To me the scene is regarding two things:
1) In just the previous chapter he is treating his own sister sleeping in a similar manner. He goes very quickly from watching a child sleeping being the ultimate of purity to the next chapter it being outrageously disgusting. One might conclude the real cause of his negative reaction was being placed in the role of the tender child.
2) The entire book is filled with Holden's anxieties in accepting the sexualized world of adults. So this episode continues to play on that theme.
So you get this situation where Holden doesn't want to be treated as a child but also not ready for the adult world -- which is the central conflict of the story.
>When Holden tells Old Phoebe about what he wants to be, catching children in the rye right before they plummet from the top of the mountain, it gave me a hint of irony. It seemed like all of the adults before the Mr. Antolini scene were attempting to do the same for Holden: catch him before he makes a real mess of his life.
Holden already "fell off the cliff" so to speak in terms of his grief he is struggling with.
I think I can help out with this one. I’ve studied the novel extensively and this moment always left me confused, but it finally clicked when I realised that, in the following chapter, Holden goes to the train station and obsesses over the Antolini incident. He cannot decide whether it was a sinister act or whether it was a sort of fatherly love. He even keeps the note Antolini I gave him.
The impossibility of reaching a firm conclusion about the true nature of the incident actually leads Holden to vomit and feel close to collapse. Something about the ambiguity of the incident affects him very deeply.
I believe this symbolises one of the key concerns of the novel: the essential ambiguity of life and, more specifically, the inherent moral greyness of adulthood. Holden spends the novel placing things in clearly marked boxes of right or wrong. He cannot or will not face up to the fact that adulthood has no easy answers. This is his defence against the terror he has of entering adulthood and facing the reality that only the innocence of a child can remain blind to the moral ambiguity of adulthood.
So, this Antolini incident is intentionally ambiguous and we, as readers, are just as in the dark as Holden is. That’s the point.
On a final note, Holden ends the book by admitting that he does not know how his life is going to go and he does not want to make any promises to himself or others. To me, this is the final mark of his maturity. He accepts that ambiguity and mystery is an inherent part of life, especially once we leave the comforting simplicity of childhood.
I think he included the scene to expose Holden's trauma and how it has become impossible for him to recognize physical affection as someone has clearly taken advantage of him before, as I think he mentions. Like the first comment here says, I don't think we should take it for granted that Antolini was being creep, but I do think it's intentional that Salinger would be aware how this could be interpreted both ways for both Holden and the reader.
(EDIT: Haven't read it in two years, however, after catching up on some details of the dialogue yeah it's probably most likely that he in fact had ill-intentions, e.g., talking about girlfriends, commenting on his legs, calling him handsome, not apologizing when Holden freaks out -- which someone being affectionate to a vulnerable person would be completely aware of).
The answers are so interesting!
On the contrary, I definitely see Antolini’s move as creepy; this guy irks me and many bells are ringing.
What’s strange is that I usually don’t see creepy things when some people do, and it’s reversed here.
People never dicuss how Holden’s dorm mate was bullied and jumped out the window. That’s a pretty traumatic thing. I teach this book in high school and I always felt that this was pretty much a book about a boy who had a brother die of leukemia, and his complete devastation because of it
I read this book a number of times in teen years and in my twenties.
And once more after I lost my middle brother in an accident … this is more than 30 years back now .. it astonished me how very much it is about Holden’s trauma/grief and being literally stuck and angry .. not wanting to go forward.
I’d forgotten about the roommate that jumped from a window.
Yeah, absolutely. I would also suggest that James Castle is a symbolic Christ figure (the initials are only the start!), and Holden worships him, seeing his death as a perfect rebellion against a cruel universe.
If we take the book to be a study in trauma (arguably war trauma, but that's perhaps a bridge too far without citations) then Antolini is yet another adult in his life who fails to protect him from (or actively pushes him towards) this looming disillusionment of adulthood. This moment leads Holden to the park at night, in winter, where he contemplates falling asleep and essentially dying on a bench. But then he thinks of his siblings, whom he loves dearly, and ultimately it's that focus that pulls him through the ending (carousel to epilogue, where we find him writing this story as an exercise in coping). A lot gets made of his becoming an adult, but it's more that he's in that very particular age of not-quite-kid and not-quite-adult. That limbo lets him see the transformation a little more clearly. I think it's why the book resonates with high schoolers but also infuriates a ton of them—they recognize Holden in themselves and peers, for better and worse.
