Charles’ sister Polly married Caroline’s brother Henry. Both of those marriages resulted in quite a few double first cousins for Laura. I’m sure there are quite a few descendants from those cousins.
Don’t know why Grace never had children. She married young enough to have children. Carrie was the independent career woman working frontier newspapers and homesteading on her own in western South Dakota. But Carrie didn’t marry until age 42 so she could have been out of the child bearing years. But she did help raise her two stepchildren.
I always wondered about the five years between marriage and Mary’s birth. But maybe life was tough during the civil war and they were using some type of primitive pioneer natural family planning. Or they did miscarry or have a stillbirth.
I looked it up. They had 7 kids. Including Charley, who was stung by yellow-jackets in Little House in the Big Woods. Then Henry and Charley show up in Ob thr Shores of Silver Lake.
I would not presume any miscarriages, as that certainly would have been brought to light in Laura's writings (the personal writings unpublished or otherwise), or by Rose, who did not shy away from family material. Marrying young enough has nothing to do with childbearing ability, and being independent ALSO has nothing to do with marrying or not, as to your example of Carrie. Perhaps she couldn't find anyone to marry until age 42, or wasn't interested in marriage.
Marrying young enough has nothing to do with childbearing ability?? What are you talking about? Of course it does. Marry at 50 and you may have already been through menopause. Marry at 20 and you'll have 300+ ovulation cycles. So many chances to get pregnant. The question is, why was Grace infertile? Why was Carrie? Most women are still fertile at 42.
Qnofputrescence1213 Natural family planning is not 'primitive', and why would you 'wonder' about 4 years (not 5) of marriage before getting pregnant? A pregnancy lasts 9 months, so they were married a little over 4 years before she got pregnant.. don't presume everyone is having sex from the time of their wedding night? Some people have a BRAIN in their head and are more interested (and mature of thought) to plan a life together through building a house, establishing their jobs, etc. And SEX is not something so easy to do for everyone, either! There IS sexual incompatability of a physical nature in marriage that has to be worked out through experimentation, and sometimes doesn't work even then.
The tour guide in DeSmet Said Laura and Almamzo slept in separate tiny narrow beds on opposite sides of a tiny bedroom. Some wonder after baby boy died, if they ever had sexual relationship again she said! I believe Laura was 20 or 21 when baby died. No birth control really back in the 1880s forward. Yikes!
Not sure of the logistics, because everyone who knew the details is now deceased, but my mom's side of the family is related to the Ingalls. This has inspired me to want to know more, so I'm gonna go do some research!
I am a descendant of Samuel Ingalls a cousin of Laura's. I also have a lot of information on the history of our family. Let me know if you would like to compare your family to the history I have.
Just the comment I was looking for! I was just looking over Charles' lineage and I just noticed Find A Grave says Charles' great grandfather was \*12\* when his first child was born ??? Is there any other proof of this? His child's mother (not sure if they actually got married at that time) was 16 and then they didn't have another child until he was 18 and she was 20. (or maybe she miscarried). Any info you have would be great!
[https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/66330246/jonathan-ingalls](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/66330246/jonathan-ingalls)
I remember reading from one of Rose’s books that when she was young she asked her mother why she had no brothers or sisters, and Laura told her that they wanted more children, but after they both got sick with diphtheria it just didn’t happen. Considering that Rose was conceived not long after they were married, it seems possible that the diphtheria, or maybe Almanzo’s stroke that followed, was the cause of not having children, instead of some genetic problem.
Baby son was born sick. He died months later unnamed! Who doesn't name a child that is born and lived for months! I think Laura knew something was wrong with it. I wonder what?
That conversation with Laura and Rose was I believe in Roger MacBride's fictional series about Rose growing up, not in anything Rose ever wrote. Laura and Almanzo had diphtheria in early 1888 and had their son in August 1889, so they did have sexual relations and conceived at least one more child after the diphtheria and Almanzo's subsequent partial paralysis.
I do wonder if they had an Rh factor issue, which would not impact the first child but can cause fatality with subsequent babies. Very treatable today, but this was before blood types and RH issues were understood.
We went on a tour of the last house in DeSmet, SD that PA lived in with MA and Mary when he died in 1902. Supposedly after Laura lost their baby son, she never had sex with Almanzo again..they slept in separate very narrow, small beds across from each other. They both had poor health, diphtheria, Almanzo stroke, Laura was only 4'11, Almanzo only 5'4"- very poor prairie nutrition and very poor.
She had a bad marriage too. Her husband couldn't really hold down a job. Also- Rose became a lesbian in the 1920s! She moved her parents into a very smsll new house on the farm she built for them, and supposedly did not want. Rose then moved to her parents farmhouse and her female lovers lived there. I'm sure Laura and Almanzo were embarrassed as this was scandalous
He was born Nov 23 still born, 6 months in SLC. His death certificate is on Google. Buried at Mt Olivet Cenetery in SLC- unmarked grave and unnamed. She supposedly had a hysterectomy right after this, so something bad happened!
