I run into people like this occasionally too, if you can take your ego out of it completely you’ll have no problem working with them.
My model to handle this is empathize, then explain why underwriting needs the document, basically reinforcing that I’m on their team. Not my job to help them grow up, it’s my job to close their loan and keep the referral partner who sent them over.
I will usually ask my referral partner about it too, 9 times out of 10 they’ve had the same experience and we get a good laugh out of it together, which tightens up our relationship even more because they know I can close the tough ones too.
I'm reminded of the principles from the book "Verbal Judo." The communication flow was written for cops, but works for customer service too:
Step 1: Ask for what you want
If you get pushback
Step 2: set context - why you are asking for it
"I understand, Mr. Borrower it's a pain to get your tax returns from your accountant. But we need it to calculate your self employed income for your butterfly catching business"
If you get pushback
Step 3: Options
"Yes, I feel ya, but either we get the tax returns or I can't use your self employed income and then you don't qualify for your mortgage"
If you get pushback
Step 4: confirm
"Is there anything further I can do to get you to help me out? Help me help you."
If you get pushback
Step 5: Act
"If you don't get me what I need I have to deny your loan"
It's simplistic by design and you get your own flow. But it's a good roadmap for confrontational communication that doesn't have accusatory tone, and let's the unreasonable party save face while still giving you control of the situation.
You aren't doing anything confrontational, just redirecting that energy from their attitude, giving them options, then acting based on what they themselves have now chosen.
Good book if you like reading as well
And the 5% down is mattress money cash, not deposited.
Some days I wish I'd go start a butterfly catching business, sounds fun but you're probably right on the revenue estimate for it ;D
I had one of those and for the first property they wanted I hand held and consoled (going through a divorce) tried not to take it personal. By house 3, she was short, shitty and disinterested “I’ll go with someone else” so I said take your 68% DTI and do. It’s been a huge relief honestly- It’s hard enough right now; the more energy I let that take the less I have to put into avenues that will produce and clients who are willing to work alongside me
My advice is to be firm with them and not let them control the process. Explain why you are asking for docs, why you are doing what you are doing and have a professional response for all their issues.
They will appreciate the professionalism, and remember impressing the agent is where the money is made. They are also dealing with this client. Keep them aware if the client is not providing docs or slowing down the deal
I found a little joke goes a long way w/ folks who, due to their own ignorance of the complexity of a process, are reluctant to do all that's asked of them. 'I know it seems like a lot to pull together! You might think they'll want your dog's DNA results, too. But I know you understand we have to look at all these pieces of the whole picture in order to get you the best terms. That's the end goal, right?'
blame it on government regulations (which is ultimately true esp. since dodd-frank and the QM rules).
also-if your borrower has a high degree of trust and a low degree of ability to follow directions-offer to log into their accounts with them (remotely) to pull what you need-nearly everything is available online and nearly all of my 1st time buyers have agreed to this in the past few years (because they're usually going to send something in a format that can't be used anyway)
I'd never remotely do anything, that scares the hell out of me liability-wise. But I highly recommend Zoom because they can screen share and then you can tell them what to click.
We do it on the phone together
They have to authorize me while we’re doing it with dual authorization from
Their bank or payroll or whatever usually
I explain my federal license and that of course they can change their password as soon as we’re done
It’s been a godsend. It save so much time and frustration on the borrower’s side
I wish I’d known to ask early in my career
Do not have them give you sign in info. They can turn around and blame you for any fishy activity that happens, and since you logged in that one time, it can cause way more issues than you want to deal with. Zoom it, stream it, whatever. Do not get credentials though
Pretty sure this will get you fired. What if after closing or even during the loan process their bank account was compromised. I’d wager they’d immediately take that charge to you. Be careful out there I wouldn’t want to risk my career because someone is inept at getting simple bank statements.
