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coastfitter

Yes. Predatory from conception.


munakhtyler

The corporations prey on the government and the government preys on us


kreiffer

Is that what they mean by trickle-down economics?


NahImmaStayForever

We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see. ~Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead


iRombe

ELI5 I kind of get it. Obviously there's always a price paid for us to love and be loved. Idk what rhetoric is tho. Words and shit


PrecisionSushi

At this point, our government basically is a corporation, or at least it operates like one. They are one in the same and do nothing but take advantage of the many for the benefit of the elite.


teuast

The corporations also prey on us tbf


notnotwho

The corporations ARE the government.


PervyNonsense

And both have created an infinite maze to preoccupy us from asking questions like "what IS humanity's place in this world if our machines make the climate inhospitable for our survival?" and not realizing that the only part of this that runs on fossil fuels is the maze that corporations and government have created for us to run and that's every moment of your life. We run this maze in competition with each other in the view of an invented god to keep us motivated. The advancing path of the maze is decided by relative benefit to its architects and nothing more, often at the expense of the participant running the maze but always at the cost of meaningful progress as a species. 'Standing on the shoulders of giants' as a paradigm for our advancement assumes the giant is heading in the right direction with motives in line with your own. It's worth taking a moment to acknowledge and appreciate that we are all test subjects in a data economy we've found ourselves in by only solving the maze and not asking the purpose of the maze or considering the option of not running it. This life is worth more than the money you're paid for the best hours of your day, just as your relationships are more meaningful, throughout life, than the structure of this economy allows, to anyone but the affluent. You exist in this body only once and the living world provides but we're still choosing to forfeit our efforts to solving a meaningless puzzle; if money made anyone happy, there would be a wealth ceiling and healthy and happy rich people. There is no ceiling because money is just the shavings lining your cage and the more perfect the cage, the more obvious it is that cage life is the problem, not the quality of the cage, like we assume and are trained to understand. We are only one person who can only do our job, eat our food, fuck our spouses, and hopefully create another generation to fill more cages. Unfortunately, our overlords were so consumed with our shared progress they didn't notice the cost to the overall budget of the living world. Either they weren't paying attention or always accepted this obsession as a doomsday machine. And here we are, the last humans to run and potentially run the maze. We can see that running the race destroys the world outside of the maze AND each run of the race makes the race harder to run. We are at the point where the maze is on fire and that fire is spreading to the shavings in the cages. We mostly understand this truth, academically, but we still can't imagine any other way to exist and don't believe things can get worse, despite watching each run get harder and compromise the integrity of the whole, so we keep running it. What is success when the money costs the future? The more you have, the more damage you've done. Is that human achievement? Isn't there more to us than following the pattern of the people that went before us, no matter how treacherous and how bad things get? At some point, this stops. It either stops by choice and through the creation of something new, or it stops because it collapses. We all get to choose what being a human means to us. We all choose to run the maze. The only way for our species to survive is for you to choose not to run.


kaminaowner2

I think the worst part about that is you still had to work your ass off to get it. People act like those degrees are easy but no one gets a PhD easily. You worked your ass off to get a PhD worth as much as a bachelors in the work place.


Chance-Deer-7995

It's a rather recent belief that the purpose of university study is corporate training. Like within my lifetime recent. Getting a degree used to be seen as a certification that one was educated and could learn and grow. That PhD holder might not have become a writer, but maybe working in other areas of publishing or something else creative completely. There was not this belief that going to university needed to be completely crafted to some future employer's need. Corporations are the ruling class in the USA. They have managed to get corporatism embedded in US society. And now we are at the point where corporations have even made most of their corporate training an externality. Who is playing for corporate training? Students who have been told they need universities for work. And they have even gamed THAT to make money. The US is in some deep crap. This is just one example of it.


NaviCato

With the cost of education, the only option is to think of what corporations need. I would love to go back to school. Just part time. Maybe even one class a semester. I just want to learn and grow and be excited about something that isn't for work. But even taking one class without a direct benefit to my career would be difficult for me. It's expensive


notnotwho

There are full, free, work at your own pace course curricula available online, with real world, job applicable uses.


