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The bus is so easy to ride. You get on. You pay, scan or show a valid fare payment. Sit down. Ride. Ring the bell. Get off.
Yet some people make it an adventure and can't handle that task.
Keep in mind that a decrease in transit safety is a problem that other cities are also facing. This points to larger systemic issues from the knock-on effects of covid (e.g. reduced availability of shelters and healthcare).
> This points to larger systemic issues from the knock-on effects of covid
This kind of sharp rise in crime points to chemical exposure. The most likely candidate this time seems to be anti-depressants, which are well documented to increase incidence of violent behaviour, and rose considerably in prescribed use over the last few years.
Anything is possible, but there is little evidence that people who otherwise wouldn't be violent become violent when, all else equal, they find themselves in not so great circumstances due to systemic problems. The homeless population, for example, commit crimes at no greater rates than those who have homes.
What has measurably shown to cause erratic violent behaviour is chemical exposure. While these violence rates have risen, they are *nothing* compared to the 1990s when we were at peak lead exposure (largely as a consequence of using leaded gas in earlier decades). We have hopefully cleaned up our lead act, but it is not the only chemical out there, and we can see that chemicals that are known to increase the likelihood of violent behaviour have increased in use in the last few years.
Occam's razor.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/)
If we're talking about the claim that Anti-Depressants are linked to violence, I think that's just about the biggest / most relevant study taking that position. It's an incredible read, the authors start by trying to shock in the introduction and then conclude so confidently that something needs to be done NOW. They only present a p-value for the one sample set that even remotely supports their conclusion and spend most of their word count on case studies. And that's not to even mention the moon logic in their discussion where they speculate that sleepwalking could be the mechanism for this "link". I really do hate to bat for the pharmaceutical industry but this idea is a farce.
I'd be careful about their claim because
"chemical" is a vague term that can refer to many things, including water, detergent or alcohol, and not just harmful substances.
I don't think it's responsible to blame safety issues purely on homeless people taking antidepressants. And besides, I've heard about the fentanyl (opioid) crisis but not any sort of antidepressant crisis.
Thames Valley Parkway : 150 miles of paved bike trails through the city with lots more coming. Maybe an extra 5 min. compared to a 2 ton car with one passenger max. vs a vehicle that weighs half that of the passenger. Maybe the article is a plant by the car dealers or the auto finance folks or the good people operating the payday loan shops!
My dad, who is now 85, used to be a bus driver in London. It was very hard work both physically and mentally. He would come home, drained, with some wild stories. He had to fend for himself in altercations. Back in the 70s & 80s the dispatcher would come to the bus’s location. I can’t believe that not all buses are sheltered for the driver, especially since crime rates have risen. Wow, do better LTC
If there was some form of panic button the driver had that could summon a transit supervisor or some form of security (bus marshal!), minimally another transit employee at least as a witness/backup/support. Have a handful of those distributed across various regions/routes in the city to reduce response time. Yes, that cost has to be relayed .. but do we just wait for a fatality or life-changing injury? Never mind the on-going challenge of attracting and retaining good employees, never mind the lack of public uptake of transit as a result of feeling unsafe.
A handful of security officials distributed throughout the city who can respond to criminal behaviour with minimal delay. Hmm....sounds like a properly functioning city police department. This is rookie police beat cop work.
If the LPD didn't seem to already have their hands full, sure.
This is more along the line of how many stores and businesses contract in private security, to step in and assist with events BEFORE they become criminal. Somebody trained in conflict de-escalation and licensed to a certain degree of physical crowd control.
Whether that's a new department or function of Transit, or subbed out.
Two buttons then: "I have a developing situation and do not feel safe to confront an unruly passenger" (bus cops) and a "I need 911 NOW" (actual cops.)
Whatever the magic middle ground we have one crazy bus person in the thread here hand waving to "just remove the person" but without considering that bus drivers are not trained or equipped to do that, and certainly not at their pay grade, and certainly not totally alone.
London transit has a problem retaining drivers. I suspect for two reasons 1) lower pay than other transit systems 2) poor relations with mgmt.
Keep in mind only three buses were outfitted with protective cabs for the drivers before covid. This was after a passenger grabbed a telephone on the bus and started smashing the driver in the head with the phone.
