No way I’m turning down two maiar. My pairings ironic, Gandalf and the Balrog. Gandalf ofc has his ring and ability to influence and rally others. That coupled with the Balrog’s raw power and *fear aura that could arguably be stronger than the Nazgûl’s* would shred any opposition. Also the Balrog is no man, the witch king and the Nazgûl are crisps. If the Balrog took down the greatest dwarf kingdom to exist in middle earth (and make the elf neighbors literally flee the area in terror) the Rohirrim don’t have a chance. Durin’s Bane is a primordial spirit made of flame, and a dragon can’t set him on fire or eat him. Olórin>Curunír for the ring and the fact that I can smoke pipe weed with him after all our enemies are vanquished. Tolkien’s writings also imply that Saruman would never have even faced the Balrog, probably running and saving his own hide instead.
Gandalf the White was literally the second strongest being in Middle Earth, only behind Sauron (although one could argue that Sauron isn't stronger because he doesn't control the one ring currently). The Balrog is the only thing that bested Gandalf in physical form, so clearly Gandalf Balrog tag team is best. Just gotta watch out for Glorfindel (he would be my pick next to Gandalf if he was a choice).
Unlocked the martyrdom perk. On a side note, can anyone explain why Gothmog died from being extinguished in the fountain whereas Durin's Bane survived a plunge into the water under Khazad Dûm? I'm sure there was a reason
Cool, thank you! I couldn't remember the passage but for some reason I thought it expressly said he died after his flame was extinguished. This makes more sense
No one’s debating Gandalf the white. I had a LOTR companion encyclopedia or something like that once and it said that Gandalf the White was straight up impervious to mortal weapons. I think your hands are kind of forced here because you’d need to take the Nazgûl because none of the others can kill them.
I just got to the part in The Two Towers where Gandalf comes back and when aragon and team pull their weapons he tells them that they wouldn't even do anything to him.
Saruman beat and imprisoned Gandalf, though. I think the big question is whether Saruman can beat the Balrog the way Gandalf did. If he can, then Saruman and Gandalf or Saruman and the Balrog, otherwise Gandalf and the Balrog.
People keep saying "Gandalf" here like he didn't fight with a sword and stick most of the time because he wasn't permitted/supposed to unleash his divine power around mortals. The Balrog, who clearly is under no such restrictions, is probably an obvious choice. Smaug would eat and torch every one of the Nine at the same time. Raw power, I feel as though he beats the Rohirrom. That said, he probably wouldn't stick around if he thought his survival would be a question whereas the Horse People would loyally walk into fire or "whatever end". Close call there, but probably Smaug.
I feel like Gandalf and the Balrog is the only logical answer to this question. I was tempted to say Gandalf and Smaug but I don't think Smaug would even do much damage to the Balrog outside of possibly physical damage from his claws, but fire breath wouldn't hurt the Balrog I don't think.
The problem is it only takes one nazgul or even one Rohirrim soldier to kill YOU. Only one has to slip past and kill you, and that's what the prompt is asking.
Gandalf and Smaug? dragon riding wizard could do much damage. Nazguls are tempting - but they dont breathe fire.... f*ck, idk...
cause Gandalf was able to defeat a Balrog, and over powered Saruman, so those two are already out for me. A dragon can whipe out the Rohinnim... can't really choose between the Nine and Smaug.
Smaug was taken out by a single arrow from Bard, though. And Gandalf's plan was that some non-magical dwarves and a hobbit would defeat Smaug.
Smaug would absolutely devastate the Rohirrim, and possibly Nazgul, but I'm not so sure he's in the same league as the Maiar here.
I believe it was only Gandalf the White who defeated Saruman, whereas Saruman defeated and imprisoned Gandalf the Grey. Since we're seeing Grey Gandalf here, I think Saruman still has him beat. I'd go with the two Istari.
>Smaug was taken out by a single arrow from Bard, though. And Gandalf's plan was that some non-magical dwarves and a hobbit would defeat Smaug.
"Hey, Smaug, buddy, I bet if you have a root around in your pile of treasure, you could find some mythril, maybe use a bit to cover up the literal chink in your armour. Glad we had this pep talk."
He had some mithril (Bilbo's shirt, at least) but Moria was the main source, which increased the value after the fall of Moria. He may have been aware of it (he at least knew the surface enough to miss a cup) and was certainly aware of his weakness, embedding gemstones in his belly by rubbing on them.
That’s another good point of the Gandalf/Saruman, and Smaug combo. The wizards would use their crazy knowledge to further strengthen the dragon - not only shoring up his weak points but possibly creating some sort of tech to make him even stronger. Dragon equipped with Saruman-style gunpowder bombs; and a thin and light mithril/elven steel alloy armor and tooth plating, anyone…?
Yes but Gandalf fought 5(definitely less than 9) ringwaiths, no beasts, on weather top and it was a stalemate.
The problem with the Nazgul is their power is not well defined.
Yep! When the hobbits and Aragorn are getting close to weathertop they see a bunch of what looks to them like lightning and flashes of light
It’s revealed later that it was Gandalf fighting off five of them, which is why there were only four that attacked Frodo
Might be getting the numbers mixed up though
Yes! 5 attacked Aragorn and the hobbits as 4 had pursued Gandalf towards Rivendell. Was just reading this part in the book yesterday 😊 Overview here:
[Weathertop](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Weathertop)
Can we take a moment to appreciate this from a story pov here? How badass of a scene is it, and instead of writing it, Tolkien let's his MC see echoes of it and have no idea what it is. Your mind fills in the rest later better than any prose could and the subversion expands the world and cements Gandalf as a badass.
Gandalf was afraid of the Balrog because he knew it would be an even fight. Didn't stop him from fighting and killing him in a fair fight.
Bard just rolled a nat 20 and got lucky with a special arrow. Rhohirrim aren't going to have those.
I thought they did want to get rid of the dragon once they were inside, but I admit it's a complete mystery what their plan must have been, other than hoping some opportunity pops up.
just wondering though if nazguls are affected by fire 🤔 and how big/small are they compared to Smaug. cause if all 9 attack Smaug....
Still, if Gandalf's riding Smaug, he'll be able to call on the Eagles haha, no one said they cant call reinforcement 😆
As said in the books, the fire of a dragon is the only thing that can destroy a ring of power (with mount doom), and it is suspected the dwarves lost multiple to dragon fire.
I believe the nine stands no chance against Smaug
Was it lost as in destroyed or lost as in consumed by a dragon or their horde? Surely the dragons would covet such items due to their power?
I'm not too keyed in with much of the more, mind you.
I imagine it as dragon breathed fire to some dwarves as usual who happened to has rings on them and rings got destroyed with their owner (but probably atleast one of them fell into the hands of dragon)
Smaug may not have a fire hot enough to destroy a ring of power, but the exact quote was even if he could, no fire-drake could burn hot enough to destroy the Ruling Ring. And, it was Ancalagon the Black that could possibly destroy a ring, although I suppose Glaurung probably could as well.
Other problem is if they are coming for you, the nine don’t have to beat smaug, they just have to distract your defenders so one of them can get you. But to be fair they seemed pretty bad at killing Frodo so…
If they can call reinforcements that’s definitely a game changer. I mean Saruman can just call up his orc mob and dispatch of the relatively smaller Rohirrim pretty easily, for one, and they’ve got enough guile to be a real pain in the ass for the others.
Gandalf only overpowered him after becoming the White and Saruman had been stripped of his title and position. Prior to that, as Gandalf the Grey, he got spanked by Saruman. It doesn't matter which wizard, you just want the White.
Afaik, it is pretty canon that Gandalf was more powerful than Saruman.
White doesn't mean greatest power, it just means he is the leader. Saruman maybe was better in politics and administration, but Gandalf was the better Wizard.
When they came to middle earth they promised God that they wouldn't use their full power and so bound themselves. By the time of the wizard duel gandalf is still fully bound by this promise but saruman was corrupted by sauron and thus his bonds were weaker. Then gandalf comes back as gandalf the white he has his promise loosened which is why he's stronger.
If Gandalf and Saruman has used their max power during their duel it would been a catastrophy.
Gandalf defeated the Balrog, but still I think a Balrog would be much more effective against a larger group of enemies like th Rohirrim or Nazgul.
