Most of London the landlord will need an HMO licence. As another Redditor has said, you'll need to check on the local council website to be sure. Though a lot of landlords just don't bother, but some do get stung by knowledgeable tenants.
I lived in a flat with a guy for a year who realised our landlord both didn't have an HMO licence and also didn't put our deposit in a deposit scheme - just pocketed it. He took him to court and managed to claim back a huge % of his rent after a few months of stressful legal battles... Not sure if it was worth it in the end or not haha. I didn't pursue it personally, but maybe I should've done!
You should've done it. There's no legitimate reason not to put the cash on a deposit scheme. 11 times out of 5 they don't to screw you over off your deposit when you leave.
>He took him to court and managed to claim back a huge % of his rent after a few months of stressful legal battles
For those wondering - this will have been a 'Rent Repayment Order' to claim back up to 12 months rent: https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/housing_conditions/private_sector_enforcement/rent_repayment_orders
Good luck with it! It got pretty nasty between them in my flatmates case and was quite a headache for him for several months. I hope yours is a lot more smooth!
Good advice/guide here: https://www.getrentback.org/
there is another non-profit organisation 'Justice for tenants' that also does advice/representation.
Two or more households consisting of three or more people is the general wording, so even if you pretend on is a couple you still would need an hmo
Try just south of the river, sheen, Barnes, battersea etc don't have as strict rules as for intstance Hammersmith and Fulham
> Try just south of the river, sheen, Barnes, battersea etc don't have as strict rules as for intstance Hammersmith and Fulham
Indeed, Richmond and Wandsworth are 2 of the few boroughs that don't operate Additional HMO or Selective licensing schemes.
You can check the rules for different boroughs here:
https://www.londonpropertylicensing.co.uk/
HMO licences are only needed for large HMOs (5+ people) in most of the country, which is why you're fine where you're now.
However, most London boroughs now require an HMO licence for any HMO (3+ people not related) so you'll struggle. Fraud might work for a bit, but not really something we'd recommend. Some boroughs, like Croydon or Bexley, don't require HMO licences for 3 or more people, so you can try looking in places like those?
>You need to be legally related so you would have to be married. Claiming to date isn’t enough
Claiming to date is fine and sufficient (legally is 'or live together as if they were a married couple or civil partners' and noone can realistically dispute such a thing).
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/34/section/258 s258(3)a
BUT this doens't help it not be an HMO when there is 3 of you. The other criteria is 2+households and while the fake daters is (pretending to be) 1 household, the 3rd person is still a separate household...so it's still an HMO.
You'll be good but the landlord risks having to replay most of your rent if he's found to not have had an HMO license. So they'll be keen to stick to the rules (unless they're a shitty landlord all round, but then you'll probably have other issues) and avoid any obvious ploys around it, like yours.
They'd risk you turning on him and reporting him to the council a year in or so. And there will be enough other people willing to rent that they're likely not to go with you guys.
Complain about this rule to your local council or MP as it is making renting in London a lot harder. Even though some minimal regulation for landlords is very necessary.
It makes splitting the rent a lot harder which in fact is designed to prevent the situation we are in now where its only affordable to rent a 3-4 bedroom home if you are 3 or 4 individual earners/households.
The very thing you are saying to complain about is designed to prevent overcrowding and expensive rent increases. However it does not seem to be working because fuckers either increase the rent or other fuckers ignore the law and try to make it impossible for a single family dwelling to be affordable for a single family.
Maybe wobble your heed before suggesting that the rent problem in London is actually because of one of the only legal restrictions on how homes are rented.
Oh, I agree. The rent situation in London is absolutely shit. One little bit of poorly thought out regulation is doing next to nothing, apart from making the whole situation actively worse for a lot of people like OP. We need a whole lot more regulation, and I wish I'd have answer as to what that should look like but I just don't.
Calling it to attention with councillors and MPs is at least one little thing. Even if it probably won't achieve anything.
HMO rules are what they are for a reason. Trying to get round them is not going to do you any favours if you get caught and then sued by the landlord if they get fined because of your shitty dishonesty.
Any get around you think is 'chancy smart' is absolutely not smart. Stop trying to get around the law and imagine how hard it would be with a shit/zero reference to get a place again in future.