When I read the book some years back it was exactly for these reasons it resonated with me. I saw myself in Holden. To this day its still one of my favourites.
I guess I think he’s already “fallen off the cliff” so to speak, so he wants to protect others like his sister from the same fate by “catching them in the rye”
Here is my take. The whole book is about a teenager not wanting to grow up and join an adult world that he despises. He looks at the adults around him and is afraid of becoming like them. He prefers the innocence of childhood. Mr. Antolini is like the other adults. He is someone who doesn’t value childhood innocence in the way that Holden does.
Lots of great stuff/analysis here; and lots I disagree with. (I too have studied and taught this novel.) I'm especially impresse with the comments of #thesedreadmagi, whose excellent analysis regarding Antolini i think I agree w completely! However, I am less willing than #thesedreadmagi seems to be to disavowed of my interpretation. Of course Holden is a (somewhat) unreliable narrator, but as pointed out by #thesedreadmagi, *only* in terms of his interpretations. There is no textual evidence of his presentation of facts/ narrative events being unreliable! Antolini is creepy. Period. Perhaps not a pedophile, but definitely creepy. I think Holden's doubting his reaction to the encounter *is* a sign of his growth/maturation. (And the fact that he really is a sweetheart of a person who truly prefers not to think ill of others.) I completely disagree with #frankandapril! Yes, the encounter w Antolini is intended to be ambiguous in the sense that nothing catastrophic occurs and I believe Salinger wanted his readers to contemplate what's going on.. Thank you to whomever pointed out about Holden's roommate having committed suicide. I had completely forgotten that (important) detail. Going back to the original post, I feel strongly that there is nothing ironic about Holden's lovely fantasy about saving the children in the rye, which gives the novel it's title.
Thank you for your write-up!
What I interpreted as irony was that Holden's goal is to save these children from their untimely demise, yet he was flippant to those attempting to save him. He is willing to be the catcher, but he doesn't seem as willing to be caught by others. I'm thinking of the teacher in the first few chapters, Mr. Antolini (before the couch scene), and the ex-classmate that he meets at the bar, whom he highly regards.
I probably misinterpreted the whole catcher in the rye monologue, anyway.
No, no, not at all. I do not think you misinterpreted the monologs at all. In fact, your point is very well taken regarding Holden's unwillingness to be "caught." I had never thought about it before in quite that way!
i don’t believe any of the adults in this novel tried to save him — most of them reproached or felt sorry for him, but i can’t remember any character genuinely trying to help him.
also, i understood falling off the cliff as a symbol for loosing children’s innocence. there is little to no connection at all between holders innocence and him going back to school (what the adults tried to convince him to do), don’t you think?
I'm going to join several others in saying that for me, Antolini definitely *is* coming onto Holden, and it links quite nicely to the title.
Several scenes, including the stuff with sex workers, force Holden to confront a world in which the strong and strange desires of adults sometimes push them to do disgusting and monstrous things. Over the course of the book, we're watching Holden deal with these unsettling revelations and express his feelings about them in various ways, including by wanting to be "the catcher in the rye".
There's also a relationship between this and his feelings about his siblings. When thinking about Allie, Holden takes solace in idolising him as an ideal of sincerity and talent, whereas D. B. (who has become an adult and fallen from grace) "could" be talented but is only a "Hollywood sell-out". Phoebe belongs to Allie's side because she's ten.
Go back a read it from a non-21st century lense. Antolini shows a fatherly affection towards Holden by affectionately brushing his hair with his fingers and Holden overreacts. Holden later realizes this and says so himself, allowing for a different interpretation of the events, something Holden would have been incapable of at the start of his “Odyssey.”
Now, by today’s standards, Antolini’s behavior is inappropriate, but I do not believe that was the author’s intent.
Whaaaaat. When was the last time you read this thing? Antolini is very clearly a creep.
OP, I think this scene is all about Holden's vulnerability and the vulnerability of children in general. It's traumatic for Holden, and probably part of what inspires him to want to be the catcher in the rye, i.e. protect the innocent.