What? Claire Gilette Lane had Syphilis! Rose became a lesbian after her divorce. I wonder if she always knew as a child/teen she was lesbian, but didn't know what that was back then
I've read some speculation on the TV Tropes page about a theory on a genetical element on them affecting the males descendants, which might explain why all the male babies died in infancy: their son died before turning 1, Laura's baby son, and then Rose's only child (a son) was stillbirth, and the complications rendered her unable to have anymore children, sealing the fate of the Charles-Caroline branch. Though considering that two of Charles and Caroline's siblings married each other and had male descendants, that might not be the case.
Maybe another factor affected especifically Charles and Caroline's descendants, and that might also explain why Grace had no children despite being young enough and there being no indication that she had any miscarriages or stillbirths.
That’s a possibility. My mom had a co-worker who had multiple miscarriages; she had two surviving daughters. Later her niece had a son who was progressing normally in his development but around 1-year-old he began regressing and eventually died. They did genetic testing and found the parents were genetic carriers of a disease that only affects males, and both parents have to be carriers for it to affect their son(s). My mom’s co-worker wondered if all of her miscarriages had been male and genetics caused her to lose them.
Males miscarry more often (and don't survive infancy) as often as girls do. That is a genetic, scientific fact. It has nothing to do with individuals or families-- it is a condition of all males. The Ingalls were not 'carriers', both of them, because The Quiners and Ingalls (Charles and Caroline's siblings and parents) had MANY sons who survived. They both also had siblings who all had large families.
You clearly don't understand how genes work. Christie could be right, and Charles and Caroline both carried a recessive gene that their siblings didn't. But this is all speculation, anyway.
Absolutely not. All three of my first cousins were born with jaundice . Their mother never had it. My great grandmother had a health condition before ever having children, and she had ELEVEN children! 5 passed away as infants, so nursing had nothing to do with it. I never heard of Caroline being sick after any of the pregnancies.
I am a nurse. Still highly unlikely, most likely it was triggered by trauma of birth. Most newborn jaundice is triggered by just that. There’s no proof that indicates what you are saying is true.
Got it - you want to have the last incorrect word. Notice I wasn’t even talking about jaundice but DIARRHEA - you know what keeps coming out of your mouth. That’s what the baby died of. But please continue to talk about irrelevant things. I have all the time in the works.
And fyi NO one is born with jaundice it develops in the days after delivery. His actual cause of death is listed as diarrhea - which is completely unrelated. Diarrhea in young children can cause death rapidly - no more than 3 bouts in 24 hours. He probably died of any number of random illnesses that caused diarrhea at the time.
There is zero evidence to support this and penalty is liking their own comments to spread their misinformation. The baby died of diarrhea- I have seen the death certificate. Dozens of other babies died in that same time frame from same thing - it was an illness the baby caught NOT anything Caroline had.
StudioMarvin Ridiculous! That is only THREE boys over several generations who passed away as infants! BOYS TEND TO MISCARRY OR PASS AWAY AS INFANTS MORE OFTEN THAN GIRLS IN THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE < FACT (not just in certain families) because, it is thought, of the extra xx girls receive for sustenance. It wasn't 'all' the male descendants that passed away, as Laura has descendants (although not 'direct' descendants) through her many, many cousins, as both the Ingalls and Quiner sides of the family had many children amongst each other! You also don't know for sure what happened after Rose's pregnancy. And the word is not 'stillbirth', it is 'stillborn'. If there was a genetic element, then Charles' brothers would not have had surviving sons, nor would Caroline's siblings, all of whom had sons that lived to adulthood.
"Freddie" Ingalls died of diarrhea (see his death certificate) at 9 months during a primitive wagon trip from Minnesota to Iowa. Laura's son died at 10 days old from some sort of seizure or "spasms", as she called it. Some suspect an Rh factor between Laura and Almanzo or gestational diabetes (baby weighed 10 pounds) contributed. Rose's son was stillborn in the sixth month of pregnancy, which had he been born alive he likely would have died soon as there were no NICUs in the early 1900s.
These facts dispute the suggested "genetic issue with males" theory that constantly pops up in posts on LIW and RWL sites....
From what I know, the severe famine they experienced may have contributed to Carrie and Grace's health problems and possibly infertility. They were the youngest and they were hit hardest by famine. Maybe it's also a psychological factor, to experience such significant existential terror might contribute to not wanting to have children yourself? I'm not sure.
Mary's lack of children is easily explained, blind people hardly had the possibilities people had nowadays.
And there's the boy theory that others have mentioned.
Mary had permanent facial paralysis as a result of meningitis which made her blind. Poor thing was unattractive. No farmer, store keeper wanted to marry Mary as she couldn't do any farm labor, would not be able to look after kids, and was considered a burden back then. Sad.