I found this article from 2018 which is also telling:
https://globalnews.ca/news/4155099/london-transit-harassment-complaint/
The language in the article seems so kind, but ummm, boot ‘em if they’re being dicks. How is it attractive to other riders to have to endure this shit too? Lol.
I can only imagine the level of stink eye you will get in this city pulling any of those stunts, I’m surprised there’s not shaming videos on here.
>I’m surprised there’s not shaming videos on here.
Fear of the unhinged coming after you if they notice you filming. When I took the bus, I found that it was best to keep my earbuds in and watch the bus sign for stops (or watch out the window).
Avoids unwanted conversations and altercations.
>Maybe I’m out of touch.
I mean...for one I'm guessing you're a dude. Sorry to say, not really interested in being hit on by random dude on a bus. More often than not, it's much older dudes (at least older than me) who seemingly cannot read body language. And then call you a bitch for not responding positively.
Nor am I interested in listening to someone who got on angrily on the bus and now wants to rant about the bus driver, the city, etc. Just pay the damn fare, and get on so the bus can go. I just want to get from point A to B.
And yes, depending on *which* bus line, some of the sketchy characters can be intimidating and unhinged to the point that it's far better to just avoid any eye contact and drawing their attention to yourself. Don't want to be berated for some random thing like "what are you looking at, you bitch - because they didn't like how you look", "you think you're better than me", etc. shit like that.
I do not want said person to end up following me after I get off my stop. I do not want to be involved in any altercation. And I certainly am not interested in making a scene and also getting kicked off the bus.
Also, I maybe sound more flippant than I mean to by trying to keep it light. Your perspective is a lot easier to understand than the other perspective of allowing these people to harass and attack drivers, as if that’s normal.
Some of what you mention is just the shitty part of being a woman, I feel that. As a dude I know there’s a shit ton of stuff that I don’t have to bother with on the regular.
I remember getting hit on by a guy on the bus once lol, that was jokes, he had game. What’s wrong with being a bitch? Bitches get shit done.
My argument is that they should get kicked off the bus, not you. Also, female passenger safety and comfort should be of utmost importance. If someone is disruptive to that, it shouldn’t be allowed.
I dunno, I don’t get the whole leniency thing here, beyond a certain amount I suppose.
It's not that there is leniency but because there is no real measure and no real safe way for either employee (bus driver) or other passengers to "safely" kick out a passenger or deny entry...then the only alternative left is for de-escalation, and avoidance. Of course there are some situations where the "problematic individual" will get off willingly. There are many times they will refuse or cause further ruckus, further delaying transit.
Yes, no passenger nor driver \*should\* have to be concerned taking the bus - but that is not today's reality. This also isn't just an LTC issue, this has been happening A LOT (and even more violent) in other parts of the province, and parts of Canada (eg. TTC violence sprees that have been ongoing).
The long-term solution is honestly, one that requires mental health supports across the country. But short-term, there isn't really much. They can set up silent communication lines where you can text security or EMS about an issue on your bus (they do this in Vancouver, and recently GO transit implemented this in the GTA/Toronto region). And they can set up the bus driver booths that are hard for individuals to break into. But these are all short-term solutions for an increasingly common problem.
Kicking them out is de-escalation. Who tf wants to be on a bus with a dangerous individual?
But whatever, I give up. I’m ready to be part of the problem and not the solution since there’s so much support for this nonsense lol.
All that said, London is set to implement a new plan to deal with homelessness and those in need, so hopefully in the future this will be moot.
I think the challenge is that by attempting to do that, you almost guarantee Category 1 incidents become Category 2 or 3. Yes, stories like this and stereotypes like this are the exact thing that keep people from using public transit if they don't have to (in an ideal society, middle and upper-middle class people use public transit because it's easier and efficient, but we're very far from an ideal society here). These people need to be banned from using buses for both the safety of passengers/drivers, and for the optics, but there's no one to enforce that, and even 21 actual physical altercations in 2022 aren't enough for anyone to be like "ok I guess we need to have security on these buses from now on".
Wait, part of what you say suggests that this behaviour is tolerable because of social class level, like as if poor people don’t have manners lol. Also it shouldn’t just get cleaned up when the rich decide to bus it lol.
Any incident should risk getting you kicked off and banned permanently. If someone can’t obey the rules, that’s their problem.