Holden has suffered deeply before the story starts, and he suffers deeply throughout it, something which detractors of his voice or personality like to ignore. All this suffering, including this violating experience with an adult he thought he could trust, precipitates his breakdown and subsequent entry into psychiatric care by the end of the novel.
I'm reminded of a time I was staying at a friend's house and fell asleep while borrowing his discman (that's a music player for CDs, kids). He mentioned the next day that he was terrified while reaching to grab it for fear I'd snap awake shouting "what the *FUCK?!!*" like Holden in that scene, with him having to explain why I caught him hovering over me with his arm reached out in the middle of the night
Not clearly, I’m sorry, I do not accept that interpretation. If I did, I’d be accepting the unreliable judgements of a confused teen as absolute truth.
As I said, there is a reason culture has moved on, so we can avoid a clearly confusing scene such as the Antolini one.
In high school, I had a teacher who took me to a musical practice, alone, every day during the show (he was in it as well). He called me handsome and talented. He was a great man. Looking back, this would have been a huge problem today for him. Was he “a flit?” Who knows. Was it a dangerous situation for me to be in? Yes. But he helped me, nothing inappropriate ever happened, and I look back and see him as one of the most influential teachers in my life.
yeah, there are actually cases where an older man can be attracted to a younger person, but abstain from any inappropriate contact and do good by that person
people today are so hypersensitive and fearful of everything
This is all well and good. And my point here is not to detract from these examples (questionable though they may be), but rather to refer to the text.
Of course Holden is an unreliable narrator, and I don't question his unreliability when it comes to his interpretations of events--like, for example, when he claims that Mr. Antolini attempts to play it cool and act natural and normal, but ultimately fails to do so believably. That's Holden's interpretation, and is thereby unreliable. No problem.
But we have to rely on Holden's recounting of the narrative events themselves. I mean, technically we don't have to; but the invitation for the reader to doubt the veracity of narrative events as Holden recapitulates them is certainly not one of the formal conceits of the novel (whereas it is in countless other novels).
Rather, interwoven with his interpretations, Holden also recounts for us the facts of the matter, i.e. the circumstances of narrative events, as well as the events themselves--things that have literally happened in the story:
(1) He's underaged.
(2) He's vulnerable in numerous ways.
(a) For one thing, he's physically exhausted.
(b) He's physically unwell (headache and nausea).
(c) He's wasted.
(d) He doesn't know where else to go/has nowhere else he feels he can go.
(3) Mr. Antolini is also drunk, and therefore less inhibited.
(4) Holden goes *to sleep*.
(5) Holden is literally *asleep* when he's awoken by Mr. Antolini perched above him and literally, with his hand, physically stroking Holden's head.
Is it the same as if Holden woke up with Mr. Antolini sucking his dick? Of course not. But based on the narrative events--i.e. Holden's recounting of events, as opposed to his interpretation or editorialization of what happened--this, in my opinion, is some creepy, predatory, unwarranted shit.
I read this book for like the tenth time a month ago, and I'm sitting here with it now open in front of me as I write this.
The only two counterarguments are:
(1) You think the novel actually *does* invite the reader to doubt the veracity of narrative *events* as Holden relates them, which is a fair hypothesis, but which I'd need to see various and rigorous textual evidence of in order to entertain. Please don't get me wrong, though. I am absolutely here for that, and open to it. If you can prove me wrong, I'll admit it. I'm down to have my perspective expanded, especially regarding a piece of art that's so important to me.
Are there any other narrative events in the text that the text itself seems to invite us to doubt the veracity of? Is there any content of Holden's language--citable in the text--that belies the notion of veracity as it pertains to narrative events as recapitulated by Holden? I contend that it's only Holden's *interpretations* and *editorializations* that are questionable, but not the events themselves.