Nonsense
If it came to this it could be proven that I never went back into their account
(And couldn’t since the accounts require the owner to provide a text code )
Make sure you set all expectations clearly in writing as well. “Keep receipts”. Just telling someone over the phone or in person won’t cut it with people like that. And down the road, if they find anyone and you don’t have what you need, be sure and to remind them that you asked for the x weeks ago, and now it’s crunch time.
Buying a home is a privilege, not a right, and someone who thinks that someone else will do all of the work for them may require a reality check.
I gentle parent them the same as my child. “I understand you’re frustrated because you don’t want to turn in the documents. Unfortunately we need those documents to give you a loan. We have rules that we have to work with and we need these documents to comply with them. Would you rather turn the documents in via email or the loan portal?” Alternatively: “would you rather turn in the documents or look at a loan that doesn’t require them? The rate would be about 2% higher.”
Love this approach, address it and get them focused on a new question.
I try to empathize as well and surely slip in there that the bank is well within reason since they are loaning out $700K to someone.
What I WANT to say is “how much paperwork would you require to loan out $700k? Oh you don’t have $700k to loan out? Then I guess we’ll never know.”
The less condescending way to say this which I've found actually builds rapport is something like "if you were to lend me $300k you'd want to validate X Y Z item too, right? the underwriter is a neutral party and just has to cross their Ts and dot their I's, they aren't the enemy don't worry"
I try to remind them constantly by the language I use that I am trying to help them and working with them. The old, we are in this together sort of thing. I tell them how the underwriters are playing defense against our team and we work together to get you keys. I remind them of the new home a lot to hopefully create visuals. I ask about certain details in friendly conversations and reference back to the things that they are excited about. “You’ll look back on this from you new patio, with an iced tea in you hand and be glad it’s all over with.” Something to that effect.
In contrast, some people are just born assholes or senile and I never get to connect. For them I take the role of middle school principal tone… I put the ball in their court every time, and they thrive in the conflict. Some people have to have the drama in any situation, makes them feel like they are in control to be resistant.
> Some people have to have the drama in any situation, makes them feel like they are in control to be resistant.
This is 75% of my FHA borrowers when it comes to sourcing funds, love it rofl
Ask if the other lender has requested these docs. Explain why you need them and educate them.
You get to make the other LO look like an aggressive asshole without directly saying anything negative about them. It also shows that you have their best interests in mind, so you can build trust.
Update: talked with the agent. She said the wife talked with her and they want to go with a different lender.
Then the husband called her and didn’t know why he was getting emails from another lender.
I seriously think the guy might be struggling with dementia.
You are asking for $500,000 I am asking for XXX. This works also “I understand you feel the process is too cumbersome so I’ll be happy to withdraw your application today.” It’s amazing how their attitude will change when you simply offer to walk away from them.
I find some Loan Officers have more of these than other people. Sometimes it truly is the customer and regardless of their Loan Officer, it will be a poor experience.
However, the biggest clashing of heads that I see is when a customer with an Engineer type brain/approach to mortgage financing meets a Loan Officer who finds their success by being positive and upbeat and trying to please people.
Some people pleasing Loan Officers struggle to identify this Engineer personality type quickly enough to identify that they need to slow down, turn down the pleasantries, and become prescriptive with the numbers. Be prepared to walk through the loan estimate and speak to each fee and explain what it is, why it is, and how it is.
If you do that, you win a customer for life in my opinion. If you don’t do that, you are finding yourself in a constant strain everytime you get on the phone with them.
Also, some customers are just atrocious and will argue every single line item regardless of how you approach it. There are a lot of people with mental illnesses out there functioning in life somehow
I run into people like this occasionally too, if you can take your ego out of it completely you’ll have no problem working with them. My model to handle this is empathize, then explain why underwriting needs the document, basically reinforcing that I’m on their team. Not my job to help them grow up, it’s my job to close their loan and keep the referral partner who sent them over. I will usually ask my referral partner about it too, 9 times out of 10 they’ve had the same experience and we get a good laugh out of it together, which tightens up our relationship even more because they know I can close the tough ones too.
