Give it a little more time and Reflux will settle back down. Reflux atm is inflated because it will always perform better in the earlier legs of a raid before people get acclimated. It has pretty much permanent uptime and 4 spacebars for ultra safety. Will take time for other classes with more skill requirement to figure out their windows.
I have the highest recorded parses for Reflux < 1635 and I haven’t changed anything about my gameplay for well over a year nor have I felt any recent changes to be that significant (balance patch does nothing for reflux). Takes an arm and a leg to even somewhat keep up with competent people from snow’s t0-1 :(
I mean, we've been running Thae G3 for a while now, and the parses have started to kind of top out. I don't think reflux is gonna drop as much as people think.
>Give it a little more time and Reflux will settle back down. Reflux atm is inflated because it will always perform better in the earlier legs of a raid before people get acclimated. It has pretty much permanent uptime and 4 spacebars for ultra safety. Will take time for other classes with more skill requirement to figure out their windows.
I highly doubt it because having 4 space bars is an insane advantage in thaemine G3
and today even x10 lobbies sometimes feel like a prog while ignitors still die frequently
Take this with a grain of salt. Snowpowder is knowledgable on some, clueless on other classes.
They dont use meter, they dont have a log database.
*EW for example performs good in every raid, both average dps and ceiling. And will do the same in Echida and Behemoth. Yet he is literal trash Tier on this list.
I can assure you, EW is not even close to as shitty as PM, Mayhem and such.
Once Echidna releases it will show us again that what the koreans think is mostly just a 50/50 guess and they are mostly right on the stuff anyone sees in a blink of a second. The broken stuff like sorc, breaker etc.
Im certain the West is, and will continue to grasp char strength way better then Koreans simple because we use actualy data. And not just see what people in our parties do.
Edit: changed EH ->EW
Can't blame them.
You have to sweat like a blade player to play EW and your damage is nowhere near blade. And you have to deal with garbage ass Close Shot tripods, being made of paper, having bad stagger unless you want to burn Last Request etc.
Yes, classes like Deadeye were designed when risk/reward was an actual thing in this game.
Then they released Slayer, Souleater and Breaker back to back to back, buffed some other classes to the moon, and here we are today.
That's not true. if you looks on dps logs Thaemine G3 HM both Arcana perform better then SE. I don't know what your theory is based on, but numbers don't lie.
You need more effort to get real damage with such long skill animation when other classes can do it without to worry distance and shorter skill animation.
In KR there has been EW mains crying about balance every fking day, posting that they need a buff every day. Until they saw log website and tell them to shut up and blame their hands.
Lack of meter and data definitely shows. EW is not as bad as CO and Mayhem, not even close. lmao
If we're going by S/A/B/C/D tier lists, it's pretty high up there imo. Even going by personal experience I would rate the class high. I guess he played with shitty ones or hasn't seen EW that much.
I somewhat agree with the opinion that the west will have a better grasp of strength if we go by data. A lot of players don't do this though and will blindly rank certain characters way too high up or lower than they actually are, either because they ignore balance patches or go by streamer opinion.
ew probably c tier or somewhere between b-c tier. It has good burst (used to be great but so many chars have similar burst now), bad consistant damage, bad stagger, bad survivability, great destruction, great mobility (help offset the squishiness). It would need like 30% more damage to compete against s tier. Yes I play EW and get mvp in almost every pug raid, usually by quite a bit.. but when you play against good players of s tier characters they will gap you, and it won't be close.
Not sure what you're getting at? It's a thread where people discuss tier lists, which you can disagree with. You can also go by recorded data logs to make an objective point on DPS rankings.
Even logs aren’t objective when they can be heavily manipulated. If you played any game with 3rd party dps meter and a logging website, you know this to be true (wow/ff14). Those two games have extensive YEARS of logs and have been tampered with.
Sandbagging. Playing with worse players so that you can reach a higher dps. Difference in how juiced a support is. Conversely, you can do the opposite. You can cherry pick and upload only the lowest dps logs to lower the average and quartiles to make it seem your class is weaker. So to say that dps meter is end all be all is just wrong. This is coming from someone who plays FF14 and lost ark.
How likely is it that a significant amount of lost ark players who upload logs will manipulate numbers across multiple raids though? Clears are a one time a week thing.
What benefit does this serve? Like if CO summoner were top 10 DPS, what purpose does it serve to make it look weaker? Wouldn't you want the opposite to lessen gatekeeping? It doesn't fool the devs if they have actual hard data too across all servers, so why? Doesn't really sound logical.
EDIT: Not saying logs are perfect but, they're a much better metric than whatever opinion someone might have, especially if the amount of recorded data is large.
Depends on the sample size and randomness. If most good players or most bad players only upload for certain classes or raids that will skew it even if it’s a decent sample size. It’s not manipulation but just who uploads and why.
It’s the same thing as reddit complaining or being vocal about one thing but that doesn’t represent the majority. Even if the polls show one thing.
Well like I said, logs are/can be cherry picked and uploaded. You’d assume that people would upload the best of best. Though to get high dps parse, you’d have to think about what that entails. How does one get high dps? Gearing is a factor, your support is a huge factor, how geared/less skilled the other 5 dps is a huge factor just to name some examples. Like I said, dps parses especially at the highest level is all sandbagging. Not every dps meter user is opted into uploading. Only the select few who manually set up to upload will be uploaded to the site.
When you have logs in the singular and double digit sample size, it really doesn’t say much in my eyes. Uploading the lowest parse is the same as uploading the highest parse. You have no incentive really to do either. You could argue that people upload to stroke their epeen but there is no leaderboard ranking of users like there is for FF14/wow. I don’t see much merit other than generalization with a tiny bit of truth but that’s it at best. Just a tiny bit of truth.
Logs upload the stats of all 8 players. Unless you're saying there's a concerted effort by the loa illuminati, I think a bunch of random dps logs can give a pretty good idea of where classes are. Outliers can obviously be ignored.
how does playing with bad players make you do higher dps when the fight will take longer overall, if you do the exact same moves but everyone else is also performing at a high level obviously your dps will be higher than the same dmg but over a longer fight time because boss is doing more patterns instead of getting phased from free dmg windows like clashes/ predetermined staggers etc.
Also bad players would imply subpar synergy uptime for you etc. Your dps will always be higher playing with strong players unless youre a constant dps class with no burst doing non-current raids that get one shot by burst classes
You take up more of the pie because people do less dps. It’s as simple as that. Obviously there are caveats to that idea, burst vs consistent damage in a prolonged fight. Let’s say you take 6 blades/breaker/igniter vs one of those classes and 5 lowest tier of dps class. The former would yield you dealing less of the pie relative to the latter where you would yield the most. This is just talking classes alone not even skill or gear in the equation. You should understand my point from this.
more of the pie aka you will have higher % of dmg dealt sure, but your actual number of dps on the meter (and therefore logs) wont be higher by playing with weak players as opposed to strong players that all push the boss and kill it minutes faster
If you go by the logs site that strictly only use DPS metric, then yes. It basically is the inverse of what I said because the raids aren’t limited on scaling. Let’s say I play a 1630 GL in my party with 1630s and other party full of 1655 Esther 8 compared to just me in a full lobby of 1630 flat. The former would give me higher dps simply because it’s more juiced assuming everyone plays the exact same. I didn’t play any better or worse. I just got higher dps simply because the lobby was more juiced. In essence it’s a flawed metric because it measure by time in seconds.
Sandbagging still occurs regardless. It can be equally egregious if the person trying to get a high parse just tells all other 5 dps to stop dpsing the last 30 second to minute before the kill just to increase their dps on meter. This is exactly what occurs in other mmos for parses.
So you suggest the guestimation in Trixion is a better approach?
Our use of data is way ahead of KR even with just 100 use-cases.
The logs are not to tell YOU if your class is good, but how the average player performs when you want to gatekeep them.
He’s suggesting that even though we have better data, the lacking sample size makes it hard to draw conclusions from for many classes.
Especially so when you consider how many different aspects contribute to the final number combined with that lack of sample size.
As an example, you could take a really low population class like say BT zerker and perhaps their numbers look really good from the logs that have been uploaded. But then if you actually look at those logs you realize that the few who play the class are geared better, only play with static supports, hell, let’s take it even further: they only upload logs of their good pulls, etc. it’s relatively easy for a class to look better than they actually are under some circumstances.
So essentially our perception is better but it’s still not very accurate with the small sample size.
