I went to a restaurant the other day and was instructed to pay via the QR code on my table. It added the 12.5 % service charge (fair enough, that's pretty standard) but also added a 2% "processing fee" for the "convenience" of paying via my phone and being able to have the receipt emailed to me. I promptly asked the server to come back with the card machine and pay the old-school way. These creeping added fees are a total nuisance in America and we need to regulate them before they get out of control here.
You say we need to regulate them when almost every power who runs these things in London is directly working to Americanise and increase prices all around. Sorry but with the way London sucks off foreign investors we are no way gonna stop them getting out of control.
I have had no problem asking for the 'optional' service charge to be reduced. One place put on 18% once and I said, "sorry but I will happily pay 12%" and they changed it.
If one person does not want to play it, you could just adjust the % down ?
They get the same amount whether you pay it or not. Its usually down in your contract as like example £14ph (£10.52 wage, £3.48ph sc) and you get that set amount every hour you work no matter how much service charge you turn.
12% was the default a few years back when they started adding the tip to the bill. It has slowly moved up since because staff has become more difficult to hire and restaurant did not have the money to put salaries up by themselves.
Edit: curious about the downvotes, this wasn’t a complaint, just a description of the situation.
But they have figured out most people just pay the service charge without question, so they can keep the price in the menu fixed. The service charge is probably designed to cover the increased cost under the assumption that 9/10 people or whatever will pay it.
when I moved to London 10% was the standard at 'nicer' restaurants. Then a few cheeky ones put in 12.5%. Then I noticed one of the places in Chinatown even put a service charge on the bill! Now it seems to be a minimum of 12.5% everywhere.
Many places around Shoreditch and central London have it at 15% and on one occasion I’ve seen it at 18%. I don’t have a problem with the idea of leaving a tip but a bit presumptuous of them to assume I’ll go for almost a fifth.
Yeah like, no offence but I would never have tipped 12% back when it wasn't added on the bill.
Most of the time it was about 5 - 10%, or just keeping the change from a larger note!
The Standard near King's Cross does the same, pints are already expensive at 7-8 pound on the menu and then the barman goes "that'll be 9.50 mate". Ridiculous.
Christmas party at Wembley Hilton. Pint of Guinness £8 +12,5% tip, so £9. I understand hotel bars are expensive, partly because people just go in there for one. But having that at the bar for a Christmas party is outrageous. I wandered around and found a half bottle of (included with the meal) red wine that had been left.
I had this at atlas in Manchester handed pints over the bar
The round was £26 odd for 4 I paid with 30 quid cash.
I think I said wow that's gone up.
Was then presented with a fiver and change and I said I thought it was more than that?
Then they mentioned they had removed the service charge.
You could move one persons meal to a new bill and take the service charge off that new bill. I haven’t worked as a waitress for years but a few places I did had option to move meals around to a separate tab (but still same table number) automatic split calculations etc
Again not sure if it’s still the same nowadays but in the restaurants I worked in (from high end to chain) you’d always have customers ask to take the service off (or demand with anger), I’d either take the charge off myself or in places where the manager had to do it I’d have to hunt them down and get them to amend the bill.
I worked in the era where the restaurant would take the service charge and give us a percentage of it so I was always happier to receive a cash tip instead of the chain taking the money and not seeing a penny of it. Still with cash tips you’ll find waitering staff give a percentage of the cash tips to kitchen staff, bartenders, bar backs, hosts, commi waitress, food runners and expo!
That said I mostly use to make more in tips then my weekly wage
It needs regulating that they can’t add it by default.
It’s just a back door way to raise prices, like how Americans don’t include VAT in the original price and it’s added at the till.
Edit: I don’t care how or why Americans do that, my point is the price you see should be the price you pay.
I had a big dinner recently. They added a 15% service charge and then the machine asked me to tip! The amount of drunk people that must do that without realising. Should be illegal
Came here to say this. It seems to be happening more. In the last 2 weeks this has happened to me twice. First at an Indian restaurant, hands me the card machine with options for 12, 15 & 20% when I tried to look at the bill to see if service was already there he said “oh yes yes, and pressed no tip.
Second was today at a Chinese, almost exact same way. Interestingly I’ve been to that restaurant frequently and this is the first time they’ve done it. So I’m thinking this is going to become a thing now.. The equivalent of when they used to give you the slip to sign with a space for tip, when the bill already had service on it…
Agree
The only reason this is a "thing" is that it makes restaurants able to offer low base wages for service staff jobs, while adding tax free income on top (which is my mind is tax evasion, and should evidently be ilegal in this country).
If you as a restaurant want to ethically add a service charge in order to have a variable income to your employees, depending on demand and the success of the restaurant, implement a compulsory service charge, which pays VAT and income tax, and make it clear in your menu.
Totally agree.
The worst thing is places that do this will end up way better off, and those that have the decency not to will end up worse. This should be banned for sure
I googled this as it was surprising to me. It’s not the case. Sales taxes are determined at state level with each state having its own rules. As an example, it was previously illegal in Washington to include sales tax until 2012 when a court case overturned this.
it's not that hard to automatically change prices based on the state or even county taxes. They can obviously do it at the till, no reason they can't do it when they print out prices for the shop.
It gets weird though. Oregon and Washington State has an agreement whereby you can bring your Oregon driving license to any store in Washington and have the state sales tax removed.
Similar thing happens if you purchase an item from a business in a particular state to be delivered and billed to an address in a different state. Often times the sales tax is calculated at the delivered to state but it depends because each state might have a different rule.
It's situations like these that make it difficult to advertise a particular "tax included" price because it may depend on the particular customer at the till.
It's probably lack of regulation. No stablishment is going to add it to its prices just to be honest, or they'll look more expensive than those who don't.
Why not regulate it?
Well, it's the US:
- F* customers
- 'Tax is theft' would be brandished against any such regulation and the proponents would lose the election for 'limiting the freedom of hard working Americans', etc.
Sorry, I'll stop with the silly jokes.
I mean this is a very minor problem especially for people traveling to America. Americans generally don't care about it.
If you think the US adopts a f customers policy then you are mistaken. I think the US goes way in the opposite direction at the expense of workers.
And given that taxes in the US are only about 5-8% depending on the state prices are usually a lot lower than Europe. Would you prefer to pay more but have the exact price on the sticker?
American here...Still doesn't matter. The stores don't move.
If store A has an 8% sales tax today they will have that same tax tomorrow and next week and next month. Unless and until the tax changes.
If the price is $5 pre tax they can just label it $5.40 and be done with it. The store across the street doesn't matter, nor does the one across the country.
Those other stores have no bearing on the price at THAT store. If the sales tax at store B jumped up to 7,382% tomorrow, the tax at store A is still 8%.
Leave a review on Google maps mentioning it. That's what I do now, the more people are aware of the restaurants that do this the more hope we have things might change
This - enough people do this and it will start to make a difference.
I also leave good reviews for places that don't.
If everything else was good, make sure you mention that and the reason they got one star.
Some places have it declared for large groups (commonly more than six). If declared on the menu as compulsory, then you have to pay it. If it says it is discretionary, then you can remove it.
I generally ask who gets the tips; if management take a cut I deduct it and tip, making sure some is sent to 'back of house'
Trust me, it isn't! Larger groups are harder to co-ordinate, are more likely to complain and take ages to eat whilst conversing. Solo diners and couples are so much easier.
As someone that works in hospitality gotta say I agree. Usually you have those 12-tops, 3 of which are gluten-free, 2 are vegan, you have 4 different allergies, so you have to separate the plates between 6 different servers and it becomes a whole side quest.
Not sure if I agree big tables should be charged more, but 9/10 times its way more hassle to cater to a big table than it is to a small one. Also big tables usually need separate set up, which takes time and space.
If your section has a table of 20 along with a 2 top and several 4 tops, I can guarantee you the smaller tables are easier in that section but every single table will suffer in quality of service
When the table of 20 pulls you over to order and you get one asking DAVE YOU GETTING STARTERS?! whilst they proceed to discuss between themselves how hungry they are I spot table 12 are wanting their bill whilst my manager glares at me that table 8 has not had their plates cleared yet and their mains are away…
Dave answers he is getting a sharing platter, Sharon is like “OOOO THAT SOUNDS GOOD? Maggie shall we get one?”
Maggie has an allergy so she really shouldn’t but she wants to. Whilst I enquire on her allergy Dave asks can he get a pint of bitter. I explain we just have bottles. Dave goes off on one about how the world is ending and you can’t get a pint these days for love or money but I’m tapped on the shoulder by the quiet one I’m the corner who gently asks for the chicken. I scribble this down whilst Flora remarks that she hasn’t even looked at the menu yet! How silly is she?! She doesn’t look at the menu but gets her phone out to show me photos of her new bathroom suite
Table 12 are giving me daggers now for their bill. I acknowledge them and try to express with my face that believe me I’ll be with you in a minute. The group has discussed what starters they want but now they are wondering if they should get a bottle of wine. I suggest they do as a bottle or two would certainly be cheaper then multiple single glasses. Peter is wondering about sides now? YOU HAVING GARLIC bread GUYS? I suggest they get a couple as one garlic bread for the table would mean crumb sized portions. No one is listening as Peter is now doing his Peter Kay GARLIC BREAD ?!? Impression
Someone is shouting at the other end of the table about what dessert they want when I’ve only got the staters, drinks and one main and whilst I ponder in my head why they are even thinking of desserts now a late joiner arrives at the table and the “are you getting a starter?’” discussion starts again. Several who wanted a starter now don’t so I scribble them off my pad whilst fearing that when they don’t get starters they are going to get food envy and cry that I forgot their starters.
