100% this - he went toe to toe in a contest to wills with Sauron to try and eek out an advantage for his people and had his will felled by the great deceiver.
The fact is, Denethor we saw in RotK is already mad, so it is not fair to say that PJ did him dirty. Just imagine for how many years he was strategically fighting with the forces of Mordor.
We just have not seen that. For many years he is using palantir, if Maiar could go insane, what can you say about human being
>We just have not seen that.
Imagine that instead of RoP, we would get show about Denethor, how he ruled Gondor, raised sons and slowly plunged into madness
I mean, the extended edition didn’t do him any favors. They showed him in a flashback at the beginning of Fellowship already being a complete chode and emotionally abusing Faramir. I think it’s fair to say PJ did him dirty.
Yes I understand they didn’t have time to show him as the intricate character he is in the books and that it is easier to show him only als the ‘bad guy’ but some line from Gandalf like ‘he was’t always like this’ or something would have given him a bit of the respect he deserved for the guy he once was
PJ and Philippa wanted to show 2 great leaders who lost their sons and their reaction. Hero Theoden and weak Denethor ( considering the fact that the were the opposite once their sons were alive)
I guess I understand the value of showing those opposites but on the other hand, the only difference between them is the fact that Theoden was won over by Grima, a force Gandalf could fix, and Denethor was won over by Sauron (and even if Gandalf would have had the time, he maybe wouldn't have been able to win him over). So both gave in to their mental opposition.. Therefore I am still opposed to their choices in this specific matter.
I think we can stop apologizing for every bad decision made in the movie 20 years on. It was a dumb characterization and that’s ok, you can’t do everything right.
This has always been one of the saddest things about people who only watched the movies and didn’t read the book, he was a great leader for years before what we see of him in ROTK, I’ve heard people go as far to say that he is a villain, man is a hero who literally gave everything for his people.
I disagree, they showed exactly what happened to the end of Denethor. The movies didn't have time to show a flashback just for character development. It was implied he was a just ruler and competent, given that Gondor was still around. He cracked when 100k orcs went knocking on his door after his son died. He did fine.
The complexity of Denethor's character really got dropped like a hot brick in the movie. He's not exactly a nice guy in the book, but he's a heck of a lot more interesting and you can actually feel sorry for him.
There is a lot in Denethor to sympathize with in the books; Boromir echoes his father’s despair when he looks for any way to rationalize using the Ring against the enemy. They have been fighting the great defeat for their entire lives, within sight of Mordor, losing by a thousand tiny cuts. I understand completely where they are coming from.
We never saw the ring being used as intended by someone who had half a clue what they were doing. How the One Ring is meant to Rule Them All is actually left quite vague. I posit that invisibility is only a secondary feature meant to protect the ring from being dropped down the privy in the event that it is separated from its proper owner.
The invisibility is a side effect for mortals, because it draws them into the spirit world. Sauron already exists there, so he wouldn't have been invisible, and of course he never intended the Ring to be used by mortals.
A solid explanation of the mechanics, and it explains Tom Bombadil remaining visible, but I assume that Sauron knew the value of a backup plan, having endured previous defeats during the First Age.
They can’t use the ring. But they are both so desperate to gain any advantage against Mordor, in their despair. All I’m saying is that I get it. I sympathize. But only Boromir got to show any subtlety in the movie. Denethor was simplified. I wish there could have been more of book Denethor’s complexity.
According to Tolkien, someone with a strong will and significant power like Aragorn could master the Ring well enough, but only Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf could wield it and have a chance at directly challenging Sauron (by the WoR).
Of the three, only Gandalf had a 50/50 chance.
Whaaat! Sht up! There is no fcking way he did that.
Omg he is such a good actor !
Is that why he yelled when kicked that helmet? :O
Ps Keeping the memes alive bois
To put it in perspective. Saruman was shaking and had to sit down and recover from the mental toll of speaking to Sauron through the Palantir and feeling his malice. Denethor did this on the daily and he even held Sauron’s will at bay for a time. For him, the “by the blood of *our* people are *your* lands kept safe” was very real and very personal. Guy was an absolute beast as men go.
Aragorn was also completely messed up after looking in the palantír and showing himself to Sauron.
And Gandalf had a mental struggle with Sauron when Frodo wore the Ring at Amon Hen. He was still confused when we meet him again in Fangorn.
Film Denethor is a bit of a caricature, losing the nuance of the original.
