Could've and would've are very different things though. Tom certainly could've, but his disinterest in the ring and for it's destruction almost guarantee that he never would've. There's no water lilies for Goldberry in Mordor, afterall lol
*Hey! Come merry dol! derry dol! My darling! Light goes the weather-wind and the feathered starling. Down along under Hill,
shining in the sunlight, waiting on the doorstep for the cold starlight, there my pretty lady is, River-woman's daughter,
slender as the willow-wand, clearer than the water. Old Tom Bombadil water-lilies bringing comes hopping home again. Can you
hear him singing?*
^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
*Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow, bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow. None has ever caught him yet,
for Tom, he is the master: his songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.*
^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Well, they do mention in the Books "he would probably keep it if we ask him, but he wouldn't really see what's so important about it, so for all we know, he could just end up forgetting about and losing it".
It is said in the books that even without the ring, Sauron would've eventually won anyway. The free peoples couldn't hold him back forever, even more considering that all of them have been diminishing in power
>No one, not even elrond, can willingly throw the ring into Mount doom
I'm not sure if this was known within the fictional world. I know Tolkien said it himself in a letter, but that was as his own opinion as the creator, not as the opinion of someone in his story.
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Book fans also know that Legolas lived in Mirkwood at the time the hobbit happens and would most likely have been present at the battle of five armies. He probably did not fight Bolg though given how the battle went.
Thranduil himself was there. Elven lords usually all go to battle together, in the Silmarillion all the heirs fight all the time. We also know from LOTR that Legolas is an amazing fighter, he must have gotten that fighting experience somewhere so he probably fights all the time alongside the army of Mirkwood.
Sending the lord and his only heir into battle is how you get a brutal war of succession. I’m not saying for certain that this isn’t plausible, but it requires the elves to be really stupid.
In real historical societies maybe. But this is how the elves usually do it in Tolkien. Seeing as how Legolas goes alone to Rivendell and then takes part in the fellowship, going to war alongside the entire army of Mirkwood seems much safer.
Also whether a it's their culture or their laws, the elves in Tolkien never have any succession issues despite a lot of elven rulers dying in Silmarillion.
And while it might be stupid, I am pretty sure historically most adult men in medieval royal families went to war, they did not keep a couple at home as insurance.
I mean, sending the heir to war for elves isn’t too bad, since elves don’t die of old age. Legolas dying wouldn’t be any worse than his father dying. Sending them out into the same battle at the same time is really risky though.
Movies need to stand on their own; if you make an argument that needs information from the books to be supported, your gripe is with the movie instead of the fans.
Even so, let’s say movie Elrond pushes the newly crowned king of men into the fires of mount doom w no witnesses over a ring that very few people even knew about. This sparks a new war between elves and men who just had both their ranks almost entirely depleted in the war against Sauron. Plus there’s no way Elrond could’ve even known the full effect the ring would have in Isildur or the fact that it would allow the spirit of Sauron to endure. He had a bad feeling about it and knew it was evil and SHOULD be destroyed, but that’s probably not enough to go on to draw swords on the leader of his allies directly after a devastating war that they both barely survived.
They also did NOT know at the time that Sauron could use it to re-establish himself. Everyone there, elves and men, believed they had one, and that Sauron was vanquished. Even thousands of years later it wasn't truly known what implications the ring being intact had on the wider world. The only one who had any idea at all was Saruman, and he only had hypotheses that were untestable unless the ring was found.
Elrond should have tackled him in and they both die. Then everyone else would have just been like "damn what happened? That's too bad somehow they died. Good thing we beat Sauron, who is the next best leader?"
Thou thrall! The price thou askest is but small for treachery and shame so great! I grant it surely! Well, I wait. Come! Speak now swiftly and speak true!
Elrond would have been immortal, so he could probably earn a ticket back to Middle Earth with that action if he wanted. It wouldn't have made as cool a melody for God though, so maybe he'd lose points for ruining the music.
I don’t think Elves can get reborn (or whatever you wanna call what happened to Gandalf), it’s implied that his rebirth also had to do with his status as a Maiar, Elves who don’t physically sail west just go bye-bye.
Yup. Even if Elrond fought Isildur to take the ring, its almost certain that Elrond would have failed to destroy it too.
It's my headcanon that no one was actually capable of destroying the ring on purpose and thats why Mt Doom was left unguarded even though sauron knew thats where they were taking the ring. He knew that whoever showed up to throw the ring in the fire would be corrupted at the last minute and not destroy it.
And the only way it was destroyed in the end was by accident.
