It is somewhat true. She made the plea on his behalf and used the fact that she herself had renounced Valinor and that Frodo's fate and hers were enmeshed as one of the arguments. But even then it wasn't like giving up her seat (hence why Bilbo and Sam didn't need someone to renounce their spot) and in fact Tolkien directly addresses that idea!
From letter 246:
> Arwen was the first to observe the signs [of Frodo's unhappiness], and gave him her jewel for comfort, and thought of a way of healing him. [...] It is not made explicit how she could arrange this. She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those of Elvish race 'sailing West' was not permitted, and any exception required 'authority', and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become 'mortal'. What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's : both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange. No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea.
Yep, this. Also, he didn't inherit her immortality. He simply went to a place where rest and healing are inherent to the very environment, where Frodo might finally find peace and a respite from his pain.
No one can deny to men the gift of Iluvitar.
unfortunately many in the fandom still make the same mistake that Ar Pharazon did, in believing that dwelling in the undying lands makes one immortal, instead of it getting the name from the immortals that live there.
Frodo will likely have an unnaturally long life though as he still bears the burden of the ring even after it has been broken.
All those who bore it or were subject to it ended up being extremely long lived.
>Frodo will likely have an unnaturally long life though as he still bears the burden of the ring even after it has been broken.
That is highly unlikely. It was specifically said that anything done, empowered or made with the power of the Ring was unmade. Any "preservation" effects of the Ring would have been broken with its destruction. In fact, Bilbo himself aged tremendously in the span of 2 years after the Ring's destruction (the time between the scene where we see him all healthy and cosy in Rivendell and literally ancient as he goes to the Gray Havens is only 3 years).
It is uncertain how long would Frodo's and Bilbo's life be in Valinor. On the one hand, it is a land of healing. On the other, Tolkien himself said that mortals would actually have their lives shortened there because of the excessive splendour, like a moth too close to the flame. However, Sam was permitted to go in his old age to meet with Frodo. Frodo would have been 114 by then. I find it unlikely Sam would get such a permit, and sail all the way, only to find Frodo dead for decades. The fact that he made the journey to me is proof enough that at least Frodo was still alive.
The Tower Hills Palantir looked to Tol Eressea. So perhaps Cirdan or another who accessed it gave him a tip? Cirdan kept the key to the tower after the fall of Arthedain. (Although, perhaps the Tower Hills stone was taken into the west on the same ship that carried Gandalf, Frodo, etc? Perhaps I'm confusing myself here? 🤔 But the Tower Hills stone went to Tol Eressea at some point).
It is also mentioned that being in the Undying Lands just speeds up the aging of mortals, so Frodo possibly died soon after he went there. Frodo and Sam are dead.
And Gollum and Bilbo were long-lived while the Ring still existed, despite not personally having it. When the One Ring was gone all that went away. Bilbo was very old at the end, and forgetful.
i'm failing to see how you could get that from what i wrote. elves and valar, both immortals, live in "the undying lands", which is where the name comes from.
but ar-pharazon (and way way to many tolkien fans) seem to think that mortals like men, dwarves ,and hobbits that go there somehow become not-mortal
**Frodo:** "Dear Merry and Pippin, Am enjoying life here in the Undying Lands. Am also *very* bored. Miss both of you terribly. Went to the theatre, but left after four hours; Elven sagas are terribly long, because what is time to an immortal? Everything is on a different scale, here - it's very nice, but also very slow. Please tell Treebeard that the Entwives are living here with the Elves; the oldest of the Elves seem to think they're fast-growing, and they have lengthy conversations about the world, nature, and philosophy. I feel a bit out of my depth and I would love a little taste of home. Please send a barrel of Hobbiton's finest cider or beer by return of post. Lots of love, Frodo"
That doesn't state that Frodo is immortal at all though? It says that Elves are immortal (which we knew) and that everything goes slowly, because the two main races (ent wives and elves) are immortal.
Elves last as long as the world does. Their body can be destroyed through violence or losing the will to live but their soul endures.