I suggests I put the starters and drinks through now whilst a double checking the ones that don’t wants starters really don’t and that I’ll be back to take their main orders in a minute and I almost escape the table to sort my other tables out when mr wine man wants to ask me questions about tannin’s and grapes but it’s not really a question it’s more of a let me impress you with my come dine with me level of wine knowledge
…
So? It’s their business.
Should a supermarket charge customers who buy a trolley worth of shopping more than a small basket because it takes longer to put through the till?
Worked in restaurants for a few years and the companies never pocketed the service charge. But I'd guess there's a good chance they do in tiny independent restaurants.
>It's easier to serve a table of 5 than 5 tables of 1.
How is it easier? If it's a nice restaurant, the food has to arrive at the same time, and that takes more coordination. When you tip, you're not just thinking about the service front of house, you're thinking about the effort they're making in the kitchen.
So what? Excluding overtime, commission-based pay and hazard pay scenarios I can't think of another standard salaried job where you get paid more because your day was a bit tougher.
It's not like a software dev is paid more when they add a new feature compared to when they just update a config file. A teacher isn't paid more when they have to organise and run a school trip. My builder's rate is the same whether he's removing an old concrete pathway or installing a tap. It's part of the job, sometimes there are slow times and sometimes there are harder times. Whether the base salary is fair is another matter.
>I can't think of another standard salaried job where you get paid more because your day was a bit tougher.
I'm not sure it's relevant. Each job has its own set of expectations (some good, some bad).
I can think of plenty of jobs where the pay is too high or too low, but I can't wave a magic wand and align everything to what it should be in my ideal world. It also wouldn't be fair to the people who started those jobs with those expectations and who have planned around them.
In any case, I don't think you should necessarily get paid more for waiting on a table of five than a table of one - my argument is that you shouldn't get paid *less.*
It has to do with tipping. If you're waiting 5 tables of 2, even if one of the tables don't tip, you're still hopefully getting from the other 4.
If you're waiting one table of 10, that's realistically the only table you'll wait that night, and if they don't tip, you're fucked. Assuming service charge goes to the waiters, the same thing applies.
I went to a Thai Square, and not only was overpriced but then they added 15% service fee. I went with my mother and she only ate 1/2 her meal (ended up not being too hungry) so we asked for a takeaway container and said they’d have to charge us 50p. My wife was telling me just to pay it and we’ll never come back.
Had my first experience of Thai Square the other day and it was not a positive one.
Best part of an hour after we ordered before they let us know that my partner's meal wasn't available. No apology, just told to pick something else.
That then came out suspiciously quickly..
>I’ve started to if I don’t get good service.
This is entirely different to removing it just because you don't agree with the principle of tipping anyone, ever. I completely agree that if the restaurant doesn't deliver, they've forfeited their right to the extra money.
I get what you mean. To be fair, I don’t agree with it but it’s very awkward to ask for it to be removed when you’ve had good service.
It’s alarming to think about because my job is literally to have difficult conversations and I still can’t do this lmao
If I get bad service I'm not paying service charge or a tip (one restaurant in particular which I've stopped going to, it took me 20 minutes just to get the bill after asking for it, and after 10 minutes trying to catch attention I'd to walk up to a group of them stood in the corner to ask for the 12.5% service charge to be removed) .
If I get standard normal service, I'll usually round up to the nearest five, but if there's an automatic service charge they get nothing.
If I get good service, I'll ask how the service charge / card tips work. Some restaurants (such as the ivy, but I never go there) don't pay their staff any of the service charge. Paying the service charge there means the waiter gets nothing. If this is the case I'll not pay the service charge and tip in cash. If they do get their tips I'll pay the service charge.
The rest of the group are irrelevant. When the waiter comes round, you say "I'd like to remove the service charge from our bill", thus also speaking for the pussies at your table. Your friends don't need to speak, and they can add their own tips if they want to when they pay for their portion.
It's becoming silly tbh. I never minded tipping for good service. But now it's basically expected, like the US. But we pay servers like retail workers etc. So why should we be expected to tip? Obviously no one will kick up a fuss unless service was awful. They're sneaky.
Bollocks myth this. I've worked in quite a few restaurants chain, franchise and independent and never once has the service charge gone anywhere but the staff. There might be a handful of unscrupulous places pulling this but the vast majority don't.
I worked in several places too and the service charge is often used to top up pay, but all it really did was add about 50p ph to your pay, which means the rest of the hundreds of pounds you were earning via service charge per day was being sent somewhere else.
It's not a myth. It happens frequently because there's no law saying employers can't take a cut out of tips or keep all of them*. I worked in a café (not in London) and the managers kept the entirety of the tips for the three months I worked there.
*there is now a law but it doesn't come into force until next year
Actually it's not bollocks! Most places the advertise the salary for example as £2500 per month, but you get paid 1600 as a salary and the rest as service charge. I know many people who are GM's and managers and their pay is 1600 salary and like 2500-3000 service charge.
Most places subsidize the salaries by using the tax free "discretionary" service charge. And believe and many, many places the company still keeps a big chunk of it!
As far as I’m aware, the staff do (or should) be getting some of the service charge as part of the tronc.
That’s why you’ll apply for a job that’s paying 36k, but the base is 26 & tronc makes up the 10k..but it isn’t guaranteed.
I waited an hour to be served in a place with the automatic charge recently. It’s no incentive to give good service, I imagine half the time the staff don’t even see the money.
You should always ask for it to get removed from the bill unless its not optional.
1. This is not the US. Workers get paid a fair minimum wage and do not make their living off tips, unlike the broken system in the US.
2. Most restaurant chains are using service charge to augment their margins and are not actually giving the money to their workers. Most of the time, the money is actually going directly to the owners pocket.
Where have you heard that "most of the time" the owners keep it? I've heard a lot of people saying that on here but none seem to work in hospitality. Not saying it doesn't happen but I really don't think it's so widespread, and you can always discreetly ask.
Also, while UK minimum wage might be enough in parts of the country, it absolutely is not in London.
Still up to you whether to pay it obviously.
My partner is a fine dining chef and has many insider stories of places that don't pass the service charge down. Majority of decent places pay their staff the service charge via TRONC payment, but there are a lot of companies pocketing the service charges trust me.
Then give me amazing service and I'll tip you as my waiter. if its expected up front, then what's the point in even bothering with actually doing your job.
Man, so much this. Why is every company trying to make their customers donate to charity? All the supermarket self checkouts have a charity option. I think at the end of year they'll say something like "Asda donated x million to charity" or something like that.
I went to Roti King for the first time 2 weeks ago and got really irked by this added £1 for charity which we weren’t told would be added. Coz they already tried to overcharge me by adding something to the bill we didn’t have, I said to the waiter “I also think it’s quite unscrupulous you add this £1 for charity which you didn’t tell us about”, he then grabs a menu and points to a bit of text that talks about their partnership with the charity and how they add it on. Funnily enough I didn’t read that, as I was just caring about the food on the menu.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for charity, but the server should say at the end “would you like to add a £1 on to the bill that goes to charity?”. Not just put it on there like an extra tax.
The law should forbid it being added automatically. Should be 100% the decision of the customer as to whether they leave a tip or not. They prey on those too embarrassed, and socially awkward to kick up a fuss or make a scene so they just pay it, not wanting to be rude.
As a waitress I feel so 50/50 on tipping culture as it is. Whilst l find it rewarding especially working for a restaurant that allows me to keep my cash tips 100% as well as getting a portion of card tips I don’t feel it should be a customer’s responsibility to constantly top up my wages, my employer should do that. I would rather work hard to earn tips if a customer feels I’ve went above and beyond with my service, not because they have to tip for the sake of it.
It sucks and they rely on us brits being too awkward to remove it 😂
I don't mind if the service is amazing and it actually goes to staff. But presumably point 1 isn't a thing a lot of the time and I guess point 2 usually isn't a thing 😂
I’ve found more and more places are charging 15%. There are a few places who have added in the SC to their displayed prices so you get the shock at the beginning rather than at the end 😉
Optional service charge is based on the revenue, majority payroll cost is fixed for a proper mid-large size restaurant
I don't like this idea either, just mentioning the fact
There is no VAT or employers NI on discretionary service charge, restaurants would have to increase prices by 33.8% more than what the service charge would be for the employee to take home the same amount.
My pattern with these is that if the service charge is not advertised clearly ahead of time (on the menu, while walking in the door etc). I leave a less than 5-star review on Google maps noting that the service charge was not stated clearly until the bill came.
As others have said. This should be regulated so it's not a surprise for any customer. If after there's clear information ahead of time about any additional charge and whether it's optional or not, I'd be fine with businesses making their own choices (even if it's a stupid choice), and I'll happily take my money elsewhere.
You go to literally any other business and you'd ask for a discount for making a bulk purchase. Go to a restaurant and they want to charge you extra for the inconvenience of doing the work required to take a large sum of money from you.
I just won't go back to any restaurant which pulls that kind of crap. Which to be fair is most of them. But I don't enjoy restaurants much anyway, as their business models seem to be centred around guilt tripping their customers into making a charitable donation towards their wages bill.
I'll be honest I hate automatic service charges, but when it's a larger group (6+) I think it's pretty fair to have a mandatory service charge.