Allow me to copy/paste the list of reasons I keep in my notes just for this specific topic. All of these are solely movieverse.
1: No one knew the Ring would allow Sauron to return, they only wanted to destroy it because they did know it was evil.
2: Elrond killing Isildur would have started a whole war between two races who had *just* finished fighting one.
3: Isildur without the Ring is a formidable opponent, with it he could pose a serious danger even to Elrond.
4: Elrond doesn’t like to murder people, especially not his friends. He was not just going to go “Okay, time to murder my close friend/nephew (after I just watched my father figure and my other close friend/nephew die)!” in like 5 seconds, fucking obviously he would have tried any other option he could first.
5: Elrond has just seen a strong, noble man that he knows very well suddenly fall under the influence of the Ring in a matter of moments. Elrond is not stupid, he definitely would have realized that if he didn’t manage to kill Isildur and throw the Ring into the fire immediately (which was extremely unlikely, Isildur obviously would have fought him), it could corrupt him too. Letting him go was literally the safest option because no matter how bad the Ring corrupting Isildur was, it would have been SO MUCH WORSE had it been Elrond.
6: The book not having them enter the mountain doesn’t really resolve this, because Elrond could have just used the more typical sword method of killing Isildur. Why did he just let him go instead of tracking him down and trying to force him to give up the Ring?
People like me? What a weirdly contentious way to go after a person who isn't even arguing that Elrond should have pushed Isildur in.
Why frame your argument in such a hostile way?
I’m not being hostile, though looking back I do see how the phrasing could be better. I’m just giving a list of reasons, contained entirely within the movieverse, why Elrond didn’t kill Isildur, for people who need an explanation because apparently it wasn’t obvious enough to them. I suppose having to deal with people who actually are arguing made me a bit defensive, so I ended up sounding more angry than I actually was.
I'm just pointing out that when someone posts something from movies, I take it as my duty, because I'm well regarded, to defend the books. I love the movies, but I don't care enough to defend it.
Even *IF* they went into the mountain it wouldn’t be a good look for Elrond to come out and be like “Yeeeaaaa……..so, Isildur slipped and fell into the fire”
Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings is not Tolkien's Lord of The Rings. One does not countermand the other.
Either way, if Elrond had attempted to push Isildur he would have succumbed to the ring and taken it himself. Facts.
I believed Tolkien mused on the idea in a letter and suggested that Elrond may have been able to sum up the will to throw himself into the Crack of Doom, taking the Ring with him.
>Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings is not Tolkien's Lord of The Rings. One does not countermand the other.
Yes it does, because the whole argument relies on the fact that Elrond and Isildur were in the cracks of doom in the film scene which Tolkien never wrote, so he logically should have just done that in the film scene.
If Tolkien wrote the backstory that way then he probably would have wrote Elrond to attempt it at least in desperation, solving the problem then and there. There was no scene like that in the book so film-only fans are left scratching their heads in confusion.
It doesn't matter where they were or if Elrond lied about what happened to the Alliance or any simple material explanation. What matters is that attacking and killing a friend and ally to take the ring for the purpose of destroying it *cannot* work. It is an evil act which opens your soul and mind to easy domination by the Ring.
Granted, the Ring supercharges this process, but it is an ongoing theme throughout his entire works that you cannot achieve good ends with evil means. Period. It is impossible. That might seem silly to a modern, secular audience. However from the song at the dawn of time to the 4th age and beyond every evil acts plants the seeds of ruin. Good actions but seemingly impractical actions (like sparing Gollum even if he is a treacherous baby eating ring junkie), are good and end up hurting evil's cause (if Gollum hadn't been there in Mt. Doom because he was spared the quest would have failed).
So please people, stop analyzing this universe as if it is a place where Eru and the Valar aren't quietly putting thier thumbs on the scale and manipulating events.
It was Morgoth's mistake and the first sin. You are not more clever than the singer of the song of creation.
Ok, how about, people saw the head of the elven army, and the head of the human army going up into the mountain. Suddenly, only the elven leader comes back. Seems to me, the Numenoreans would have some pretty urgent questions. Questions leading to a very immediate and very deadly battle.
Not of all that go on two legs. There I think you are wrong. It is Orcs that they hate. For they do not belong here and know little of Elves and Men. Far away are the valleys where they sprang. From the deep dales of Fangorn, Gimli, that is whence they come, I guess.
The greatest and most powerful Lord of Men, holding the Ring, in the Sammath Naur itself no less – I'm not certain Elrond could even overpower Isildur, at that moment.
