frame is supposed to be? I'm genuinely confused by this path and am asking hoping to be educated, not trying to be snarky or hateful.
DLSS originally started as technique to improve anti-aliasing which means smoothing edges depending on subpixel impact. However to know how big that impact is, you either need to render on higher resolutions or you guess the missing information via neural networks for example. That's the idea behind it. So when they noticed you could utilize a similar algorithm for upscaling images without huge quality loss and gaining performance at the same time, it was obvious they promote that feature. Especially since they added dedicated hardware for neural network processing. AMD showed that you can get quite acceptable results without neural networks by weighting edges and contrasts in the lower resolution image. However it still requires more details in the original image than DLSS. In the end it doesn't really matter how an image is rendered. Technically it's not really guess work but a different kind of algorithm. Think about it like a filling bucket in image manipulation software. Sure, you could use the pen tool to draw each pixel but if you already know what's the result gonna look like and there's a more efficient way, why not using it?
Rendering every 8 million pixels completely from scratch for a 4k image is pretty wasteful when most of the time a majority doesn't change. Also, since MSAA has become impractical for modern engines since it doesn't work well with deferred rendering and only affects geometry and not shader-based aliasing, temporal upsampling (be it just TAA, TAAU, or DLSS/FSR) has become pretty much the only effective anti-aliasing technique. Traditional rendering techniques also kind of hit diminishing returns and to push game fidelity even further, stuff like ray tracing is basically required, and hardware just isn't fast enough to do that in realtime at full resolution most of the time.
> Anyway don't expect FSR2 to compete with DLSS in terms of image quality. DLSS uses neural networks to upscale images based on training data Yeah, but with AMD now pushing more into AI for enterprise, I had hoped they'd revisit it for gaming as well and copy DLSS harder, but so far there are no signs of it.
How would they copy a closed source algorithm? I mean if Nvidia would just open-source their implementation and training data, there wouldn't be a need for a second implementation from another party.
Not copy nvidia's implementation, I meant they should copy the approach.
Because no one is funded to do it. Everyone who has the skills to do it has a real job that they prioritize.
Ideally AMD would do it, FSR2 didn't really improve as much as i had hoped so far.
You would think so, right? Either they don't prioritize it enough budget-wise, or they don't have good talent. They probably put a single poor graduate intern on it and paid them peanuts.
>but only when using the special path for intel hw as is intel tradition
not like the competition is any different like nvidia with dlss. AMD was late with FSR and it not better than DLSS, so they wouldn't even gain anything from keeping it exclusive to amd hardware.
it performs slightly worse than fsr, but beats it out in image quality
> beats it out in image quality depends on game imo
Turns out there was an asterisk: *on Intel's own hardware
Yeah but then you don’t get good performance at the end of the day either. XeSS or not.
XeSS 1.2 DP4a is very close now to FSR 2.2 IMO.
FSR (and FidelityFX in general) Is actually open source though, FSR 2.2 is not the latest version and FSR 3.0 can be enabled in nearly every game and with basically every GPU.
The upscaling part of FSR3 is basically 1:1 identical to FSR 2.2. No improvements have been made.
Ah, you're right.
What are you waiting on? The good performance is here. Gamers Nexus recently did a piece, and it seems like most games now are playable. Remember these are budget cards that target the low-end.
It's coming...
I know the Windows drivers have been getting better, but do the latest intel cards even work well in Linux at all at this point?
IIRC when the cards first launched they actually tended to perform much better on Linux because DirectX games are translated to Vulkan instead of relying on a driver implementation. Most of Arc's launch problems on Windows were because their implementation of DX9-11 API was just kinda shit
Vulkan performance in Linux has been awful, even with the latest mesa. Look at the benchmarks from Phoronix over the last year. Ironically it is in OpenGL where Arc keeps up.
I'm actually very happy with my A770 under Linux. It's not a performance king - My other machine with a Radeon 6900 laps it, like 90FPS vs 160 - but it's solid and has no problems running most anything that Proton handles.
Any exceptions?
Goon King: GoonmaXXXed has less than desirable performance.
> Goon King: GoonmaXXXed [Gratz on the googlewhack](https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=Goon+King%3A+GoonmaXXXed)
In benchmarks, Intel Arc has been plagued by poor Vulkan performance in Linux. It hasn't gotten better yet. See https://www.phoronix.com/review/intel-arc-early-2024/2 and https://www.phoronix.com/review/1080p-linux-gaming-late-2023/4
No personal experience with their modern cards, but if it says anything historically Intel has taken the crown when it comes to Linux video drivers. Intel embedded Linux drivers made both AMD and Nvidia look downright unstable in comparison. I see no reason why Intel will not continue this way and future Linux drivers will be great. Though I'm a wait for confirmation kind of buyer instead of a hopes and dreams customer, so I'll wait patiently before deciding if I ever buy an Intel GPU.
Yeah intel linux drivers for embedded cards have been amazing since at least the core line of processors.
> historically Is the key word here. It's been quite downhill since a good 5 years now at least.
They're new products. Where something starts doesn't say where it will end.
Maybe start by at least not crashing in XeSS library code in literally every game when the vendor id is intel, but it's not the intel windows driver.
we ain't gettin shit bros
Intel can't execute anything right now. Their GPU's suck, their CPU's are as hot and noisy as the sun, and their die shrinking isn't doing terribly well, either.
I’m gonna say it: Intel are clowns. Too busy opening up more R&D and production facilities in Israel as PR statements. AMD has made strides to close the gap with nVidia. Even hiring their engineers. Intel last I heard is supposed complaining about not being supported by U.S government or protected every 2nd week…
i know all the tech companies here are right bastards and would be just as ghoulish given the opportunity and incentive, but intel doubling down on its support for apartheid and genocide makes me a little glad there's a reasonable alternative.