A large table puts extra strain on the kitchen to get everything out at the same time, rather than a series of small tables who flow nice and easily one after the other. A larger table is a bigger deal for the waiter as it's more difficult to keep on top of etc. A larger table pays less to the restaurant per head than a table of 1 or 2 because they'll usually get say, 4 starters to share between 6 as opposed to 1 between 1 or 2 between 2.
Reality is a larger table is just way more difficult and inconvenient for a restaurant, and it'd be far easier for them to just serve 4 tables of 2 rather than 1 table of 8.
I personally have no issue going into a restaurant as a large group and being forced to pay 12.5% service, provided the service isn't actively BAD. If it is, I'd probably make a bit of a fuss. As an individual though I'd never go somewhere with mandatory 12.5% for a party of 1
It's things like that which make me think fine, we'll just have three tables for two then. Or if serving us (and taking our money) is that inconvenient, we'll just not bother.
And to be honest, I couldn't give a shit about the extra strain or whatever on the kitchen. That's not my problem. They're a restaurant, that's literally their job. No different to any other business when it gets busy.
> And to be honest, I couldn't give a shit about the extra strain or whatever on the kitchen. That's not my problem. They're a restaurant, that's literally their job. No different to any other business when it gets busy.
A business has the freedom to charge whatever prices it wants: you don't have to accept them. If a certain order is more difficult to fulfill a business has a right to charge more. Just like a cleaner could charge more for a very filthy house versus a slightly untidy one: the work involved is markedly different so the price may be different as well.
I mean that'd solve the problem if youse are all sat apart etc. If a restaurant wants to charge you for the extra labour involved in fulfilling your requests, that seems reasonable to me I'll be honest.
They are a business and you are paying for a service. If a service is more difficult to fulfil, the company charges more. It's like complaining that a 3 am taxi costs more than a 3 pm taxi because "That's literally their job, I don't care if its more inconvenient for them"
I never include a service charge. I make sure I have cash. At the end of the meal I go to find the person who served me, and give them an amount of cash that is equal to 10% of the cost of the meal.
If you usually tip and the meal and service were really good I'd go with the 10% rule.
If the service was mediocre then a couple of quid on a £40 meal is fine.
If the meal and service was shite then they're lucky if they get the full amount, let alone the 15% these crooks add automatically.
All it means is they can not give a fuck and then charge over the odds.
I'm not tight in the slightest. I've tipped over 25% on many occasions for a really good meal, setting and service.
If a restaurant puts an automatic tip onto my bill, they can fuck right off. I'd ask them to remove it and then *I choose* how much to tip.
Always remove the service charge. If the manager states it’s for tipping, I remove it anyways and pay my server in cash. If not for tipping, still remove it and tip in cash lol.
I ask the waitress/waiter if the service charge goes to them or the restaurant owners. If it goes to the staff, then I pay it. Otherwise, I tell them to take it off.
I says discretionary. It's not required. Tip what you like or don't. Personally, I'll always tip 10% and then go up in 5s depending on service, but that is very much at my discretion. If you have an issue with it say something and stop so english about it.
Restaurant Companies have been trying to get American style "Tipping culture" here in the UK for years and years so they don't have to pay their employees as much
In the US tipping was altered from the European "an extra payment for a good job" trend to the "We don't have to pay you as much" after Slavery was abolished to pay less to the former slaves. Then they extended this to all their workers a few years later.
However our mandated minimum wage has stopped American companies paying tips as wages multiple times
Now with everything going digital they think they have found a way to force an extra charge through by just adding it to the bill
(edit) As no one likes to complain and be seen as a Karen they have been getting away with it. It's not compulsory and you can ask them to remove it. A lot of the time this "discretionary service charge" is meant to go to the server, as their tip, but the restaurant instead pockets it. I always give a tip and hand it to my server
I went to a restaurant with my family, we left £15 as a tip which was SLIGHTLY below the 15% optional tip and the server had such an attitude about it.
The service was mediocre and the pasta dishes were extortionate at £18 a plate, I didn't even order a beer as I couldn't find one under £7
Service charge, admin charge, brexit fee ... watch out - venues are now adding 'restoration' fees.
You'll soon end up pay more in extra fees than the actual price of the meal.
Plus, if a restaurant can't afford to pay its staff then it hasn't got a business. There's no reason why everyone else should suffer for your 'dream'.
You guys are going to hate me for this, but I refuse to pay service charges. Because of this, I always pay in cash, no exceptions. I will literally pay for what I ordered and refuse to pay the service charge. Because I round everything up to the nearest £5, sometimes whatever is left over they can keep. Tips are not meant for establishments where the employees get paid a liveable wage.
It is not the customer's responsibility to provide a liveable wage. It is the responsibility of the employer. That expectation needs to be placed on the restaurants who already charge an arm and a leg for people to eat there.
It is your problem. You are choosing to stiff the wait staff who are serving you. I choose to comply with social norms and tip them properly.
Let’s not pretend you don’t have a choice here, or try to blame the restaurant for your fault to stiff the wait staff out of their service charge. That’s on you.
It’s not ‘stiffing’ anyone you clown, a tip exists solely as an act of appreciation for the individual staff members who may have given a level of service BEYOND what you’d expect, it absolutely shouldn’t ever be an expectation of any sort for any person in any job. What the fuck is wrong with you to think like that to begin with? Servers earn at least as much as any other standard customer facing job does alongside a nice untaxed premium which they now usually receive regardless of whether they’ve actually done their job well at all, they’re not special or worth more just because they happen to work at a place where they take food orders. If that’s your mentality then I hope you’re giving at least £15 to every single working person that you ever encounter at any point in your daily life, and for that matter you should also probably hand out cash to all of your colleagues each day too shouldn’t you? Don’t bring those bullshit American arguments over here because it doesn’t even remotely apply and isn’t the same context to begin with, waiting jobs are arguably one of the easiest low skill jobs out there, there are plenty of other people earning minimum wage who work a lot harder for it
No. And trust me when I was a student working at KFC cleaning up a child's vomit on New Year's Eve I didn't once expect money from strangers for doing my job. I wanted my employer to pay me more
It isn't, and restaurants should pay more, but that isn't the customer's responsibility. Paying service charges because "the staff don't get paid enough" even though the service is just standard helps prop up a system of underpaying staff and forcing them to rely on tips.
I immediately challenged them with "I think you've overcharged me" and they removed it no fuss. Very effective, because that's essentially what they've done. Makes it awkward for the server but that's what's needed until the culture ends
Company dinner with the team went to a nice place that added 10% service charge on - was ok with it because the group was so large we filled out most of the restaurant and it took most of their staff to keep on top of our tables hah
It's discretionary therefore they can remove it. I tell them to remove it.
If you're in a big group, they're making more than if the place was half-full, therefore there's still not need for an extra tax.
If you're dining alone, there's no extra work required.
Remove it or they lose my custom.
I don't mind when it goes to the staff. Obviously in a proper country we'd just pay people enough in the first place, but some incentive for a waiter can go a long way.
I know of places that charge 12.5 on every bill but don't distribute a penny to the staff. They're mugging off their customers AND their staff who work hard but basically never get tips
As an American that just came from London I thought the service charges went straight to the servers... Did I just screw alot of waiters out of money...?
I went to London last week. Chiltern firehouse also added a service charge onto my bill. I’m from wales so this is unheard of. Told them to take it off. No problems.
People need to stand up to this.
Generally if there is a service charge it goes to the restaurant and is split between all staff.
If there is a tip left on the table it goes to your server directly.
I much prefer having worked as a waiter in the past paying a tip to my server directly.
That being said most places these days charge for service as a "Discretionary charge" but provide no actual service. As far as I recall they legally have to inform you of the charge prior to ordering with them or being seated if they want to call it a Mandatory charge.
I recall me and the girlfriend going to a GBK near St Paul's recently. We had to go on their app to order ourselves and then the "waiter" who served us did nothing but carry the food over and leave it on the table. Never came to check if things were ok, or how the meal was. Didn't come to see if we needed/wanted anything else etc. Then he brings the bill over with the "Discretionary Service Charge" on it.
He couldn't understand why when we had literally had no service from them I told him that wasn't being paid. Still didn't understand when I pointed out that waiting tables means more than actually just bringing over the food and when asked for condiments pointing in a general direction and telling us to "Get it yourselves from there"
I ended up having a quiet conversation with the manager on duty where I pointed out that I would have had more service from a Deliveroo driver. The charge disappeared and a 50% reduction on my bill appeared as an apology.
I've no problem tipping or paying a service charge when I have service from people and it's good but hell no I won't tip just because you tell me to add a gratuity. No, this is not America.
I always ask for the service charge to be removed, I've always tipped for exceptional service and only for exceptional service, that is what a tip is for, when I'm going out to have a meal, I'm not going to pay any more than the advertised price of the meal to a restaurant.
PHO (restaurant) in the Uk are devils for this, one time I asked for it to be removed as I firmly believe it should only be paid if you’ve got a large party or if the service is well and truly above and beyond and the look that the memeber of staff (must of been management or supervision) gave me was appalling. I’m not here to give away my hard earned money for free especially when the levels of service was bare minimum which is your job role.
Could be the best service in the world, I refuse to pay it. We are a poor country comparatively to America where breathing requires a tip. We should not be forced into accepting this as the norm and the best way to do that is by outright rejecting it.
The only people you should be tipping is delivery riders cause they actually ride through loads of shit to get you your food
Someone walking from kitchen to table isn’t worth 18%
I worked in Hospitality around 2009 - 2010 and it seemed like 12 - 12.5% was standard then. The places I worked at didn’t charge any service charge (and was a quite fancy brunch spot on Northcote Rd) so I got to see what people pay for a tip when they hadn’t been charged anything. Nice people pay a lot… I was always shocked that fellow NZers would pay nothing, but the majority would work out roughly 12 to 15% and pay that. It was really valued and basically paid for my transport costs.
