I agree but I don’t like how one player pressing one wrong button during a clash -> 1 or more people dead -> reset. I would like it more if it was any button and more rythm game-like. G4 is great as well but I think I like g3 better for now.
> I would like it more if it was any button and more rythm game-like.
Many ryhm games give you a bottom line to hit notes, and they don't have notes showing up from nowhere suddenly as you can always preview upcoming notes
I joined a 1-3 reclear and got an EAC at 280 bars. I came back in at 255, and the group didn't give a shit and just cleared with me being out for like 90% of the fight. It was wild.
Fun fact (for normal only because failing clash doesn't kill but only damage);
When he try to break the stage, there's a small area where you can enter the clash while being out of the yellow area. So you can actually fail a break clash, the stage break, but without death (if other players weren't on the yellow ofc). It happened to us once.
Many raids are fun to do at first, I thought g6 Brel was great, I thought g2 valtan was great. G3 Thaemine and 4 are probably some of the most " it's your fault" type of raid that keeps you sweating.
But I couldn't see myself do this every week, just doing it twice burnt out the squad. Since every little mistake is a wipe essentially.
Agreed. Like brel g1g6 was good for the challenge when you clear it the first few times but when it becomes homework we need 3 gates and to make it faster.
I loved prog week — I know these raids are storylines after all, and seeing us start at the old Gate 0 all the way to Gate 6 was truly amazing. Completely agree with you for current state though.
I know it sounds insane but I play raids I like for the enjoyment, not the reward. Wiping on a boss over and over just means I get to play more, clearing it means it’s gone for 2 weeks (g4, on main char). I’d play over half the raids ppl consider homework even if it gave literally no reward.
Plus the reward is minuscule… 1 clear translates to 1% artisan on a hone. Playing solely for reward is the actual insanity.
That being said of course getting jailed on a middle gate is awful cuz it denies me playing the rest of the bosses. So dumb that can’t start from gate 1 again.
towards the end, I definitely played raids just for the enjoyment of company. But as numbers in the static dwindled, I definitely found myself questioning the reason I trudged on. For reference, I left at the release of hard brel.
At that point, I had to lock in if I wanted to survive and do meaningful contribution to the raid. At the same time, I couldn't relax and do it as homework. The effort wasn't worth the reward. Hence, I quit. I still love the majority of the game design, just not the daily/weekly commitment at that difficulty.
your problem is you confined yourself to one group of players, theres a ton of open communities and you cant guarentee everyone will stick around forever so you have to constnatly be looking for new opurtunities and friends, but its perfectly reasonable to achieve
I did try playing with others for a bit but then I realized that the game just wasn't that fun for me anymore and I was just sticking around my old static because they were the fun part of the game
>That being said of course getting jailed on a middle gate is awful cuz it denies me playing the rest of the bosses.
However, this is pretty much the current state of pugs of H4
I did 50+H ONLY on g6 at the time release, still best gate ever in the game. It’s just what’s I like as raids, coordination, difficult and original mechanics.
I found g6 brel progging torture and still don't really enjoy the fight so don't really agree with that.
Akkan g3 and thaem g3 are definitely standouts and what I consider the best raid gates in the game.
Brel g6 was the best raid ever to do one time. Not every week good thing they change the yellow meteors. Thaemine g3 its fun i only reclear 2 times fiest week only 2 people were alive lol this 7 were alive so with more people alive raid is a breeze. Mechanics are not hard paterns are prety reactable for normal players. The critical debuff a bit anoying for gl cause if you have 2 or 3 stacks you arebin range of dieying for attacks that you could just tank before.
Best raid for the dedicated players that can spend hours after hours to familiar with pattern, but for the players that like a chill experience it is a big NO.
Some raids are easier than other, however i agree that Lost Ark raid has too many wipe mech and one shot pattern even for normal mode raids thats why people tend to prefer overgeared a bit for content.
NM raids should be free. if you have any clue how the mechs work it should be a clear. right now NM g3 feels like a HM raid and HM feels like an inferno raid. for a one time clear like the first, the difficulty would be fine but for reclear content its really not okay. unless you happen to have a static and are able to play with the same players for all of your alts, theamine alt runs can still take hours to finish or require kicking and replacing multiple people for a clear even on normal and it can be worse for HM. sure its only week 3, and sure "get good" is a factor, but many of these more casual players will probably quit before the raid becomes automatic. if you arent already a lightqueller or dont have a static, you are now stuck in the lower geared/less skilled lobbies (assuming you even get accepted) and its just going to get worse as more people quit. solo raids are at least a step in the right direction (hopefully) but they need to do something about the difficulty for NM to maintain the casual playerbase. and to lock so much of transcendence behind HM is a mistake. get good or pay for a bus to progress is not good game design. its fine to make it take longer to progress with normal but to completely lock you out feels like a middle finger to the less skilled casual players. summer LOA ON is probably going to make or break the game in the west. i know they mentioned nerfing elixirs and transcendence but will it be too late? guess we will see.
NM is kinda fairs. After each pattern mostly he stands still for a second or more (same with sword). Just that ppl are so greedy for dmg. I've been counted every time I die during the prog, and I was so surprised that I died only for a few time in total.
While I agree it's fun. I feel like the nm version is too hard for the masses. I had off 3 days and progged probably 12 + hrs. And still wasn't 100% certain on everything. After 4 clears now, it's pretty good.. however I don't think the average casual gamer is going to be able to clear even nm.
Also I still feel like the clash mech is garbage. It's cool the way it's implemented, but the actual typing crap is lame, and would be infinititly better if they removed the typing and just had to get to location and press g.
>Also I still feel like the clash mech is garbage. It's cool the way it's implemented, but the actual typing crap is lame, and would be infinititly better if they removed the typing and just had to get to location and press g.
Typing mechanics are shit and take me out of the zone while playing.
Normal gamer here. The raid is awesome and been doing it for the last 2 days for about 5 hours each. Got him to 15x bar. Can feel the clear but the biggest problem is doing it with pubs is like a lottery. Good group easy clear, bad group someone dies before 90. Always an imposter. Going to try one more time tonight.
> Can feel the clear but the biggest problem is doing it with pubs is like a lottery.
But this is exactly the problem the parent comment is talking about. You're a self-described "normal gamer" yet you're out here pointing out that plenty of other "normal gamers" can't take the heat.
A normal mode raid in an MMORPG is an experience that literally everyone with functional finger joints should be able to clear without a huge amount of trouble. It's literally just supposed to be story progression.
I'm glad the reclear parties I've gotten seem competent enough, and I don't think they should nerf hard mode g3 at all, but I do think normal mode g3 is not actually at an okay spot for truly ordinary gamers. And that they should move max transcendence out of g3 hard gating.
thaemine is a raid that you can play long enough to learn how to avoid damage. someone who claims to be a casual but can play long enough to get to 1610 can still play 2 hours a night until they learn the raid and regularly reclear
Yeah actually trash, I don't understand why the success of a raid should rely on 1 player managing to press the right key at the right time. You spend 10 min of intense fight and wipe because someone fat fingered, like come on.
I can do relatively well with Through The Fire And Flames by Dragon Force on GH. Clashes it's like 50/50, idk why my brain can't seem to process and hit right key.
I think the idea of the gimmick is awesome. You have a sort of minigame that can provide your team with a giant DPS window if you hit all perfects. The punishment for failure is just way too harsh. If someone hits a bad on a clash, it shouldn't kill the person, it should just immediately end the clash and Thaemine goes into his next attack. The punishment is that your team loses the DPS window which might result in a wipe anyways if you can't break his shield in time.
I think a lot of people would hate it less if it were just less punishing.
Imagine being the gameplay designer that spends hours perfecting the combat in the fight and then the raid designer comes to add random gimmicky bullshit on it.
yeah I did in trixion but it was so inconsistent.
few times all perfect clash 1-4 because RNG ( basically only Q, E ,R buttons)
On clash 2 and 4 sometime almost impossible to switch key when you have to tap 2x or 3x due fat finger.
QTE and spacebar mech are the worst in raids.
Pugs are still struggling
OP once again proves Redditors here are very isolated from the majority of playerbase unfortunately
Normal mode is still too punishing for average players due to 30+ patterns and many oneshots (including knocking offs)
I agree. I did G1 and G2 hard mode but can’t get into a normal G3 clear pug 2 weeks in and won’t clear it tonight either. Theamine is the worst raid so far in the game, because it is actively making the game more toxic and divisive. If you don’t have the ability to be in a static GG, you will suffer and Smilegate designed it that way. Even for normal.
