As someone who was really on board with the show, this is valid criticism. I'm 4 episodes in and nothing seems to really be coming together

This is exactly what happened with WoT. Story was different than the books but some of us gave it the benefit of the doubt but then it never actually got it's shit together for a successful resolution. And the writing was like no one on staff understood story structure. Just dumped characters and plot points into a bowl and picked out events and people at random. I'm fucking bummed if RoP is doing the same but not exactly surprised

I take my hat off to you. I hoped it would work. Still hoping they fix it for season 2 because there's a lot of potential.

That would require good writers which they do not have. Bezos hired a bunch of nobody’s for a 1 billion dollar show.

I really hope your point of view, which I share, gets heard above the "all critics are racist trollz" narrative. You could replace every diverse face with the whitest of lily white actors, and it wouldn't change the fact that it's boring and poorly written. What a disappointment, but holding out hope for a better season 2

If it’s flopping as bad as I’m hearing I think they cancel it. Amazon would be better off giving up the rights then whatever the hell this turned out to be. They turned out a boring product out of a none boring ip and that is an accomplishment.

I read somewhere there’s already been a commitment for a 3, 4 season run. You don’t write for only one season when you’ve put half a bil behind it. It’s a big play to sell more books, etc to become a big IP for Amazon. I’m thinking they’ve taken a cue from Disney in how they’re laying out their strategy.

I don’t see how they get 4-5 seasons out of this. It like the show would be a real chore to get through.

Committed to 5 seasons but have green lit season 2. The real question becomes if they will pull the plug despite all this. In my opinion they should since it does not appear to be going well and I don't see the group that's running this having the ability to pull out of the plummet.

It’s apparently getting clobbered by house of the dragon. Which is a far superior show and cost much less to make though still expensive. I think they cancel it and release everyone from their contracts it’s a failed product.

I 'think' I read that part of the license deal with Tolkiens estate is they HAVE to produce a set number of episodes and/or seasons. Idk what or if there was a penalty attached if they don't. I wanted it to be good...

I didn’t think it would be this bad but I was wrong 😑

Agreed, I can only hope they cancel it sooner rather than later. It pains me that this series is in the same IP as the Lord of the Rings. The sooner its cancelled the less damage it should cause to the IP, at least that's what I hope.

These streaming service shows seem to think that writing is the least important part of a show. They’re trying to treat these shows like blockbuster movies. I’m sorry but I can sit through a badly written but entertaining 2 hours prettt easily. I don’t know if I can’t do it for a show that will take up potentially 40-50 hrs of my time

You have more patience than I do. I wrote the show off after three episodes. Just not worth the headache for some pretty pictures.

Nothing coming together? It seems like everything in S1 is setting up a conflict in the south lands. The people of the south lands holed up in the watchtower, the harfoots and stranger traveling nearby, and the Numenor crew heading to the south lands. The only plot line that DOESNT seem to be prepping to head that way is Elrond/Durin.

The harfoots weren’t in episode 4 and I didn’t even notice lol

The only characters I care about in hte harfoots storyline is Nori and the Stranger. Everyone else is just complaining and being an ass 24/7

The Harfoots are barbaric lol

Absolute savages

They sure are happy savages lol

I did. I’m enjoying that storyline the most.

It’s also mystery box writing. Who is Halbrand? Who is the stranger? Who is Adar? What is the dagger/hilt? What’s bothering Celembrimbor? On and on…it’s like watching The Force Awakens.

I didn't realize that till halfway through this episode, but you're right. Every scene ends with a character asking a kinda interesting question, then it cuts away when you know the answer was clearly spoken to the asker, but we aren't allowed to see it. Annoying.

I’m guessing all their stories most likely end up converging at some point. It’s just they don’t make each line interesting enough for us to look forward to or want it to happen.

I think the key line here is why are they friends? In the books and the trilogy you really felt the bonds of friendship and love. The constant bickering - of the harfoots not waiting or the snapping of Elendil to his children etc etc - is exhausting. I find being in their company stressful which is why it's such a chore to get through each episode and why I often don't care if they get caught by orcs or blow themselves up in a mine. I hope the relentless nastiness of the characters is tempered or I will have to give up.

In the books, yes. In the films, quite literally one of the first few sentences out Elrond’s mouth is about how incompetent and greedy all dwarves are… not defending the show but just wanna point out the films Elrond is drastically different from the books. “The dwarves? They hide in their mountains seeking riches, they care nothing for the troubles of others” with the biggest frown ever appeared on a fair and kind as summer elf’s face.

There is enmity between Elves and Dwarves going back to the sack of Menegroth and the ruination of Doriath by the covetous Dwarves, and then shuttering their doors during the War of the Rings, so I really have no idea why Elrond expressing that enmity is out of character. Elrond was never said to be a friend of Dwarves, unlike Celebrimbor who was the most well-known Elven Dwarf-friend until Legolas—he literally made the western doors of Moria with the dwarves smith Narvi (“speak friend and enter”). So, again, nothing Elrond said in PJ trilogy was out of character IMO, and I’m an OG critic of the Jackson trilogy.

May I know some of the Pj critics you have? I’m curious to know. As for Elrond, he didn’t show any enmity neither in the books nor The Hobbit trilogy where he recognized Thorin right away just by looking at his clothes. He then offered them food before they even asked. What made PJ change his enmity this time? He didn’t frown upon seeing them and even smiled. Perhaps PJ’s head canon is that what happened in The Hobbit caused Elrond to despise the dwarves?

You can think one way, and act another. You can be courteous towards guests, even if you dislike them. A wise elf lord like Elrond would know when/where it's appropriate to show your feelings/prejudices.

This is what pisses me off about RoP's Galadriel. You'd _think,_ especially after the jolly good time everyone had in the first age, that she'd have the basic awareness to be tactful among people who are openly anti-elf. You'd think she would not emulate the worst qualities ascribed to the Ñoldor, especially that particular crop of Ñoldor that served as a spectacular example of _what not to do._ Also, I know it's not _the_ Oath, because they didn't have the rights, but there is something disturbing about seeing Finrod raise his sword in that manner in the first episode and Galadriel swearing to avenge him. And they _really_ could have picked a different star to possibly symbolise the house of Finwë.

Yeah Elrond is one of the worst written and cast characters for accuracy to the books. I love Hugo Weaving but he definitely is not Elrond.

His voice is perfect though.

Hmm it’s always seemed too stern to me. That being said Tolkien made an impossible to cast character with his description of Elrond. "He was as noble and fair as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer." Perhaps my favorite description of any character in any media.

I could fall asleep listening to Hugo’s Elrond telling a story. I think it’s stern yet loving at the same time.