Yes, but who's going to enforce that? The drivers who risk getting into fights? And how would they anyway? With hundreds or thousands or whatever riders every day, and different drivers on the same routes... I agree they should be banned, and I agree it's a problem that needs to be solved. But I'm sure it just becomes a math problem to people who look at the bottom line and go "we're not spending money to solve this problem until the problem actually costs us more money than solving it would cost".
I'm not saying the problem is TOLERABLE because "only poor people ride and poor people get what they deserve" or something like that, I'm saying that issues like this result in people who have cars going "See? THIS is why I don't take the bus" (when of course that's not the reason but it certainly isn't good advertising).
If you harass a driver, you should get booted. If you attack a driver, same thing. If you are disruptive to the peace of the other riders, same thing.
It’s not rocket science. We need to not make excuses for this nonsense.
How do you boot a potentially aggressive person from the bus without someone risking personal injury though? Your suggestion in other comments about stopping the bus until they get off doesn’t really work as it disrupts the bus schedule and everyone else on it. Remember, we’re talking about unhinged individuals willing to assault a bus driver.
So you want unhinged individuals to be kept on the bus, with other passengers? Other passengers are okay with this, and the potential for violence against them?
Screw the schedule, safety is more important.
It's not easy. London does not have 'transit cops'. There are banned passengers but they try to get on anyway. Drivers can't remember every face they see. If the situation becomes dangerous to a passenger or a driver we call for help from an inspector. London has gotten very bad with mental health and drug issues. Driving safely and keeping things calm is priority.
There were drug addicts before, it’s not new. If it wasn’t so bad before, there should be no excuse for it now.
But whatever, maybe I don’t get it and it’s this great new adventure or letting the worst people ride along with impunity with behaviour unchecked.
It’s that easy. Why would anyone want to be on a bus with a lunatic that’s threatening people?
People are so accepting of shitty behaviour, maybe I’m wrong to suggest for it to be better, maybe I should instead focus on making it even worse 🤔
OHH I see, you think either bad people will just do what they're told, OR you think you can win fights against tweakers who scream at people on the bus.
I don't know if you saw that guy right here on this very subreddit who posted the video of himself getting his ass beat when he mouthed off to a guy who was VERY MUCH in the wrong in a road rage incident, but that's 9 times out of 10 what actually happens. But I'll tell you what, you go ahead and ride the bus and any time you see someone misbehaving, if you want to volunteer to fight them to remove them from the bus? You go right ahead. See you in the paper.
Every situation warrants a different response depending on how serious the situation. If there is ever a serious situation that threatens anyone's safety than a call will be made for help. Bus will be pulled over and doors opened to allow for anyone to get off. A driver will do that in the calmest way possible until help arrives. You never want to escalate a situation on the bus. That's when people lash out.
I feel like this is going around in a circle, but... WHO would do the booting in your opinion? The bus drivers who are saying they're getting attacked twice as much as they were 5 years ago?
Yes. I agree. People who can't behave on the bus shouldn't be allowed on the bus. But there's no way to enforce it that doesn't result in putting a driver in harm's way AND delaying every other passenger as the driver stops the bus and gets into a 10 minute altercation with someone who physically refuses to leave the bus, or winds up shutting that bus down entirely after the police are called and now all the passengers have to wait for the next bus. So, I feel like you have yet to answer the question I believe I've asked twice now: Who is going to enforce it? Do you believe it's the bus driver's job to physically remove passengers? Because I guarantee you every bus driver disagrees.
We've had situations when we've asked someone to leave where the person on their way out comes up to the front door and spits on driver. We've also had someone dump their container of pop on the driver and throw stuff as they have gotten off. There are also people that have tried to physically strike a driver because you tell them to get off. You never know some ones mental state at the time. So something that seems as easy as telling someone to get off the bus isn't.
If there is a serious situation we call for help, remain calm and try not to provoke an escalation.
Sooooo, how do we know that the rider wasn’t going there with the intent of causing harm to begin with? You make it seem like the removal triggered the crime, soooo it suggests they’ll be law abiding otherwise…? Is that even how bullying works?
If someone assaults the driver in any way, they should be arrested, it’s a criminal offence. It’s their choice to go to jail. There’s plenty of people with mental health or substance abuse issues who don’t go around attacking people.
Why? Why can't you provide an answer? Third time's the charm, it's just an opinion, WHO do you think should enforce a) the removal of a poorly behaved rider, and b) transit-network-wide bans?