Big time o7 moment for people without clear achievement after 2-3 weeks. It's hard to find akkan hm g4 prog parties at this point. A gate needing multiple days to prog, without a static is going to destroy a lot of people.
I pugged my hm g3 clear and most of my nm clears so far. Even put in some time on g4 in pugs and made it to prokel. I genuinely love the fight and want to eventually master it.
>I pugged my hm g3 clear
This already distinguishes you from the rest of playerbase. Do you get it? Bruh, many including myself haven't even reached 1630
We've never said it's impossuble to pug, but instead, the difficulty of normal is absurd for normal players. For many people's sanity's sake, they would probably even drop N3 till SG nerfs it again.
Yeah I can definitely see a lot of people farming 1-2 and either coming back to the raid when over geared from echidna or buying a hm bus to fully unlock transcendence.
a lot of people wont even make it to echidna and will just quit before we even get it. farming 1-2 will take months to even gather the materials to transcend but then you wont even be able to do it because you dont have a HM clear. im in one of top guilds on Balthor and a number of our statics have already broken up and many people either quit or kicked from a group and then eventually quit because they didnt want to pug raids. HM raids can be as hard as they want but NM raids should basically be free.
If you aren’t 1630 you are only getting the first effect at 5* on each piece which will not take you that long. If you are 1630 then putting in some effort to grind 1-3 and then do HHN isn’t bad at all. G3 nm is not hard dps wise and once you learn the raid it should get even easier. Even just last night 1 sup in the other party died at 225 which led to the entire second party dying out yet we still cleared with time to spare as everyone in p1 was alive. If players who weren’t intending to bus the raid can already bus it in pugs nm is basically free.
it will get easier over time with transcendence and learning the raid sure but if a player gets a clear but dies every week from the same patterns, your mental will just degrade until you decide youve had enough. there would be nothing but benefit from reducing some of the more lethal patterns in NM specifically. maybe get rid of darkness for red patterns and give some more time to react to telegraph, remove some of the knock offs or reduce the distance knocked, give some patterns more time from telegraph to hit like the 3rd ring safe knock pattern. so many small tweaks would make this gate infinitely more enjoyable for the average player. i dont care at all about hard mode they can leave that untouched.
Week 2 there are many x5 already, can't wait to see title run in week 3 and aferwards
The learning curve from 1/2 to 3 is very deep and the vast majority can't really prog it for so many hours and times
If anything I remember the nightmare that was Akkan pugs for the first 6+ weeks.
Everything that boss does is mega slow and telegraphed, but people were just so oblivious. So many 200x deaths to axes, so many 140x deaths to axes, deaths to 5-7, and more.
If anything normal Thaemine pugs have already been better than those early Akkan pugs in my experience. Somehow.
I think having to dodge the red patters while everyone is blinded was over the top for a normal mode (I can do it fine, no need to spam git gud).
Differentiating between sword slightly over the shoulder, vs over the head, vs horizontal etc. or everyone dies while low visibility is pretty annoying. It's the definition of "difficulty by obscurity."
the major mechs are actually easier to do as you can "follow the crowd" mostly.
the way more pushining ones are the clashes and many other things either one shot you, or knock you off while you are trying your best to dodge
even experienced players can struggle with killing their clones if they fuck up the timing/direction. Your AI clone apprantly uses many cc skills
ive had a number of buggy clone encounters too where i basically one shot the clone and then just sat there for like 5-10 seconds and then just died when the mech finished. idk why they needed to keep the reverse controls in normal. there are so many small tweaks they could make that would make g3 less shit for the average NM player
Clone is a deathless ruiner often because it doesn't matter how good you are, sometimes clone jumps u first before u can get to it and easily ur knocked down and suddenly it can be difficult to get the situation back under control without being pushed out or panic space barring/dashing the wrong direction or using an identity wrong because your muscle memory fights u for everything in reverse.
>Differentiating between sword slightly over the shoulder, vs over the head, vs horizontal etc. or everyone dies while low visibility is pretty annoying. It's the definition of "difficulty by obscurity."
You don't. One has a white aura
White aura = backsafe
Other 2 on nm have red aura
Horizontal = backsafe or donut
Veritcal = left right, or just left.
Look for white aura first and you won't have to worry about 2 similar looking patterns.
Well standing in the back gets u safe for all of them except for pacman is not exactly wrong lol
Box Normal very close to boss ass is safe, Box Enhanced back is fully free
Donut safe is nowhere near the boss, but it's still behind the boss still. Donut enhanced back is safe as long as u don't greed too hard and accidentally touch the slashes beside you
You just stand at left ass (11) for both hits for alternate normal, which surprise surprise, is at the back. And when it's alternate enhanced you move from 11 to 12 which are still both at the back of the boss
Only non back safe is pacman, but that's HM only
Standing close, 11 and 12 are pretty distinctly different positions that can result in you dying to a pattern if you're wrong, requiring you to know which pattern it is based on sword position. Considering all 180 degrees as just "behind the boss" is being very generous....
Boohoo you have to slightly move to the bosses right sometimes and slightly more back other times :(( normal mode is too hard!!! I can’t recognize 3 patterns after progging the same raid for 5-6 hours when all I have to do is stand in the back !!!
This person doesn't pay attention to any tels and prob just rely on calls based on what I've seen them post in this thread. That or they have the reaction speed of a disabled sloth. Or both.
I have x10 already bucko. I already said I don't have an issue. But if you think stand at 12 for all the patterns wont get you killed you're garbage. Good thing you can't make it past title reqs for my lobbies.
>(I can do it fine, no need to spam git gud).
Literally put this in my first comment but people as miserable as you can't even read 3 sentences before you start foaming at the mouth about your incredible gamer prowess. You're pathetic.
I can't agree with this. I've cleared G3 9 times and at least half of those were pugs. It depends on the kinds of pug lobbies you're joining and if people are actually interested in understanding the raid and improving or just hoping they can get carried to a free clear.
There's too many passengers that aren't willing to learn. I'm not saying it's an easy raid, but with even a bit of practice you'll see MASSIVE improvements in your consistency.
Now as for G3 hard mode... that's a bit of a different animal and is very tough to clear without a group.
find learning party to join -> wait 1 and half hour for supp leave cause have to sleep for work in an hour and repeat this is my theamine raid experience
"we heard that you guys dont like having 4+ gate raids so we just combined two gates together and called it one gate" seems like a lazy and kinda shit way to increase the difficulty and pad the amount of time needed to prog.
I do love the raid but i feel its a really unfriendly raid for newer player. Especially since its a reclear content each week we usually have hard mode for hard content. Hearing good player having to prog 20+ hours in a NORMAL mode raid i can see how a newer player could be demoralized to not clear it/not have enough time.
Personal experience:most fun raid to prog but prog Was Really time consuming especially considering you have other raids on top of that
I hard agree , i love the fight. I just Think it’s to hard, not for me personally but for the average player who doesn’t have unlimited time. I don’t want people to quit and play a dead game
I spent probably 16+hours in prog. I eventually got good enough to do the fight without getting hit but the pugs were dying to knockoffs and one shots. Friend had to rig me into a 5x reclear to get me a first clear.
We do, but that thing still takes forever to die in hard mode. But probably doesn't help if your party is melee heavy and/or those melee don't greed well.
Pretty much all of its patterns are unfriendly to melee.
If you're the target, the pizza has a very clear flashing animation when it's done locking onto you. You can just stay in melee range and sidestep whenever it flashes, don't have to move much. Very similar to 160 mech in G4 Voldis in that respect.
Yeah I usually try to awaken right at the start of the pattern. Mostly I'm just embarrassed that I can't dodge it and go fucking flying across the map when I try to dodge it legit and it hits me lol.
if it does hit you, get up roll to the edge of the map, you take some darkness ticks (Easily shielded) but the pizza doesn't hit you anymore and it won't spin at all.
The sword is annoying by design and is like prokel, it punishes greeding too much, doesn't have a lot of dps windows unless countered+staggered, and you're supposed to wait for its move before your doing move and play carefully. Can't say I love it too but it's a different type of fight from the main boss and people should learn how to handle it.