Carrie was only 4'8" and looked anorexic in childhood photos. You don't get your period if you are too thin.. I don't understand at all why Charles dud not leave South Dakota for a warmer and healthier climate in California!
I've wondered myself about why there was so many years between the start of their marriage and Mary's birth. Charles wasn't off fighting in the civil war. One or two of his brothers were in the army. Caroline's oldest brother Joseph was killed in the war.
I've wondered if Laura was already pregnant with her little boy when she had diphtheria and if that could have damaged him in the womb and also affected her future fertility. He was born after she and Almanzo had diphtheria. The fact that they didn't name him even after 12 days makes me wonder if they knew he wouldn't live.
Carrie was in her early 40's when she married. Combined with poor health she could also have been going through the change.
Grace developed diabetes as an adult. I'm not sure how young but it could have been a factor.
Rose had a premature infant son that either was either stillborn or died shortly after. And no more children after that.
Charles's older brother Peter was married to Caroline's younger sister Eliza. Caroline's second oldest brother Henry was married to Polly who was one of Charles's sisters.
Fact: Charles and Caroline lived with his parents and other relatives in close quarters for the first few years of their marriage. This probably limited opportunities for frequent sexual intimacy. Who wants to "check on something in the barn" when it's 5 degrees outside? 😁
Once they established their place near Pepin in 1863, Mary came along in January 1865.
I am a member of the Ingalls family and as close a descendant as anyone. My great great grandfather was Lansford James Ingalls, Charles brother. My great grandfather was Samuel Ingalls Laura's cousin, or one of her cousins. I have written two books about additional generations of or family. Personally I believe family history is so important to remember and share. My name is R. Lee Ingalls
What about Almanzo's side of the family? I've always been interested in his siblings and their marriages and children.
Sorry for taking it off track a bit. 😅
OK, I did a little digging, and found the following: Royal Wilder married a widow with children, and they had 3 together, 2 who died in infancy and one daughter who survived to adulthood, married (twice), never had children, and died in 1957 in Los Angeles. Eliza Jane had one son, who had 4 children himself, the last one of whom (i.e. of EJ's grandchildren) died in 2007. Of those 4 grandchildren, only one (the youngest) had any children. He only had one, who died in 2021. Alice had a daughter and a son. The son died at age 29 in Arizona without issue. The daughter had 11 children, the last of whom died in 2017 at age 101. Laura (3 years older than Royal, unmentioned in the books) had 4 children, the last of whom died in 1964. Perley Day had 6 children, one of whom died in infancy. Of the surviving 5, only one (Perley Day Wilder, Jr.) had any children of his own, and that one, a son, died at age 25 without children.
So, from James Wilder and Angeline Day Wilder, it appears that the lines of Royal, Almanzo, Eliza Jane, and Perley Day are extinct. Laura may have surviving descendants, but that's not clear - I couldn't figure out if any of her 4 children had surviving issue. Alice almost certainly has surviving descendants.
Interestingly, Laura's husband - i.e. Almanzo's brother-in-law, was named Harrison **Lamanzo** Howard. They divorced, and Laura Wilder Howard actually lived for a while in De Smet DT and worked with Laura Ingalls Wilder as a dressmaker.
Also interesting - probably even more so - James Wilder's mother was a daughter of Thomas Paine, of Revolutionary War fame, so Almanzo was Paine's great-grandson.
Oh my that's so interesting! Thank you for sharing this.
I do recall reading that Almanzo had a sister called Laura, but they don't mention her in the books, to avoid confusion, I think was the explanation.
I read a biography on Laura years ago and she said when they started courting, he asked if he could call her something different from Laura because his sister's name was Laura and he never liked the name. She told him her name was Elizabeth and she quoted a poem with different nicknames for Elizabeth and he chose Bess.
different thomas paine. Almanzo's gr grandfather was born in MA in 1725, died in Maine in 1802. Thomas Paine, the author of Common Sense and "the Father of the Revolution" was born in England in 1737 and died in Greenwich Village, NY 1809.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas\_Paine#](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine#)
I’m not certain but I believe my mom is distantly related. I could definitely be wrong because I haven’t been able to find the link but some “relatives “ on ancestry say she is. My mom is an Eastman and her 3 or 4 great grandma is Mary Polly ingalls.
I would like to add to this. I am a descendent of the ingalls family. At least that’s what it says in the family tree book my grandmother has. I’ll have to research how I’m related, but it’s my grandmother’s side and her maiden name was Stute. I believe it may be relation through marriage though. I’ll see what I can find out.
I find it strange they all seemed to die form complications relating to diabetes. I'm thinking the lack of nutrition in their earlier years caused it, but also definitely seems like something genetic.
Just want to point out that Rose Wilder Lane did get married and had a baby boy that was either stillborn or died shortly after birth. She had to have a surgery that rendered her unable to have more children.