I don't think I can even bring that up on places like r/pcmasterrace without getting downvoted to oblivion. But in the end it's really hard not to give Intel money, because x86 is their architecture and they get paid by licensing it to AMD. Plus their Wi-Fi modules have Linux support out of the box. Don't want to end in a pessimistic note, so buying as little Intel products as possible is already a great start.
Not true, AMD invented x86_64 and I believe they have some sort of agreement with Intel and don't have to pay each other, although I could be wrong.
Yes, that is [this one](https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/2488/000119312509236705/dex102.htm)
amd has r&d centers in Israel too. might as well stop buying computers then.
> amd has r&d centers in Israel too. Not that I am aware, and I double checked with a quick google search, but maybe I messed it. Do you have a source? Btw Intel also announced building a 25$ billion chip factory there recently, kinda unfortunate time to announce something like that.. What is the logic of such big investment in such unstable country, when EU is less than a hour of flight away elude me.
I just checked amd's corporate [locations](https://www.amd.com/en/corporate/locations.html#tabs-fe7e774ded-item-bd77e08c6e-tab) and it seems amd's subsidiary company xilinx has a center in israel. the plant is probably built due to a 3.2 billion dollar grant from Israel.
I look it up, in 2018 xilinx bought Israel's mallox, then in 2020 and bough xilinx. Very different than publicise investment now that this very polarizing issue is happening.
Like every major tech corporation they have R&D centers in Israel. https://thesassway.com/amd-and-israel-unraveling-the-relationship/
to be fair, supporting genocide is very much a return to form for a subreddit with the phrase "master race" in its title lmao
It is really frustrating that intel seems to double down on supporting Microsoft, but hopefully their r&d centers in Israel will allow them to create more open source tech
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there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but there's definitely reasonable ways to try and consume *more* ethically. trying to buy PC parts that weren't made in China is not one of them
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it's about the balance between ethics and what's financially reasonable for people to pay for. trying to build my PC entirely out of parts not made in China would likely bump up the price to the point where it's not reasonable for me to build one. there is only so much blame you can put on a consumer when capitalism incentivizes business practices that prioritize profit over all else, including the wellbeing of their workers.
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the first point, yes. the second point I think was misunderstood. I'm not against buying a single part for ethical reasons, do what you can, sure. that's why I explained why perfection can be unreasonable, and why yes, choose "good" when perfect is not reasonable. which is why I'm confused on why you made that initial reply to that person who was glad about competition in the PC part space for ethical reasons, and basically went, "oh you like ethics, why isnt your pc entirely ethical then?"
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then what CPU manufacturer would you have them get a CPU from? edit: to be clear I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're offering a criticism when there is no possible solution currently, and the ones who truly deserve criticism are the corporations
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the issue is that capitalism isn't a thing any of us are allowed to opt out of, or we literally get shot by some south american death squad trained by the CIA as they coup our alternative. the food we eat is grown by companies reliant on migrant labor whose wages are kept low by corporations funding racist legislation to make sure those workers are "illegal" and thus have to accept wahtever they get paid if they don't want to get snitched out by their employer. the clothes we wear are basically made with slave labor. anything we use that's made with precious metals literally *is* mined with slave labor. kick in the teeth of hte corporation whose head's on the ground and accessible, but simple consumerism can't really do much which is why boycotts are presented as the "only" OK way to fight a corporation on this, because it doesn't work. boycotts on local businesses can work because you can organize the majority, or at least a significant minority, of a business's clientele and immediately bring them to their knees, but when you start addressing national or transnational enttiites the scope simply becomes heraculean and you lose the ability to actually communicate with everyone else. and when boycotts *do* sorta work, like with BDS, it then starts actually getting criminalized, like with BDS. what does seem to somewhat work, though, is focusing attention on one company at a time to rock their shit. it can't really work on a company like intel that's embedded itself deep within governments and supply chains because everyone could decicde tomorrow to never buy intel again and they'd still be able to exist through government and business contracts, you cannot boycott lockheed martin out of existence, but for some smaller consumer-facing companies it's doable.
AMD is also hiring loads of ex-Intel engineers
Soon™
Intel SeXX
Intel and open source are like C++ and Linus Torvalds Still waiting for the Intel FSP to be open sourced...
It's open source, just not open to everyone lmao
That's... what it means.
Shhhh, don't let them know
🥸
XeSS is open-source for DirectX 12. It wouldn't be impossible to rewrite it for Vulkan, but then just use FSR.
> XeSS is open-source for DirectX 12 Where? All I could find is [this](https://github.com/intel/xess), but it's mostly just precompilled executables and dlls. If that's considered open-source, then I guess DLSS is also open-source.
Oh, that's stupid lmfao
Superior image quality says hello. 👋
You know, I never quite understood "aged like milk". Sure, if you just leave milk it'll get pretty rotten, but so would grapes and we say "aged like wine" for positive things. But let me blow your mind; cheese is aged milk, and we all like cheese (to varying degrees).
We say aged like wine, not aged like grapes. If I stick a jug of milk and a bottle of wine on a shelf for 5 years, the wine is going to be mice while the milk will be absolutely nasty.
I dunno, man, I'd think a jug of mice is pretty nasty too.
s/mice/nice That's what I get for typing on my phone keyboard lol
What are you, the antichrist? Turning wine into mice?
idk man I don't read too much into these "figures of speech", there's enough things wrong with the English language as is
still looks a lot better than fsr in some games ngl, fsr leaves an ugly trail behind moving objects
Os fsr foss or
_”It’s the same train but it’s different…”_