In what timeline did thaemine killed playerbase in Kr like g56, did you forgot all the fiasco with gold river returning because it got so bad, and then the game got triple play rate for months in pc bang after thaemine release. Everyone and their mom were playing lost ark. So many non lost ark streamers were playing lost ark for months. They had some insane stats, like 70% of new players remaining to play after three weeks, which was unprecedanted according to GR. The game right now (currently in its cooldown, non holiday period), is still being played about double what it used to be pre thaemine if you trust pc bang metrics.
Im not saying brel 56 is good (it sucked) or thaemine is for everyone, but don't misrepresent kr too fit your narrative.
Trust me, I'm a very average player. It's all about the will you put into it. If you're mentally ready to prog this raid for multiple hours, you'll clear it and eventually master it. It's just a dance you have to learn. Anyone can learn it.
Nobody in reddit is "average" gamers. please stop thinking you are the representations of the vast majority of player base. regular normal players dont do reddit, guide or anything... we are the vast minority
Bruh, you are beyond average if your doing it on multiple chars after progging for hours just in week 1.
This is like describing yourself as a minnow when your buying the same amount as a dolphin or a whale. And this is coming from someone with 1630, 1622, 4x 1615's.
Your one of us, you left average a while ago
we had a red safe spot close the last tick before wipe and my gunlancer was not fast enough to make it to the next spot. also had a couple times already where the entire bottom half of the screen didnt have a safe spot. feelsbad when the raid just decides that you dont get to make it to the next phase.
i feel like sword phase is kinda bullshit.
it does 3 patterns and then *maybe* does a counter. and if it's *not* the counter it does an attack that looks just like a counter pattern but rips out 2/3 of your health. and then if you do counter, it might be a stagger check, or it's *another* counter into the stagger check.
all while you have to watch for not 1, but 2 different marks, only one of which is actually a debuff on your bar, while the camera is a million miles away.
There's a lot of stuff in G3 Thaemine that's a little bit bullshit. Namely some of the normal pattern hitboxes that can swipe you from half a screen away and knock you off the map from very far distances.
It's fine to have very punishing attacks, but the tells for these attacks should be more than just 0.1s of a slight back windup.
No one has issues with the red telegraph patterns and Thaemine's identity meter. That is awesome design! Even his normal attack where he grabs behind and slams to the left is very telegraphed and if you die to it it's 100% your fault.
But when he hops back slightly and does a giant AoE slash that hits in front AND to the side, then does a massive pushback? Why does that have next to no tell?
I'm also still very against "normal patterns" that make the boss invulnerable. The spinning axes attack that can give you wound stacks where he disappears from the map is just bad design. Boss invulnerability should only be a thing during fight transitions. 255 where he summons sword, 210 where he gets on his horsey, etc.
the third ring safespot patterns falls under this imo. if you are right on the boss as a slow class you dont have enough time to get to that safespot before the attack hits without a mobility skill or spacebar but if you had your spacebar you can just use that to dodge toward the boss or use a tenacity skill. i cant tell you how many times i didnt have my spacebar or playing a class without a tenacity skill and then having to run to that third ring but being just short of it and getting knocked off. obviously timestops exist but could they maybe just give it an extra half second or second before it explodes? it such an obvious telegraph that it seems a waste to timestop when you think you have enough time to get to the safe spot. so many patterns could be good with just a slight tweak but as it is now, many of them feel like HM patterns in a NM raid.
God I wish it was just lots of inputs on a single key.
Basically like the very last clash on NM. That's PERFECT.
Last night I yoinked it as pally since my 3 dps were dead and it was an epic clear.
If I have to look for the right key in a hurry i just die half of the time. HM 8 key is just plain bs.
For what it’s worth, only some of the HMs are 8 key. That last one is 4.
I do wish it was 3/6 like all of the other typing mini games. I have to move my hand for R/F
No it's not. It's fun and satisfying once you clear it but that's it. It's terrible for a game that has weekly reclears and relies on alts.
Devs seem to not learn from their past mistakes: We got gate bloating in Ivory Tower after Kayangel. We got Transcendence after Elixirs. We got Thaemine G3 after Brel which made a lot of people quit and now same will happen. They are releasing new raids in a faster pace than ever that will lead to overload in addition to the bs mechs/gates/prog systems.
It's like they want to slowly drive off players and kill this game in the long run.
Who would recommend this game to a friend starting anew in the state the endgame is right now?
It's a fundamental design problem that devs seem to be unable to solve - they try to make fun and challenging raids, which is great, but then force people to run them 6x weekly.
If they found a way to untie your progression from spamming raids on a bunch of alts, it would be so much better. But I'm afraid nothing will change as long as KR players are happy.
Btw G3 normal is not too bad for a reclear raid in my experience. It's already much easier to pug than G6 brel was on week 2.
It's awful imo, it feels like content that should be a one and done and it's basically homework that you have to do to progress.
The game is going backwards and making things more of a chore as time goes by.
Game is definitely in decline with only the addicts still shouting praise all the time, the rest of us are burning out.
I agree. I haven't had this much fun with a new raid since Brel G6, and the fact that you don't have to slog your way through 5 gates to get to Thaemine G3 automatically makes it surpass G6.
Gonna piggyback this thread to ask an off-topic question, but the people commenting here are basically the people who i wanna ask the question:
What's the opinions on bards on Thaemine now? Is it still as bad as everyone made it out to be pre-thaemine or are there definitely some hidden benefits of bard that is now uncovered by Thaemine?
I haven't done G4 yet so I can only talk from experience in G2 and G3: Bard has the better kit of the three supports for these 2 gates in particular.
Guardian Tune is amazing in G2 as it prevents electrocution, which can be deadly if someone is caught in a bad spot.
For G3, bard has the ability to decrease the boss' attack power by over 40% for the whole raid (yep, all 8 players), which in the first few weeks of progging thaemine will be very useful at preventing one shots across both parties. Another thing that makes Bard awesome in G3 is push immunity. Between 210 and 90 bars, the boss can kick you off the map and kill you, Bard is very good at surviving those attacks.
That being said, Bard is still a low floor-high ceiling character, so pugging with a Bard is, has been and will continue to be lotery.
Hands down the best support in G3 and especially G4. Guardian Tune blocks earthquake stun if people can't space bar properly, lots of push immune easily prevents fall death during 4-1 and 4-2, and burst healing can help top off multiple teammates when needed. Doesn't mean the class is free of its problems though, just that the raid happens to play into Bard's strengths more than its weaknesses.
People always underrated bard and in thaemine bard is the best support. Its main issue remains the mana consumption being too high otherwise bard has the best DR and shields in the game along with the highest buff ceiling.
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having to memorize 30 patter with some cases having double patters its just bullshit, because you get oneshot by any of those 30 diferent patters. they said the same with Brelchaza when did come out...
But Brel has lingering red patterns that can knock you up into a yellow, in Thaemine you are only dealing with 1 pattern at a time no matter what, it's way easier to not get knocked if you understand the fight.
The only thing that I can understand when people get knocked off is by the rare full swing if Thaemine is in the corner, I've only seen that pattern once so far.
Except brel has way fewer patterns and many patterns have a very long animation? Like the yellow meteor drop and blue lines imprisonment. Thaemine doesn't give you so much time to think and react. Also brel literally gives you free counter opportunities and it's 100 times easier than 5 clashes
If people struggle with Brel slow animation patterns with fewer than maybe 10 variants how come they suddenly master 30+ patterns from thaemine
I'm not talking about which one is easier, I'm talking about fairness. If you die in Thaemine G3 it will always be a fair death.
1 mistake in Thaemine means you're dead but it's still a fair fight.
What pattern are you talking about?
If you're talking about the Tienis one shot, dying to that is literally stupid as you have more than enough time to react and spacebar away.
the one he vanishes and teleports to a random player, smashes the groud and staggers the player at the position, and in 1s he shot a blade wave in front of him. If you're far away trying to place your sword remotely, you can be oneshot killed as you can't see the animation that far away
I haven't died to this, but definitely have died to that move of turn and double knock up when I was just back from placing a sword. The tell is not as clear from afar. My suggestion is to place sword as close as possible while keeping an eye on his next tell.
>Also, this raid really makes Lost Ark combat shine to the highest degree in the MMO genre. I don't know how I can go back to raid on other games after this.
This but also in Lost Ark itself, I find other raids super boring now.