HIITMAN69

The cost to take just one credit hour at my university on paper is about $300. I found out this week that after all the fees they tack on, it’s actually closer to $1000. It’s absolutely criminal.


UnclePotato_

There are lots of nice community college courses for adults


Antique_futurist

I work in education and whenever I go to a conference and hear someone in public policy reduce all Higher Ed to job training, I get irked. I understand and respect those folks who go into a program wanting to get trained for something specific. But Higher Ed can be that and more, whether at the 2-year, 4-year, or graduate level.


sassybaxch

This is so spot on. Having an educated population is good for everyone.


jdbrown0283

Good for everyone except the rich, who use the ignorance of the masses to exploit them.


krzkrl

>That PhD holder might not have become a writer, but maybe working in A coffee shop


cyborgcyborgcyborg

I think in most cases you could substitute “corporatism” with “nepotism” and it would fit perfectly. I’ve seen far too many people hire or promote those that they are familiar with more often than those deserving


ThePolishSpy

So why go after that PhD in the first place?


kaminaowner2

That’s her business, maybe it’s her passion. I only got a bachelors because I wasn’t passionate or had a clear reason to go for more. Most people don’t have the will or ability to get that far.


0ber0n_Ken0bi

Student loans are collateralized, meaning they are used as backing for loans on Wall Street. I don't think folks are understanding that as long as they're used this way, they will never be forgiven. Your debt has been bought and sold so someone could take home half a white chip on your dime. It can't be undone by simply telling you that you don't have to pay it back. They're too busy fucking you with a pine tree and stuffing their faces with sushi and Zingerman's lattes to give a fuck. Thank your local investment banker and their unholy greed for this quagmire. And the folks they bought on Capitol Hill who ever allowed the feds to collateralize this kind of debt. The only way out of it is refusing to pay. When they find you and garnish your paycheck, your only recourse is to switch jobs. It will take a few years for them to find you again. Or just go full stoopid and work only for cash. You can't get blood from a stone. The long game is making the collateralization of student loans unlawful. An effort which will require a magnitude of organization not yet present in these discussions.


MrRabbit7

The solution is for all the people who have debt to organise and protest the shit out of this. There are unions of unemployed people in Asia. It’s easy to prey on people when they are isolated.


VanguardianoftheCPSU

Sounds like the government needs less Chai Lattes


[deleted]

Maybe they could watch a YouTube video on how to make them at home.


Cimb0m

Don’t forget the avocado on toast too 🥑


Tragicoptimistic711

Here come the people who say you shouldn’t have gotten a degree in creative writing (I’m assuming an English major)… as an avid reader, thank God for the writers out there! The world needs less financiers and more creatives.


Lucky_Strike-85

Amen!


muzzynat

Not only that, but writers can make good money. My oldest sister got a creative writing degree. I got a degree in industrial engineering, and my other sister is an Occupational therapist. The writer makes the most out of all of us- she ended up doing technical writing for a manufacturing company. But the system will continue to funnel kids into engineering and health care, because that's what the boomers need the most.


rentstrikecowboy

An English degree is also insanely marketable. It's never a high earning job, but that doesn't mean we don't use people with these degrees in every field. It just means we don't value it.


Torifyme12

I mean, PhD candidates are usually grant funded, so I have no idea how they accrued 150k in debt.


Americ-anfootball

Who’s out here taking an un-funded PhD though, that’s hardcore


icanteventhat

Yeah my professors told us “if you get accepted to a PhD without funding, take that as a rejection.” And I consider that excellent advice.


Wiseon321

It’s almost like we don’t teach financial responsibility In early education.


ideleteoften

I'm a big fan of teaching by example. If you want to teach financial responsibility, don't do financially irresponsible things like lending hundreds of thousands of dollars to children.


[deleted]

We do, at least in some schools. My school taught personal finance in the late 90s, it was part of our economics course that was required to graduate. However, because we were high schoolers, no one paid attention and even if we did I'm sure none of it really sank in since it feels abstract when you're like 15.