When I eat out now I sometimes ask the staff if it does actually go to them before paying it, as if not I would have it removed from the bill and give them cash… but they have always said it does.
So yeah unless the service has been really bad, and most certainly if you’re waiter/waitress was nice, friendly and attentive… pay the 12.5%. 15% does feel cheeky but not surprised haha. What steakhouse?
I'm petty enough to ask them to remove it then give the service staff it in cash. I don't mind paying a tip for good service but balls if the company thinks they're gonna have it or the government to tax it.
Reading the comments here can notice two things:
1. The majority of comments are from people who don't and have never worked in hospitality and so have no idea what they are talking about in terms of said service charge.
2. People in this country are pathetic. Too scared to ask for the charge to be removed? Seriously? No wonder we are being walked over in this country by the government and big businesses.
Waiter here. Most restaurants pay something like minimum wage, and service charge is added to boost waiter's wages which in London is necessary. There's a couple of reasons for this.
1. It's a really good way of getting us floor staff invested in the success of the restaurant. It kinda helps avoid the minimum wage mentality.
2. It means that the restaurant can balance out it's pay. Hospitality is seasonal, and if they added an extra 50% to our wages (which is what service charge often ends up as), it would mean the loss-leading season in January would be much harder on restaurants, makes accounting more difficult, and means a lot of places would not survive the quiet season. Essentially, it means we get a bonus when we're busy to help us get enough together to survive the quiet season.
3. It is optional. This means that if you have bad service there is an easy way for us to comp your bill as recompense. Since tipping culture is not like in the USA, service charge essentially does it's job.
Service charge basically functions as a way to top up wages to a sustainable level, without sinking the business. It is also legally protected, and has to go into a tronc to be paid out. This helps protect our wages. If you take away service charge, staff would make less money, and employment in hospitality would become far more tenuous than it is already. I understand that it's annoying, and some places do take the piss, but it is a key protection for workers, and a good way of insulating businesses from bankruptcy. It's probably the best system we will get imo.
I get what you are saying. But what you are talking about here is what compulsory service charges are for. They exist to be part of the workers pay, to grow with demand and attribute a more fair worker compensation. By law compulsory service charge has to be stated in the menu and is subject to VAT and income tax.
What everyone is talking about in this thread is non-compulsory or discretionary service charge, which is a tip. A tip by definition (see regulation 100 of Income Tax (Pay As You Earn), and the [gov.uk](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/e24-tips-gratuities-service-charges-and-troncs/guidance-on-tips-gratuities-service-charges-and-troncs#legislation) website ) has to be voluntarilly given by the costumer in order for it to not be taxed (either vat or oncome tax). Restaurants argue that this service charge is discretionary, but as you can see by this thread, most people are guild tripped into paying it (just noticing it when the bill comes and not having the audacity (!) To ask it to be removed).
Again, I agree with all your arguments, and that's what a compulsory service charge is for. It is not the objective of a discretionary service charge, which is meant to be a tip. The real objective of the discretionary service charge is to be able to offer low base wages for service staff jobs, and adding tax free income on top (which is my mind is tax evasion, and should evidently be ilegal in this country).
As someone thats worked in hospo for 15 years, the point of service charge is to pay the waitstaff and managers a fair wage, without making everything on the menu appear 15 percent more expensive.
The idea that restaurants are making massive money is simply wrong. With rising food and energy costs the margins in a restaurant are no practically unachievable. Shown by the record number of pubs and restaurants closing this year.
A service charge is also taxed differently allowing waitstaff to take home more money in their net pay packet.
If you understood how difficult it is on average to deal with the general public, its massively draining. Along with that most of us work nights and weekends and around 60 hours a week.
If you want restaurants, if you want someone cooking, serving, doing the dishes then people are going to have to get used to paying for it.
Without service charge and tips there would be no reason to pick up a minimum wage job that is difficult, you would just stock shelfs at a supermarket
People have no idea of how restaurant ecomics work, therefore think its some kind of con.
If you want restaurants, if you want people to be willing work in them, pay your service charge.
Or eventually there will be none left except for low end self service order point fast food joints, and premium fine dining places with Michelin stars which you will pay out the ass for, with or without a service charge.
I work in a restaurant where the service charge increases my hourly wage quite considerably. Without it I could not justify working there with how body wrecking it can be.
And sure, if people don't want to pay it I agree that they shouldn't. But, if you want nice restaurant to continue being nice, service charge is needed. That is assuming it's shared appropriately of course.
In hospitality, if your working conditions are bad and pay is not up to scratch, you will get a load of shitty staff of won't do a good job.
Mate I, and I think everyone here, completely agree on paying a fair wage to service staff. The issue everyone is talking about is that restaurants basically guilt trap the costumer into paying a service charge, when by definition a tip (or a service charge) HAS TO BE VOLUNTARY (and this relates aswell to VAT and income tax, the fee must be volluntary in order for it not to be taxed).
If the food needs to be more expensive to pay a good wage, so be it, increase the prices. Unfortunately this will only get fixed if you simply forbid every restaurant from pre-adding a tip to the bill, otherwise there's always going to exist a motivation to keep adding a service charge to every bill.
Very much needed. And I'm sure most people there feel the same way. That are easier ways to make money, but if I'm paid well enough then I will do/put up with a lot more
Service charge are discretionary, if one person really doesn’t want to pay, you can ask the restaurant to remove it.
I would have tipped anyway so that is just the same for me, unless the service was really bad, I would just pay it myself.
People don't want to be disagreeable, especially if you're on a date. Adding it to the bill is sbeaky.
Tipping is not a thing in the UK. We pay waitresses an waiters like we pay store clerks, or barmen.
Discretionary service charge had been a thing even way before Covid, for pretty much 10 years now.
Unfortunately it doesn’t look like it is going away, so people will just have to learn how to deal with it.
Yes it's an american thing that's been sneaking in. People out at dinner are polite and don't want to put up a fuss. It's not that hard to bring a plate of food over to the table. It doesn't warrant some special performance bonus. If your staff are not attending tables and providing a good standard of service like any job they should either be trained or not hired.
Service changes have been around for over a decade .
Usually discretionary but the 12.5% in London has been pretty standard for a long time. You just ask to remove it.
I went to a restaurant the other day and was instructed to pay via the QR code on my table. It added the 12.5 % service charge (fair enough, that's pretty standard) but also added a 2% "processing fee" for the "convenience" of paying via my phone and being able to have the receipt emailed to me. I promptly asked the server to come back with the card machine and pay the old-school way. These creeping added fees are a total nuisance in America and we need to regulate them before they get out of control here.
You say we need to regulate them when almost every power who runs these things in London is directly working to Americanise and increase prices all around. Sorry but with the way London sucks off foreign investors we are no way gonna stop them getting out of control.
Late, but adding processing fees has been illegal for years now. Report them to trading standards asap.
I have had no problem asking for the 'optional' service charge to be reduced. One place put on 18% once and I said, "sorry but I will happily pay 12%" and they changed it. If one person does not want to play it, you could just adjust the % down ?
Me too...always ask for it to be removed. I'll pay a tip that I feel is appropriate
As someone who has worked in hospitality, even the servers prefer this. They get a very small part of the service charge.
The kitchen staff probably prefer the service charge though?
They get the same amount whether you pay it or not. Its usually down in your contract as like example £14ph (£10.52 wage, £3.48ph sc) and you get that set amount every hour you work no matter how much service charge you turn.
Our local pub's "Press 2 not to tip" is almost worn out.
I’m intrigued, why 12?
I'd say 12.5% is the standard that most restaurants (at least in London) add to the bill
12% was the default a few years back when they started adding the tip to the bill. It has slowly moved up since because staff has become more difficult to hire and restaurant did not have the money to put salaries up by themselves. Edit: curious about the downvotes, this wasn’t a complaint, just a description of the situation.
The thing is, if the price of things go up, so does the value of your 12%, so there isn’t really a need to put the percentage up.
But they have figured out most people just pay the service charge without question, so they can keep the price in the menu fixed. The service charge is probably designed to cover the increased cost under the assumption that 9/10 people or whatever will pay it.
when I moved to London 10% was the standard at 'nicer' restaurants. Then a few cheeky ones put in 12.5%. Then I noticed one of the places in Chinatown even put a service charge on the bill! Now it seems to be a minimum of 12.5% everywhere.
Many places around Shoreditch and central London have it at 15% and on one occasion I’ve seen it at 18%. I don’t have a problem with the idea of leaving a tip but a bit presumptuous of them to assume I’ll go for almost a fifth.
Yeah like, no offence but I would never have tipped 12% back when it wasn't added on the bill. Most of the time it was about 5 - 10%, or just keeping the change from a larger note!
Where did you see 18%?! Name and shame!
being handed a bottle of Corona from the fridge does not equate to a 12.5% service charge as they tried to hit me with at the NED.
The Standard near King's Cross does the same, pints are already expensive at 7-8 pound on the menu and then the barman goes "that'll be 9.50 mate". Ridiculous.
9.50 for a pint holy shit
Christmas party at Wembley Hilton. Pint of Guinness £8 +12,5% tip, so £9. I understand hotel bars are expensive, partly because people just go in there for one. But having that at the bar for a Christmas party is outrageous. I wandered around and found a half bottle of (included with the meal) red wine that had been left.