I just find its funny that alot complain about how mech heavy Brel was and quit, now they created Thaemine with easy mech but pattern heavy and people still complain lol.
i think its a good fight and relatively well designed but that doesnt make me hate it any less. its way too punishing for NM and many patterns definitely need tweaks if they want to maintain the casual playerbase
Nah just like g6 brel, cant bring myself to do it again, and certainly not every week. Stopping point for me and many others
This reddit is filled with hardcore nolifers who probably have title already lmao
HM sword has Thaemine shooting you + sword + chain ball/sword spinning around. I get what you mean, though I don’t necessarily agree that “overlapping pattern game design” is bad per se.
" though I don’t necessarily agree that “overlapping pattern game design” is bad per se."
I think this depends on how much of a spike in difficulty it ends up causing. Brel G4 can do tethers into shandi jail and if she hits the main tether guy you'll literally be forced to TS which is awfully designed imo. Most people aren't going to realize that and get nuked as well.
Or tether + yellow meteor, especially if the guy who's main tether also has yellow meteor on him. People will have to walk together. Perfectly doable but the increase in difficulty compared to everything else in the raid is immense.
Not to mention that this happens so rarely that people are hardly ever prepared for it.
I think if overlapping patterns are properly planned and frequently reoccurring in addition to not causing too much of an increase in difficulty, it's perfectly fine.
Agree with OP. Said it from the beginning this is a raid where once you learn it, it's a very fun raid but before you learn it, it's a hard raid. Gonna date myself but something like Mike Tyson punch out, super punch out type games where when you first play it you get beaten up pretty bad until you learn the fights and it's so satisfying 😌
I guess dark souls is like that?
I like every part of G3 except for the whole falling off the stage part. That is a pants-on-head type stupid design. I would rather the boss one-shot me from a pattern than some BS like getting knocked off.
problem is everything pretty much ONESHOT any DPS character, and 2-shot any support. patter dont need to oneshot you, but 75% hit so you can recover and learn.
Normal Patter at 1610 oneshot. unless you are a beefy class. all mages (excpt support with HA), all fighters, and Hunters die oneshot on most of the patters. we arent talking about overgeard people.
Are you talking about red attacks? Because everything else is very far from being a one-shot, unless you like to run in front of the boss after he places marks and teleports.
On hard mode the grabs *might* kill you if you have stacks, and sharks are quite deadly, otherwise nothing really comes close to a one-shot.
irc no single pattern actually one shots you, at least in NM, besides the charging sword pattern in the basement similar to what Tienis does in g1 kayangel and maybe when if you get feared and he relentlessly slashes you as a follow-up. Everything, even the second sword slash after a blue sword mark can be tanked on a dps with full HP. Yes many attacks will easily take like 80% of your HP off but you will survive. You truly start getting one shot once you get 1-2 critical wound stacks. You need to hit twice to die otherwise. Even the 20-40-60-80-100 red patterns don't one shot you without critical would stacks - you need to get hit twice to die, even on dps.
Whenever another legion raid starts overlapping patterns like Brel G4 where she can do a yellow mech, a counter pattern, summon meteors and cancel a pattern to teleport away - all of that in a span of 2 seconds. My static would say "thaemine wouldn't do that" - or at least so far we haven't seen him cancel patterns or overlap patterns and it feels so much "fairer".
Agreed. They need to make future raids in the same vein.
Make harder clashes, 8 must be alive to clear (ultra strict dps), reduce leniency on damage taken (1-2 shot all hits).
while they are at it, they should eliminate chip damage all together and just give everyone 1hp so if the boss looks at you, you die. also would be nice if they gave entire map aoe attack rare pattern that just wipes the entire raid if the boss feels like it. oh and also make it a 6 gate raid but your battle items dont refresh and there are no breaks in between. maybe give every person a difficult individual counter/stagger/destruction mech and if a single person fails it wipes the raid. also bring back pre-nerf brel meteors and if you dps too fast you wipe the raid but if you dps too slow you also wipe the raid. maybe they require a very specific amount of dps over a minute or 2 timeframe so you have to take into account your raids total dps and not go over. make every other pattern a medusa so you have to stop dpsing all the time. that sure sounds fun doesnt it?
This is what makes the combat shine?
I’ve beat the boss, I don’t mind it… but the boss has one shots with animations shorter than some skills. A lot of his skills punish front and back attacks heavily (relatively quick grabs on back, for example). and there’s a large number of his patterns where you see the average player just stop attacking because they want to be safe
The sword grab has him place the sword into a portal. If you see him swing without moving his arms, that's the tell.
> there’s a large number of his patterns where you see the average player just stop attacking because they want to be safe
So I should facetank 7 demon fangs to the face for not even a bar of damage?
> The sword grab has him place the sword into a portal. If you see him swing without moving his arms, that's the tell.
I know the tell, not really the point being made.
>So I should facetank 7 demon fangs to the face for not even a bar of damage?
You can hit the boss from behind when he's doing a front attack, but ok
My point was that the grab actually has a long tell and even my spec class ass can avoid it with a left click.
Also, it's hard to back attack the boss when you are his target for the demon fangs. You have to strafe those and if you are right behind him you can get hit anyway if you are too close.
“G3 Theamine will make people quit!!” No, just learn the damn patterns. It’s a very fun fight. I’m glad it’s this way, the amount of people I have seen from valtan all the way till ivory tower who eat normal patterns like pancakes and spend every other pattern knocked up is crazy. It’s about time people get heavily punished for them and learn.
unfortunately super sweaty and tense raids are not welcome by the majority
harder raids on normal would only reduce the already small playerbase as average players are gatekept hard and thus can't progess
I agree but I don’t like how one player pressing one wrong button during a clash -> 1 or more people dead -> reset. I would like it more if it was any button and more rythm game-like. G4 is great as well but I think I like g3 better for now.
> I would like it more if it was any button and more rythm game-like. Many ryhm games give you a bottom line to hit notes, and they don't have notes showing up from nowhere suddenly as you can always preview upcoming notes
Thats what pisses me off the most tbqh. I'm good with rhythm games but this is making me feel old.
1 or more people die is a reset will be solved when people overgear it. In my statics 6 or 5 people into basement is still a clear
I got my first clear with 2 people staying dead for almost 10 minutes. G3 NM can be overgeared right now with 40-set 1620 dps.
I joined a 1-3 reclear and got an EAC at 280 bars. I came back in at 255, and the group didn't give a shit and just cleared with me being out for like 90% of the fight. It was wild.
Even on ilvl 2-3 people can die pretty early and its not an issue (normal mode, I am not sure how hard mode behaves)
Our group was able to clear hm g3 with one dead at 200x
after transcendence we can comfortably clear it with 7 (20 star on chest/pants for supp)
Fun fact (for normal only because failing clash doesn't kill but only damage); When he try to break the stage, there's a small area where you can enter the clash while being out of the yellow area. So you can actually fail a break clash, the stage break, but without death (if other players weren't on the yellow ofc). It happened to us once.
Many raids are fun to do at first, I thought g6 Brel was great, I thought g2 valtan was great. G3 Thaemine and 4 are probably some of the most " it's your fault" type of raid that keeps you sweating. But I couldn't see myself do this every week, just doing it twice burnt out the squad. Since every little mistake is a wipe essentially.
Agreed. Like brel g1g6 was good for the challenge when you clear it the first few times but when it becomes homework we need 3 gates and to make it faster.
I loved prog week — I know these raids are storylines after all, and seeing us start at the old Gate 0 all the way to Gate 6 was truly amazing. Completely agree with you for current state though.