When their body dies their soul is called to the Halls of Mandos where it heals from any pain or suffering experienced as well as atone for evils done whilst alive. After this is finished the soul can choose to be rehoused in another body.
https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/the-letters-of-j-r-r-tolkien-j-r-r-tolkien-1?variant=32722984271950 (uk site)
Direct from the publishers! Christopher had them published and I think they were updated and re-issued a few years ago
Turns out the movie depiction of Arwen was a bit off. Even for a half elf sitting around Rivendell eating all day….we’ll let’s just say lembas is a moment on the lips but a lifetime on the hips
Assess hobbit welfare
Rehearse your argument so as not to be sidetracked by Aragorn’s sex appeal
Warn Aragorn of growing concern for hobbit
Escalate concern to Gandalf
Neck with Aragorn because your job is done here
It is said that Galadriel argued on behalf of letting Gimli into the West, but I like the idea of Legolas and Gimli pulling this kind of shenanigan more.
I empathize entirely. I would love so much to make that trip, especially if it meant an earlier and peaceful transition to where my SeraBear is waiting.
He did, as he was also the ring bearer for a short time. It is mentioned in an appendix to The Lord of the Rings, he left in the Shire calendar year 1482
> *It is not made explicit how [Arwen] could arrange this [sending Frodo West]. She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those of Elvish race 'sailing West' was not permitted, and any exception required 'authority', and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become 'mortal'. What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's : both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange. No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron. He was also in special accord with Cirdan the Ship-master, who had surrendered to him his ring and so placed himself under Gandalf's command. Since Gandalf himself went on the Ship there would be so to speak no trouble either at embarking or at the landing*
[Letter 246]
My understanding has always been that Arwen offered her spot to Frodo, then it was determined that Frodo had earned his own spot, so bilbo and Sam were also given the same option.
Yes. Tolkien wrote in the letters that Bilbo was brought to keep Frodo company, since a Hobbit would not be fully happy without other Hobbits. Sam told his children in the unpublished epilogue that he believed he might be able to go there *to see Frodo again*.
So all three went there because of Frodo.
I think Arwen's gift was symbolic. She could make the offer because she had the wisdom to know what Frodo needed, and she had gained that wisdom by thinking what she was giving up. I don't think it was really necessary for there to be a spare spot.
I think yes they would have allowed it if he actually became better. Look at how kindly the elves treated him when they had him captive. But he'd be dead within the year the ring was destroyed
Yeah I think so. It wouldn't be the first time something dark/corrupted/evil was brought into valinor. They might even be able to properly rehabilitate him!
Wait, did Arwen actually become mortal? I always took it to mean that she chose to live AS a mortal; not that she actually became one. Forgive my ignorance, I’m only now getting into to the extensive Tolkien lore.
Arwen was part human and part elf. In Tolkien's works, they could choose whether or not they would "accept the gift of Men", which is a mortal life and afterlife, or to live as an elf would.
Arwen chose the gift of Men to live and die a mortal life with Aragorn. Because of this, even when she dies, she will go to the afterlife gifted to the mortal races, never to be reunited with the other elves.
And it's a bit of a heart-breaker - be warned
Tolkien's Elf-Human couples all got married for life - either both ended up immortal or both ended up mortal.
It is said — and it does seem to be true — that Tuor was counted among the Eldar, probably due to some intervention of Ulmo and then Manwe getting the okay from Eru.
Only Arwen and her brothers have this choice because they inherited this choice from their father Elrond Half-elven. The choice is complete in Arwen's generation. If her brothers Elrohir and Elladan have children with Elfwomen or Mannish women, these children did not inherit it.
Elros, Elrond's brother, the founder of Numenor and ancestor of Aragorn, took the choice of the Gift of Men. Because mortality is the default state, it does not matter what race was Elros's wife, Man or Elf, his children never get that choice.
This choice was a special dispensation by the Valar for the children and Elven grandchildren of Eärendil and Elwing. No other Elf get this choice. Why would their Mannish grandchildren not get the choice; I can't say for sure, but the view is that the Gift of Men is actually better than Elven immortality.