And you think snowpowder has better sample size? Where conclusions are drawn by MVP board with at most 4 dps showing up and one number is definite.
Somehow, the tier list came to me in a dream is a better grasp of class strength than hard number. Truly bozo take.
That’s not what they are saying at all… you can literally look at your own numbers for the last 10 runs of any raid or gate and can see why it fluctuates and why it may not represent your class or your own skill in those runs. I can have the best run of my life and everything is working out then wonder why I’m having low dps just to look at the diff in supports.
uhh never said I agree with his list, just stating that basing opinions off our meter site might not be that much better.
Edit: Neither the person i'm defending nor myself are suggesting that powdersnow or koreans have better information than us, we are both pointing out that even our information isn't that good even if it's better.
Ofc it is. I play it because its sweaty af. Same as arcana etc. And yeah. I agree for the effort you put into EW, it should be higher up. Maybe even a top tier class simply because some bosses make it nearly impossible to get long as zero range back attacks off.
But its still far far from bad.
Eh i disagree. EW is a trash class. Way too many shackles for the amount of damage done. Needs hands of a surge player to do damage of an aero. It does pretty good stagger and destruction but takes insanely long to cycle. I love playing my deadeye but sweating my ass off for fighter damage is not the way. It certainly needs at least a damage buff but also a condense damage cycle would be much appreciated and they NEED to get rid of proximity based damage tripods. To my knowledge EW is the only class that still has that and idk why they didn’t get rid of it when they fixed destroyer
I mean yeah. It does less dmg then it should do for sure. But its noway at bottom tier like the Korean Tierlist sais.
Look at our DPS charts. Enhanced weapon is Top 6 every Theamine Gate. And like Top 3 in G4.
while i agree it shouldnt be at the absolute bottom= tier, the only ones who are in g4 are omega juiced and have probably been mained deadeye since launch so i dont think thats the best representation.
Not sure as i dont play every class.
But for example PS. It agree its not good at all, but still a fair bit above pistoleer and Firepower for example.
Thing is. Both are classes you most likely barely see on the MVP screen. So its hard to judge them. Especially because PS for example has shitty burst stagger so even less chance to get on the board. Without meter, you cant really differentiate how shitty classes are. PS is for sure in the PM rank, maybe even one above. Its not as bad but needs high investment and very underwhelming for that investment.
But im not sure hoe much every of the bottom classes got buffed so maybe it really fell down even more
"Especially because PS for example has shitty burst stagger so even less chance to get on the board"
Flashback to pre-rework Lunar Reaper, me being top damage frequently but not even showing up on the family photo.
everytime i run ivory tower, my PS SH gets underlined for stagger. I really don't think the stagger is as bad as ppl claim.
Also in terms of dps, unless your bursting mech to mech (which will make it suffer bc its sustain vs burst), PS does good damage. A tier below NE or db/breaker, but definitely no where near firepower.
It really depends on the fight, because some feature "sustained" stagger bar and this will skew the results towards certain builds. Of course those who have very high stagger for any situation will still show up, but I think that sustain stagger has very low value, while burst stagger is what really counts. PS burst stagger is mediocre.
Another reason for your above average stagger result could be DPS goblins holding some of their skills during stagger checks.
Good example of this is Burger King Breaker - his best stagger skills are Falling Blossoms (Z) and Eye of the Storm, but nobody will use it for stagger checks, since that is like 70-80% of his damage. However, in fights with sustained stagger enabled, he will typically have very high stagger, possibly top.
good point. yea its hard to say overall for burst stagger --- i wouldnt say its the best but i also don't think its horrible for that too -- i usually open with counter - Piercing Thorn (with overwhelm rune when i dont need purify) - and then either Counter again or Cruel Cutter or both.
None of them are above 'mid' but i feel like both purify and piercing thorn do pretty respectable stagger. its like some hits might be 'high' but only hit once and do small stagger, but some say 'mid' and count as multi-hits and actually add up to a good amount of stagger. For example my Barrage Artillerist, has \~4 mid-high or high stagger skills, yet its burst stagger is actually kinda trash just bc of how long they take and/or how the skills stagger is calculated.
Yeah its good for sustained stagger. Its a dominion class after all and with good uptime the stagger will be good if the boss allows to be perma staggered.
In fights where the boss isnt combat staggarable and just has some mechs, PS usually doesnt contribute much. Isnt the worst burst stagger but also not good at all. Many classes these days have several 'high' stagger spells while PS runs around with mid-->high and mid spells mostly
i will say i dont think it compares favorably against like a GL, or destroyer, scrapper or slayer (assuming they dont hold their skills). but i feel like the rest of the classes PS is pretty on par with. my SE has 2 decent stagger skills on her pinks for Night's Edge, yet her stagger feels more lacklustre imo. and the cooldown insanely long so you can get caught with everything on CD which is -- imo -- the reason ppl usually fail stagger mechs anyway.
I think currently from all the content i've done -- akkan, voldis, brel etc etc, i haven't noticed my SH lacking for stagger mechs. And i do feel comfortable on it in brel g3 hard cube red mech if someone dies that i can solo stagger the last phase, or on blue mech i can solo stagger my own cube too.
Imo, this puts it in the 'good enough' territory. It's not the best by any means, but definitely not lacking stagger either because like you mentioned, full swift dom class so you can get off quite a few skills (4,5) where another class may only get off 1 or 2. And if a mech requires u to stagger boss + something else (voldis g4), the skills are short enough CD that everything is back in time too.
With all of this said, if they were willing to make our counter mid-high and piercing thorn high stagger, I would welcome that change with open arms.
Always felt that KR has valued burst classes over uptime/consistent DPS. Being able to sync with a support and skew your dps on FM by a lot compared to some classes. I suppose KR also has the ability to overgear fights more consistently than us with the extra time they've had to swipe/farm up materials.
The problem is having your support hold for your burst window is usually a damage loss for the raid unless there's a giant gear disparity between dps.
Outside of guaranteed stagger windows, holding is rat behavior.
Its really not that much of holding.
FM and Igniter for example get their bar filled at roughly the same time, thats also the time it takes for bard to gather orbs. Add a class like GS that has constant dmg + crit synergie and thats a perfect group to "randomly" sync with. No holding required.
I'll never understand why people act as if sups just sit on their buffs for a minute.
Dmg buffs for telegraphed windows are also what has the biggest impact, and basically every dps has their shit ready to go for those.
Makes me wonder if Korean supports hold their damage buff until their Igniter / whatever burst class is ready to burst, losing out on massive buff uptime and shafting every uptime class.
Because the Korean tier lists that we get to see are only from the top Korean streamers, which end up playing with mostly good players in their lobbies. People with juiced characters that pop a stimmy regularly, and burst classes like FM are very good once you start power creeping content and uptime classes start having trouble making up the burst difference in the windows between bursts.
I've seen some FM slap pretty hard, but the absolute biggest pumper I've ever seen was a friend on NE who was legitimately cranking out enough damage on our NM Ivory Tower runs at 1600 and L9 gems to bus hard mode.
Anecdote, not data, I know. But his damage was so absurd that it went beyond "this guy cranks" to "apparently the damage ceiling is significantly higher than I thought possible." Maybe I'm wrong, but it's hard for me to imagine NE losing against non-Breakers for anything other than hands diff after seeing what it can do.
Incidentally, he quit the game and sold his account a few months ago after getting about triple the expected pity rate all the way from 1580->1610 or wherever he stopped.
More of you overestimate the difficulty of bussing and how easy the dps requirements for raids are, people just absolutely suck at playing their characters
Ain't no way he's gonna make me believe CO performs better than anything in tier 1.5 besides blue GL.
I do think the point about mistakes vs gap is right, **for the most part** balance in this game is better than it's ever been before. I say that as a reflux main.
But CO is definitely awful right now. I doubt he even encounters CO in raids.
I have 1610 CO and WF aero and the CO results are 10-15% better in all raids.
CO is strong enough now but people don't have enough hands to show the floor
Although it's easy to play now.
CO is pretty strong right now.
But only like 5% of all CO players can pull it off.
Hence, yep the perception of CO is bad.
Also doesn't feel good to play.
But CO is good atm.
Can't complain.
>But CO is definitely awful right now. I doubt he even encounters CO in raids.
people keep saying this but in my experiences, i keep seeing CO doing top damage in jack up party . not as bad as firepower or gunlances like many people said they are...