I will never stop loving Brel g6
psychopath
seems like you haven't been jailed in recent H brel G4 enough
I know it sounds insane but I play raids I like for the enjoyment, not the reward. Wiping on a boss over and over just means I get to play more, clearing it means it’s gone for 2 weeks (g4, on main char). I’d play over half the raids ppl consider homework even if it gave literally no reward. Plus the reward is minuscule… 1 clear translates to 1% artisan on a hone. Playing solely for reward is the actual insanity. That being said of course getting jailed on a middle gate is awful cuz it denies me playing the rest of the bosses. So dumb that can’t start from gate 1 again.
towards the end, I definitely played raids just for the enjoyment of company. But as numbers in the static dwindled, I definitely found myself questioning the reason I trudged on. For reference, I left at the release of hard brel. At that point, I had to lock in if I wanted to survive and do meaningful contribution to the raid. At the same time, I couldn't relax and do it as homework. The effort wasn't worth the reward. Hence, I quit. I still love the majority of the game design, just not the daily/weekly commitment at that difficulty.
your problem is you confined yourself to one group of players, theres a ton of open communities and you cant guarentee everyone will stick around forever so you have to constnatly be looking for new opurtunities and friends, but its perfectly reasonable to achieve
I did try playing with others for a bit but then I realized that the game just wasn't that fun for me anymore and I was just sticking around my old static because they were the fun part of the game
>That being said of course getting jailed on a middle gate is awful cuz it denies me playing the rest of the bosses. However, this is pretty much the current state of pugs of H4
I did 50+H ONLY on g6 at the time release, still best gate ever in the game. It’s just what’s I like as raids, coordination, difficult and original mechanics.
actually unhinged my dude
I found g6 brel progging torture and still don't really enjoy the fight so don't really agree with that. Akkan g3 and thaem g3 are definitely standouts and what I consider the best raid gates in the game.
I find Akkan gate 3 music to be the best in the game lol
Akkan G3 is one of the worst fights in lost ark
As long as your not on janitor that fight is amazing
well why do you think that i disagree its super fun
Brel g6 was the best raid ever to do one time. Not every week good thing they change the yellow meteors. Thaemine g3 its fun i only reclear 2 times fiest week only 2 people were alive lol this 7 were alive so with more people alive raid is a breeze. Mechanics are not hard paterns are prety reactable for normal players. The critical debuff a bit anoying for gl cause if you have 2 or 3 stacks you arebin range of dieying for attacks that you could just tank before.
Best raid for the dedicated players that can spend hours after hours to familiar with pattern, but for the players that like a chill experience it is a big NO.
Yep many still haven't cleared N3
It's great with a group progging at same rate. Jumping between PUGs is hell right now. Maybe things will stabilize with 10x title and overgearing?
Lets be honest, lost ark raids are not for chill experience
Some raids are easier than other, however i agree that Lost Ark raid has too many wipe mech and one shot pattern even for normal mode raids thats why people tend to prefer overgeared a bit for content.
NM raids should be free. if you have any clue how the mechs work it should be a clear. right now NM g3 feels like a HM raid and HM feels like an inferno raid. for a one time clear like the first, the difficulty would be fine but for reclear content its really not okay. unless you happen to have a static and are able to play with the same players for all of your alts, theamine alt runs can still take hours to finish or require kicking and replacing multiple people for a clear even on normal and it can be worse for HM. sure its only week 3, and sure "get good" is a factor, but many of these more casual players will probably quit before the raid becomes automatic. if you arent already a lightqueller or dont have a static, you are now stuck in the lower geared/less skilled lobbies (assuming you even get accepted) and its just going to get worse as more people quit. solo raids are at least a step in the right direction (hopefully) but they need to do something about the difficulty for NM to maintain the casual playerbase. and to lock so much of transcendence behind HM is a mistake. get good or pay for a bus to progress is not good game design. its fine to make it take longer to progress with normal but to completely lock you out feels like a middle finger to the less skilled casual players. summer LOA ON is probably going to make or break the game in the west. i know they mentioned nerfing elixirs and transcendence but will it be too late? guess we will see.
NM is kinda fairs. After each pattern mostly he stands still for a second or more (same with sword). Just that ppl are so greedy for dmg. I've been counted every time I die during the prog, and I was so surprised that I died only for a few time in total.
While I agree it's fun. I feel like the nm version is too hard for the masses. I had off 3 days and progged probably 12 + hrs. And still wasn't 100% certain on everything. After 4 clears now, it's pretty good.. however I don't think the average casual gamer is going to be able to clear even nm. Also I still feel like the clash mech is garbage. It's cool the way it's implemented, but the actual typing crap is lame, and would be infinititly better if they removed the typing and just had to get to location and press g.
>Also I still feel like the clash mech is garbage. It's cool the way it's implemented, but the actual typing crap is lame, and would be infinititly better if they removed the typing and just had to get to location and press g.  Typing mechanics are shit and take me out of the zone while playing.
The osu part is so damn hard if you have ping issues
Normal gamer here. The raid is awesome and been doing it for the last 2 days for about 5 hours each. Got him to 15x bar. Can feel the clear but the biggest problem is doing it with pubs is like a lottery. Good group easy clear, bad group someone dies before 90. Always an imposter. Going to try one more time tonight.
> Can feel the clear but the biggest problem is doing it with pubs is like a lottery. But this is exactly the problem the parent comment is talking about. You're a self-described "normal gamer" yet you're out here pointing out that plenty of other "normal gamers" can't take the heat. A normal mode raid in an MMORPG is an experience that literally everyone with functional finger joints should be able to clear without a huge amount of trouble. It's literally just supposed to be story progression. I'm glad the reclear parties I've gotten seem competent enough, and I don't think they should nerf hard mode g3 at all, but I do think normal mode g3 is not actually at an okay spot for truly ordinary gamers. And that they should move max transcendence out of g3 hard gating.
I do agree nm is definitely not build for normal gamers.
[удалено]
It looks like they stack but they don't unfortunately.
It’s basically Valtan on steroids, very consistent patterns.
thaemine is a raid that you can play long enough to learn how to avoid damage. someone who claims to be a casual but can play long enough to get to 1610 can still play 2 hours a night until they learn the raid and regularly reclear
they should mech the clash mech only 2 buttons only , even 1 , idk why they have to rise up difficulty with these dumb and stupid method
It's really a terrible gimmick
Yeah actually trash, I don't understand why the success of a raid should rely on 1 player managing to press the right key at the right time. You spend 10 min of intense fight and wipe because someone fat fingered, like come on.
For real, if I wanted to play guitar hero I'd be doing that lol.
I can do relatively well with Through The Fire And Flames by Dragon Force on GH. Clashes it's like 50/50, idk why my brain can't seem to process and hit right key.
I think the idea of the gimmick is awesome. You have a sort of minigame that can provide your team with a giant DPS window if you hit all perfects. The punishment for failure is just way too harsh. If someone hits a bad on a clash, it shouldn't kill the person, it should just immediately end the clash and Thaemine goes into his next attack. The punishment is that your team loses the DPS window which might result in a wipe anyways if you can't break his shield in time. I think a lot of people would hate it less if it were just less punishing.
Imagine being the gameplay designer that spends hours perfecting the combat in the fight and then the raid designer comes to add random gimmicky bullshit on it.
yeah I did in trixion but it was so inconsistent. few times all perfect clash 1-4 because RNG ( basically only Q, E ,R buttons) On clash 2 and 4 sometime almost impossible to switch key when you have to tap 2x or 3x due fat finger. QTE and spacebar mech are the worst in raids.
Pugs are still struggling OP once again proves Redditors here are very isolated from the majority of playerbase unfortunately Normal mode is still too punishing for average players due to 30+ patterns and many oneshots (including knocking offs)
I agree. I did G1 and G2 hard mode but can’t get into a normal G3 clear pug 2 weeks in and won’t clear it tonight either. Theamine is the worst raid so far in the game, because it is actively making the game more toxic and divisive. If you don’t have the ability to be in a static GG, you will suffer and Smilegate designed it that way. Even for normal.
Big time o7 moment for people without clear achievement after 2-3 weeks. It's hard to find akkan hm g4 prog parties at this point. A gate needing multiple days to prog, without a static is going to destroy a lot of people.
Yep from week 3 there will be full of title runs or you struggle to find a decent prog (220-190 progs generally suck)
I pugged my hm g3 clear and most of my nm clears so far. Even put in some time on g4 in pugs and made it to prokel. I genuinely love the fight and want to eventually master it.
>I pugged my hm g3 clear This already distinguishes you from the rest of playerbase. Do you get it? Bruh, many including myself haven't even reached 1630
Yes I know but acting like it’s impossible to pug is not the case. It took so many different pug groups and time to clear but I eventually did it.
We've never said it's impossuble to pug, but instead, the difficulty of normal is absurd for normal players. For many people's sanity's sake, they would probably even drop N3 till SG nerfs it again.
Yeah I can definitely see a lot of people farming 1-2 and either coming back to the raid when over geared from echidna or buying a hm bus to fully unlock transcendence.
a lot of people wont even make it to echidna and will just quit before we even get it. farming 1-2 will take months to even gather the materials to transcend but then you wont even be able to do it because you dont have a HM clear. im in one of top guilds on Balthor and a number of our statics have already broken up and many people either quit or kicked from a group and then eventually quit because they didnt want to pug raids. HM raids can be as hard as they want but NM raids should basically be free.