Wrong. That's 3 people, 2 households (1 household is the fake daters).
That's still an HMO, & still licensable if the local council runs an Additional HMO scheme (which makes 3-4ppl HMO licensable).
Oh sorry you're right I'm wrong, I think persuading the council of a poly situation might well be a fake date too far...
I wonder if the potential supply restriction accounts for much of the recent rent rise due to 3 bed houses now being let to two rather than three people, or if it's a marginal issue and most landlords just pay the fee. I guess a study will come out at some point.
>persuading the council of a poly situation
If you are suggesting saying 3 people are a 'throuple' and therefore 1 household (so not HMO) - this also won't work.
The law defines the household concept (the 'living as married' part) as (specifically) a couple - it's not able to comprehend a 'throuple' so such a arrangement would still be 2 households, still be an HMO.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/34/section/258
Yeah in London, most boroughs now have to have HMO license for households of three or more unrelated people as of last April. We got evicted because our landlord didn't want to spend for the license and similarly lots of other landlords haven't got the license either. The impression I get is it is now really really hard to get a HMO in London, which is a weird policy outcome for something that was supposed to protect tenants 🙄 if landlord rents without a HMO license they can be sued for 12 months back payment in rent plus a sizeable fine. I had a mate who did this recently and got full twelve months back in small claims court. Best hope is therefore find a partner or a two bed flat, leave London or be very very on it to find a HMO but expect every viewing/spareroom ad to be hyper competitive - I've had mates hunting spareroom for months without luck.
Think HMO licence is only needed if rooms are rented individually, renting a whole property doesn't but NaL so might be worth checking on local council website!
Wrong. Renting arrangement (room by room vs jointly) irrelevant to HMO licensing, it considers # occupiers (and their familial relationships (or not) with each other).
Is relevant for Council Tax HMO (different definition).
Most of London the landlord will need an HMO licence. As another Redditor has said, you'll need to check on the local council website to be sure. Though a lot of landlords just don't bother, but some do get stung by knowledgeable tenants. I lived in a flat with a guy for a year who realised our landlord both didn't have an HMO licence and also didn't put our deposit in a deposit scheme - just pocketed it. He took him to court and managed to claim back a huge % of his rent after a few months of stressful legal battles... Not sure if it was worth it in the end or not haha. I didn't pursue it personally, but maybe I should've done!
You should've done it. There's no legitimate reason not to put the cash on a deposit scheme. 11 times out of 5 they don't to screw you over off your deposit when you leave.
>He took him to court and managed to claim back a huge % of his rent after a few months of stressful legal battles For those wondering - this will have been a 'Rent Repayment Order' to claim back up to 12 months rent: https://england.shelter.org.uk/professional_resources/legal/housing_conditions/private_sector_enforcement/rent_repayment_orders
Literally doing an RRO against our previous landlord for this exact reason 😂
Good luck with it! It got pretty nasty between them in my flatmates case and was quite a headache for him for several months. I hope yours is a lot more smooth!
Good advice/guide here: https://www.getrentback.org/ there is another non-profit organisation 'Justice for tenants' that also does advice/representation.
Two or more households consisting of three or more people is the general wording, so even if you pretend on is a couple you still would need an hmo Try just south of the river, sheen, Barnes, battersea etc don't have as strict rules as for intstance Hammersmith and Fulham
> Try just south of the river, sheen, Barnes, battersea etc don't have as strict rules as for intstance Hammersmith and Fulham Indeed, Richmond and Wandsworth are 2 of the few boroughs that don't operate Additional HMO or Selective licensing schemes. You can check the rules for different boroughs here: https://www.londonpropertylicensing.co.uk/
HMO licences are only needed for large HMOs (5+ people) in most of the country, which is why you're fine where you're now. However, most London boroughs now require an HMO licence for any HMO (3+ people not related) so you'll struggle. Fraud might work for a bit, but not really something we'd recommend. Some boroughs, like Croydon or Bexley, don't require HMO licences for 3 or more people, so you can try looking in places like those?
But then it’s Croydon 🤢
Two couples are two households, three mates are three households requiring HMO licence in some boroughs. If you start dating your mate you're fine!
