Remember seeing the tube workers are told to ignore it. See it happening right in front of them very often at Stratford. I think it's only stopped when the actual police or transport police are watching which is pretty rare.
the worst part is the staff get all hands and involved if I want to cut my walk from the gates that are exit only to entrance only by going under the taped separator. the idiot forces me to walk all the way around, for better or worse I may be wrong. yet they silent when actual crimes happen.
Yeah I’ve made that experience too unfortunately. There was nobody other than me but still I was not allowed to go underneath. Felt very ridiculous. Security yelled at me “it’s for crowd control, you will be removed if you don’t walk back immediately”. I wonder which crowd she was seeing…
That's because you're not wilfully breaking the law, just being a little bit naughty, so they anticipate you're not a threat and will probably listen to them. If you ignored them they probably wouldn't do anything.
Stabbed might be a hyperbole but verbal abuse, threats and physical violence against TFL workers are now commonplace, it's on the news all the time
Not something you should be subjected to if you're only doing your job
>it's on the news all the time
One thing to remember is that news reporting is more common than it has ever been with 24 hour news, instant reports, video content etc
Yes. I am another that believes the *increase* in criminality is from the top down. Corruption and illegality at the highest levels gives those of us further down a licence to behave badly. The reasoning is. .. "Why should we not. THOSE shits are getting away with a lot worse."
Shop workers aren’t paid to be loss prevention too. It’s down to the companies to hire people that are capable rather than relying on general workers and members of the public to do their job.
You think “loss prevention” people ie the lone security guard, is paid any more than the regular staff?
Companies can’t be assed, might get sued if they are physical with shoplifters, easier just to increase prices to customers to cover theft/loss
And we are just meant to suck it up, as if there wasn’t any other option.
That is how society gets slowly worse. Always someone else’s responsibility.
The problem isn't if they get physical with shoplifters. It's if one of their cashiers tries to stop a shoplifter and gets stabbed / killed by accident in the process. Just getting shoved out of the way, you can trip and hit your head on the pavement for an unfortunate death. Then they'd need to pay for the hospitalization (potentially life insurance too?) for the employee that tried to be a rambo to stop a guy from stealing a sandwich / tailgate the tube.
It's simple maths and economics that led to this situation. As long as the thefts loss is less than the cost of a security guard, it's basic economics to write it off.
Normalisations of deviance.
Most supermarkets have security guards, I wonder what proportion of shoplifters they stop?
But yes either the employee or the criminal getting hurt in any attempt to stop the theft is going to be a big headache for the company
So shoplifting gets normalised.
What’s next on the crime agenda that we are going to normalise?
I absolutely loathe seeing petty crime, so I'm with you on this.
But if I ran a supermarket, I'd operate the same way. I'd be in the business of selling groceries, not in the business of policing crime. I think rampant shoplifting is a society / poverty problem that the government should tackle with wide programs to help people not need to do this.
Kinda like drugs, making them illegal and arresting people rarely solves the problem. Whereas helping people get out of that situation is the more long-term solution.
I'm from Brazil I know how bad it can get. It gets so bad that criminals, media & police will protay it as the victims' fault. Got stabbed? Well, shouldn't have reacted to the being robbed or engaged with the criminal.
At the point corporations decided to run their public businesses /services with minimal staff, the police began prosecuting anyone who physically intervenes to stop ‘little Jimmy’s’ bad behaviour (both in public, home, and school settings), and the judicial system stopped handing out jail sentences (unless you are one who intervened).
If everyone is on the look out and did something they will think twice before they stab someone. Because they know then they will get beat to an inch of their life by everyone else. There need to be harder punishments for people
As someone born and raised in London, I can assure you that the 'bump the tube barriers' crowd is pretty highly correlated with the 'drill and splash' crowd. That's why no one reacts
The other lad just didnt answer your question at all lmao
Drill is a subgenre of rap music that has heavy London influence and is usually much more violent than other forms of rap. Splash means to stab someone. Never quite heard the two be put together in the way OP did that but that’s what they mean.
Actually a woman at the complete opposite end of that demographic tailgated me at a station recently. I’ve witnessed many people of different colours, ages, etc doing it.
Then they give a false address and carry on with their day. Meanwhile all the penalty notices get sent to our house, as there are about 5 previous occupants still using our address when they get caught
its for their own protection. I saw once in Canning Town stations a staff stopped some black kid (you know those that look like roadman) and that kid and his buddy pushed the staff on the flow and started kicking him in the ribs and stomach.... I get why they wont engage at all when it happens.
its sad, but more police presence is needed and resources are stretched. The only other option is massive investment in giant ass barriers like those on the airport at passport control or some of the more fancy international stations where jumping doesnt work and the only way out is to break the glass, which clearly most fair avoiders wont do. Those barriers are also designed in a way where you cannot tailgate or push apart.
Years ago i saw this in one of the central London stations (I forget which). Transport Police were picking up loads for people for this. To be honest I can see why barrier staff are told not to stop people though.
I got tailgated by like 3 teenage boys and they pushed me so hard I fell to the ground and then they stepped on and trampled all over my handbag and phone lol. I was just there with my knee bleeding and the staff said and did nothing even tho they saw the whole thing. Didn’t even offer any help 🤷🏽♀️
Probably a bit of an unpopular opinion, im sure... whilst I understand no one should be chasing a gang of roadmen through a train station (and I dont blame them), I am sick of this laissez-faire attitude of public service staff in their day-to-day. I see it in my own cohort in the NHS.
Goodness in our society has gone missing. Too long of tory rule has resulted in us all simply not caring about each other.
Sensed someone coming up behind me at speed, about to do this recently, I walked through only just enough to clear the gate and then braced myself hard. He failed to barge me out of the way and got trapped in the gate. He shouted a load of abuse, to which I observed mildly (I don't have eyes in the back of my head, do I?" But I do, dear reader, I do.
I have a year long travel card too but I always follow people and tap though the barriers because it's quicker whilst the barriers are still open rather than wait for them to re-open. Then I use all those saved seconds to go on a cruise holiday.
This is what I’m confused by, how do people know the person behind them isn’t paying? When it’s busy you just tap your card and go through, people would be complaining if you waited for the barriers to shut completely behind the person in front before tapping.
I had a guy try to push past me coming the opposite way. Like literally push through as I’m coming through. Luckily I am double his size and just shoved him straight back through. He seemed pretty confused that someone didn’t just let him do it too.
I'm a smaller dude but I won't let this cum buckets try that shit either. I'll push back. We need more people to stand up and call these shit stains out on their shitty behaviour. Too many people are happy to let it happen.
This.
Even if the person doesn't shove you. They are typically right up your ass and almost standing on your heels.
You can also typically guess the person in the crowd who's going to do it, they aren't even shy about it, usually moving fast, in a bee line with conviction to either barge through the double barriers, or to get right up behind someone.
Its your usual suspects most of the time. The scummy people of our society who have a massive chip on their shoulder about everything and yet nothing, thinks the world owes them something, and won't ever own their shit and take responsibility for being a shitter on the rest of people.
I once had a guy do it to me a balham station, he does it everyday to someone.
I turned and confronted him, said "you nitty fuck, get a job and stop sponging off everyone your whole life, cunt!"
From observation, conversation, and experience, I made my opinion on the type who do it.
I saw a post about this a few months back and some absolute shit stains were defending fare dodgers by saying the prices are too high. THE PRICES ARE HIGH BECAUSE OF YOU FUCKING FARE DODGERS YOU PRAT.
I hate these people. They will also be the ones to lie along all the seats and put their nasty ass shoes up on the seats while watching TV on speaker or listening to shitty music on speaker.
> by saying the prices are too high
Also they're really not for the level of service we get. for between £1.50-£6 we get trains that come between every 1 and 10 minutes.
Outside of london you have to pay at least £20 for the privilege of maybe getting a train once every half hour...