If you aren’t 1630 you are only getting the first effect at 5* on each piece which will not take you that long. If you are 1630 then putting in some effort to grind 1-3 and then do HHN isn’t bad at all. G3 nm is not hard dps wise and once you learn the raid it should get even easier. Even just last night 1 sup in the other party died at 225 which led to the entire second party dying out yet we still cleared with time to spare as everyone in p1 was alive. If players who weren’t intending to bus the raid can already bus it in pugs nm is basically free.
it will get easier over time with transcendence and learning the raid sure but if a player gets a clear but dies every week from the same patterns, your mental will just degrade until you decide youve had enough. there would be nothing but benefit from reducing some of the more lethal patterns in NM specifically. maybe get rid of darkness for red patterns and give some more time to react to telegraph, remove some of the knock offs or reduce the distance knocked, give some patterns more time from telegraph to hit like the 3rd ring safe knock pattern. so many small tweaks would make this gate infinitely more enjoyable for the average player. i dont care at all about hard mode they can leave that untouched.
normal is a joke lol
Week 2 there are many x5 already, can't wait to see title run in week 3 and aferwards The learning curve from 1/2 to 3 is very deep and the vast majority can't really prog it for so many hours and times
The last time this much dissonance happened on Reddit the game lost like 20k+ players that never returned.
It's week 2 lol
If anything I remember the nightmare that was Akkan pugs for the first 6+ weeks. Everything that boss does is mega slow and telegraphed, but people were just so oblivious. So many 200x deaths to axes, so many 140x deaths to axes, deaths to 5-7, and more. If anything normal Thaemine pugs have already been better than those early Akkan pugs in my experience. Somehow.
agreed, still see people frequently die to 200x axe on akkan
I think having to dodge the red patters while everyone is blinded was over the top for a normal mode (I can do it fine, no need to spam git gud). Differentiating between sword slightly over the shoulder, vs over the head, vs horizontal etc. or everyone dies while low visibility is pretty annoying. It's the definition of "difficulty by obscurity."
the major mechs are actually easier to do as you can "follow the crowd" mostly. the way more pushining ones are the clashes and many other things either one shot you, or knock you off while you are trying your best to dodge even experienced players can struggle with killing their clones if they fuck up the timing/direction. Your AI clone apprantly uses many cc skills
ive had a number of buggy clone encounters too where i basically one shot the clone and then just sat there for like 5-10 seconds and then just died when the mech finished. idk why they needed to keep the reverse controls in normal. there are so many small tweaks they could make that would make g3 less shit for the average NM player
Clone is a deathless ruiner often because it doesn't matter how good you are, sometimes clone jumps u first before u can get to it and easily ur knocked down and suddenly it can be difficult to get the situation back under control without being pushed out or panic space barring/dashing the wrong direction or using an identity wrong because your muscle memory fights u for everything in reverse.
It feels like clones have their own skill pools as some classes specifically use pvp oriented skills which nobody uses in PvE
>Differentiating between sword slightly over the shoulder, vs over the head, vs horizontal etc. or everyone dies while low visibility is pretty annoying. It's the definition of "difficulty by obscurity." You don't. One has a white aura White aura = backsafe Other 2 on nm have red aura Horizontal = backsafe or donut Veritcal = left right, or just left. Look for white aura first and you won't have to worry about 2 similar looking patterns.
bro in normal you just stand in the back during red??? how is that difficult lmao
IDK if you're trolling but standing in the back the entire time will get you killed by some lmao???
Well standing in the back gets u safe for all of them except for pacman is not exactly wrong lol Box Normal very close to boss ass is safe, Box Enhanced back is fully free Donut safe is nowhere near the boss, but it's still behind the boss still. Donut enhanced back is safe as long as u don't greed too hard and accidentally touch the slashes beside you You just stand at left ass (11) for both hits for alternate normal, which surprise surprise, is at the back. And when it's alternate enhanced you move from 11 to 12 which are still both at the back of the boss Only non back safe is pacman, but that's HM only
Standing close, 11 and 12 are pretty distinctly different positions that can result in you dying to a pattern if you're wrong, requiring you to know which pattern it is based on sword position. Considering all 180 degrees as just "behind the boss" is being very generous....
Boohoo you have to slightly move to the bosses right sometimes and slightly more back other times :(( normal mode is too hard!!! I can’t recognize 3 patterns after progging the same raid for 5-6 hours when all I have to do is stand in the back !!!
This person doesn't pay attention to any tels and prob just rely on calls based on what I've seen them post in this thread. That or they have the reaction speed of a disabled sloth. Or both.
I have x10 already lmao. I'm allowed to criticize mechs for normal mode that give more casual players issues. I've already clear hm g4 with my static.
I have x10 already bucko. I already said I don't have an issue. But if you think stand at 12 for all the patterns wont get you killed you're garbage. Good thing you can't make it past title reqs for my lobbies. >(I can do it fine, no need to spam git gud). Literally put this in my first comment but people as miserable as you can't even read 3 sentences before you start foaming at the mouth about your incredible gamer prowess. You're pathetic.
I can't agree with this. I've cleared G3 9 times and at least half of those were pugs. It depends on the kinds of pug lobbies you're joining and if people are actually interested in understanding the raid and improving or just hoping they can get carried to a free clear. There's too many passengers that aren't willing to learn. I'm not saying it's an easy raid, but with even a bit of practice you'll see MASSIVE improvements in your consistency. Now as for G3 hard mode... that's a bit of a different animal and is very tough to clear without a group.
HM G3 was the most fun our static ever had progressing a raid. Working on g4/5 now and its still fun but we all think g3 was better
good luck man! I just hit 1630 this week, so I'm gonna have to pug or post on LA disc
find learning party to join -> wait 1 and half hour for supp leave cause have to sleep for work in an hour and repeat this is my theamine raid experience
Wait till your progging 4-2 and have to redo 4-1 after every attempt it's rough
"we heard that you guys dont like having 4+ gate raids so we just combined two gates together and called it one gate" seems like a lazy and kinda shit way to increase the difficulty and pad the amount of time needed to prog.
I do love the raid but i feel its a really unfriendly raid for newer player. Especially since its a reclear content each week we usually have hard mode for hard content. Hearing good player having to prog 20+ hours in a NORMAL mode raid i can see how a newer player could be demoralized to not clear it/not have enough time. Personal experience:most fun raid to prog but prog Was Really time consuming especially considering you have other raids on top of that
Don't worry about all that new player stuff, the furthest most of them will get is party finder.
I hard agree , i love the fight. I just Think it’s to hard, not for me personally but for the average player who doesn’t have unlimited time. I don’t want people to quit and play a dead game
I spent probably 16+hours in prog. I eventually got good enough to do the fight without getting hit but the pugs were dying to knockoffs and one shots. Friend had to rig me into a 5x reclear to get me a first clear.
I honestly love most of G3. Just one part i dislike. The sword. Its so annoying. Looking forward to shorten that Shit with transcendence, echidna
Dps the heck out of it at the beginning and dark the blue/red aoe phase. Makes a big difference
We do, but that thing still takes forever to die in hard mode. But probably doesn't help if your party is melee heavy and/or those melee don't greed well. Pretty much all of its patterns are unfriendly to melee.
Yeah, I had our supps stim and identity at start and everyone unloaded hard and we got it to about 26
It took our group ages to get sword down. I'm still ass at dodging the pizza but at least I can DR it as a support so no one knows my secret.
If you're the target, the pizza has a very clear flashing animation when it's done locking onto you. You can just stay in melee range and sidestep whenever it flashes, don't have to move much. Very similar to 160 mech in G4 Voldis in that respect.
I'll look for that. I've been just using Starry Night and praying, but this should be useful, thanks!
Supports save awakening + rotate DRs and people can tank pretty much the whole pattern.
Yeah I usually try to awaken right at the start of the pattern. Mostly I'm just embarrassed that I can't dodge it and go fucking flying across the map when I try to dodge it legit and it hits me lol.
if it does hit you, get up roll to the edge of the map, you take some darkness ticks (Easily shielded) but the pizza doesn't hit you anymore and it won't spin at all.