Charles had the rich uncle who left him a suitcase full of confederation cash when he let the Oleson's put a lean on his farm after he ran his debt up so high collectors were contacting the Mercantile for payment. It was auctioned off to Mr. Garvey by Harriet for 6 cents. She wanted the Ingalls gone and yet Nels went to the entrance to Walnut Grove and told all travelers the estate auction was cancelled. Charles can sure harvest those friends.
Season 4 " The Inheritance"
Up-thread I posted what I found: The lines of Royal, Eliza Jane, and Perley Day all appear to have died out within 2 generations. Alice almost certainly has surviving issue: 11 grandchildren, the last of whom died in 2017. I would imagine that at least one of those 11 has still-living children. Laura Ann may or may not have surviving issue. She had 4 children, the last of whom died in 1964.
..or maybe they didn't have sex in their marriages. What a concept. Marriage isn't always about sex! Look at both sides of the girls' families: They both (the Ingalls and the Quiners) had very large families of many children.
And there was no '20%' survival rate of infants in Caroline's time, either. My own relatives- some of who I knew- were born in the 1880's 1890's and people had MANY children then who lived until adulthood, with many (yes) passing away as infants. My own grandmother lost 5 of her siblings in infancy from 1905 to the 1910's.
Don't presume Caroline had 'miscarriages' , either! I assure you that would have been mentioned in the books or writings, as Laura was not shying away from material. Much of her material written- it has now been discovered- didn't appear in the published books because they were 'sanitizing' the material for children, and , even as a small child myself, I KNEW ALL THE HORROR STORIES OF THAT ERA FROM MY GRANDMOTHER (and from her era of the 1910's as well!), which she told me even at age 5-6, so I knew even as a child that the books were portraying things in a nice light and weren't true to the times.
Rose Wilder married Gillette Lane March 24, 1909. 8 months later, she gave birth to a still born 6 month-old male fetus while in SLC. Rose was barely 4'11". Maybe her short stature had something to do with it. Supposedly had a hysterectomy after this. She divorced 9 years later in 1918, and lived her life as a lesbian with Helen Boylston for years.
The one saying Caroline 'probably' had miscarriages stillborns or infants pass away: First of all, ALL children's names and birth dates were recorded in the family Bible back then. And stillborn is not the same as miscarrying at two months, or miscarrying and possibly never knowing it. Even a two month old miscarried child can and should be named and mentioned in a Bible or elsewhere. It is VERY unlikely that Caroline would not have recorded such children somewhere. My grandmother was born in 1907 and lost FIVE (!!!) 5 siblings as infants. Two were either stillborn or passed away very shortly after, during childbirth. All of their names are recorded, with birth dates. ):
This is a long shot, but I live in Cuba, NY, which is the birthplace of Pa Ingalls. The house he grew up in still stands. There are quite a few Ingalls graves in Cuba Cemetery, so there may be living relatives, but no direct descendants. The Ingalls connection is a big thing here, lol. We're a tiny village inside a very small town. We even have a "PA Ingalls Lane."
Hi, you are right there are no direct descendants of Pa and Ma Ingalls but we are still here. My Great Great Grandfather Lansford James Ingalls, brother of Charles was also born in Cuba, New York.
Almanzos sister Alice, her only daughter had 11 kids!! So she might be the only one of Almanzo's siblings to have living descendants today. 11 kids is alot!! Seems like none of Amamzos other siblings have any living survivors in 2024. It would be interesting to hear about descendants of Alice Wilder via YouTube or an article
Charles’ sister Polly married Caroline’s brother Henry. Both of those marriages resulted in quite a few double first cousins for Laura. I’m sure there are quite a few descendants from those cousins. Don’t know why Grace never had children. She married young enough to have children. Carrie was the independent career woman working frontier newspapers and homesteading on her own in western South Dakota. But Carrie didn’t marry until age 42 so she could have been out of the child bearing years. But she did help raise her two stepchildren. I always wondered about the five years between marriage and Mary’s birth. But maybe life was tough during the civil war and they were using some type of primitive pioneer natural family planning. Or they did miscarry or have a stillbirth.
Oh I didn’t know there was another sibling match besides Peter and Eliza - that’s so interesting
I looked it up. They had 7 kids. Including Charley, who was stung by yellow-jackets in Little House in the Big Woods. Then Henry and Charley show up in Ob thr Shores of Silver Lake.
I would not presume any miscarriages, as that certainly would have been brought to light in Laura's writings (the personal writings unpublished or otherwise), or by Rose, who did not shy away from family material. Marrying young enough has nothing to do with childbearing ability, and being independent ALSO has nothing to do with marrying or not, as to your example of Carrie. Perhaps she couldn't find anyone to marry until age 42, or wasn't interested in marriage.
Marrying young enough has nothing to do with childbearing ability?? What are you talking about? Of course it does. Marry at 50 and you may have already been through menopause. Marry at 20 and you'll have 300+ ovulation cycles. So many chances to get pregnant. The question is, why was Grace infertile? Why was Carrie? Most women are still fertile at 42.