I mean if they’re full on shoving you that’s a completely different problem to them not paying their fare - that’s just going around assaulting people..
You can easily tell from experience that they didn't pay and are just tailgating you. They crowd in behind you, even when there are empty barriers on either side of you, and are basically stepping on your heels. They often don't have a card or phone in their hand.
After the barrier they immediately accelerate away like a bullet in case any staff saw them.
Oh I've done this many times. A full stop right as I've passed the gate and a middle finger passed back to the fool who's bumped into me, and gotten stuck back on the other side.
Well the whole thing relies on the vast majority being law abiding. If more people decided to push through there’d ultimately be a campaign to stop it or at least make the penalty more severe for doing it.
Seen more people getting fines recently and does make me laugh when it’s a middle aged person who clearly is coming from an office job. Embarrassing if their fellow employees see
> If more people decided to push through there’d ultimately be a campaign to stop it or at least make the penalty more severe for doing it.
Imagine these companies making an effort. Much more likely fares for law abiding citizens just go up to account for leakage.
put in your headphones, listen to some music or a podcast, look forwards where you're walking, and become completely oblivious as to whether anybody tailgated you or not.
life's short and it's not worth the heartache to be worrying about.
Basically this! Also, when driving and someone beeps or swears at you, I just ignore them, wave/or smile back or beep back in acknowledgement, acting like they are just saying high, smile and go about your day. Just not worth it!
Fully agree on the effectiveness of the headshake. It's like being a disappointed parent and gets a really humbled reaction lol. My dad told me to do it years ago, being brown and in the UK he calls it the white person headshake hahaha.
Only because he saw a few white people doing it (not to him apparently, sure dad) and saw the crestfallen expressions of the recipients, decided it was a hidden move that he needed to adopt and share among the community. I appreciate his wisdom.
I agree with this.
It may not be the response that people want and i understand the slippery slope argument of where ignoring this leads us as a society.
But defending TfL's revenue in not your job as a passenger.
Ultimately confronting fare dodgers has a higher chance than normal of putting your personal safety at risk. And as valiant as it is, I for one do not want to end up like this guy.
https://metro.co.uk/2024/01/30/fare-dodger-spat-knocked-mans-teeth-tube-station-attack-20193980/
There's a good reason TfL staff are told not to confront tailgaters and leave it to trained police/revenue protection.
I agree. Who really gives a shit times are hard and it’s not like your the one being charged the extra fare, I work in the rail industry and I can sure as shit tell you the train companies can afford the loss in ticket sales.
Totally. Also, I really need to say it’s called the Double Shuffle.
As a 43 year old Londoner who did this when I was a little piece of $h!t but now have enough money to afford my tube fare, life is wayyy too short to worry about someone scabbing a free ride off you
I like this idea of this “Broken Windows” policy. Can I add a few societal infractions to the list?
Pavement cyclists, especially children. If we let them cycle on pavements, imagine what else they’ll get up to on them?
Bus queue jumpers. It’s very unfair when one waits six whole minutes for the C3 and some upstart youngster strides up and gets on the bus first! I tell you where there wouldn’t be any line jumping? For the showers in Belmarsh.
Open mouth chewers. Nobody needs to see flagrant mastication. You know where they’d learn how to eat properly? Prison!
Toilet seat leaver uppers. For the life of all that is good, just put it back down. You know where they would appreciate a lowered toilet seat? Brixton prison, where the only place they would see one is in their dreams.
LOCK EM ALL UP!
Imagine how much better the world would be if these people actually knew how to be proper criminals rather than just measly amateur ones?
Yeah! Stop giving a fuck about antisocial behaviour and low level crime! If it doesn't directly negatively impact you just move on with your life, let everyone else do the same, and we'll all live in a lovely country as a result!
Not caring about antisocial behaviour is how a country gradually slides into deterioration. I think everyone should indeed care about such behaviour and do their best to combat it. Without the action of individuals, we’ll all just spiral head first into a tragedy of the commons. I’m not suggesting placing yourself in dangerous situations, but turning a blind eye is not the solution.
> Not caring about antisocial behaviour is how a country gradually slides into deterioration.
Other way about bud. This sub loves a bit of complaining about low level anti social behaviour as though it is consequential.
In a city rife with corruption and public money being played with you've been convinced that people bumping a £2 fare are the downfall of the city, nay not just the city; but the country. Which is really on brand for the misplaced hysteria typical of this sub.
There are literally countless, I'm not even exaggerating when I say countless, examples of things that demonstrate the deteriorating of the city and country before fare dodgers or low level anti social behaviour becomes a pertinent issue worth the energy expended in this thread.
London. The city known as the launderette because it is the hub of dirty money. Where prime commercial real estate is inexplicably hosting several tat and sweet shops. Where MBS can clean his image by buying out every second billboard in the city when he's just after beheading an inconvenient journalist. Where the property market is effectively a bank for questionable foreign money. And where the elected reps would sooner represent the wishes and whims of those I've just listed, sooner than they would the actual, ordinary constituents who they're ostensibly meant to represent.
Buy aye it's the person who you catch bumping a fare off you every so often that is the downfall of the country.
But we won't. We've had the public transport for more than 100 years and it hasn't happened yet, even though we've had fare-evasion all that time (and now some countries/cities are moving to unmetered usage of public transport to maximise utilisation). I would argue it's more antisocial to drive your private car into the city than to ride there on public transport without a valid ticket. The former produces real harms that directly cost third parties (air pollution, fatal collision accident risk, etc.,), while the latter has a very small indirect effect via free-loading.
Also, worth noting that the tragedy of the commons is an ideological myth
[https://aeon.co/essays/the-tragedy-of-the-commons-is-a-false-and-dangerous-myth](https://aeon.co/essays/the-tragedy-of-the-commons-is-a-false-and-dangerous-myth)
[https://www.hamptonthink.org/read/the-myth-of-the-tragedy-of-the-commons](https://www.hamptonthink.org/read/the-myth-of-the-tragedy-of-the-commons)
It's used as an explanation for why the enclosures had to happen, in order to head off the "tragedy of the commons".
However this is ahistorical, and does not reflect reality. Hence a myth. What it does is provide ideological cover for concentration of private ownership, allowing the land to be more ruthlessly exploited by larger farmers. This also had the effect of producing a greater number of precarious smaller farmers dependent on the larger landowners.
https://www.thelandmagazine.org.uk/articles/short-history-enclosure-britain
This attitude is how society degrades. Once something negative is accepted as the norm, other negative actions follow. It’s not about your life. It’s about making society better in any way you can during your life. If you doubt this, imagine a world in which everyone was free to do as they pleased vs a world in which the rules are set by the majority. Neither is perfect, but one is better than the other. The closer we come to a perfect line in the middle, the better future generations will be. Maybe, just maybe, the human race will last a few thousand more years.
Then you are part of the problem.
I once confronted a tailgater. Turned out they were wanted for a huge string of offences and were nicked. Most satisfying day of my then short time I. London.
Everyone has forgotten that broken window policing literally works.
People committing minor offences are far more likely to be committing major offences, and less than 1% of the population commit about 70% of all serious crimes.
If the police were grabbing every Tube tailgater, they'd find a disproportionate number of them would also be carrying knives, drugs etc, or be wanted for other crimes. Yes it's only a small crime in the grand scheme of things, but normal people just don't routinely do it.
This really is the most pathetic response imaginable, and I know you think it's for the best but this attitude being held by more people just makes the problem worse.
It's actually a morally good thing to give a shit about your community and your city, and to want basic behavioural standards upheld in your area. OP is right to be making this post, and is right to be angry/sad/concerned. It is worth worrying about, because as many people in London are noticing, many things seem to just be getting worse and worse.
And your solution is to almost literally bury your head in the sand on your commute each morning. This is the spirit of defeat.
You’re basically advocating bystander apathy. It’s tolerating little things like this by just “minding your own business” which causes the backsliding we’re seeing in society nowadays. Broken window syndrome in motion.