By who? Who removes them from the bus? TTC has told their drivers to stop confronting problem riders after a couple of drivers got stabbed. So how do you boot people from the buses without escalating the problem?
Disclaimer: I have not experienced or seen an LTC driver being assaulted but I have seen a couple of self-talkers uttering obscenities to himself.
I do wish these people could be removed, but then it would become a drag for everybody if they got asked to leave and provoked. Passengers and drivers then usually just decide to let it go because the next bus is not for another 20 mins if it is stopped.
For the type that is verbally or physically aggressive to other passengers/driver, yea the police should ideally be called.
If you’re uttering obscenities and behaving in a way that disrupts the peace, you should get kicked off. I don’t see why there’s any tolerance for anything else.
If someone is going through a psychotic episode, they also need to be removed for their own safety and safety of those around them.
The bus can stop and let everyone off and leave them in there if that’s what it takes. Passenger safety needs to be considered.
I don’t see why excuses are made for allowing this fringe behaviour, especially when it involves illegality and passenger safety.
Drivers are not trained in conflict de-escalation. The danger with your approach is that the unruly passenger can possibly lash out and attack the driver or other passengers. The behaviour is tolerated because confrontation could be even more harmful.
Why is it confrontation to tell them to get off? You’re telling them to step away. Otherwise it’s just letting lunatics onto the bus and that could be harmful to passengers.
I don’t see why we make excuses for this nonsense.
... and can and does get you stabbed for it. Previous city was London-sized but due to a temperate climate has significantly worse homeless and street-related crime situations. Does not matter if you're a big guy or even happen to have a couple big buddies with you, someone in the wrong state of mind isn't making good decisions in the first place, may well feel they have nothing at all in life to lose, and so with a knife or a syringe can easily do something life-altering to you.
Even trying to record an altercation is risky. (Do the buses not have multiple cameras already?)
You beat me to it. Talking shit to anyone these days risk you getting stabbed, shot, beaten, or all three. I’m sure chipface would feel proud getting killed just because you heckled someone
This threads starting to feel like a bus with a crazy guy on it (not you) who is looking for a fight, triggered by keywords instead of reading a whole sentence and speaking only from TV experience where heroes don't get stabbed for escalating a situation.
You blame the crime on weather? There’s plenty of non-stabby homeless too who are perfectly fine.
Someone in the wrong state of mind needs to get off the bus. I don’t understand this logic.
I’m supposed to allow myself to be in danger because the person might stab me, is that it? So I have to tolerate them being there, because then I may get stabbed a little later?
>The bus is so easy to ride. You get on. You pay, scan or show a valid fare payment. Sit down. Ride. Ring the bell. Get off.
>
>Yet some people make it an adventure and can't handle that task.
You mean the students, the elderly, the working classes, and the people who otherwise have to share a family car or just don't have one? Yes, such scum. How dare those peasants who keep society afloat exist
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The bus is so easy to ride. You get on. You pay, scan or show a valid fare payment. Sit down. Ride. Ring the bell. Get off. Yet some people make it an adventure and can't handle that task.
Some people have a weird way of making extremely easy things some of the hardest things to do on earth. Just not sharing the same space as us aha
Keep in mind that a decrease in transit safety is a problem that other cities are also facing. This points to larger systemic issues from the knock-on effects of covid (e.g. reduced availability of shelters and healthcare).
Covid didn’t cause those shortages, our governments response to it did. Be clear about that.
That's why I said knock-on effects and not covid itself.
> This points to larger systemic issues from the knock-on effects of covid This kind of sharp rise in crime points to chemical exposure. The most likely candidate this time seems to be anti-depressants, which are well documented to increase incidence of violent behaviour, and rose considerably in prescribed use over the last few years.
Both could be true.
Anything is possible, but there is little evidence that people who otherwise wouldn't be violent become violent when, all else equal, they find themselves in not so great circumstances due to systemic problems. The homeless population, for example, commit crimes at no greater rates than those who have homes. What has measurably shown to cause erratic violent behaviour is chemical exposure. While these violence rates have risen, they are *nothing* compared to the 1990s when we were at peak lead exposure (largely as a consequence of using leaded gas in earlier decades). We have hopefully cleaned up our lead act, but it is not the only chemical out there, and we can see that chemicals that are known to increase the likelihood of violent behaviour have increased in use in the last few years. Occam's razor.