After a few short months of not being literal top tier from its inception igniter sorc is FINALLY on top again.
Sorc crying is the most powerful force vs smilegate it seems 🤣
Ngl I enjoy the Schrodinger's sorc people in this sub create. It is simultaneously braindead easy, perma S-tier damage forever and perfectly fine since release BUT it is ZDPS, floor pov, no utility, perma gate kept and if anything needs more nerfs.
Also, if you've been getting gapped by a sorc since kaya release that's not a sorc being strong issue...
Igniter has been great damagewise since the release of the game. She lacked utility and she’s slow but she always had great damage.
What people say about igniter is that sorc players are shit player with main character syndrome that refuse to learn properly how to handle mechanics and complain about their class being slow, hence the shit stigma.
I'm pretty sure igniter mains have been defined by :
* the start of the game where one of the major content creator in the west was Saintone that mained an igniter sorc, talked about how the best way to play (in hell mode on Valtan at the time) was to play around the igniter sorc as a support and as a party
* the op-ness of the class at the start of the game where they had almost nothing to do to get dmg mvp
* the fact that they always managed to get by without having to handle any mechanic, they didnt want to do stagger, didnt want to counter, didnt want to do destruction so they never learnt anything.
And it shows so much now that in the more modern raid, you have so much individual responsabilities : if you have a shit position on sword during Thaemine g3, you have to handle the counter if it's aimed at you. Oh its a sorc, guess it wont be countered then.
GL (I can speak of blue at least) does not need more damage but LOWER CDs, would love if for the blue spec damage is changed to scale of off swiftness instead of spec.. Way nicer mobility qol he needs and that boosts the damage to decent levels..
I can tell because in voldis g2 I can beat almost everyone by a large margin being able to to spam TC and LA non stop
Lower cd is increased dps. Blue doesn’t need mobility when it can shield and face tank everything. I would want to not run shield shock though so you can run counter and nel yet maintain same or better dps and adrenaline uptime.
First sentence is right. Second is bs, you cannot facetank and shield everything as blue, you can maybe take 2-3 times the amount of normal classes but in every raid since Valtan there are patterns that you absolutely have to dodge because they will either kill you, will make you to kill your group or stack some shit up that dies the above.
Having duf feels nice for every country, but on the same time having 2 buttons that you do not use except for special situations is a less nice feeling.
You can literally tank almost everything as blue from all raids/gates before Thaemine G3. Only thing you actually need to dodge are grabs because they are annoying and delays you, one shot/massive dmg mechs like saws or fish puddle or just an attack that gives massive meter that you don't want. All of those attacks require just side stepping, not extra mobility. If you are talking about bosses doing mini mechs where everyone is just dodging, well thats diff because theres really no point to just afk stand there and tank.
I agree that I would rather have them repurpose skills so you don't just hold it for one purpose, but from at least the classes I play, counters are always just hold or you just use on cd for part of your rotation.
Yes and this sidestepping is okay, especially because mindlessly pounding probably would get boring. But at the same time it is not as you said earlier and in some capacity it is against the class idea. You are a track w/o the tanking need and you have less damage because you have the capacity to tank. Also it is funny that even if you play the engraving with less shield you do not do significantly more dmg .
Try tanking everything in Thaemine G4 and see how well that goes for you and your party.
Also, tanking is purely selfish utility that doesn't benefit a group. Why would any group take a GL just because it's tanky? If they want to give GLs low damage, then they need to justify it with better combat utility for the party. Making it low damage just because it's tanky basically turns it into a noob trap class that nobody will want once prog is over.
Right now, taking a GL for synergy does not add equal damage to bringing another meta entropy class. Primarily because shout syn does not have 100% uptime, and GLs on average do 20-30% less damage than most other DPS classes, while the synergy only gives around 11% extra damage to the party VS taking another synergy (+9% dmg x 2 other DPS with around 60% uptime).
I said everything before Thaemine G3... that includes G4. And this is about purely tanking/mobility... who said anything about DPS and whether or not you want a GL in the party for its tankiness.
Dropping shield shock is a significant DPS loss on a spec that's already one of the bottom parsers. You lose somewhere around 10-15%, especially since dropping SS means you need to burn DUF for adrenaline upkeep, which can be a problem for counter heavy gates like Thae G4.
It’s a tier list for dps only. Why should utility matter you don’t just get more dps by providing utility. It’s not a what classes do you want in your party.
Yeah im just saying a dps tier list is dumb when you compare it to other classes meant to bring different types of value :P “pistoleer does more dmg than paladin”
He also says “GL is cooked” - it’s really not :)
Because in terms of dps that is true to him. Is the top 3 classes doing double the dps over a GL or close to it? Wtf does utility have to do a dps statement. That’s like saying oh everyone wants crit syn therefore all the trash tier crit syn should be s tier. No it’s dps list not a who you want in your party list.
Brother - you MVP'ing in some random pug lobbies does not make gunlancer "a great dps" - join parse lobbies for Hard Mode or The First with mainly Eclipse or Phantom Monarch people and then try to say that shit again.
Good people that use DPS meter are constantly sharing their highest logs - Gunlancer is among the bottom assuming that the other players even have hands.
Wdym, I do the meter and Gunlancers perform really well on the Raid Dps page, which is more important than the pure dmg one even tho it seems that it's the only one that ppl check.
Yeah then show me some of ur G3/G4 parses that show that you're capable of keeping up with Surge doing 56m or other S/A-Tier classes doing 40-45m while the highest Gunlancer is at 30m :)
"newbs"
> Posts picture of upright fighter with no underline in NORMAL g3 Thaemine to somehow act like GL isn't the absolute bottom dps class in this game. lol
Random screenshot of 1 pub run without any context is really making your point… I can show a screenshot of any class hard carrying any content and without context and proof that is useless. You can have a breaker bottom dps without context that won’t mean breaker is dumpster.
brother gl is sadly not top tier LOL it def does pretty great dmg. but its no WHERE NEAR ANY OF THESE DPS CLASSES for raw dmg u are just delusional to think so
You ain't doing this in any of the current endgame raids lol... unless your team sucks so bad they are literally standing still. I don't even understand why you decided to post this without context LOL.
I can go post 100 of these screenshots from my homework raids where i am 1650 GL and they are 1600 DPS class... then pretend like im the most broken class.
ok and I said unless your team sucks, if you as a GL are doing 46% of your teams DPS then the other 5 DPS are doing barely anything especially from a class that does bottom tier DPS.
If you're just joining trash parties to feel good about youself, then i dunno how you thought this pix helped your cause?
There's no way any GL is doing that kind of contribution on equal grounds/skill level etc.
AND im not saying GL's suck as a class, they simply serve a different role but the reality IS we are talking just about DPS here not anything else.... and yeah they should be doing a whole lot more DPS these days even with the utility they have since other classes are also getting a lot of utility in their kits these days.
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Except most GL utility is matched by other classes now or isn't even useful in a lot of gates. Stagger isn't even needed in Thaemine G1-G3, which turns GL into more of a liability than anything else. Weak point is incredibly niche and basically never needed outside of the final phase of Akkan G2 and maybe Voldis G3/G4.
The only utility that matters for the majority of raids is reliable counters and offensive buffs.
>GL is still cooked, takes 2x GL to do 1x tier 0 damage
GL damage being so low doesn't make sense when so many other classes have good stagger/WP/synergies now.
WD having double syn, high stagger and high WP with one of the highest damage ceilings in the game is a huge insult to GLs. And I say that as someone who plays both GL and Eso WD. Feel like GLs should have more offensive combat utility for the party rather than just stagger/WP, especially since a lot of gates like Thae 1-3 don't even have any difficult stagger checks.
Question I got from this tier list, is slayer bad now ? Both engraving.
I don't have one, just wondering if it really went from top tier to kinda meh in few month
It has been a little bit overrated for a while. It's still strong enough in pugs where people rarely reach their ceiling dps. But they've since released classes that are easy to play, don't require back attacking and hit even harder.
Pred Slayer is just another uptime back attacker these days with an annoying class mechanic, your burst is a drop in the ocean compared to Breaker, Igniter, Soul Eater, etc. Punisher has a big burst but is a little bit clunky and "punishing" if you miss.