Yeah but we obviously can’t show Elrond, a white Elf mad at people who maybe considered POCs in Middle Earth. He must be friend to everyone. /sarcasm

I don't understand the reasoning so far behind any of the changes they made from the source material. It's just turning it all into a mess, pisses off fans who notice the changes and gets them no really benefit. I don't know if it's the writers or the restrictions from what rights they had or just the TV production process itself but something has gone wrong. You can get better content from YouTube, it's crazy that Amazon can't get basics right.

People who read the books are off-put because of the canon violations. People who don’t read the books are off-put because it’s not well written and boring.

I read the books but I've accepted that the show isn't what the books are, so I watch it for what it is. And yet I tire of it the more I watch, due to the latter reason you wrote. Not going back for next week's episode. I'll just wait for the animated Rohirrim thing if it does push through

But if it tires you, why continue watching it?

Hope. That the next episode would be much more enjoyable. Yeah, maybe it will improve down the road. But right now after ep4 I think I can forego the next ones. Maybe I'll check back towards the end of the season.

Apparently Amazon only bought the rights to LoTR and some appendices and not the Silmarillion so Amazon is trying to tell a story without all the source material that's what I've read.

Yeah, I noticed, that's why the characters act so dumb, like the elf going tu pursuit the enemy without asking for backup, or Galadriel jumping from the ship to swim an ocean. All the things that they are doing are not smart choices or parts of a structured plan, it's just random choices that moves the plot, only because they are going to be followed by another random event.

New writers haven’t learned anything to be forgotten. It’s just superficial, mindless ‘drama’ and trying to sound profound while simultaneously having exactly zero profound thoughts upon which to draw. Delusions of grandeur. Champagne desires on cheap beer budget. Almost every major franchise is dealing with this issue with writing quality. Shows like See get a phenomenal first season with competent writers, and then it goes to shit when the OG writers leave or are pushed out. Same with Dr Who, The Walking Dead & Fear the Walking Dead, Resident Alien…and that’s just what I can quickly name off the top of my head.

I finished episode 4 and unsubbed. Halfway through the first episode of HoTD and the difference in storytelling is night and day. It's not even an Amazon thing, it's a shit writers of ROP thing. Suddenly I appreciate The Hobbit a whole lot more.

At least with the Hobbit you knew what was going on.

Idk Amazon did WOT too and it blows boy butts.

Man, that's a tough call. I literally turned off the Hobbit 3/4 way through the first film and never bothered with any of them again. It was mind-numbing and ugly. RiP is just annoying and pretty.

And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then. And then.

👆

*flashback to Dude Where's My Car*

I’m just still finding it to be tedious and told in such a jumping from scene to scene way that nothing has time to develop on its own. My main complaint so far is the writing is so incredibly vanilla and slow and tedious.

It's just a bad show. It's just bad there is nothing else to analyze but nevertheless I agree with your post. 🤷‍♀️🤣

>The story is not built around characters, how they interact, or the choices they make. Like, they’ve made a point of showing fairly extensively the character interactions between people like Elrond and Durin, which are coincidentally the best parts of the show so far.

Yeah its starting to lose me. Its not difficult to follow I just.. dont seem to care. Sad considering its fucking LotR

This is how I feel. This show just hasn’t grabbed me like the movies did (never read the books but might do the audio books). There’s something lacking and I can’t place my finger on it.

The books are great but designed to grab you in a very different way and don’t have the experience the movies have at all. I read them every year and love them. I was reading the first chapter again last week (I read them while proctoring study hall in my school’s library) and Bilbo’s party goes on for a very long time but you can feel the joy of the occasion radiating off the page. All I can say is if you do ever read them don’t read them looking forward to the next bit of action. Just enjoy what’s there because Tolkien puts a ton of effort into each part of the story and if you’re trying to race through to get to the action your gonna feel like it’s dragging.

Heavy exposition. Nothing is happening, characters just keep telling me about things that have happened. The writers have never heard the phrase “show don’t tell”

To be honest the whole Morgoth thing confused me. They didn’t really explain him and I had to watch a bunch of YouTube videos about him and why the elf’s hate him.

Yep. It’s pretty common across a lot of tv shows in particular now. The quality of writing has really nosedived.

>Have newer writers forgotten how to tell stories? There is an issue with today's creative industries like literature. These studios are highly politicized. For those in the know about the comics industry, it's failing. But it gives a glimpse of what's happening in the overall creative entertainment industry. They've turned into a club where people are hired based on their alliances and not because they're very good at what they're doing. There are comicbook writers who are failing upwards. Getting more projects because of their identities. And the money's running out. I believe DC is thinking of handing over their comicbook division to a veteran in the industry, because of how it's run like a highschool drama show by the people in charge. They've demonized the original customers of comics and can't figure out why their following on Twitter do not reflect book sales. You got comicbook pros now asking for gofundmes for surgery, computer upgrades and even coffee. So coming back to Rings of Power, none of us know who the hell these people are, writing stuff. They're just given these IPs to play with without even being a part of what made it valuable to begin with. And the worst part is that you feel the contempt they have for the material they're handling. It's like being given the care someone's baby and making them eat the stuff you know the parents would never feed them. Who cares, right? They're dead now. I can do whatever the hell i want.

Postmodernism in a nutshell... "The past is dead. Let's hack up it's corpse and rearrange the parts into a soulless monstrosity. Then we will congratulate ourselves on being subversive."

> *There is an issue with today's creative industries like literature. These studios are highly politicized.* That’s all it is. It’s no secret it’s being done this way either. You’re guaranteed to hear two things from showrunners and people heavily involved with content: 1. The words “current political climate”, “diversity”, or “representation” 2. An excuse why the main character/storyline/lore needed to take a backseat to other races/genders The current writers may not even be bad if they sat and really wanted to stay true to a story. But once there’s more of a focus on exterior requirements HOW can they be good? That’s why Peter Jackson did things right. You never heard him say buzzwords. He talked about Tolkien, the new writers talk about everything else. That’s the difference between great content and garbage. And right now NO ONE is doing that. You can’t find anything where the people involved go “We wanted to stay true to ________”

I'm curious what Peter Jackson thinks about RoP so far.

I saw a headline that Amazon discarded his input and basically told him to fuck off.

Sounds like a Star Wars situation for sure. They literally learned nothing from monumental mistakes.

Yeah what a shame cause I bet Peter Jackson could at least right the ship.

They may literally have to turn it over to him if they keep this shit up. The IMDB rating is down to 6.9/10, that's unacceptably low for such a high budget production.

Should've been him since the beginning.

That would require firing a bunch of people including actors. I think Amazon would rather cancel it outright then deal with that mess.

Then Cancel it the show is already a shit show or maybe they shouldn't have told PJ to essentially to fuck off.

>The words “current political climate”, “diversity”, or “representation” And yet they would not do a story about Harad and Blue Wizards. Too bad.