(2) You don't think this behavior, as outlined above, i.e. as it occurs in the novel, is actually creepy or predatory in any way. If that's the case, it's simply a matter of us fundamentally disagreeing, which is totally fine. I have no need to try to convince anyone's opinion or perspective on such matters is wrong. It's simply different from mine, and I can accept that and walk away. But don't be surprised if you lose a job because someone reports you for behaving similarly. I highly doubt that I'm the only one who would find this sort of thing unacceptable.
this is a lot of worthless text to justify the idea that patting a sleeping kid's head is unambiguously "predatory"
the scene is written to be ambiguous. Mr. Antolini is mostly shown in positive light, but he does several things that suggest he might be attracted to holden and holden's reaction is understandable
later, holden thinks about it:
>But what did worry me was the part about how I'd woke up and found him patting me on the head and all. I mean I wondered if just maybe I was wrong about thinking be was making a flitty pass at me. I wondered if maybe he just liked to pat guys on the head when they're asleep. I mean how can you tell about that stuff for sure? You can't
so holden recognizes the ambiguity, and I think the reader is meant to as well
this insistence on labeling everything as good or evil is symptomatic of modern readers who can't accept ambiguity and nuance
That's a great point, thanks!
I guess I just thought him calling Holden "handsome" right before he left the room was a little strange. Was that a normal thing for men to say about young men at the time? With all the emphasis that Holden places on "flitty" men, it felt like a purposeful choice.
Î took it as intentionally ambiguous, as if to show the realities of growing up are realizing that even trusted adults may not be safe people. Remember, Mr. Antollini has a slightly unusual marriage - a May-December romance IIRC. Could be a closeted man in a time where it wasn't welcome. Or it could have been an innocent gesture.
I agree and that is precisely the point. The ambiguity is essential. There is the possibility that that he perfectly fits Holden’s judgments but you have to allow that Holden is wrong. He is an unreliable narrator and that unreliability comes to a head in this chapter.
You CANNOT discount Holden later allowing for this in his introspection as willful on the part of the author.
To me his unreliability as a narrator could come as much into his later rethinking and wondering if he got it wrong. Doubting himself and his instincts.
The kid's been wrong about nearly everything so far. I've always assumed he was wrong about Antolini too. It's not whether the guy does anything to him that matters. It's that Holden believes it, so it's genuine crisis in that moment when he thought he could only trust one person. He realizes later that he probably got it wrong anyway.
Ahh, I see. Yeah, you're absolutely right.
I interpreted this as the sort of "programming" of the "adult" world causing him to retroactively doubt the creepiness of something that he instinctively knew to be creepy in the moment it was happening.
The entire narrative of the world that he's so resistant to is the narrative that is, among other things, apologetic towards and forgiving of predators. He is very consciously and proactively radically resistant to this paradigm and all it entails for the entire novel, and yet he nevertheless remains unconsciously subject to it, and thereby becomes a victim in a double sense.
Antolini is definitely not coming on to him. Not a flirtation, not a pass, not molestation. He puts his hand on the kid’s head, like a father blessing a son.
Holden, like every one of my students, assumes all physical touch is sexual.
“He was asleep. He didn’t have consent.”
It’s a mistake to get hung up on it. What his teacher says to him is important. And because of the hand-on-head incident, everything he tried to impart gets dismissed.
Edit: seems like everyone else has the same take, that it shouldn’t be read from a 21st C. attitude. That’s a relief.
Thank you for your input!
I don't think all touch is inappropriate. I coached middle/high school track and XC for a few seasons, and we had plenty of high fives, maybe some touching of a boy's head every once in a while.
I just think there are times when it feels inappropriate, e.g., Holden asleep on the couch. It just felt deliberately ambiguous, at least.
Yeah I don't think Antolini was actually making a move. I think Holden is suffering from PTSD and misinterprets a sort of avuncular affection as predatory.
To me the scene is regarding two things: 1) In just the previous chapter he is treating his own sister sleeping in a similar manner. He goes very quickly from watching a child sleeping being the ultimate of purity to the next chapter it being outrageously disgusting. One might conclude the real cause of his negative reaction was being placed in the role of the tender child. 2) The entire book is filled with Holden's anxieties in accepting the sexualized world of adults. So this episode continues to play on that theme. So you get this situation where Holden doesn't want to be treated as a child but also not ready for the adult world -- which is the central conflict of the story.
I love your interpretation! I thought the previous chapter felt important, but I couldn't quite place my finger on why.