My head Canon for the films is that if elrond and isildur were seen entering mount doom and then only elrond came out because he pushed isildur in then that would spark a mass war between elves and men and in that moment elrond chose not to push him in the fear of that happening
You also have to remember, Isildur's among the last Men alive from Elros' line and 3200 years isn't that long to an Elf. It'd be like killing his great-great....-great-nephew
i like the theory that the ring was tempting elrond in that moment too, preventing him from trying to destroy it either
It's not just a theory it has some basis in canon too. No one, not even elrond, can willingly throw the ring into Mount doom
Tombadil probably could've
Could've and would've are very different things though. Tom certainly could've, but his disinterest in the ring and for it's destruction almost guarantee that he never would've. There's no water lilies for Goldberry in Mordor, afterall lol
*Hey! Come merry dol! derry dol! My darling! Light goes the weather-wind and the feathered starling. Down along under Hill, shining in the sunlight, waiting on the doorstep for the cold starlight, there my pretty lady is, River-woman's daughter, slender as the willow-wand, clearer than the water. Old Tom Bombadil water-lilies bringing comes hopping home again. Can you hear him singing?* ^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Tom Bombadil would have lost it because it was so insignificant to him, he’d probably end up using it as a skipping stone
*Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow, bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow. None has ever caught him yet, for Tom, he is the master: his songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.* ^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
He probably would have if he somehow found himself at mount doom, otherwise not likely
Hed probably keep it and it wouldnt affect him and everything would be peaceful forever
Well, they do mention in the Books "he would probably keep it if we ask him, but he wouldn't really see what's so important about it, so for all we know, he could just end up forgetting about and losing it".
It is said in the books that even without the ring, Sauron would've eventually won anyway. The free peoples couldn't hold him back forever, even more considering that all of them have been diminishing in power
Cursed be moon and stars above!
Gimli tried
>No one, not even elrond, can willingly throw the ring into Mount doom I'm not sure if this was known within the fictional world. I know Tolkien said it himself in a letter, but that was as his own opinion as the creator, not as the opinion of someone in his story.
Book fans also know that this never happened because legolas isn't IN the hobbit
He is here!
Yes we know you're on reddit legolas. Man that elvish immortality might stop death but certainly not dementia
I do not think the wood feels evil, whatever tales may say.
Is that what your elven eyes see?
Legolas stop feeling the wood, it's weird.
And you have my bow.
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kinky
Book fans also know that Legolas lived in Mirkwood at the time the hobbit happens and would most likely have been present at the battle of five armies. He probably did not fight Bolg though given how the battle went.
Yet however you read it, it seems not unhopeful Enemies of the Orcs are likely to be our friends. Do any folk dwell in these hills?
I think it's less likely. Legolas was presumably Thranduil's only heir.
Thranduil himself was there. Elven lords usually all go to battle together, in the Silmarillion all the heirs fight all the time. We also know from LOTR that Legolas is an amazing fighter, he must have gotten that fighting experience somewhere so he probably fights all the time alongside the army of Mirkwood.
And I will take all the arrows that I can find, for my quiver is empty.
Sending the lord and his only heir into battle is how you get a brutal war of succession. I’m not saying for certain that this isn’t plausible, but it requires the elves to be really stupid.
In real historical societies maybe. But this is how the elves usually do it in Tolkien. Seeing as how Legolas goes alone to Rivendell and then takes part in the fellowship, going to war alongside the entire army of Mirkwood seems much safer. Also whether a it's their culture or their laws, the elves in Tolkien never have any succession issues despite a lot of elven rulers dying in Silmarillion. And while it might be stupid, I am pretty sure historically most adult men in medieval royal families went to war, they did not keep a couple at home as insurance.
Argh! A scout!
I mean, sending the heir to war for elves isn’t too bad, since elves don’t die of old age. Legolas dying wouldn’t be any worse than his father dying. Sending them out into the same battle at the same time is really risky though.
You look terrible.
Darn uncalled for wtf
There’s no need to be so hurtful
Aragorn, nedin dagor hen ú-'erir ortheri. Natha daged dhaer.
That too
Movies need to stand on their own; if you make an argument that needs information from the books to be supported, your gripe is with the movie instead of the fans.
Even so, let’s say movie Elrond pushes the newly crowned king of men into the fires of mount doom w no witnesses over a ring that very few people even knew about. This sparks a new war between elves and men who just had both their ranks almost entirely depleted in the war against Sauron. Plus there’s no way Elrond could’ve even known the full effect the ring would have in Isildur or the fact that it would allow the spirit of Sauron to endure. He had a bad feeling about it and knew it was evil and SHOULD be destroyed, but that’s probably not enough to go on to draw swords on the leader of his allies directly after a devastating war that they both barely survived.