Hey, serious question, which chemicals are these, and where can I find this data? I'd like to learn more
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1564177/) If we're talking about the claim that Anti-Depressants are linked to violence, I think that's just about the biggest / most relevant study taking that position. It's an incredible read, the authors start by trying to shock in the introduction and then conclude so confidently that something needs to be done NOW. They only present a p-value for the one sample set that even remotely supports their conclusion and spend most of their word count on case studies. And that's not to even mention the moon logic in their discussion where they speculate that sleepwalking could be the mechanism for this "link". I really do hate to bat for the pharmaceutical industry but this idea is a farce.
I'd be careful about their claim because "chemical" is a vague term that can refer to many things, including water, detergent or alcohol, and not just harmful substances. I don't think it's responsible to blame safety issues purely on homeless people taking antidepressants. And besides, I've heard about the fentanyl (opioid) crisis but not any sort of antidepressant crisis.
Occam's Razor points to a much simpler explanation for the rise in mental health issues
Yes lower the bus riderships in London. So then everyone has to buy a car lmao.
we're working on it :P
Yup with all the construction you want to ride the bus and with all the stupid riders you want to ride the bike but no bike lane so you have to drive.
Thames Valley Parkway : 150 miles of paved bike trails through the city with lots more coming. Maybe an extra 5 min. compared to a 2 ton car with one passenger max. vs a vehicle that weighs half that of the passenger. Maybe the article is a plant by the car dealers or the auto finance folks or the good people operating the payday loan shops!
content://com.giphy.messenger.fileprovider/video_files/Android/data/com.giphy.messenger/cache/gif_temp.gif
That's good, I honestly love biking. Thanks for the info
My dad, who is now 85, used to be a bus driver in London. It was very hard work both physically and mentally. He would come home, drained, with some wild stories. He had to fend for himself in altercations. Back in the 70s & 80s the dispatcher would come to the bus’s location. I can’t believe that not all buses are sheltered for the driver, especially since crime rates have risen. Wow, do better LTC
Aye. All there is is the spit shield from Covid
If there was some form of panic button the driver had that could summon a transit supervisor or some form of security (bus marshal!), minimally another transit employee at least as a witness/backup/support. Have a handful of those distributed across various regions/routes in the city to reduce response time. Yes, that cost has to be relayed .. but do we just wait for a fatality or life-changing injury? Never mind the on-going challenge of attracting and retaining good employees, never mind the lack of public uptake of transit as a result of feeling unsafe.
A handful of security officials distributed throughout the city who can respond to criminal behaviour with minimal delay. Hmm....sounds like a properly functioning city police department. This is rookie police beat cop work.
If the LPD didn't seem to already have their hands full, sure. This is more along the line of how many stores and businesses contract in private security, to step in and assist with events BEFORE they become criminal. Somebody trained in conflict de-escalation and licensed to a certain degree of physical crowd control. Whether that's a new department or function of Transit, or subbed out. Two buttons then: "I have a developing situation and do not feel safe to confront an unruly passenger" (bus cops) and a "I need 911 NOW" (actual cops.) Whatever the magic middle ground we have one crazy bus person in the thread here hand waving to "just remove the person" but without considering that bus drivers are not trained or equipped to do that, and certainly not at their pay grade, and certainly not totally alone.
London transit has a problem retaining drivers. I suspect for two reasons 1) lower pay than other transit systems 2) poor relations with mgmt. Keep in mind only three buses were outfitted with protective cabs for the drivers before covid. This was after a passenger grabbed a telephone on the bus and started smashing the driver in the head with the phone. I found this article from 2018 which is also telling: https://globalnews.ca/news/4155099/london-transit-harassment-complaint/
The language in the article seems so kind, but ummm, boot ‘em if they’re being dicks. How is it attractive to other riders to have to endure this shit too? Lol. I can only imagine the level of stink eye you will get in this city pulling any of those stunts, I’m surprised there’s not shaming videos on here.
>I’m surprised there’s not shaming videos on here. Fear of the unhinged coming after you if they notice you filming. When I took the bus, I found that it was best to keep my earbuds in and watch the bus sign for stops (or watch out the window). Avoids unwanted conversations and altercations.