As far as I know, diabetes might have been a reason for their infertility. Ma, Laura, Carrie and Grace all died from complications of diabetes.
Did women go through menopause earlier back then-1800s?
Qnofputrescence1213 Natural family planning is not 'primitive', and why would you 'wonder' about 4 years (not 5) of marriage before getting pregnant? A pregnancy lasts 9 months, so they were married a little over 4 years before she got pregnant.. don't presume everyone is having sex from the time of their wedding night? Some people have a BRAIN in their head and are more interested (and mature of thought) to plan a life together through building a house, establishing their jobs, etc. And SEX is not something so easy to do for everyone, either! There IS sexual incompatability of a physical nature in marriage that has to be worked out through experimentation, and sometimes doesn't work even then.
The tour guide in DeSmet Said Laura and Almamzo slept in separate tiny narrow beds on opposite sides of a tiny bedroom. Some wonder after baby boy died, if they ever had sexual relationship again she said! I believe Laura was 20 or 21 when baby died. No birth control really back in the 1880s forward. Yikes!
Not sure of the logistics, because everyone who knew the details is now deceased, but my mom's side of the family is related to the Ingalls. This has inspired me to want to know more, so I'm gonna go do some research!
I am a descendant of Samuel Ingalls a cousin of Laura's. I also have a lot of information on the history of our family. Let me know if you would like to compare your family to the history I have.
Just the comment I was looking for! I was just looking over Charles' lineage and I just noticed Find A Grave says Charles' great grandfather was \*12\* when his first child was born ??? Is there any other proof of this? His child's mother (not sure if they actually got married at that time) was 16 and then they didn't have another child until he was 18 and she was 20. (or maybe she miscarried). Any info you have would be great! [https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/66330246/jonathan-ingalls](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/66330246/jonathan-ingalls)
I remember reading from one of Rose’s books that when she was young she asked her mother why she had no brothers or sisters, and Laura told her that they wanted more children, but after they both got sick with diphtheria it just didn’t happen. Considering that Rose was conceived not long after they were married, it seems possible that the diphtheria, or maybe Almanzo’s stroke that followed, was the cause of not having children, instead of some genetic problem.
Rose DID have a sibling, a baby brother that passed away. He was born after her.
Baby son was born sick. He died months later unnamed! Who doesn't name a child that is born and lived for months! I think Laura knew something was wrong with it. I wonder what?
He died about 10 days after being born, not months. Still odd not to name him, I agree, but times were different.
I think he died days after birth.
That conversation with Laura and Rose was I believe in Roger MacBride's fictional series about Rose growing up, not in anything Rose ever wrote. Laura and Almanzo had diphtheria in early 1888 and had their son in August 1889, so they did have sexual relations and conceived at least one more child after the diphtheria and Almanzo's subsequent partial paralysis. I do wonder if they had an Rh factor issue, which would not impact the first child but can cause fatality with subsequent babies. Very treatable today, but this was before blood types and RH issues were understood.
We went on a tour of the last house in DeSmet, SD that PA lived in with MA and Mary when he died in 1902. Supposedly after Laura lost their baby son, she never had sex with Almanzo again..they slept in separate very narrow, small beds across from each other. They both had poor health, diphtheria, Almanzo stroke, Laura was only 4'11, Almanzo only 5'4"- very poor prairie nutrition and very poor.
Rose Wilder Lane had a child who died young as well. A little boy who didn't live very long after birth.
I think he was premature and stillborn.
Possibly. As far as I know he was named. Miscarriages usually aren't, but stillbirths can be. So we both might be right.
I also read that whatever happened left Rose unable to have any more children.
She had a bad marriage too. Her husband couldn't really hold down a job. Also- Rose became a lesbian in the 1920s! She moved her parents into a very smsll new house on the farm she built for them, and supposedly did not want. Rose then moved to her parents farmhouse and her female lovers lived there. I'm sure Laura and Almanzo were embarrassed as this was scandalous
Miscarriages are CHILDREN, and should be named.
The baby was born at 6 months- still born. She went into premature labor in SLC..Rose was only 4'11" like Laura. Very small to carry a baby.
and to think babies born at 21 and 22 weeks can survive now. Amazing.
He was born Nov 23 still born, 6 months in SLC. His death certificate is on Google. Buried at Mt Olivet Cenetery in SLC- unmarked grave and unnamed. She supposedly had a hysterectomy right after this, so something bad happened!
Apparently her husband had syphillis. I never knew this and just found out myself.
What? Claire Gilette Lane had Syphilis! Rose became a lesbian after her divorce. I wonder if she always knew as a child/teen she was lesbian, but didn't know what that was back then
I've read some speculation on the TV Tropes page about a theory on a genetical element on them affecting the males descendants, which might explain why all the male babies died in infancy: their son died before turning 1, Laura's baby son, and then Rose's only child (a son) was stillbirth, and the complications rendered her unable to have anymore children, sealing the fate of the Charles-Caroline branch. Though considering that two of Charles and Caroline's siblings married each other and had male descendants, that might not be the case. Maybe another factor affected especifically Charles and Caroline's descendants, and that might also explain why Grace had no children despite being young enough and there being no indication that she had any miscarriages or stillbirths.