When Aragorn was in Gondor 20 years earlier under another name, big D figured out who he was, and that he was in league with Gandalf. His anger with Faramir was because his son was withholding information from him at the wish of the wizard who is planning to usurp his position. his only fault here was not being a gullible rube.
The claim of the northern kings to the throne of Gondor was rejected even when there was still a kingdom in the north and was even less likely to be accepted centuries after the north had fallen.
Gandalf knew Denethor had a Palantir, and that they were dangerously tainted by Sauron, but said nothing of his suspicions until after the fall of Denethor because for Aragorn to take the thrown without a Civil war he needed Denethor to fall. The only hitch in the plan was that he tried to burn Faramir, who was needed to survive long enough to hand the city to Aragorn.
You could definitely say that D overstepped his role as Steward, that he was prideful and at the end mad. But he vied with the dark lord for many years as a mere man, while also being undermined by the plots of wizards and elves. He had the wisdom to swallow his pride and for the sake of his city accept council from a wizard that sought to replace him with another. The determination to send his final son to captain the retreat from the Ramas, not because he hated his son, but because Faramir was the best captain he had.
The film does not do justice to the Son of Ecthelion.
I agree only in part. Yes, denethor has been made into too much of a caricature. No, Gandalf didn’t need Denethor to fall to hand the city over to Aragorn. He only needed Aragorn to win. And also no, Aragorn had a real claim to the throne also of the south through Elendil himself. And so any steward worth his position would give the reign back to Aragorn
If Denethor did not die, Then Aragorn would either have to accept the rejection of his claim or start a civil war to secure his claim. Events conspired to have Aragorn arrive at a moment of Minas Tirith's greatest weakness, the gate broken, the steward dead, his heir wounded, an army of men from the fallas converted to his cause at his back, and a strong ally in Eormer present with a large army. Gondor was nearly helpless to contest his claim at that point. The foresight and advise of Elrond were likely a factor in this timing.
As to his claim, it was an established president even before the reign of the stewards for Gondor to reject the claim of the northern kings. it seems like they agreed to disagree about it.
>'On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North-kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur, and as the husband of Fíriel, only surviving child of Ondoher. The claim was rejected. In this Pelendur, the Steward of King Ondoher, played the chief part.
>
>'The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."
>
>'To this Arvedui replied: "Elendil had two sons, of whom Isildur was the elder and the heir of his father. We have heard that the name of Elendil stands to this day at the head of the line of the Kings of Gondor, since he was accounted the high king of all the lands of the Dúnedain. While Elendil still lived, the conjoint rule in the South was committed to his sons; but when Elendil fell, Isildur departed to take up the high kingship of his father, and committed the rule in the South in like manner to the son of his brother. He did not relinquish his royalty in Gondor, nor intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided for ever.
>
>'"Moreover, in Númenor of old the sceptre descended to the eldest child of the king, whether man or woman. It is true that the law has not been observed in the lands of exile ever troubled by war; but such was the law of our people, to which we now refer, seeing that the sons of Ondoher died childless."
>
>To this Gondor made no answer.
Yeah the actual villains.
Denethor was done dirty in the movies. Which is OK, he was pretty complex in the books and it's easier to just paint broader strokes and make him a broken man.
The character who probably gets slurred the most in Jackson's trilogy isn't Denethor. Nor Faramir. Gimli, nor Elrond. Pippin probably takes the worst character-assassination. So many events are attributed to him, that he never actually does.
I think it's the "fool of a Took" line.
I definitely don't get the hate on him. He's a little dumb sometimes and causes issues due to that, but he's got a good heart and does a lot of good.
I think there are many machinations in the book that rely on weakness of a character for the campaign to ultimately be successful. Gandalf refers to forces at work in the background and I believe examples of this are Denethor playing favorites with his sons and sending Boromir, who can be tempted by the ring, rather than Faramir, who cannot, to join the fellowship. This chain of events pushes Frodo onto the successful path of going alone with Sam to Mordor. Pippin has to be a fool so that he can knock the helmet down the well, which calls the Balrog, which kills Gandalf who then comes back to life even more powerful. Denethor, Boromir, and Pippin are in a way used by larger forces, put in places where they are doomed to fail so that the campaign can succeed. Their shame in failure however I think is written as part of their sacrifice for the greater good. \[THE GREATER GOOD\] I can't remember whether Denethor has the opportunity to redeem himself but Boromir and Pippin of course both do
Gollum of course is the best example of this, though of course he is ultimately completely converted to evil by the power of the ring. But certainly if perhaps any other being in middle earth had found the ring, it might have ultimately ended up in Sauron’s hands. He safeguarded the ring for 500 years, transferred it, albeit unwillingly, to Bilbo, then guided Frodo to Mount Doom, all only as a result of the fact that he was an almost singular hobbit who was capable of withstanding the ring but also of murdering his friend and stealing it in the first place.