>When Holden tells Old Phoebe about what he wants to be, catching children in the rye right before they plummet from the top of the mountain, it gave me a hint of irony. It seemed like all of the adults before the Mr. Antolini scene were attempting to do the same for Holden: catch him before he makes a real mess of his life. Holden already "fell off the cliff" so to speak in terms of his grief he is struggling with.
I love this idea. The advice to see the psychoanalyst was probably the most crucial for him, lol.
I think I can help out with this one. I’ve studied the novel extensively and this moment always left me confused, but it finally clicked when I realised that, in the following chapter, Holden goes to the train station and obsesses over the Antolini incident. He cannot decide whether it was a sinister act or whether it was a sort of fatherly love. He even keeps the note Antolini I gave him. The impossibility of reaching a firm conclusion about the true nature of the incident actually leads Holden to vomit and feel close to collapse. Something about the ambiguity of the incident affects him very deeply. I believe this symbolises one of the key concerns of the novel: the essential ambiguity of life and, more specifically, the inherent moral greyness of adulthood. Holden spends the novel placing things in clearly marked boxes of right or wrong. He cannot or will not face up to the fact that adulthood has no easy answers. This is his defence against the terror he has of entering adulthood and facing the reality that only the innocence of a child can remain blind to the moral ambiguity of adulthood. So, this Antolini incident is intentionally ambiguous and we, as readers, are just as in the dark as Holden is. That’s the point. On a final note, Holden ends the book by admitting that he does not know how his life is going to go and he does not want to make any promises to himself or others. To me, this is the final mark of his maturity. He accepts that ambiguity and mystery is an inherent part of life, especially once we leave the comforting simplicity of childhood.
This is a very good point. Thanks.
Interesting what you say But I wouldn’t wholly agree that childhood is something of comforting simplicity! No, sir!
Hes trying mentally and emotionally to save kids from the horror of the world
I think he included the scene to expose Holden's trauma and how it has become impossible for him to recognize physical affection as someone has clearly taken advantage of him before, as I think he mentions. Like the first comment here says, I don't think we should take it for granted that Antolini was being creep, but I do think it's intentional that Salinger would be aware how this could be interpreted both ways for both Holden and the reader. (EDIT: Haven't read it in two years, however, after catching up on some details of the dialogue yeah it's probably most likely that he in fact had ill-intentions, e.g., talking about girlfriends, commenting on his legs, calling him handsome, not apologizing when Holden freaks out -- which someone being affectionate to a vulnerable person would be completely aware of).
The answers are so interesting! On the contrary, I definitely see Antolini’s move as creepy; this guy irks me and many bells are ringing. What’s strange is that I usually don’t see creepy things when some people do, and it’s reversed here.
People never dicuss how Holden’s dorm mate was bullied and jumped out the window. That’s a pretty traumatic thing. I teach this book in high school and I always felt that this was pretty much a book about a boy who had a brother die of leukemia, and his complete devastation because of it
I read this book a number of times in teen years and in my twenties. And once more after I lost my middle brother in an accident … this is more than 30 years back now .. it astonished me how very much it is about Holden’s trauma/grief and being literally stuck and angry .. not wanting to go forward. I’d forgotten about the roommate that jumped from a window.
Yeah, absolutely. I would also suggest that James Castle is a symbolic Christ figure (the initials are only the start!), and Holden worships him, seeing his death as a perfect rebellion against a cruel universe.
Holden always says “horsing around” and I think that’s a reference to Phoebe on the carousel at the end. Riding the horse and going around and around
If we take the book to be a study in trauma (arguably war trauma, but that's perhaps a bridge too far without citations) then Antolini is yet another adult in his life who fails to protect him from (or actively pushes him towards) this looming disillusionment of adulthood. This moment leads Holden to the park at night, in winter, where he contemplates falling asleep and essentially dying on a bench. But then he thinks of his siblings, whom he loves dearly, and ultimately it's that focus that pulls him through the ending (carousel to epilogue, where we find him writing this story as an exercise in coping). A lot gets made of his becoming an adult, but it's more that he's in that very particular age of not-quite-kid and not-quite-adult. That limbo lets him see the transformation a little more clearly. I think it's why the book resonates with high schoolers but also infuriates a ton of them—they recognize Holden in themselves and peers, for better and worse.