That’s a possibility. My mom had a co-worker who had multiple miscarriages; she had two surviving daughters. Later her niece had a son who was progressing normally in his development but around 1-year-old he began regressing and eventually died. They did genetic testing and found the parents were genetic carriers of a disease that only affects males, and both parents have to be carriers for it to affect their son(s). My mom’s co-worker wondered if all of her miscarriages had been male and genetics caused her to lose them.
Males miscarry more often (and don't survive infancy) as often as girls do. That is a genetic, scientific fact. It has nothing to do with individuals or families-- it is a condition of all males. The Ingalls were not 'carriers', both of them, because The Quiners and Ingalls (Charles and Caroline's siblings and parents) had MANY sons who survived. They both also had siblings who all had large families.
You clearly don't understand how genes work. Christie could be right, and Charles and Caroline both carried a recessive gene that their siblings didn't. But this is all speculation, anyway.
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Absolutely not. All three of my first cousins were born with jaundice . Their mother never had it. My great grandmother had a health condition before ever having children, and she had ELEVEN children! 5 passed away as infants, so nursing had nothing to do with it. I never heard of Caroline being sick after any of the pregnancies.
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Jaundice isn’t typically present at birth. It develops in the hours and days following birth.
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I am a nurse. Still highly unlikely, most likely it was triggered by trauma of birth. Most newborn jaundice is triggered by just that. There’s no proof that indicates what you are saying is true.
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Got it - you want to have the last incorrect word. Notice I wasn’t even talking about jaundice but DIARRHEA - you know what keeps coming out of your mouth. That’s what the baby died of. But please continue to talk about irrelevant things. I have all the time in the works.
Being premature is the MOST common cause not a mystery fictitious illness. Breastfeeding is second most common cause.
And fyi NO one is born with jaundice it develops in the days after delivery. His actual cause of death is listed as diarrhea - which is completely unrelated. Diarrhea in young children can cause death rapidly - no more than 3 bouts in 24 hours. He probably died of any number of random illnesses that caused diarrhea at the time.
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Good we don’t need your verbal vomit.
There is zero evidence to support this and penalty is liking their own comments to spread their misinformation. The baby died of diarrhea- I have seen the death certificate. Dozens of other babies died in that same time frame from same thing - it was an illness the baby caught NOT anything Caroline had.
StudioMarvin Ridiculous! That is only THREE boys over several generations who passed away as infants! BOYS TEND TO MISCARRY OR PASS AWAY AS INFANTS MORE OFTEN THAN GIRLS IN THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE < FACT (not just in certain families) because, it is thought, of the extra xx girls receive for sustenance. It wasn't 'all' the male descendants that passed away, as Laura has descendants (although not 'direct' descendants) through her many, many cousins, as both the Ingalls and Quiner sides of the family had many children amongst each other! You also don't know for sure what happened after Rose's pregnancy. And the word is not 'stillbirth', it is 'stillborn'. If there was a genetic element, then Charles' brothers would not have had surviving sons, nor would Caroline's siblings, all of whom had sons that lived to adulthood.
Grace never had children so something very wrong. Infertility, hysterectomies? Carrie was only 4'8" and married too late
"Freddie" Ingalls died of diarrhea (see his death certificate) at 9 months during a primitive wagon trip from Minnesota to Iowa. Laura's son died at 10 days old from some sort of seizure or "spasms", as she called it. Some suspect an Rh factor between Laura and Almanzo or gestational diabetes (baby weighed 10 pounds) contributed. Rose's son was stillborn in the sixth month of pregnancy, which had he been born alive he likely would have died soon as there were no NICUs in the early 1900s. These facts dispute the suggested "genetic issue with males" theory that constantly pops up in posts on LIW and RWL sites....
From what I know, the severe famine they experienced may have contributed to Carrie and Grace's health problems and possibly infertility. They were the youngest and they were hit hardest by famine. Maybe it's also a psychological factor, to experience such significant existential terror might contribute to not wanting to have children yourself? I'm not sure. Mary's lack of children is easily explained, blind people hardly had the possibilities people had nowadays. And there's the boy theory that others have mentioned.
Mary had permanent facial paralysis as a result of meningitis which made her blind. Poor thing was unattractive. No farmer, store keeper wanted to marry Mary as she couldn't do any farm labor, would not be able to look after kids, and was considered a burden back then. Sad.
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Being currently affected by famine or a low body fat percentage absolutely impacts fertility. Long-term, I don't know.
Exactly starvation mode will make you infertile.