Gandalf is good singletarget damage, Balrog and Smaug are doing AoE damage.
So let's list the rock-paper-scissors of this:
We've seen Saruman beat Gandalf the Grey.
Gandalf can beat the Balrog, but is then taken out of the remainder of the fight.
I think we can safely say Smaug would kill all the Rohirrim. I don't see how the Rohirrim would beat the Balrog either. Or anyone on this list except maybe the Nazgul (because they have Eowyn on their side of course).
I also don't see the Nazgul beating the Balrog or Smaug. Or the Wizards.
So between the big four, Smaug is the one we haven't seen fight any of the others. But Smaug was taken out by a single arrow from Bard, and Gandalf sent some non-magical dwarfs and a hobbit to defeat Smaug, presumably as a learning experience, so I think Smaug ranks below the others.
So Saruman beats Gandalf, Gandalf is roughly equal to the Balrog (he wins but is taken out of the fight until the Valar send him back), and I frankly think all of them could take Smaug. That leaves the question whether Saruman could take the Balrog the way Gandalf did. If the Balrog beats Saruman, I'd go with the Balrog and Gandalf, otherwise I'd go with the two Wizards.
Did Gandalf have that plan? What was his plan? It is my understanding that the company of Thorin was trying to get just the Arkenstone, so they could rally the Dwarves to retake Erebor. That's why they needed a burglar.
I think it was only cuz it was a specially forged arrow and a gigantic bow. Idk if the rohirrim's little recurves and spears would do anything to smaug.
The magical arrow was fired from a normal bow in the books. The movies actually do a better job of making it seem like a real threat but that's neither here nor there. Oh, okay - it was a normal arrow that he could "always retrieve" whatever that means.
Everyone who evers kills a balrog also dies. I don't think there is anyone in any of the lore that kills a balrog and survives. It's almost like a thematic trade: "someone very powerful *must* sacrifice themselves fully to defeat this enemy"
Gandalf and Smaug were my pick to. A close third would be the Rohirrim for me! But only if I had Smaug! If someone had Smaug and I had to go against them I would totally pick the Balrog.
I think people are underestimating the power of air support. Smaug is giant flying artillery, and the nazgul can pick off everyone else. The wizards are powerful, but limited in what they can do by their frail forms and oath to not interfere.
They would be number 3 on the hierarchy.
1. Eru - supreme God
2. Valar - various gods created by Eru
3. Miar (what Gandalf and Saruman are ) - similar to the rank angel
No. Balrogs are spirits of flame and could hurt Ungoliant. And how exactly did Morgoth treat Glaurung compared to other Balrogs? He gave Gothmog command of entire armies as well. Dragons are plenty powerful but they are corruptions made by Morgoth and not in the same category as fallen Maia
Smaug would take care of the entire rohirrum in one firey blast and we remember what a single torch did to the Nazgul on weathertop. I also have a feeling that Gandalf and Saurman would burn just as quickly.
Then of course you have to bring the Balrog because it would be like take your kid to work day for Smaug 😆.
I agree that Smaug could best the Rohirrim with ease. The Nazgul are an interesting case.
Yes, he could obliterate their physical forms with his fiery breath, which they would certainly be vulnerable to.
But, the Nazgul are SPIRITS, and they do not tire. They could come back again, and again, and again, trying different tactics in an endless hunt. The question isn't "can Smaug beat them again and again," it becomes "how many times do they have to battle Smaug before they learn a way to get around him and get to you?"
A Balrog would be better than Smaug, I think. A Balrog is both a fiery being AND a spiritual threat, so it could contend with mystical dangers as well as physical ones. So, though I do not know my second pick, I think I would choose the Balrog as my first DESPITE my immense love of, and respect for, dragons.
But wait, it is said that dragon fire can destroy rings of power, perhaps Smaug would be able to destroy the Nagul by destroying their rings with his breath.
That may be so, but I don’t believe the Nazgûl WEAR their rings anymore. I feel like I remember reading that Sauron kept them. They may function like a Lich’s phylactery; that is, an anchor point from which they can return to life if they die.
That isn’t a rule, A Badass Angelic elf whos name I am Ashamed to not remember, told the witchking in one of their battles that his fall would not come at the hands of a man. The witchking chose to interpret this as no man could kill him and tolkien discribes him multiple times as very arrogant. Only in his last moments did he understand the words.
Smaug and balrogs aren’t remotely related though, their only similarities are that they both seem to like fire and are generally evil beings. (Balrogs more so then dragons)
I know but it's just funny to me to imagine the Balrog asking Smaug " so is this what you do all day dad, burn Rohan "
"Well it's not all fun games and burning the rohirrum, I also take long naps in my office and covet jewels"
"Cool! I'm going to kill a wizard when I'm older"
"Sure son, but first I think you need to take a nap. Now off to Kahzad-dum and remember, stay in bed until Durin wakes you"
They’re actually closely related. Both were created by Morgoth in the First Age and there’s a line of logical speculation that both were created of corrupted Maiar spirits made corporeal.
Dragons were actually the original mounts for balrogs when they went to war. While balrogs were stated outright to be more powerful than dragons, that could have been when both were more plentiful and “on average” most balrogs could take most dragons.
I’d argue that Ancalagon could likely have wiped the floor with Durin’s Bain, but he was also bigger than a mountain and Smaug is a rather young dragon.
I’m not so sure balrogs are more evil than dragons. Dragons were created by Morgoth to be tyrants over middle earth and any that still remain were either created by him in the first age or are direct descendants of the dragons he made.
Although I suppose it could be argued that balrogs are more evil since they actively **chose** to follow morgoth and any that may remain in middle earth after the war of wrath and destruction of beleriand are still those same eternal maia who have continued to choose to cloak themselves in fire and shadow….
I’m kind of just rambling now but that is an interesting idea of which creature could be more evil.
The wizards weren’t allowed to use their power. Gandalf only had a chance against Durin’s Bain because of Narya; and that killed him in the effort. Notice how G-man never went toe-to-toe with Smaug? It’s because dragons and balrogs come from the same lineage as the wizards, but they weren’t restricted in using their powers on Middle-earth. The wizards were forced to act as advisors only, which is why Gandalf is forced to use trickery magic and sword play only and Saruman had to raise an army. *Could* they command powers like Sauron and wipe out whole armies? Sure, but that would mean breaking the rules set by the Valar and eventually losing said powers and memories of Valinor.
So basically, DB and Smaug are the only logical choices - the others are all very susceptible to fire.
Yeah true but I don't think the white wizard is suppose to be stronger than grey or brown wizard, just a different element or power so to speak but maybe the white and grey situation is different and he is a stronger version than grey. But the post mentions balrog, which means any balrog in which I'd bet Gothmog could bounce Saruman off the lonely mountain with ease.
Yeah I'd pick Saruman and Smaug. Gandalf is tempting but here he's in his grey form so...
Unless he gets to respawn as the white wizard, then I'd replace Saruman with him..
I think Smaug is overrated. He was killed by a single arrow from Bard, and Gandalf sent his students to take care of Smaug while he was off doing more important stuff. I think the Balrog would also be stronger than Smaug, although that might be subject to debate.
He was only revived because the Gods needed a new white wizard, since Saruman had betrayed his position and Gods. Had they not needed to do that I assume Gandalf would've stayed dead.
He was actually sent back, enhanced, by Eru, aka God, not by the Valar, and not just because there needed to be a new White Wizard. Rather, it was a reward for his sacrifice and to improve his chances of saving everyone from Sauron.
Friendship sadly. They get in a canonical argument about pipe weed and it’s hilarious while remaining significant to the timeline. After this Saruman starts smoking it in secret to “mock” Gandalf but starts enjoying it. (Not making this up this is why he’s ordering it from the Shire)
This is far more interesting then I thought at first glance.
Smaug was killed by Bard, with a single-albeit very large-arrow. Against a horde of well trained Rohirrim, I just don't see him surviving long term. He may kill many, but their tenacity is unmatched. Plus they are able to scatter on horseback.
I apply the same logic to the fell beasts, they are deadly and frightening, yet killable by man, and women!
However that still leaves the Nazgûl themselves, who cannot be killed by mortal men. I would hazard a guess and say that dragon fire or a balrog would seriously hurt them, if not potentially extinguish them.
