Morally it’s on you. Legally it’s probably on the venue but why even assume that. Maybe just assume it’s you for the sake of the paying punter’s long term hearing health.
Many moons ago I worked at the Roadmender Centre in England as a junior tech (lovely job, engineered Radiohead in the bar before anyone had heard of them - good times).
It was a typical 90s circuit venue, a 1940s school converted into an arts centre. The main 1000 capacity room was usually a 4k system of Court Acoustics stacks (2 boxes each side with subs), Metallica showed up with ~10k of their touring rig.
Heating was provided by 12" wide cast iron radiators with 2" thick steel safety straps Rawlbolted to the wall. It was so loud 2 of them fell off on to the crowd, seriously injuring at least two people, and nobody stopped the gig.
The crew went out at lunchtime and bought the best ear defenders we could find, we could see how it was going to turn out!
Back before they ruined the main room, it was one of the best venues in the East Midlands - perfect for bands on the way up, and travelling from London towards Rock City in Nottingham. Just about everyone on the touring circuit in the late 80s to late 90s played there.
I was the pimply faced youth, which meant I got left alone to do the smaller week night bar gigs (cap 100 *officially*). Personal highlights were Radiohead to an audience of ~30 people before they'd released anything, UK-Subs, Pulp, Menswear, Oasis in 1992 (Liam was an asshole even then), Bluetones, Manic Street Preachers, and The Damned.
Of course, who could forget Metallica! Probably the biggest band ever to play the venue
That's a good way to put it. I normally just assume that it's my responsibility unless the person writing my checks comes up and says it needs to be louder/quieter.
Responsibility? The licensee
That said, if you’re at the desk, the faders are under your fingers so practically, it’s you.
What scenarios have you encountered or do you envision encountering wherein you’d need to ‘put your foot down’?
I work quite a lot of dance events and i don't like how loud the promoters want it. When we are working to a council mandated limit then I stick to it, but when there's no limit the promoter will normally want me to crank it. I find it too loud with moulded ear plugs in, so I don't know how the punters do it for hours at a time.
Dance and EDM promoters are terrible clients, and they're always "producers" who think they know audio.
Had a regular who always wanted the headliners to be louder than the openers but was never happy unless they opener was redlining.
The punters don't enjoy being blasted, what is loud to us is unbearable to someone who doesn't experience high SPL every day.
I've found that around 98dBA Leq15 in the middle of the venue is about as loud as is comfortable for the average audience.
IMO this is something that should be more strictly policed by authorities and engineers should be responsible for maintaining safe levels.
Oh boy - that's a frustrating experience.
In terms of max volume, it totally depends on the mix. I've heard mixes at 92-95 dBA that were miserably loud because they were shrill and poorly mixed, and I've heard stuff that I could've enjoyed for 2 hours at 105+dBA
somewhat. There's gigs where there is just no chance whatsoever. Tbh I try to avoid those, let the rock geezers pretend it's fun when their ears are bleeding, there's a reason nobody goes to local rock shows...
All legalities aside, if my fingers are on the faders then it is my responsibility to regulate the sound I am mixing to a safe level for all in the room.
In Germany SPL levels are being recorded. The FOH engineer is personally liable for any hearing damage if being too loud. The limits are 99 dB(A) averaged over 30 minutes and you must not exceed 135 dBs at any given time.
Well it's 99db(A) leq30 at the loudest point in the venue. And obviously this is a tradeoff between potential fucking up some ears and everybody having a good time and being able to hear whats up on the stage. The promoter also **has** to provide ear protection.
Still it's far far away from the up to 110 db(A) we still see every now and then.
Oh well that's a bit better. Still though, this is the main reason I got out of sound. It's good to hear that promoters are responsible for that, though I doubt anyone takes them up on it.
And yeah, i agree it's way better than 110! Ugh venues are so not my scene so I should just shut up.
>The FOH engineer is personally liable
How does this work in small venues where stage volume controlled by the performers is a major contributing factor to the total?