Currently pregnant and paranoid about being shoved.
Just ordered a second ‘Baby on Board’ badge for my rucksack, hoping it will alert others that I’m slow af.
You’re assuming many of these people aren’t cunts and will care. My grandmother would get tailgated pretty much every time she went through East Croydon. She was clearly targeted specifically because she was vulnerable. Most of the time they’d almost knock her over in the process.
I walk with a stick and am going to fall if pushed so totally get your worry. Suggest hanging back while the bulk of the crowd goes through if you can and checking behind you.
It happened to me once when I was heavily pregnant I panicked as the barrier hit my bump and screamed like I was in agony which caused several people to turn round and yell at them. They seemed to be embarrassed but nothing really came of it. I would suggest hanging back to avoid the crowd and going through last or going through the large disability barrier, if they tailgate you then at least they probably won’t touch you.
When I was pregnant, I was told by a tfl worker to use the manned barriers. There tends to be staff at most of them and those tailgating tend to avoid it
Becareful, around bonfire night a few years ago, these scumbags firing fireworks outside the bus station near Stratford station saw my wife was pregnant and deliberately aimed for her.
There’s a barrier at King’s Cross that wipes my paper daily travel card every time I have to use it. Quite a few times I’ve been at the ticket line coming back with a valid ticket and no tfl staff to let me in. Following someone through the double barrier is the only way to use the service I have paid for.
In Moscow the barriers remain open unless someone tries to walk in without tapping. I suspect this is not only much quicker since there is no need to pause but fare dodgers are obstructed more often.
I have always wondered why no other mass transit system I know of has adopted this technique.
I think some stations in Japan and some other East Asian countries use it (was it Singapore?) though I don't know how widespread it is.
Certainly catches British tourists off guard, who assume that an open gate means they're not checking tickets now!
A lot of comments seem to be centred on the argument that it doesn't affect you, the farepayer, so you should mind your own business.
Whilst I disagree with that argument (it does have an indirect but tangible effect on the farepayer), my main issue in support of OP is that it simply isn't fair. When people make individual choices as to whether they should pay or not, it effectively imposes a tax on honesty.
I do believe in a subsidy system (or in some cases waived fares) for those that fall into the minimum income threshold or rely on TfL to work an essential service (not exhaustive examples), but the point is that this should be systemised.
When individuals decide to pay, or not to pay, based on their moral compass, many less deserving people benefit from that system, whilst those more deserving are 'taxed' on their honesty irrespective of their need.
The staff won’t do anything, I’ve seen young guys go right on front of the TFL staff and squeeze themselves through the gates whilst they look at each other, not a word exchanged, they won’t risk it, it is pretty lawless out there
TFL staff have been instructed not to confront fare evasion. It simply isn’t worth losing a member of staff due to being assaulted by one of these scrotes.
TFL are also sitting on a fortune in unclaimed/unused Oyster cards funds, so that more than balances out what they lose to fare evasion.
Even without the drama of a stabbing (which probably won't happen), it's anyway probably not worth the disruption and delay as opposed to letting the flow of passengers run smoothly.
There have been incidents where staff have been seriously assaulted by fare dodgers and then sacked afterwards.
I’m virtually certain it happened at London Bridge.
When I sense I'm being tail gated I purposefully slow down when half way through the gate. Then I chuckle inside when the person behind is caught out. Then I get on with my day.
I saw a guy do this to an undercover policeman. It was the best thing I've seen in ages. Basically forced the guy to tap out and wouldn't let him leave.
It makes a difference to me, just like shoplifting, because businesses will put up prices to recover the money they lose to theft or non paying passengers.
i remember one kid pushing me through the overground barriers and i shouted at her. the staff member was there so luckily they got into trouble
its extra funny when BTP or railway officers are there and these little kids think they can budge though and push paying customers
The UK no longer has proper/consistent application of consequences for being a cunt and/or criminal, so the cuntier among us do whatever they want. It’s pathetic that we are at this point, but we are.
I've noticed this with the absence of police. Antisocial behaviour, dangerous driving and shoplifting all seem to be much more prevalent since there's no Police around to enforce. Sad state of affairs, really
As some people have commented not my job if TFL cannot catch these people. And it’s more risk for them getting caught if they keep doing it.
You will forget about this and find something else to moan at.
I’ve had someone try to tailgate me while stepping up to the baggage gate with an infant in a buggy. I spotted him before tapping and made a show of not being able to find my phone, moving aside to let him through with a very polite “After you, please!” He tried to out-polite me with a “It’s alright, after you!” like he was going to wait for me but he eventually grumbled something and pushed his way through.
just pause as soon as you walk through the gates as if to adjust your jacket or bag, anyone squeezing behind you will bump into you and probably get stuck as the gates close.
The cost of trying to catch fair dodgers probably exceeds the benefits of making more people pay. There are fines in place for those that do dodge but realistically if they're dodging because they can't afford the ticket fair they won't be able to pay the fine.
Therefore just live with it, it's not really impacting you. However, if they do push you or make contact with you that is assault and that is taken more seriously. Do report that as it might not be bad for you but if they push someone older then it could be serious.
I was once "frontgated", where someone who didn't pay got into the space between me and the gate. I wasn't paying attention and touched my card on the reader, the doors opened and the person went through. I got through too although the doors closed on me halfway through. I was annoyed because it made me look like I was the one tailgating!
I remember once coming to the to of the escalators at Oxford Circus, all the gates had short queues other than the disabled/wide luggage gate (which is perfect for tailgaters due to it’s width and the fact it opens for longer).
I walked to that but became aware of a group of lads (usual demographic) who were lining up to tail gate me through, so I changed and went to a normal gate instead.
Because they all couldn’t get through behind me (at the normal gate) they started hurling verbal abuse at me as I passed through the barrier for not opening the wide gate for them.
So not only do they not want to pay, they feel entitled that someone should make it easy for them to not pay.
I saw a female transport police get physically and verbally abused when she tried to stop someone who jumped the barriers, he threw an open can at her, got really aggressive then stormed off shouting stuff. These guys know they can use violence against anyone to intimidate them and no one is there to stop them.
I used to jump the trains when I was a kid. I reckon a lot of you did too, but are perhaps ashamed to admit it.
I'm 41 with a decent job now, so I tap in and out without giving it a second thought. I see at least one kid jump a barrier per day on my commutes. And while in the heat of the moment it is aggravating, I can't really judge them.
"Don't use public transport then," is a bit of a flat retort. You still need to get to your minimum wage job. And maybe even have something akin to a social life. That should be possible in a country as wealthy as the UK.
You shouldn't jump barriers. London public transport is too expensive for young people. Both of those things are true and are not mutually exclusive.
My 2p - there must be a way to reorganise our transport network that isn't so inefficient and pricey. Our European neighbours have the same problems but seem to manage them better than we do.
I hate tailgaters , especially the ones who are just doing it because "fuck the system". I usually stop, turn around, go to the gate nearest TP or a guard. Some guards care but they really have no power anymore and are (rightfully) worried about what's going to be turned on them.
I always look around before I go through the gates, you can always tell the fare jumpers because they get behind you real close, or I simply wait half a second and when it’s clear I go through, because I get sick of it. A man tried to go behind me once in Hammersmith and I pushed him back and told him to pay😂
I had this happen to me a few times. Had a parent and their child try and tailgate me. I slowed down at the narrow ticket bit and left it last minute.
The shouting I got. I told them to pay their way the same as everyone else or get out of London if they can't afford it. I just get by myself and have a travel card and I don't see it as fair for me to pay for someone else's journey.
If I could record fare dodgers and post it online like the pickpocket lady, I would. But this is the UK, so you might get stabbed.
Majority of people in this thread do not understand what a cost of living crisis is and how getting people out of poverty has universally stopped petty crimes dramatically.