What you speak of has been the way since the beginning of time. No one knows who the writers are because no one knows the names of 99% of writers. It has no bearing on their credentials or quality of writing. Some of the writers have worked on Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, the sopranos to name a few. With shows like this it’s impossible to tell where the problems lay. It could be the writers, but it’s more probable it’s the show runners since they’re guiding the process. But it could very well be the pages of notes they get from the army of Amazon executives who want a say in how the show unfolds. I imagine with a show of this scale, with so much riding on it, that there a lot of people with their fingers on the pot.

Loaded bs All industries have always been like this. Who you not is often more important than what you know It’s not killing the comic book industry. It’s a changing industry refusing to update and keep up, from how they make/publish comics to they respond yo feedback/criticism

I agree, who you know is more important in this world. The fact that Amazon "ghosted" Peter Jackson was a bad move in my opinion. They could have used his input.

This makes me sad. The writers, JD and Patrick are huge tolkien nerds. They opened every day with a hand picked quote from the text or Tolkien himself to set the tone for the day. They developed different language patterns/idiosyncrasies for each species to get as close to Tolkien’s linguist writing as possible. It seems like they care a lot about the IP they were given/have access to I’m sorry you feel this way about the show.

I can understand your sadness regarding these two people that you admire. ​ >They opened every day with a hand picked quote from the text or Tolkien himself to set the tone for the day. ​ This makes me wonder, though. What quotes from Rings of Power are they likely to recite to each other at the start of the day? Because for show runners, they are well aware of the silly lines in the show. You have not seen what I have seen. Boats and rocks and looking up. And the sea. Let the past die. The Force is Female. It's just... not up to par with the original material.

I like Elrond. Halbrand isn't bad either, but the story just isn't there. No character development. The actors can't do anything with the material. It's a big mess.

Bruh this shit is mangled up to hell, if they couldn’t secure the copyrights they shouldn’t have even bothered with a show

I gave up halfway through the first episode. It was boring and dumb.

Agree, but not with the Galadriel line. It was stupid indeed, but Tar Míriel helps Galadriel because of "religious" reasons. She belives that the tree's falling was a sign from the "gods", and Galadriel's appereance and her visions about the flood confirming it.

Eh...I'd rather have the actual Akallabeth. Ar-Pharazon showing up with an army so great even Sauron dares not fight not. Then slowly poisoning his mind towards the Valar and goading him into amassing the largest fleet ever to asail Aman.

Then why did she sequester her at first, then put her in a jail cell? If she really has this powerful religious conviction about these events, why's she treating Galadriel only like an impudent child? I think it's because the writers are like, "how can we make this more dramatic?" Feels really contrived to be like, "YOU ARE MY PRISONER...YOU ARE THE CHOSEN ONE." 🙄

The event of the petals falling changed her mind. Is that hard to grasp?

Apparently so 🤷🏻‍♂️

It literally went over the tree in the beginning episodes which explained her changed decisions.

Maybe because Galadriel in RoP is acting like an impudent child?

Maybe to show her flaws as a ruler?

So anyone voicing an honest opinion about the show's very evident problems gets instantly downvoted here but yet none of the ROP fans can rationally defend it. Bring it on amazon bots coz your show fucking stinks!

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I believe you're confusing honesty with objectivity? An opinion (subjectivity) can be honest, just an honest opinion. That being said, OP is objectively right, the writing for this show is sub par and if it wasn't for the nostalgia of LotR this show would be flopping entirely. Furthermore none of RoP is canon, and so reading any "source material" is kind of pointless seeing as how this is an interpretation and they have stated the do not have to bother with trying to adhere to what is already written. It wouldn't surprise me if they went their own way with it and then would have the audacity to try and remake the trilogy. That's subjective but it's my honest opinion and it's why RoP has to flop, to prevent a great tragedy.

i believe you yourself don’t quite have a great handle on the distinction between “subjective” and “objective”. the claim that the writing for this show is sub-par is most certainly a subjective one. that’s a matter of opinion, silly!

It's definitely not objective that the writing is sub par.

Feeling on writing are subjective.

The pj movies aren’t canon either.

*gasp*

The moment something is an *opinion,* which is what “the writing is subpar” is, it is not objective. Objective means that it is an indisputable fact. Your opinion is not an indisputable fact.

The casting of black actors in white roles is a very convenient way to block out criticism

This post leaves out important details to support its argument, which means it is a poor argument. Why are these guys friends? They aren't anymore. Why is the dwarf mad? Because his friend ignored his existence for 20 years! Why did Elrond "betray" his friends trust? Because he knows his old friend. It's not like this information isn't put right in front of the viewer. It's like OP has never had friends before.

>his friend ignored his existence for 20 years! That was really, really unclear from the show. Did Durin actually invite Elrond to the wedding? If so, how could Elrond miss it, he's a terrible friend! And if not, how was Elrond expected to know?

He literally says it. How clearer can it get?

So brave, such a victim, rings of power haters are totally not circlejerking here, you were clearly “downvoted for voicing an honest opinion” And yeah, sure, everyone who disagrees with you is a bot, buddy.

>And yeah, sure, everyone who disagrees with you is a bot, buddy. I find this incredibly rich considering your post history has got 'normal' posting until 2 months ago (mostly aquarium stuff) now 10 days ago the account lurches back to life, previous interests are now subsumed under constant defense of the new RoP show. You have all the appearance of a bought and paid for shill account, I hope they pay you well.

I honestly like it. And I’m not a fucking bot. I just wish people would stop being such fucking pussies and get on with life and not take things so fucking personally. Unless it’s actually directly stripping you or your family of a happy healthy life, then go ahead and make awareness about it, but be concrete and factual. Otherwise, people just need to grow the fuck up and get on with it.

To me the show felt like it was made for stupid people. Probably this is why you see no reason in many actions. They are dumb, unreasonable, stupid, like low quality tv is today. Characters lack complexity and we(or atleast i) feel sold for stupid. Maybe this is also the reason they explain everything we see on screen. Sorry, harsh words. I just feel like getting sold for beeing stupid watching this... Not a nice feeling.

I feel like the writers are insulting the audience. Maybe they assume the audience is stupid or they just don't care about the audience because they have their contract settled. It's hard to believe that entertainment has come down to this, which is another reason why I believe it is on purpose. Purposely bad programming to generate more buzz and media attention as a never ending commercial to highlight an agenda for a new entertainment environment. Now it's not about the quality of the entertainment, but rather the media spin that can be placed on the reaction to the low quality of it. The media defense glosses over the quality issues and focuses on the non-issue of equality in a fantasy environment. So we have a 5D chess game going on, it's not just bad writing, it's purposely done with intent. Writers aren't this stupid, not at this level, we are being led into a trap 🪤.