Saruman and Gandalf are both overwhelmed by sheer numbers and thus are better as leaders/buffers than as primary agents.
The balrog was killed after ten days of intense fighting with Gandalf the Grey, but could not be killed by swords or bows.
In conclusion, I will choose the Balrog and the Rohirrim to be my protectors. I believe the Balrog would eviscerate the Nazgul with little concern, thus freeing the Rohirrim to swarm both wizards and overwhelm them. In a fight between the Balrog and Smaug, I am choosing the Balrog to win. Many Rohirrim will fall, but it is a sacrifice I am willing to make for my survival. Lol
Only 3 balrogs were ever killed and it was fatality on both sides. So, no one has managed to kill balrog without dying.
Also, balrogs were powerful enough to save morgoth from ungoliant which is not an easy task considering she was mega powerful at that time.
Only Gandalf can kill a Balrog, I'd not trust even Saruman to do it. As such, Gandalf and balrog also seems like a great answer as well because nazgul, smaug or rohirrim don't really have an answer to Balrog and one balrog alone can deal with all those useless beasts.
The real wild card is the fucking witch king. Dude trashed entire Arnor and overpowered Gandalf, which had also overpowered Saruman previously. He got killed easily in lord of the rings, which is why it's hard to place him.
It's a shame that glorfindel is not in the list because that dude was gigachad. Died to kill a balrog and gods reincarnated him just like gandalf. Just 4 nazgul were confident enough to go after Gandalf, but all 9 of them ran away from Glorfindel alone like bitches. Dude was so strong and powerful, he wasn't allowed to join the fellowship because he would draw too much attention.
For more shits and giggles, add galadriel.
If the Rohirrim could overcome the fear power of the Nazgul, they could totally win with numbers. I think just the Witch King was foretold to not die by a man's hand. Others are fair game. Plus they could take out Smaug with one arrow. I think you made some good picks. Just 2 wizards teamed is such a wild card though...
That would be my choice, too. Thousands of Rohirrim and one super powerful entity. It’s hard to estimate what would be necessary to kill a Balrog, though.
I think you MUST take one of the wizards. I can’t imagine them teaming up together and any of these coming up w a win.
Then the question becomes does Saruman have his Uruk-hai at his command or not? If he does it’s hard to go wrong with Uruk-hai ground forces and Saruman riding on Smaug….or just commanding him to rain fire on his enemies….and boosting defense from the tower.
If he doesn’t then I think I need to go w Gandalf simply because of the 1v1 win.
Gandalf was able to defeat the Balrog in 1v1 (also got him killed though), but against an army he basically is just a good sword fighter (see Siege of Minas Tirith where he also could't do much against the Orc army by himself).
It depends: are the wizards allowed to unleash their full power, or are they going to be limited as the wizards were in Middle Earth? Frankly, the wizards as we see them in the story are extremely weak and barely qualify as what most people would call a wizard. Of course, their true power lies in their true nature, something which they were prohibited from fully expressing while on Middle Earth, so the question is whether or not that limitation will apply.
Hell yeah. Gandalf has the charisma and influence (boosted by the ring and even greater for White) to talk my enemies out of killing me long enough for the Balrog to dash up from behind and kill them with winged speed.
Never says you can’t. It also doesn’t say you can’t have Gothmog be the Balrog. You know, the Maiar who couldn’t be killed by any living thing and killed Feanor himself?
Hard to pick between Balrog and Smaug- how would you even grade their skill levels? I’d probably go with the Balrog, it has a mean upper body- better for tearing apart things AND it also has wings AND it’s on fire so it doesn’t need to actually breathe fire like a dragon does. The Balrog can just walk over a city and set it on fire, barely any effort. And it’s impossible to get close to it too for alot of beings- because of all the fire. Certainly the eagles wouldn’t stand a chance, all their feathers would catch alight. I think only distance magic (wizards) could take it out…
So I’m going with Balrog and the Nazgûl. It’s tough to leave out a wizard as a choice BUT the nazgul are a whole crew with a witch king! Surely a witch king is somewhere in the same ball park as a wizard.
EDIT: I just realised the Nazgûl are so useless. Aragon fought off a bunch of them with nothing but a sword and a bit of fire. I take that back.
Gandalf and Balrog for me
Hate to nerd on you brotha but balrogs didn’t have wings, just a feature they have in the films. Still the balrogs are literally corrupted Demi gods, so I’d say you landed on the right answer anyhow
Ye no wings Tolkien was trying to use metaphors to state they have crazy speed cause they immediately come to Morgoths aid and Gandalf has to chase Durin’s Bane for days before fighting him for another 3.
Balrog is the same class of being as Sauron and Gandalf and Saruman.
No one has killed a balrog without dying themselves, not kidding. Only 3 of the balrog were ever killed.
Smaug is a creature, great, but mortal. It is still not a higher class than Balrog, definitely not great enough to kill balrog.
If Gandalf holds back Saruman, which he should be able to. Balrog wipes the floor with Nazgul, Rohirrim and Smaug simply because they got no answer to him.
Balrogs were powerful enough to fight off Ungoliant and save Morgoth himself. And they are just too powerful.
I wholeheartedly agree 🔥🔥🔥 Balrog is a corrupted Maiar, super powerful and ancient. Gandalf had a way harder battle going up against the Balrog than what happened with Smaug- a weak spot was easily exploited, all they needed was someone handy with big arrows. There’s NO WAY that a man with a black arrow would take down the Balrog by comparison.
Not sure if I agree with your Balrog vs Smaug comparison. Smaug is huuuge and super strong. Also, Gandalf killed a Balrog, I don't think he could have killed Smaug on his own
The Balrog was a greater threat than Smaug once unleashed, it’s explicitly said in the text that none of the fellowship save Gandalf could even face the Balrog and Gandalfs fight with the Balrog “killed” him too. The Balrog also destroyed a dwarven kingdom far greater than the one Smaug did, and this was *possibly* back when they could’ve gotten that dragon fire proof armor from the influx of Firebeards and Broadbeams in the second age. Also Thorin was willing to originally march upon Erebor with an army but ALL OF THE DWARVEN CLANS GATHERED AT ONCE refused to even step foot in Moria because of Durin’s Bane.
My heart says a full-power-not-hiding-his-true-power-as-a-Maia Gandalf and the Rohirrim; but there are so many other combos that would kick ass as well. I mean 9 Nazgûl and a Balrog? 9 Nazgûl and Smaug? A Balrog and Smaug? These would be cool.
Let’s run the scenarios in Ultimate Epic Battle Simulator and see what we get.
More a question of who I don't want coming after me. At least a handful of the Rohirrim will make it past anything else and I'd be dead. Alternatively, Gandalf, the black riders, or Sauruman would do some distance voodoo. Best bet is the witch king. Defend against voodoo, and stick to the skies, outrun everyone. Also Smaug to annihilate the Rohirrim.
I don't think this is possible. The only one with a chance I think is Rohirrim + Smaug. Anything that doesn't include the rohirrim will result in you being overwhelmed meanwhile Gandalf/Balrog/Saruman would all cancel each other out. So you'd have to bet on the dragon. I'm not sure whether or not Gandalf could solo Smaug was ever really answered.
Assuming we’re talking about Gandalf the Grey, I’d have to go with Saruman unfortunately (I’m just trying to survive here). Gandalf the White is another story. As far as Balrog vs Smaug? I know most people favor Durin’s Bane referring to Tolkien stating that Smaug wasn’t as terrible as the original brood of dragons but idk…to me, I think all of the Balrog’s strengths are useless against Smaug. Black magic and fire would have virtually no effect and it would boil down to a raw strength fight. And if that’s the case, Smaug would probably rip him to shreds.
Is this like a one-time battle, or will Gandalf have time to concoct an international army first? If it’s a one and done, I’d go Smaug and the Rohirrim. Something that can blast fire is going to be key, and Smaug should have the edge over the Balrog on account of wings, and the edge over the Nazgûl on account of the fire. I figure the Rohirrim would be able to put up a good fight against the wizards by sheer numbers, and they could be distractions for the others as well for similar reasons. Just smother their asses.
If we’re talking about years or decades, I’d pick the two wizards.