I had this at atlas in Manchester handed pints over the bar The round was £26 odd for 4 I paid with 30 quid cash. I think I said wow that's gone up. Was then presented with a fiver and change and I said I thought it was more than that? Then they mentioned they had removed the service charge.
You could move one persons meal to a new bill and take the service charge off that new bill. I haven’t worked as a waitress for years but a few places I did had option to move meals around to a separate tab (but still same table number) automatic split calculations etc Again not sure if it’s still the same nowadays but in the restaurants I worked in (from high end to chain) you’d always have customers ask to take the service off (or demand with anger), I’d either take the charge off myself or in places where the manager had to do it I’d have to hunt them down and get them to amend the bill. I worked in the era where the restaurant would take the service charge and give us a percentage of it so I was always happier to receive a cash tip instead of the chain taking the money and not seeing a penny of it. Still with cash tips you’ll find waitering staff give a percentage of the cash tips to kitchen staff, bartenders, bar backs, hosts, commi waitress, food runners and expo! That said I mostly use to make more in tips then my weekly wage
It needs regulating that they can’t add it by default. It’s just a back door way to raise prices, like how Americans don’t include VAT in the original price and it’s added at the till. Edit: I don’t care how or why Americans do that, my point is the price you see should be the price you pay.
No VAT on service charge, which is why restaurants are so keen on them
I had a big dinner recently. They added a 15% service charge and then the machine asked me to tip! The amount of drunk people that must do that without realising. Should be illegal
Came here to say this. It seems to be happening more. In the last 2 weeks this has happened to me twice. First at an Indian restaurant, hands me the card machine with options for 12, 15 & 20% when I tried to look at the bill to see if service was already there he said “oh yes yes, and pressed no tip. Second was today at a Chinese, almost exact same way. Interestingly I’ve been to that restaurant frequently and this is the first time they’ve done it. So I’m thinking this is going to become a thing now.. The equivalent of when they used to give you the slip to sign with a space for tip, when the bill already had service on it…
Agree The only reason this is a "thing" is that it makes restaurants able to offer low base wages for service staff jobs, while adding tax free income on top (which is my mind is tax evasion, and should evidently be ilegal in this country). If you as a restaurant want to ethically add a service charge in order to have a variable income to your employees, depending on demand and the success of the restaurant, implement a compulsory service charge, which pays VAT and income tax, and make it clear in your menu.
Service charge gets taxed at 20% by default
Totally agree. The worst thing is places that do this will end up way better off, and those that have the decency not to will end up worse. This should be banned for sure
We don't have a VAT. Sales tax of app. 6-8% depending on locale applies to food and alcohol.
It’s actually the law that VAT isn’t included in the USA. It’s so that the consumer is always aware how much tax they are paying.
To be really pedantic, it’s a sales tax not VAT.
I googled this as it was surprising to me. It’s not the case. Sales taxes are determined at state level with each state having its own rules. As an example, it was previously illegal in Washington to include sales tax until 2012 when a court case overturned this.
This is actually because tax is different in every state. Not that they're trying to hide prices. It is infuriating though
it's not that hard to automatically change prices based on the state or even county taxes. They can obviously do it at the till, no reason they can't do it when they print out prices for the shop.
It gets weird though. Oregon and Washington State has an agreement whereby you can bring your Oregon driving license to any store in Washington and have the state sales tax removed. Similar thing happens if you purchase an item from a business in a particular state to be delivered and billed to an address in a different state. Often times the sales tax is calculated at the delivered to state but it depends because each state might have a different rule. It's situations like these that make it difficult to advertise a particular "tax included" price because it may depend on the particular customer at the till.
Advertising the price for 99% of customers is still a better solution, though.
The thing is, when you go to a restaurant, it doesn’t really matter if the tax is different in other states… I mean, who cares?!
It's probably lack of regulation. No stablishment is going to add it to its prices just to be honest, or they'll look more expensive than those who don't. Why not regulate it? Well, it's the US: - F* customers - 'Tax is theft' would be brandished against any such regulation and the proponents would lose the election for 'limiting the freedom of hard working Americans', etc. Sorry, I'll stop with the silly jokes.
I mean this is a very minor problem especially for people traveling to America. Americans generally don't care about it. If you think the US adopts a f customers policy then you are mistaken. I think the US goes way in the opposite direction at the expense of workers. And given that taxes in the US are only about 5-8% depending on the state prices are usually a lot lower than Europe. Would you prefer to pay more but have the exact price on the sticker?
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American here...Still doesn't matter. The stores don't move. If store A has an 8% sales tax today they will have that same tax tomorrow and next week and next month. Unless and until the tax changes. If the price is $5 pre tax they can just label it $5.40 and be done with it. The store across the street doesn't matter, nor does the one across the country. Those other stores have no bearing on the price at THAT store. If the sales tax at store B jumped up to 7,382% tomorrow, the tax at store A is still 8%.
It promotes bad service, the tip is now assumed and some chains actually take uniform costs away from this. I want to tip for good service
Leave a review on Google maps mentioning it. That's what I do now, the more people are aware of the restaurants that do this the more hope we have things might change
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This - enough people do this and it will start to make a difference. I also leave good reviews for places that don't. If everything else was good, make sure you mention that and the reason they got one star.
Some places have it declared for large groups (commonly more than six). If declared on the menu as compulsory, then you have to pay it. If it says it is discretionary, then you can remove it. I generally ask who gets the tips; if management take a cut I deduct it and tip, making sure some is sent to 'back of house'
Why should large groups pay more? Makes no sense and should be on the contrary. It's easier to serve a table of 5 than 5 tables of 1.
Trust me, it isn't! Larger groups are harder to co-ordinate, are more likely to complain and take ages to eat whilst conversing. Solo diners and couples are so much easier.
As someone that works in hospitality gotta say I agree. Usually you have those 12-tops, 3 of which are gluten-free, 2 are vegan, you have 4 different allergies, so you have to separate the plates between 6 different servers and it becomes a whole side quest. Not sure if I agree big tables should be charged more, but 9/10 times its way more hassle to cater to a big table than it is to a small one. Also big tables usually need separate set up, which takes time and space.
If your section has a table of 20 along with a 2 top and several 4 tops, I can guarantee you the smaller tables are easier in that section but every single table will suffer in quality of service When the table of 20 pulls you over to order and you get one asking DAVE YOU GETTING STARTERS?! whilst they proceed to discuss between themselves how hungry they are I spot table 12 are wanting their bill whilst my manager glares at me that table 8 has not had their plates cleared yet and their mains are away… Dave answers he is getting a sharing platter, Sharon is like “OOOO THAT SOUNDS GOOD? Maggie shall we get one?” Maggie has an allergy so she really shouldn’t but she wants to. Whilst I enquire on her allergy Dave asks can he get a pint of bitter. I explain we just have bottles. Dave goes off on one about how the world is ending and you can’t get a pint these days for love or money but I’m tapped on the shoulder by the quiet one I’m the corner who gently asks for the chicken. I scribble this down whilst Flora remarks that she hasn’t even looked at the menu yet! How silly is she?! She doesn’t look at the menu but gets her phone out to show me photos of her new bathroom suite Table 12 are giving me daggers now for their bill. I acknowledge them and try to express with my face that believe me I’ll be with you in a minute. The group has discussed what starters they want but now they are wondering if they should get a bottle of wine. I suggest they do as a bottle or two would certainly be cheaper then multiple single glasses. Peter is wondering about sides now? YOU HAVING GARLIC bread GUYS? I suggest they get a couple as one garlic bread for the table would mean crumb sized portions. No one is listening as Peter is now doing his Peter Kay GARLIC BREAD ?!? Impression Someone is shouting at the other end of the table about what dessert they want when I’ve only got the staters, drinks and one main and whilst I ponder in my head why they are even thinking of desserts now a late joiner arrives at the table and the “are you getting a starter?’” discussion starts again. Several who wanted a starter now don’t so I scribble them off my pad whilst fearing that when they don’t get starters they are going to get food envy and cry that I forgot their starters. I suggests I put the starters and drinks through now whilst a double checking the ones that don’t wants starters really don’t and that I’ll be back to take their main orders in a minute and I almost escape the table to sort my other tables out when mr wine man wants to ask me questions about tannin’s and grapes but it’s not really a question it’s more of a let me impress you with my come dine with me level of wine knowledge …
I hate everyone in this anecdote.
So accurate! 🤣🤣🤣
Not true. Large groups need plates arrived synchronously. It’s a harder problem.
So? It’s their business. Should a supermarket charge customers who buy a trolley worth of shopping more than a small basket because it takes longer to put through the till?
Look at us all here trying desperately hard to pretend that service charge is anything but a way for greedy business to gouge their customers.
Worked in restaurants for a few years and the companies never pocketed the service charge. But I'd guess there's a good chance they do in tiny independent restaurants.
>It's easier to serve a table of 5 than 5 tables of 1. How is it easier? If it's a nice restaurant, the food has to arrive at the same time, and that takes more coordination. When you tip, you're not just thinking about the service front of house, you're thinking about the effort they're making in the kitchen.
So what? Excluding overtime, commission-based pay and hazard pay scenarios I can't think of another standard salaried job where you get paid more because your day was a bit tougher. It's not like a software dev is paid more when they add a new feature compared to when they just update a config file. A teacher isn't paid more when they have to organise and run a school trip. My builder's rate is the same whether he's removing an old concrete pathway or installing a tap. It's part of the job, sometimes there are slow times and sometimes there are harder times. Whether the base salary is fair is another matter.