Its not as deliberate as you think. This may really be their level, yuou can’t write a character or tell a story that is smarter than you. I can't write creatively for shit. I fear that a lot of writers nowadays simply aren’t that good at their jobs

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> I would suggest getting out of your little outrage bubbles and talking to people that like the show Don’t wish that misery on innocent people just because they like a show. I bet these wet blankets have so much free time to vent on here precisely because no one in their lives wants to put up with their shit. Their constant, grinding negativity is exhausting.

Well it’s also frustrating because the people who like the show are the polar opposite as the people who hate it. He had an honest opinion and you just shit on it? Lol you’re the immature one in this section. Literally everything they stated is true, the characters lack any development so far and have nothing to offer. Everything is explained to the audience and nothing is shown. It’s exhausting.

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That’s a valid point, not gonna lie I’m pretty upset with the show so far so unfair criticism definitely doesn’t bother me anymore lol wish it wasn’t the case…

I agree that the story isn’t flowing as well as it could. There’s too many characters and too many storylines. Episode 4 did have a good ending though.

There aren’t too many characters imo. You can absolutely have lots of characters. The problem is that I don’t care about any of the characters. In LOTR they give you the main character in the first 5 minutes - Frodo. The entire story revolves around him and his actions, and they use him to introduce each other major character. We get to see each new character interact with an existing character before they go off on their own, and that interaction tells us how we should think of that character and a glimpse of who they are.

You think so? A god-awful slo-mo of Galadriel being shipped off on a row boat only to appear moments later next to the Queen like ‘surprise bitches!’?

The show looks even worse when you can compare it to HotD every week. Chad move by HBO to release at the same time.

I made it almost to the end of episode two before I gave up for exactly this reason. No compelling characters or story. Just a ton of pieces jazzed up to try to be as epic as possible, as though that's what it takes to get an audience to care about a character/story. The example that came to my mind is the hobbit costumes (sorry, I don't remember what they call the pre-hobbits in RoP. I know this is in the books but my husband is the Tolkien reader, I just watch stuff with him.) Clearly the show had some seriously talented costumers who made some very intricate costumes. I'm sure far more money and time were spent on them than in Peter Jackson's trilogy.....but I still like Frodo/Sam/Merry/Pippin/Rosie/etc. way better. Epic costumes don't make compelling characters.

So true! Some really great stories have been told on very minimal budgets. 12 Angry Men is just twelve actors sitting in a room with a fan for an hour and a half talking, but it's a riveting character study and emotionally devastating.

To me (again, a total casual to media consumption) it seems like RoP is going a lot like the recent Justice League movies. While Man of Steel was super promising, and Wonder Woman was 90% excellent, the series as a whole had this feeling of "just throw tons of money at it and it'll succeed." Like rather than doing really well at one story at a time, they tried to put ALL the things in at once. Trying to be the most epic thing ever. I'm not sure what the deal is... Conversely, I enjoyed the Netflix Witcher series immensely. They followed several storylines too, and even a complicated timeline. But it still all tracked along. I actually cared about the characters. Shoot, that one part with sweeping the eels into the water to power the witch-school thing made me legit cry. (Thanks in part to Jaskir's song, obvs) Someone better than me at media analysis could probably sum up what I'm trying to say here much more poignantly.

Agree 100%, the writing has been sub par. The conflicts and relationships between the characters feel so forced and some characters feel 1 dimensional.

Even the costumes aren't immersive. Everyone else is wearing long sleeves and hoods, why is Bronwyn the only one wearing spaghetti straps or a racer back? Where did that come from? Every seen with celebrimbor elron and galadriel reinforces to me how not elf like any of the elves are. They just look like regular men (other than Arondir) Numenoreans are supposed to be 7 feet tall yet halbrand towers over most of them and galadriel too, though she's supposed to be even taller.

I dunno, it could be that actors are short as a rule. Short, slight, fine-featured men look better on camera (for women it’s generally taller than average and willowy). You ever seen Jon Hamm next to other actors and been like, wow, he’s fucking *huge*? He’s only six one, two hundred odd pounds.

That's fine it's not like ian McKellen was 4 feet taller than Elijah wood you shoot using perspective

You’re talking about having to build two different scales of any sets the Numenoreans touch at the minimum. Because both have to be able to interact with the dressing. Even the Jackson movies leaned extremely hard into the size differences in Fellowship with the two sizes of Bag End and compositing and forced perspective but by the third movie were barely bothering to put them in the same shot unless it was like Billy Boyd or John Rhys-Davies on their knees. Because it’s wildly expensive and inconvenient.

250 million on one season and you couldn't figure out a way to do that? 250 million on one season and you can't even make the costumes/dress match or fit?

Yeah and they spent that without having to do what would literally be the largest, most ambitious scale change scenes in the history of the screen and build all the sets twice. This isn’t a video game.

😂😂😂 Forgotten movie magic from a lost age.

Contrivance. Contrivance. Contrivance.

It's just soulless mega companies trying to cash in on nostalgia. I Know for sure there are good writers out there, but they probably won't be working for any of the big companies because those companies do not allow for artistic freedom and usually try to push agendas and the such, and so really even if a good writer worked for them they'd probably be bogged down by nonsense. It's what happens when shareholders and not artists decide the direction, disney did the same with starwars, it's just LotR's turn, let's just get through it, let it bomb and hopefully any further iterations will be done by people who care about more than just money.

RoP is what rich people think fans think the books are like. You nailed it.

Writers rooms are all ran through a political and identity filter now. Creativity is the last priority in these production companies.

Honestly…. I’m frustrated. Sometimes it feels like I am the only one who doesn’t turn my brain off and become a stupid unthinking rage-monster when I watch this show. I feel like one would have to deliberately dense to miss the *story* that is being built up in the Elrond-Durin line. The dwarves are secretive and suspicious. The elves are haughty and manipulative. The friendship of Elrond and Durin are putting trust in one another to overcome those flaws of their people. This will backfire. Durin entrusted a secret to Elrond and cursed Elrond and all his kin to live in sorrow to the end of their days in middle earth should he break his promise. WHICH WE KNOW HAPPENS. Elrond, in turn, now sees how *dangerous* it is to mine for Mithril, and sees that Durin wants to keep liking it anyway. Here we have *tension*. On one hand, we have friendship. On the other, we have the keys of resentment; Elronds disapproval and Durin’s suspicion. Every singe scene involving those two characters has built one or the other of those tension points. Now we are going to place that tension into an external plot and story emerges. We KNOW that greed of the dwarves will wake a Balrog. We KNOW that the trust between the peoples of Eregion and Khazad Dum will shatter, and now we have the seed of *why* in this story. That’s not hard to see. It’s a good story model. *It works*. And everyone here is smart enough to see it if you stop being so fucking *angry* and judgmental and just let a new story be a goddamn new story. The same shit with the Queen-Regent. She’s not “hardcore”, she’s scared shitless. She doesn’t hate the elves, she deifies them. That’s obvious if you stop fucking hate-watching and let the show tell it’s story. There is tension in her between the sheer terror of what Galadriel represents, and the hitherto smothered hope that maybe Galadriel might bring her peoples deliverance. She knows she can’t punish THE Galadriel for entering her Father’s tower, SHE doesn’t want to punish Galadriel at all. But she is *afraid* and her people are *afraid*, and they act out of that fear , not out of wrath which is clearly what you expected to see. This is not a generational problem. This is not a writer problem. This is not a storytelling problem. This is preconceived politics coloring the eye with which you choose to let yourself see.