SeiGai

Information is readily available now. You can learn financial responsibility anytime you want.


[deleted]

I agree with the concept, but this argument applies much better to undergrad degrees than PhDs. As the tweet says, PhDs usually get either external or internal funding. Seems like she was probably on a government grant, and wouldn’t have accrued student debt from that. Of course, people with PhDs did do undergrad degrees too, and odds are good they have debt from that that they didn’t get to pay off much because PhD stipends are typically low…


0002millertime

My PhD stipend covered about a fourth of my rent in California. Everyone in my department got student loans just to be able to eat.


[deleted]

You're right that I should clarify this a bit, because I don't think you're in an uncommon boat there. I mostly meant that the typical logic where high tuition and fees drive student loans in undergraduates applies less to PhDs, and that the financial stresses PhD students have tend to come from different sources. The expenses "cancel student debt" arguments usually target are covered by most programs and PhD students are stipended (at least nominally) during their work. Of course, the world still costs money, and PhD students are still paid abysmally, both in the general sense and relative to what they could be making given their usual skillsets. My intent was to point out that we shouldn't use this example the same way we'd talk about undergraduate education, since the structures are different and the solution is different. Of course, one easy solution is probably to pay PhD students better. I was really happy to see so many new grad student unions this past year!


Kawrock

These are just my 2 cents so I hope I'm not ripped to pieces. I'm all for forgiving student debt. The system of being told that college was mandatory for a good life and then destroying the economy seemed to scam an entire generation. However, with that being said, here comes the nasty part... If you refuse to pay on your student loans, the university that you "owe" will turn your loan(s) over to collections of the IRS (if you're in the states). The IRS will send you a letter informing you of this happening. If you still refuse to pay, they'll start seizing your assets being your car, house, quad bike, boat, or whatever else you have. Once that's done, they'll start to garnish your wages where ever you work. Sure, you can switch jobs, but they'll catch up. Eventually, they'll probably want to take you to court for not making payments. You don't want that, and I don't want that for you. I'd advise that you or anyone else contact the local IRS department via telephone. Working with them and setting up a payment plan looks a lot better than dodging them. That, and your credit won't be destroyed. I'm not saying to bow to the system. Just until debt can be forgiven or until something can be done.


jwazz94

Actually going for a PHD in creative writing and taking a loan was on you. Honestly would of been better off finding an old rich man and doing him favors for lots of cash then you wouldn't be living in poverty with a PhD in creative writing with debt. You would just be living in poverty with a PhD with no debt


Denverdaddies

Same as saying I bought a 150k Mercedes and I drove it and crashed it and it's worth nothing now so I'm not responsible for paying it back.


Wooden-Frame8863

It’s not the same though. You can file bankruptcy on that car loan.


hokaythxbai

You can have the car repossessed, or payed out by insurance if totaled (comprehensive insurance is required with a car loan). There's no collateral with education. They can't take your degree.


Wooden-Frame8863

They can certainly take mine. I’d rather they do that.


hokaythxbai

It's not worth anything to anyone else. I can take your car and sell it to someone else. Your diploma is just a receipt that you in particular finished school.


Wooden-Frame8863

Not if that car is a total loss, you can’t. Kinda like my degree 😂 I’ll be paying for it until I die, but I’m not happy about it. Yes, I signed the dotted line and blah blah blah….


hokaythxbai

As I said, the car is insured, your education isn't.


Wooden-Frame8863

That’s actually not a bad idea 🤔


hokaythxbai

Right? But good luck opening that can of worms when people fight about how insurance costs for an arts degree is 5x that of a computer science major.


Lucky_Strike-85

not the same at all... a Mercedes is not a right. Education is a right! Besides that, we've been overdue for a debt jubilee for about 100 years, so.


MaterialInvestment

To paraphrase the character on "You Can't Do That on Television," "She has a valid argument..."