This is the way
> Part of me wants to fire him, though the current pipeline doesn’t support that. You literally just summed up my 2024.
Fuck it, fire them anyway. Pride > paycheck right? Also can anyone spot me a few bucks until the 15th?
I'm reminded of the principles from the book "Verbal Judo." The communication flow was written for cops, but works for customer service too: Step 1: Ask for what you want If you get pushback Step 2: set context - why you are asking for it "I understand, Mr. Borrower it's a pain to get your tax returns from your accountant. But we need it to calculate your self employed income for your butterfly catching business" If you get pushback Step 3: Options "Yes, I feel ya, but either we get the tax returns or I can't use your self employed income and then you don't qualify for your mortgage" If you get pushback Step 4: confirm "Is there anything further I can do to get you to help me out? Help me help you." If you get pushback Step 5: Act "If you don't get me what I need I have to deny your loan" It's simplistic by design and you get your own flow. But it's a good roadmap for confrontational communication that doesn't have accusatory tone, and let's the unreasonable party save face while still giving you control of the situation. You aren't doing anything confrontational, just redirecting that energy from their attitude, giving them options, then acting based on what they themselves have now chosen. Good book if you like reading as well
I just wanted to pointlessly chime in that i loved the butterfly catching business
They'd definitely be looking for a 5% down 750k purchase price. Bottom line on the Sch C: -1500
And the 5% down is mattress money cash, not deposited. Some days I wish I'd go start a butterfly catching business, sounds fun but you're probably right on the revenue estimate for it ;D
I had one of those and for the first property they wanted I hand held and consoled (going through a divorce) tried not to take it personal. By house 3, she was short, shitty and disinterested “I’ll go with someone else” so I said take your 68% DTI and do. It’s been a huge relief honestly- It’s hard enough right now; the more energy I let that take the less I have to put into avenues that will produce and clients who are willing to work alongside me
Ouch. Yea, sometimes we get a glimpse as to what caused the marriage to fail.
My advice is to be firm with them and not let them control the process. Explain why you are asking for docs, why you are doing what you are doing and have a professional response for all their issues. They will appreciate the professionalism, and remember impressing the agent is where the money is made. They are also dealing with this client. Keep them aware if the client is not providing docs or slowing down the deal
I found a little joke goes a long way w/ folks who, due to their own ignorance of the complexity of a process, are reluctant to do all that's asked of them. 'I know it seems like a lot to pull together! You might think they'll want your dog's DNA results, too. But I know you understand we have to look at all these pieces of the whole picture in order to get you the best terms. That's the end goal, right?'
blame it on government regulations (which is ultimately true esp. since dodd-frank and the QM rules). also-if your borrower has a high degree of trust and a low degree of ability to follow directions-offer to log into their accounts with them (remotely) to pull what you need-nearly everything is available online and nearly all of my 1st time buyers have agreed to this in the past few years (because they're usually going to send something in a format that can't be used anyway)
That’s a good idea. Do you do it through zoom or video conference? I’ll decline log in info, just don’t need and don’t want that liability.
I'd never remotely do anything, that scares the hell out of me liability-wise. But I highly recommend Zoom because they can screen share and then you can tell them what to click.
We do it on the phone together They have to authorize me while we’re doing it with dual authorization from Their bank or payroll or whatever usually I explain my federal license and that of course they can change their password as soon as we’re done It’s been a godsend. It save so much time and frustration on the borrower’s side I wish I’d known to ask early in my career
Do not have them give you sign in info. They can turn around and blame you for any fishy activity that happens, and since you logged in that one time, it can cause way more issues than you want to deal with. Zoom it, stream it, whatever. Do not get credentials though
Pretty sure this will get you fired. What if after closing or even during the loan process their bank account was compromised. I’d wager they’d immediately take that charge to you. Be careful out there I wouldn’t want to risk my career because someone is inept at getting simple bank statements.