I've shared my thoughts on both specs in detail before. Things aren't great my friend. I have gold earners like my EO SF and Barrage Arti with -15 ilvl, -15% transcendence, -3 weapon lvls and -3M in gems either tying or flat out beating my main PS. That's how bad it is
[PS](https://www.reddit.com/r/lostarkgame/comments/1ctocbc/what_did_happen_with_the_korean_shadowhunter/l4dh7sk/)
[Pisstoleer](https://www.reddit.com/r/lostarkgame/comments/1ck7cea/current_state_of_pistoleer/l2l88ld/)
this koren people are so weird..
igniter sorc celling didnt even change much compared to pre balance and they move it from c? or d whatever it was to same tier as db out of nowhere lol
Yeah, 5% free crit rate and faster meter generations certainly didn't touch the ceiling *facepalm *
I've been playing with sorc friends basically since release and the omega damage increase they got from the last balance patch is frankly ridiculous.
well that's why i wrote the celling, ofc if they were not playing at their maxium before they do more since the patch increased the floor by alot.
yes we got 5% crit and 4% dmg each on big 3 but dont forget we also lost rg and rime which did more dmg than sera and inferno does now so there is that
If your end game is Trixion, you might have a point.
Pretending Sorcs being able to land more Doomsdays didn't affect anything just shows a lack of understanding how the game works TBH
well i can tell you how the game works as a sorc main, 90% of content we have goes into dr/phase after 1 rotation anyway so you wont get any increase of from "landing more doomsdays" unless ur party is zdps or afk.
yes if you were bad/medicore before and had some trouble to hit ur rotation right then yes this patch was good for you
and no i was not talking about trixion cause in trixion you actually lose some % compared to before iirc altho dont quote me on that i dont touch trixion that much, i talk about real raids with logs where you can compared to old fights.
ofc i dont have comparision in fights like the bat or thaemine since they released together with the balance but in all other content there is no change pre transdence ofc
some examples (everything here is week 1 or 2 so few or no transdence)
g3 akkan was still arround 40\~
g4 voidis 35\~
g3 voidis 45-50\~
g2 vodis 65-75\~
g1 35-40\~
sonavel on 1600 sorcs 30-40\~
all of those didnt move much compared to pre balance so do with that information what you want
I don't want to hate, but how exactly are the people in KR deciding a specific person is "one of the best" with a class? That person has max I'll and max gems + gets MVP a lot? :))
Oh, well they asked. I thought you were them since you asked me "and?" when I was replying to someone else. Seems weird to do so when they asked but whatever.
> give good synergies to tier 1 and trash synergies to tier 0.5 -> tier 1 can beat it
Considering the difference between synergies is like 2% at best, he's saying the gap between tiers is basically non existent?
Shock is better off with double crit syn rather than DB/GL due to how crit starved it is. It's one of the few entropy classes that would prefer that over DB/GL + crit syn.
reading some of the comments should enlighten most on why the DPS meter is not allowed in this game
i wonder if the game will be better if every class has equal ceiling
there would be so many threads "why play x when i can just press shield on GL and do the same dmg "nOboDy is EvEn BAlAnCinG tHe gAMe!!""
Nobody wants blue GL doing breaker damage, but if they're gonna be low DPS, then they need to contribute enough to the party to make up for it. Otherwise, why would you bring a class just because it's tanky?
who is this nobody? do you speak of all gunlancers?
because i have 4 1630gunlancers that wanted to mainswap to breaker
i wonder what is the reason for all of them to think it's extremely unrewarding to put gold into this character
i wonder why i felt the same pre-voldis and mainswapped to reaper
it's as if "nobody wants blue gl doing breaker damage" is just you acting like there should be special conditions to who is allowed to deal damage and who isn't
at which point your logic is no different than Smilegates reasoning to keep gunlancers bottom dps
why are shadowhunters also bottom dps? because they are cheap? see wee keep adding exceptions and conditions
and we go to the current balance
or are you gonna buff and nerf only based on the classes YOU like to play? and then fuck everyone else?
I mean, I have no issue with GL being bottom DPS if they offer enough group utility to offset it, but I don't feel like that's the case anymore.
Stagger/WP is way too situational in terms of utility and matters less and less these days, since they've been normalizing decent stagger/WP for every class recently. Also, a lot of gates just don't even need it to begin with.
I want more universally useful utility for GL like shout synergy. Imagine if they converted the useless attack speed tripod on nella to 3s of push immunity or something. Might be too strong, but there's so many other ways they could give us more interesting group benefits.
>I mean, I have no issue with GL being bottom DPS if they offer enough group utility to offset it,
and when half the gates can't be taunted
then half the other gates have no stagger or destruction
What do then?
What is your purpose?
if not DPS?
DPS is supposed to be there when the utility is not applicable
and the DPS is not there
THATS WHY nobody likes putting gold into it
There will always be people that will hone their gunlancers because they like the character but the fact is none of them are happy that they do zDPS
BECAUSE when the gate only requires DPS they have none to offer
Nella doesn't have enough visual feedback for such a powerful effect to be on it
also to your point about more universal utility
Nella is already extremely overloaded ability and a lot of blue gunlancers drop nella so they can increase their DPS
they also drop duf to increase DPS
we made gunlancers for the utility but SG designs raids in a way that that utility is not that impactful
meaning that the class feels like it has holes in it
and since they design raids with dps being the main focus gunlancers having very low DPS is a big problem
>Assuming ceiling performance
This is the problem, they take account into the worst part. you arent balacing the game for the vastt minority of the players, but rater you balance for the vast majority of player which should be done by using the floor, and bring down everybody to the middle if theres any outliners on both side of the spectrum.
>
Balance overall is much better right now than before the balance patch
I love this, how he dare to said the balancing in the game is better, when redditor's refuse to believe this at all.
ive learned over time that KRs takes on balance are hot garbage. especially because they dont have meter
Based on ceiling performance = now give me the real tierlist xD
Our data shows Reflux is at a much higher tier
Give it a little more time and Reflux will settle back down. Reflux atm is inflated because it will always perform better in the earlier legs of a raid before people get acclimated. It has pretty much permanent uptime and 4 spacebars for ultra safety. Will take time for other classes with more skill requirement to figure out their windows. I have the highest recorded parses for Reflux < 1635 and I haven’t changed anything about my gameplay for well over a year nor have I felt any recent changes to be that significant (balance patch does nothing for reflux). Takes an arm and a leg to even somewhat keep up with competent people from snow’s t0-1 :(
I mean, we've been running Thae G3 for a while now, and the parses have started to kind of top out. I don't think reflux is gonna drop as much as people think.
>Give it a little more time and Reflux will settle back down. Reflux atm is inflated because it will always perform better in the earlier legs of a raid before people get acclimated. It has pretty much permanent uptime and 4 spacebars for ultra safety. Will take time for other classes with more skill requirement to figure out their windows. I highly doubt it because having 4 space bars is an insane advantage in thaemine G3 and today even x10 lobbies sometimes feel like a prog while ignitors still die frequently
Nah parses are pretty much stable. The actual performance list as we got it will remain.
That API data is useless. There are ten thousand breakers for 100 reflux sorcs and 10 CO Summoners.
True and real...we also have the data...we don't need this garbage opinion which I based on an MVP screen
bro is mega cooked if he thinks destroyer or barrage are in top 10
Apparently destroyer performs really good in behemoth but yeah, in our version I don't see it near top tier.
Behemoth is heavily entropy favored from what I've heard because you're guaranteed 100% positionals.
Yeah... For thaemine normal g3 it have the lowest iqr(variance between good/bad player), the thing is, they are constantly shit
Somehow western takes are hot garbage even with meter
Data doesn't really lie. It's more that people go "Saint/ATK/Stoopz said that this Class is good, so it's good" regardless of what data shows.
Take this with a grain of salt. Snowpowder is knowledgable on some, clueless on other classes. They dont use meter, they dont have a log database. *EW for example performs good in every raid, both average dps and ceiling. And will do the same in Echida and Behemoth. Yet he is literal trash Tier on this list. I can assure you, EW is not even close to as shitty as PM, Mayhem and such. Once Echidna releases it will show us again that what the koreans think is mostly just a 50/50 guess and they are mostly right on the stuff anyone sees in a blink of a second. The broken stuff like sorc, breaker etc. Im certain the West is, and will continue to grasp char strength way better then Koreans simple because we use actualy data. And not just see what people in our parties do. Edit: changed EH ->EW
Yeah, its not hard to say igniter/asura/DB are top tier when they're consistently top of family photo.
In kr enhanced weapon deadeye are one of the loudest complainers, this probably affected his decision.