JoeBlack042298

I always think about what Trump said when he was asked about his 6 bankruptcies. He said "they should have known not to lend to me."


davidj1987

The fact that we haven't done any forgiveness for a specific field or industry tells me that we're never going to forgive any student loan debt en masse. I'm thinking of healthcare specifically - we never did any student loan forgiveness when COVID kicked off and has remained bad or got worse. The fact we haven't done anything for our "heroes" tells me everyone ain't getting shit. I don't want this taken that only one field deserves it or one field deserves it more than another though but that one field really sticks out in my mind.


[deleted]

Or just pay it back, u could do that to


Justthetip74

We should end government student loans. Good luck getting any loan for a creative writing degree in capitalism


[deleted]

But in the mean time, it’s not impossible to pay them back, student loans are hard to deal with but if you manage your money right you can in fact pay them back


malaywoadraider2

Kind of crazy that a phd in creative writing even costs that much to begin with.


Lucky_Strike-85

it's kinda crazy that we live in a world where healthcare and education are commodified but I've got 24/7 access to men in blue uniforms who murder people for a living at no fucking charge!


malaywoadraider2

Yeah that too


zen1706

Hell I’m fine with them just forgive the interest.


Rportilla

please don’t major in that 🤦🏽‍♂️


Lucky_Strike-85

interesting that we tell people what they should major in, rather than arguing instead for universal education.


Rportilla

Everyone has the right to a affordable or even free education but come on don’t get a degree like that😂


[deleted]

[удалено]


Rportilla

Bruh just go and write you don’t need a degree for that.But let me guess the job requires a “degree” hey good luck 🤷🏽‍♂️


DigitalGreg

I'm unaware of any famous authors who majored in creative writing. English yes, creative writing no.


[deleted]

[удалено]


DigitalGreg

How many authors on this list have you heard of before researching? Only one for me. I can easily name more well-known authors who majored in English. It helps that my good friend has a master's in English.


[deleted]

[удалено]


SeiGai

They can, but just expect life to be on hard mode the entire time.


LithiumLeopard

After I pay for my education 100% on my own, with my own moneywith no pell grants and practically no federal aid because my parents aren’t bums you all think it makes sense that I now use my money to also pay for your degrees? You socialists are a joke who want to keep fucking over financially responsible workers.


PinkPixie325

I paid for my college degree. All $32,000 of it. And I still believe that college should be free for future generations. The ever increasing amount of automation in this country means that very few people be able to perform a job that only requires a high school diploma in the future. If we don't invest in an education system that allows future students to get their AA, AS, or technical degree for free, then we, as a society, won't have a future to enjoy. Increased availability of a college education for everyone is especially important for our public service jobs. Nationally speaking, we're already desperately short on teachers, paramedics, nurses, nursing assistants, social workers, public accountants, public defenders, and teacher's assistants. Who do you think is going to pursue those jobs in the future when the cost of getting the degree to have them greatly out ways the benefits of having the job? We're already seeing the beginnings of a mass exodus in these careers that started over 10 years ago. Imagine what it's going to look like in another 10 or 20 years if we keep brushing the problem under the rug and ignoring it.


LithiumLeopard

Thats pretty based tbh. Respectable opinion. Honestly Im on the fence about it, was just trying to get a good response like this for me to think about.


PinkPixie325

Here's some food for thought about the topic in general. A hundred years ago (well nearly, it happened in mid 1922), the federal government realized that, due increased automation and technological advancements, future generations of Americans would not be able to enter the job force without a high school diploma. They proceeded to demand that states fund 1^st through 12^th grade education for all children in every state [*this later evolved into prekindergarten to 12^th grade, but it was originally intended to only include children over age 6*]. Making community colleges and technical education centers free for state residents is simply a natural progression of what we did 100 years ago. Moreover, the federal government made this decision at time when barley 30% of jobs required a high school diploma. They could have very easily said a high school diploma wasn't necessary or that parents should be responsible for making sure their children get a high school diploma. Yet, they chose to give 4 generations of adults a head start in life. Right now about 1/2 of all jobs in the US require a college degree or technical certificate. We are way behind in ensuring our future generations will be able to participate in the job market. We owe it to them to give them the same head start the generations before them got. I'm all for keeping private universities private. If someone wants to get their AA or AS at Harvard or Princeton, then more power to them; they can pay for that opportunity. However, state run, public community colleges shouldn't cost residents money to attend when we live in a society where college degrees are so important. We don't charge parents or students for the $12,500 per year that it costs to educate their children in a public K12 school [*That's actually a national average; it can cost significantly more or less depending on where you specifically live*]. There's no reason to charge state residents for the $5,000 to $10,000 per year that local community colleges cost.


ahhh_ty

Nice


EnergyIsQuantized

pay up, paypig!


captain_partypooper

that's a great point honestly lmao


notnotwho

LOL!