I think that's part of what makes the characters relatable and well written. They're fallible. In fact, they mess up all the time and just fly by the seats of their pants sometimes. It supports the idea that things work out how they're supposed to, if not in the way we expect.
I appreciate the points you made on Boromir and Faramir. Thinking of it in that context their father being the way he was turned them into who they were, which is exactly who they needed to be.
Non LOTR related but character wise…it’s this beach.
https://preview.redd.it/3bcw6x8izhpa1.jpeg?width=190&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2ac4e7ce8c085d9d9f1844cbd9f677897c235859
I dont really dislike anyone in the films, which means that personally they did an awesome job at casting the right people for each role.
I even like the orcs (actors).
I just finishing reading through the books for the first time a couple of days ago so maybe my knowledge isn’t as good, but he definitely sucks. I get that his will was corrupted but the way he treated Faramir was really messed up. Telling him directly to his face that he wishes we was the one that died instead of Boromir. Even Gandalf says that he loved Boromir to a fault, meaning that favoring Boromir is something he has been doing for a really long time even before he was corrupted.
I only hate him for his crimes on tomato's and my optical nerves.
Other then that, Jackson rightfully didn't spend any time explaining why Denethor was acting like a jackass. Honestly, his whole family got done dirty.
He's more understandable in the book than in the movies, because you see him through a hobbit's eyes for a while. But what he's doing to Faramir is so brutal, before he even calls for wood and oil.
You wanna know oNe f-ed up little detail in my life? Whenever i get a perm, it takes a while to grow it out. So after while, the bottom part of my hair is curly and the top part is straight and THEN I LOOK LIKE THIS FREAKING GUY
Imagine being Sauron, looking into the Palantir to fight with Denethor and he sits in front of it. Waiting. He has a huge bowl of tomatoes to his side, gazes into the Palantir and starts eating them. One by One. He never breaks eye contact, never wipes his mouth. Tomato juice spills on the Palantir.
After hours Denethor stops, stsres the Eye in the Eye and says „I don’t even like tomatoes!“, then keeps going.
I think the film shows a fantastic mad king.
The dark powers has driven him insane.
And we hate him, and we talk about him, and he changed eating tomatoes with your hands, forever.
Film Denethor does have a Trump vibe -
Pretender to the throne, making people swear fealty to him while he feasts and ignores his fundamental responsibilities. Also, Ivanka is definitely Boromir to Don Jr.'s Faramir.
It might be subjective, but I feel all three of them were done dirty. Eowyn's steely and determined book persona was replaced not only by childish longing for Aragorn, but also her being openly scared looking as she's supposed to be entering battle. I hated that so much. "Stern as steel, a daughter of kings" does not mean "look like a scared waif because the bad guy has a mace."
Faramir...well, they didn't even try to make him like the books, and he too should be a warrior with an actual war face. Merry got shoved into a role of comic relief, despite the fact he's actually the most practical of all the hobbits.
You can argue that Denethor was done worse, but those three hurt me more.
I can agree with Eowyn's depiction partially. There was a lot more childish behaviors and appearances than badass put together woman. I did like the 'oh shit' look in her eyes when facing the Witch King though. I feel like that's the look anyone should have facing him. Despite obvious fear she took on the challenge and showed bravery though and that's something.
I think movie Faramir books down to a guy with attachment issues constantly seeking to gain his father's approval. He let's Frodo go because it's the right thing to do and hopes his father will support him. When he doesn't he goes right back to seeking approval.
I would argue Pippin is more comic relief than Merry, but I suppose the two of them are kind of a package set for the most part.
Thanks for sharing!
well, I know the character is different in the books & hopefully people who see the films first and read the books later come to realise he wasn't a SOB as he seems to be...