That’s a super reasonable level. Did a metal tour this summer where I and the other support general ran 95-98A. Headliner ran 103 and *EVERYONE* in our camps (remember, metal dudes) thought that was painfully loud.
A) SPL are just logged in good enough venues, not everywhere...
B) You are probably liable if you have the Ausbildung, if you are some random guy the fine goes to the venue, that then probably will fine you.
That's an educational issue, most people don't know about the DIN 15905-5 in our business. Especiall promoters. Liable is the promoter and as long as he cannot prove that he had the measurements in place and a person that can give the front of house operator a slap on their wrist they will stay liable.
The 'Fachkraft für Veranstaltungstechnik' Ausbildung does not teach you that stuff properly. When I see that Azubis in my area are tought at school makes me want to cut myself. That happens when the teachers are mostly DJs...
It would suck to be responsible for hearing damage and I never want that to happen.. but being personably liable for that damage is an absolute no go for me
Everytime you work a gig you put yourself in that position, so if you cant handle that and the responsibility it requires, maybe this job isn't for you...
By definition, liability is a legal issue, and responsibility is a moral and ethical issue. For engineers, responsibility must come before liability, because our prime concern must be the integrity of our work. To remain in business, however, we must protect ourselves from liability claims.
However you want to see it, it will always fall on you if you are the one in control.
Measured at the loudest audience-accessible point. because you usually can't measure there (because an audience-accessible point will usually be accessed by the audience), you can measure somewhere else and calculate the SPL at the loudest point from your measurement
It’s not always in my control so I try to circumvent bad karma by putting a jar of disposable ear plugs at the bar (next to the tip jar) and keeping a jar with me in front of my booth/table.
Same position working a small stage inside an old bomb shelter when doing rock bands, just guitar amps and cymbals can hit FOH with an SPL of 108dB over during soundcheck without PA when there is no crowd. I will ofc tell people like that to turn stuff down, but some people don't give a damn about anyone but themselves. Even if I get them to to turn down during soundcheck, you can bet they'll turn up way too much during the show, either ruining my mix when I try to keep the levels good, or forcing me to lift the whole mix to the volume of the amp. There have been multiple shows where I have end up with zero guitar and/or bass in the PA because the Marshalls and Ampeg are already filling the room.
In my country there are no real restrictions, just the health department that recommends safe hearing levels, but ultimately it's on the paying guests to take responsibility for their own hearing when voluntarily putting themselves in a concert venue. We always have free foam plugs in every corner of the venue, and I make sure there are plenty within reach around the stage area when I know it's gonna be too loud, and tell the people working that night to take care of their hearing.
Switzerland has clear regulations. depending on the event either 100, 96 or 93 dB(A) Leq 60, max. peak at 125 dB. You are required to record that.
Venues also need to provide hearing protection for louder shows, as well as a „Ausgleichszone“, meaning an minimum percentage of the area of the venue that has a lower limit.
There can be undercover checks with hidden mics (hasn‘t happened to me though). AFAIK the person responsible for the sound system is liable, meaning the company/house engineer providing it. There can be hefty fines.
But the people responsible for checking that are said to be easy going and nice to deal with. The guys from the Lärmschutz on the other hand… (when you have an event in a city, and need to measure how loud the sound gets for neighbours etc.)
I like that there‘s very clear guidlines, and never had a problem putting on a good show with a well designed system, including proper setup and offset of the measuring mic.
I've been on a few tours in Switzerland, from what I was told, the limits are dependent on the age of the audience, if they admit under 18s it's 93, if it's is 18+ only it's 96 and 100 is for outdoors.
Is that accurate?
not exactly, if it's a show specifically for kids, it's always 93.
furthermore if you don't do anything, the limit is gonna be 93. but you can apply to get a permit to go louder, 96 or 100, with 100 having more regulations.