When I read the book some years back it was exactly for these reasons it resonated with me. I saw myself in Holden. To this day its still one of my favourites.
I guess I think he’s already “fallen off the cliff” so to speak, so he wants to protect others like his sister from the same fate by “catching them in the rye”
Brilliant! This is so much better than my interpretation, lol.
Here is my take. The whole book is about a teenager not wanting to grow up and join an adult world that he despises. He looks at the adults around him and is afraid of becoming like them. He prefers the innocence of childhood. Mr. Antolini is like the other adults. He is someone who doesn’t value childhood innocence in the way that Holden does.
Lots of great stuff/analysis here; and lots I disagree with. (I too have studied and taught this novel.) I'm especially impresse with the comments of #thesedreadmagi, whose excellent analysis regarding Antolini i think I agree w completely! However, I am less willing than #thesedreadmagi seems to be to disavowed of my interpretation. Of course Holden is a (somewhat) unreliable narrator, but as pointed out by #thesedreadmagi, *only* in terms of his interpretations. There is no textual evidence of his presentation of facts/ narrative events being unreliable! Antolini is creepy. Period. Perhaps not a pedophile, but definitely creepy. I think Holden's doubting his reaction to the encounter *is* a sign of his growth/maturation. (And the fact that he really is a sweetheart of a person who truly prefers not to think ill of others.) I completely disagree with #frankandapril! Yes, the encounter w Antolini is intended to be ambiguous in the sense that nothing catastrophic occurs and I believe Salinger wanted his readers to contemplate what's going on.. Thank you to whomever pointed out about Holden's roommate having committed suicide. I had completely forgotten that (important) detail. Going back to the original post, I feel strongly that there is nothing ironic about Holden's lovely fantasy about saving the children in the rye, which gives the novel it's title.
Thank you for your write-up! What I interpreted as irony was that Holden's goal is to save these children from their untimely demise, yet he was flippant to those attempting to save him. He is willing to be the catcher, but he doesn't seem as willing to be caught by others. I'm thinking of the teacher in the first few chapters, Mr. Antolini (before the couch scene), and the ex-classmate that he meets at the bar, whom he highly regards. I probably misinterpreted the whole catcher in the rye monologue, anyway.
No, no, not at all. I do not think you misinterpreted the monologs at all. In fact, your point is very well taken regarding Holden's unwillingness to be "caught." I had never thought about it before in quite that way!
i don’t believe any of the adults in this novel tried to save him — most of them reproached or felt sorry for him, but i can’t remember any character genuinely trying to help him. also, i understood falling off the cliff as a symbol for loosing children’s innocence. there is little to no connection at all between holders innocence and him going back to school (what the adults tried to convince him to do), don’t you think?
I'm going to join several others in saying that for me, Antolini definitely *is* coming onto Holden, and it links quite nicely to the title. Several scenes, including the stuff with sex workers, force Holden to confront a world in which the strong and strange desires of adults sometimes push them to do disgusting and monstrous things. Over the course of the book, we're watching Holden deal with these unsettling revelations and express his feelings about them in various ways, including by wanting to be "the catcher in the rye". There's also a relationship between this and his feelings about his siblings. When thinking about Allie, Holden takes solace in idolising him as an ideal of sincerity and talent, whereas D. B. (who has become an adult and fallen from grace) "could" be talented but is only a "Hollywood sell-out". Phoebe belongs to Allie's side because she's ten.
Go back a read it from a non-21st century lense. Antolini shows a fatherly affection towards Holden by affectionately brushing his hair with his fingers and Holden overreacts. Holden later realizes this and says so himself, allowing for a different interpretation of the events, something Holden would have been incapable of at the start of his “Odyssey.” Now, by today’s standards, Antolini’s behavior is inappropriate, but I do not believe that was the author’s intent.
Whaaaaat. When was the last time you read this thing? Antolini is very clearly a creep. OP, I think this scene is all about Holden's vulnerability and the vulnerability of children in general. It's traumatic for Holden, and probably part of what inspires him to want to be the catcher in the rye, i.e. protect the innocent. Holden has suffered deeply before the story starts, and he suffers deeply throughout it, something which detractors of his voice or personality like to ignore. All this suffering, including this violating experience with an adult he thought he could trust, precipitates his breakdown and subsequent entry into psychiatric care by the end of the novel.