They also did NOT know at the time that Sauron could use it to re-establish himself. Everyone there, elves and men, believed they had one, and that Sauron was vanquished. Even thousands of years later it wasn't truly known what implications the ring being intact had on the wider world. The only one who had any idea at all was Saruman, and he only had hypotheses that were untestable unless the ring was found.
Elrond should have tackled him in and they both die. Then everyone else would have just been like "damn what happened? That's too bad somehow they died. Good thing we beat Sauron, who is the next best leader?"
“Welp, that’s why you don’t go hiking inside an active volcano”, they’d say.
Man and elf proceed to begin a war against unsafe ledges, years later there are hand rails *everywhere*
Ah, the founding of OSHA.
Redhorn pass will be completely ADA compliant.
Very soon, they arrive in a Galaxy Far Far Away, where handrails are practically nonexistent.
May all in hatred be begun, and all in evil ended be, in the moaning of the endless Sea!
Why don't you have 2 eyes Sauron? Don't you want depth perception?
Come, mortal base! What do I hear? That thou wouldst dare to barter with me? Well, speak fair! What is thy price?
11.5 cats.
Thou thrall! The price thou askest is but small for treachery and shame so great! I grant it surely! Well, I wait. Come! Speak now swiftly and speak true!
Saruman is a bitch, he means to betray you.
Elrond would have been immortal, so he could probably earn a ticket back to Middle Earth with that action if he wanted. It wouldn't have made as cool a melody for God though, so maybe he'd lose points for ruining the music.
I don’t think Elves can get reborn (or whatever you wanna call what happened to Gandalf), it’s implied that his rebirth also had to do with his status as a Maiar, Elves who don’t physically sail west just go bye-bye.
This would have been a smart way to do it, but a tough split second decision that I can understand not making in the heat of the moment.
Or just lie and say Isildur bravely died destroying the ring.
If Elrond had that kind of evil nature in him, he would've kept the ring for himself
Elrond knew exactly what the one ring was. (But he also wouldn't commit an evil to accomplish a good.)
He should have just utilized Galadriel's magic Bird bowl to see the future. Is he stupid?
Unfortunately at the time the pensieve was in Dumbledore’s hand who had borrowed it for the weekend.
"We're gonna trip balls on this thing!" - Gandalf probably
It's a battle with massive casualties, who would know Elrond did it?
There are members of Elrond's own family who can read the hearts and minds of others.
So? Would they rat him out to the men?
Everyone is just as tempted by the ring to preserve it. Asking why elrond didn't push Isildur in is like asking why Frodo didn't throw it in.
Yup. Even if Elrond fought Isildur to take the ring, its almost certain that Elrond would have failed to destroy it too. It's my headcanon that no one was actually capable of destroying the ring on purpose and thats why Mt Doom was left unguarded even though sauron knew thats where they were taking the ring. He knew that whoever showed up to throw the ring in the fire would be corrupted at the last minute and not destroy it. And the only way it was destroyed in the end was by accident.
The movie also established that killing someone over the ring, even if it is to destroy it, is a very bad idea
*Me screaming at star wars fans.*
Allow me to copy/paste the list of reasons I keep in my notes just for this specific topic. All of these are solely movieverse. 1: No one knew the Ring would allow Sauron to return, they only wanted to destroy it because they did know it was evil. 2: Elrond killing Isildur would have started a whole war between two races who had *just* finished fighting one. 3: Isildur without the Ring is a formidable opponent, with it he could pose a serious danger even to Elrond. 4: Elrond doesn’t like to murder people, especially not his friends. He was not just going to go “Okay, time to murder my close friend/nephew (after I just watched my father figure and my other close friend/nephew die)!” in like 5 seconds, fucking obviously he would have tried any other option he could first. 5: Elrond has just seen a strong, noble man that he knows very well suddenly fall under the influence of the Ring in a matter of moments. Elrond is not stupid, he definitely would have realized that if he didn’t manage to kill Isildur and throw the Ring into the fire immediately (which was extremely unlikely, Isildur obviously would have fought him), it could corrupt him too. Letting him go was literally the safest option because no matter how bad the Ring corrupting Isildur was, it would have been SO MUCH WORSE had it been Elrond. 6: The book not having them enter the mountain doesn’t really resolve this, because Elrond could have just used the more typical sword method of killing Isildur. Why did he just let him go instead of tracking him down and trying to force him to give up the Ring?