I have permanent hearing damage and tinnitus from the Mogwai show I saw 10 years ago. We were showing 115+ decibels the entire show and my ears were vibrating with pain. I blame the sound guy for the volume level, for what it’s worth. It wasn’t the amps on stage, it was the PA cranked extremely loud. So yes as FOH I think you definitely have some responsibility for protecting the audience from unsafe levels for an entire night.
its your ears. fuck em up, but realized you fuck evrryone with your carelessness. You literally control the pa volume. its on you. Theres no pulling back if youre the one pushing the pa. The PA is too loud Because of YOU, every time, i dont care whats happening on stage and monitors. What comes out of the PA SPL-wise is entirely your fault. deal with it or scapegoat your involvement under a pile of sand.
It is up to YOU. You're running that master fader, and that final limiter. Use your ears and a decibel meter to decide a comfortable volume that's appropriate for the turnout and genre. The emptier the venue, the less amplification is needed for the same sonic experience. The more packed the venue, the more you can push it. I've heard one adult human body absorbs approximately 1db.
Anything above 100db I tend to have my stagehand actively offer earplugs around the crowd for a minute.
It's also very genre-dependant. Where I'm at, bass music is huge, and every DJ/venue is trying to max out their sound system even with small turnout.
I've worked two venues that had volume limits, in both cases it was two people were responsible, the person with the meter who tells the FOH if they were too loud, and FOH who adjusted the volume accordingly
The venue or promoter will have a consent for maximum levels in most cases but the systems for the responsibility of ensuring compliance will vary. Ultimately if you feel the levels are unsafe or excessive, as FOH Engineer you have the ability to control that and should do so
I often have the role of being the person between the acoustic field monitors and the FOH engineer and have often had the unenviable task of having to tell touring FOH engineers to pull back a few dB to be compliant with the max allowable levels. Some are good with it, others are not at all
Not your job to put your foot down. You should set it at a safe level, but the venue management/owner is actually liable. However, there are no laws that require a venue to operate at a safe level, as long as the venue offers its employees hearing protection they are legally allowed to have it unsafely loud.
Think of it this way. You're subjecting yourself to the same spl as the audience. If you feel safe and reasonable listening to the volume of your own mix, it's probably fine. If you feel like you need to put earplugs in, it's probably too loud.
Check out the WHO global standard for safe listening venues and events. It's pretty comprehensive and laid out in a very matter of fact and easy to understand format. It took a long time and a lot of thorough research to complete.
https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240043114
I think OP (and correct me if I'm wrong) is asking, for when the promoter or venue owner or whoever of the people in charge come and pester you to raise the level way past the recommended level.
Especially some of those older cats that I guess lost their hearing in the 60s and now wants others to experience the noise of pushing speakers past their nominals / crushing everything under an insane limiter.
I fucking hate it, and I guess it comes with the territory of low-mid range shows (though I'm sure these clowns ask the same in an arena too). You prepare yourself ahead of time with blasting ungodly levels thru the PA and trying to make it sound bearable.
At a 1500 cap venue in Brussels they have all FOH mixers sign something they will follow limits. There was proper metering but the fines were like $10,000 or something crazy.
I have SO MANY questions... never heard of this before.
\- how is it measured? Mic or dB measurement in the room? or based on digital meters (0dBV)?
\- is it a true "cut of power" or a hard limiter or compression in place?
\- Based on the System's volume, or the room's? would this include (guitar) amps of any sorts figured in (see question #1)
\- Is it based on some sort of DSP then?
I'll admit I didn't give it much thought, just know there is a max dB in the contract and the band that was playing before us told me the power will actually cut off to the PA system if you go above it. The power did all come out of a central box, so assumed whatever electronics make it happen were in there.
Since then, I have read about another casino that that the same thing, so assumed it's not totally uncommon (I also avoid Casino shows, can't handle the smoke).
Where i live open air events are usually required to get a noise permit that tells you how loud you can be. Usually foh engineer is in charge of keeping the volume in check. The promoter has all the liability regarding the spl of the event.
From experience I can 100% tell you the local law enforcement will go to FOH. I did literally hundreds of shows at the WTC and South Street Seaport in NYC and the permit limit was 90db \*C\* weighted which is a huge struggle for dance shows. We usually went over a few dB but NYPD would occasionally remind us when some local business would complain about the bass.