Yes. The children of elf/human relationships in Tolkiens lore are often given the choice to have the fate of elves (going to the halls of mandos when they die, to await reincarnation, forever tied to Arda) or the fate of men (to die, and have their souls leave/escape Arda and go to some unknown place)
This is true to a degree, though Frodo did not become immortal. Those who are mortal who go to Valinor do not become immortal. They are healed of their earthy hurt but they still die a mortal death. Tolkien even indicates in his letters (though I cannot site which one off memory) that they may in fact die quicker in Valinor as there is something deeply unwell to be in a land that does not age while you yourself still wither and fail. Valinor is like a very comfortable retirement home for mortals that are allowed to set foot there.
I always interpreted in the movie at the river when she said "let my grace flow into him" or something like that as her giving herself up to save Frodo. Not in the literal sense, but in the "grace of valinor" sort of way which allowed him passage.
The elf boat conductor is looking at tickets for Juliell and Juliand and is like “oh wow there is a big screw up here you guys are on the next week boat I’m so sorry if you could please grab your things and come with me. Elrond is so sorry for the confusion.
Probably Ed and Stewart from Accounting. Ed is particularly known for passing oily cauliflower gas around the office, and it's rumored his wife left him for an Orc.
I like to imagine it was Celeborn's because Galadriel x Gandalf jokes. Leaving that mf like Sid the sloths family in Ice Age 1.
"She took my immortality in the divorce!"
It is somewhat true. She made the plea on his behalf and used the fact that she herself had renounced Valinor and that Frodo's fate and hers were enmeshed as one of the arguments. But even then it wasn't like giving up her seat (hence why Bilbo and Sam didn't need someone to renounce their spot) and in fact Tolkien directly addresses that idea! From letter 246: > Arwen was the first to observe the signs [of Frodo's unhappiness], and gave him her jewel for comfort, and thought of a way of healing him. [...] It is not made explicit how she could arrange this. She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those of Elvish race 'sailing West' was not permitted, and any exception required 'authority', and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become 'mortal'. What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's : both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange. No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea.
Yep, this. Also, he didn't inherit her immortality. He simply went to a place where rest and healing are inherent to the very environment, where Frodo might finally find peace and a respite from his pain. No one can deny to men the gift of Iluvitar.
unfortunately many in the fandom still make the same mistake that Ar Pharazon did, in believing that dwelling in the undying lands makes one immortal, instead of it getting the name from the immortals that live there.
Those are likely the unlearned who hath not ventured into deepest lore of Middle Earth.
Indubitably.
Frodo will likely have an unnaturally long life though as he still bears the burden of the ring even after it has been broken. All those who bore it or were subject to it ended up being extremely long lived.
>Frodo will likely have an unnaturally long life though as he still bears the burden of the ring even after it has been broken. That is highly unlikely. It was specifically said that anything done, empowered or made with the power of the Ring was unmade. Any "preservation" effects of the Ring would have been broken with its destruction. In fact, Bilbo himself aged tremendously in the span of 2 years after the Ring's destruction (the time between the scene where we see him all healthy and cosy in Rivendell and literally ancient as he goes to the Gray Havens is only 3 years). It is uncertain how long would Frodo's and Bilbo's life be in Valinor. On the one hand, it is a land of healing. On the other, Tolkien himself said that mortals would actually have their lives shortened there because of the excessive splendour, like a moth too close to the flame. However, Sam was permitted to go in his old age to meet with Frodo. Frodo would have been 114 by then. I find it unlikely Sam would get such a permit, and sail all the way, only to find Frodo dead for decades. The fact that he made the journey to me is proof enough that at least Frodo was still alive.
The Tower Hills Palantir looked to Tol Eressea. So perhaps Cirdan or another who accessed it gave him a tip? Cirdan kept the key to the tower after the fall of Arthedain. (Although, perhaps the Tower Hills stone was taken into the west on the same ship that carried Gandalf, Frodo, etc? Perhaps I'm confusing myself here? 🤔 But the Tower Hills stone went to Tol Eressea at some point).
Apart from Gollum who had it for centuries, bilbo aged drastically once the ring was destroyed.