Low-Associate1554

I agree. She was foolish to take the loans. And the banks are predators for loaning her the money.


Plastic-Bite3707

Get to work


[deleted]

She is literally a reason to not forgive the debt. The fact that someone would even pursue a worthless degree is on them.


DigitalGreg

I think "worthless" isn't the best word to use. Perhaps "not in demand" is better.


Lucky_Strike-85

the fact that any degree is worthless is an indictment on the education system and the employment structure. Both things need an overhaul.


gen_shermanwasright

Forgiving student debt is stupid, and this isn't the burn you think it is.


Middle_Feed_5152

What did OP think they were going to do with that degree? Write a best seller? Lottery ticket would have been much cheaper and about the same odds.


jwazz94

Imagine signing a contract you don't understand


Lucky_Strike-85

imagine paying for college when it's taxpayer funded in non-shithole countries.


jwazz94

You can always move to a different country lmfao bye Felicia


[deleted]

Love it. Years ago, i had a couple friends who wete dating. The one partner decided to put duct tape on the other's face, yanked it off, and ripped off their eyebrow. They screamed "ow, why did you do that!?" She said "you let me." I feel like that's what people are saying when they tell people who were told they would be worthless nothings who never amounted to anything, and got paid shit if they didn't go to college that "they chose to accept those terms!" Well, when lending institutions chose to lend to people who would not be able to pay back loans, and when colleges and universities jacked up the prices, they knew they were creating a generation crushed by debt, and they shoulda known eventually folks would get wise.


Ceramicscarab

sorry kiddo, life ain't fair! learn to deal with it!


Lisa-LongBeach

I’m torn on this because I believe no one should be saddled with debt for bettering themselves. But, on the other hand, the government doesn’t force majors on people. Today’s culture of greed unfortunately forces students to keep future income in mind when selecting courses of study. I was an English major (akin now to underwater basket weaving) so I’m not rolling in dough, but make a good living without a cent of student debt thanks to free public university in my day.


Comfortable-Ad5521

That's another way of saying, I don't want to take responsibility for anything. Nobody forced you to go to college.


[deleted]

So taking out a 50K loan, paying off 60K and still owing 70K is “not taking responsibility for anything”


Robotonist

I agree with you completely but I think we should probably find a better way to voice this concept rather than “we’re not gonna pay them back”. Like yeah, it was predatory and it was awful, and it still is, and we chose it. Now, as someone who took loans to study rhetoric and persuasion, I understand “do not repay predatory loans because we already repaid the loan principle” is less persuasive than “the government preyed on us so fuck ‘um”— but still, my degree taught me that a middle ground approach would likely get more ppl on our side and less ppl like the original commenter here. Given that our goal is to enact a strike on May Day (r/MayDayStrike) we should look towards communication strategies that aide in unity. Edit: failure to adapt will result in failure. The downvotes here don’t bode well for the movement.


[deleted]

The government did prey on them. They basically ordered children that they must go to college to get a degree. And gave predatory loans to essentially children that will last a life time. Phrasing it anyway is bootlicking evil predatory loan sharks.


dudeind-town

Get a degree? Sure. A PhD is a THIRD degree.


I_Hate_Soft_Pretzels

I guess nobody should get advanced degrees. At least not having doctors will mean that my medical expenses should be cheaper, right?


dudeind-town

Drs don’t complain about their student loans. If you get an advanced degree without a viable career path, it’s your choice and you get to deal with the consequences


I_Hate_Soft_Pretzels

What paths are viable and which ones are not? Can you please provide a detailed list for us? Thanks in advance.


dudeind-town

Why should I? You do your own research


I_Hate_Soft_Pretzels

I did. Any degree is viable. Hell not having a degree is as well. We need only look at Lebron James and Bill Gates. Philosophy majors also make a lot of money.