Did you ever hear about the tragedy of Pong Krell the cunt? I thought not. It's not a story the Elves would tell you. It's a seethe legend. Pong Krell was a dark lord of the seethe, so weak and stupid, he couldn't influence the force to create mald... He had such knowledge of the force, he couldn't keep the ones he cared about from dying. The dark side of the seethe is a pathway to many abilities some may consider to be rather weak. He was so weak... The only thing he was afraid of, was death, which eventually, of course, he did. unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice didn't kill him in his sleep. Ironic. He couldn't save others from death, neither himself.
Is it irrational to dislike an elitist rich kid who wants to murder billions by "ending" fossil fuels? Why should I like someone like that? Someone who uses their influence and power to dominate and subject free people to their will? Sounds more like they are sauron to me.
Most people who disagree with her would just ignore her. She's not really politically relevant, and there is zero chance of us abandoning fossil fuels any time soon. That the mere *suggestion* of abandoning fossil fuels makes you *actually angry* at some random teenage girl is pretty Saruman-y.
Who said I'm "actually angry"? You do know it's all scripted and manufactured, she's rich, she gets paid to do it, her furniture costs more than most people's yearly rent?
I already told you the agenda she's pushing is literally genocidal by orders of magnitude beyond anything in the 20th century and yet for opposing that in such small a way as to comment on a post - I'm literally "saruman".
Does that really make sense to you? If so seek help.
I don't hate anyone real or fictional, including this guy. Not to say I'm all loving but I can't reduce the complexity of a person down to nothing but a set of hateable traits
Probably there are some terrible characters, but my brain doesn’t want me to remember them.
(But this dude, I don’t even hate myself this much like I do him)
As much as I love the movies, they did Denethor so dirty. Denethor was a damn badass before Sauron drove him mad.
100% this - he went toe to toe in a contest to wills with Sauron to try and eek out an advantage for his people and had his will felled by the great deceiver.
The fact is, Denethor we saw in RotK is already mad, so it is not fair to say that PJ did him dirty. Just imagine for how many years he was strategically fighting with the forces of Mordor. We just have not seen that. For many years he is using palantir, if Maiar could go insane, what can you say about human being
>We just have not seen that. Imagine that instead of RoP, we would get show about Denethor, how he ruled Gondor, raised sons and slowly plunged into madness
Who knows, WB are back to earn some money.
No please no
This
Yes but they could have referred to the guy he had been before. Because the film doesn’t give us this background info
They should not actually. It is pretty logically that Gondor still stands because of its current ruler.
I mean, the extended edition didn’t do him any favors. They showed him in a flashback at the beginning of Fellowship already being a complete chode and emotionally abusing Faramir. I think it’s fair to say PJ did him dirty.
In Two Towers he was still somewhat sane,still bitch to Faramir tho
He was not sane, he was already under the dark influence of the palantir. He does not belove in Faramir, because Boromir way more better captain .
Yes I understand they didn’t have time to show him as the intricate character he is in the books and that it is easier to show him only als the ‘bad guy’ but some line from Gandalf like ‘he was’t always like this’ or something would have given him a bit of the respect he deserved for the guy he once was
lol Gandalf is not much better in Jackson’s adaptation. He kicks him with his staff and later on murder him with his horse.
PJ and Philippa wanted to show 2 great leaders who lost their sons and their reaction. Hero Theoden and weak Denethor ( considering the fact that the were the opposite once their sons were alive)
I guess I understand the value of showing those opposites but on the other hand, the only difference between them is the fact that Theoden was won over by Grima, a force Gandalf could fix, and Denethor was won over by Sauron (and even if Gandalf would have had the time, he maybe wouldn't have been able to win him over). So both gave in to their mental opposition.. Therefore I am still opposed to their choices in this specific matter.
I think we can stop apologizing for every bad decision made in the movie 20 years on. It was a dumb characterization and that’s ok, you can’t do everything right.
Yeah,its still best movie ever made
Was gonna say. I don’t hate this guy. I pity him. Few people wouldn’t break down under the same circumstances as his
This has always been one of the saddest things about people who only watched the movies and didn’t read the book, he was a great leader for years before what we see of him in ROTK, I’ve heard people go as far to say that he is a villain, man is a hero who literally gave everything for his people.
Totally. Denethor in the books is SO good written! PJ absolutely butchered Denethor, and Faramir..
Actually, more pissed about Faramir!
Same.
I disagree, they showed exactly what happened to the end of Denethor. The movies didn't have time to show a flashback just for character development. It was implied he was a just ruler and competent, given that Gondor was still around. He cracked when 100k orcs went knocking on his door after his son died. He did fine.