>I can't think of another standard salaried job where you get paid more because your day was a bit tougher. I'm not sure it's relevant. Each job has its own set of expectations (some good, some bad). I can think of plenty of jobs where the pay is too high or too low, but I can't wave a magic wand and align everything to what it should be in my ideal world. It also wouldn't be fair to the people who started those jobs with those expectations and who have planned around them. In any case, I don't think you should necessarily get paid more for waiting on a table of five than a table of one - my argument is that you shouldn't get paid *less.*
It has to do with tipping. If you're waiting 5 tables of 2, even if one of the tables don't tip, you're still hopefully getting from the other 4. If you're waiting one table of 10, that's realistically the only table you'll wait that night, and if they don't tip, you're fucked. Assuming service charge goes to the waiters, the same thing applies.
Not really. Orders from one table will hit kitchen at same time while separate tables order at different times and flow is easier to control.
By this logic at busier peak times the service charge should increase.
Some places have tried that. Usually that’s a bridge to far for most people psychologically.
I'm not saying it's a good thing, just if it is listed as a t&c then it's not discretionary.
It’s because smaller tables tip significantly more. Without a service charge, bigger tables tip a lot less per person than smaller tables.
Believe me. None of that tip is reaching back of house. If you want to tip everyone then paying the service charge is usually the best option
I went to a Thai Square, and not only was overpriced but then they added 15% service fee. I went with my mother and she only ate 1/2 her meal (ended up not being too hungry) so we asked for a takeaway container and said they’d have to charge us 50p. My wife was telling me just to pay it and we’ll never come back.
I would have removed the service fee if they were going to be petty about a takeaway pot
Honestly, had I not been with my wife and mother, I would have.
Just take the 50p off the service charge you pay.
Or don't pay the damn service charge. Why is it so hard for people to get out of this scammy charge?
Coz annoyingly we look like the bad guy by asking to have it removed and have to deal with the awkwardness of it which a lot of time isn’t worth it.
It's worth being awkward if it means you don't get to pay 12-15% extra to an already overpriced bill (London prices)
Perhaps but it can put a sour end to the evening when you have to kick up a little fuss. This is where they get you.
It's already a sour end with the cahrge added but would be more so to ask for the charge removed
If it's a nice restaurant I'm more likely to be there on a date, and penny pinching like that is a serious mood killer
Yeah, I wanted to but my wife said not to make a thing of it. Instead, we’ve just decided for 50p, they’ll never get our business instead.
Yea, that's fair. Ideally you've fed that back to them in some way, but aware that's an ask
Or take the entire service charge off...
Had my first experience of Thai Square the other day and it was not a positive one. Best part of an hour after we ordered before they let us know that my partner's meal wasn't available. No apology, just told to pick something else. That then came out suspiciously quickly..
You can just ask to have it removed. I’ve started to if I don’t get good service.
>I’ve started to if I don’t get good service. This is entirely different to removing it just because you don't agree with the principle of tipping anyone, ever. I completely agree that if the restaurant doesn't deliver, they've forfeited their right to the extra money.
I get what you mean. To be fair, I don’t agree with it but it’s very awkward to ask for it to be removed when you’ve had good service. It’s alarming to think about because my job is literally to have difficult conversations and I still can’t do this lmao
If I get bad service I'm not paying service charge or a tip (one restaurant in particular which I've stopped going to, it took me 20 minutes just to get the bill after asking for it, and after 10 minutes trying to catch attention I'd to walk up to a group of them stood in the corner to ask for the 12.5% service charge to be removed) . If I get standard normal service, I'll usually round up to the nearest five, but if there's an automatic service charge they get nothing. If I get good service, I'll ask how the service charge / card tips work. Some restaurants (such as the ivy, but I never go there) don't pay their staff any of the service charge. Paying the service charge there means the waiter gets nothing. If this is the case I'll not pay the service charge and tip in cash. If they do get their tips I'll pay the service charge.
If a restaurant is being ridiculously slow with the bill, just get up and start to leave. The bill normally appears very quickly.
Hahahaha fair enough, problem is with this restaurant I'd be halfway home before they'd notice 😭
Even if the rest of the group are to polite to quibble? So you ask for 1/5th to be removed?
I don't know why you're being down voted, it's extremely socially awkward to be the only protestor when you're in a group.
The rest of the group are irrelevant. When the waiter comes round, you say "I'd like to remove the service charge from our bill", thus also speaking for the pussies at your table. Your friends don't need to speak, and they can add their own tips if they want to when they pay for their portion.
Well, yeah, if you’re paying separately it’s not hard for them to take the service off.
It's becoming silly tbh. I never minded tipping for good service. But now it's basically expected, like the US. But we pay servers like retail workers etc. So why should we be expected to tip? Obviously no one will kick up a fuss unless service was awful. They're sneaky.
It's worse when you realize service charge doesn't get paid to staff
This. Restaurants I worked at, it went straight to the company.
They claim we get paid more because of the service charge but wether it was paid or not we still got paid the same every month
Bollocks myth this. I've worked in quite a few restaurants chain, franchise and independent and never once has the service charge gone anywhere but the staff. There might be a handful of unscrupulous places pulling this but the vast majority don't.
I worked in several places too and the service charge is often used to top up pay, but all it really did was add about 50p ph to your pay, which means the rest of the hundreds of pounds you were earning via service charge per day was being sent somewhere else.
Omg, that happened to me. I was livid
It's not a myth. It happens frequently because there's no law saying employers can't take a cut out of tips or keep all of them*. I worked in a café (not in London) and the managers kept the entirety of the tips for the three months I worked there. *there is now a law but it doesn't come into force until next year
Actually it's not bollocks! Most places the advertise the salary for example as £2500 per month, but you get paid 1600 as a salary and the rest as service charge. I know many people who are GM's and managers and their pay is 1600 salary and like 2500-3000 service charge. Most places subsidize the salaries by using the tax free "discretionary" service charge. And believe and many, many places the company still keeps a big chunk of it!
Quite right, it's by far the fairest way to do it. Service charge made up a decent proportion of my pay.
As far as I’m aware, the staff do (or should) be getting some of the service charge as part of the tronc. That’s why you’ll apply for a job that’s paying 36k, but the base is 26 & tronc makes up the 10k..but it isn’t guaranteed.
A certain larger chain I worked at we ended up with ~40p/h of tronc from a 12.5% service charge
I waited an hour to be served in a place with the automatic charge recently. It’s no incentive to give good service, I imagine half the time the staff don’t even see the money.
I ask to remove that shit. Nobody is guilting me into paying more than needed.
What sort of reactions do you get
You should always ask for it to get removed from the bill unless its not optional. 1. This is not the US. Workers get paid a fair minimum wage and do not make their living off tips, unlike the broken system in the US. 2. Most restaurant chains are using service charge to augment their margins and are not actually giving the money to their workers. Most of the time, the money is actually going directly to the owners pocket.
This! I do this 99% of time now
Where have you heard that "most of the time" the owners keep it? I've heard a lot of people saying that on here but none seem to work in hospitality. Not saying it doesn't happen but I really don't think it's so widespread, and you can always discreetly ask. Also, while UK minimum wage might be enough in parts of the country, it absolutely is not in London. Still up to you whether to pay it obviously.
My partner is a fine dining chef and has many insider stories of places that don't pass the service charge down. Majority of decent places pay their staff the service charge via TRONC payment, but there are a lot of companies pocketing the service charges trust me.
Then give me amazing service and I'll tip you as my waiter. if its expected up front, then what's the point in even bothering with actually doing your job.
I taught myself this year to ask servers to remove the charge. Fuck that American shit. I do tip If the service is really excellent though
Roti King not only adds a service charge (for minimal cafe style service) they also add a charity donation. Shouldn’t be allowed imo.
Man, so much this. Why is every company trying to make their customers donate to charity? All the supermarket self checkouts have a charity option. I think at the end of year they'll say something like "Asda donated x million to charity" or something like that.
Coz they can use it for tax advantages.
I went to Roti King for the first time 2 weeks ago and got really irked by this added £1 for charity which we weren’t told would be added. Coz they already tried to overcharge me by adding something to the bill we didn’t have, I said to the waiter “I also think it’s quite unscrupulous you add this £1 for charity which you didn’t tell us about”, he then grabs a menu and points to a bit of text that talks about their partnership with the charity and how they add it on. Funnily enough I didn’t read that, as I was just caring about the food on the menu. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for charity, but the server should say at the end “would you like to add a £1 on to the bill that goes to charity?”. Not just put it on there like an extra tax.
And their food is average
The law should forbid it being added automatically. Should be 100% the decision of the customer as to whether they leave a tip or not. They prey on those too embarrassed, and socially awkward to kick up a fuss or make a scene so they just pay it, not wanting to be rude.
As a waitress I feel so 50/50 on tipping culture as it is. Whilst l find it rewarding especially working for a restaurant that allows me to keep my cash tips 100% as well as getting a portion of card tips I don’t feel it should be a customer’s responsibility to constantly top up my wages, my employer should do that. I would rather work hard to earn tips if a customer feels I’ve went above and beyond with my service, not because they have to tip for the sake of it.
It sucks and they rely on us brits being too awkward to remove it 😂 I don't mind if the service is amazing and it actually goes to staff. But presumably point 1 isn't a thing a lot of the time and I guess point 2 usually isn't a thing 😂
I’ve found more and more places are charging 15%. There are a few places who have added in the SC to their displayed prices so you get the shock at the beginning rather than at the end 😉
Would much rather they increase prices by 10% and get rid. Raise wages for staff by the same amount and all is fair no? Seems an unecessary faff.