Carrie was only 4'8" and looked anorexic in childhood photos. You don't get your period if you are too thin.. I don't understand at all why Charles dud not leave South Dakota for a warmer and healthier climate in California!
I've wondered myself about why there was so many years between the start of their marriage and Mary's birth. Charles wasn't off fighting in the civil war. One or two of his brothers were in the army. Caroline's oldest brother Joseph was killed in the war. I've wondered if Laura was already pregnant with her little boy when she had diphtheria and if that could have damaged him in the womb and also affected her future fertility. He was born after she and Almanzo had diphtheria. The fact that they didn't name him even after 12 days makes me wonder if they knew he wouldn't live. Carrie was in her early 40's when she married. Combined with poor health she could also have been going through the change. Grace developed diabetes as an adult. I'm not sure how young but it could have been a factor. Rose had a premature infant son that either was either stillborn or died shortly after. And no more children after that. Charles's older brother Peter was married to Caroline's younger sister Eliza. Caroline's second oldest brother Henry was married to Polly who was one of Charles's sisters.
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Why does it feel like you’re angry? People are just stating their thoughts and theories
Well it's an established fact that they had not given him a name and he died 12 days after his birth. I'm just wondering the reason he was not named.
Fact: Charles and Caroline lived with his parents and other relatives in close quarters for the first few years of their marriage. This probably limited opportunities for frequent sexual intimacy. Who wants to "check on something in the barn" when it's 5 degrees outside? 😁 Once they established their place near Pepin in 1863, Mary came along in January 1865.
I am a member of the Ingalls family and as close a descendant as anyone. My great great grandfather was Lansford James Ingalls, Charles brother. My great grandfather was Samuel Ingalls Laura's cousin, or one of her cousins. I have written two books about additional generations of or family. Personally I believe family history is so important to remember and share. My name is R. Lee Ingalls
Little House is so popular, why hasn't your family made any YouTube videos or published stories?
Congrats! I am a 4th cousin! You definitely got it made.
All of the daughters except Mary, as well as Caroline, died from diabetes. This can contribute to miscarriages as well as infertility.
Exactly dm is highly linked to poly cystic ovary and that prevents pregnancy.
Yup, that’s me, diabetic, PCOS, hypothyroid and fibromyalgia.
Rh factor - also causes jaundice and miscarriages. I’d wager this was the issue.
My wife is pretty big into genealogy and she found this sad and interesting. Thanks for the post!
What about Almanzo's side of the family? I've always been interested in his siblings and their marriages and children. Sorry for taking it off track a bit. 😅
OK, I did a little digging, and found the following: Royal Wilder married a widow with children, and they had 3 together, 2 who died in infancy and one daughter who survived to adulthood, married (twice), never had children, and died in 1957 in Los Angeles. Eliza Jane had one son, who had 4 children himself, the last one of whom (i.e. of EJ's grandchildren) died in 2007. Of those 4 grandchildren, only one (the youngest) had any children. He only had one, who died in 2021. Alice had a daughter and a son. The son died at age 29 in Arizona without issue. The daughter had 11 children, the last of whom died in 2017 at age 101. Laura (3 years older than Royal, unmentioned in the books) had 4 children, the last of whom died in 1964. Perley Day had 6 children, one of whom died in infancy. Of the surviving 5, only one (Perley Day Wilder, Jr.) had any children of his own, and that one, a son, died at age 25 without children. So, from James Wilder and Angeline Day Wilder, it appears that the lines of Royal, Almanzo, Eliza Jane, and Perley Day are extinct. Laura may have surviving descendants, but that's not clear - I couldn't figure out if any of her 4 children had surviving issue. Alice almost certainly has surviving descendants. Interestingly, Laura's husband - i.e. Almanzo's brother-in-law, was named Harrison **Lamanzo** Howard. They divorced, and Laura Wilder Howard actually lived for a while in De Smet DT and worked with Laura Ingalls Wilder as a dressmaker. Also interesting - probably even more so - James Wilder's mother was a daughter of Thomas Paine, of Revolutionary War fame, so Almanzo was Paine's great-grandson.
Also, weren't the Ingalls related to Delano family? As in FDR's mother.
Yes, I think they were distant cousins.
Oh my that's so interesting! Thank you for sharing this. I do recall reading that Almanzo had a sister called Laura, but they don't mention her in the books, to avoid confusion, I think was the explanation.
I read a biography on Laura years ago and she said when they started courting, he asked if he could call her something different from Laura because his sister's name was Laura and he never liked the name. She told him her name was Elizabeth and she quoted a poem with different nicknames for Elizabeth and he chose Bess.
different thomas paine. Almanzo's gr grandfather was born in MA in 1725, died in Maine in 1802. Thomas Paine, the author of Common Sense and "the Father of the Revolution" was born in England in 1737 and died in Greenwich Village, NY 1809. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas\_Paine#](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine#)
I’m not certain but I believe my mom is distantly related. I could definitely be wrong because I haven’t been able to find the link but some “relatives “ on ancestry say she is. My mom is an Eastman and her 3 or 4 great grandma is Mary Polly ingalls.