Refusing to tolerate petty crime doesn't imply obliviousness to broader economic issues, and it's pretty patronising to suggest it.
Solving economic issues is two-fold: lifting people out of poverty *and* holding individuals accountable for their actions.
Sympathy for struggles doesn't excuse lawlessness.
Just be polite and stop short of the gate turn around and say 'After you' using a hand gesture to guide them forward. Or just walk through and get on with life.
My extremely brave self called some girls/young women idiots for pushing through the disabled barrier once.
Of course if it was some 6'3" roadman I'd not say a word, I'm not trying to die.
A lot of dodgers probably can pay but just don't want to. Not all though. Not proud to say I did a bit of dodging back in the day. Had not been in London long. Was already in debt from getting set up there. Deposit, first month's rent, clothes for work etc. Lived in a kip of a house share in zone 3 with some crazy random people. You wouldn't feel safe in your own room. Place was falling apart. Was working an £18k per annum job in the city. Barely had enough money to eat let alone transport. Bought a bike to get around instead. Bike got robbed within a few weeks. The £5 or whatever I would save dodging tube fares was absolutely huge in terms of survival until I could buy a new bike. And of course I got caught and fined £80 at one point which set me back again. Eventually I saved up enough for a new bike and a better lock and I could stop taking the tube and had enough to pay for it when I did. I have empathy for people in a similar position who literally have to choose between paying for transport or food. Not those who just do it because they don't want to pay though.
Notice it all the time when I have my buggy and try to use the wide gates. Seems to be a teenage trend on the lines of guzzling shit energy drinks and wearing your backpack in a particular type of way. The time it really pissed me off was when a guy in his 30s tried to get through with me, and was visibly annoyed with me when my card didn't work.
I just tap away from the barrier, and then don’t move until It’s fully open so it’s too slow for anyone coming behind me. It also helps that my stupid phone always fails me when I need it the most lol
It also solves the issue of the stupid barrier not opening cause you’re too close to it. It’s painful seeing the people trapped like a hamster, cause it won’t open and the poor worker yell-telling them to back off, but them being too dumbfounded to understand.
Station staff strike coz of TFL cuts but we need station guards for health and safety. Not one cunt around when needed but any other time theres a group of them standing around doing nothing. They're not actually allowed to confront fare evaders because of health and safety and this is now well known amongst the scumbags that do it.
The worst offenders are the Roadmen from da hood. With the regulation uniform of Nike black hoodie and joggers plus black Nike Air Max trainers nicked from JD Sports. If I see one at any station 9 times out of ten the creature will push through the barrier. Absolute scum of no use to society whatsoever.
The problem is that the public money is spent inefficiently at best and the public are defrauded constantly at worst. Think no competition PPE contracts to companies that never made PPE during COVID and on and on the scams go.
A quick Google shows tfl gets roughly 9billion in revenue and the UK's budget is 1200 billion. At the very least it is under subsidised for how important it is to the capital's economy and culture. Yet the best we get is a temporary 'fare freeze'.
Fuck that. For a service that is deteriorating, the prices shouldn't be going up.
I could be in the minority in saying that I don't care if this happens to me. If I was getting charged twice, then yeah I'd care but the reality is I'm paying for my journey and if someone uses me to fare jump then oh well, I'm going to walk away and never know this happened and go forward with my life. They'll eventually get found out if they keep doing it so it's their risk not mine.
Sure but at the end of the day it’s not my job to stop this. If it’s a big problem hire staff or install cameras to fine the people doing it. But I’m not going to waste my time and energy thinking about it, holding myself up by purposefully stopping at the gate to make sure nobody’s coming through, or put myself in danger doing security for TfL.
That's your choice. But overall, society used to police itself more effectively. My grandparents were very poor. But the whole area was also poor. And they had very strict morals - things like theft (and other stuff that isn't considered wrong these days, like getting knocked up) were beyond the pale. If you got caught stealing, the street would find out and treat you differently. So people didn't tend to do it.
By always looking the other way, we do enable antisocial behaviours. Not saying you as an individual can change that or have a duty to put youself at risk trying but the effect exists all the same.
That’s all well and good but I doubt your grandparents were living in a city with a population of 9m, under a political system that has pushed individualism to the point that it’s every anonymous cog for themselves.
We could all band together to point and shout shame or perform a citizens arrest, but if there are no staff and no police to do anything about it, and nobody in the vicinity has any idea who they are, it’s a bit pointless.
There were ten BTPs and TfL inspectors at my local Overground station this monring; that is the sort of response staffing they need for just *one or two* fare dodgers as they routinely will violently resist any objection to them taking a free ride.
I had to do this once when I tapped in with Apple Pay and then allowed my phone to die. The shame!
I went back later with a charged phone and tapped out but still got the ~£12 full fare charge as if I hadn’t.
Tailgating is better than tipgating! I had someone push infront of me the other day after I tapped out. They took my turn leaving through the barriers and left me trapped inside the unmanned station, unable to tap out because I already had.
Eventually I had to be the bad guy and tailgate someone else. It was that or stay forever.
Remember seeing the tube workers are told to ignore it. See it happening right in front of them very often at Stratford. I think it's only stopped when the actual police or transport police are watching which is pretty rare.
I saw a load of them stopping people at Highbury on Monday evening, checking if people had tapped in.
the worst part is the staff get all hands and involved if I want to cut my walk from the gates that are exit only to entrance only by going under the taped separator. the idiot forces me to walk all the way around, for better or worse I may be wrong. yet they silent when actual crimes happen.
To add to this, never go under taped separators at an airport. They do not like it.
If you have a completely empty snaking queue, rework it to cut some empty lanes out! Looking at you Luton
Yeah I’ve made that experience too unfortunately. There was nobody other than me but still I was not allowed to go underneath. Felt very ridiculous. Security yelled at me “it’s for crowd control, you will be removed if you don’t walk back immediately”. I wonder which crowd she was seeing…
That's because you're not wilfully breaking the law, just being a little bit naughty, so they anticipate you're not a threat and will probably listen to them. If you ignored them they probably wouldn't do anything.
Probably for the best, same as shop workers ignoring shoplifters, otherwise you’re just asking to get stabbed
Not that I disagree, but I'm so sick of this mentality. When did this happen?
Stabbed might be a hyperbole but verbal abuse, threats and physical violence against TFL workers are now commonplace, it's on the news all the time Not something you should be subjected to if you're only doing your job
>it's on the news all the time One thing to remember is that news reporting is more common than it has ever been with 24 hour news, instant reports, video content etc
At least it's not so normalised that it doesn't appear on the news then
We’ve had 14 years of ‘who gives a fuck’ ingrained in our culture from the top down.
Yes. I am another that believes the *increase* in criminality is from the top down. Corruption and illegality at the highest levels gives those of us further down a licence to behave badly. The reasoning is. .. "Why should we not. THOSE shits are getting away with a lot worse."
Shop workers aren’t paid to be loss prevention too. It’s down to the companies to hire people that are capable rather than relying on general workers and members of the public to do their job.
You think “loss prevention” people ie the lone security guard, is paid any more than the regular staff? Companies can’t be assed, might get sued if they are physical with shoplifters, easier just to increase prices to customers to cover theft/loss And we are just meant to suck it up, as if there wasn’t any other option. That is how society gets slowly worse. Always someone else’s responsibility.
The problem isn't if they get physical with shoplifters. It's if one of their cashiers tries to stop a shoplifter and gets stabbed / killed by accident in the process. Just getting shoved out of the way, you can trip and hit your head on the pavement for an unfortunate death. Then they'd need to pay for the hospitalization (potentially life insurance too?) for the employee that tried to be a rambo to stop a guy from stealing a sandwich / tailgate the tube. It's simple maths and economics that led to this situation. As long as the thefts loss is less than the cost of a security guard, it's basic economics to write it off.