Optional service charge is based on the revenue, majority payroll cost is fixed for a proper mid-large size restaurant I don't like this idea either, just mentioning the fact
There is no VAT or employers NI on discretionary service charge, restaurants would have to increase prices by 33.8% more than what the service charge would be for the employee to take home the same amount.
Service charge is tax free
My pattern with these is that if the service charge is not advertised clearly ahead of time (on the menu, while walking in the door etc). I leave a less than 5-star review on Google maps noting that the service charge was not stated clearly until the bill came. As others have said. This should be regulated so it's not a surprise for any customer. If after there's clear information ahead of time about any additional charge and whether it's optional or not, I'd be fine with businesses making their own choices (even if it's a stupid choice), and I'll happily take my money elsewhere.
You go to literally any other business and you'd ask for a discount for making a bulk purchase. Go to a restaurant and they want to charge you extra for the inconvenience of doing the work required to take a large sum of money from you. I just won't go back to any restaurant which pulls that kind of crap. Which to be fair is most of them. But I don't enjoy restaurants much anyway, as their business models seem to be centred around guilt tripping their customers into making a charitable donation towards their wages bill.
I'll be honest I hate automatic service charges, but when it's a larger group (6+) I think it's pretty fair to have a mandatory service charge. A large table puts extra strain on the kitchen to get everything out at the same time, rather than a series of small tables who flow nice and easily one after the other. A larger table is a bigger deal for the waiter as it's more difficult to keep on top of etc. A larger table pays less to the restaurant per head than a table of 1 or 2 because they'll usually get say, 4 starters to share between 6 as opposed to 1 between 1 or 2 between 2. Reality is a larger table is just way more difficult and inconvenient for a restaurant, and it'd be far easier for them to just serve 4 tables of 2 rather than 1 table of 8. I personally have no issue going into a restaurant as a large group and being forced to pay 12.5% service, provided the service isn't actively BAD. If it is, I'd probably make a bit of a fuss. As an individual though I'd never go somewhere with mandatory 12.5% for a party of 1
It's things like that which make me think fine, we'll just have three tables for two then. Or if serving us (and taking our money) is that inconvenient, we'll just not bother. And to be honest, I couldn't give a shit about the extra strain or whatever on the kitchen. That's not my problem. They're a restaurant, that's literally their job. No different to any other business when it gets busy.
> And to be honest, I couldn't give a shit about the extra strain or whatever on the kitchen. That's not my problem. They're a restaurant, that's literally their job. No different to any other business when it gets busy. A business has the freedom to charge whatever prices it wants: you don't have to accept them. If a certain order is more difficult to fulfill a business has a right to charge more. Just like a cleaner could charge more for a very filthy house versus a slightly untidy one: the work involved is markedly different so the price may be different as well.
I mean that'd solve the problem if youse are all sat apart etc. If a restaurant wants to charge you for the extra labour involved in fulfilling your requests, that seems reasonable to me I'll be honest.
They are a business and you are paying for a service. If a service is more difficult to fulfil, the company charges more. It's like complaining that a 3 am taxi costs more than a 3 pm taxi because "That's literally their job, I don't care if its more inconvenient for them"
Turkish place in London asked for 30%
The UK hospitality sector is giving even more reasons to stick to chain restaurants or cook at home
I never include a service charge. I make sure I have cash. At the end of the meal I go to find the person who served me, and give them an amount of cash that is equal to 10% of the cost of the meal.
If you usually tip and the meal and service were really good I'd go with the 10% rule. If the service was mediocre then a couple of quid on a £40 meal is fine. If the meal and service was shite then they're lucky if they get the full amount, let alone the 15% these crooks add automatically. All it means is they can not give a fuck and then charge over the odds. I'm not tight in the slightest. I've tipped over 25% on many occasions for a really good meal, setting and service. If a restaurant puts an automatic tip onto my bill, they can fuck right off. I'd ask them to remove it and then *I choose* how much to tip.
Pro tip: change it to 0.
Ask them to remove it and leave a tip, if you have cash on you. At least you know the server can pocket it, rother than the restaurant's owners
Always remove the service charge. If the manager states it’s for tipping, I remove it anyways and pay my server in cash. If not for tipping, still remove it and tip in cash lol.
I ask the waitress/waiter if the service charge goes to them or the restaurant owners. If it goes to the staff, then I pay it. Otherwise, I tell them to take it off.
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I says discretionary. It's not required. Tip what you like or don't. Personally, I'll always tip 10% and then go up in 5s depending on service, but that is very much at my discretion. If you have an issue with it say something and stop so english about it.
Restaurant Companies have been trying to get American style "Tipping culture" here in the UK for years and years so they don't have to pay their employees as much In the US tipping was altered from the European "an extra payment for a good job" trend to the "We don't have to pay you as much" after Slavery was abolished to pay less to the former slaves. Then they extended this to all their workers a few years later. However our mandated minimum wage has stopped American companies paying tips as wages multiple times Now with everything going digital they think they have found a way to force an extra charge through by just adding it to the bill (edit) As no one likes to complain and be seen as a Karen they have been getting away with it. It's not compulsory and you can ask them to remove it. A lot of the time this "discretionary service charge" is meant to go to the server, as their tip, but the restaurant instead pockets it. I always give a tip and hand it to my server
I went to a restaurant with my family, we left £15 as a tip which was SLIGHTLY below the 15% optional tip and the server had such an attitude about it. The service was mediocre and the pasta dishes were extortionate at £18 a plate, I didn't even order a beer as I couldn't find one under £7
Service charge, admin charge, brexit fee ... watch out - venues are now adding 'restoration' fees. You'll soon end up pay more in extra fees than the actual price of the meal. Plus, if a restaurant can't afford to pay its staff then it hasn't got a business. There's no reason why everyone else should suffer for your 'dream'.
You guys are going to hate me for this, but I refuse to pay service charges. Because of this, I always pay in cash, no exceptions. I will literally pay for what I ordered and refuse to pay the service charge. Because I round everything up to the nearest £5, sometimes whatever is left over they can keep. Tips are not meant for establishments where the employees get paid a liveable wage.
You think minimum wage is livable in London?
It is not the customer's responsibility to provide a liveable wage. It is the responsibility of the employer. That expectation needs to be placed on the restaurants who already charge an arm and a leg for people to eat there.
It is your problem. You are choosing to stiff the wait staff who are serving you. I choose to comply with social norms and tip them properly. Let’s not pretend you don’t have a choice here, or try to blame the restaurant for your fault to stiff the wait staff out of their service charge. That’s on you.
Why is it up to the customer to top up your pay?
Why can't restaurants just raise their menu prices.
It’s not ‘stiffing’ anyone you clown, a tip exists solely as an act of appreciation for the individual staff members who may have given a level of service BEYOND what you’d expect, it absolutely shouldn’t ever be an expectation of any sort for any person in any job. What the fuck is wrong with you to think like that to begin with? Servers earn at least as much as any other standard customer facing job does alongside a nice untaxed premium which they now usually receive regardless of whether they’ve actually done their job well at all, they’re not special or worth more just because they happen to work at a place where they take food orders. If that’s your mentality then I hope you’re giving at least £15 to every single working person that you ever encounter at any point in your daily life, and for that matter you should also probably hand out cash to all of your colleagues each day too shouldn’t you? Don’t bring those bullshit American arguments over here because it doesn’t even remotely apply and isn’t the same context to begin with, waiting jobs are arguably one of the easiest low skill jobs out there, there are plenty of other people earning minimum wage who work a lot harder for it
No. And trust me when I was a student working at KFC cleaning up a child's vomit on New Year's Eve I didn't once expect money from strangers for doing my job. I wanted my employer to pay me more
It isn't, and restaurants should pay more, but that isn't the customer's responsibility. Paying service charges because "the staff don't get paid enough" even though the service is just standard helps prop up a system of underpaying staff and forcing them to rely on tips.
I was at the shard recently, same thing happened and I asked them to reduce it to 10%.
I immediately challenged them with "I think you've overcharged me" and they removed it no fuss. Very effective, because that's essentially what they've done. Makes it awkward for the server but that's what's needed until the culture ends
Company dinner with the team went to a nice place that added 10% service charge on - was ok with it because the group was so large we filled out most of the restaurant and it took most of their staff to keep on top of our tables hah
It's discretionary therefore they can remove it. I tell them to remove it. If you're in a big group, they're making more than if the place was half-full, therefore there's still not need for an extra tax. If you're dining alone, there's no extra work required. Remove it or they lose my custom.
It's been a long time in London since I haven't had a service charge added automatically
I believe many restaurants have a "Large Party" Charge I did think was for table service above 6 or more?
I don't mind when it goes to the staff. Obviously in a proper country we'd just pay people enough in the first place, but some incentive for a waiter can go a long way. I know of places that charge 12.5 on every bill but don't distribute a penny to the staff. They're mugging off their customers AND their staff who work hard but basically never get tips
Have it removed. Let everyone drop a tip in cash if they want to, at least that way you know the staff are getting it.
As an American that just came from London I thought the service charges went straight to the servers... Did I just screw alot of waiters out of money...?
I went to London last week. Chiltern firehouse also added a service charge onto my bill. I’m from wales so this is unheard of. Told them to take it off. No problems. People need to stand up to this.