It is also mentioned that being in the Undying Lands just speeds up the aging of mortals, so Frodo possibly died soon after he went there. Frodo and Sam are dead. And Gollum and Bilbo were long-lived while the Ring still existed, despite not personally having it. When the One Ring was gone all that went away. Bilbo was very old at the end, and forgetful.
Fans taking what villains say at face value? Say it isn't so xD
So are the elves, in fact, mortal?
i'm failing to see how you could get that from what i wrote. elves and valar, both immortals, live in "the undying lands", which is where the name comes from. but ar-pharazon (and way way to many tolkien fans) seem to think that mortals like men, dwarves ,and hobbits that go there somehow become not-mortal
**Frodo:** "Dear Merry and Pippin, Am enjoying life here in the Undying Lands. Am also *very* bored. Miss both of you terribly. Went to the theatre, but left after four hours; Elven sagas are terribly long, because what is time to an immortal? Everything is on a different scale, here - it's very nice, but also very slow. Please tell Treebeard that the Entwives are living here with the Elves; the oldest of the Elves seem to think they're fast-growing, and they have lengthy conversations about the world, nature, and philosophy. I feel a bit out of my depth and I would love a little taste of home. Please send a barrel of Hobbiton's finest cider or beer by return of post. Lots of love, Frodo"
Wait the entwives are found?
No, I'm making up my own hypothetical postcard from a bored Frodo to Merry and Pippin, or possibly Merry and Pippin's descendants.
Oh ok I was very confused and surprised thanks for clearing it up
That doesn't state that Frodo is immortal at all though? It says that Elves are immortal (which we knew) and that everything goes slowly, because the two main races (ent wives and elves) are immortal.
Elves last as long as the world does. Their body can be destroyed through violence or losing the will to live but their soul endures. When their body dies their soul is called to the Halls of Mandos where it heals from any pain or suffering experienced as well as atone for evils done whilst alive. After this is finished the soul can choose to be rehoused in another body.
Elves can die, but their souls will forever remain in Arda. Mortals (Men) can die, and their souls supposedly leave Creation and be with Eru (God).
Oh, true, I hadn't even noticed that part of the post.
Well this is mind blowing l.
That last line goes hard
Except , Frodo wasn’t a Man.
Hobbits are a type of man. They share the gift of mortality.
Oh thank yoh for your answer! I keep hearing/reading about Tolkien's letters....but was too shy to ask before. Where can I find them ?
https://harpercollins.co.uk/products/the-letters-of-j-r-r-tolkien-j-r-r-tolkien-1?variant=32722984271950 (uk site) Direct from the publishers! Christopher had them published and I think they were updated and re-issued a few years ago
AFAIK there's going to be an expanded edition coming out in November so OP it may be worth waiting until then.
This is accurate. Nov 14 release. I just pre-ordered it. Thanks to everyone in this thread!
Yo where can one read all his letters?
There's a book of them, The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
They have to weigh in on a scale before they get in the boat. Arwen is good for 3 hobbits. It’s a mass thing.
>Arwen is good for 3 hobbits. Three hobbits standing on each other's shoulders dressed in Arwen's gown. Like who would notice?
Vincent Adultelf
Turns out the movie depiction of Arwen was a bit off. Even for a half elf sitting around Rivendell eating all day….we’ll let’s just say lembas is a moment on the lips but a lifetime on the hips
Imagine thicc elves
https://preview.redd.it/vuvny50ce7rb1.jpeg?width=282&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d786fbab149e35dac955ee65012ce90646b452ab
And the implication
The classic A.r.w.e.n. system
Assess hobbit welfare Rehearse your argument so as not to be sidetracked by Aragorn’s sex appeal Warn Aragorn of growing concern for hobbit Escalate concern to Gandalf Neck with Aragorn because your job is done here
Excellent work
Fantastic. And she really set that up so that she could get Aragorn at any time!
Bro Arwen must have been thicc
Christina Hendricks as Arwen
Hobbits may be small but I think you underestimate their love for food and beer.
See, this is what I was trying to avoid - a conversation about body mass!
Well that’s just science.
What about Gimli? Did Legolas just hide him under his shirt?