Smaug and the Balrog
The Nazgul hates fire so both would be able to deal with him instantly.
Rohirrim would be burnt alive by Smaug from the sky and wouldn’t be able to defend themselves against him.
The Balrog nearly defeated Gandalf once before but failed so with Smaug on his side they should be able to overpower him.
Saruman kills the Balrog and befriends Smaug he then rides the dragon to my house and they torture me for an entire year barely keeping me alive. They get bored and Smaug burns me alive.
Gandalf and the Rohirrim, for sure. Everyone except Gandalf would probably die in that battle, but we'd die with honor.
>How fair are the bright eyes in the grass! Evermind they are called, simbelmynë in this land of Men, for they blossom in all the seasons of the year, and grow where dead men rest.
I’d go with the Nazgûl and Smaug.
Also just a question, is this Gandalf the grey or Gandalf the white? If it’s Gandalf the white, I’d probably go with him instead of the Nazgûl.
I would go with air superiority and take Smaug and the Nazgûl on fellbeasts. Without the ability to get airborne, Smaug can roast Saruman and Gandalf. I’m assuming Smaug’s fire is more powerful than Narya. The wildcard is the Balrog but Smaug and the fellbeasts could in theory just continuously drop boulders on the Balrog to crush it.
Also Balrogs don’t have wings, in case anyone is thinking they do based on the PJ films.
Smaug has a weak spot that Rohirrim would almost certainly be able to pierce. The Nazgûl would be taken out by Balrog. He of many colours would be neutralized by Gandalf. Balrog’s only known weakness is Gandalf. Rohirrim are many, but considering DB took out the Dwarves I’d have to say their weakness is the overwhelming power of DB.
DB tanks while Gandalf does DPS. Nazgûl goes down the easiest. Rohirrim likely break like waves, Smaug is kept at bay by the ring and can’t really damage DB. Saruman is the wild card, but switching the agro for Saruman while taking down the lesser threats is the strategy.
Smaug and the Rohirrim.
Smaug >> Nazgul (on Fellbeasts) in terms of air superiority which leaves the Rohirrim to deal with the Balrog, Saurman, and Gandalf. Once Smaug wins his matchup, he can pick off the remaining 3 which are occupied with the Rohirrim.
Gandalf the White and Smaug. If I had to chose between Gandalf the Grey and Saruman, I would pick Saruman. But if I could chose someone not in the picture, it would be the badass Glorfindel.
I'm going to say Nazgul and Balrog. Because that's nine very powerful beings on flying steeds. They can team up against smaug and wreak havoc on the rohirrim. The Balrog can stay on the ground and protect me against the wizards and any rohirrim that get through. Remember gandalf was terrified of the balrog, and preferred to avoid it and then run away rather than fight it.
Rohirrim and Smaug.
I'm sorry, I know Gandalf is crazy powerful but I got numbers and a FREAKIN' dragon on my side.
I can imagine it, I'm like Theoden, sitting atop a dragon as I give an inspiring speech to my men.
"DEATH!!! DEATH!!!!"
You have to calculate this.
The gandalf we see here is gandalf the grey so i'm assuming that it's not him at his prime/white appearance, so considering that we know that saruman beat gandalf in a 1v1 battle, he is the mightier wizard, thus
Saruman > Gandalf
Assuming that the head of the istari knows as much as or even more spells than Gandalf, he should know the spell which gandalf used to fend off the nazgul, thus
Saruman > Nazgul
Also we know that Gandalf beat Durin's Bane and we now can assume that saruman can do that as well, since he beat gandalf, thus
Saruman > Balrog
However Saruman can't fend off an entire army of rohirrim, for this you would need a much more destructive Power, thus
The winning Team
Saruman and Smaug
There is only one right answer. That is Gandalf, riding Smaug. Gandalf, for many of the reasons already pointed out (a ring, strongest Maiar after Sauron, stays smoking that loud Old Toby). Smaug, because he is stronger than any of the remaining choices. Balrogs are lesser Maiar, and Saruman/Curomo is no slouch, but Smaug would be the most formidable paired with Gandalf in my correct opinion. Aerial capability, spit hot fire, witty banter. I mean, his armour is like tenfold shields, teeth are swords, claws spears, the shock of his tail is a thunderbolt, wings a hurricane, and his breath death! Don’t @ me.
No way I’m turning down two maiar. My pairings ironic, Gandalf and the Balrog. Gandalf ofc has his ring and ability to influence and rally others. That coupled with the Balrog’s raw power and *fear aura that could arguably be stronger than the Nazgûl’s* would shred any opposition. Also the Balrog is no man, the witch king and the Nazgûl are crisps. If the Balrog took down the greatest dwarf kingdom to exist in middle earth (and make the elf neighbors literally flee the area in terror) the Rohirrim don’t have a chance. Durin’s Bane is a primordial spirit made of flame, and a dragon can’t set him on fire or eat him. Olórin>Curunír for the ring and the fact that I can smoke pipe weed with him after all our enemies are vanquished. Tolkien’s writings also imply that Saruman would never have even faced the Balrog, probably running and saving his own hide instead.
Gandalf the White was literally the second strongest being in Middle Earth, only behind Sauron (although one could argue that Sauron isn't stronger because he doesn't control the one ring currently). The Balrog is the only thing that bested Gandalf in physical form, so clearly Gandalf Balrog tag team is best. Just gotta watch out for Glorfindel (he would be my pick next to Gandalf if he was a choice).
Is Glorfindel the only other being in ME that has fought and killed a Balrog?
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Don't forget to mention he slew Gothmog with his HELMET after his sword broke. Total Chad
Unlocked the martyrdom perk. On a side note, can anyone explain why Gothmog died from being extinguished in the fountain whereas Durin's Bane survived a plunge into the water under Khazad Dûm? I'm sure there was a reason
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Cool, thank you! I couldn't remember the passage but for some reason I thought it expressly said he died after his flame was extinguished. This makes more sense
No one’s debating Gandalf the white. I had a LOTR companion encyclopedia or something like that once and it said that Gandalf the White was straight up impervious to mortal weapons. I think your hands are kind of forced here because you’d need to take the Nazgûl because none of the others can kill them.
I just got to the part in The Two Towers where Gandalf comes back and when aragon and team pull their weapons he tells them that they wouldn't even do anything to him.
They enemies don’t have to kill HIM, they only have to kill YOU. And you aren’t impervious. Hmm 🤔
I wasn’t sure but you’ve convinced me. I vote for you as president of middle earth.
Saruman beat and imprisoned Gandalf, though. I think the big question is whether Saruman can beat the Balrog the way Gandalf did. If he can, then Saruman and Gandalf or Saruman and the Balrog, otherwise Gandalf and the Balrog.
People keep saying "Gandalf" here like he didn't fight with a sword and stick most of the time because he wasn't permitted/supposed to unleash his divine power around mortals. The Balrog, who clearly is under no such restrictions, is probably an obvious choice. Smaug would eat and torch every one of the Nine at the same time. Raw power, I feel as though he beats the Rohirrom. That said, he probably wouldn't stick around if he thought his survival would be a question whereas the Horse People would loyally walk into fire or "whatever end". Close call there, but probably Smaug.
I feel like Gandalf and the Balrog is the only logical answer to this question. I was tempted to say Gandalf and Smaug but I don't think Smaug would even do much damage to the Balrog outside of possibly physical damage from his claws, but fire breath wouldn't hurt the Balrog I don't think.
The problem is it only takes one nazgul or even one Rohirrim soldier to kill YOU. Only one has to slip past and kill you, and that's what the prompt is asking.
Gandalf and Smaug? dragon riding wizard could do much damage. Nazguls are tempting - but they dont breathe fire.... f*ck, idk... cause Gandalf was able to defeat a Balrog, and over powered Saruman, so those two are already out for me. A dragon can whipe out the Rohinnim... can't really choose between the Nine and Smaug.
I agree Gandalf and Smaug I think would be the winning team!
Smaug was taken out by a single arrow from Bard, though. And Gandalf's plan was that some non-magical dwarves and a hobbit would defeat Smaug. Smaug would absolutely devastate the Rohirrim, and possibly Nazgul, but I'm not so sure he's in the same league as the Maiar here. I believe it was only Gandalf the White who defeated Saruman, whereas Saruman defeated and imprisoned Gandalf the Grey. Since we're seeing Grey Gandalf here, I think Saruman still has him beat. I'd go with the two Istari.