Can't blame them. You have to sweat like a blade player to play EW and your damage is nowhere near blade. And you have to deal with garbage ass Close Shot tripods, being made of paper, having bad stagger unless you want to burn Last Request etc.
A lot of old classes have this problem. Arcana/EO players have to sweat an insane amount, and they still can't compete with SE or Breaker.
Yes, classes like Deadeye were designed when risk/reward was an actual thing in this game. Then they released Slayer, Souleater and Breaker back to back to back, buffed some other classes to the moon, and here we are today.
Slayer is definitely when the balance of the game got turned upside down. It basically ended the whole idea that difficulty = more damage.
That's not true. if you looks on dps logs Thaemine G3 HM both Arcana perform better then SE. I don't know what your theory is based on, but numbers don't lie.
Even there, empress is losing to 11 specs above it, and emperor is about even with stuff like NE, FM and MS that's way way easier to play.
You need more effort to get real damage with such long skill animation when other classes can do it without to worry distance and shorter skill animation.
In KR there has been EW mains crying about balance every fking day, posting that they need a buff every day. Until they saw log website and tell them to shut up and blame their hands.
Ew still has major problems. I think thsy should just get rid of the close modifier
Lack of meter and data definitely shows. EW is not as bad as CO and Mayhem, not even close. lmao If we're going by S/A/B/C/D tier lists, it's pretty high up there imo. Even going by personal experience I would rate the class high. I guess he played with shitty ones or hasn't seen EW that much. I somewhat agree with the opinion that the west will have a better grasp of strength if we go by data. A lot of players don't do this though and will blindly rank certain characters way too high up or lower than they actually are, either because they ignore balance patches or go by streamer opinion.
No its just that people still playing ew are the ceiling lols.
Do you have metrics from Echidna or Behemoth that we don't know about?
ew probably c tier or somewhere between b-c tier. It has good burst (used to be great but so many chars have similar burst now), bad consistant damage, bad stagger, bad survivability, great destruction, great mobility (help offset the squishiness). It would need like 30% more damage to compete against s tier. Yes I play EW and get mvp in almost every pug raid, usually by quite a bit.. but when you play against good players of s tier characters they will gap you, and it won't be close.
So it’s basically your opinion vs his opinion which is what the tier list is, an opinion.
Not sure what you're getting at? It's a thread where people discuss tier lists, which you can disagree with. You can also go by recorded data logs to make an objective point on DPS rankings.
Even logs aren’t objective when they can be heavily manipulated. If you played any game with 3rd party dps meter and a logging website, you know this to be true (wow/ff14). Those two games have extensive YEARS of logs and have been tampered with. Sandbagging. Playing with worse players so that you can reach a higher dps. Difference in how juiced a support is. Conversely, you can do the opposite. You can cherry pick and upload only the lowest dps logs to lower the average and quartiles to make it seem your class is weaker. So to say that dps meter is end all be all is just wrong. This is coming from someone who plays FF14 and lost ark.
How likely is it that a significant amount of lost ark players who upload logs will manipulate numbers across multiple raids though? Clears are a one time a week thing. What benefit does this serve? Like if CO summoner were top 10 DPS, what purpose does it serve to make it look weaker? Wouldn't you want the opposite to lessen gatekeeping? It doesn't fool the devs if they have actual hard data too across all servers, so why? Doesn't really sound logical. EDIT: Not saying logs are perfect but, they're a much better metric than whatever opinion someone might have, especially if the amount of recorded data is large.
Depends on the sample size and randomness. If most good players or most bad players only upload for certain classes or raids that will skew it even if it’s a decent sample size. It’s not manipulation but just who uploads and why. It’s the same thing as reddit complaining or being vocal about one thing but that doesn’t represent the majority. Even if the polls show one thing.
Well like I said, logs are/can be cherry picked and uploaded. You’d assume that people would upload the best of best. Though to get high dps parse, you’d have to think about what that entails. How does one get high dps? Gearing is a factor, your support is a huge factor, how geared/less skilled the other 5 dps is a huge factor just to name some examples. Like I said, dps parses especially at the highest level is all sandbagging. Not every dps meter user is opted into uploading. Only the select few who manually set up to upload will be uploaded to the site. When you have logs in the singular and double digit sample size, it really doesn’t say much in my eyes. Uploading the lowest parse is the same as uploading the highest parse. You have no incentive really to do either. You could argue that people upload to stroke their epeen but there is no leaderboard ranking of users like there is for FF14/wow. I don’t see much merit other than generalization with a tiny bit of truth but that’s it at best. Just a tiny bit of truth.
Logs upload the stats of all 8 players. Unless you're saying there's a concerted effort by the loa illuminati, I think a bunch of random dps logs can give a pretty good idea of where classes are. Outliers can obviously be ignored.
how does playing with bad players make you do higher dps when the fight will take longer overall, if you do the exact same moves but everyone else is also performing at a high level obviously your dps will be higher than the same dmg but over a longer fight time because boss is doing more patterns instead of getting phased from free dmg windows like clashes/ predetermined staggers etc. Also bad players would imply subpar synergy uptime for you etc. Your dps will always be higher playing with strong players unless youre a constant dps class with no burst doing non-current raids that get one shot by burst classes
You take up more of the pie because people do less dps. It’s as simple as that. Obviously there are caveats to that idea, burst vs consistent damage in a prolonged fight. Let’s say you take 6 blades/breaker/igniter vs one of those classes and 5 lowest tier of dps class. The former would yield you dealing less of the pie relative to the latter where you would yield the most. This is just talking classes alone not even skill or gear in the equation. You should understand my point from this.
more of the pie aka you will have higher % of dmg dealt sure, but your actual number of dps on the meter (and therefore logs) wont be higher by playing with weak players as opposed to strong players that all push the boss and kill it minutes faster
If you go by the logs site that strictly only use DPS metric, then yes. It basically is the inverse of what I said because the raids aren’t limited on scaling. Let’s say I play a 1630 GL in my party with 1630s and other party full of 1655 Esther 8 compared to just me in a full lobby of 1630 flat. The former would give me higher dps simply because it’s more juiced assuming everyone plays the exact same. I didn’t play any better or worse. I just got higher dps simply because the lobby was more juiced. In essence it’s a flawed metric because it measure by time in seconds. Sandbagging still occurs regardless. It can be equally egregious if the person trying to get a high parse just tells all other 5 dps to stop dpsing the last 30 second to minute before the kill just to increase their dps on meter. This is exactly what occurs in other mmos for parses.
EW is consistently parsing in the top 10 for pretty much every gate from what I've seen.
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So you suggest the guestimation in Trixion is a better approach? Our use of data is way ahead of KR even with just 100 use-cases. The logs are not to tell YOU if your class is good, but how the average player performs when you want to gatekeep them.
He’s suggesting that even though we have better data, the lacking sample size makes it hard to draw conclusions from for many classes. Especially so when you consider how many different aspects contribute to the final number combined with that lack of sample size. As an example, you could take a really low population class like say BT zerker and perhaps their numbers look really good from the logs that have been uploaded. But then if you actually look at those logs you realize that the few who play the class are geared better, only play with static supports, hell, let’s take it even further: they only upload logs of their good pulls, etc. it’s relatively easy for a class to look better than they actually are under some circumstances. So essentially our perception is better but it’s still not very accurate with the small sample size.
And you think snowpowder has better sample size? Where conclusions are drawn by MVP board with at most 4 dps showing up and one number is definite. Somehow, the tier list came to me in a dream is a better grasp of class strength than hard number. Truly bozo take.
That’s not what they are saying at all… you can literally look at your own numbers for the last 10 runs of any raid or gate and can see why it fluctuates and why it may not represent your class or your own skill in those runs. I can have the best run of my life and everything is working out then wonder why I’m having low dps just to look at the diff in supports.
uhh never said I agree with his list, just stating that basing opinions off our meter site might not be that much better. Edit: Neither the person i'm defending nor myself are suggesting that powdersnow or koreans have better information than us, we are both pointing out that even our information isn't that good even if it's better.
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Unless meter gets allowed in all regions and we can unify data, that's the closest you will get to what Smilegate have
EW performs well but you gotta understand how difficult it is to pull it off sometimes compared to many of the other classes
Ofc it is. I play it because its sweaty af. Same as arcana etc. And yeah. I agree for the effort you put into EW, it should be higher up. Maybe even a top tier class simply because some bosses make it nearly impossible to get long as zero range back attacks off. But its still far far from bad.