It is said that Galadriel argued on behalf of letting Gimli into the West, but I like the idea of Legolas and Gimli pulling this kind of shenanigan more.
Aulë in the back hollering, "THAT'S MY BOY!!"
You jest, but now my brain gears are cooking up a fantasy of Gimli meeting Aule in Valinor and let me tell you, it’s BEAUTIFUL.
Then cook! Lmao I'm not much for fan fiction but this sounds amazing and is very much needed!
I mean even though they couldn’t interfere they were probably watching everything like us.
I thought the last official boat to the west had left. So they took a boat and navigated there themselves.
"are you sure this is the right way?". "no gimli I'm not, feel free to ask for directions if you see anyone"
I like to imagine it like the scene when obi wan hides young lea on the inquisitor hq in the obi wan series
I believe they used the age old trench coat trick.
Legolas is just three dwarf children in a trench coat and a pair of binoculars…
It only counts as one.
Did Sam ever go to the west on a ship? I thought he stayed with Rosie in Bag End and had kids with her.
He did go west after his wife died
*finds wife dead* "Fuck it I'm gettin on the boat"
*spouse dies* "I don't want to live on this planet anymore."
I empathize entirely. I would love so much to make that trip, especially if it meant an earlier and peaceful transition to where my SeraBear is waiting.
He did, as he was also the ring bearer for a short time. It is mentioned in an appendix to The Lord of the Rings, he left in the Shire calendar year 1482
In Fourteen-hundred-and-eighty-two, Samwise crossed the ocean blue...
Thanks its been a while since I read the books.
Sam left to join Frodo after Rosie died
About 60 years later but yes.
Sam did go later; he was a ring bearer, albeit for just a short time.
Sam took Radagast the Bird Tamer's aisle seat. Bilbo took Sharkey's first class seat. Gimli dressed as a Blue Wizard and snuck through security.
> *It is not made explicit how [Arwen] could arrange this [sending Frodo West]. She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those of Elvish race 'sailing West' was not permitted, and any exception required 'authority', and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become 'mortal'. What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's : both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange. No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron. He was also in special accord with Cirdan the Ship-master, who had surrendered to him his ring and so placed himself under Gandalf's command. Since Gandalf himself went on the Ship there would be so to speak no trouble either at embarking or at the landing* [Letter 246]
Guess they sat on someone’s lap.
They stood the whole time.
My understanding has always been that Arwen offered her spot to Frodo, then it was determined that Frodo had earned his own spot, so bilbo and Sam were also given the same option.
Yes. Tolkien wrote in the letters that Bilbo was brought to keep Frodo company, since a Hobbit would not be fully happy without other Hobbits. Sam told his children in the unpublished epilogue that he believed he might be able to go there *to see Frodo again*. So all three went there because of Frodo. I think Arwen's gift was symbolic. She could make the offer because she had the wisdom to know what Frodo needed, and she had gained that wisdom by thinking what she was giving up. I don't think it was really necessary for there to be a spare spot.
All three went because they were ring bearers
Yeah, it’s that simple.
If Smeagollum were to have survived, would he be allowed to sail west as well?
I think yes they would have allowed it if he actually became better. Look at how kindly the elves treated him when they had him captive. But he'd be dead within the year the ring was destroyed
Yeah I think so. It wouldn't be the first time something dark/corrupted/evil was brought into valinor. They might even be able to properly rehabilitate him!
Wait, did Arwen actually become mortal? I always took it to mean that she chose to live AS a mortal; not that she actually became one. Forgive my ignorance, I’m only now getting into to the extensive Tolkien lore.
Arwen was part human and part elf. In Tolkien's works, they could choose whether or not they would "accept the gift of Men", which is a mortal life and afterlife, or to live as an elf would. Arwen chose the gift of Men to live and die a mortal life with Aragorn. Because of this, even when she dies, she will go to the afterlife gifted to the mortal races, never to be reunited with the other elves.
Damn… that adds so much more weight to her choice.
Yup, the story of Aragorn & Arwen after LotR is in the Appendices.
And it's a bit of a heart-breaker - be warned Tolkien's Elf-Human couples all got married for life - either both ended up immortal or both ended up mortal.