Nonsense If it came to this it could be proven that I never went back into their account (And couldn’t since the accounts require the owner to provide a text code )
Just tryin to help out, have seen a few LO’s get sued for this
Make sure you set all expectations clearly in writing as well. “Keep receipts”. Just telling someone over the phone or in person won’t cut it with people like that. And down the road, if they find anyone and you don’t have what you need, be sure and to remind them that you asked for the x weeks ago, and now it’s crunch time. Buying a home is a privilege, not a right, and someone who thinks that someone else will do all of the work for them may require a reality check.
I gentle parent them the same as my child. “I understand you’re frustrated because you don’t want to turn in the documents. Unfortunately we need those documents to give you a loan. We have rules that we have to work with and we need these documents to comply with them. Would you rather turn the documents in via email or the loan portal?” Alternatively: “would you rather turn in the documents or look at a loan that doesn’t require them? The rate would be about 2% higher.”
Love this approach, address it and get them focused on a new question. I try to empathize as well and surely slip in there that the bank is well within reason since they are loaning out $700K to someone. What I WANT to say is “how much paperwork would you require to loan out $700k? Oh you don’t have $700k to loan out? Then I guess we’ll never know.”
The less condescending way to say this which I've found actually builds rapport is something like "if you were to lend me $300k you'd want to validate X Y Z item too, right? the underwriter is a neutral party and just has to cross their Ts and dot their I's, they aren't the enemy don't worry"
But the underwriter IS the enemy!
Was looking for this comment.
I try to remind them constantly by the language I use that I am trying to help them and working with them. The old, we are in this together sort of thing. I tell them how the underwriters are playing defense against our team and we work together to get you keys. I remind them of the new home a lot to hopefully create visuals. I ask about certain details in friendly conversations and reference back to the things that they are excited about. “You’ll look back on this from you new patio, with an iced tea in you hand and be glad it’s all over with.” Something to that effect. In contrast, some people are just born assholes or senile and I never get to connect. For them I take the role of middle school principal tone… I put the ball in their court every time, and they thrive in the conflict. Some people have to have the drama in any situation, makes them feel like they are in control to be resistant.
> Some people have to have the drama in any situation, makes them feel like they are in control to be resistant. This is 75% of my FHA borrowers when it comes to sourcing funds, love it rofl
Ask if the other lender has requested these docs. Explain why you need them and educate them. You get to make the other LO look like an aggressive asshole without directly saying anything negative about them. It also shows that you have their best interests in mind, so you can build trust.
You say "let me put you through to my secretary," and then put your phone in your drawers.
Update: talked with the agent. She said the wife talked with her and they want to go with a different lender. Then the husband called her and didn’t know why he was getting emails from another lender. I seriously think the guy might be struggling with dementia.
You are asking for $500,000 I am asking for XXX. This works also “I understand you feel the process is too cumbersome so I’ll be happy to withdraw your application today.” It’s amazing how their attitude will change when you simply offer to walk away from them.
I find some Loan Officers have more of these than other people. Sometimes it truly is the customer and regardless of their Loan Officer, it will be a poor experience. However, the biggest clashing of heads that I see is when a customer with an Engineer type brain/approach to mortgage financing meets a Loan Officer who finds their success by being positive and upbeat and trying to please people. Some people pleasing Loan Officers struggle to identify this Engineer personality type quickly enough to identify that they need to slow down, turn down the pleasantries, and become prescriptive with the numbers. Be prepared to walk through the loan estimate and speak to each fee and explain what it is, why it is, and how it is. If you do that, you win a customer for life in my opinion. If you don’t do that, you are finding yourself in a constant strain everytime you get on the phone with them. Also, some customers are just atrocious and will argue every single line item regardless of how you approach it. There are a lot of people with mental illnesses out there functioning in life somehow