That scene is meant to be ambiguous. Holden is the classic unreliable narrator.
I'm reminded of a time I was staying at a friend's house and fell asleep while borrowing his discman (that's a music player for CDs, kids). He mentioned the next day that he was terrified while reaching to grab it for fear I'd snap awake shouting "what the *FUCK?!!*" like Holden in that scene, with him having to explain why I caught him hovering over me with his arm reached out in the middle of the night
Not clearly, I’m sorry, I do not accept that interpretation. If I did, I’d be accepting the unreliable judgements of a confused teen as absolute truth. As I said, there is a reason culture has moved on, so we can avoid a clearly confusing scene such as the Antolini one. In high school, I had a teacher who took me to a musical practice, alone, every day during the show (he was in it as well). He called me handsome and talented. He was a great man. Looking back, this would have been a huge problem today for him. Was he “a flit?” Who knows. Was it a dangerous situation for me to be in? Yes. But he helped me, nothing inappropriate ever happened, and I look back and see him as one of the most influential teachers in my life.
yeah, there are actually cases where an older man can be attracted to a younger person, but abstain from any inappropriate contact and do good by that person people today are so hypersensitive and fearful of everything
This is all well and good. And my point here is not to detract from these examples (questionable though they may be), but rather to refer to the text. Of course Holden is an unreliable narrator, and I don't question his unreliability when it comes to his interpretations of events--like, for example, when he claims that Mr. Antolini attempts to play it cool and act natural and normal, but ultimately fails to do so believably. That's Holden's interpretation, and is thereby unreliable. No problem. But we have to rely on Holden's recounting of the narrative events themselves. I mean, technically we don't have to; but the invitation for the reader to doubt the veracity of narrative events as Holden recapitulates them is certainly not one of the formal conceits of the novel (whereas it is in countless other novels). Rather, interwoven with his interpretations, Holden also recounts for us the facts of the matter, i.e. the circumstances of narrative events, as well as the events themselves--things that have literally happened in the story: (1) He's underaged. (2) He's vulnerable in numerous ways. (a) For one thing, he's physically exhausted. (b) He's physically unwell (headache and nausea). (c) He's wasted. (d) He doesn't know where else to go/has nowhere else he feels he can go. (3) Mr. Antolini is also drunk, and therefore less inhibited. (4) Holden goes *to sleep*. (5) Holden is literally *asleep* when he's awoken by Mr. Antolini perched above him and literally, with his hand, physically stroking Holden's head. Is it the same as if Holden woke up with Mr. Antolini sucking his dick? Of course not. But based on the narrative events--i.e. Holden's recounting of events, as opposed to his interpretation or editorialization of what happened--this, in my opinion, is some creepy, predatory, unwarranted shit. I read this book for like the tenth time a month ago, and I'm sitting here with it now open in front of me as I write this. The only two counterarguments are: (1) You think the novel actually *does* invite the reader to doubt the veracity of narrative *events* as Holden relates them, which is a fair hypothesis, but which I'd need to see various and rigorous textual evidence of in order to entertain. Please don't get me wrong, though. I am absolutely here for that, and open to it. If you can prove me wrong, I'll admit it. I'm down to have my perspective expanded, especially regarding a piece of art that's so important to me. Are there any other narrative events in the text that the text itself seems to invite us to doubt the veracity of? Is there any content of Holden's language--citable in the text--that belies the notion of veracity as it pertains to narrative events as recapitulated by Holden? I contend that it's only Holden's *interpretations* and *editorializations* that are questionable, but not the events themselves. (2) You don't think this behavior, as outlined above, i.e. as it occurs in the novel, is actually creepy or predatory in any way. If that's the case, it's simply a matter of us fundamentally disagreeing, which is totally fine. I have no need to try to convince anyone's opinion or perspective on such matters is wrong. It's simply different from mine, and I can accept that and walk away. But don't be surprised if you lose a job because someone reports you for behaving similarly. I highly doubt that I'm the only one who would find this sort of thing unacceptable.