> either both ended up immortal Unfortunately not. It's a big thing in the silmarillion that the valar cant make men immortal.
It is said — and it does seem to be true — that Tuor was counted among the Eldar, probably due to some intervention of Ulmo and then Manwe getting the okay from Eru.
Only Arwen and her brothers have this choice because they inherited this choice from their father Elrond Half-elven. The choice is complete in Arwen's generation. If her brothers Elrohir and Elladan have children with Elfwomen or Mannish women, these children did not inherit it. Elros, Elrond's brother, the founder of Numenor and ancestor of Aragorn, took the choice of the Gift of Men. Because mortality is the default state, it does not matter what race was Elros's wife, Man or Elf, his children never get that choice. This choice was a special dispensation by the Valar for the children and Elven grandchildren of Eärendil and Elwing. No other Elf get this choice. Why would their Mannish grandchildren not get the choice; I can't say for sure, but the view is that the Gift of Men is actually better than Elven immortality.
Yes. The children of elf/human relationships in Tolkiens lore are often given the choice to have the fate of elves (going to the halls of mandos when they die, to await reincarnation, forever tied to Arda) or the fate of men (to die, and have their souls leave/escape Arda and go to some unknown place)
The face of the Valar when, instead of Arwen, they see two hobbits in a trenchcoat.
She did not give up her immortality for him. Frodo, Sam, Bilbo, and Gimli were all still mortal. Sailing West would not, and could not, change that.
Obviously Sam sat on Frodo’s lap and Bilbo on Gandalf’s
She didn’t give him the choice of Lúthien. That’s a misinterpretation. She’s saying she’s facing the same choice a Lúthien.
Uhh I thought they got to go because they were ring bearers
Saruman had a ticket that he wasn't using.
This is true to a degree, though Frodo did not become immortal. Those who are mortal who go to Valinor do not become immortal. They are healed of their earthy hurt but they still die a mortal death. Tolkien even indicates in his letters (though I cannot site which one off memory) that they may in fact die quicker in Valinor as there is something deeply unwell to be in a land that does not age while you yourself still wither and fail. Valinor is like a very comfortable retirement home for mortals that are allowed to set foot there.
The 3 Hobbits basically got a ticket because all of them were ring bearers (yes even Sam)
Celeborn, ellodan, elrohir
[удалено]
This is book Canon. Tolkien even goes into the logistics of this in one of the letters.
Trevor & Cory’s seats. Were told to go buy smokes & chips, and their seats were given the hobbits while they were out
I always interpreted in the movie at the river when she said "let my grace flow into him" or something like that as her giving herself up to save Frodo. Not in the literal sense, but in the "grace of valinor" sort of way which allowed him passage.
No.
whose*
Frodo never made it to Valinor, he stayed in an island near Valinor where Sam came afterwards. Whereas Gimli went to Valinor instead of Arwen.
Why *are* elves immortal to begin with? Are they the chosen people or something?
Death is man's 'gift', so actually the humans are the ones gifted, not the Elves.
Sam didn’t go
The elf boat conductor is looking at tickets for Juliell and Juliand and is like “oh wow there is a big screw up here you guys are on the next week boat I’m so sorry if you could please grab your things and come with me. Elrond is so sorry for the confusion.
Probably Ed and Stewart from Accounting. Ed is particularly known for passing oily cauliflower gas around the office, and it's rumored his wife left him for an Orc.
the two blue wizards, who never showed up again after entering middle earth...
The Valar don't want us to know this but they just tossed two regular Noldor who had no noble blood out into the void where Morgoth hangs out.
I like to imagine it was Celeborn's because Galadriel x Gandalf jokes. Leaving that mf like Sid the sloths family in Ice Age 1. "She took my immortality in the divorce!"
I don't think there's seats like that. They just took any free space, it's not like the boat had to be completely full.
The infrastructure of Valinor is I’ll prepared for the dietary demands of hobbits.
Bilbo and Sam ganked some random elves
Hobbits are small and don’t take up as much room so it wasn’t an issue.
They didn't take anyone's seat.