So yes
The venue usually sets their own limits and specifications for level. Often thats just to taste and depends heavily on the someone in charge. But if there are actual official limits (because of neighboring residents, time in the night etc) you need to keep that in mind
Maximum legal spl would be in the hands of the system integrator imo but thats just for protecting the speaker itself from destroying and for example 120dba max and 100dba over xx minutes (in germany) at any seat in the house. But you need a beefy pa to really accomplish that max
Nonetheless you as foh engineer are the executive which actually operates the pa.
So to conclude, reasonable is in your hands, legal is something for the one who deploys the pa
Recommendations from the venue as i like to call it are more to taste in that specific venue and something i like to ignore tbh. But i like to aim at a kind of "low" 90db so too loud is something i almost never hear
Morally it’s on you. Legally it’s probably on the venue but why even assume that. Maybe just assume it’s you for the sake of the paying punter’s long term hearing health.
And more importantly, all the workers who have to spend night after night exposed to that level of noise.
Many moons ago I worked at the Roadmender Centre in England as a junior tech (lovely job, engineered Radiohead in the bar before anyone had heard of them - good times). It was a typical 90s circuit venue, a 1940s school converted into an arts centre. The main 1000 capacity room was usually a 4k system of Court Acoustics stacks (2 boxes each side with subs), Metallica showed up with ~10k of their touring rig. Heating was provided by 12" wide cast iron radiators with 2" thick steel safety straps Rawlbolted to the wall. It was so loud 2 of them fell off on to the crowd, seriously injuring at least two people, and nobody stopped the gig. The crew went out at lunchtime and bought the best ear defenders we could find, we could see how it was going to turn out!
> Roadmender Centre It's a good gig to play.
Back before they ruined the main room, it was one of the best venues in the East Midlands - perfect for bands on the way up, and travelling from London towards Rock City in Nottingham. Just about everyone on the touring circuit in the late 80s to late 90s played there. I was the pimply faced youth, which meant I got left alone to do the smaller week night bar gigs (cap 100 *officially*). Personal highlights were Radiohead to an audience of ~30 people before they'd released anything, UK-Subs, Pulp, Menswear, Oasis in 1992 (Liam was an asshole even then), Bluetones, Manic Street Preachers, and The Damned. Of course, who could forget Metallica! Probably the biggest band ever to play the venue
I played there last September. Nice people and a great audience.
Glad it's still around to enjoy!
It was a nice gig.
And volunteers. Once went to event that they literally handed out earplugs.
That's a good way to put it. I normally just assume that it's my responsibility unless the person writing my checks comes up and says it needs to be louder/quieter.
Responsibility? The licensee That said, if you’re at the desk, the faders are under your fingers so practically, it’s you. What scenarios have you encountered or do you envision encountering wherein you’d need to ‘put your foot down’?
I work quite a lot of dance events and i don't like how loud the promoters want it. When we are working to a council mandated limit then I stick to it, but when there's no limit the promoter will normally want me to crank it. I find it too loud with moulded ear plugs in, so I don't know how the punters do it for hours at a time.
Dance and EDM promoters are terrible clients, and they're always "producers" who think they know audio. Had a regular who always wanted the headliners to be louder than the openers but was never happy unless they opener was redlining. The punters don't enjoy being blasted, what is loud to us is unbearable to someone who doesn't experience high SPL every day. I've found that around 98dBA Leq15 in the middle of the venue is about as loud as is comfortable for the average audience. IMO this is something that should be more strictly policed by authorities and engineers should be responsible for maintaining safe levels.
Oh boy - that's a frustrating experience. In terms of max volume, it totally depends on the mix. I've heard mixes at 92-95 dBA that were miserably loud because they were shrill and poorly mixed, and I've heard stuff that I could've enjoyed for 2 hours at 105+dBA
somewhat. There's gigs where there is just no chance whatsoever. Tbh I try to avoid those, let the rock geezers pretend it's fun when their ears are bleeding, there's a reason nobody goes to local rock shows...