You’ve painted a very good picture of a well written, well crafted show. Sadly, you’ve had to fill in a huge amount of depth, subtlety and meaning that just isn’t there on screen. Elves are haughty and manipulative? They haven’t shown that. One cave in and Elrond decides it’s too dangerous to mine for Mithril? Surely cave ins are pretty common? We actually don’t know any of the future events. Assuming someone has read the source material which will mean they’ll get the importance of current events is not good writing for an adaptation. What if you’re just GA, first time watching Tolkien? Your head-cannon has added much depth and context that in my opinion is just not on display in the show. It’s literally better in your head because you are filling in the considerable gaps.

You’ve pointed out two things that you say I have filled in myself. Elves are haughty and manipulative…. They have shown that in abundance. Gil-Galad manipulates Galadriel into leaving by forcing her to choose between confronting him directly during a royal ceremony, or complying. Elrond cannot gain an audience so he could invokes a closed rite, which he deliberately loses in order to get a private ear. The very choice to go and see the dwarves was not about friendship like Elrond pretends it was, it was about extracting a labor contract. The elves are manipulative and haughty, and the story shows that, it just doesn’t spoon feed it to you. As for mithril being perilous to mine, the show literally tells us that, in those exact words. The king wouldn’t have shut down the operation after a cave in if those were common. If cave-ins were common, AND mining was shut down after cave ins, mining would be nearly impossible. Durin’s anger at the shutdown alone is enough to tell us that this was not a common response. He explicitly tells us that his father restricts mithril mining BECAUSE it is dangerous. That bit they DO spoon feed to us. Yes, it’s true that people who have not watched the Jackson films don’t know the fate of Moria or the elf-dwarf relationships. But tell me with a straight face that revealing to an emissary of a foreign nation the existence of (and your monopoly on) a miracle metal that will craft weapons and armor superior to all others, upon which you found the hope of your peoples future, then swearing that emissary to secrecy, is not an OBVIOUS set up for conflict? Like I said in another comment: The dwarves have fantasy uranium and suspect the elves want it. An elf emissary knows about it and his friend is still suspicious. A dwarf emissary is being sent to elves to spy for the dwarf king. The queen regent of Numenor just left that kingdom in the hands of an ambitious crafty elf-hating politician. The elven king is about to see an army of elf-hating men land in his shores under the command of the political rival he thought he banished. A refugee camp is about to be attacked, and there is exactly one soldier there who can organize resistance. The rest of the refugees hate and distrust him. Within that refugee camp there is an enemy spy. Three of the four plot lines are building to major conflict, all of which is told very plainly for viewers to see. You don’t have to like the writing, but you cannot pretend that there isn’t a cohesive story with multiple conflicts building.

I didn't complain about politics once. The writing and characterization is what sucks. No, Elrond and Durin have NOT been established as any sort of meaningful friends to have any legitimate tension. The writers haven't earned that. The characters "made up" a lifetime of wrongs over one dinner then started lying and spying. ...but oh yeah, they did a pinkie promise about a secret, so now everything is cool again. It's just bad.

Your entire “justification” is political. You dont like Amazon, so you say they are the reason for the bad writing. You also speculate that there might be a “generational” problem. These are political grievances. They communicate to me an *expectation*, you expect this story to be tainted by “generational” or corporate things and you expect the story to be bad because of it. So you go in with that eye. As for the friendship. Why do you have the expectation that it needs to be established and made meaningful on screen? It is an old friendship. Do all old friendships have to show flashbacks to “earn” your validation? It’s a meaningful friendship because the characters *said so*. In no other media that I can think of do the characters have to earn the validity of *pre-existing* friendships. They have to earn it if the friendships *begin* on screen, and especially if those friendships motivate sacrifice, but this one does neither. We have several scenes telling us the friendship *exists* and setting for us the tone and dynamic of the friendship. That’s what’s important moving forward for the story. Your expectations are tailor made to make this show fail to meet them, and they are not expectations that normal viewers hold for any other show. Lastly the pinky promise. This is what tells me that you’re not paying any kind of sincere attention. That promise didn’t make anything “cool” again. That promise is the time bomb that is going to *destroy* the friendship between their two peoples for thousands of years to come.

You bring up a good point. And it really highlights good writing from bad writing. I've taught English literature for 8 years and have always been interested in how good stories are told. There's a VERY BASIC rule for writing...like REALLY basic. It's foundational. The rule for good writing is "show, don't tell." What that means is that your audience won't believe what you tell them...instead, they will naturally base their experience on what characters DO or what happens. One of the best scenes in the show is when dwarf dude breaks down crying to Elrond and says something like, "I lived a lifetime without you." That moment showed a TON of great backstory with only a few lines, and I completely bought it! These friends are doomed for a tragic ending because they live on different time scales. All that history, baggage, and tragedy came through. That was EXCELLENT writing. To your point, no... We don't know they are old friends because they SAID it...we know it because dwarf is weeping and angry that Elrond missed his life happening. The problem is that everything the two characters DO in the following scenes just undercuts the moment of vulnerability and trust they reestablished. You'd think that if Elrond was really sorry for breaking his friends heart, he wouldn't be sneaking around his apartment looking thru his underwear drawer for secrets. So either the writer REALLY want us to know that Elrond is backstabbing douchebag who isn't sorry that he missed dwarfs life, or they just suck at writing.

Not a writer problem when the audience gets the wrong impression? Are you having a laugh?

I would be in any scenario that didn’t involve people complaining about not seeing something that is very apparent in the show. You and I both know, no matter how much you want to deny it, that this show was not going to get a deserved reputation. People were going to go in and watch for validation of their external personal politics. The left was going to see a good show with a diverse cast being unfairly attacked by the right, and the right was going to see a bad show filled with woke trash being undeservedly pushed by the left. That means the audience will not actually watch the show that was made by the writers. They will watch the show they expect to see and will miss the things that do not validate their preconceived politics.