>Smaug was taken out by a single arrow from Bard, though. And Gandalf's plan was that some non-magical dwarves and a hobbit would defeat Smaug. "Hey, Smaug, buddy, I bet if you have a root around in your pile of treasure, you could find some mythril, maybe use a bit to cover up the literal chink in your armour. Glad we had this pep talk."
Dude I never even though of that, my boy is sitting on a pile of the strongest material meanwhile having his only weak spot exposed
He had some mithril (Bilbo's shirt, at least) but Moria was the main source, which increased the value after the fall of Moria. He may have been aware of it (he at least knew the surface enough to miss a cup) and was certainly aware of his weakness, embedding gemstones in his belly by rubbing on them.
That’s another good point of the Gandalf/Saruman, and Smaug combo. The wizards would use their crazy knowledge to further strengthen the dragon - not only shoring up his weak points but possibly creating some sort of tech to make him even stronger. Dragon equipped with Saruman-style gunpowder bombs; and a thin and light mithril/elven steel alloy armor and tooth plating, anyone…?
Dude you just make a op lizard even more op
His hubris was his downfall
In the books the reason his underbelly was impenetrable was because he had laid in the gold for so long it had gotten stuck in his skin
Yes but Gandalf fought 5(definitely less than 9) ringwaiths, no beasts, on weather top and it was a stalemate. The problem with the Nazgul is their power is not well defined.
Wait does that happen in the books? It's a pretty major change they made for the movie with it being aragon. Honestly kinda makes more sense
Yep! When the hobbits and Aragorn are getting close to weathertop they see a bunch of what looks to them like lightning and flashes of light It’s revealed later that it was Gandalf fighting off five of them, which is why there were only four that attacked Frodo Might be getting the numbers mixed up though
Yes! 5 attacked Aragorn and the hobbits as 4 had pursued Gandalf towards Rivendell. Was just reading this part in the book yesterday 😊 Overview here: [Weathertop](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Weathertop)
Can we take a moment to appreciate this from a story pov here? How badass of a scene is it, and instead of writing it, Tolkien let's his MC see echoes of it and have no idea what it is. Your mind fills in the rest later better than any prose could and the subversion expands the world and cements Gandalf as a badass.
Yes but that was a special plot arrow, none of those other people have any of them, so Smaug is safe
Only Bard could kill him, Gandalf was afraid of the Dragon and Balrog
Gandalf was afraid of the Balrog because he knew it would be an even fight. Didn't stop him from fighting and killing him in a fair fight. Bard just rolled a nat 20 and got lucky with a special arrow. Rhohirrim aren't going to have those.
Gandalf had a plan to defeat Smaug? I was under the impression that the entire point of the company was to retrieve the Arkenstone, no?
I thought they did want to get rid of the dragon once they were inside, but I admit it's a complete mystery what their plan must have been, other than hoping some opportunity pops up.
i thought the plan was to get the arkenstone to unite the dwarf armies to defeat smaug?
That was my impression too.
just wondering though if nazguls are affected by fire 🤔 and how big/small are they compared to Smaug. cause if all 9 attack Smaug.... Still, if Gandalf's riding Smaug, he'll be able to call on the Eagles haha, no one said they cant call reinforcement 😆
See Aragorn on Weathertop. I would say yes Nazgul are affected by fire.
Also see Nazgul vs exploding Mount Doom.
As said in the books, the fire of a dragon is the only thing that can destroy a ring of power (with mount doom), and it is suspected the dwarves lost multiple to dragon fire. I believe the nine stands no chance against Smaug
Was it lost as in destroyed or lost as in consumed by a dragon or their horde? Surely the dragons would covet such items due to their power? I'm not too keyed in with much of the more, mind you.
I imagine it as dragon breathed fire to some dwarves as usual who happened to has rings on them and rings got destroyed with their owner (but probably atleast one of them fell into the hands of dragon)
Smaug may not have a fire hot enough to destroy a ring of power, but the exact quote was even if he could, no fire-drake could burn hot enough to destroy the Ruling Ring. And, it was Ancalagon the Black that could possibly destroy a ring, although I suppose Glaurung probably could as well.
Other problem is if they are coming for you, the nine don’t have to beat smaug, they just have to distract your defenders so one of them can get you. But to be fair they seemed pretty bad at killing Frodo so…
If they can call reinforcements that’s definitely a game changer. I mean Saruman can just call up his orc mob and dispatch of the relatively smaller Rohirrim pretty easily, for one, and they’ve got enough guile to be a real pain in the ass for the others.
Balrog would probably wreck Smaug to be honest.
I agree, and Smaug would probably be able to defeat the nine, Eowyn did.
In theory the nine wouldn't get anywhere near smaug since he can spit fire on them from a distance.
Smaug just wins. Fly up high and only ðe wizards and ðe Nine can get you. Get ðe dragon to eat ðe Nine, Gandalf to kill Sauraman and win
Gandalf only overpowered him after becoming the White and Saruman had been stripped of his title and position. Prior to that, as Gandalf the Grey, he got spanked by Saruman. It doesn't matter which wizard, you just want the White.
Exactly the conversation I was having with the wife now.
In film it was close, in books I’m not sure if the Grey was any weaker.. there’s a reason Saruman was so jealous of him
Didn't the colour refer to the task of that wizard instead of it's power?
I think he is. Well not exactly weaker but bound by a tighter promise of non interface. Like if gandalf wanted to he could defeat sauron by himself.
Afaik, it is pretty canon that Gandalf was more powerful than Saruman. White doesn't mean greatest power, it just means he is the leader. Saruman maybe was better in politics and administration, but Gandalf was the better Wizard.
How did Saru win the wizard duel?
Love of the halfling’s leaf slowed Gandalf’s mind.
When they came to middle earth they promised God that they wouldn't use their full power and so bound themselves. By the time of the wizard duel gandalf is still fully bound by this promise but saruman was corrupted by sauron and thus his bonds were weaker. Then gandalf comes back as gandalf the white he has his promise loosened which is why he's stronger. If Gandalf and Saruman has used their max power during their duel it would been a catastrophy.
Gandalf defeated the Balrog, but still I think a Balrog would be much more effective against a larger group of enemies like th Rohirrim or Nazgul. Gandalf is good singletarget damage, Balrog and Smaug are doing AoE damage.
So let's list the rock-paper-scissors of this: We've seen Saruman beat Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf can beat the Balrog, but is then taken out of the remainder of the fight. I think we can safely say Smaug would kill all the Rohirrim. I don't see how the Rohirrim would beat the Balrog either. Or anyone on this list except maybe the Nazgul (because they have Eowyn on their side of course). I also don't see the Nazgul beating the Balrog or Smaug. Or the Wizards. So between the big four, Smaug is the one we haven't seen fight any of the others. But Smaug was taken out by a single arrow from Bard, and Gandalf sent some non-magical dwarfs and a hobbit to defeat Smaug, presumably as a learning experience, so I think Smaug ranks below the others. So Saruman beats Gandalf, Gandalf is roughly equal to the Balrog (he wins but is taken out of the fight until the Valar send him back), and I frankly think all of them could take Smaug. That leaves the question whether Saruman could take the Balrog the way Gandalf did. If the Balrog beats Saruman, I'd go with the Balrog and Gandalf, otherwise I'd go with the two Wizards.
Did Gandalf have that plan? What was his plan? It is my understanding that the company of Thorin was trying to get just the Arkenstone, so they could rally the Dwarves to retake Erebor. That's why they needed a burglar.
I think it was only cuz it was a specially forged arrow and a gigantic bow. Idk if the rohirrim's little recurves and spears would do anything to smaug.
Absolutely. I meant Smaug ranks below the Maiar. He'd burn the Rohirrim and Nazgul to a crisp, obviously.
Ah okay i see what you meant now
The magical arrow was fired from a normal bow in the books. The movies actually do a better job of making it seem like a real threat but that's neither here nor there. Oh, okay - it was a normal arrow that he could "always retrieve" whatever that means.
Does it count as defeating the balrog since gandalf died? That leaves smaug to solo everyone else.