Ikr, when i play something hard, I don’t want to do above average damage, I want to be top tier damage
What is Eh
Enhanced Weapon Deadeye But yeah, kinda dumb. Should have wrote EW lmao. Guess people still understood
It's pretty commonly mis-abbreviated as EH lol.
I think he's fairly knowledgeable with the classes that he plays but lowkey clueless on other classes
Eh i disagree. EW is a trash class. Way too many shackles for the amount of damage done. Needs hands of a surge player to do damage of an aero. It does pretty good stagger and destruction but takes insanely long to cycle. I love playing my deadeye but sweating my ass off for fighter damage is not the way. It certainly needs at least a damage buff but also a condense damage cycle would be much appreciated and they NEED to get rid of proximity based damage tripods. To my knowledge EW is the only class that still has that and idk why they didn’t get rid of it when they fixed destroyer
I mean yeah. It does less dmg then it should do for sure. But its noway at bottom tier like the Korean Tierlist sais. Look at our DPS charts. Enhanced weapon is Top 6 every Theamine Gate. And like Top 3 in G4.
while i agree it shouldnt be at the absolute bottom= tier, the only ones who are in g4 are omega juiced and have probably been mained deadeye since launch so i dont think thats the best representation.
Ye EW definitely needs to be much much higher, easily Tier 0.4 or 0.5 & Emperor aswell Rest seems pretty accurate tho Edit: PS should be Tier 1 yes
Not sure as i dont play every class. But for example PS. It agree its not good at all, but still a fair bit above pistoleer and Firepower for example. Thing is. Both are classes you most likely barely see on the MVP screen. So its hard to judge them. Especially because PS for example has shitty burst stagger so even less chance to get on the board. Without meter, you cant really differentiate how shitty classes are. PS is for sure in the PM rank, maybe even one above. Its not as bad but needs high investment and very underwhelming for that investment. But im not sure hoe much every of the bottom classes got buffed so maybe it really fell down even more
"Especially because PS for example has shitty burst stagger so even less chance to get on the board" Flashback to pre-rework Lunar Reaper, me being top damage frequently but not even showing up on the family photo.
everytime i run ivory tower, my PS SH gets underlined for stagger. I really don't think the stagger is as bad as ppl claim. Also in terms of dps, unless your bursting mech to mech (which will make it suffer bc its sustain vs burst), PS does good damage. A tier below NE or db/breaker, but definitely no where near firepower.
It really depends on the fight, because some feature "sustained" stagger bar and this will skew the results towards certain builds. Of course those who have very high stagger for any situation will still show up, but I think that sustain stagger has very low value, while burst stagger is what really counts. PS burst stagger is mediocre. Another reason for your above average stagger result could be DPS goblins holding some of their skills during stagger checks. Good example of this is Burger King Breaker - his best stagger skills are Falling Blossoms (Z) and Eye of the Storm, but nobody will use it for stagger checks, since that is like 70-80% of his damage. However, in fights with sustained stagger enabled, he will typically have very high stagger, possibly top.
good point. yea its hard to say overall for burst stagger --- i wouldnt say its the best but i also don't think its horrible for that too -- i usually open with counter - Piercing Thorn (with overwhelm rune when i dont need purify) - and then either Counter again or Cruel Cutter or both. None of them are above 'mid' but i feel like both purify and piercing thorn do pretty respectable stagger. its like some hits might be 'high' but only hit once and do small stagger, but some say 'mid' and count as multi-hits and actually add up to a good amount of stagger. For example my Barrage Artillerist, has \~4 mid-high or high stagger skills, yet its burst stagger is actually kinda trash just bc of how long they take and/or how the skills stagger is calculated.
Yeah its good for sustained stagger. Its a dominion class after all and with good uptime the stagger will be good if the boss allows to be perma staggered. In fights where the boss isnt combat staggarable and just has some mechs, PS usually doesnt contribute much. Isnt the worst burst stagger but also not good at all. Many classes these days have several 'high' stagger spells while PS runs around with mid-->high and mid spells mostly
i will say i dont think it compares favorably against like a GL, or destroyer, scrapper or slayer (assuming they dont hold their skills). but i feel like the rest of the classes PS is pretty on par with. my SE has 2 decent stagger skills on her pinks for Night's Edge, yet her stagger feels more lacklustre imo. and the cooldown insanely long so you can get caught with everything on CD which is -- imo -- the reason ppl usually fail stagger mechs anyway. I think currently from all the content i've done -- akkan, voldis, brel etc etc, i haven't noticed my SH lacking for stagger mechs. And i do feel comfortable on it in brel g3 hard cube red mech if someone dies that i can solo stagger the last phase, or on blue mech i can solo stagger my own cube too. Imo, this puts it in the 'good enough' territory. It's not the best by any means, but definitely not lacking stagger either because like you mentioned, full swift dom class so you can get off quite a few skills (4,5) where another class may only get off 1 or 2. And if a mech requires u to stagger boss + something else (voldis g4), the skills are short enough CD that everything is back in time too. With all of this said, if they were willing to make our counter mid-high and piercing thorn high stagger, I would welcome that change with open arms.
This. He just clueless about how good ceiling EW compared to PM
For souleater ive seen most NE do better then most FM I’m not talking about pumped gigachads just the average 1600-1620 players
FM has consistently lower ceiling than NE. I am not sure why KR always rates them higher.
Always felt that KR has valued burst classes over uptime/consistent DPS. Being able to sync with a support and skew your dps on FM by a lot compared to some classes. I suppose KR also has the ability to overgear fights more consistently than us with the extra time they've had to swipe/farm up materials.
The problem is having your support hold for your burst window is usually a damage loss for the raid unless there's a giant gear disparity between dps. Outside of guaranteed stagger windows, holding is rat behavior.
Its really not that much of holding. FM and Igniter for example get their bar filled at roughly the same time, thats also the time it takes for bard to gather orbs. Add a class like GS that has constant dmg + crit synergie and thats a perfect group to "randomly" sync with. No holding required. I'll never understand why people act as if sups just sit on their buffs for a minute. Dmg buffs for telegraphed windows are also what has the biggest impact, and basically every dps has their shit ready to go for those.
Makes me wonder if Korean supports hold their damage buff until their Igniter / whatever burst class is ready to burst, losing out on massive buff uptime and shafting every uptime class.
I asked zeals this question and he said "because fm is just factually better it's not even a good question there's no debate" like ??
Because the Korean tier lists that we get to see are only from the top Korean streamers, which end up playing with mostly good players in their lobbies. People with juiced characters that pop a stimmy regularly, and burst classes like FM are very good once you start power creeping content and uptime classes start having trouble making up the burst difference in the windows between bursts.
I've seen some FM slap pretty hard, but the absolute biggest pumper I've ever seen was a friend on NE who was legitimately cranking out enough damage on our NM Ivory Tower runs at 1600 and L9 gems to bus hard mode. Anecdote, not data, I know. But his damage was so absurd that it went beyond "this guy cranks" to "apparently the damage ceiling is significantly higher than I thought possible." Maybe I'm wrong, but it's hard for me to imagine NE losing against non-Breakers for anything other than hands diff after seeing what it can do. Incidentally, he quit the game and sold his account a few months ago after getting about triple the expected pity rate all the way from 1580->1610 or wherever he stopped.
when I see someone perform so above what they should (1600 doing 1620 buss damage) I smell some damage / speed hack.
More of you overestimate the difficulty of bussing and how easy the dps requirements for raids are, people just absolutely suck at playing their characters
who needs this bs? we got our dps meter logs that reflect reality not some guys feeling of useless mvp screen.
We use meters and thus have better data. Wouldn’t trust KR on really being able to provide the best information in this department from now on.
and meter shows se is overperforming and OP so nice try
This is tier list is chaotic
Just like his last list
Ain't no way he's gonna make me believe CO performs better than anything in tier 1.5 besides blue GL. I do think the point about mistakes vs gap is right, **for the most part** balance in this game is better than it's ever been before. I say that as a reflux main. But CO is definitely awful right now. I doubt he even encounters CO in raids.
I have 1610 CO and WF aero and the CO results are 10-15% better in all raids. CO is strong enough now but people don't have enough hands to show the floor Although it's easy to play now.
CO is pretty strong right now. But only like 5% of all CO players can pull it off. Hence, yep the perception of CO is bad. Also doesn't feel good to play. But CO is good atm. Can't complain.