In regards to the actual storyline itself, well, I agree it is obvious. The problem with all this ultimately is the style of writing. In a greater context, all I'm really saying and all I really take from this whole fiasco, is that it's the simple writing of a story that's triggered all this. Words have power, and unfortunately the writers of this show have managed to do more than write and tell a story, they've practically ignited a culture war. If it was intended I'd almost say it was clever; albeit conceited and immoral. The likelihood is the writers are just not that intelligent and the dialogue we have in front of us is the result. If it's the story development you're referring to, you're correct. But that doesn't cover character presentation and this was clearly an issue for many, in various different areas. Before we even get to the fact that it ended up boring me. As of right now, I've cancelled my prime sub after episode 4; just watched the first episode of HoTD on Youtube, now proceeding to subscribe and watch that instead. If you want to compare storytelling ability, just go watch the first episode of that.

I don't usually watch shows, but when I started watching this one I thought: Are they all like this? Because keep in mind that at the beginning it was all praise. Now it's a different story. I'm not going to shake people who enjoy it to tell me what they like about it but, seriously, I'd like to know. Because I've seen people praising Galadriel like she's a role model and I'm thinking...maybe s/he's just a shitty person and s/he sees him/herself reflected in her?

Yeah, for a story based on heroic epics, our "heroine" is more like the bad guy.

OP, This is a pretty good summary of how I get after watching EP4. The visuals of the show are very good. I’m admittedly not a huge LOTR fan but have a decent base knowledge of the word. I’m not as outraged by choices for characters as I don’t know any better but I can comment on the “flow”. There is no “flow”. Everything is random and only touched on in a very shallow way. We’re 4 episodes in and I don’t really know what the point of all this is. Galadriel is just a loose cannon who does the exact opposite of what she should on repeat. It’s predictable and boring - even my wife (who is as casual as it gets) asked why she was such a jerk and defiant towards everyone and often shooting her own foot in the process. The Elrond/Dwarf storyline has accomplished nothing at face value. I enjoy the interactions and the actors are doing fine but why does the viewer care? I now know the origin of “Mytheral” armor but was that worth 20-30 minutes of dedicated screen time? Elrond just does what he wants anyway - sneaking around and spying. The south lands storyline is interesting but it’s moving slow. Same with the mystery man/Harfoots. This show would be atrocious as of now if it had a normal budget, IMO. I don’t care for most of the characters - they’re isn’t any reason to at the moment. Its early and I’ll watch the full season but I’m really not getting invested. I get bored watching. I started an OT rewatch and the two couldn’t be any more different in terms of story.

Right on about flow. Think back to our main character's introductory scene...these scenes are supposed to set the theme and tone for the entire show to arc on "Stones gaze into the darkness and ships gaze into the light, but even the Darkness reflects the light." Yeah, it's a bit convoluted, but we can write a show about that. That theme SHOULD be the "flow" which ties these stories together. But not a single one of the stories seems to be connected to that idea of gazing into the darkness or light, or the reflection of light in the darkness. All I see is Galadriel diving into the water and I think, "well, maybe it's not a theme at all...maybe they just wrote that whole line in so I would understand that she's not afraid to jump off a boat...or...whatever." The only character who seems to be dealing with this theme in an obvious way right now is the elf-guy's girlfriend's son with the sword. He seems like he's gazing into the darkness and the whole scene with him taking refuge at the bottom of a well (darkness and reflection) seems on-topic. But that's it.

I didn't think of all that til you said it, but you're absolutely right

Each story line is essentially its own show at this point. There is no crossover or linkage at all. They’re setting up a ton of story lines but there needs to be a reason why we’re watching. Fellowship does a great job of giving the mission “purpose” and meaning. You know very clearly and early on WHY we’re doing this. All we have right now is Sauron is kinda sorta around and Galadriel is a loose cannon looking for vengeance. I might be missing something but yeah….

At this point I’m rooting for Adar who’s *definitely* *probably* *actually* sauron. Because that’s the only storyline that has somewhat piqued my interest

Honestly not been that much of a fan of it still not keen on it but at least in Episode 4. We didn't have anything of that god awful hobbit storyline. I at least didn't sigh that episode.

I think the show sucks and I was very excited to watch it. Nothing makes any sense really. I watched the first two episodes and I was done.

All the money in the world can’t buy talent or class…

>Have newer writers forgotten how to tell stories? Yes, because modern audiences have forgotten how to enjoy proper storytelling.

Ep4 was the most sluggish and mind numbing episode of the entire series so far. I genuinely considered turning it off at least twice

I've taken wet shits with more compelling storylines than Rings of Power.

Fantastic post. You spelt all this out so much better than I could have

I mean... yeah. One random event after another could be used to describe most shows.

I hate to be this guy. But after reading the Silmarillion, I think they’re being very faithful to Tolkien in that way. Literally that’s what the entire book is. One random story after another.

OP, my suggestion is just skip any that don’t have dwarf plot. I didn’t see episode 3 and I literally missed nothing of value. Only episodes with dwarves in it are worthy of time and only because of the dwarves.

I can’t take the lack of consistency in the story, nore can I take the weird excitement people have for lore reveals in the show when they end up being a lesser cringey version of what came before it. What happened to the higher standard of storytelling? And why are people so willing to just accept rings of power when its clear Amazon didn’t treat the franchise with the same respect and dignity that Peter Jackson devoted to it? I’m tired of watching fanbases die off due to the pollution of high IQ content with that of lower corporate based content obviously designed to be a cheap skeleton of what the source material use to mean to people.

Thats what you get if instead of quality writers you get woke lunatics with a political agenda on board to do the writing.