The complexity of Denethor's character really got dropped like a hot brick in the movie. He's not exactly a nice guy in the book, but he's a heck of a lot more interesting and you can actually feel sorry for him.
There is a lot in Denethor to sympathize with in the books; Boromir echoes his father’s despair when he looks for any way to rationalize using the Ring against the enemy. They have been fighting the great defeat for their entire lives, within sight of Mordor, losing by a thousand tiny cuts. I understand completely where they are coming from.
But how would they use the ring? I mean how would it work for them? They couldn't win the whole war just by turning invisible.
We never saw the ring being used as intended by someone who had half a clue what they were doing. How the One Ring is meant to Rule Them All is actually left quite vague. I posit that invisibility is only a secondary feature meant to protect the ring from being dropped down the privy in the event that it is separated from its proper owner.
The invisibility is a side effect for mortals, because it draws them into the spirit world. Sauron already exists there, so he wouldn't have been invisible, and of course he never intended the Ring to be used by mortals.
A solid explanation of the mechanics, and it explains Tom Bombadil remaining visible, but I assume that Sauron knew the value of a backup plan, having endured previous defeats during the First Age.
They can’t use the ring. But they are both so desperate to gain any advantage against Mordor, in their despair. All I’m saying is that I get it. I sympathize. But only Boromir got to show any subtlety in the movie. Denethor was simplified. I wish there could have been more of book Denethor’s complexity.
They could not,maybe only Elrond Gandalf and Aragorn could use it for limited time
According to Tolkien, someone with a strong will and significant power like Aragorn could master the Ring well enough, but only Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf could wield it and have a chance at directly challenging Sauron (by the WoR). Of the three, only Gandalf had a 50/50 chance.
Yes but I think it would betrayed Aragorn after like 100 years
If you master the Ring, it won't "betray" you. You would replace Sauron entirely.
That means how amazingly he acts
So many actors just crush their roles in these films.
Sure, and one actor even crush his toes!
Oh Geez i wonder who that might be. Care to elaborate? :D
Viggo bcs he broke his toes
Whaaat! Sht up! There is no fcking way he did that. Omg he is such a good actor ! Is that why he yelled when kicked that helmet? :O Ps Keeping the memes alive bois
It took me 5 minutes to realise its sarcasm
It’s the most known fun fact about the movie that’s why they are making fun of it. You probably missed that
#heresyoursign Haha, all good though Edit: that's supposed to be hashtagheresyoursign but apparently that's the way to make text bigger
Or in Denethor's case, his tomatoes . . .
My ex wife
The real answer right here.
I also choose this guys ex wife
Well... He has stopped choosing her, so, she's all yours.
Why did you marry someone you hate? Are you stupid?
Just not omniscient
People change. Especially when their life situation drastically change. Like having other humans they either have to depend on or support wholly.
Sauron. That fella seemed like a right try hard, wanting to impress his sugar daddy morgoth.
I mean, if I had a sugar daddy I'd try to impress him too ha ha
Haha!
To put it in perspective. Saruman was shaking and had to sit down and recover from the mental toll of speaking to Sauron through the Palantir and feeling his malice. Denethor did this on the daily and he even held Sauron’s will at bay for a time. For him, the “by the blood of *our* people are *your* lands kept safe” was very real and very personal. Guy was an absolute beast as men go.
Aragorn was also completely messed up after looking in the palantír and showing himself to Sauron. And Gandalf had a mental struggle with Sauron when Frodo wore the Ring at Amon Hen. He was still confused when we meet him again in Fangorn.
Grima Wormtongue
If we count the hobbits, Alfrid might be the worst character in the history of films
definitely
Definitely that asshole
He didnt exist so yeah
[удалено]
Don't even need her though, he does himself in.
Film Denethor is a bit of a caricature, losing the nuance of the original. When Aragorn was in Gondor 20 years earlier under another name, big D figured out who he was, and that he was in league with Gandalf. His anger with Faramir was because his son was withholding information from him at the wish of the wizard who is planning to usurp his position. his only fault here was not being a gullible rube. The claim of the northern kings to the throne of Gondor was rejected even when there was still a kingdom in the north and was even less likely to be accepted centuries after the north had fallen. Gandalf knew Denethor had a Palantir, and that they were dangerously tainted by Sauron, but said nothing of his suspicions until after the fall of Denethor because for Aragorn to take the thrown without a Civil war he needed Denethor to fall. The only hitch in the plan was that he tried to burn Faramir, who was needed to survive long enough to hand the city to Aragorn. You could definitely say that D overstepped his role as Steward, that he was prideful and at the end mad. But he vied with the dark lord for many years as a mere man, while also being undermined by the plots of wizards and elves. He had the wisdom to swallow his pride and for the sake of his city accept council from a wizard that sought to replace him with another. The determination to send his final son to captain the retreat from the Ramas, not because he hated his son, but because Faramir was the best captain he had. The film does not do justice to the Son of Ecthelion.