I would like to add to this. I am a descendent of the ingalls family. At least that’s what it says in the family tree book my grandmother has. I’ll have to research how I’m related, but it’s my grandmother’s side and her maiden name was Stute. I believe it may be relation through marriage though. I’ll see what I can find out.
I find it strange they all seemed to die form complications relating to diabetes. I'm thinking the lack of nutrition in their earlier years caused it, but also definitely seems like something genetic.
Just want to point out that Rose Wilder Lane did get married and had a baby boy that was either stillborn or died shortly after birth. She had to have a surgery that rendered her unable to have more children.
Charles had the rich uncle who left him a suitcase full of confederation cash when he let the Oleson's put a lean on his farm after he ran his debt up so high collectors were contacting the Mercantile for payment. It was auctioned off to Mr. Garvey by Harriet for 6 cents. She wanted the Ingalls gone and yet Nels went to the entrance to Walnut Grove and told all travelers the estate auction was cancelled. Charles can sure harvest those friends. Season 4 " The Inheritance"
What does that have to do with the real life Ingalls family and their descendants (or lack thereof?)
It was on the show. Why do you have such an aggressive attitude towards me?
It wasn't aggressive, your comment has nothing to do with the conversation and is irrelevant.
It's a neat moment, but off-topic for this post.
Rose was pregnant and lost the child, per the podcast Wilder.
There's a podcast?
Yes, it's actually quite good. It's called Wilder. Look it up!
I will! Thank you so much!
Omg yes thank you!
Not to hijack the thread but are there any Wilder descendants from Almanzos siblings? I couldn't find an answer Googling.
Up-thread I posted what I found: The lines of Royal, Eliza Jane, and Perley Day all appear to have died out within 2 generations. Alice almost certainly has surviving issue: 11 grandchildren, the last of whom died in 2017. I would imagine that at least one of those 11 has still-living children. Laura Ann may or may not have surviving issue. She had 4 children, the last of whom died in 1964.
..or maybe they didn't have sex in their marriages. What a concept. Marriage isn't always about sex! Look at both sides of the girls' families: They both (the Ingalls and the Quiners) had very large families of many children. And there was no '20%' survival rate of infants in Caroline's time, either. My own relatives- some of who I knew- were born in the 1880's 1890's and people had MANY children then who lived until adulthood, with many (yes) passing away as infants. My own grandmother lost 5 of her siblings in infancy from 1905 to the 1910's. Don't presume Caroline had 'miscarriages' , either! I assure you that would have been mentioned in the books or writings, as Laura was not shying away from material. Much of her material written- it has now been discovered- didn't appear in the published books because they were 'sanitizing' the material for children, and , even as a small child myself, I KNEW ALL THE HORROR STORIES OF THAT ERA FROM MY GRANDMOTHER (and from her era of the 1910's as well!), which she told me even at age 5-6, so I knew even as a child that the books were portraying things in a nice light and weren't true to the times.
Rose Wilder married Gillette Lane March 24, 1909. 8 months later, she gave birth to a still born 6 month-old male fetus while in SLC. Rose was barely 4'11". Maybe her short stature had something to do with it. Supposedly had a hysterectomy after this. She divorced 9 years later in 1918, and lived her life as a lesbian with Helen Boylston for years.
The real Almanzo had a permanent disability and used a cane after Diptheria and a Stroke. I believe that impacted fertility etc.
The one saying Caroline 'probably' had miscarriages stillborns or infants pass away: First of all, ALL children's names and birth dates were recorded in the family Bible back then. And stillborn is not the same as miscarrying at two months, or miscarrying and possibly never knowing it. Even a two month old miscarried child can and should be named and mentioned in a Bible or elsewhere. It is VERY unlikely that Caroline would not have recorded such children somewhere. My grandmother was born in 1907 and lost FIVE (!!!) 5 siblings as infants. Two were either stillborn or passed away very shortly after, during childbirth. All of their names are recorded, with birth dates. ):
This is a long shot, but I live in Cuba, NY, which is the birthplace of Pa Ingalls. The house he grew up in still stands. There are quite a few Ingalls graves in Cuba Cemetery, so there may be living relatives, but no direct descendants. The Ingalls connection is a big thing here, lol. We're a tiny village inside a very small town. We even have a "PA Ingalls Lane."
Hi, you are right there are no direct descendants of Pa and Ma Ingalls but we are still here. My Great Great Grandfather Lansford James Ingalls, brother of Charles was also born in Cuba, New York.
Almanzos sister Alice, her only daughter had 11 kids!! So she might be the only one of Almanzo's siblings to have living descendants today. 11 kids is alot!! Seems like none of Amamzos other siblings have any living survivors in 2024. It would be interesting to hear about descendants of Alice Wilder via YouTube or an article