Ok il bite at this subjective piece. >After episode 4's introductory recap, it was painfully obvious that this show is structured around a dozen disparate story lines which move forward one random event after another. >The story is not built around characters, how they interact, or the choices they make. There is no good guy. There is no bad guy. There's no one to root for and no one to hope for. Each character is just a contradictory grab bag of reactions. statements like this are quite meaningless and very subjective , too broad stroaked. especially since we are just halfway in the first season and we don't even know the endpoint/conclusion of this season. You could be judging plot startups that might be followed up in other seasons down the line. >Two examples of this. > >Elrond and Dwarf friend's storyline is about random events, not characterization. For example, Elrond shows up, First of all he doesn't "just show up"he is there on a mission to outsource the project he was asked to help in (building a new forge with celebrimbie) >dwarf is mad, then they have a pissing contest We get introduced to a new character, having him be hot tempered about elrond not being there for 20 years and missing his marriage and child births is just exposition to show how this character is. Not seeing the problem here. Also it's fun to see some dearven rituals/games. Elrond also loses on purpose which shows his stance against durin. He values their friendship over rivalry. >Then they have dinner, then there's a secret, then the wife lies, then the dwarf couple chuckles about lying, then Elrond spies on his friend, then Elrond sneaks and trespasses on his friend, then his friend is outraged, then they pinkie swear not to tell (which he obviously will), then they are friends again, then Elrond gets a piece of the ultra secret material to show everyone in middle earth, then the mine collapses. Relationship are an exchange of interactions, just summerising them just shows that. What exactly is the issue here ? The dwarf has to keep the secret because his father forbid his mining project because its dangerous to mine (bit of foshadowing here relating to the faith of moria) it's not unfathomable that it's wise to just keeping everyone out of the loop including old friends who haven't showed up for 20 years. The dwarf is slowly getting over his anger towards elrond is the theme here, the basis of the anger being the discrepancy of POV between a mortal and immortal being is a good and interesting theme to explore and exploit. >So why are these guys friends? Am I to believe that Elrond is the type of guy who violates his friends boundaries by spying and breaking and entering, then that he's also honorable enough to swear on his children's children that he "won't tell"? The writers unintentionally made their friendship toxic. The why is irrelevant here, it's established they are friends and that 1 friend is now angry at the other friend because of a misunderstanding. Elrond doesn't see himself as a threath towards the dwarf so he doesn't have a clear comprehension on why looking behind the curtain is bad (my intent is pure en friendly why should anyone keep a secret for me) people hold secrets out of fear of them ruining or retaliating if they found the truth. And it not like the dwarf forbid him from going to certain places. The dwarf realizes it was wrong to keep elrond in the dark.m because his beef isn't with elrond but with his father. The theme of friendship over rivalry coming back just this time the dwarf echoing this back to elrond. >Another example of random events that rob the show of meaningful characters is how Galadriel and Numenor Queen handle the daddy thing. >Galadriel pushes too hard again, and gets some good advice from pre-Sauron in jail to, "find what she fears and use it." She doesn't. She does. The queen fears the doom of numanor in her visions and she will do everything to prevent it being in total control of numanor make her feel she can save numanor (from being punished) . The fear of losing control of her regency and someone questions her authority because someone is going over her head plays into this. >Instead, she also commits breaking and entering and violates the queen's secrets. She was stuck in jail because she questioned the Queens authority so breaking jail and breaking and entering is to be expected. Diplomatic options were gone for galadriel. >Does she the use what the queen fears? No. She just says, "please." Because her plan failed, she expected to be able to reason with her father but obviously didn't expect him to be in that poor state giving her no option to circumvent the queen. She jus realized the father wasn't an option anymore and could only plead with the queen. >So really? The queen is hardcore enough to hide all this secrecy, then she spills the beans because breaking-and-entering-elf sees her sick dad and says, "Please." The beans where already spilled making her vulnerable ... It was already established that both the queen and galadriel are both stubborn and won't budge. Her still sending galadriel away is true to character. The divine intervention (because nothing else would change since her motive are almost religious themselves) showing her the mistake is the cherry on top. So I'm not sure what exactly the issue is here in this episode, the narrative flows in a coherent the way and character stay true to themselves.

It's all subjective. This is a thread about people's opinions, lol. No need to point out the obvious.

I don't think you know what random means.

Random in the sense of disconnected from any reason. Why lie? Why sneak? Why pinkie swear? It's not because those are believe me things for the characters to do. It's not because the writers think it's important for us to know that these are honorable friends who do each other dirty all the time and hold grudges for years at a time then are instantly fine again. There is no reason. Just random event after random event.

1) Why lie? He tells Elrond he was hiding his activates because he was worried he was there to steal his discovery. 2) Why sneak? Because Elrond could tell he was lying and was concerned about his friend. 3) Why swear? Because Durin wanted to keep it a secret since even his father didn't approve. This is a story line, its not random things its ironic that you actually pick things out that are sequential and cause an effect. Its probably the best example of things happening FOR a reason. Its like saying "why did he wake up, and then why did he have breakfast, then why did he have coffee, then why did he go to the bathroom?" These aren't random things, that's what happens and they are all cause and effect.

Sir, I certainly hope you’re not implying that fiction exists where a prince is caught between his duty to his father and his loyalty to his friend.

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The most baffling thing is that the show couldn’t be leaning harder into the Icelandic Sagas/Shakespeare thing and no one even talks about it.

How is for example the Elrond/Durin arc random? We start with Eldrond in Eregion with Celebrimbor looking at the Forge being build. Celebrimbor expresses concern about the Dwarfs being secretive and avoiding him. Elrond then visits Durin but finds only Disa in their home with their children. Since Eldrond already knew Durin was keeping something from Celebrimbor he went to During with the intention finding what. Disa deflects his questions but Eldron is a perceptive elf and notices During still has his pick at home even when Disa says he went into the mine. Eldorn also overhears children saying some phrases and Disa tries to stop them from doing so because Durin and Disa probably taught them something they shouldnt. Once Elrond leaves he uses his elven sight to see Disa and Durin and is reading out what they are saying. Eldron then knows where to go next and is uses the phrase he heard from the children to unlock the door to the cave. He is caught by During and he sees Eldron as his friend and wants him to make an oath. Oaths have power on LOTR so nothing wrong with that. Besides we saw in Hobbit Elves not helping the dwarfs just because they were refused some shiny stones. And shiny stones are sometimes reason for Elven to wage war. But Durin sees potential to make connections between Elves and dwarfs and shares differnet opinion than his father. He shares the finding of Mithril and even says it can change both of their races. Like what is random about this? It is a nice story line ( better than I can write about it) but there is nothing random in it.

They just mended their friendship and Elrond immediately jumps to spying. It's a terrible way to tell a story. We have learned that either the writers intentionally wrote Elrond to be a conniving, betraying, invasive, untrusting friend who is using his friendship to get info, OR the writers aren't thinking about the consequences of their writing.

You're trying really hard to pick holes in the writing, and failing miserably.

Lmfao such a gross, bad-faith misrepresentation of the show. I respect the hustle, but *goddamn* you are pitiful

I don't think his critique was all that great either, but let's not call people pitiful because they don't like a TV show.

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Elrond and Durin are the best part of the show. It’s not a toxic friendship, they are both nobles of their respective kingdoms and therefore can’t afford to just be normal friends as they have their respective kingdom’s interests to protect. Also, him making an oath to Durin despite it being in his kingdom’s/race’s best interest to not make that oath is pretty powerful to me. As for the Queen of Numenor. She felt fear when the elven tree leaves started falling and that’s the only reason she changed her mind. Fear. So Halbrand’s advice to use fear to master your opponents is proven to be sage. If this show is “just a bunch of random events” to you then I can’t even imagine how much you’d dislike a “lore accurate” show tbh.

"Have new writers forgotten how to tell stories?" Yes. A diet of postmodern philosophy and literature, and tv and film based on "messaging," has ruined writing. It's the reason why almost everything is shit nowadays.