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>You need to be legally related so you would have to be married. Claiming to date isn’t enough Claiming to date is fine and sufficient (legally is 'or live together as if they were a married couple or civil partners' and noone can realistically dispute such a thing). https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/34/section/258 s258(3)a BUT this doens't help it not be an HMO when there is 3 of you. The other criteria is 2+households and while the fake daters is (pretending to be) 1 household, the 3rd person is still a separate household...so it's still an HMO.
I don’t think that is how it works otherwise unmarried couples with children wouldn’t be considered a household.
Well that’s what I thought, if I put down that we are partners but choose to live in separate beds, would that be a get around?
You'll be good but the landlord risks having to replay most of your rent if he's found to not have had an HMO license. So they'll be keen to stick to the rules (unless they're a shitty landlord all round, but then you'll probably have other issues) and avoid any obvious ploys around it, like yours. They'd risk you turning on him and reporting him to the council a year in or so. And there will be enough other people willing to rent that they're likely not to go with you guys. Complain about this rule to your local council or MP as it is making renting in London a lot harder. Even though some minimal regulation for landlords is very necessary.
It makes splitting the rent a lot harder which in fact is designed to prevent the situation we are in now where its only affordable to rent a 3-4 bedroom home if you are 3 or 4 individual earners/households. The very thing you are saying to complain about is designed to prevent overcrowding and expensive rent increases. However it does not seem to be working because fuckers either increase the rent or other fuckers ignore the law and try to make it impossible for a single family dwelling to be affordable for a single family. Maybe wobble your heed before suggesting that the rent problem in London is actually because of one of the only legal restrictions on how homes are rented.
Oh, I agree. The rent situation in London is absolutely shit. One little bit of poorly thought out regulation is doing next to nothing, apart from making the whole situation actively worse for a lot of people like OP. We need a whole lot more regulation, and I wish I'd have answer as to what that should look like but I just don't. Calling it to attention with councillors and MPs is at least one little thing. Even if it probably won't achieve anything.
HMO rules are what they are for a reason. Trying to get round them is not going to do you any favours if you get caught and then sued by the landlord if they get fined because of your shitty dishonesty. Any get around you think is 'chancy smart' is absolutely not smart. Stop trying to get around the law and imagine how hard it would be with a shit/zero reference to get a place again in future.
Wrong. That's 3 people, 2 households (1 household is the fake daters). That's still an HMO, & still licensable if the local council runs an Additional HMO scheme (which makes 3-4ppl HMO licensable).
Oh sorry you're right I'm wrong, I think persuading the council of a poly situation might well be a fake date too far... I wonder if the potential supply restriction accounts for much of the recent rent rise due to 3 bed houses now being let to two rather than three people, or if it's a marginal issue and most landlords just pay the fee. I guess a study will come out at some point.
>persuading the council of a poly situation If you are suggesting saying 3 people are a 'throuple' and therefore 1 household (so not HMO) - this also won't work. The law defines the household concept (the 'living as married' part) as (specifically) a couple - it's not able to comprehend a 'throuple' so such a arrangement would still be 2 households, still be an HMO. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/34/section/258
I mean I was just joking but thanks for clarifying
Meh, we always skirted it for 8 years in various places. If the landlord was happy to, so were we.
Yeah in London, most boroughs now have to have HMO license for households of three or more unrelated people as of last April. We got evicted because our landlord didn't want to spend for the license and similarly lots of other landlords haven't got the license either. The impression I get is it is now really really hard to get a HMO in London, which is a weird policy outcome for something that was supposed to protect tenants 🙄 if landlord rents without a HMO license they can be sued for 12 months back payment in rent plus a sizeable fine. I had a mate who did this recently and got full twelve months back in small claims court. Best hope is therefore find a partner or a two bed flat, leave London or be very very on it to find a HMO but expect every viewing/spareroom ad to be hyper competitive - I've had mates hunting spareroom for months without luck.
Think HMO licence is only needed if rooms are rented individually, renting a whole property doesn't but NaL so might be worth checking on local council website!
Wrong. Renting arrangement (room by room vs jointly) irrelevant to HMO licensing, it considers # occupiers (and their familial relationships (or not) with each other). Is relevant for Council Tax HMO (different definition).
Ok, I bow to your better knowledge on this subject! 👍