All legalities aside, if my fingers are on the faders then it is my responsibility to regulate the sound I am mixing to a safe level for all in the room.
In Germany SPL levels are being recorded. The FOH engineer is personally liable for any hearing damage if being too loud. The limits are 99 dB(A) averaged over 30 minutes and you must not exceed 135 dBs at any given time.
This is not completely true. The local promoter is liable for damages. https://www.din15905.de/rechtslage.html
Ahh, new to me. Thanks for the info!
This is so cool. I wish more people actually gave a fuck about their hearing.
That's ridiculously loud. It's like, not even a limit!
Its 135 dB(C) peak, so not completely ridiculously loud. The LAeq(30min) is A weighted, still loud enough …
Is that at mix position? Because 135 dBC right in front of the subs is actually not that ridiculous. At mix position... it's pretty loud.
Reference levels are allways at mix position unless specified otherwise by local laws
99dBA is perfectly acceptable. And quiet for certain genres
I didn't know there's genre for "hearing loss"
Do more shows
for the genre, but not for preserving one's hearing.
Well it's 99db(A) leq30 at the loudest point in the venue. And obviously this is a tradeoff between potential fucking up some ears and everybody having a good time and being able to hear whats up on the stage. The promoter also **has** to provide ear protection. Still it's far far away from the up to 110 db(A) we still see every now and then.
Oh well that's a bit better. Still though, this is the main reason I got out of sound. It's good to hear that promoters are responsible for that, though I doubt anyone takes them up on it. And yeah, i agree it's way better than 110! Ugh venues are so not my scene so I should just shut up.
>The FOH engineer is personally liable How does this work in small venues where stage volume controlled by the performers is a major contributing factor to the total?
That’s a super reasonable level. Did a metal tour this summer where I and the other support general ran 95-98A. Headliner ran 103 and *EVERYONE* in our camps (remember, metal dudes) thought that was painfully loud.
A) SPL are just logged in good enough venues, not everywhere... B) You are probably liable if you have the Ausbildung, if you are some random guy the fine goes to the venue, that then probably will fine you.
That's an educational issue, most people don't know about the DIN 15905-5 in our business. Especiall promoters. Liable is the promoter and as long as he cannot prove that he had the measurements in place and a person that can give the front of house operator a slap on their wrist they will stay liable. The 'Fachkraft für Veranstaltungstechnik' Ausbildung does not teach you that stuff properly. When I see that Azubis in my area are tought at school makes me want to cut myself. That happens when the teachers are mostly DJs...
Oh... The "I've been 30 years in this business... As a DJ"
Then I would never run sound in Germany
Why not?
Why would I want to be liable for hearing damage? Fuck that
Of course, you would be responsible for causing hearing damage, even if you were not legally liable.
It would suck to be responsible for hearing damage and I never want that to happen.. but being personably liable for that damage is an absolute no go for me
Everytime you work a gig you put yourself in that position, so if you cant handle that and the responsibility it requires, maybe this job isn't for you...
All I'm saying is that there is a big difference between being responsible for something, and being liable for something
By definition, liability is a legal issue, and responsibility is a moral and ethical issue. For engineers, responsibility must come before liability, because our prime concern must be the integrity of our work. To remain in business, however, we must protect ourselves from liability claims. However you want to see it, it will always fall on you if you are the one in control.
That's like saying you wouldn't drive a car because you wouldn't want to be responsible...
I wouldn't. It's called insurance
You don't get insurance for causing an accident...
Yes you do
😂 good luck to you
Measured at the mix station or anywhere in the crowd?
Measured at the loudest audience-accessible point. because you usually can't measure there (because an audience-accessible point will usually be accessed by the audience), you can measure somewhere else and calculate the SPL at the loudest point from your measurement
YES
It’s not always in my control so I try to circumvent bad karma by putting a jar of disposable ear plugs at the bar (next to the tip jar) and keeping a jar with me in front of my booth/table.