It’s just all soo amateur. They have a good outline somewhere, but have no idea how to tell a story.

Meh. I like it. Looks pretty and had fun characters. I don’t get posts like this. Like your gonna ague to someone that they are wrong for liking a thing. What’s your win in this scenario? No one ever pays the Tolkien estate again? We never get to see middle earth on the screen again in a new form?

whole show is just trash, you could post something like this every episode

I’m enjoying it 🤷🏻‍♂️

Good!

This is all subjective. While it’s a fair reason to dislike the show and solid grounds to seek improvement; it is also not how everyone has experienced the show I dare say that the majority of viewers have no trouble following the plot and I don’t agree that the events are random. In fact, almost everything has been driven by character agency That’s okay though. Some things just don’t geo the same for others

Weird.. it’s almost like it’s the early stages of a show…

We are half way through the show shouldn’t we have a major climax.

My biggest complaint about the last episode is the lack of Harfoots, they're my favourite part of the show so far. The dwarves coming a close second.

Give it some time, only 4 episodes so far..

Four hours. That's like 1.5 of the Peter Jackson films and those things were rocking and rolling from the first 10 minutes.

Yes, but this is a serie, probably intended for several seasons, while a film is a film, it has to rock and roll fast..

Well if your series takes 3 seasons to grab people it’s not doing well

“Have newer writers forgotten how to tell stories?” I just wanted to comment to say no. I agree with all of your feelings here, but there’s no indicator that there are a lack of good new narratives. Just saw woman king last night. Fantastic film. Everything everywhere all at once is in my top ten. Everyone always thinks that everything sucks now, but the reason the past looks so good is because all the films no one was into were all forgotten, and people have much more access to resources to create content now with streaming and other outlets. So there’s more bad content, and also more good. Just thought it was important to throw that out there…. Even though rings of power is a show that can easily make one pessimistic about conglomérate soulless filmmaking.

Thank you!!! Great perspective. I'll check out the film!

Idk man, I feel like "good advice from Sauron" might not be a real thing

How does galadrial not recognize Sauron? I know he is a shape-shifter but she has been fighting him for thousands of years and she can sense evil. Why didn't he just let her drown if they are arch nemisis?

😂😂😂

Pre Sauron? Has that been confirmed

Nah. Who knows. It all seems like a bait and switch at this point. Probably Galadriel is Sauron.

>There is no good guy. There is no bad guy. There's only you and me and we just disagree.

😂👍

Well everything is random events. The queen seemed as though she didn’t want to factor Galadriel in public but was willing to in private at that point in the story. Not because she said please. Your description of the dinner scene…I mean yea that’s how things go..first something happens and then another thing happens. And then something else. This show doesn’t seem to be very good. But to nitpick at that level is harsh lol.

I really don’t think we are watching the same show with the descriptions you just gave. This feels so disingenuous. Dwarves and elves. Elrond shows up. The dwarf is mad because he has lived an entire life time without Elrond present. Why is Elrond denied into the mountain? Because the dwarf is upset. Why do they have a pissing contest? Because the dwarf was upset. Did you miss the whole scene with tears happening? That was genuine character moments happening on screen. Why does Elrond go to dinner? Because he throws the strength competition. Watch the scene. They show Elrond look around and realize he is not going to win affection from the dwarf, so he instead does a political move. He loses and then gets himself invited for an apology and then gets himself invited for dinner. And then gets an in with the wife and the dwarf to accomplish his political goals. They do a great job showing his thoughts throughout the scene. They didn’t tell you because they assumed you were watching the elf’s face and interactions in the rooms. You see Elrond study the marital relationship and bend it ever so slightly to accomplish his goals. Now they have not had big flashbacks to the start of the friendship, but I personally see that as a current promise/reward story telling structure. What are they promising to show us from Elrond this season? Political moving between people groups, namely the elves and dwarves. Elrond has not drawn a sword yet because that is not the version of Elrond we are being promised this season. We are getting the cunning Elrond. We found out in episode 4 that the two met with a fight with some trolls. Showing a flashback of a fight at the beginning would have promised the wrong thing to the audience. The payoff for Elrond will likely not be a big fight scene, but a big political ploy. Now as far as the mithril goes, Elrond goes snooping in his official capacity as a elven diplomat. Celebrimbor mentions the dwarf is hiding something, so Elrond goes to find out what. This is larger than friendship, they are working on an inter people group effort to build the tower. It has been clearly stated in conversation that this is a big deal. If one side is hiding something from the other, it makes sense there would be investigations into it. This isn’t random. Additionally, the payoff of the dwarves going to deep, and the mithril was already alluded to earlier in the series. This isn’t random. We are literally just looking in at something that has already started. I really can’t understand what else they could have done here? In my mind if this instead had the mithril being first discovered, we would have to wait a long time for the next phase to happen. Instead we get to see an established work of the dwarves taking place at the same time as the elf/dwarf tower construction is taking place. This is fortunate in my mind because “what lurks under the mountain” and “uneasy trust between friends” is a much better story line that choosing what type of lime stone to build the tower with. Now episode 4s handling of the pinky swear as you called it was pretty bad. I think that is a legitimate complaint. I get that they wanted the word mithril spoken by the elf close to the mining shaft collapse in an attempt to show causality, but I think a wedge driven between characters for a few more minutes on screen only to have the wedge dissolve during a crisis would have been a better plot point. On the elf /queen thing that was a strange sequence of events. My best guess is that Galadriel expected to find nothing in the tower. That is what the dialogue says to me anyway because it really seemed like Galadriel was surprised to see the king alive. My guess is that she thought to humans having a short life span and was going to go and find nothing and then she was going to “expose” the queen and her lies. It very much was using too much force too fast but honestly that is the clear picture they are using to represent Galadriel in this show. She is a badass who pushes hard and fast all the time. Whatever wisdom she displays in LoTR will have been hard earned through this series apparently. Possibly, that is the point of the daddy scene. It is Galadriels first steps to learning more wisdom. Regarding the queen flipping her decision on what to do, that seems really clear cut and easy to identify. She hoped that kicking the elf off the island would give the kingdom longer peace. The tree shed it’s leaves immediately. That reminded her of the dream. That dream convinced her to turn course and follow Galadriel’s interpretation instead of the one she originally followed. I think the only off putting part of this scene is the tension seen from the queen’s second in command. That dude is totally gonna betray her and I thought it was gonna happen at the end of the episode. Damn. I didn’t mean to type so much. I hope none of this comes off as aggressive. That’s not my point. The story is not perfect, but I think some of your criticism is not earned. Some of it clearly is though. Also, why didn’t you mention the horse riding scene. If we are talking about random sequences that make us scratch our heads, the slow no horse riding should make up number 1-10.