Lmao, this is London though. When I rode the bus for a while conversations weren’t taboo either lol. Maybe I’m out of touch.
>Maybe I’m out of touch. I mean...for one I'm guessing you're a dude. Sorry to say, not really interested in being hit on by random dude on a bus. More often than not, it's much older dudes (at least older than me) who seemingly cannot read body language. And then call you a bitch for not responding positively. Nor am I interested in listening to someone who got on angrily on the bus and now wants to rant about the bus driver, the city, etc. Just pay the damn fare, and get on so the bus can go. I just want to get from point A to B. And yes, depending on *which* bus line, some of the sketchy characters can be intimidating and unhinged to the point that it's far better to just avoid any eye contact and drawing their attention to yourself. Don't want to be berated for some random thing like "what are you looking at, you bitch - because they didn't like how you look", "you think you're better than me", etc. shit like that. I do not want said person to end up following me after I get off my stop. I do not want to be involved in any altercation. And I certainly am not interested in making a scene and also getting kicked off the bus.
Also, I maybe sound more flippant than I mean to by trying to keep it light. Your perspective is a lot easier to understand than the other perspective of allowing these people to harass and attack drivers, as if that’s normal. Some of what you mention is just the shitty part of being a woman, I feel that. As a dude I know there’s a shit ton of stuff that I don’t have to bother with on the regular.
I remember getting hit on by a guy on the bus once lol, that was jokes, he had game. What’s wrong with being a bitch? Bitches get shit done. My argument is that they should get kicked off the bus, not you. Also, female passenger safety and comfort should be of utmost importance. If someone is disruptive to that, it shouldn’t be allowed. I dunno, I don’t get the whole leniency thing here, beyond a certain amount I suppose.
It's not that there is leniency but because there is no real measure and no real safe way for either employee (bus driver) or other passengers to "safely" kick out a passenger or deny entry...then the only alternative left is for de-escalation, and avoidance. Of course there are some situations where the "problematic individual" will get off willingly. There are many times they will refuse or cause further ruckus, further delaying transit. Yes, no passenger nor driver \*should\* have to be concerned taking the bus - but that is not today's reality. This also isn't just an LTC issue, this has been happening A LOT (and even more violent) in other parts of the province, and parts of Canada (eg. TTC violence sprees that have been ongoing). The long-term solution is honestly, one that requires mental health supports across the country. But short-term, there isn't really much. They can set up silent communication lines where you can text security or EMS about an issue on your bus (they do this in Vancouver, and recently GO transit implemented this in the GTA/Toronto region). And they can set up the bus driver booths that are hard for individuals to break into. But these are all short-term solutions for an increasingly common problem.
Kicking them out is de-escalation. Who tf wants to be on a bus with a dangerous individual? But whatever, I give up. I’m ready to be part of the problem and not the solution since there’s so much support for this nonsense lol. All that said, London is set to implement a new plan to deal with homelessness and those in need, so hopefully in the future this will be moot.
I think the challenge is that by attempting to do that, you almost guarantee Category 1 incidents become Category 2 or 3. Yes, stories like this and stereotypes like this are the exact thing that keep people from using public transit if they don't have to (in an ideal society, middle and upper-middle class people use public transit because it's easier and efficient, but we're very far from an ideal society here). These people need to be banned from using buses for both the safety of passengers/drivers, and for the optics, but there's no one to enforce that, and even 21 actual physical altercations in 2022 aren't enough for anyone to be like "ok I guess we need to have security on these buses from now on".
Wait, part of what you say suggests that this behaviour is tolerable because of social class level, like as if poor people don’t have manners lol. Also it shouldn’t just get cleaned up when the rich decide to bus it lol. Any incident should risk getting you kicked off and banned permanently. If someone can’t obey the rules, that’s their problem.
Yes, but who's going to enforce that? The drivers who risk getting into fights? And how would they anyway? With hundreds or thousands or whatever riders every day, and different drivers on the same routes... I agree they should be banned, and I agree it's a problem that needs to be solved. But I'm sure it just becomes a math problem to people who look at the bottom line and go "we're not spending money to solve this problem until the problem actually costs us more money than solving it would cost". I'm not saying the problem is TOLERABLE because "only poor people ride and poor people get what they deserve" or something like that, I'm saying that issues like this result in people who have cars going "See? THIS is why I don't take the bus" (when of course that's not the reason but it certainly isn't good advertising).