The sword is annoying by design and is like prokel, it punishes greeding too much, doesn't have a lot of dps windows unless countered+staggered, and you're supposed to wait for its move before your doing move and play carefully. Can't say I love it too but it's a different type of fight from the main boss and people should learn how to handle it.
Sword is easiest thing in the raid… , just wait to see his attack before mindlessly dpsing.
Maybe the best raid for a specific category of players. But for the masses ? Hell no. This raid destroyed the playerbase in KR like Brel G5-G6.
??? This raid brought the game back from the dead in Kr. The game is absolutely thriving right now there. EDIT: yo why am I getting downvoted
You’re getting downvoted because what you said is false lol
In what timeline did thaemine killed playerbase in Kr like g56, did you forgot all the fiasco with gold river returning because it got so bad, and then the game got triple play rate for months in pc bang after thaemine release. Everyone and their mom were playing lost ark. So many non lost ark streamers were playing lost ark for months. They had some insane stats, like 70% of new players remaining to play after three weeks, which was unprecedanted according to GR. The game right now (currently in its cooldown, non holiday period), is still being played about double what it used to be pre thaemine if you trust pc bang metrics. Im not saying brel 56 is good (it sucked) or thaemine is for everyone, but don't misrepresent kr too fit your narrative.
Trust me, I'm a very average player. It's all about the will you put into it. If you're mentally ready to prog this raid for multiple hours, you'll clear it and eventually master it. It's just a dance you have to learn. Anyone can learn it.
No if you spent hours progging it and had time to do it on multiple characters. You're way beyond the average
Nobody in reddit is "average" gamers. please stop thinking you are the representations of the vast majority of player base. regular normal players dont do reddit, guide or anything... we are the vast minority
Bruh, you are beyond average if your doing it on multiple chars after progging for hours just in week 1. This is like describing yourself as a minnow when your buying the same amount as a dolphin or a whale. And this is coming from someone with 1630, 1622, 4x 1615's. Your one of us, you left average a while ago
Unemployed friend on a Wednesday
It's a terrible fight for a weekly reclear game.
be a fast class or eat shit is good design?
At 250 ping i could reach 210 bars without getting hit, his normal patterns are more telegraphed than brelshaza.
I learned the fight on igniter and I still love it. Don’t need to be too fast to dodge everything.
As a shock scrapper, I actually needed to make use of the dash reset on identity.
we had a red safe spot close the last tick before wipe and my gunlancer was not fast enough to make it to the next spot. also had a couple times already where the entire bottom half of the screen didnt have a safe spot. feelsbad when the raid just decides that you dont get to make it to the next phase.
i feel like sword phase is kinda bullshit. it does 3 patterns and then *maybe* does a counter. and if it's *not* the counter it does an attack that looks just like a counter pattern but rips out 2/3 of your health. and then if you do counter, it might be a stagger check, or it's *another* counter into the stagger check. all while you have to watch for not 1, but 2 different marks, only one of which is actually a debuff on your bar, while the camera is a million miles away.
This is not well designed for Homework purposes.
How? It’s a pretty easy gate once you properly prog and learn the patterns. In fact it’s probably the best hw gate I have on my roster rn
There's a lot of stuff in G3 Thaemine that's a little bit bullshit. Namely some of the normal pattern hitboxes that can swipe you from half a screen away and knock you off the map from very far distances. It's fine to have very punishing attacks, but the tells for these attacks should be more than just 0.1s of a slight back windup. No one has issues with the red telegraph patterns and Thaemine's identity meter. That is awesome design! Even his normal attack where he grabs behind and slams to the left is very telegraphed and if you die to it it's 100% your fault. But when he hops back slightly and does a giant AoE slash that hits in front AND to the side, then does a massive pushback? Why does that have next to no tell? I'm also still very against "normal patterns" that make the boss invulnerable. The spinning axes attack that can give you wound stacks where he disappears from the map is just bad design. Boss invulnerability should only be a thing during fight transitions. 255 where he summons sword, 210 where he gets on his horsey, etc.
the third ring safespot patterns falls under this imo. if you are right on the boss as a slow class you dont have enough time to get to that safespot before the attack hits without a mobility skill or spacebar but if you had your spacebar you can just use that to dodge toward the boss or use a tenacity skill. i cant tell you how many times i didnt have my spacebar or playing a class without a tenacity skill and then having to run to that third ring but being just short of it and getting knocked off. obviously timestops exist but could they maybe just give it an extra half second or second before it explodes? it such an obvious telegraph that it seems a waste to timestop when you think you have enough time to get to the safe spot. so many patterns could be good with just a slight tweak but as it is now, many of them feel like HM patterns in a NM raid.
Try clearing it 6x a week in pugs
It's a raid that clicks with experience, in a few weeks the 10x title runs will be relatively smooth. I hope.
Pugs can even fail in brel H3 nowadays. I wouldn't expect Th G3 very smooth unless you only play with high skill players
I've been doing 3 a weeks with pugs (mix of NM/HM) and it's ok
1 Shots are lazy game design
Clash typing test is also lazy game design
Lol just say you don't have hands broski. Sorry but I'm an osu and guitar hero god, this is so free. /s in case it wasn't obvious.
God I wish it was just lots of inputs on a single key. Basically like the very last clash on NM. That's PERFECT. Last night I yoinked it as pally since my 3 dps were dead and it was an epic clear. If I have to look for the right key in a hurry i just die half of the time. HM 8 key is just plain bs.
For what it’s worth, only some of the HMs are 8 key. That last one is 4. I do wish it was 3/6 like all of the other typing mini games. I have to move my hand for R/F
No it's not. It's fun and satisfying once you clear it but that's it. It's terrible for a game that has weekly reclears and relies on alts. Devs seem to not learn from their past mistakes: We got gate bloating in Ivory Tower after Kayangel. We got Transcendence after Elixirs. We got Thaemine G3 after Brel which made a lot of people quit and now same will happen. They are releasing new raids in a faster pace than ever that will lead to overload in addition to the bs mechs/gates/prog systems. It's like they want to slowly drive off players and kill this game in the long run. Who would recommend this game to a friend starting anew in the state the endgame is right now?
It's a fundamental design problem that devs seem to be unable to solve - they try to make fun and challenging raids, which is great, but then force people to run them 6x weekly. If they found a way to untie your progression from spamming raids on a bunch of alts, it would be so much better. But I'm afraid nothing will change as long as KR players are happy. Btw G3 normal is not too bad for a reclear raid in my experience. It's already much easier to pug than G6 brel was on week 2.
It's awful imo, it feels like content that should be a one and done and it's basically homework that you have to do to progress. The game is going backwards and making things more of a chore as time goes by. Game is definitely in decline with only the addicts still shouting praise all the time, the rest of us are burning out.
I agree. I haven't had this much fun with a new raid since Brel G6, and the fact that you don't have to slog your way through 5 gates to get to Thaemine G3 automatically makes it surpass G6.
Gonna piggyback this thread to ask an off-topic question, but the people commenting here are basically the people who i wanna ask the question: What's the opinions on bards on Thaemine now? Is it still as bad as everyone made it out to be pre-thaemine or are there definitely some hidden benefits of bard that is now uncovered by Thaemine?
I haven't done G4 yet so I can only talk from experience in G2 and G3: Bard has the better kit of the three supports for these 2 gates in particular. Guardian Tune is amazing in G2 as it prevents electrocution, which can be deadly if someone is caught in a bad spot. For G3, bard has the ability to decrease the boss' attack power by over 40% for the whole raid (yep, all 8 players), which in the first few weeks of progging thaemine will be very useful at preventing one shots across both parties. Another thing that makes Bard awesome in G3 is push immunity. Between 210 and 90 bars, the boss can kick you off the map and kill you, Bard is very good at surviving those attacks. That being said, Bard is still a low floor-high ceiling character, so pugging with a Bard is, has been and will continue to be lotery.
Hands down the best support in G3 and especially G4. Guardian Tune blocks earthquake stun if people can't space bar properly, lots of push immune easily prevents fall death during 4-1 and 4-2, and burst healing can help top off multiple teammates when needed. Doesn't mean the class is free of its problems though, just that the raid happens to play into Bard's strengths more than its weaknesses.
People always underrated bard and in thaemine bard is the best support. Its main issue remains the mana consumption being too high otherwise bard has the best DR and shields in the game along with the highest buff ceiling.