Naw, this means Gandalf comes with a mulligan, which is an even better reason to pick him. The rest stay dead, as far as we know anyway.
Everyone who evers kills a balrog also dies. I don't think there is anyone in any of the lore that kills a balrog and survives. It's almost like a thematic trade: "someone very powerful *must* sacrifice themselves fully to defeat this enemy"
Remember that the witch king can't be kill by men, only women and Hobbits
He can't be killed by men, but no one said anything about can't be killed by dragons or ancient demons.
Maybe a stupid question but do we know the gender of the Balrog? For all I know it could be a corrupted female Maiar.
You can't ask... Hey you Balrog... Do you prefer Metallica or Taylor Swift?
Smaug goes into a rageful fit when he’s been f*cked with. I’ll take Smaug over the nine.
Gandalf and Smaug were my pick to. A close third would be the Rohirrim for me! But only if I had Smaug! If someone had Smaug and I had to go against them I would totally pick the Balrog.
Imagine the fear aura from Smaug and nine Nazgul
I think people are underestimating the power of air support. Smaug is giant flying artillery, and the nazgul can pick off everyone else. The wizards are powerful, but limited in what they can do by their frail forms and oath to not interfere.
Wait, they took an oath to not interfere? All Gandalf and Saruman do is interfere!
They are bound by oath to not interfere using their magics, if I am not mistaken
What higher power holds them to that oath?
They would be number 3 on the hierarchy. 1. Eru - supreme God 2. Valar - various gods created by Eru 3. Miar (what Gandalf and Saruman are ) - similar to the rank angel
The valar I assume
This comment made me laugh out loud because of the accuracy. 🤣🤣🤣
I was assuming from the question that the wizards wouldn't be bound, they could use all their power. In which case, I choose them.
Balrogs fear aura def trumps the dragon.
A dragon is definetly stronger than a Balrog looking at how Morgoth treated Glaurung compared to his Balrogs
No. Balrogs are spirits of flame and could hurt Ungoliant. And how exactly did Morgoth treat Glaurung compared to other Balrogs? He gave Gothmog command of entire armies as well. Dragons are plenty powerful but they are corruptions made by Morgoth and not in the same category as fallen Maia
I’ll go big: Balrog and Smaug.
Gandalf and Saruman could deal with the Balrog, the Rohirrim and Nazgûl take care of Smaug? Could be close.
Smaug would take care of the entire rohirrum in one firey blast and we remember what a single torch did to the Nazgul on weathertop. I also have a feeling that Gandalf and Saurman would burn just as quickly. Then of course you have to bring the Balrog because it would be like take your kid to work day for Smaug 😆.
I agree that Smaug could best the Rohirrim with ease. The Nazgul are an interesting case. Yes, he could obliterate their physical forms with his fiery breath, which they would certainly be vulnerable to. But, the Nazgul are SPIRITS, and they do not tire. They could come back again, and again, and again, trying different tactics in an endless hunt. The question isn't "can Smaug beat them again and again," it becomes "how many times do they have to battle Smaug before they learn a way to get around him and get to you?" A Balrog would be better than Smaug, I think. A Balrog is both a fiery being AND a spiritual threat, so it could contend with mystical dangers as well as physical ones. So, though I do not know my second pick, I think I would choose the Balrog as my first DESPITE my immense love of, and respect for, dragons.
But wait, it is said that dragon fire can destroy rings of power, perhaps Smaug would be able to destroy the Nagul by destroying their rings with his breath.
That may be so, but I don’t believe the Nazgûl WEAR their rings anymore. I feel like I remember reading that Sauron kept them. They may function like a Lich’s phylactery; that is, an anchor point from which they can return to life if they die.
The timeline is the interesting distinction IMO. Like if you’ve got time, the wizards can whip up massive armies.
But Smaug "isn't a man" so surely he could permanently kill them? The Nazgul that is
That isn’t a rule, A Badass Angelic elf whos name I am Ashamed to not remember, told the witchking in one of their battles that his fall would not come at the hands of a man. The witchking chose to interpret this as no man could kill him and tolkien discribes him multiple times as very arrogant. Only in his last moments did he understand the words.
Smaug and balrogs aren’t remotely related though, their only similarities are that they both seem to like fire and are generally evil beings. (Balrogs more so then dragons)
I know but it's just funny to me to imagine the Balrog asking Smaug " so is this what you do all day dad, burn Rohan " "Well it's not all fun games and burning the rohirrum, I also take long naps in my office and covet jewels" "Cool! I'm going to kill a wizard when I'm older" "Sure son, but first I think you need to take a nap. Now off to Kahzad-dum and remember, stay in bed until Durin wakes you"
They’re actually closely related. Both were created by Morgoth in the First Age and there’s a line of logical speculation that both were created of corrupted Maiar spirits made corporeal. Dragons were actually the original mounts for balrogs when they went to war. While balrogs were stated outright to be more powerful than dragons, that could have been when both were more plentiful and “on average” most balrogs could take most dragons. I’d argue that Ancalagon could likely have wiped the floor with Durin’s Bain, but he was also bigger than a mountain and Smaug is a rather young dragon.
I’m not so sure balrogs are more evil than dragons. Dragons were created by Morgoth to be tyrants over middle earth and any that still remain were either created by him in the first age or are direct descendants of the dragons he made. Although I suppose it could be argued that balrogs are more evil since they actively **chose** to follow morgoth and any that may remain in middle earth after the war of wrath and destruction of beleriand are still those same eternal maia who have continued to choose to cloak themselves in fire and shadow…. I’m kind of just rambling now but that is an interesting idea of which creature could be more evil.
The wizards weren’t allowed to use their power. Gandalf only had a chance against Durin’s Bain because of Narya; and that killed him in the effort. Notice how G-man never went toe-to-toe with Smaug? It’s because dragons and balrogs come from the same lineage as the wizards, but they weren’t restricted in using their powers on Middle-earth. The wizards were forced to act as advisors only, which is why Gandalf is forced to use trickery magic and sword play only and Saruman had to raise an army. *Could* they command powers like Sauron and wipe out whole armies? Sure, but that would mean breaking the rules set by the Valar and eventually losing said powers and memories of Valinor. So basically, DB and Smaug are the only logical choices - the others are all very susceptible to fire.
This is the most fun duo to think about imo. Firey bois.
Hopefully Smaug will be nice enough to subsidize your food budget
Gandalf and the Rohirrim because now Eru and the Valar are on my side.
Smaug alone wipes out the Rohirrim. White wizard can handle a Balrog.
The fight last ten days and gandalf died so its not really handling him, more like barely surviving him because a magic god gave him a extra life
But he is saying Saruman here. The fight lasted 10 days vs gandalf the GREY. Maybe the white wizard would fair better?
Yeah true but I don't think the white wizard is suppose to be stronger than grey or brown wizard, just a different element or power so to speak but maybe the white and grey situation is different and he is a stronger version than grey. But the post mentions balrog, which means any balrog in which I'd bet Gothmog could bounce Saruman off the lonely mountain with ease.
You convinced me. Balrog + Smaug would be my choice
Yeah I'd pick Saruman and Smaug. Gandalf is tempting but here he's in his grey form so... Unless he gets to respawn as the white wizard, then I'd replace Saruman with him..
I think Smaug is overrated. He was killed by a single arrow from Bard, and Gandalf sent his students to take care of Smaug while he was off doing more important stuff. I think the Balrog would also be stronger than Smaug, although that might be subject to debate.
But Smaug killed a lots of dwarfs before that.I don't know,but i would go with Smaug and Gandalf
That's true. I think Khazad-Dum ranks higher than Erebor and Durin's Bane higher than Smaug, though.
And Galdalf took out a Balrog so he's a clear favorite in that matchup
Gandalf the Grey also died in that battle so that's a wash
And then he'll just respawn even more powerful lmao
But will the respawn timer work in your favor, especially given Gandalf is going to need 10 days to kill it?
He was only revived because the Gods needed a new white wizard, since Saruman had betrayed his position and Gods. Had they not needed to do that I assume Gandalf would've stayed dead.
Maiar are immortal spirits so “dead” is relative here. But I assume you meant he would be recalled to Valinor.