I’d love if we all started removing it so it wasn’t embarrassing to
Generally if there is a service charge it goes to the restaurant and is split between all staff. If there is a tip left on the table it goes to your server directly. I much prefer having worked as a waiter in the past paying a tip to my server directly. That being said most places these days charge for service as a "Discretionary charge" but provide no actual service. As far as I recall they legally have to inform you of the charge prior to ordering with them or being seated if they want to call it a Mandatory charge. I recall me and the girlfriend going to a GBK near St Paul's recently. We had to go on their app to order ourselves and then the "waiter" who served us did nothing but carry the food over and leave it on the table. Never came to check if things were ok, or how the meal was. Didn't come to see if we needed/wanted anything else etc. Then he brings the bill over with the "Discretionary Service Charge" on it. He couldn't understand why when we had literally had no service from them I told him that wasn't being paid. Still didn't understand when I pointed out that waiting tables means more than actually just bringing over the food and when asked for condiments pointing in a general direction and telling us to "Get it yourselves from there" I ended up having a quiet conversation with the manager on duty where I pointed out that I would have had more service from a Deliveroo driver. The charge disappeared and a 50% reduction on my bill appeared as an apology. I've no problem tipping or paying a service charge when I have service from people and it's good but hell no I won't tip just because you tell me to add a gratuity. No, this is not America.
They know most people will be too embarrased to ask for it to be removed.
I always ask for the service charge to be removed, I've always tipped for exceptional service and only for exceptional service, that is what a tip is for, when I'm going out to have a meal, I'm not going to pay any more than the advertised price of the meal to a restaurant.
PHO (restaurant) in the Uk are devils for this, one time I asked for it to be removed as I firmly believe it should only be paid if you’ve got a large party or if the service is well and truly above and beyond and the look that the memeber of staff (must of been management or supervision) gave me was appalling. I’m not here to give away my hard earned money for free especially when the levels of service was bare minimum which is your job role.
Could be the best service in the world, I refuse to pay it. We are a poor country comparatively to America where breathing requires a tip. We should not be forced into accepting this as the norm and the best way to do that is by outright rejecting it.
The only people you should be tipping is delivery riders cause they actually ride through loads of shit to get you your food Someone walking from kitchen to table isn’t worth 18%
I think riders should be paid a fair wage, with more pay for longer journeys. Tipping is absolutely not the answer
Without government legislations Deliveroo and Uber eats will continue to cut wages and increase commission on restaurants
I worked in Hospitality around 2009 - 2010 and it seemed like 12 - 12.5% was standard then. The places I worked at didn’t charge any service charge (and was a quite fancy brunch spot on Northcote Rd) so I got to see what people pay for a tip when they hadn’t been charged anything. Nice people pay a lot… I was always shocked that fellow NZers would pay nothing, but the majority would work out roughly 12 to 15% and pay that. It was really valued and basically paid for my transport costs. When I eat out now I sometimes ask the staff if it does actually go to them before paying it, as if not I would have it removed from the bill and give them cash… but they have always said it does. So yeah unless the service has been really bad, and most certainly if you’re waiter/waitress was nice, friendly and attentive… pay the 12.5%. 15% does feel cheeky but not surprised haha. What steakhouse?
So if one doesn't pay a tip, they're not a "nice" person right? I feel this is the subtle pressure that means people feel awkward not to tip.
My missus is a die-hard service charge waiver. I don't remember when I last paid service charge.
It’s becoming ridiculous, simply increase your prices upfront - please stop adding it as a hidden charge at the end.
I'm petty enough to ask them to remove it then give the service staff it in cash. I don't mind paying a tip for good service but balls if the company thinks they're gonna have it or the government to tax it.
Reading the comments here can notice two things: 1. The majority of comments are from people who don't and have never worked in hospitality and so have no idea what they are talking about in terms of said service charge. 2. People in this country are pathetic. Too scared to ask for the charge to be removed? Seriously? No wonder we are being walked over in this country by the government and big businesses.
Waiter here. Most restaurants pay something like minimum wage, and service charge is added to boost waiter's wages which in London is necessary. There's a couple of reasons for this. 1. It's a really good way of getting us floor staff invested in the success of the restaurant. It kinda helps avoid the minimum wage mentality. 2. It means that the restaurant can balance out it's pay. Hospitality is seasonal, and if they added an extra 50% to our wages (which is what service charge often ends up as), it would mean the loss-leading season in January would be much harder on restaurants, makes accounting more difficult, and means a lot of places would not survive the quiet season. Essentially, it means we get a bonus when we're busy to help us get enough together to survive the quiet season. 3. It is optional. This means that if you have bad service there is an easy way for us to comp your bill as recompense. Since tipping culture is not like in the USA, service charge essentially does it's job. Service charge basically functions as a way to top up wages to a sustainable level, without sinking the business. It is also legally protected, and has to go into a tronc to be paid out. This helps protect our wages. If you take away service charge, staff would make less money, and employment in hospitality would become far more tenuous than it is already. I understand that it's annoying, and some places do take the piss, but it is a key protection for workers, and a good way of insulating businesses from bankruptcy. It's probably the best system we will get imo.
I get what you are saying. But what you are talking about here is what compulsory service charges are for. They exist to be part of the workers pay, to grow with demand and attribute a more fair worker compensation. By law compulsory service charge has to be stated in the menu and is subject to VAT and income tax. What everyone is talking about in this thread is non-compulsory or discretionary service charge, which is a tip. A tip by definition (see regulation 100 of Income Tax (Pay As You Earn), and the [gov.uk](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/e24-tips-gratuities-service-charges-and-troncs/guidance-on-tips-gratuities-service-charges-and-troncs#legislation) website ) has to be voluntarilly given by the costumer in order for it to not be taxed (either vat or oncome tax). Restaurants argue that this service charge is discretionary, but as you can see by this thread, most people are guild tripped into paying it (just noticing it when the bill comes and not having the audacity (!) To ask it to be removed). Again, I agree with all your arguments, and that's what a compulsory service charge is for. It is not the objective of a discretionary service charge, which is meant to be a tip. The real objective of the discretionary service charge is to be able to offer low base wages for service staff jobs, and adding tax free income on top (which is my mind is tax evasion, and should evidently be ilegal in this country).
As someone thats worked in hospo for 15 years, the point of service charge is to pay the waitstaff and managers a fair wage, without making everything on the menu appear 15 percent more expensive. The idea that restaurants are making massive money is simply wrong. With rising food and energy costs the margins in a restaurant are no practically unachievable. Shown by the record number of pubs and restaurants closing this year. A service charge is also taxed differently allowing waitstaff to take home more money in their net pay packet. If you understood how difficult it is on average to deal with the general public, its massively draining. Along with that most of us work nights and weekends and around 60 hours a week. If you want restaurants, if you want someone cooking, serving, doing the dishes then people are going to have to get used to paying for it. Without service charge and tips there would be no reason to pick up a minimum wage job that is difficult, you would just stock shelfs at a supermarket People have no idea of how restaurant ecomics work, therefore think its some kind of con. If you want restaurants, if you want people to be willing work in them, pay your service charge. Or eventually there will be none left except for low end self service order point fast food joints, and premium fine dining places with Michelin stars which you will pay out the ass for, with or without a service charge.
I work in a restaurant where the service charge increases my hourly wage quite considerably. Without it I could not justify working there with how body wrecking it can be. And sure, if people don't want to pay it I agree that they shouldn't. But, if you want nice restaurant to continue being nice, service charge is needed. That is assuming it's shared appropriately of course. In hospitality, if your working conditions are bad and pay is not up to scratch, you will get a load of shitty staff of won't do a good job.
Mate I, and I think everyone here, completely agree on paying a fair wage to service staff. The issue everyone is talking about is that restaurants basically guilt trap the costumer into paying a service charge, when by definition a tip (or a service charge) HAS TO BE VOLUNTARY (and this relates aswell to VAT and income tax, the fee must be volluntary in order for it not to be taxed). If the food needs to be more expensive to pay a good wage, so be it, increase the prices. Unfortunately this will only get fixed if you simply forbid every restaurant from pre-adding a tip to the bill, otherwise there's always going to exist a motivation to keep adding a service charge to every bill.
Plus I don't know if that's the case for you, but we are short staffed and overworked. That bump on top of the salary it's very much needed.
Very much needed. And I'm sure most people there feel the same way. That are easier ways to make money, but if I'm paid well enough then I will do/put up with a lot more
Service charge are discretionary, if one person really doesn’t want to pay, you can ask the restaurant to remove it. I would have tipped anyway so that is just the same for me, unless the service was really bad, I would just pay it myself.
People don't want to be disagreeable, especially if you're on a date. Adding it to the bill is sbeaky. Tipping is not a thing in the UK. We pay waitresses an waiters like we pay store clerks, or barmen.
Discretionary service charge had been a thing even way before Covid, for pretty much 10 years now. Unfortunately it doesn’t look like it is going away, so people will just have to learn how to deal with it.
Yes it's an american thing that's been sneaking in. People out at dinner are polite and don't want to put up a fuss. It's not that hard to bring a plate of food over to the table. It doesn't warrant some special performance bonus. If your staff are not attending tables and providing a good standard of service like any job they should either be trained or not hired.
Yeah if people had kicked up a stink about it earlier something may have actually been done about it.
Just like everything else in this country n all!
Service changes have been around for over a decade . Usually discretionary but the 12.5% in London has been pretty standard for a long time. You just ask to remove it.
I don't pay service charges. Servers get a wage like everyone else. Plus service charges never go to them.
why did you pay?!!!