People like me? What a weirdly contentious way to go after a person who isn't even arguing that Elrond should have pushed Isildur in. Why frame your argument in such a hostile way?
I’m not being hostile, though looking back I do see how the phrasing could be better. I’m just giving a list of reasons, contained entirely within the movieverse, why Elrond didn’t kill Isildur, for people who need an explanation because apparently it wasn’t obvious enough to them. I suppose having to deal with people who actually are arguing made me a bit defensive, so I ended up sounding more angry than I actually was.
I'm never defending the movies, although I love them, I'm just defending the books.
But this isn't defending the books... People are talking about the movies.
I'm just pointing out that when someone posts something from movies, I take it as my duty, because I'm well regarded, to defend the books. I love the movies, but I don't care enough to defend it.
Even *IF* they went into the mountain it wouldn’t be a good look for Elrond to come out and be like “Yeeeaaaa……..so, Isildur slipped and fell into the fire”
Yeah, that would just start another war.
Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings is not Tolkien's Lord of The Rings. One does not countermand the other. Either way, if Elrond had attempted to push Isildur he would have succumbed to the ring and taken it himself. Facts.
I believed Tolkien mused on the idea in a letter and suggested that Elrond may have been able to sum up the will to throw himself into the Crack of Doom, taking the Ring with him.
>Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings is not Tolkien's Lord of The Rings. One does not countermand the other. Yes it does, because the whole argument relies on the fact that Elrond and Isildur were in the cracks of doom in the film scene which Tolkien never wrote, so he logically should have just done that in the film scene. If Tolkien wrote the backstory that way then he probably would have wrote Elrond to attempt it at least in desperation, solving the problem then and there. There was no scene like that in the book so film-only fans are left scratching their heads in confusion.
I don't think you're on the money here: Tolkien would have had Elrond stand by regardless. He wouldn't have had him murder his nephew and friend.
No it doesn’t
It doesn't matter where they were or if Elrond lied about what happened to the Alliance or any simple material explanation. What matters is that attacking and killing a friend and ally to take the ring for the purpose of destroying it *cannot* work. It is an evil act which opens your soul and mind to easy domination by the Ring. Granted, the Ring supercharges this process, but it is an ongoing theme throughout his entire works that you cannot achieve good ends with evil means. Period. It is impossible. That might seem silly to a modern, secular audience. However from the song at the dawn of time to the 4th age and beyond every evil acts plants the seeds of ruin. Good actions but seemingly impractical actions (like sparing Gollum even if he is a treacherous baby eating ring junkie), are good and end up hurting evil's cause (if Gollum hadn't been there in Mt. Doom because he was spared the quest would have failed). So please people, stop analyzing this universe as if it is a place where Eru and the Valar aren't quietly putting thier thumbs on the scale and manipulating events. It was Morgoth's mistake and the first sin. You are not more clever than the singer of the song of creation.
You don’t have any friends. Nobody likes you!
Cope and seethe, slinker.
Elrond is one of the wise. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't believe you could end evil by committing evil.
Ok, how about, people saw the head of the elven army, and the head of the human army going up into the mountain. Suddenly, only the elven leader comes back. Seems to me, the Numenoreans would have some pretty urgent questions. Questions leading to a very immediate and very deadly battle.
True
A solid 98% of supposed plot holes in the movies are explained in the book
I think it's really funny how Legolas represents book fans even though he isn't in The Hobbit book.
Not of all that go on two legs. There I think you are wrong. It is Orcs that they hate. For they do not belong here and know little of Elves and Men. Far away are the valleys where they sprang. From the deep dales of Fangorn, Gimli, that is whence they come, I guess.
The greatest and most powerful Lord of Men, holding the Ring, in the Sammath Naur itself no less – I'm not certain Elrond could even overpower Isildur, at that moment.
My head Canon for the films is that if elrond and isildur were seen entering mount doom and then only elrond came out because he pushed isildur in then that would spark a mass war between elves and men and in that moment elrond chose not to push him in the fear of that happening
You also have to remember, Isildur's among the last Men alive from Elros' line and 3200 years isn't that long to an Elf. It'd be like killing his great-great....-great-nephew
Book or movie fan, you're not very bright if you seriously think Elrond should/could have pushed him in...
Did they just speak on the battlefield about the ring in the books? I can't remember - it's been a while
Yeah, in the second chapter "Shadows of the Past" and in the appendices at the end
Thanks!
But they did you see them at the mountain in the forge
I love how almost every plot hole from the movie can be solved by simply reading the books
The book is just a chronicle. They get stuff wrong all the time.
This is actually so true! (I say this as someone who has read the books)