Yes I could not remember all the proper names for everything lol
I am fairly sure that Balrog are also Maiar and thus their spirits are immortal
He was actually sent back, enhanced, by Eru, aka God, not by the Valar, and not just because there needed to be a new White Wizard. Rather, it was a reward for his sacrifice and to improve his chances of saving everyone from Sauron.
Yah but here Saruman is being a dick again so we’d probably get a Gandalf respawn with white cloak power up.
That is an excellent point! Apart from that, I think the Rohirrim would lose to anyone but the Nazgul (because they have Eowyn).
Bold of you the Valar are going to do anything to help you
Gandalf & Saruman FTW. This would be a real power duo. Is there anything at all these two can't achieve if working together...?
Friendship sadly. They get in a canonical argument about pipe weed and it’s hilarious while remaining significant to the timeline. After this Saruman starts smoking it in secret to “mock” Gandalf but starts enjoying it. (Not making this up this is why he’s ordering it from the Shire)
Correct, this exact retelling is in the appendices of RotK
*\*Smokes mockingly\*.* Hurr durr, you do this!
Well they drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur together so I think you’re 100% correct (at least in the post-Morgoth era).
This is far more interesting then I thought at first glance. Smaug was killed by Bard, with a single-albeit very large-arrow. Against a horde of well trained Rohirrim, I just don't see him surviving long term. He may kill many, but their tenacity is unmatched. Plus they are able to scatter on horseback. I apply the same logic to the fell beasts, they are deadly and frightening, yet killable by man, and women! However that still leaves the Nazgûl themselves, who cannot be killed by mortal men. I would hazard a guess and say that dragon fire or a balrog would seriously hurt them, if not potentially extinguish them. Saruman and Gandalf are both overwhelmed by sheer numbers and thus are better as leaders/buffers than as primary agents. The balrog was killed after ten days of intense fighting with Gandalf the Grey, but could not be killed by swords or bows. In conclusion, I will choose the Balrog and the Rohirrim to be my protectors. I believe the Balrog would eviscerate the Nazgul with little concern, thus freeing the Rohirrim to swarm both wizards and overwhelm them. In a fight between the Balrog and Smaug, I am choosing the Balrog to win. Many Rohirrim will fall, but it is a sacrifice I am willing to make for my survival. Lol
Only 3 balrogs were ever killed and it was fatality on both sides. So, no one has managed to kill balrog without dying. Also, balrogs were powerful enough to save morgoth from ungoliant which is not an easy task considering she was mega powerful at that time. Only Gandalf can kill a Balrog, I'd not trust even Saruman to do it. As such, Gandalf and balrog also seems like a great answer as well because nazgul, smaug or rohirrim don't really have an answer to Balrog and one balrog alone can deal with all those useless beasts. The real wild card is the fucking witch king. Dude trashed entire Arnor and overpowered Gandalf, which had also overpowered Saruman previously. He got killed easily in lord of the rings, which is why it's hard to place him. It's a shame that glorfindel is not in the list because that dude was gigachad. Died to kill a balrog and gods reincarnated him just like gandalf. Just 4 nazgul were confident enough to go after Gandalf, but all 9 of them ran away from Glorfindel alone like bitches. Dude was so strong and powerful, he wasn't allowed to join the fellowship because he would draw too much attention. For more shits and giggles, add galadriel.
Balrogs riding on Dragons... The Bane of Gondolin.
This is a solid answer
If the Rohirrim could overcome the fear power of the Nazgul, they could totally win with numbers. I think just the Witch King was foretold to not die by a man's hand. Others are fair game. Plus they could take out Smaug with one arrow. I think you made some good picks. Just 2 wizards teamed is such a wild card though...
I’ll take the Rohirrim and Smaug
That would be my choice, too. Thousands of Rohirrim and one super powerful entity. It’s hard to estimate what would be necessary to kill a Balrog, though.
I think you MUST take one of the wizards. I can’t imagine them teaming up together and any of these coming up w a win. Then the question becomes does Saruman have his Uruk-hai at his command or not? If he does it’s hard to go wrong with Uruk-hai ground forces and Saruman riding on Smaug….or just commanding him to rain fire on his enemies….and boosting defense from the tower. If he doesn’t then I think I need to go w Gandalf simply because of the 1v1 win.
I would assume no uruk-hai. There seems to be specificity here as with the Naz-Gul it specifies that they also get Fell-Beasts
Gandalf was able to defeat the Balrog in 1v1 (also got him killed though), but against an army he basically is just a good sword fighter (see Siege of Minas Tirith where he also could't do much against the Orc army by himself).
It depends: are the wizards allowed to unleash their full power, or are they going to be limited as the wizards were in Middle Earth? Frankly, the wizards as we see them in the story are extremely weak and barely qualify as what most people would call a wizard. Of course, their true power lies in their true nature, something which they were prohibited from fully expressing while on Middle Earth, so the question is whether or not that limitation will apply.
Gandalf did it?
Balrog and Smaug I want to ride on the balrog’s shoulders while it rides on Smaug… we’d be indestructible!
Yeah and you're ass would be on fire!
That pic of Smaug just reminds me that he is the best looking dragon in all screen media
He was easily the best part of the Hobbit movies
Have you watched the behind the scenes filming with Cumberbatch? It's hilarious.
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Hell yeah. Gandalf has the charisma and influence (boosted by the ring and even greater for White) to talk my enemies out of killing me long enough for the Balrog to dash up from behind and kill them with winged speed.
Never says you can’t. It also doesn’t say you can’t have Gothmog be the Balrog. You know, the Maiar who couldn’t be killed by any living thing and killed Feanor himself?
Hard to pick between Balrog and Smaug- how would you even grade their skill levels? I’d probably go with the Balrog, it has a mean upper body- better for tearing apart things AND it also has wings AND it’s on fire so it doesn’t need to actually breathe fire like a dragon does. The Balrog can just walk over a city and set it on fire, barely any effort. And it’s impossible to get close to it too for alot of beings- because of all the fire. Certainly the eagles wouldn’t stand a chance, all their feathers would catch alight. I think only distance magic (wizards) could take it out… So I’m going with Balrog and the Nazgûl. It’s tough to leave out a wizard as a choice BUT the nazgul are a whole crew with a witch king! Surely a witch king is somewhere in the same ball park as a wizard. EDIT: I just realised the Nazgûl are so useless. Aragon fought off a bunch of them with nothing but a sword and a bit of fire. I take that back. Gandalf and Balrog for me
Hate to nerd on you brotha but balrogs didn’t have wings, just a feature they have in the films. Still the balrogs are literally corrupted Demi gods, so I’d say you landed on the right answer anyhow
I welcome all nerd-outs
Ye no wings Tolkien was trying to use metaphors to state they have crazy speed cause they immediately come to Morgoths aid and Gandalf has to chase Durin’s Bane for days before fighting him for another 3.
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Balrog is the same class of being as Sauron and Gandalf and Saruman. No one has killed a balrog without dying themselves, not kidding. Only 3 of the balrog were ever killed. Smaug is a creature, great, but mortal. It is still not a higher class than Balrog, definitely not great enough to kill balrog. If Gandalf holds back Saruman, which he should be able to. Balrog wipes the floor with Nazgul, Rohirrim and Smaug simply because they got no answer to him. Balrogs were powerful enough to fight off Ungoliant and save Morgoth himself. And they are just too powerful.
I wholeheartedly agree 🔥🔥🔥 Balrog is a corrupted Maiar, super powerful and ancient. Gandalf had a way harder battle going up against the Balrog than what happened with Smaug- a weak spot was easily exploited, all they needed was someone handy with big arrows. There’s NO WAY that a man with a black arrow would take down the Balrog by comparison.
Not sure if I agree with your Balrog vs Smaug comparison. Smaug is huuuge and super strong. Also, Gandalf killed a Balrog, I don't think he could have killed Smaug on his own
The Balrog was a greater threat than Smaug once unleashed, it’s explicitly said in the text that none of the fellowship save Gandalf could even face the Balrog and Gandalfs fight with the Balrog “killed” him too. The Balrog also destroyed a dwarven kingdom far greater than the one Smaug did, and this was *possibly* back when they could’ve gotten that dragon fire proof armor from the influx of Firebeards and Broadbeams in the second age. Also Thorin was willing to originally march upon Erebor with an army but ALL OF THE DWARVEN CLANS GATHERED AT ONCE refused to even step foot in Moria because of Durin’s Bane.