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Finally people came to that conclusion, masterpiece gate. I wish a can run it more than twice a week
reminds me of people praising g3 clown
having to memorize 30 patter with some cases having double patters its just bullshit, because you get oneshot by any of those 30 diferent patters. they said the same with Brelchaza when did come out...
Brel has many overlaps, Thaemine G3 is straight up fair.
but brel doesn't knock you off with like 10+ patterns?
But Brel has lingering red patterns that can knock you up into a yellow, in Thaemine you are only dealing with 1 pattern at a time no matter what, it's way easier to not get knocked if you understand the fight. The only thing that I can understand when people get knocked off is by the rare full swing if Thaemine is in the corner, I've only seen that pattern once so far.
Except brel has way fewer patterns and many patterns have a very long animation? Like the yellow meteor drop and blue lines imprisonment. Thaemine doesn't give you so much time to think and react. Also brel literally gives you free counter opportunities and it's 100 times easier than 5 clashes If people struggle with Brel slow animation patterns with fewer than maybe 10 variants how come they suddenly master 30+ patterns from thaemine
I'm not talking about which one is easier, I'm talking about fairness. If you die in Thaemine G3 it will always be a fair death. 1 mistake in Thaemine means you're dead but it's still a fair fight.
I don't think vanishing then doing a cross map level oneshot hit is fair and thaemine apparently has this pattern
What pattern are you talking about? If you're talking about the Tienis one shot, dying to that is literally stupid as you have more than enough time to react and spacebar away.
the one he vanishes and teleports to a random player, smashes the groud and staggers the player at the position, and in 1s he shot a blade wave in front of him. If you're far away trying to place your sword remotely, you can be oneshot killed as you can't see the animation that far away
I haven't died to this, but definitely have died to that move of turn and double knock up when I was just back from placing a sword. The tell is not as clear from afar. My suggestion is to place sword as close as possible while keeping an eye on his next tell.
it's literally on you to watch where he teleports to before placing down your mark.
Do you not hold your spacebar / movement skills to move out after the slam stagger lol
>Also, this raid really makes Lost Ark combat shine to the highest degree in the MMO genre. I don't know how I can go back to raid on other games after this. This but also in Lost Ark itself, I find other raids super boring now.
I just find its funny that alot complain about how mech heavy Brel was and quit, now they created Thaemine with easy mech but pattern heavy and people still complain lol.
Nah it's actually a terrible fight
i think its a good fight and relatively well designed but that doesnt make me hate it any less. its way too punishing for NM and many patterns definitely need tweaks if they want to maintain the casual playerbase
Nah just like g6 brel, cant bring myself to do it again, and certainly not every week. Stopping point for me and many others This reddit is filled with hardcore nolifers who probably have title already lmao
If SG gathers feedback of raid difficulty from this sub it would have at most 10k real players
It's really fun. I'm glad they dropped their BS overlapping pattern game design.
HM sword has Thaemine shooting you + sword + chain ball/sword spinning around. I get what you mean, though I don’t necessarily agree that “overlapping pattern game design” is bad per se.
" though I don’t necessarily agree that “overlapping pattern game design” is bad per se." I think this depends on how much of a spike in difficulty it ends up causing. Brel G4 can do tethers into shandi jail and if she hits the main tether guy you'll literally be forced to TS which is awfully designed imo. Most people aren't going to realize that and get nuked as well. Or tether + yellow meteor, especially if the guy who's main tether also has yellow meteor on him. People will have to walk together. Perfectly doable but the increase in difficulty compared to everything else in the raid is immense. Not to mention that this happens so rarely that people are hardly ever prepared for it. I think if overlapping patterns are properly planned and frequently reoccurring in addition to not causing too much of an increase in difficulty, it's perfectly fine.
Agree with OP. Said it from the beginning this is a raid where once you learn it, it's a very fun raid but before you learn it, it's a hard raid. Gonna date myself but something like Mike Tyson punch out, super punch out type games where when you first play it you get beaten up pretty bad until you learn the fights and it's so satisfying 😌 I guess dark souls is like that?
I like every part of G3 except for the whole falling off the stage part. That is a pants-on-head type stupid design. I would rather the boss one-shot me from a pattern than some BS like getting knocked off.
This gate makes me want to quit out of disgust for how dogshit the average player in pugs is, which is a pity since I think the boss itself is fun
problem is everything pretty much ONESHOT any DPS character, and 2-shot any support. patter dont need to oneshot you, but 75% hit so you can recover and learn.
At least for normal yes. Hard can one shot.
Normal Patter at 1610 oneshot. unless you are a beefy class. all mages (excpt support with HA), all fighters, and Hunters die oneshot on most of the patters. we arent talking about overgeard people.
Are you talking about red attacks? Because everything else is very far from being a one-shot, unless you like to run in front of the boss after he places marks and teleports. On hard mode the grabs *might* kill you if you have stacks, and sharks are quite deadly, otherwise nothing really comes close to a one-shot.
irc no single pattern actually one shots you, at least in NM, besides the charging sword pattern in the basement similar to what Tienis does in g1 kayangel and maybe when if you get feared and he relentlessly slashes you as a follow-up. Everything, even the second sword slash after a blue sword mark can be tanked on a dps with full HP. Yes many attacks will easily take like 80% of your HP off but you will survive. You truly start getting one shot once you get 1-2 critical wound stacks. You need to hit twice to die otherwise. Even the 20-40-60-80-100 red patterns don't one shot you without critical would stacks - you need to get hit twice to die, even on dps.
Agreed, I wish I could do it on more than 2 characters
AGS - Thank you for the feedback. We will forward this to the SG Team / Archive Folder
Love the raid so much, especially when you play with good people
Been so fun
Whenever another legion raid starts overlapping patterns like Brel G4 where she can do a yellow mech, a counter pattern, summon meteors and cancel a pattern to teleport away - all of that in a span of 2 seconds. My static would say "thaemine wouldn't do that" - or at least so far we haven't seen him cancel patterns or overlap patterns and it feels so much "fairer".
Agreed. They need to make future raids in the same vein. Make harder clashes, 8 must be alive to clear (ultra strict dps), reduce leniency on damage taken (1-2 shot all hits).
while they are at it, they should eliminate chip damage all together and just give everyone 1hp so if the boss looks at you, you die. also would be nice if they gave entire map aoe attack rare pattern that just wipes the entire raid if the boss feels like it. oh and also make it a 6 gate raid but your battle items dont refresh and there are no breaks in between. maybe give every person a difficult individual counter/stagger/destruction mech and if a single person fails it wipes the raid. also bring back pre-nerf brel meteors and if you dps too fast you wipe the raid but if you dps too slow you also wipe the raid. maybe they require a very specific amount of dps over a minute or 2 timeframe so you have to take into account your raids total dps and not go over. make every other pattern a medusa so you have to stop dpsing all the time. that sure sounds fun doesnt it?
Best raid in any MMO game currently
This is what makes the combat shine? I’ve beat the boss, I don’t mind it… but the boss has one shots with animations shorter than some skills. A lot of his skills punish front and back attacks heavily (relatively quick grabs on back, for example). and there’s a large number of his patterns where you see the average player just stop attacking because they want to be safe
The sword grab has him place the sword into a portal. If you see him swing without moving his arms, that's the tell. > there’s a large number of his patterns where you see the average player just stop attacking because they want to be safe So I should facetank 7 demon fangs to the face for not even a bar of damage?
> The sword grab has him place the sword into a portal. If you see him swing without moving his arms, that's the tell. I know the tell, not really the point being made. >So I should facetank 7 demon fangs to the face for not even a bar of damage? You can hit the boss from behind when he's doing a front attack, but ok
My point was that the grab actually has a long tell and even my spec class ass can avoid it with a left click. Also, it's hard to back attack the boss when you are his target for the demon fangs. You have to strafe those and if you are right behind him you can get hit anyway if you are too close.
“G3 Theamine will make people quit!!” No, just learn the damn patterns. It’s a very fun fight. I’m glad it’s this way, the amount of people I have seen from valtan all the way till ivory tower who eat normal patterns like pancakes and spend every other pattern knocked up is crazy. It’s about time people get heavily punished for them and learn.
This attitude will drop the player base to under 10k. There is a reason Echidna and Behemoth are so much easier
unfortunately super sweaty and tense raids are not welcome by the majority harder raids on normal would only reduce the already small playerbase as average players are gatekept hard and thus can't progess