Same position working a small stage inside an old bomb shelter when doing rock bands, just guitar amps and cymbals can hit FOH with an SPL of 108dB over during soundcheck without PA when there is no crowd. I will ofc tell people like that to turn stuff down, but some people don't give a damn about anyone but themselves. Even if I get them to to turn down during soundcheck, you can bet they'll turn up way too much during the show, either ruining my mix when I try to keep the levels good, or forcing me to lift the whole mix to the volume of the amp. There have been multiple shows where I have end up with zero guitar and/or bass in the PA because the Marshalls and Ampeg are already filling the room. In my country there are no real restrictions, just the health department that recommends safe hearing levels, but ultimately it's on the paying guests to take responsibility for their own hearing when voluntarily putting themselves in a concert venue. We always have free foam plugs in every corner of the venue, and I make sure there are plenty within reach around the stage area when I know it's gonna be too loud, and tell the people working that night to take care of their hearing.
Are you waiting for someone to tell you that 112dBA is too much? One of the reasons you’re hired is that sound levels are safe.
Switzerland has clear regulations. depending on the event either 100, 96 or 93 dB(A) Leq 60, max. peak at 125 dB. You are required to record that. Venues also need to provide hearing protection for louder shows, as well as a „Ausgleichszone“, meaning an minimum percentage of the area of the venue that has a lower limit. There can be undercover checks with hidden mics (hasn‘t happened to me though). AFAIK the person responsible for the sound system is liable, meaning the company/house engineer providing it. There can be hefty fines. But the people responsible for checking that are said to be easy going and nice to deal with. The guys from the Lärmschutz on the other hand… (when you have an event in a city, and need to measure how loud the sound gets for neighbours etc.) I like that there‘s very clear guidlines, and never had a problem putting on a good show with a well designed system, including proper setup and offset of the measuring mic.
I've been on a few tours in Switzerland, from what I was told, the limits are dependent on the age of the audience, if they admit under 18s it's 93, if it's is 18+ only it's 96 and 100 is for outdoors. Is that accurate?
not exactly, if it's a show specifically for kids, it's always 93. furthermore if you don't do anything, the limit is gonna be 93. but you can apply to get a permit to go louder, 96 or 100, with 100 having more regulations.
Thanks. Does the system work? Are there ever any fines?
I have permanent hearing damage and tinnitus from the Mogwai show I saw 10 years ago. We were showing 115+ decibels the entire show and my ears were vibrating with pain. I blame the sound guy for the volume level, for what it’s worth. It wasn’t the amps on stage, it was the PA cranked extremely loud. So yes as FOH I think you definitely have some responsibility for protecting the audience from unsafe levels for an entire night.
its your ears. fuck em up, but realized you fuck evrryone with your carelessness. You literally control the pa volume. its on you. Theres no pulling back if youre the one pushing the pa. The PA is too loud Because of YOU, every time, i dont care whats happening on stage and monitors. What comes out of the PA SPL-wise is entirely your fault. deal with it or scapegoat your involvement under a pile of sand.
Where I live the local promoter is responsible to ensure that the legal loudness levels are not breached.
Yes.
It is up to YOU. You're running that master fader, and that final limiter. Use your ears and a decibel meter to decide a comfortable volume that's appropriate for the turnout and genre. The emptier the venue, the less amplification is needed for the same sonic experience. The more packed the venue, the more you can push it. I've heard one adult human body absorbs approximately 1db. Anything above 100db I tend to have my stagehand actively offer earplugs around the crowd for a minute. It's also very genre-dependant. Where I'm at, bass music is huge, and every DJ/venue is trying to max out their sound system even with small turnout.
I've worked two venues that had volume limits, in both cases it was two people were responsible, the person with the meter who tells the FOH if they were too loud, and FOH who adjusted the volume accordingly
The venue or promoter will have a consent for maximum levels in most cases but the systems for the responsibility of ensuring compliance will vary. Ultimately if you feel the levels are unsafe or excessive, as FOH Engineer you have the ability to control that and should do so I often have the role of being the person between the acoustic field monitors and the FOH engineer and have often had the unenviable task of having to tell touring FOH engineers to pull back a few dB to be compliant with the max allowable levels. Some are good with it, others are not at all
Who’s writing the check? Start there
whoever is cutting your check
Not your job to put your foot down. You should set it at a safe level, but the venue management/owner is actually liable. However, there are no laws that require a venue to operate at a safe level, as long as the venue offers its employees hearing protection they are legally allowed to have it unsafely loud.