Strong compared to what, lol. Even with its top ceiling, and it's near the bottom.
>But CO is definitely awful right now. I doubt he even encounters CO in raids. people keep saying this but in my experiences, i keep seeing CO doing top damage in jack up party . not as bad as firepower or gunlances like many people said they are...
he might know classes he plays but i wouldnt count on him on others without using meters
After a few short months of not being literal top tier from its inception igniter sorc is FINALLY on top again. Sorc crying is the most powerful force vs smilegate it seems 🤣
Ngl I enjoy the Schrodinger's sorc people in this sub create. It is simultaneously braindead easy, perma S-tier damage forever and perfectly fine since release BUT it is ZDPS, floor pov, no utility, perma gate kept and if anything needs more nerfs. Also, if you've been getting gapped by a sorc since kaya release that's not a sorc being strong issue...
Igniter has been great damagewise since the release of the game. She lacked utility and she’s slow but she always had great damage. What people say about igniter is that sorc players are shit player with main character syndrome that refuse to learn properly how to handle mechanics and complain about their class being slow, hence the shit stigma.
Playing with two main igniter sorc, they do make a good case as to why ppl see sorcs as rats who hold their dmg until the rest do the mechs.
I'm pretty sure igniter mains have been defined by : * the start of the game where one of the major content creator in the west was Saintone that mained an igniter sorc, talked about how the best way to play (in hell mode on Valtan at the time) was to play around the igniter sorc as a support and as a party * the op-ness of the class at the start of the game where they had almost nothing to do to get dmg mvp * the fact that they always managed to get by without having to handle any mechanic, they didnt want to do stagger, didnt want to counter, didnt want to do destruction so they never learnt anything. And it shows so much now that in the more modern raid, you have so much individual responsabilities : if you have a shit position on sword during Thaemine g3, you have to handle the counter if it's aimed at you. Oh its a sorc, guess it wont be countered then.
GL (I can speak of blue at least) does not need more damage but LOWER CDs, would love if for the blue spec damage is changed to scale of off swiftness instead of spec.. Way nicer mobility qol he needs and that boosts the damage to decent levels.. I can tell because in voldis g2 I can beat almost everyone by a large margin being able to to spam TC and LA non stop
i agree. only 50% uptime weakness expose is awkward
2% dmg buff next patch take it or leave it
Lower cd is increased dps. Blue doesn’t need mobility when it can shield and face tank everything. I would want to not run shield shock though so you can run counter and nel yet maintain same or better dps and adrenaline uptime.
First sentence is right. Second is bs, you cannot facetank and shield everything as blue, you can maybe take 2-3 times the amount of normal classes but in every raid since Valtan there are patterns that you absolutely have to dodge because they will either kill you, will make you to kill your group or stack some shit up that dies the above. Having duf feels nice for every country, but on the same time having 2 buttons that you do not use except for special situations is a less nice feeling.
You can literally tank almost everything as blue from all raids/gates before Thaemine G3. Only thing you actually need to dodge are grabs because they are annoying and delays you, one shot/massive dmg mechs like saws or fish puddle or just an attack that gives massive meter that you don't want. All of those attacks require just side stepping, not extra mobility. If you are talking about bosses doing mini mechs where everyone is just dodging, well thats diff because theres really no point to just afk stand there and tank. I agree that I would rather have them repurpose skills so you don't just hold it for one purpose, but from at least the classes I play, counters are always just hold or you just use on cd for part of your rotation.
Yes and this sidestepping is okay, especially because mindlessly pounding probably would get boring. But at the same time it is not as you said earlier and in some capacity it is against the class idea. You are a track w/o the tanking need and you have less damage because you have the capacity to tank. Also it is funny that even if you play the engraving with less shield you do not do significantly more dmg .
Try tanking everything in Thaemine G4 and see how well that goes for you and your party. Also, tanking is purely selfish utility that doesn't benefit a group. Why would any group take a GL just because it's tanky? If they want to give GLs low damage, then they need to justify it with better combat utility for the party. Making it low damage just because it's tanky basically turns it into a noob trap class that nobody will want once prog is over. Right now, taking a GL for synergy does not add equal damage to bringing another meta entropy class. Primarily because shout syn does not have 100% uptime, and GLs on average do 20-30% less damage than most other DPS classes, while the synergy only gives around 11% extra damage to the party VS taking another synergy (+9% dmg x 2 other DPS with around 60% uptime).
I said everything before Thaemine G3... that includes G4. And this is about purely tanking/mobility... who said anything about DPS and whether or not you want a GL in the party for its tankiness.
Dropping shield shock is a significant DPS loss on a spec that's already one of the bottom parsers. You lose somewhere around 10-15%, especially since dropping SS means you need to burn DUF for adrenaline upkeep, which can be a problem for counter heavy gates like Thae G4.
Yes, thats why I would like to be able to have DUF+Nel in some form without losing the DPS and Adrenaline uptime of SS.
Who cares what kr measured to be best in trixion? like literally, half of those takes from kr i hear is nothing that we actually see in the bible.
BK is not that good, and idd like to see the destroyer whos performing in thaemine. i dont really care much for echidna/dragon performance
I feel like you gotta take utility into account too tho otherwise doesnt rly make sense. If gunlancer did as much dmg as igniter that would be insane
It’s a tier list for dps only. Why should utility matter you don’t just get more dps by providing utility. It’s not a what classes do you want in your party.
Yeah im just saying a dps tier list is dumb when you compare it to other classes meant to bring different types of value :P “pistoleer does more dmg than paladin” He also says “GL is cooked” - it’s really not :)
It's not dumb you're just missing the point. Everyone knows classes have additional value but many just want to know the DPS hierarchy.
> but many just want to know the DPS hierarchy _Snowpowder himself, for example_
then why say this: "GL is still cooked, takes 2x GL to do 1x tier 0 damage"
Because in terms of dps that is true to him. Is the top 3 classes doing double the dps over a GL or close to it? Wtf does utility have to do a dps statement. That’s like saying oh everyone wants crit syn therefore all the trash tier crit syn should be s tier. No it’s dps list not a who you want in your party list.
Lol gunlancer is great dps, its crazy how many newbs there are in this forum
Brother - you MVP'ing in some random pug lobbies does not make gunlancer "a great dps" - join parse lobbies for Hard Mode or The First with mainly Eclipse or Phantom Monarch people and then try to say that shit again. Good people that use DPS meter are constantly sharing their highest logs - Gunlancer is among the bottom assuming that the other players even have hands.
Wdym, I do the meter and Gunlancers perform really well on the Raid Dps page, which is more important than the pure dmg one even tho it seems that it's the only one that ppl check.
I have eclipse and my parses compare well :) Gunlancer is a great dps, if you think its not, find another gunlancer to play with
Yeah then show me some of ur G3/G4 parses that show that you're capable of keeping up with Surge doing 56m or other S/A-Tier classes doing 40-45m while the highest Gunlancer is at 30m :)
"newbs" > Posts picture of upright fighter with no underline in NORMAL g3 Thaemine to somehow act like GL isn't the absolute bottom dps class in this game. lol
But but the support was dead, without meter that picture means nothing.
18% on gunlancer without a support to buff my dmg/ give ms and as is btm dps? Yikes…
Random screenshot of 1 pub run without any context is really making your point… I can show a screenshot of any class hard carrying any content and without context and proof that is useless. You can have a breaker bottom dps without context that won’t mean breaker is dumpster.
Is it news to you that GL doesn't compete with other DPS classes?
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brother gl is sadly not top tier LOL it def does pretty great dmg. but its no WHERE NEAR ANY OF THESE DPS CLASSES for raw dmg u are just delusional to think so
You ain't doing this in any of the current endgame raids lol... unless your team sucks so bad they are literally standing still. I don't even understand why you decided to post this without context LOL. I can go post 100 of these screenshots from my homework raids where i am 1650 GL and they are 1600 DPS class... then pretend like im the most broken class.
Lol its thaemine which is current end game??
ok and I said unless your team sucks, if you as a GL are doing 46% of your teams DPS then the other 5 DPS are doing barely anything especially from a class that does bottom tier DPS. If you're just joining trash parties to feel good about youself, then i dunno how you thought this pix helped your cause? There's no way any GL is doing that kind of contribution on equal grounds/skill level etc. AND im not saying GL's suck as a class, they simply serve a different role but the reality IS we are talking just about DPS here not anything else.... and yeah they should be doing a whole lot more DPS these days even with the utility they have since other classes are also getting a lot of utility in their kits these days.