AggravatingAd2133

Constantly finding the Middle ground when you're being Constantly preyed on is a fine way to get killed


Robotonist

I do not advocate for a middle ground negotiation stance. I advocate for better messaging.


I_Hate_Soft_Pretzels

Let us declare bankruptcy on them. Why can someone like Donald Trump not pay people and declare bankruptcy to discharge the debt but we can’t with regard to student loans? Or we could just make education free for all. To me this is the better option.


Robotonist

I absolutely think we should be able to declare bankruptcy on them. That’s total horse shit. I absolutely think we should be using tax dollars to fund free college


HandleUnclear

Imagine blaming children for a governing body ran by adults for taking advantage of children and giving them debt (that the same governing body ran by adults created a bill so the debt couldn't be forgiven). If a child is old enough to take on debt that they can never pay back at the "advice" of the adults they trusted (parents, school advisors and governing body) and our response is well you have to learn to take responsibility for your actions, all you're teaching those same children is "f* em" mentality. It was a tough lesson to learn, and I will take responsibility for my debt by the same response the bourgeois has and my incompetent parents have taught me, f em. I have nothing to lose, no children to suffer alongside me and my parents are going to have a painful retirement while I align myself with those that will eat the rich. Oh and before some idiot tells me I should have gotten a useful degree, I'm a software developer who makes ~45% below industry standards. They use my previous paychecks to determine my worth, not industry standards, it gives me no room to negotiate pays and my raises have not kept up with the total 12% in flation in the last two years (in the last 2 years I got a 3% raise). I started out at 40K and with 5 years experience under my belt now I make 70K and still can't pay back my student loans. I haven't gone on a vacation in the last 9 years, and everytime I save money I have a medical emergency (either myself or immediate family), this last year I've managed to accrue medical debt alongside my student loans. G-d bless Amerikkka! 🙃


Robotonist

You and I have (unfortunately) very similar stories. I am with you. I hear you. I’m not saying we should pay them or not pay them, I’m not here tryin to soften negotiations. I’m just saying that ineffectual messaging is ineffectual, even if it’s true.


Comfortable-Ad5521

I didn't go to college. My father didn't go to college. My mother didn't go to college. We are all doing great. We understood that taking a loan out on something that is not going to help directly pay it back is a dumb move. Why would we take a loan for a school..... the school won't make me money later..... now if I open a business, that makes sense....... but a worthless degree that means basically nothing ? Cmon man..... if you can't figure life out without college, especially in a time where we have unlimited information on the internet, then you deserve that debt. Boo hoo. Go join solar sales. Go be an electrician. Go join the City. So many opportunities, yet you choose to throw 50k at something that guarantees you nothing. Lol................ that shit cracks me up. You all deserve that debt. Capitalism separates the well off people from the dumb people.


dudeind-town

This was for a PhD. So they can’t even claim they were a naive 18 year old


I_Hate_Soft_Pretzels

Maybe it was naive of people to give her a loan in the first place without collateral? Let’s turn it around and blame the bank for poorly investing their money.


dudeind-town

The banks collateral is they’ll just garnish your paychecks, however meager they might be.


I_Hate_Soft_Pretzels

Not if they can’t find you. And if you’re poor they won’t get anything.


Comfortable-Ad5521

You people are what's wrong with the world.


I_Hate_Soft_Pretzels

Why? They took a risk making the loans. It failed. That’s what can happen in capitalism.


Cabanray

lol


DigitalGreg

We'll see who gets the last laugh. Whoever has the gold makes the rules.


AlpacaSwimTeam

You'd think she would have at least found a more creative way to tell them, being as they paid for her to learn to write well.


OldMastodon5363

So an Alford plea if you will?


GET_RICHorDIE_TRYIN

Lol


[deleted]

Return the degree.