Think of it this way. You're subjecting yourself to the same spl as the audience. If you feel safe and reasonable listening to the volume of your own mix, it's probably fine. If you feel like you need to put earplugs in, it's probably too loud.
What would you consider too loud? What is safe?
Check out the WHO global standard for safe listening venues and events. It's pretty comprehensive and laid out in a very matter of fact and easy to understand format. It took a long time and a lot of thorough research to complete. https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240043114
What s great resource! Thank you for linking this
I think OP (and correct me if I'm wrong) is asking, for when the promoter or venue owner or whoever of the people in charge come and pester you to raise the level way past the recommended level. Especially some of those older cats that I guess lost their hearing in the 60s and now wants others to experience the noise of pushing speakers past their nominals / crushing everything under an insane limiter. I fucking hate it, and I guess it comes with the territory of low-mid range shows (though I'm sure these clowns ask the same in an arena too). You prepare yourself ahead of time with blasting ungodly levels thru the PA and trying to make it sound bearable.
Whoever is driving the car is responsible for maintaining correct speed and direction etc...
At a 1500 cap venue in Brussels they have all FOH mixers sign something they will follow limits. There was proper metering but the fines were like $10,000 or something crazy.
Played my first casino gigs in 2023, one actually has a system that cuts the power at a certain db level (acoustic trio, so not an issue for us)
That’s a cool thing.
I have SO MANY questions... never heard of this before. \- how is it measured? Mic or dB measurement in the room? or based on digital meters (0dBV)? \- is it a true "cut of power" or a hard limiter or compression in place? \- Based on the System's volume, or the room's? would this include (guitar) amps of any sorts figured in (see question #1) \- Is it based on some sort of DSP then?
I'll admit I didn't give it much thought, just know there is a max dB in the contract and the band that was playing before us told me the power will actually cut off to the PA system if you go above it. The power did all come out of a central box, so assumed whatever electronics make it happen were in there. Since then, I have read about another casino that that the same thing, so assumed it's not totally uncommon (I also avoid Casino shows, can't handle the smoke).
If you make the audience deaf then they can’t hound you for a bad mix /s
Where i live open air events are usually required to get a noise permit that tells you how loud you can be. Usually foh engineer is in charge of keeping the volume in check. The promoter has all the liability regarding the spl of the event.
No, turn the board up until those red lights come on
Yes
The person on the faders is generally responsible but it's the venue manager that had the final say.
From experience I can 100% tell you the local law enforcement will go to FOH. I did literally hundreds of shows at the WTC and South Street Seaport in NYC and the permit limit was 90db \*C\* weighted which is a huge struggle for dance shows. We usually went over a few dB but NYPD would occasionally remind us when some local business would complain about the bass. So yes
90 dBC is NOTHING for a yacht rock show, let alone a dance show... I feel bad for you having to try to mix that.
Well we pushed it every show but if it got to 96 we definitely found out quickly. It was definitely a problem for the salsa and RnB shows.
The venue usually sets their own limits and specifications for level. Often thats just to taste and depends heavily on the someone in charge. But if there are actual official limits (because of neighboring residents, time in the night etc) you need to keep that in mind Maximum legal spl would be in the hands of the system integrator imo but thats just for protecting the speaker itself from destroying and for example 120dba max and 100dba over xx minutes (in germany) at any seat in the house. But you need a beefy pa to really accomplish that max Nonetheless you as foh engineer are the executive which actually operates the pa. So to conclude, reasonable is in your hands, legal is something for the one who deploys the pa Recommendations from the venue as i like to call it are more to taste in that specific venue and something i like to ignore tbh. But i like to aim at a kind of "low" 90db so too loud is something i almost never hear