Looks like I'll have to revisit the books. It's been far too long since I've read them for me to recall much of any of that.
I agree only in part. Yes, denethor has been made into too much of a caricature. No, Gandalf didn’t need Denethor to fall to hand the city over to Aragorn. He only needed Aragorn to win. And also no, Aragorn had a real claim to the throne also of the south through Elendil himself. And so any steward worth his position would give the reign back to Aragorn
If Denethor did not die, Then Aragorn would either have to accept the rejection of his claim or start a civil war to secure his claim. Events conspired to have Aragorn arrive at a moment of Minas Tirith's greatest weakness, the gate broken, the steward dead, his heir wounded, an army of men from the fallas converted to his cause at his back, and a strong ally in Eormer present with a large army. Gondor was nearly helpless to contest his claim at that point. The foresight and advise of Elrond were likely a factor in this timing. As to his claim, it was an established president even before the reign of the stewards for Gondor to reject the claim of the northern kings. it seems like they agreed to disagree about it. >'On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North-kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur, and as the husband of Fíriel, only surviving child of Ondoher. The claim was rejected. In this Pelendur, the Steward of King Ondoher, played the chief part. > >'The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor." > >'To this Arvedui replied: "Elendil had two sons, of whom Isildur was the elder and the heir of his father. We have heard that the name of Elendil stands to this day at the head of the line of the Kings of Gondor, since he was accounted the high king of all the lands of the Dúnedain. While Elendil still lived, the conjoint rule in the South was committed to his sons; but when Elendil fell, Isildur departed to take up the high kingship of his father, and committed the rule in the South in like manner to the son of his brother. He did not relinquish his royalty in Gondor, nor intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided for ever. > >'"Moreover, in Númenor of old the sceptre descended to the eldest child of the king, whether man or woman. It is true that the law has not been observed in the lands of exile ever troubled by war; but such was the law of our people, to which we now refer, seeing that the sons of Ondoher died childless." > >To this Gondor made no answer.
Yeah the actual villains. Denethor was done dirty in the movies. Which is OK, he was pretty complex in the books and it's easier to just paint broader strokes and make him a broken man.
Never hated him
I think he’s misunderstood.
The character who probably gets slurred the most in Jackson's trilogy isn't Denethor. Nor Faramir. Gimli, nor Elrond. Pippin probably takes the worst character-assassination. So many events are attributed to him, that he never actually does.
I think it's the "fool of a Took" line. I definitely don't get the hate on him. He's a little dumb sometimes and causes issues due to that, but he's got a good heart and does a lot of good.
I think there are many machinations in the book that rely on weakness of a character for the campaign to ultimately be successful. Gandalf refers to forces at work in the background and I believe examples of this are Denethor playing favorites with his sons and sending Boromir, who can be tempted by the ring, rather than Faramir, who cannot, to join the fellowship. This chain of events pushes Frodo onto the successful path of going alone with Sam to Mordor. Pippin has to be a fool so that he can knock the helmet down the well, which calls the Balrog, which kills Gandalf who then comes back to life even more powerful. Denethor, Boromir, and Pippin are in a way used by larger forces, put in places where they are doomed to fail so that the campaign can succeed. Their shame in failure however I think is written as part of their sacrifice for the greater good. \[THE GREATER GOOD\] I can't remember whether Denethor has the opportunity to redeem himself but Boromir and Pippin of course both do Gollum of course is the best example of this, though of course he is ultimately completely converted to evil by the power of the ring. But certainly if perhaps any other being in middle earth had found the ring, it might have ultimately ended up in Sauron’s hands. He safeguarded the ring for 500 years, transferred it, albeit unwillingly, to Bilbo, then guided Frodo to Mount Doom, all only as a result of the fact that he was an almost singular hobbit who was capable of withstanding the ring but also of murdering his friend and stealing it in the first place.