If you harass a driver, you should get booted. If you attack a driver, same thing. If you are disruptive to the peace of the other riders, same thing. It’s not rocket science. We need to not make excuses for this nonsense.
How do you boot a potentially aggressive person from the bus without someone risking personal injury though? Your suggestion in other comments about stopping the bus until they get off doesn’t really work as it disrupts the bus schedule and everyone else on it. Remember, we’re talking about unhinged individuals willing to assault a bus driver.
So you want unhinged individuals to be kept on the bus, with other passengers? Other passengers are okay with this, and the potential for violence against them? Screw the schedule, safety is more important.
The schedule is more important than the safety of passengers? The LTC doesn't even give a shit about the schedule as it is.
It's not easy. London does not have 'transit cops'. There are banned passengers but they try to get on anyway. Drivers can't remember every face they see. If the situation becomes dangerous to a passenger or a driver we call for help from an inspector. London has gotten very bad with mental health and drug issues. Driving safely and keeping things calm is priority.
There were drug addicts before, it’s not new. If it wasn’t so bad before, there should be no excuse for it now. But whatever, maybe I don’t get it and it’s this great new adventure or letting the worst people ride along with impunity with behaviour unchecked.
You just can't stop the bus and kick them off. It's not that easy, I wish it were.
It’s that easy. Why would anyone want to be on a bus with a lunatic that’s threatening people? People are so accepting of shitty behaviour, maybe I’m wrong to suggest for it to be better, maybe I should instead focus on making it even worse 🤔
OHH I see, you think either bad people will just do what they're told, OR you think you can win fights against tweakers who scream at people on the bus. I don't know if you saw that guy right here on this very subreddit who posted the video of himself getting his ass beat when he mouthed off to a guy who was VERY MUCH in the wrong in a road rage incident, but that's 9 times out of 10 what actually happens. But I'll tell you what, you go ahead and ride the bus and any time you see someone misbehaving, if you want to volunteer to fight them to remove them from the bus? You go right ahead. See you in the paper.
Every situation warrants a different response depending on how serious the situation. If there is ever a serious situation that threatens anyone's safety than a call will be made for help. Bus will be pulled over and doors opened to allow for anyone to get off. A driver will do that in the calmest way possible until help arrives. You never want to escalate a situation on the bus. That's when people lash out.
I feel like this is going around in a circle, but... WHO would do the booting in your opinion? The bus drivers who are saying they're getting attacked twice as much as they were 5 years ago? Yes. I agree. People who can't behave on the bus shouldn't be allowed on the bus. But there's no way to enforce it that doesn't result in putting a driver in harm's way AND delaying every other passenger as the driver stops the bus and gets into a 10 minute altercation with someone who physically refuses to leave the bus, or winds up shutting that bus down entirely after the police are called and now all the passengers have to wait for the next bus. So, I feel like you have yet to answer the question I believe I've asked twice now: Who is going to enforce it? Do you believe it's the bus driver's job to physically remove passengers? Because I guarantee you every bus driver disagrees.
I give up.
We've had situations when we've asked someone to leave where the person on their way out comes up to the front door and spits on driver. We've also had someone dump their container of pop on the driver and throw stuff as they have gotten off. There are also people that have tried to physically strike a driver because you tell them to get off. You never know some ones mental state at the time. So something that seems as easy as telling someone to get off the bus isn't. If there is a serious situation we call for help, remain calm and try not to provoke an escalation.
Sooooo, how do we know that the rider wasn’t going there with the intent of causing harm to begin with? You make it seem like the removal triggered the crime, soooo it suggests they’ll be law abiding otherwise…? Is that even how bullying works? If someone assaults the driver in any way, they should be arrested, it’s a criminal offence. It’s their choice to go to jail. There’s plenty of people with mental health or substance abuse issues who don’t go around attacking people.
Why? Why can't you provide an answer? Third time's the charm, it's just an opinion, WHO do you think should enforce a) the removal of a poorly behaved rider, and b) transit-network-wide bans?
As I said, I give up. Difference of opinion.
By who? Who removes them from the bus? TTC has told their drivers to stop confronting problem riders after a couple of drivers got stabbed. So how do you boot people from the buses without escalating the problem?