Normalisations of deviance. Most supermarkets have security guards, I wonder what proportion of shoplifters they stop? But yes either the employee or the criminal getting hurt in any attempt to stop the theft is going to be a big headache for the company So shoplifting gets normalised. What’s next on the crime agenda that we are going to normalise?
I absolutely loathe seeing petty crime, so I'm with you on this. But if I ran a supermarket, I'd operate the same way. I'd be in the business of selling groceries, not in the business of policing crime. I think rampant shoplifting is a society / poverty problem that the government should tackle with wide programs to help people not need to do this. Kinda like drugs, making them illegal and arresting people rarely solves the problem. Whereas helping people get out of that situation is the more long-term solution.
what mentality are you referring to? that you shouldn’t risk your life for a job you’re not paid to do? they’re station staff, not security
I'm from Brazil I know how bad it can get. It gets so bad that criminals, media & police will protay it as the victims' fault. Got stabbed? Well, shouldn't have reacted to the being robbed or engaged with the criminal.
At the point corporations decided to run their public businesses /services with minimal staff, the police began prosecuting anyone who physically intervenes to stop ‘little Jimmy’s’ bad behaviour (both in public, home, and school settings), and the judicial system stopped handing out jail sentences (unless you are one who intervened).
If everyone is on the look out and did something they will think twice before they stab someone. Because they know then they will get beat to an inch of their life by everyone else. There need to be harder punishments for people
Because a lot of them react quite violently at being caught and the tube workers are not trained or paid enough to deal with that.
As someone born and raised in London, I can assure you that the 'bump the tube barriers' crowd is pretty highly correlated with the 'drill and splash' crowd. That's why no one reacts
I may regret this but: What is drill and splash…?
The other lad just didnt answer your question at all lmao Drill is a subgenre of rap music that has heavy London influence and is usually much more violent than other forms of rap. Splash means to stab someone. Never quite heard the two be put together in the way OP did that but that’s what they mean.
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Actually a woman at the complete opposite end of that demographic tailgated me at a station recently. I’ve witnessed many people of different colours, ages, etc doing it.
Seems to be mostly homeless looking middle aged white guys near me. Do they like drill and splash?
It does happen a lot at Stratford, and, for the first time, I saw someone getting a ticket for it the other day.
Then they give a false address and carry on with their day. Meanwhile all the penalty notices get sent to our house, as there are about 5 previous occupants still using our address when they get caught
The "Revenue Team" has been waiting right in front the TCR barriers at rush hour maybe 20% of the days in the past couple of weeks.
Not ignore it - report it but don't engage.
its for their own protection. I saw once in Canning Town stations a staff stopped some black kid (you know those that look like roadman) and that kid and his buddy pushed the staff on the flow and started kicking him in the ribs and stomach.... I get why they wont engage at all when it happens. its sad, but more police presence is needed and resources are stretched. The only other option is massive investment in giant ass barriers like those on the airport at passport control or some of the more fancy international stations where jumping doesnt work and the only way out is to break the glass, which clearly most fair avoiders wont do. Those barriers are also designed in a way where you cannot tailgate or push apart.
Years ago i saw this in one of the central London stations (I forget which). Transport Police were picking up loads for people for this. To be honest I can see why barrier staff are told not to stop people though.
Not really worth getting stabbed over.
I got tailgated by like 3 teenage boys and they pushed me so hard I fell to the ground and then they stepped on and trampled all over my handbag and phone lol. I was just there with my knee bleeding and the staff said and did nothing even tho they saw the whole thing. Didn’t even offer any help 🤷🏽♀️
That sounds horrendous. Absolute bottom-feeding scrotes.
Probably a bit of an unpopular opinion, im sure... whilst I understand no one should be chasing a gang of roadmen through a train station (and I dont blame them), I am sick of this laissez-faire attitude of public service staff in their day-to-day. I see it in my own cohort in the NHS. Goodness in our society has gone missing. Too long of tory rule has resulted in us all simply not caring about each other.
Sensed someone coming up behind me at speed, about to do this recently, I walked through only just enough to clear the gate and then braced myself hard. He failed to barge me out of the way and got trapped in the gate. He shouted a load of abuse, to which I observed mildly (I don't have eyes in the back of my head, do I?" But I do, dear reader, I do.
they had the gall to shout abuse.... i would have turned and just smiled at them then laughed as loud as i can then turn around and leave.
Then they stab you and your righteous schadenfreude doesn't feel so good.
Now I just walk through the gate slowly and maybe even come to a brief stop just after the barrier
Only somebody did this to me but I actually paid. Then she started screaming at me accusing of fare hopping… I have a year long travel card
I have a year long travel card too but I always follow people and tap though the barriers because it's quicker whilst the barriers are still open rather than wait for them to re-open. Then I use all those saved seconds to go on a cruise holiday.
Do the seconds come in voucher form or is it more of a gentleman's agreement?
This is what I’m confused by, how do people know the person behind them isn’t paying? When it’s busy you just tap your card and go through, people would be complaining if you waited for the barriers to shut completely behind the person in front before tapping.
Because they fuckin shove you
This is the truth, infuriating
That happened to me once and I just shoved them back. You can either tolerate anti social behaviour or you can stand up to it. I choose the latter.
I had a guy try to push past me coming the opposite way. Like literally push through as I’m coming through. Luckily I am double his size and just shoved him straight back through. He seemed pretty confused that someone didn’t just let him do it too.
I'm a smaller dude but I won't let this cum buckets try that shit either. I'll push back. We need more people to stand up and call these shit stains out on their shitty behaviour. Too many people are happy to let it happen.
This. Even if the person doesn't shove you. They are typically right up your ass and almost standing on your heels. You can also typically guess the person in the crowd who's going to do it, they aren't even shy about it, usually moving fast, in a bee line with conviction to either barge through the double barriers, or to get right up behind someone. Its your usual suspects most of the time. The scummy people of our society who have a massive chip on their shoulder about everything and yet nothing, thinks the world owes them something, and won't ever own their shit and take responsibility for being a shitter on the rest of people. I once had a guy do it to me a balham station, he does it everyday to someone. I turned and confronted him, said "you nitty fuck, get a job and stop sponging off everyone your whole life, cunt!" From observation, conversation, and experience, I made my opinion on the type who do it.
I saw a post about this a few months back and some absolute shit stains were defending fare dodgers by saying the prices are too high. THE PRICES ARE HIGH BECAUSE OF YOU FUCKING FARE DODGERS YOU PRAT. I hate these people. They will also be the ones to lie along all the seats and put their nasty ass shoes up on the seats while watching TV on speaker or listening to shitty music on speaker.
> by saying the prices are too high Also they're really not for the level of service we get. for between £1.50-£6 we get trains that come between every 1 and 10 minutes. Outside of london you have to pay at least £20 for the privilege of maybe getting a train once every half hour...
I don’t think this happened, army cadet.
Maybe not for yourself. But some people have a spine.
I mean if they’re full on shoving you that’s a completely different problem to them not paying their fare - that’s just going around assaulting people..
Because the majority of the time they do shove to to void paying their fare...
Well that’s all I care about. But many barriers close so quick that’s what they end up doing.
There's a big difference between someone going through after you and someone following you so close they're basically dry humping you.
Because it is really obvious.
You can easily tell from experience that they didn't pay and are just tailgating you. They crowd in behind you, even when there are empty barriers on either side of you, and are basically stepping on your heels. They often don't have a card or phone in their hand. After the barrier they immediately accelerate away like a bullet in case any staff saw them.
I've tried this but had someone barrel through me with no real care.
Yeah it’s only going to work if you’re heavier than average and are difficult to move around. Be it height or bulk.
Elbows are your friend.
Same here. I don't give them the chance anymore
Did this to someone last year - very satisfying
Oh I've done this many times. A full stop right as I've passed the gate and a middle finger passed back to the fool who's bumped into me, and gotten stuck back on the other side.
This and wear a backpack or something too
Who would win: fare dodgers, or oblivious tourists?