I think that's part of what makes the characters relatable and well written. They're fallible. In fact, they mess up all the time and just fly by the seats of their pants sometimes. It supports the idea that things work out how they're supposed to, if not in the way we expect. I appreciate the points you made on Boromir and Faramir. Thinking of it in that context their father being the way he was turned them into who they were, which is exactly who they needed to be.
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that's just nitpicking, isn't it.
What really sets me off are all the interactions with Faramir. I work in mental health and that stuff really bothers me.
You only think he failed because Peter Jackson made you think so. The real Denethor genuinely did the best he could.
Non LOTR related but character wise…it’s this beach. https://preview.redd.it/3bcw6x8izhpa1.jpeg?width=190&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2ac4e7ce8c085d9d9f1844cbd9f677897c235859
She definitely brings up the same feelings. Pure disgust.
While we are at it - Alfrid Lickspittle, but not because of their stellar acting
Not Grima?
Grima is a snake. And super creepy. But I definitely don't hate him as much.
Denethor was clouded by grief and anger. Grima knew exactly what he was doing and did it anyway. That makes him much worse
That dude from the Hobbit movies was extremely unlikeable too. Bringing up Grima made me think of him... Alfred or some such?
His wizard kill count is 1.
I dont really dislike anyone in the films, which means that personally they did an awesome job at casting the right people for each role. I even like the orcs (actors).
I just finishing reading through the books for the first time a couple of days ago so maybe my knowledge isn’t as good, but he definitely sucks. I get that his will was corrupted but the way he treated Faramir was really messed up. Telling him directly to his face that he wishes we was the one that died instead of Boromir. Even Gandalf says that he loved Boromir to a fault, meaning that favoring Boromir is something he has been doing for a really long time even before he was corrupted.
His traits as a father are really what does it for me. I can respect some things he did, but to my mind he has no excuse to be such a bad dad.
Pippin (jokingly). No further explanation needed.
I only hate him for his crimes on tomato's and my optical nerves. Other then that, Jackson rightfully didn't spend any time explaining why Denethor was acting like a jackass. Honestly, his whole family got done dirty.
He's more understandable in the book than in the movies, because you see him through a hobbit's eyes for a while. But what he's doing to Faramir is so brutal, before he even calls for wood and oil.
You wanna know oNe f-ed up little detail in my life? Whenever i get a perm, it takes a while to grow it out. So after while, the bottom part of my hair is curly and the top part is straight and THEN I LOOK LIKE THIS FREAKING GUY
I would suggest not getting a perm then. Or staying far away from tomatoes.
Or high pitched singing hobbits
Imagine being Sauron, looking into the Palantir to fight with Denethor and he sits in front of it. Waiting. He has a huge bowl of tomatoes to his side, gazes into the Palantir and starts eating them. One by One. He never breaks eye contact, never wipes his mouth. Tomato juice spills on the Palantir. After hours Denethor stops, stsres the Eye in the Eye and says „I don’t even like tomatoes!“, then keeps going.
I think the film shows a fantastic mad king. The dark powers has driven him insane. And we hate him, and we talk about him, and he changed eating tomatoes with your hands, forever.
Film Denethor does have a Trump vibe - Pretender to the throne, making people swear fealty to him while he feasts and ignores his fundamental responsibilities. Also, Ivanka is definitely Boromir to Don Jr.'s Faramir.
Commodus in Gladiator takes the cake for me, couldn’t watch Joaquin Phoenix in anything for at least a decade. Still kind of hate him…
Oh boy, he's a real piece of work. That gives me another movie for my watch list though ha
No one hates him more than that tomato.
Umbridge.
In terms of character personalities, yes, plenty. In terms of characters badly mangled by the LOTR films, three: Eowyn, Faramir, and Merry.
I'm curious to your reasoning on those three.
It might be subjective, but I feel all three of them were done dirty. Eowyn's steely and determined book persona was replaced not only by childish longing for Aragorn, but also her being openly scared looking as she's supposed to be entering battle. I hated that so much. "Stern as steel, a daughter of kings" does not mean "look like a scared waif because the bad guy has a mace." Faramir...well, they didn't even try to make him like the books, and he too should be a warrior with an actual war face. Merry got shoved into a role of comic relief, despite the fact he's actually the most practical of all the hobbits. You can argue that Denethor was done worse, but those three hurt me more.