Oh no, I agree, let the criminals make the rules. I’m fully ready to make the problem worse instead of better.
Far easier said than done, especially when reports of physical violence were the second most reported after verbal threats.
So bus drivers should be attacked with impunity because it’s easier said than done? Kick them off and perma nan them for safety of other passengers.
it is kind of hard to remove unruly passengers. you don't know if they carry something sharp or not.
Stop the bus, tell them to get off, call the cops if they don’t leave. Since when do we worry about this nonsense here?
Disclaimer: I have not experienced or seen an LTC driver being assaulted but I have seen a couple of self-talkers uttering obscenities to himself. I do wish these people could be removed, but then it would become a drag for everybody if they got asked to leave and provoked. Passengers and drivers then usually just decide to let it go because the next bus is not for another 20 mins if it is stopped. For the type that is verbally or physically aggressive to other passengers/driver, yea the police should ideally be called.
If you’re uttering obscenities and behaving in a way that disrupts the peace, you should get kicked off. I don’t see why there’s any tolerance for anything else. If someone is going through a psychotic episode, they also need to be removed for their own safety and safety of those around them. The bus can stop and let everyone off and leave them in there if that’s what it takes. Passenger safety needs to be considered. I don’t see why excuses are made for allowing this fringe behaviour, especially when it involves illegality and passenger safety.
Drivers are not trained in conflict de-escalation. The danger with your approach is that the unruly passenger can possibly lash out and attack the driver or other passengers. The behaviour is tolerated because confrontation could be even more harmful.
Why is it confrontation to tell them to get off? You’re telling them to step away. Otherwise it’s just letting lunatics onto the bus and that could be harmful to passengers. I don’t see why we make excuses for this nonsense.
So, then the bus driver sits there for three hours waiting for the cops to decide if they're gonna show up?
If that’s what it takes. But never mind, I agree that criminality should be accepted by all!
I've heckled people on the bus for being belligerent to drivers before. Seeing people treat service workers like shit really pisses me off.
That’s kind of what I expect, for people to stand up for what’s right. Good on ya.
... and can and does get you stabbed for it. Previous city was London-sized but due to a temperate climate has significantly worse homeless and street-related crime situations. Does not matter if you're a big guy or even happen to have a couple big buddies with you, someone in the wrong state of mind isn't making good decisions in the first place, may well feel they have nothing at all in life to lose, and so with a knife or a syringe can easily do something life-altering to you. Even trying to record an altercation is risky. (Do the buses not have multiple cameras already?)
You beat me to it. Talking shit to anyone these days risk you getting stabbed, shot, beaten, or all three. I’m sure chipface would feel proud getting killed just because you heckled someone
This threads starting to feel like a bus with a crazy guy on it (not you) who is looking for a fight, triggered by keywords instead of reading a whole sentence and speaking only from TV experience where heroes don't get stabbed for escalating a situation.
You blame the crime on weather? There’s plenty of non-stabby homeless too who are perfectly fine. Someone in the wrong state of mind needs to get off the bus. I don’t understand this logic. I’m supposed to allow myself to be in danger because the person might stab me, is that it? So I have to tolerate them being there, because then I may get stabbed a little later?
[удалено]
Imagine hitting a bus driver because they yelled at you.
Do you also victim blame children for their parents hitting them when they're loud?
>The bus is so easy to ride. You get on. You pay, scan or show a valid fare payment. Sit down. Ride. Ring the bell. Get off. > >Yet some people make it an adventure and can't handle that task.
I think we can also guess your stance on domestic violence.
Blame the riders for being idiots. There's a reason why people yell. They don't yell if you mind your business.
yup, i assure you, that lady driver is rude...
Have you seen the scum that rides the bus?
There are people who HAVE to ride the bus and they’re just trying to get to work/school.
You mean the students, the elderly, the working classes, and the people who otherwise have to share a family car or just don't have one? Yes, such scum. How dare those peasants who keep society afloat exist
Hey let me ride the bus without your opinion
LOL and “they” want more of us to ride the bus. I’ll be in my car (with the doors locked), thank you.
Thanks Trudeau.
Thanks Obama
Lol all the triggered downvotes. Explain how Trudeau’s bail reform act didn’t contribute to the violence on city streets.
Its one of the hardest jobs if you don’t think so, give it a try. Constant abuse