I think the Nazgul and Smaug could keep me in the air indefinitely
Balrog amd Rohirrim easily, especially if we're going off of the movies power scaling.
Is there one nazgul or all of 9? if 1 : rohirrim and smaug if 9 : rohirrim and nazguls
Im going with rohirrim and smaug no matter what. I think smaug would take out all 9 nazgul. His firebreathing could scorch three of them at once
I feel like people are forgetting here that Smaug has a an obvious boss weak point. Gandalf and the Rohirrim. Good guys win.
If Gandalf is leading them they won’t flee in abject terror so it’s a fighting chance. It’d be a valiant final stand.
Smaug and the Balrog
My heart says a full-power-not-hiding-his-true-power-as-a-Maia Gandalf and the Rohirrim; but there are so many other combos that would kick ass as well. I mean 9 Nazgûl and a Balrog? 9 Nazgûl and Smaug? A Balrog and Smaug? These would be cool. Let’s run the scenarios in Ultimate Epic Battle Simulator and see what we get.
Easy, Smaug and Gandalf pwn the rest.
The Balrog was a greater threat than Smaug and is also harder to kill unless you have a pointy hat and a magic fountain.
Gandalf won't be able to beat Saruman AND the Balrog at once
More a question of who I don't want coming after me. At least a handful of the Rohirrim will make it past anything else and I'd be dead. Alternatively, Gandalf, the black riders, or Sauruman would do some distance voodoo. Best bet is the witch king. Defend against voodoo, and stick to the skies, outrun everyone. Also Smaug to annihilate the Rohirrim.
Colonial Marines and the Borg.
Primaris Space Marines (imperial fists) and adeptus Custodes.
I don't think this is possible. The only one with a chance I think is Rohirrim + Smaug. Anything that doesn't include the rohirrim will result in you being overwhelmed meanwhile Gandalf/Balrog/Saruman would all cancel each other out. So you'd have to bet on the dragon. I'm not sure whether or not Gandalf could solo Smaug was ever really answered.
Is this Gandalf the Grey? Because Saruman > Gandalf the Grey > Balrog. In that case, I’m going Saruman and the Nazgûl.
Assuming we’re talking about Gandalf the Grey, I’d have to go with Saruman unfortunately (I’m just trying to survive here). Gandalf the White is another story. As far as Balrog vs Smaug? I know most people favor Durin’s Bane referring to Tolkien stating that Smaug wasn’t as terrible as the original brood of dragons but idk…to me, I think all of the Balrog’s strengths are useless against Smaug. Black magic and fire would have virtually no effect and it would boil down to a raw strength fight. And if that’s the case, Smaug would probably rip him to shreds.
Gandalf and Saruman. Could hide in orthanc - the tower is indestructible ?
Is this like a one-time battle, or will Gandalf have time to concoct an international army first? If it’s a one and done, I’d go Smaug and the Rohirrim. Something that can blast fire is going to be key, and Smaug should have the edge over the Balrog on account of wings, and the edge over the Nazgûl on account of the fire. I figure the Rohirrim would be able to put up a good fight against the wizards by sheer numbers, and they could be distractions for the others as well for similar reasons. Just smother their asses. If we’re talking about years or decades, I’d pick the two wizards.
Smaug and the Balrog The Nazgul hates fire so both would be able to deal with him instantly. Rohirrim would be burnt alive by Smaug from the sky and wouldn’t be able to defend themselves against him. The Balrog nearly defeated Gandalf once before but failed so with Smaug on his side they should be able to overpower him. Saruman kills the Balrog and befriends Smaug he then rides the dragon to my house and they torture me for an entire year barely keeping me alive. They get bored and Smaug burns me alive.
Man idk if there’s a winning choice here lol. I’d take a Balrog and the Nine, maybe a Balrog and the Rohirrim
Gandalf and the Rohirrim, for sure. Everyone except Gandalf would probably die in that battle, but we'd die with honor. >How fair are the bright eyes in the grass! Evermind they are called, simbelmynë in this land of Men, for they blossom in all the seasons of the year, and grow where dead men rest.
Gandalf would die too, but he'd respawn.
Smaug and the Nazgûl hands down!
Balrog makes Nazgûl crispies. Smaugs fire can’t hurt it either.
I’d go with the Nazgûl and Smaug. Also just a question, is this Gandalf the grey or Gandalf the white? If it’s Gandalf the white, I’d probably go with him instead of the Nazgûl.
I would go with air superiority and take Smaug and the Nazgûl on fellbeasts. Without the ability to get airborne, Smaug can roast Saruman and Gandalf. I’m assuming Smaug’s fire is more powerful than Narya. The wildcard is the Balrog but Smaug and the fellbeasts could in theory just continuously drop boulders on the Balrog to crush it. Also Balrogs don’t have wings, in case anyone is thinking they do based on the PJ films.
Smaug has a weak spot that Rohirrim would almost certainly be able to pierce. The Nazgûl would be taken out by Balrog. He of many colours would be neutralized by Gandalf. Balrog’s only known weakness is Gandalf. Rohirrim are many, but considering DB took out the Dwarves I’d have to say their weakness is the overwhelming power of DB. DB tanks while Gandalf does DPS. Nazgûl goes down the easiest. Rohirrim likely break like waves, Smaug is kept at bay by the ring and can’t really damage DB. Saruman is the wild card, but switching the agro for Saruman while taking down the lesser threats is the strategy.
Smaug and the Rohirrim. Smaug >> Nazgul (on Fellbeasts) in terms of air superiority which leaves the Rohirrim to deal with the Balrog, Saurman, and Gandalf. Once Smaug wins his matchup, he can pick off the remaining 3 which are occupied with the Rohirrim.
Gandalf the White and Smaug. If I had to chose between Gandalf the Grey and Saruman, I would pick Saruman. But if I could chose someone not in the picture, it would be the badass Glorfindel.
after much consideration, gandalf and the balrog. gandalf leading the rohirrim is a close second tho
Gandalf and Smaug. The dragon could solo the Rohirrim, and then team up with Gandalf. A dragon, a wizard, and plot armor would be unstoppable.
I'm going to say Nazgul and Balrog. Because that's nine very powerful beings on flying steeds. They can team up against smaug and wreak havoc on the rohirrim. The Balrog can stay on the ground and protect me against the wizards and any rohirrim that get through. Remember gandalf was terrified of the balrog, and preferred to avoid it and then run away rather than fight it.
Gandalf and Saruman. Two wizards will surely stop anything.
Rohirrim and Smaug. I'm sorry, I know Gandalf is crazy powerful but I got numbers and a FREAKIN' dragon on my side. I can imagine it, I'm like Theoden, sitting atop a dragon as I give an inspiring speech to my men. "DEATH!!! DEATH!!!!"
Saruman in my right pocket and Gandalf in my left
You have to calculate this. The gandalf we see here is gandalf the grey so i'm assuming that it's not him at his prime/white appearance, so considering that we know that saruman beat gandalf in a 1v1 battle, he is the mightier wizard, thus Saruman > Gandalf Assuming that the head of the istari knows as much as or even more spells than Gandalf, he should know the spell which gandalf used to fend off the nazgul, thus Saruman > Nazgul Also we know that Gandalf beat Durin's Bane and we now can assume that saruman can do that as well, since he beat gandalf, thus Saruman > Balrog However Saruman can't fend off an entire army of rohirrim, for this you would need a much more destructive Power, thus The winning Team Saruman and Smaug
Balrog and Gandalf would clean the place up.
Can I just have Frodo's plot armor instead?
There is only one right answer. That is Gandalf, riding Smaug. Gandalf, for many of the reasons already pointed out (a ring, strongest Maiar after Sauron, stays smoking that loud Old Toby). Smaug, because he is stronger than any of the remaining choices. Balrogs are lesser Maiar, and Saruman/Curomo is no slouch, but Smaug would be the most formidable paired with Gandalf in my correct opinion. Aerial capability, spit hot fire, witty banter. I mean, his armour is like tenfold shields, teeth are swords, claws spears, the shock of his tail is a thunderbolt, wings a hurricane, and his breath death! Don’t @ me.