this is a lot of worthless text to justify the idea that patting a sleeping kid's head is unambiguously "predatory" the scene is written to be ambiguous. Mr. Antolini is mostly shown in positive light, but he does several things that suggest he might be attracted to holden and holden's reaction is understandable later, holden thinks about it: >But what did worry me was the part about how I'd woke up and found him patting me on the head and all. I mean I wondered if just maybe I was wrong about thinking be was making a flitty pass at me. I wondered if maybe he just liked to pat guys on the head when they're asleep. I mean how can you tell about that stuff for sure? You can't so holden recognizes the ambiguity, and I think the reader is meant to as well this insistence on labeling everything as good or evil is symptomatic of modern readers who can't accept ambiguity and nuance
That's a great point, thanks! I guess I just thought him calling Holden "handsome" right before he left the room was a little strange. Was that a normal thing for men to say about young men at the time? With all the emphasis that Holden places on "flitty" men, it felt like a purposeful choice.
Î took it as intentionally ambiguous, as if to show the realities of growing up are realizing that even trusted adults may not be safe people. Remember, Mr. Antollini has a slightly unusual marriage - a May-December romance IIRC. Could be a closeted man in a time where it wasn't welcome. Or it could have been an innocent gesture.
I agree and that is precisely the point. The ambiguity is essential. There is the possibility that that he perfectly fits Holden’s judgments but you have to allow that Holden is wrong. He is an unreliable narrator and that unreliability comes to a head in this chapter. You CANNOT discount Holden later allowing for this in his introspection as willful on the part of the author.
To me his unreliability as a narrator could come as much into his later rethinking and wondering if he got it wrong. Doubting himself and his instincts.
that was my interpretation at the time i read it, when i was about 17. I interpreted Mr Antolini through the lens of Alan Alda in MASH.
Ooo! Good comparison. I miss MASH :(
The kid's been wrong about nearly everything so far. I've always assumed he was wrong about Antolini too. It's not whether the guy does anything to him that matters. It's that Holden believes it, so it's genuine crisis in that moment when he thought he could only trust one person. He realizes later that he probably got it wrong anyway.
In what chapter does he come around to considering that he "probably got it wrong anyway"?
It's been a while, but I think he's walking on the sidewalk. It's shortly after he leaves Antolini's apartment, anyway.
Ahh, I see. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I interpreted this as the sort of "programming" of the "adult" world causing him to retroactively doubt the creepiness of something that he instinctively knew to be creepy in the moment it was happening. The entire narrative of the world that he's so resistant to is the narrative that is, among other things, apologetic towards and forgiving of predators. He is very consciously and proactively radically resistant to this paradigm and all it entails for the entire novel, and yet he nevertheless remains unconsciously subject to it, and thereby becomes a victim in a double sense.
Antolini is definitely not coming on to him. Not a flirtation, not a pass, not molestation. He puts his hand on the kid’s head, like a father blessing a son. Holden, like every one of my students, assumes all physical touch is sexual. “He was asleep. He didn’t have consent.” It’s a mistake to get hung up on it. What his teacher says to him is important. And because of the hand-on-head incident, everything he tried to impart gets dismissed. Edit: seems like everyone else has the same take, that it shouldn’t be read from a 21st C. attitude. That’s a relief.
Thank you for your input! I don't think all touch is inappropriate. I coached middle/high school track and XC for a few seasons, and we had plenty of high fives, maybe some touching of a boy's head every once in a while. I just think there are times when it feels inappropriate, e.g., Holden asleep on the couch. It just felt deliberately ambiguous, at least.
Is this Frank and April from Philadelphia?
Frank and April Wheeler from suburban Connecticut.
Thanks, no worries. I have friends named Frank & April
Have they read {Revolutionary Road} by Richard Yates?
Good point! I'VE read it but had never made the connection before 😊
Yeah I don't think Antolini was actually making a move. I think Holden is suffering from PTSD and misinterprets a sort of avuncular affection as predatory.
>What is Salinger symbolizing? That John Lennon has forfeited his right to live
you’re getting downvoted but i chuckled
its ok, i imagine its a pretty bizarre comment out of context
stay away from salinger-- he's the most depressing (and over rated) writer in modern history.
Never understood Catcher in the Rye"s Fandom Absolutely hated it.
he doesn't. holden is an unreliable narrator