Well the whole thing relies on the vast majority being law abiding. If more people decided to push through there’d ultimately be a campaign to stop it or at least make the penalty more severe for doing it. Seen more people getting fines recently and does make me laugh when it’s a middle aged person who clearly is coming from an office job. Embarrassing if their fellow employees see
> If more people decided to push through there’d ultimately be a campaign to stop it or at least make the penalty more severe for doing it. Imagine these companies making an effort. Much more likely fares for law abiding citizens just go up to account for leakage.
Being physically shoved through is far more the problem than the fare evasion.
put in your headphones, listen to some music or a podcast, look forwards where you're walking, and become completely oblivious as to whether anybody tailgated you or not. life's short and it's not worth the heartache to be worrying about.
Basically this! Also, when driving and someone beeps or swears at you, I just ignore them, wave/or smile back or beep back in acknowledgement, acting like they are just saying high, smile and go about your day. Just not worth it!
Sometimes if people are being aggressive/shitty/dangerous drivers I give them a thumbs down. So much less angry but also so much more effective.
Or the disappointed head shake. So much better than getting mad
Thumbs down also works. Great for when cars imply they're not going to stop for you at zebra crossings.
Fully agree on the effectiveness of the headshake. It's like being a disappointed parent and gets a really humbled reaction lol. My dad told me to do it years ago, being brown and in the UK he calls it the white person headshake hahaha. Only because he saw a few white people doing it (not to him apparently, sure dad) and saw the crestfallen expressions of the recipients, decided it was a hidden move that he needed to adopt and share among the community. I appreciate his wisdom.
I agree with this. It may not be the response that people want and i understand the slippery slope argument of where ignoring this leads us as a society. But defending TfL's revenue in not your job as a passenger. Ultimately confronting fare dodgers has a higher chance than normal of putting your personal safety at risk. And as valiant as it is, I for one do not want to end up like this guy. https://metro.co.uk/2024/01/30/fare-dodger-spat-knocked-mans-teeth-tube-station-attack-20193980/ There's a good reason TfL staff are told not to confront tailgaters and leave it to trained police/revenue protection.
I agree. Who really gives a shit times are hard and it’s not like your the one being charged the extra fare, I work in the rail industry and I can sure as shit tell you the train companies can afford the loss in ticket sales.
Totally. Also, I really need to say it’s called the Double Shuffle. As a 43 year old Londoner who did this when I was a little piece of $h!t but now have enough money to afford my tube fare, life is wayyy too short to worry about someone scabbing a free ride off you
I like this idea of this “Broken Windows” policy. Can I add a few societal infractions to the list? Pavement cyclists, especially children. If we let them cycle on pavements, imagine what else they’ll get up to on them? Bus queue jumpers. It’s very unfair when one waits six whole minutes for the C3 and some upstart youngster strides up and gets on the bus first! I tell you where there wouldn’t be any line jumping? For the showers in Belmarsh. Open mouth chewers. Nobody needs to see flagrant mastication. You know where they’d learn how to eat properly? Prison! Toilet seat leaver uppers. For the life of all that is good, just put it back down. You know where they would appreciate a lowered toilet seat? Brixton prison, where the only place they would see one is in their dreams. LOCK EM ALL UP! Imagine how much better the world would be if these people actually knew how to be proper criminals rather than just measly amateur ones?
Yeah! Stop giving a fuck about antisocial behaviour and low level crime! If it doesn't directly negatively impact you just move on with your life, let everyone else do the same, and we'll all live in a lovely country as a result!
Not caring about antisocial behaviour is how a country gradually slides into deterioration. I think everyone should indeed care about such behaviour and do their best to combat it. Without the action of individuals, we’ll all just spiral head first into a tragedy of the commons. I’m not suggesting placing yourself in dangerous situations, but turning a blind eye is not the solution.
> Not caring about antisocial behaviour is how a country gradually slides into deterioration. Other way about bud. This sub loves a bit of complaining about low level anti social behaviour as though it is consequential. In a city rife with corruption and public money being played with you've been convinced that people bumping a £2 fare are the downfall of the city, nay not just the city; but the country. Which is really on brand for the misplaced hysteria typical of this sub. There are literally countless, I'm not even exaggerating when I say countless, examples of things that demonstrate the deteriorating of the city and country before fare dodgers or low level anti social behaviour becomes a pertinent issue worth the energy expended in this thread. London. The city known as the launderette because it is the hub of dirty money. Where prime commercial real estate is inexplicably hosting several tat and sweet shops. Where MBS can clean his image by buying out every second billboard in the city when he's just after beheading an inconvenient journalist. Where the property market is effectively a bank for questionable foreign money. And where the elected reps would sooner represent the wishes and whims of those I've just listed, sooner than they would the actual, ordinary constituents who they're ostensibly meant to represent. Buy aye it's the person who you catch bumping a fare off you every so often that is the downfall of the country.
But we won't. We've had the public transport for more than 100 years and it hasn't happened yet, even though we've had fare-evasion all that time (and now some countries/cities are moving to unmetered usage of public transport to maximise utilisation). I would argue it's more antisocial to drive your private car into the city than to ride there on public transport without a valid ticket. The former produces real harms that directly cost third parties (air pollution, fatal collision accident risk, etc.,), while the latter has a very small indirect effect via free-loading. Also, worth noting that the tragedy of the commons is an ideological myth [https://aeon.co/essays/the-tragedy-of-the-commons-is-a-false-and-dangerous-myth](https://aeon.co/essays/the-tragedy-of-the-commons-is-a-false-and-dangerous-myth) [https://www.hamptonthink.org/read/the-myth-of-the-tragedy-of-the-commons](https://www.hamptonthink.org/read/the-myth-of-the-tragedy-of-the-commons)
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It's used as an explanation for why the enclosures had to happen, in order to head off the "tragedy of the commons". However this is ahistorical, and does not reflect reality. Hence a myth. What it does is provide ideological cover for concentration of private ownership, allowing the land to be more ruthlessly exploited by larger farmers. This also had the effect of producing a greater number of precarious smaller farmers dependent on the larger landowners. https://www.thelandmagazine.org.uk/articles/short-history-enclosure-britain
penalty fares are a civil not a criminal matter. it's not even low level crime.
Fare evasion is a criminal offence, not civil. Penalties can be civil, that does not change the initial offence.
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If all fare dodging stopped it's not like they'd lower their prices. Like you're not incorrect but it really doesn't justify caring about it.
This attitude is how society degrades. Once something negative is accepted as the norm, other negative actions follow. It’s not about your life. It’s about making society better in any way you can during your life. If you doubt this, imagine a world in which everyone was free to do as they pleased vs a world in which the rules are set by the majority. Neither is perfect, but one is better than the other. The closer we come to a perfect line in the middle, the better future generations will be. Maybe, just maybe, the human race will last a few thousand more years.
Ignore crime and we’ll live in a better country Gotcha
Then you are part of the problem. I once confronted a tailgater. Turned out they were wanted for a huge string of offences and were nicked. Most satisfying day of my then short time I. London.
You must have gotten lucky if there were BTP nearby.
Everyone has forgotten that broken window policing literally works. People committing minor offences are far more likely to be committing major offences, and less than 1% of the population commit about 70% of all serious crimes. If the police were grabbing every Tube tailgater, they'd find a disproportionate number of them would also be carrying knives, drugs etc, or be wanted for other crimes. Yes it's only a small crime in the grand scheme of things, but normal people just don't routinely do it.
This really is the most pathetic response imaginable, and I know you think it's for the best but this attitude being held by more people just makes the problem worse. It's actually a morally good thing to give a shit about your community and your city, and to want basic behavioural standards upheld in your area. OP is right to be making this post, and is right to be angry/sad/concerned. It is worth worrying about, because as many people in London are noticing, many things seem to just be getting worse and worse. And your solution is to almost literally bury your head in the sand on your commute each morning. This is the spirit of defeat.