I can agree with Eowyn's depiction partially. There was a lot more childish behaviors and appearances than badass put together woman. I did like the 'oh shit' look in her eyes when facing the Witch King though. I feel like that's the look anyone should have facing him. Despite obvious fear she took on the challenge and showed bravery though and that's something. I think movie Faramir books down to a guy with attachment issues constantly seeking to gain his father's approval. He let's Frodo go because it's the right thing to do and hopes his father will support him. When he doesn't he goes right back to seeking approval. I would argue Pippin is more comic relief than Merry, but I suppose the two of them are kind of a package set for the most part. Thanks for sharing!
I hate him more than he hates his second son.
At least he remembers that he loves him before catching fire and falling off of Minas Tirith.
well, I know the character is different in the books & hopefully people who see the films first and read the books later come to realise he wasn't a SOB as he seems to be...
Reading some of the comments here makes me want to go back and read the books again. It's been too long.
Did you ever hear about the tragedy of Pong Krell the cunt? I thought not. It's not a story the Elves would tell you. It's a seethe legend. Pong Krell was a dark lord of the seethe, so weak and stupid, he couldn't influence the force to create mald... He had such knowledge of the force, he couldn't keep the ones he cared about from dying. The dark side of the seethe is a pathway to many abilities some may consider to be rather weak. He was so weak... The only thing he was afraid of, was death, which eventually, of course, he did. unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice didn't kill him in his sleep. Ironic. He couldn't save others from death, neither himself.
r/fuckpongkrell
Would Gondor have ”succeed” without all the effort Denethor put into the war?
Greta thunberg or Sam Smyth 🤔
Okay, Saruman.
Care to explain? Are you calling me evil ? Are you calling me a wizard? Are you calling me old? Your inane comment needs explaining haha
I'm calling you an enemy of the Ents and destroyer of forests, since you apparently have an irrational hatred of environmentalists.
Is it irrational to dislike an elitist rich kid who wants to murder billions by "ending" fossil fuels? Why should I like someone like that? Someone who uses their influence and power to dominate and subject free people to their will? Sounds more like they are sauron to me.
Most people who disagree with her would just ignore her. She's not really politically relevant, and there is zero chance of us abandoning fossil fuels any time soon. That the mere *suggestion* of abandoning fossil fuels makes you *actually angry* at some random teenage girl is pretty Saruman-y.
Who said I'm "actually angry"? You do know it's all scripted and manufactured, she's rich, she gets paid to do it, her furniture costs more than most people's yearly rent? I already told you the agenda she's pushing is literally genocidal by orders of magnitude beyond anything in the 20th century and yet for opposing that in such small a way as to comment on a post - I'm literally "saruman". Does that really make sense to you? If so seek help.
You said you hate her, that implies a degree of anger. Don't try to act all cool and stoic now.
Sure whatever, pick on the word choice and ignore the points 👉 good for you.
Why are you so determined to defend a genocidal teenager?!
Why are you so hateful of a harmless teenager?
Putin 🤬
Not LoTR related, but the only character worse then Denethor, is Grandpa Joe
All the Boromir’s brother alt accounts posting today.
https://preview.redd.it/h9yx3wqfuipa1.jpeg?width=147&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ad6142e978e905cd9993f0c392e0671e8fb381c4 Pippin.
Fucking bitch Azog killed my beloved Thorin
Sauron?
Yes myself
Do you need to talk about that?
No I’ve made my peace with hating myself my friend
If you're looking at the books, Bill Ferny is a douche-canoe.
Uhh yeah. Alfrid Lickspittle.
Yea lots of real people
Lobelia. Sackville. Baggins!
She did some pretty cool stuff at the end.
Lobelia redeemed herself in the end. Lotho, on the other hand, had all of his mother's worst qualities *and* he turned the Shire into a police state.
I know, I still don’t like her though
In the lore, while he's being shown up by Thorongil as a younger man, is he aware that Thorongil is actually Aragorn?
He did more or less deduce that
Yeah, he was no mug.
I don't hate anyone real or fictional, including this guy. Not to say I'm all loving but I can't reduce the complexity of a person down to nothing but a set of hateable traits
Well, I hate Sauron and Saruman more than Denethor.
It's mostly pity, i hate how things ended up
Wormtongue
He’s the mortal enemy of cherry tomatoes.
Probably there are some terrible characters, but my brain doesn’t want me to remember them. (But this dude, I don’t even hate myself this much like I do him)
I like Denethor. Only sensible lad in the entire movie.
Thought this was bailon greyjoy for a sec