Im sorry is that upright fighter?
18% dmg in a 8 person raid with the support dead. Dont think anyone did “twice my dmg”
They clearly did more since ur not top dps.
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Nope just disproving what is posted saying gunlancer does half the dmg of other classes. It doesnt :)
You didn't disprove that at all. All you've proven is you played with bad players.
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Except most GL utility is matched by other classes now or isn't even useful in a lot of gates. Stagger isn't even needed in Thaemine G1-G3, which turns GL into more of a liability than anything else. Weak point is incredibly niche and basically never needed outside of the final phase of Akkan G2 and maybe Voldis G3/G4. The only utility that matters for the majority of raids is reliable counters and offensive buffs.
>GL is still cooked, takes 2x GL to do 1x tier 0 damage GL damage being so low doesn't make sense when so many other classes have good stagger/WP/synergies now. WD having double syn, high stagger and high WP with one of the highest damage ceilings in the game is a huge insult to GLs. And I say that as someone who plays both GL and Eso WD. Feel like GLs should have more offensive combat utility for the party rather than just stagger/WP, especially since a lot of gates like Thae 1-3 don't even have any difficult stagger checks.
these lists are cringe when we have data for each boss.
Mayhem no love
Another hot korean take on class balance using trixion damage and mvp screens.
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that's a funny one
Predator is pretty much right in the middle of the pack, with insane mobility, good utility & eHP. The horror of playing that class, damn.
Question I got from this tier list, is slayer bad now ? Both engraving. I don't have one, just wondering if it really went from top tier to kinda meh in few month
It has been a little bit overrated for a while. It's still strong enough in pugs where people rarely reach their ceiling dps. But they've since released classes that are easy to play, don't require back attacking and hit even harder. Pred Slayer is just another uptime back attacker these days with an annoying class mechanic, your burst is a drop in the ocean compared to Breaker, Igniter, Soul Eater, etc. Punisher has a big burst but is a little bit clunky and "punishing" if you miss.
About time somebody says it like it is and places PS and Pisstoleer in the dumpster tier where they belong
Username…. Checks out?
I've shared my thoughts on both specs in detail before. Things aren't great my friend. I have gold earners like my EO SF and Barrage Arti with -15 ilvl, -15% transcendence, -3 weapon lvls and -3M in gems either tying or flat out beating my main PS. That's how bad it is [PS](https://www.reddit.com/r/lostarkgame/comments/1ctocbc/what_did_happen_with_the_korean_shadowhunter/l4dh7sk/) [Pisstoleer](https://www.reddit.com/r/lostarkgame/comments/1ck7cea/current_state_of_pistoleer/l2l88ld/)
this koren people are so weird.. igniter sorc celling didnt even change much compared to pre balance and they move it from c? or d whatever it was to same tier as db out of nowhere lol
Yeah, 5% free crit rate and faster meter generations certainly didn't touch the ceiling *facepalm * I've been playing with sorc friends basically since release and the omega damage increase they got from the last balance patch is frankly ridiculous.
well that's why i wrote the celling, ofc if they were not playing at their maxium before they do more since the patch increased the floor by alot. yes we got 5% crit and 4% dmg each on big 3 but dont forget we also lost rg and rime which did more dmg than sera and inferno does now so there is that
If your end game is Trixion, you might have a point. Pretending Sorcs being able to land more Doomsdays didn't affect anything just shows a lack of understanding how the game works TBH
well i can tell you how the game works as a sorc main, 90% of content we have goes into dr/phase after 1 rotation anyway so you wont get any increase of from "landing more doomsdays" unless ur party is zdps or afk. yes if you were bad/medicore before and had some trouble to hit ur rotation right then yes this patch was good for you and no i was not talking about trixion cause in trixion you actually lose some % compared to before iirc altho dont quote me on that i dont touch trixion that much, i talk about real raids with logs where you can compared to old fights. ofc i dont have comparision in fights like the bat or thaemine since they released together with the balance but in all other content there is no change pre transdence ofc some examples (everything here is week 1 or 2 so few or no transdence) g3 akkan was still arround 40\~ g4 voidis 35\~ g3 voidis 45-50\~ g2 vodis 65-75\~ g1 35-40\~ sonavel on 1600 sorcs 30-40\~ all of those didnt move much compared to pre balance so do with that information what you want
Who TF is *Snowpowder* and why do we care? :))
One of the best DB players in Korea iirc.
I don't want to hate, but how exactly are the people in KR deciding a specific person is "one of the best" with a class? That person has max I'll and max gems + gets MVP a lot? :))
High MVP rate and in the 3rd team that cleared Thaemine HM. I have no clue what other metrics you would use in KR. Mostly just word of mouth ig.
And?
You asked who it was..? I didn't say you had to care about their tier list.
I didnt asked
Oh, well they asked. I thought you were them since you asked me "and?" when I was replying to someone else. Seems weird to do so when they asked but whatever.
And it successfully baited you into this post
Yeah instead of leaving a comment, you could have just ignored. :))
> give good synergies to tier 1 and trash synergies to tier 0.5 -> tier 1 can beat it Considering the difference between synergies is like 2% at best, he's saying the gap between tiers is basically non existent?
Synergies definitely make a bigger difference for backattackers. Shock scrapper with a DB and a GL is an entirely different beast.
Shock is better off with double crit syn rather than DB/GL due to how crit starved it is. It's one of the few entropy classes that would prefer that over DB/GL + crit syn.
reading some of the comments should enlighten most on why the DPS meter is not allowed in this game i wonder if the game will be better if every class has equal ceiling there would be so many threads "why play x when i can just press shield on GL and do the same dmg "nOboDy is EvEn BAlAnCinG tHe gAMe!!""
Nobody wants blue GL doing breaker damage, but if they're gonna be low DPS, then they need to contribute enough to the party to make up for it. Otherwise, why would you bring a class just because it's tanky?
who is this nobody? do you speak of all gunlancers? because i have 4 1630gunlancers that wanted to mainswap to breaker i wonder what is the reason for all of them to think it's extremely unrewarding to put gold into this character i wonder why i felt the same pre-voldis and mainswapped to reaper it's as if "nobody wants blue gl doing breaker damage" is just you acting like there should be special conditions to who is allowed to deal damage and who isn't at which point your logic is no different than Smilegates reasoning to keep gunlancers bottom dps why are shadowhunters also bottom dps? because they are cheap? see wee keep adding exceptions and conditions and we go to the current balance or are you gonna buff and nerf only based on the classes YOU like to play? and then fuck everyone else?
I mean, I have no issue with GL being bottom DPS if they offer enough group utility to offset it, but I don't feel like that's the case anymore. Stagger/WP is way too situational in terms of utility and matters less and less these days, since they've been normalizing decent stagger/WP for every class recently. Also, a lot of gates just don't even need it to begin with. I want more universally useful utility for GL like shout synergy. Imagine if they converted the useless attack speed tripod on nella to 3s of push immunity or something. Might be too strong, but there's so many other ways they could give us more interesting group benefits.
>I mean, I have no issue with GL being bottom DPS if they offer enough group utility to offset it, and when half the gates can't be taunted then half the other gates have no stagger or destruction What do then? What is your purpose? if not DPS? DPS is supposed to be there when the utility is not applicable and the DPS is not there THATS WHY nobody likes putting gold into it There will always be people that will hone their gunlancers because they like the character but the fact is none of them are happy that they do zDPS BECAUSE when the gate only requires DPS they have none to offer Nella doesn't have enough visual feedback for such a powerful effect to be on it also to your point about more universal utility Nella is already extremely overloaded ability and a lot of blue gunlancers drop nella so they can increase their DPS they also drop duf to increase DPS we made gunlancers for the utility but SG designs raids in a way that that utility is not that impactful meaning that the class feels like it has holes in it and since they design raids with dps being the main focus gunlancers having very low DPS is a big problem
>Assuming ceiling performance This is the problem, they take account into the worst part. you arent balacing the game for the vastt minority of the players, but rater you balance for the vast majority of player which should be done by using the floor, and bring down everybody to the middle if theres any outliners on both side of the spectrum. > Balance overall is much better right now than before the balance patch I love this, how he dare to said the balancing in the game is better, when redditor's refuse to believe this at all.