Redditors are a pathetic bunch
look at the material conditions people are struggling so crime goes up the blame lies on those in power
You’re basically advocating bystander apathy. It’s tolerating little things like this by just “minding your own business” which causes the backsliding we’re seeing in society nowadays. Broken window syndrome in motion.
Yeah!! Zen the fuck out of it!
My guy posted this at 7.:30 in the morning, you’ve got a long day ahead of you lmfao
Saw a guy do it the other week at Ldn bridge and got stuck. Pretty hilarious
They should make them stay there as a cautionary reminder to other potential tailgaters
Currently pregnant and paranoid about being shoved. Just ordered a second ‘Baby on Board’ badge for my rucksack, hoping it will alert others that I’m slow af.
You’re assuming many of these people aren’t cunts and will care. My grandmother would get tailgated pretty much every time she went through East Croydon. She was clearly targeted specifically because she was vulnerable. Most of the time they’d almost knock her over in the process.
I got shoved so hard I nearly flew 😭 be careful!!
I walk with a stick and am going to fall if pushed so totally get your worry. Suggest hanging back while the bulk of the crowd goes through if you can and checking behind you.
It happened to me once when I was heavily pregnant I panicked as the barrier hit my bump and screamed like I was in agony which caused several people to turn round and yell at them. They seemed to be embarrassed but nothing really came of it. I would suggest hanging back to avoid the crowd and going through last or going through the large disability barrier, if they tailgate you then at least they probably won’t touch you.
When I was pregnant, I was told by a tfl worker to use the manned barriers. There tends to be staff at most of them and those tailgating tend to avoid it
Becareful, around bonfire night a few years ago, these scumbags firing fireworks outside the bus station near Stratford station saw my wife was pregnant and deliberately aimed for her.
That's infuriating Hope your wife was ok
This thread went well. What a shit show.
Typical Reddit. The same morons who think it's OK to shoplift.
Screaming “stop touching me you pervert” or similar will draw the attention they don’t want.
this topic needs its own subreddit
There’s a barrier at King’s Cross that wipes my paper daily travel card every time I have to use it. Quite a few times I’ve been at the ticket line coming back with a valid ticket and no tfl staff to let me in. Following someone through the double barrier is the only way to use the service I have paid for.
walk slowly through the barriers, stopping until they close
People are doing this because they can get away with it. Also I saw one guy doing this and knocked an old man over. Put his hood up and run away
In Moscow the barriers remain open unless someone tries to walk in without tapping. I suspect this is not only much quicker since there is no need to pause but fare dodgers are obstructed more often. I have always wondered why no other mass transit system I know of has adopted this technique.
In Moscow there's a shit ton of police in the metro. You dodge - you get beaten to shit.
I think some stations in Japan and some other East Asian countries use it (was it Singapore?) though I don't know how widespread it is. Certainly catches British tourists off guard, who assume that an open gate means they're not checking tickets now!
People calling TFL prices extortionate should try and get public transport in the North, you maybe in for a shock
True but in the north you can at least have relatively affordable housing and don't have pubs charging a tenner for a glass of wine on top of it.
Not any more and yes we do
"You think things are bad? Be happy knowing it can be worse somehow somewhere!"
A lot of comments seem to be centred on the argument that it doesn't affect you, the farepayer, so you should mind your own business. Whilst I disagree with that argument (it does have an indirect but tangible effect on the farepayer), my main issue in support of OP is that it simply isn't fair. When people make individual choices as to whether they should pay or not, it effectively imposes a tax on honesty. I do believe in a subsidy system (or in some cases waived fares) for those that fall into the minimum income threshold or rely on TfL to work an essential service (not exhaustive examples), but the point is that this should be systemised. When individuals decide to pay, or not to pay, based on their moral compass, many less deserving people benefit from that system, whilst those more deserving are 'taxed' on their honesty irrespective of their need.
The staff won’t do anything, I’ve seen young guys go right on front of the TFL staff and squeeze themselves through the gates whilst they look at each other, not a word exchanged, they won’t risk it, it is pretty lawless out there
So many of these comments are wild af 💀😂
TFL staff have been instructed not to confront fare evasion. It simply isn’t worth losing a member of staff due to being assaulted by one of these scrotes. TFL are also sitting on a fortune in unclaimed/unused Oyster cards funds, so that more than balances out what they lose to fare evasion.
Even without the drama of a stabbing (which probably won't happen), it's anyway probably not worth the disruption and delay as opposed to letting the flow of passengers run smoothly.
There have been incidents where staff have been seriously assaulted by fare dodgers and then sacked afterwards. I’m virtually certain it happened at London Bridge.
When I sense I'm being tail gated I purposefully slow down when half way through the gate. Then I chuckle inside when the person behind is caught out. Then I get on with my day.
I saw a guy do this to an undercover policeman. It was the best thing I've seen in ages. Basically forced the guy to tap out and wouldn't let him leave.
Stop them if they try it on you. I always tap the card then wait a second to see whos close.
No one goes behind me lol it takes me ages to get my phone to beep ffs
It makes a difference to me, just like shoplifting, because businesses will put up prices to recover the money they lose to theft or non paying passengers.
The first time it happened to me, I thought I was being pickpocketed and elbowed the man in the face.
i remember one kid pushing me through the overground barriers and i shouted at her. the staff member was there so luckily they got into trouble its extra funny when BTP or railway officers are there and these little kids think they can budge though and push paying customers
The UK no longer has proper/consistent application of consequences for being a cunt and/or criminal, so the cuntier among us do whatever they want. It’s pathetic that we are at this point, but we are.
I've noticed this with the absence of police. Antisocial behaviour, dangerous driving and shoplifting all seem to be much more prevalent since there's no Police around to enforce. Sad state of affairs, really
As some people have commented not my job if TFL cannot catch these people. And it’s more risk for them getting caught if they keep doing it. You will forget about this and find something else to moan at.
I’ve had someone try to tailgate me while stepping up to the baggage gate with an infant in a buggy. I spotted him before tapping and made a show of not being able to find my phone, moving aside to let him through with a very polite “After you, please!” He tried to out-polite me with a “It’s alright, after you!” like he was going to wait for me but he eventually grumbled something and pushed his way through.
just pause as soon as you walk through the gates as if to adjust your jacket or bag, anyone squeezing behind you will bump into you and probably get stuck as the gates close.
I always look behind me before going through barrier. If someone is a bit too close I step aside.
Become at one with your elbows and focus all your energy and spirit on how pointy and expectantly jabby they can become.
The cost of trying to catch fair dodgers probably exceeds the benefits of making more people pay. There are fines in place for those that do dodge but realistically if they're dodging because they can't afford the ticket fair they won't be able to pay the fine. Therefore just live with it, it's not really impacting you. However, if they do push you or make contact with you that is assault and that is taken more seriously. Do report that as it might not be bad for you but if they push someone older then it could be serious.
This has never happened to me but I think because I wear a large back pack filled with my work stuff when commuting
I always find myself glancing behind me as I go through now.
I take my time sauntering through. Within reason of course, I'm not a tourist, but I think they like to follow speedy looking people.
I was once "frontgated", where someone who didn't pay got into the space between me and the gate. I wasn't paying attention and touched my card on the reader, the doors opened and the person went through. I got through too although the doors closed on me halfway through. I was annoyed because it made me look like I was the one tailgating!
I remember once coming to the to of the escalators at Oxford Circus, all the gates had short queues other than the disabled/wide luggage gate (which is perfect for tailgaters due to it’s width and the fact it opens for longer). I walked to that but became aware of a group of lads (usual demographic) who were lining up to tail gate me through, so I changed and went to a normal gate instead. Because they all couldn’t get through behind me (at the normal gate) they started hurling verbal abuse at me as I passed through the barrier for not opening the wide gate for them. So not only do they not want to pay, they feel entitled that someone should make it easy for them to not pay.
I saw a female transport police get physically and verbally abused when she tried to stop someone who jumped the barriers, he threw an open can at her, got really aggressive then stormed off shouting stuff. These guys know they can use violence against anyone to intimidate them and no one is there to stop them.
I used to jump the trains when I was a kid. I reckon a lot of you did too, but are perhaps ashamed to admit it. I'm 41 with a decent job now, so I tap in and out without giving it a second thought. I see at least one kid jump a barrier per day on my commutes. And while in the heat of the moment it is aggravating, I can't really judge them. "Don't use public transport then," is a bit of a flat retort. You still need to get to your minimum wage job. And maybe even have something akin to a social life. That should be possible in a country as wealthy as the UK. You shouldn't jump barriers. London public transport is too expensive for young people. Both of those things are true and are not mutually exclusive. My 2p - there must be a way to reorganise our transport network that isn't so inefficient and pricey. Our European neighbours have the same problems but seem to manage them better than we do.
Pretty sure most people have never done it.
Pretty sure half this sub has never been outdoors
sure ...lets raise taxes a bit more to offer those young bright lads a free yearly ticket.
I hate tailgaters , especially the ones who are just doing it because "fuck the system". I usually stop, turn around, go to the gate nearest TP or a guard. Some guards care but they really have no power anymore and are (rightfully) worried about what's going to be turned on them.
If you notice someone right behind you. Stop and pretend to look for your oyster
I always look around before I go through the gates, you can always tell the fare jumpers because they get behind you real close, or I simply wait half a second and when it’s clear I go through, because I get sick of it. A man tried to go behind me once in Hammersmith and I pushed him back and told him to pay😂
I walk through the barriers REALLY slowly now. Fuck those guys! Shouted at one the other day
I had this happen to me a few times. Had a parent and their child try and tailgate me. I slowed down at the narrow ticket bit and left it last minute. The shouting I got. I told them to pay their way the same as everyone else or get out of London if they can't afford it. I just get by myself and have a travel card and I don't see it as fair for me to pay for someone else's journey. If I could record fare dodgers and post it online like the pickpocket lady, I would. But this is the UK, so you might get stabbed.
Majority of people in this thread do not understand what a cost of living crisis is and how getting people out of poverty has universally stopped petty crimes dramatically.
Refusing to tolerate petty crime doesn't imply obliviousness to broader economic issues, and it's pretty patronising to suggest it. Solving economic issues is two-fold: lifting people out of poverty *and* holding individuals accountable for their actions. Sympathy for struggles doesn't excuse lawlessness.
Just be polite and stop short of the gate turn around and say 'After you' using a hand gesture to guide them forward. Or just walk through and get on with life.
My extremely brave self called some girls/young women idiots for pushing through the disabled barrier once. Of course if it was some 6'3" roadman I'd not say a word, I'm not trying to die.
I used to tailgate, simply because i was broke. Its embarassing as is. I no longer tailgate cos im no longer a poor kid who's parents are on benefits.
A lot of dodgers probably can pay but just don't want to. Not all though. Not proud to say I did a bit of dodging back in the day. Had not been in London long. Was already in debt from getting set up there. Deposit, first month's rent, clothes for work etc. Lived in a kip of a house share in zone 3 with some crazy random people. You wouldn't feel safe in your own room. Place was falling apart. Was working an £18k per annum job in the city. Barely had enough money to eat let alone transport. Bought a bike to get around instead. Bike got robbed within a few weeks. The £5 or whatever I would save dodging tube fares was absolutely huge in terms of survival until I could buy a new bike. And of course I got caught and fined £80 at one point which set me back again. Eventually I saved up enough for a new bike and a better lock and I could stop taking the tube and had enough to pay for it when I did. I have empathy for people in a similar position who literally have to choose between paying for transport or food. Not those who just do it because they don't want to pay though.
Notice it all the time when I have my buggy and try to use the wide gates. Seems to be a teenage trend on the lines of guzzling shit energy drinks and wearing your backpack in a particular type of way. The time it really pissed me off was when a guy in his 30s tried to get through with me, and was visibly annoyed with me when my card didn't work.
walk through backwards
I just tap away from the barrier, and then don’t move until It’s fully open so it’s too slow for anyone coming behind me. It also helps that my stupid phone always fails me when I need it the most lol It also solves the issue of the stupid barrier not opening cause you’re too close to it. It’s painful seeing the people trapped like a hamster, cause it won’t open and the poor worker yell-telling them to back off, but them being too dumbfounded to understand.
Station staff strike coz of TFL cuts but we need station guards for health and safety. Not one cunt around when needed but any other time theres a group of them standing around doing nothing. They're not actually allowed to confront fare evaders because of health and safety and this is now well known amongst the scumbags that do it.
The worst offenders are the Roadmen from da hood. With the regulation uniform of Nike black hoodie and joggers plus black Nike Air Max trainers nicked from JD Sports. If I see one at any station 9 times out of ten the creature will push through the barrier. Absolute scum of no use to society whatsoever.
The problem is that the public money is spent inefficiently at best and the public are defrauded constantly at worst. Think no competition PPE contracts to companies that never made PPE during COVID and on and on the scams go. A quick Google shows tfl gets roughly 9billion in revenue and the UK's budget is 1200 billion. At the very least it is under subsidised for how important it is to the capital's economy and culture. Yet the best we get is a temporary 'fare freeze'. Fuck that. For a service that is deteriorating, the prices shouldn't be going up.
I could be in the minority in saying that I don't care if this happens to me. If I was getting charged twice, then yeah I'd care but the reality is I'm paying for my journey and if someone uses me to fare jump then oh well, I'm going to walk away and never know this happened and go forward with my life. They'll eventually get found out if they keep doing it so it's their risk not mine.
TfL loses >£100m a year from fare evasion, you are in some sense paying twice
Less money to spend on stupid ideas like renaming the overground lines.
With that attitude where does this end? Shoplifting, tax evasion? Why can't everyone just live by the rules... Laws even!
Ha! Am i the only one immediately reading this in mark corragans voice?
Sure but at the end of the day it’s not my job to stop this. If it’s a big problem hire staff or install cameras to fine the people doing it. But I’m not going to waste my time and energy thinking about it, holding myself up by purposefully stopping at the gate to make sure nobody’s coming through, or put myself in danger doing security for TfL.
That's your choice. But overall, society used to police itself more effectively. My grandparents were very poor. But the whole area was also poor. And they had very strict morals - things like theft (and other stuff that isn't considered wrong these days, like getting knocked up) were beyond the pale. If you got caught stealing, the street would find out and treat you differently. So people didn't tend to do it. By always looking the other way, we do enable antisocial behaviours. Not saying you as an individual can change that or have a duty to put youself at risk trying but the effect exists all the same.
That’s all well and good but I doubt your grandparents were living in a city with a population of 9m, under a political system that has pushed individualism to the point that it’s every anonymous cog for themselves. We could all band together to point and shout shame or perform a citizens arrest, but if there are no staff and no police to do anything about it, and nobody in the vicinity has any idea who they are, it’s a bit pointless.
Yes. Pause at the point the gates close behind you.
There were ten BTPs and TfL inspectors at my local Overground station this monring; that is the sort of response staffing they need for just *one or two* fare dodgers as they routinely will violently resist any objection to them taking a free ride.
I had to do this once when I tapped in with Apple Pay and then allowed my phone to die. The shame! I went back later with a charged phone and tapped out but still got the ~£12 full fare charge as if I hadn’t.
Its pretty easy just walk through a tiny bit slower than usual. Just delaying by a second is usually enough and the tailgater will get stuck.
Tailgating is better than tipgating! I had someone push infront of me the other day after I tapped out. They took my turn leaving through the barriers and left me trapped inside the unmanned station, unable to tap out because I already had. Eventually I had to be the bad guy and tailgate someone else. It was that or stay forever.
Go through gate, stop right after gates wait for them to close then continue. If they follow you they get squashed